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	<title>Comments on: Nominee for Deputy Attorney General Refuses to Recognize Waterboarding as Torture</title>
	<atom:link href="http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/</link>
	<description>Res ipsa loquitur (&#34;The thing itself speaks&#34;)</description>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4927</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2007 04:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4927</guid>
		<description>good post Daniel B.  Holt is like many politicians nowadays, when a constituent cuts to the chase as you did, they go into a hierophantic politico-speak that is as stylishly meaningless as reciting serial numbers off of washing machines.  It is so easy to see them switching gears.  And infuriating.

I thought the FEC might shut down without the block appointments: after all two members don&#039;t constitute a quorom.

Or do they?  Remember the Office of Legal Counsel?  It turns out they were asked a quorum question a couple years ago on the NLRB. Here was their opinion:

If a quorum of the committee delegates voting power to a 3 person panel and then 1 person of that panel is absent, then the remaining 2 people of the panel can do all the business of the committee.  I think I remember this correctly.

Can the FEC in its waning moments with its membership intact do a similar stunt?

You heard it here first....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good post Daniel B.  Holt is like many politicians nowadays, when a constituent cuts to the chase as you did, they go into a hierophantic politico-speak that is as stylishly meaningless as reciting serial numbers off of washing machines.  It is so easy to see them switching gears.  And infuriating.</p>
<p>I thought the FEC might shut down without the block appointments: after all two members don&#8217;t constitute a quorom.</p>
<p>Or do they?  Remember the Office of Legal Counsel?  It turns out they were asked a quorum question a couple years ago on the NLRB. Here was their opinion:</p>
<p>If a quorum of the committee delegates voting power to a 3 person panel and then 1 person of that panel is absent, then the remaining 2 people of the panel can do all the business of the committee.  I think I remember this correctly.</p>
<p>Can the FEC in its waning moments with its membership intact do a similar stunt?</p>
<p>You heard it here first&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel B</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4617</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4617</guid>
		<description>I find myself very much in the same place as RCampbell, in that my faith in the Democrats to do anything useful beyond protecting the Supreme Court from further disastrous appointments has pretty much evaporated.

The utter arrogance of the Bush Justice Department, whose philosophy seems to be &quot;we will decide what is legal or illegal, precedent be damned&quot; drives me to the brink of despair.  But even more troubling is the &quot;roll over and play dead&quot; response by the Democrats, who allow these tainted nominees like Mukasey and Filip to be confirmed anyway.

This past August, I attended a constituency meeting of my Congressman, Rush Holt, desiring to share my strong feeling that GWB&#039;s use of signing statements to avoid compliance with laws he doesn&#039;t like amount to violation of his oath of office.  Bruce Fein has elegantly argued this very position, and I mistakenly thought Congressman Holt might share this view.  I was flabbergasted when it became evident he didn&#039;t really want to talk about this, and he sought to deal with it by saying &quot;we&#039;re holding hearings&quot;.  For all of their hearings, it seems no one gets held accountable for anything, and Bush gets exactly what he wants, time and time again.

I have little faith that GWB will have a real accountability moment as long as he is in office.  I continue to hope that once he and Cheney are private citizens, maybe someone will pursue them for the rampant lawlessness that has been their legacy, but I&#039;m not holding my breath.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself very much in the same place as RCampbell, in that my faith in the Democrats to do anything useful beyond protecting the Supreme Court from further disastrous appointments has pretty much evaporated.</p>
<p>The utter arrogance of the Bush Justice Department, whose philosophy seems to be &#8220;we will decide what is legal or illegal, precedent be damned&#8221; drives me to the brink of despair.  But even more troubling is the &#8220;roll over and play dead&#8221; response by the Democrats, who allow these tainted nominees like Mukasey and Filip to be confirmed anyway.</p>
<p>This past August, I attended a constituency meeting of my Congressman, Rush Holt, desiring to share my strong feeling that GWB&#8217;s use of signing statements to avoid compliance with laws he doesn&#8217;t like amount to violation of his oath of office.  Bruce Fein has elegantly argued this very position, and I mistakenly thought Congressman Holt might share this view.  I was flabbergasted when it became evident he didn&#8217;t really want to talk about this, and he sought to deal with it by saying &#8220;we&#8217;re holding hearings&#8221;.  For all of their hearings, it seems no one gets held accountable for anything, and Bush gets exactly what he wants, time and time again.</p>
<p>I have little faith that GWB will have a real accountability moment as long as he is in office.  I continue to hope that once he and Cheney are private citizens, maybe someone will pursue them for the rampant lawlessness that has been their legacy, but I&#8217;m not holding my breath.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4605</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4605</guid>
		<description>At least Von Spakovsky didn&#039;t get his FEC berth, so I guess Leader Reid got a couple of things right there at the end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least Von Spakovsky didn&#8217;t get his FEC berth, so I guess Leader Reid got a couple of things right there at the end.</p>
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		<title>By: fecon</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4598</link>
		<dc:creator>fecon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4598</guid>
		<description>The only good thing about making Mark Filio the Deputy AG is that it takes him off the Federal bench. A bad judge is always worse than a bad bureaucrat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only good thing about making Mark Filio the Deputy AG is that it takes him off the Federal bench. A bad judge is always worse than a bad bureaucrat.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4589</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4589</guid>
		<description>The Electoral College and a DW/RC ticket?

Two wrongs don&#039;t make a right.

the threat is not that we would get another Alito or Roberts, they are fairly mild and not at all bomb-throwers.

No, the real threat is currently sitting in the ante-room, DC Appeals, and I suspect Professor Turley knows who I am referring to, but I am practicing a prudent silence.

Hint: Lochner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Electoral College and a DW/RC ticket?</p>
<p>Two wrongs don&#8217;t make a right.</p>
<p>the threat is not that we would get another Alito or Roberts, they are fairly mild and not at all bomb-throwers.</p>
<p>No, the real threat is currently sitting in the ante-room, DC Appeals, and I suspect Professor Turley knows who I am referring to, but I am practicing a prudent silence.</p>
<p>Hint: Lochner.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanturley</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4579</link>
		<dc:creator>jonathanturley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4579</guid>
		<description>I humbly accept your nomination.  Now we only need the electoral college to put the Deeply Worried, RCampbell ticket over the top.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I humbly accept your nomination.  Now we only need the electoral college to put the Deeply Worried, RCampbell ticket over the top.</p>
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		<title>By: rcampbell</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4572</link>
		<dc:creator>rcampbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4572</guid>
		<description>My enthusiasm for the Democratic Party has waned considerably since those halcyon days of victory and promise long, long ago in Nov.&#039;06.  I&#039;ve come to the conclusion that the ONLY reason to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate, regardless of who that might be, is to protect selections on the Supreme Court.  It would appear there will at least two openings in the next 4-8 years and I couldn&#039;t bear to see any more Roberts or Alitos let alone the likes of Thomas and Scalia on the high bench.  I&#039;ll second Deeply Worried&#039;s nomination of J. Turley.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My enthusiasm for the Democratic Party has waned considerably since those halcyon days of victory and promise long, long ago in Nov.&#8217;06.  I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that the ONLY reason to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate, regardless of who that might be, is to protect selections on the Supreme Court.  It would appear there will at least two openings in the next 4-8 years and I couldn&#8217;t bear to see any more Roberts or Alitos let alone the likes of Thomas and Scalia on the high bench.  I&#8217;ll second Deeply Worried&#8217;s nomination of J. Turley.</p>
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		<title>By: Patty C</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4558</link>
		<dc:creator>Patty C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 06:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4558</guid>
		<description>In response to Shredder and &#039;Thom Hartmann&#039; - my intuition tells me, on the possible merits, this is no doubt a lot less well thought out 
- than that.  

And I&#039;m not buying it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Shredder and &#8216;Thom Hartmann&#8217; &#8211; my intuition tells me, on the possible merits, this is no doubt a lot less well thought out<br />
- than that.  </p>
<p>And I&#8217;m not buying it.</p>
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		<title>By: rafflaw</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4552</link>
		<dc:creator>rafflaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4552</guid>
		<description>I agree with Shredder that the Bush Administration uses torture to send a message of terror, to detainees and Americans.  The Democrats need to terrorize them by holding their collective feet to the fire and bring them up for U.S. charges and possibly international charges for torture.  It would be nice if George W&#039;s involvement in ordering the torture is disclosed publicly, as Professor Turley has suggested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Shredder that the Bush Administration uses torture to send a message of terror, to detainees and Americans.  The Democrats need to terrorize them by holding their collective feet to the fire and bring them up for U.S. charges and possibly international charges for torture.  It would be nice if George W&#8217;s involvement in ordering the torture is disclosed publicly, as Professor Turley has suggested.</p>
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		<title>By: Shredder</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4551</link>
		<dc:creator>Shredder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4551</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s just unbelievable to me that there is even the necessity of a discussion about this. Prof. Turley, thank you for continuing to spotlight all this. Thom Hartmann made a good point today: given the overwhelming evidence that torture does not work, and does not elicit the truth, then why do they do it? The answer is that it terrorizes people. It&#039;s not to get at the truth; it is to &quot;send a message.&quot; In other words, torture is a form of terrorism. I think this is exactly right and that this framing is powerful and should be adopted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just unbelievable to me that there is even the necessity of a discussion about this. Prof. Turley, thank you for continuing to spotlight all this. Thom Hartmann made a good point today: given the overwhelming evidence that torture does not work, and does not elicit the truth, then why do they do it? The answer is that it terrorizes people. It&#8217;s not to get at the truth; it is to &#8220;send a message.&#8221; In other words, torture is a form of terrorism. I think this is exactly right and that this framing is powerful and should be adopted.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4548</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4548</guid>
		<description>&quot;For modes of faith let graceless zealots fight;
He can&#039;t be wrong whose life is in the right.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For modes of faith let graceless zealots fight;<br />
He can&#8217;t be wrong whose life is in the right.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanturley</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4533</link>
		<dc:creator>jonathanturley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4533</guid>
		<description>Well I like the idea (black robes are slimming) but I will keep my day job for the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I like the idea (black robes are slimming) but I will keep my day job for the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4530</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4530</guid>
		<description>God help us if so.

Professor Turley, I hope you will be ready to answer your country&#039;s call and become an Associate Justice when we get another vacancy to fill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God help us if so.</p>
<p>Professor Turley, I hope you will be ready to answer your country&#8217;s call and become an Associate Justice when we get another vacancy to fill.</p>
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		<title>By: jonathanturley</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4529</link>
		<dc:creator>jonathanturley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4529</guid>
		<description>There is still a view among some on the Hill that Democrats have a captive audience. After all civil libertarians are unlikely to vote Republicans after the Bush Administration.  Accordingly, there is little fear that the protection given the President on torture will be remembered, let alone acted on, in the coming elections.  They may be right.  Cynical, but right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is still a view among some on the Hill that Democrats have a captive audience. After all civil libertarians are unlikely to vote Republicans after the Bush Administration.  Accordingly, there is little fear that the protection given the President on torture will be remembered, let alone acted on, in the coming elections.  They may be right.  Cynical, but right.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4527</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4527</guid>
		<description>errata: insert &quot;Constitution&quot; before &quot;reside&quot; 

DW of the flying fingers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>errata: insert &#8220;Constitution&#8221; before &#8220;reside&#8221; </p>
<p>DW of the flying fingers.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4526</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4526</guid>
		<description>As to torture:

We all remember and love (Okay, at least some of us are old enough to know who he was) Wiley Rutledge, of golden laurels in that celestial hall where the lovers of the reside in scholarly bliss.

As to the mistreatment of men by governments, he said in the famous Yamashita case:

&quot;It is not too early, it is never too early, for the nation steadfastly to follow its great constitutional traditions, none older or more universally protective against unbridled power than due process of law in the trial and punishment of men, that is of all men, whether citizens, aliens, alien enemies or enemy belligerants.

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself...&quot;

Another freedom-hating liberal, no doubt, to the Deputy AG.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to torture:</p>
<p>We all remember and love (Okay, at least some of us are old enough to know who he was) Wiley Rutledge, of golden laurels in that celestial hall where the lovers of the reside in scholarly bliss.</p>
<p>As to the mistreatment of men by governments, he said in the famous Yamashita case:</p>
<p>&#8220;It is not too early, it is never too early, for the nation steadfastly to follow its great constitutional traditions, none older or more universally protective against unbridled power than due process of law in the trial and punishment of men, that is of all men, whether citizens, aliens, alien enemies or enemy belligerants.</p>
<p>He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Another freedom-hating liberal, no doubt, to the Deputy AG.</p>
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		<title>By: deeply worried</title>
		<link>http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4525</link>
		<dc:creator>deeply worried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:06:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/19/nominee-for-deputy-attorney-general-refuses-to-recognize-waterboarding-as-torture/#comment-4525</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know, news like this makes me want to grab for my bottle of Paxil....

I keep wondering if anyone on the Hill actually remembers any of the law they learned when they were getting their JD&#039;s?

So yet another of the long grey line of FS foot-soldiers is career-tracked to the purple.  And the only ones who could stand to block the greased skids are now standing aside.

Reid is quoted in the Times today.  A floor speech on Friday and he said that the Bush era will be remembered as a singular and dark time for the country.

It wouldn&#039;t have been so dark if he and his leadership would have done their job.

Professor Turley keeps sounding like Cato the Censor and his &quot;Cartago delenda est&quot;, in maniacally repeating the disconnect between the Democrats and their base.

Roger that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know, news like this makes me want to grab for my bottle of Paxil&#8230;.</p>
<p>I keep wondering if anyone on the Hill actually remembers any of the law they learned when they were getting their JD&#8217;s?</p>
<p>So yet another of the long grey line of FS foot-soldiers is career-tracked to the purple.  And the only ones who could stand to block the greased skids are now standing aside.</p>
<p>Reid is quoted in the Times today.  A floor speech on Friday and he said that the Bush era will be remembered as a singular and dark time for the country.</p>
<p>It wouldn&#8217;t have been so dark if he and his leadership would have done their job.</p>
<p>Professor Turley keeps sounding like Cato the Censor and his &#8220;Cartago delenda est&#8221;, in maniacally repeating the disconnect between the Democrats and their base.</p>
<p>Roger that.</p>
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