Comments on: Democrats Admit Knowledge of the CIA’s Plan to Destroy Tapes http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/ Res ipsa loquitur ("The thing itself speaks") Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:34:24 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: parallelsidewalk http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3289 parallelsidewalk Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:46:57 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3289 Nothing makes my gloomier for the prospects of America then being shown repeatedly that we have no serious opposition party in America. The Bush Administration does essentially whatever it wants (as you are Al-Timimi and Al-Arian's counsel, though, I hardly have to tell you that) and the Democrats maybe hem and haw slightly before giving in, even if giving in means actively helping to circumvent the law. I realize lack of moral courage among politicians is common, but this goes beyond that into the realm of almost physical terror of one's political adversaries. Nothing makes my gloomier for the prospects of America then being shown repeatedly that we have no serious opposition party in America. The Bush Administration does essentially whatever it wants (as you are Al-Timimi and Al-Arian’s counsel, though, I hardly have to tell you that) and the Democrats maybe hem and haw slightly before giving in, even if giving in means actively helping to circumvent the law. I realize lack of moral courage among politicians is common, but this goes beyond that into the realm of almost physical terror of one’s political adversaries.

]]> By: rcampbell http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3285 rcampbell Sat, 08 Dec 2007 13:24:01 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3285 I heard Randi Rhodes' recent interview with Mr. Turley where he suggested a disturbing and yet an all too reasonable explanation of the Dems' inaction on such Constitutionally heinous and impeachable offenses as wiretapping without FISA warrants, torture, US Atty's firings and all their other misdeeds, now to include the destruction of evidence, of this administration. It's so simple---the fix is in. It appears the Congressional Dems are assuming that the folks who gave them their majority in order to confront the administration on Iraq and these other illegalities will vote them in again despite avoiding not only their responsibility to their supporters, but their responsibility to the US Constitution. They will do anything--or nothing as the case may be--to avoid an impeachment investigation during an election year. An example is not pressing Judge Mukasey on "waterboarding" as torture. Had the Senate forced Mukasey to answer the question it would have triggered an inquiry as to why the President authorized an illegal act--an impeachable offense. This is a VERY dangerous political gamble meant to not ruffle mid-America's feathers and to protect their fellow denizens of DC politics. I, for one, deeply resent it. I heard Randi Rhodes’ recent interview with Mr. Turley where he suggested a disturbing and yet an all too reasonable explanation of the Dems’ inaction on such Constitutionally heinous and impeachable offenses as wiretapping without FISA warrants, torture, US Atty’s firings and all their other misdeeds, now to include the destruction of evidence, of this administration. It’s so simple—the fix is in.

It appears the Congressional Dems are assuming that the folks who gave them their majority in order to confront the administration on Iraq and these other illegalities will vote them in again despite avoiding not only their responsibility to their supporters, but their responsibility to the US Constitution. They will do anything–or nothing as the case may be–to avoid an impeachment investigation during an election year.

An example is not pressing Judge Mukasey on “waterboarding” as torture. Had the Senate forced Mukasey to answer the question it would have triggered an inquiry as to why the President authorized an illegal act–an impeachable offense.

This is a VERY dangerous political gamble meant to not ruffle mid-America’s feathers and to protect their fellow denizens of DC politics.

I, for one, deeply resent it.

]]> By: Matt Janovic http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3269 Matt Janovic Sat, 08 Dec 2007 04:19:16 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3269 I'd say many of these players are compromised, possibly through early acts as co-conspirators. It's also possible that they have certain habits or behaviors that the administration has become aware of thanks to being able monitor their actions. Remember that Sen. Rockefeller covered his own ass when he wrote that letter to himself about the warrantless surveillance? 'July 17, 2003 Dear Mr. Vice President, I am writing to reiterate my concern regarding the sensitive intelligence issues we discussed today with the DCI, DIRNSA, and Chairman Roberts and our House Intelligence Committee counterparts. Clearly the activities we discussed raise profound oversight issues. As you know, I am neither a technician or an attorney. Given the security restrictions associated with this information, and my inability to consult staff or counsel on my own, I feel unable to fully evaluate, much less endorse these activities. As I reflected on the meeting today, and the future we face, John Poindexter's TIA project sprung to mind, exacerbating my concern regarding the direction the Administration is moving with regard to security, technology, and surveilliance. Without more information and the ability to draw on any independent legal or technical expertise, I simply cannot satisfy lingering concerns raised by the briefing we received. I am retaining a copy of this letter in a sealed envelope in the secure spaces of the Senate Intelligence Committee to ensure that I have a record of this communication. I appreciate your consideration of my views. Most respectfully, Jay Rockefeller' This thing is going to hit a wall eventually, the laws of physics can only be delayed for so long. Such Democratic incumbents have known about these practices all-along, but many of them either signed security agreements where they would be jailed if they revealed the practices, and/or they approve of them whole-heartedly. I’d say many of these players are compromised, possibly through early acts as co-conspirators. It’s also possible that they have certain habits or behaviors that the administration has become aware of thanks to being able monitor their actions. Remember that Sen. Rockefeller covered his own ass when he wrote that letter to himself about the warrantless surveillance?

‘July 17, 2003
Dear Mr. Vice President,

I am writing to reiterate my concern regarding the sensitive intelligence issues we discussed today with the DCI, DIRNSA, and Chairman Roberts and our House Intelligence Committee counterparts.

Clearly the activities we discussed raise profound oversight issues. As you know, I am neither a technician or an attorney. Given the security restrictions associated with this information, and my inability to consult staff or counsel on my own, I feel unable to fully evaluate, much less endorse these activities.

As I reflected on the meeting today, and the future we face, John Poindexter’s TIA project sprung to mind, exacerbating my concern regarding the direction the Administration is moving with regard to security, technology, and surveilliance.

Without more information and the ability to draw on any independent legal or technical expertise, I simply cannot satisfy lingering concerns raised by the briefing we received.

I am retaining a copy of this letter in a sealed envelope in the secure spaces of the Senate Intelligence Committee to ensure that I have a record of this communication.

I appreciate your consideration of my views.

Most respectfully,

Jay Rockefeller’

This thing is going to hit a wall eventually, the laws of physics can only be delayed for so long. Such Democratic incumbents have known about these practices all-along, but many of them either signed security agreements where they would be jailed if they revealed the practices, and/or they approve of them whole-heartedly.

]]> By: deeply worried http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3094 deeply worried Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:15:05 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3094 This is a very serious criminal act with potentially very serious consequences for quite a few people. A three-way struggle between Congress, the Vice President's circle, and the intelligence community. I actually want to belie my pessimist reputation and suggest that Attorney General Mukasey may agreeably surprise us in his upcoming role. My completely outsider, out-of-the-loop take on him is that such goings on as this tape destruction offends him, and that he will soon issue some orders that will justify Senator Schumer's trust in him. This is a very serious criminal act with potentially very serious consequences for quite a few people.

A three-way struggle between Congress, the Vice President’s circle, and the intelligence community.

I actually want to belie my pessimist reputation and suggest that Attorney General Mukasey may agreeably surprise us in his upcoming role.

My completely outsider, out-of-the-loop take on him is that such goings on as this tape destruction offends him, and that he will soon issue some orders that will justify Senator Schumer’s trust in him.

]]> By: Anonymous http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3091 Anonymous Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:29:33 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3091 By destroying the tapeas -- and "removing" the record of the interrogation -- the DOD has contradicted itself: It no longer has the means to justify why it held GTMO POWs without prospect for trial. The argument was: "We cannot let them go because we need to interrogate them. They still have intelligence value." But by destroyign teh CIA tape, how can anyone claim "the intelligence value" of that prisoner (as measured by the data on the tape) would justify the detention without trial? Tape destruction means the arguments behind the detention without charges goes out the window. By destroying the tapeas — and “removing” the record of the interrogation — the DOD has contradicted itself: It no longer has the means to justify why it held GTMO POWs without prospect for trial. The argument was: “We cannot let them go because we need to interrogate them. They still have intelligence value.” But by destroyign teh CIA tape, how can anyone claim “the intelligence value” of that prisoner (as measured by the data on the tape) would justify the detention without trial?

Tape destruction means the arguments behind the detention without charges goes out the window.

]]> By: Patty C http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3082 Patty C Fri, 07 Dec 2007 19:53:56 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3082 How difficult would it be to "call in the troops" in the form of State Attorneys General at this stage? I have a phone, and I'm not afraid to use it. How difficult would it be to “call in the troops” in the form of
State Attorneys General at this stage?

I have a phone, and I’m not afraid to use it.

]]> By: jonathanturley http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3080 jonathanturley Fri, 07 Dec 2007 19:23:01 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3080 Patty C: It will be interesting to see how some Democrats will be able to leave the appearance of outrage while conspicuously avoiding serious action. There are many members who want to see a true investigation and will go wherever it may lead. However, any investigation will rough up some members. Patty C:

It will be interesting to see how some Democrats will be able to leave the appearance of outrage while conspicuously avoiding serious action. There are many members who want to see a true investigation and will go wherever it may lead. However, any investigation will rough up some members.

]]> By: Patty C http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3077 Patty C Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:37:33 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3077 As adults, in life, if one is willing to take the credit, one must also be willing to take the blame. I used to look at the Democrats decision not to push for impeachment as some sort of misplaced sense of having 'taken the high road' to not spend valuable time, energy, and money as the Republicans had with Clinton over the Lewinski scandal. As if there were any comparison to be made between that waste of time, energy, and money and the repeated constitutional insults Bush and his gang have perpetrated upon the American people. Knowing what we know, to pursue action before they all 'slip outta town' in January of 2009, would be time well spent, in my view. Perhaps the best in eight years! As adults, in life, if one is willing to take the credit, one must also be willing to take the blame.

I used to look at the Democrats decision not to push for impeachment as some sort of misplaced sense of having ‘taken the high road’ to not spend valuable time, energy, and money as the Republicans had with Clinton over the Lewinski scandal. As if there were any comparison to be made between that waste of time, energy, and money and the repeated constitutional insults Bush and his gang have perpetrated upon the American people.

Knowing what we know, to pursue action before they all ’slip outta town’ in January of 2009, would be time well spent, in my view.
Perhaps the best in eight years!

]]> By: toosinbeymen http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3075 toosinbeymen Fri, 07 Dec 2007 17:42:43 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3075 Unfortunately, even among the democrats, statesmen are far outnumbered by elected representatives with suspect motives. I have been an activist for democratic causes in the past but I'm discouraged by the actions of Schumer, Feinstein and the blue dogs. Unfortunately, even among the democrats, statesmen are far outnumbered by elected representatives with suspect motives. I have been an activist for democratic causes in the past but I’m discouraged by the actions of Schumer, Feinstein and the blue dogs.

]]> By: deeply worried http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3070 deeply worried Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:23:27 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3070 They (the Dems) will need some kind of strong coercive external support. For the life of me I can't figure out what can be done to break the perpetual check they are in. And neither can they apparently. They (the Dems) will need some kind of strong coercive external support. For the life of me I can’t figure out what can be done to break the perpetual check they are in.

And neither can they apparently.

]]> By: jonathanturley http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3068 jonathanturley Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:15:59 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3068 I count at least six indictable offenses and about a dozen likely defendants. The question is whether democrats will help the White House again off the track of this rapidly approaching train. I count at least six indictable offenses and about a dozen likely defendants. The question is whether democrats will help the White House again off the track of this rapidly approaching train.

]]> By: deeply worried http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3067 deeply worried Fri, 07 Dec 2007 16:15:18 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3067 Perhaps I was too generous. My historical sense is less than what it should be, but I recall that there were eras like those following both world wars where extremely repressive acts were carried out by the government or where demagogues swept away opposition by setting up the simple "with us or against us" false choice. What we found out then was that moral and political courage are not the common patrimony of our elected representatives. In fact the opposite is true. It is somewhat disheartening to realize our own generation is no different- that our representatives are of no sterner stuff than of those that enabled the outrages of the past. It really is not a partisan issue, only a human characteristic of all times. Humans attack in numbers and retreat in numbers. Sole standouts are rare. This has been an era of retreat for those who would follow the laws of the land and respect the constitution. But the retreat is coming to an end. Perhaps I was too generous.

My historical sense is less than what it should be, but I recall that there were eras like those following both world wars where extremely repressive acts were carried out by the government or where demagogues swept away opposition by setting up the simple “with us or against us” false choice.

What we found out then was that moral and political courage are not the common patrimony of our elected representatives. In fact the opposite is true.

It is somewhat disheartening to realize our own generation is no different- that our representatives are of no sterner stuff than of those that enabled the outrages of the past.

It really is not a partisan issue, only a human characteristic of all times. Humans attack in numbers and retreat in numbers. Sole standouts are rare.

This has been an era of retreat for those who would follow the laws of the land and respect the constitution. But the retreat is coming to an end.

]]> By: deeply worried http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3066 deeply worried Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:56:47 +0000 http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/07/democrats-admit-knowledge-of-the-cias-plan-to-destroy-tapes/#comment-3066 During this era the law was subordinated to concerns over public safety. That's the only plausible explanation as to why otherwise honorable representatives like Harman and Rockefeller, and more recently, Schumer and Feinstein, would act as enablers of torture. They must have been convinced that torture was the only way to prevent mass loss of life. Yet, the moral stain will always remain, both on our national honor and on the consciences of all who participated in this most odious of all human behaviors. During this era the law was subordinated to concerns over public safety.

That’s the only plausible explanation as to why otherwise honorable representatives like Harman and Rockefeller, and more recently, Schumer and Feinstein, would act as enablers of torture.

They must have been convinced that torture was the only way to prevent mass loss of life.

Yet, the moral stain will always remain, both on our national honor and on the consciences of all who participated in this most odious of all human behaviors.

]]>