My feeling is that Mr. Mason and the other founding fathers didn’t believe they had to spell out what they felt should have been so obvious to everyone. Which is simply this; torture IS cruel and unusual punishment! Since it is obviously a crime for INDIVIDUALS to torture other people, so it is for state governments as well. It’s an outrage that our own President is so clueless in this matter. But that isn’t such a surprise, given that he’s been that way long before he was elected.

Torture was indeed brought up. In the 1788 Virginia ratifying convention, a delegate rose to express his fear that the proposed constitution did nothing to protect the people from a government employing torture. The very famous George Mason rose and replied to this fear:

“Mr. GEORGE MASON replied that the worthy gentleman was mistaken in his assertion that the bill of rights did not prohibit torture; for that one clause expressly provided that no man can give evidence against himself; and that the worthy gentleman must know that, in those countries where torture is used, evidence was extorted from the criminal himself. Another clause of the bill of rights provided that no cruel and unusual punishments shall be inflicted; therefore, torture was included in the prohibition.”

What would Mr Mason say to the case of Padilla, reprehensible an individual as he undoubtedly is, but still a citizen of the United States and very likely subject to cruel and unusual punishment if not torture, even before being convicted of any crime.

“I recently was talking with a Senator who said to me, “Professor, we didn’t ask the terrorists to sign the Geneva Conventions. How can you expect us to abide by commitments that they don’t adhere to?” To which I replied, “Yes, and we didn’t ask the whales to sign the Whaling Convention either. We sign these treaties to protect us from ourselves, not from them.”

tip of the hat to OpinioJuris.

As a seasoned traveler, Patty C.’s comments about Americans traveling abroad are most accurate. Those that are not afraid of the US are furious over, what seems, the National hubris and America’s citizenry apparently apathetic about our cultural and international acts of hegemony.

Homeland Security was a another ‘good-ole boy’s club’ created by these architects that selected GWB as their titular leader. I’m not enlightened from some Reader’s Digest article on the subject – they’re are thousands of us around the country that have experienced the no-bid manner that great technology and highly competent leadership was rejected, while select automatons and feckless suits like Tom Ridge, have been placed in key roles in order discourage genuine ‘players’ from getting inside the financial grab-bag, reserved for the ruling class and their patrons. In the case of Ridge, I’m still aghast that the Justice Department has not acted on hundreds of allegations of steering contracts into companies that he has direct ties.

Torture ??? Canada ??? International watch lists ??? Not even in the Top 10. Oh, its sad, its disheartening, maddening and infuriating – but its only the beginning of sadness and misery at the hands of the madmen that we’ve permitted to change our Nation into a Kingdom.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061024-7.html

A “no-brainer” indeed!

BTW: waterboarding induces PTSD and leaves lasting psychological damage on the victim–the punishment is much more than just “an uncomfortable afternoon” as one loveable rightwinger recently suggested.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946065.html

What’s YOUR point exactly? Don’t state “But” if you mean “And”…

I’m an Anglophile!

That’s why most Americans, traveling abroad, spend a fair amount of time apologizing and explaining they did not even vote for him
- the first time OR the second time!

It’s still embarrassing to the US, to be sure.

A fair kingdom was attacked and the word went out, “Get information on our attackers; you have a free hand.”

At first the effort launched was disorganized, with untrained personnel, and wildly diverging methods.

There was a learning curve and eventually things settled down; delivery mechanisms and logistics were established and methodology standardized with the exception of a few vendors who went their own way until being cut out of the process.

Travelling teams of specialists “circuit rode” the network. Benefits were training level was higher, less loss of life, and less actors involved. Information gathering became more streamlined and efficient.

At its peak the system was impressive. That peak was three years ago or so. But the supply of raw material slackened and so various centers were shut down.

There was increased anxiety at the management level of legal repercussions and paper trails started being cleaned up. But the problem was that the helter-skelter efforts of the early period had left substantial trails.

Enter the Congress.