The military has long been accused of discrmination against agnostics and atheists. Despite the claim that “there are no atheists in foxholes,” many soldiers have fought for the country despite being agnostics or atheists. Their patriotism comes from faith in our country, but that is not enough for some military officers. Recently, wiccan families have protested the refusal to include their symbols on tombstones for fallen soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, Spc. Jeremy Hall has filed a lawsuit saying that he was punished for trying to organize meetings for atheists and non-Christians in Iraq, including an effort to block his reenlistment. For the full story, click here
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Their are no atheists in fox holes..
billy:
“Their are no atheists in fox holes..”
*************
… meaning, I suppose, that one must be in mortal fear for one’s life to be compelled to believe the preposterous tenets of the Christian religion. Quite an endorsement!
Wonder how that works if one is tortured almost to death. Bet you’d come to believe anything to save your skin. This speaks to the weakness of man’s character. not the revelatory nature of the supposed religion of the deity.
Man, you are one hostile guy…
Billy,
While I’ve never been in battle, I have been in some pretty stressful situations, including instances where I and\or loved ones were in serious danger of dying.
I haven’t prayed during a single such instance since I’ve become an atheist.
billy:
I prefer “honest and rational” since I haven’t burned anyone at the stake, drown any witches, or called the current President of the United States the anti-christ or even commissioned a poll about whether he should be assassinated or not. I think the “foxhole crowd” did that.
Sometimes it takes a series of horrific experiences or events to shake us to our foundation and realize how much we need Him in our life. War can be the catalyst to bring us home, or to lead us to Him when we are at our nadir. Either way, He loves us and I think will He take us anyway He can..
The things you say are so outrageous and extreme, they border on the “sensational”. Is that purposeful?
“For out of fear and need each religion is born, creeping into existence on the byways of reason.” (Nietzsche)
billy:
“Sometimes it takes a series of horrific experiences or events to shake us to our foundation and realize how much we need Him in our life.”
************
And sometimes those same events shake our rationality to the core and we come to believe in things with no evidence because it makes us feel better to believe them. Tell me, when did you make your best decisions — under mind-numbing stress, or after cool, dispassionate deliberation? If the former, maybe we should have juries decide cases after running through rush-hour traffic following the presentation of the case. On second thought, I am hostile– to stupidity and soft-headed thinking.
Being a juror might not be quite as “stressful” or harrowing as being “shot” at on a daily basis. Or as horrific as seeing your fellow soldier and friend blown to pieces after stepping on a mine…
Billy,
I can regurgitate just as many religious platitudes and dead metaphors as you, and probably do a better job of it from an aesthetic stand point.
The problem is that your trite truism is founded on something other than truth. There are Atheists in fox-holes and it’s insulting to others to assume that they only believe what they believe until they’re in a stressful situation. What’s worse is it’s nothing short of intellectual onanism to pat yourself on the back while saying “deep down, even people who disagree with me know I’m right.”
Absolute statements are seldom accurate.
I believe the reality of God is all around me. When I look at all of created life, I marvel at the Infinite Wisdom and perfect planning behind this divine plan….
I think you should point that high powered perception at yourself, especially when talking about “absolutism”..
billy:
“The things you say are so outrageous and extreme, they border on the “sensational”. Is that purposeful?”
**************
It certainly is because waking one another from a delusion requires the sleeper to first acknowledge that the delusion exists in the first place. And that my dear fellow, is an extreme revelation for most since they have been indoctrinated since childhood that some Santa in the sky will care for them and solve their problems. Once they realize the utter stupidity of such a proposition, they initially fear the unknown, but sooner or later they come to realize that our existence and happiness is in our own hands, and not at the whim of some other-worldly creature. That is both frightening and strangely satisfying. It takes courage to believe that and put away Santa Claus and other childish things. Paul had it right:
“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
1 Corinthians 13:11 (KJV)
His methodology was sound; he just arrived at the wrong conclusion.
Billy,
I’ll bite, what absolutes do I believe?
When I look at the convolutions on the “ear” of a human, I marvel. Wax is the only thing that keeps insects from making a home in our cranium. Because of ear wax, it is impossible for these creatures to make a home in “our” head. The Intelligence behind this design is staggering and “perfect”…
You are an “absolute” atheist. That atheism may be tested in a “foxhole” of course..
Judge, even “the devil” can quote scripture..
Judge, I suspect you and St. Paul had little in common..
Billy,
Nope, nice try. I’m an avowed weak atheist. I admit the possibility of a god existing, I just don’t happen to have any reason to believe that one does.
Also, you’ll notice I said “seldom accurate ” and not “never accurate.” I try and choose my words carefully.
Judge, I challenge you to rethink the definition of what a delusion is..
Sorry Gyges, I thought you were the Judge, my apologies.
Maybe you are an agnostic Gyges. Did you have any religious formation as a child? If so, what kind?
According to your logic all scientists and politicians who don’t subscribe to “atheism” are fools who believe in fairy tales, is this correct Judge?
billy:
“Because of ear wax, it is impossible for these creatures to make a home in “our” head. The Intelligence behind this design is staggering and “perfect”…
***********
Well that’s one distinct — though unlikely — possibility. The other possibility supported by mountains of scientific research and proven scientific fact is that humans bearing the mutated gene that supplies more ear wax were better suited to their environment (i.e. avoiding bug infestations) than their counterparts and that they, by the process of natural selection, became the dominant variant of the species precisely because they were better adapted to their environment. As successive generations came and went this advantaged gene provided the the protection you describe.
Tell me wouldn’t a truly intelligent design preclude the possibility of insect ear infestation by making the insects too big or the ear canal too small to accept the pests thereby removing the need for wax in the first place? Or perhaps you like impacted ear wax and believe it part of god’s divine perfect plan? And if you believe it, well, it must be so.
billy:
“According to your logic all scientists and politicians who don’t subscribe to “atheism” are fools who believe in fairy tales, is this correct Judge?”
************
Don’t know why you call me “Judge,” but I’ll play along. I think all people who believe in things without sufficient proof and who will admit no possibility of error in spite of this absence of proof are worse than fools, they are delusional.
Now I understand, Saint Paul was nothing more than a “true believer”, who came to the wrong conclusions. You Judge, on the other hand, are right and have come to an “enlightened conclusion”. Where does your path to this type of enlightenment stem from?
Can you “prove” the reality of the Big Bang theory? If so you are the only physicist yet who can, please enlighten me. I want to make sure you are not suffering momentarily from a “delusion”
I too believe in natural selection. I believe this is a slow inexorable process, that is used to form all living creatures over eons of time..
I still believe in God though…
billy:
“You Judge, on the other hand, are right and have come to an “enlightened conclusion”. Where does your path to this type of enlightenment stem from?”
***********
I have no monopoly on the truth. Also, I make no pretense that I do in contrast to many of the religious who often do. Paul may be correct and I admit the possibility though his proof is a little skimpy. These are my conclusions to be considered by others and adopted or discarded based on the evidence or logic I present in support of them. I have no need to appeal to a higher authority in the heavens to validate my opinions or to convince others that I have some secret knowledge that sprinkling holy water on my head confers. My path is the same one everyone who is honest walks — logic, experience, and rational thought.
The process of “creation” is a mystery. I like “mystery”, but my faith is a “gift”. Some have it and some don’t. This is also a mystery.
billy:
“I still believe in God though…,”
*************
That’s fine, but the question is, do you believe in religion?
If you have no monopoly on the “truth”, than you must admit the possibility that Saint Paul “could” be right..
Thankyou Judge, you have cleared up all ambiguity, you have just admitted that “YOU” have no monopoly on the truth and have admitted that Saint Paul “may” be right. You state his position may be “skimpy”, illustrate to me how your position is not “skimpy”..
billy:
Mysteries are overrated. We once believed that child birth was a mystery and that when things when wrong it was “God’s Plan.” No one believes that any more since we better understand the process of birth though not every aspect of the phenomenon. We intervene to save both child and mother when the natural (i.e. God-like) thing to do would be to let nature runs its course and one or both to perish. Mysteries are the mothers of delusions since these delusions are bad explanations for how the world works.
By “definition” if I believe in God I must be religious…
Mysteries are what make man strive to unlock the mysteries of the universe and his innermost mind. Without mystery, we would perish for want of knowledge. Because of mystery man was compelled to fly to the moon. Invariably, this leads to still greater mystery, ad infinitum..
I am perplexed with your overworked usage of the word delusion..
billy:
You are one of those guys who believes that just because something is possible that it must also be probable. I ‘ll stack up my knowledge of the way the world works with that of a First Century author like Paul and let any fair minded person decide who better understands the true nature of things. A point by point dissection of Paul’s work isn’t needed because Paul offers no proof of his position. He wasn’t writing an argument; he was promoting a religion where everyone in his audience already assumed the validity of the tenets of that religion.
By the way, I needn’t prove anything. It is upon the religious, who ask us to believe things which appear unlikely and contrary to human experience to prove their assertions. I simple assert I do not know.
billy:
“By “definition” if I believe in God I must be religious…”
***********
One can believe in god,and reject the validity of each of the world’s religions. Luther did it, and formed his own religion. Your syllogism is thus invalid.
Wrong, Luther formed his own religion, it is called Lutheranism. A variety of protestantism. You Judge are decidedly wrong in point of fact and by definition..
You offer no “proof” of your position either Judge. You “flail” about claiming to be an atheist, yet “quote” the epistles of Saint Paul to illustrate a point, a “point” I have yet to understand..
Luther was a “religious” man, because he believed in God.
Prior to “breaking” away from the Catholic faith, Luther was an ordained Augustinian monk, who broke his vows when he fornicated with a nun, he was in “lust” with.
billy:
You obviously aren’t reading my posts or are letting your religious outrage get in the way of your thoughts. It’s a common problem. I explicitly said Luther rejected all other religions and formed his own religion, and then you triumphantly said in the very next post that I was wrong because “Luther formed his own religion.’ Then you went on to tell me it was a variety of Protestantism. Might have well have told me it was a variety of religion, duh. You then gave me an unneeded history lesson on Luther with whom I am well-acquainted.
Take some time and re-read the posts or have another scotch, either way works.
Billy,
There’s some overlap between the two terms, depending on who’s defining them, but I choose to identify myself as an atheist.
If you ask me if there’s a god my answer will be: there’s a very slight possibility.
If you ask me if I believe in a god my answer will be: No.
All that is irrelevant. I could have a faith that would rival any Saint you could care to mention, and there would still be atheists in fox-holes. As it turns out, atheists are just like other people, some change their views in times of high stress, some don’t.