Tom Lantos speaking on the Torture Victim Relief Act of 1998

Tom Lantos, 1928-2008. Rest in Peace.

Please investigate on your own the GOP/DOJ’s role in ongoing prosecutions in Florida and Alabama. Mukasey is involved and so much the worse for him, since this is actionable stuff and I very much doubt the Democrats are going to let sleeping dogs lie in this case–unlike torture, they never signed off on this.

UNCAT specifically prohibits rendering detainees to situations where abuse is probable. But that’s what we did (and perhaps still are engaged in) for a very long time.

I wish fervently that there would be a universal prohibition against states inflicting pain on people. Someday we are going to climb up out of the darkness.

Incidentally, I tried sending a clip from this article with the WP link last night, twice, and it didn’t go through and again, just now, thinking it may have been because of the near blizzard we were having here last night. Maybe it’s just the planets ie Mercury Retrograde -anybody else care to weigh in? Or maybe it’s the link I’ve now left off. JT?

Back to out discussion…

Memo Offered Justification for Use of Torture
Justice Dept. Gave Advice in 2002

By Dana Priest and R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, June 8, 2004; Page A01

In August 2002, the Justice Department advised the White House that torturing al Qaeda terrorists in captivity abroad “may be justified,” and that international laws against torture “may be unconstitutional if applied to interrogations” conducted in President Bush’s war on terrorism, according to a newly obtained memo.

If a government employee were to torture a suspect in captivity, “he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the Al Qaeda terrorist network,” said the memo, from the Justice Department’s office of legal counsel, written in response to a CIA request for legal guidance. It added that arguments centering on “necessity and self-defense could provide justifications that would eliminate any criminal liability” later.

Two previous reports were issued on abuses in Iraq. One finds fault at the highest levels of the Pentagon, and a second focuses on military intelligence.

The memo seems to counter the pre-Sept. 11, 2001, assumption that U.S. government personnel would never be permitted to torture captives. It was offered after the CIA began detaining and interrogating suspected al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan and elsewhere in the wake of the attacks, according to government officials familiar with the document.

The legal reasoning in the 2002 memo, which covered treatment of al Qaeda detainees in CIA custody, was later used in a March 2003 report by Pentagon lawyers assessing interrogation rules governing the Defense Department’s detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. At that time, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had asked the lawyers to examine the logistical, policy and legal issues associated with interrogation techniques.

Bush administration officials say flatly that, despite the discussion of legal issues in the two memos, it has abided by international conventions barring torture, and that detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere have been treated humanely, except in the cases of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq for which seven military police soldiers have been charged.

Still, the 2002 and 2003 memos reflect the Bush administration’s desire to explore the limits on how far it could legally go in aggressively interrogating foreigners suspected of terrorism or of having information that could thwart future attacks.

In the 2002 memo, written for the CIA and addressed to White House Counsel Alberto R. Gonzales, the Justice Department defined torture in a much narrower way, for example, than does the U.S. Army, which has historically carried out most wartime interrogations.

In the Justice Department’s view — contained in a 50-page document signed by Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee and obtained by The Washington Post — inflicting moderate or fleeting pain does not necessarily constitute torture. Torture, the memo says, “must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death.”

By contrast, the Army’s Field Manual 34-52, titled “Intelligence Interrogations,” sets more restrictive rules. For example, the Army prohibits pain induced by chemicals or bondage; forcing an individual to stand, sit or kneel in abnormal positions for prolonged periods of time; and food deprivation. Under mental torture, the Army prohibits mock executions, sleep deprivation and chemically induced psychosis.

Human rights groups expressed dismay at the Justice Department’s legal reasoning yesterday.

“It is by leaps and bounds the worst thing I’ve seen since this whole Abu Ghraib scandal broke,” said Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch. “It appears that what they were contemplating was the commission of war crimes and looking for ways to avoid legal accountability. The effect is to throw out years of military doctrine and standards on interrogations.”

But a spokesman for the White House counsel’s office said, “The president directed the military to treat al Qaeda and Taliban humanely and consistent with the Geneva Conventions.”

Mark Corallo, the Justice Department’s chief spokesman, said “the department does not comment on specific legal advice it has provided confidentially within the executive branch.” But he added: “It is the policy of the United States to comply with all U.S. laws in the treatment of detainees — including the Constitution, federal statutes and treaties.” The CIA declined to comment.

The Justice Department’s interpretation for the CIA sought to provide guidance on what sorts of aggressive treatments might not fall within the legal definition of torture.

The 2002 memo, for example, included the interpretation that “it is difficult to take a specific act out of context and conclude that the act in isolation would constitute torture.” The memo named seven techniques that courts have considered torture, including severe beatings with truncheons and clubs, threats of imminent death, burning with cigarettes, electric shocks to genitalia, rape or sexual assault, and forcing a prisoner to watch the torture of another person.

“While we cannot say with certainty that acts falling short of these seven would not constitute torture,” the memo advised, “. . . we believe that interrogation techniques would have to be similar to these in their extreme nature and in the type of harm caused to violate law.”

“For purely mental pain or suffering to amount to torture,” the memo said, “it must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years.” Examples include the development of mental disorders, drug-induced dementia, “post traumatic stress disorder which can last months or even years, or even chronic depression.”

Of mental torture, however, an interrogator could show he acted in good faith by “taking such steps as surveying professional literature, consulting with experts or reviewing evidence gained in past experience” to show he or she did not intend to cause severe mental pain and that the conduct, therefore, “would not amount to the acts prohibited by the statute.”

In 2003, the Defense Department conducted its own review of the limits that govern torture, in consultation with experts at the Justice Department and other agencies. The aim of the March 6, 2003, review, conducted by a working group that included representatives of the military services, the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the intelligence community, was to provide a legal basis for what the group’s report called “exceptional interrogations.”

Much of the reasoning in the group’s report and in the Justice Department’s 2002 memo overlap. The documents, which address treatment of al Qaeda and Taliban detainees, were not written to apply to detainees held in Iraq.

In a draft of the working group’s report, for example, Pentagon lawyers approvingly cited the Justice Department’s 2002 position that domestic and international laws prohibiting torture could be trumped by the president’s wartime authority and any directives he issued.

At the time, the Justice Department’s legal analysis, however, shocked some of the military lawyers who were involved in crafting the new guidelines, said senior defense officials and military lawyers.

“Every flag JAG lodged complaints,” said one senior Pentagon official involved in the process, referring to the judge advocate generals who are military lawyers of each service.

“It’s really unprecedented. For almost 30 years we’ve taught the Geneva Convention one way,” said a senior military attorney. “Once you start telling people it’s okay to break the law, there’s no telling where they might stop.”

A U.S. law enacted in 1994 bars torture by U.S. military personnel anywhere in the world. But the Pentagon group’s report, prepared under the supervision of General Counsel William J. Haynes II, said that “in order to respect the President’s inherent constitutional authority to manage a military campaign . . . [the prohibition against torture] must be construed as inapplicable to interrogations undertaken pursuant to his Commander-in-Chief authority.”

The Pentagon group’s report, divulged yesterday by the Wall Street Journal and obtained by The Post, said further that the 1994 law barring torture “does not apply to the conduct of U.S. personnel” at Guantanamo Bay.

It also said the anti-torture law did apply to U.S. military interrogations that occurred outside U.S. “maritime and territorial jurisdiction,” such as in Iraq or Afghanistan. But it said both Congress and the Justice Department would have difficulty enforcing the law if U.S. military personnel could be shown to be acting as a result of presidential orders.

The report then parsed at length the definition of torture under domestic and international law, with an eye toward guiding military personnel about legal defenses.

The Pentagon report uses language very similar to that in the 2002 Justice Department memo written in response to the CIA’s request: “If a government defendant were to harm an enemy combatant during an interrogation in a manner that might arguably violate criminal prohibition, he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the al Qaeda terrorist network,” the draft states. “In that case, DOJ [Department of Justice] believes that he could argue that the executive branch’s constitutional authority to protect the nation from attack justified his actions.”

The draft goes on to assert that a soldier’s claim that he was following “superior orders” would be available for those engaged in “exceptional interrogations except where the conduct goes so far as to be patently unlawful.” It asserts, as does the Justice view expressed for the CIA, that the mere infliction of pain and suffering is not unlawful; the pain or suffering must be severe.

A Defense Department spokesman said last night that the March 2003 memo represented “a scholarly effort to define the perimeters of the law” but added: “What is legal and what is put into practice is a different story.” Pentagon officials said the group examined at least 35 interrogation techniques, and Rumsfeld later approved using 24 of them in a classified directive on April 16, 2003, that governed all activities at Guantanamo Bay. The Pentagon has refused to make public the 24 interrogation procedures.

Staff writer Josh White contributed to this report.

http://thephoenix.com/Article.aspx?id=54659&page=2

And now, here’s Harvey!

p.s. I watched him and Andy Good defend Louise Woodward in the 1998
“Nanny Case” in Boston. He and Andy are formidable Criminal defense attorneys.

Look, Mespo, you do have a valid point that I think we have to admit despite the intrinsic outrageousness of the situation.

I have never been interested in going after the low-level
“technicians” who actually did the torturing. They were “just following orders” and reasonably thought that the orders given them were lawful. That being so since DOJ was the source of the legal advisories that torturing was lawful, how could DOJ then investigate itself? And for what…bad lawyering?

The key is the testimony that we will never hear. That of the preparers of the memos in question. It is my contention that they were given marching orders from OVP to produce a certain legal product and they compliantly did so. It is extremely likely that they knew the arguments in their product were spurious. It wasn’t a defect in research or craftsmanship, it was a results-driven enterprise to justify an illegal activity on orders from their superiors. The Lawyers Case does come to my mind…

DW

Are you advocating entrapment by estoppel as the defense for the torturers? What do you make of US v Neville 7th Cir 1996?

Patty C: we may be related albeit distantly as my ancestors also came over in the 1600’s and were members of the church Gov Bradford (First Congregational if memory serves) attended. My maternal grandmother always sniffed at DAR pretensions and refused to join. More lately though we have been variously judges, horse-thiefs, neer-do-wells (myself) and characters of all stripes. Like VC many of our lines came over in the more recent past and Ellis Island in-processed many of my line as well.

As to Mukasey. I have to respectfully disagree with Mespo. Pragmatic practicalities are not an exemption from the oath he took. But I am unsure of the “governmental authority” defence Mespo cites: is this equivalent to a Nuremburg Defense? If it differs, how so?

Thank God I don’t have to ask your permission-for anything.

So far, a case can be made that Mukasey has lied under oath while giving sworn testimony and, although I didn’t see the secret, rush, Friday afternoon, ceremony on 11/9, I presume he also when he was sworn into Office.

On those bases alone, as I had repeatedly called for with Fredo, and now Mukasey, he should be disbarred and removed as non-qualified.

He is not, nor were his previous predecessor(s), George Bush’s private attorney.

He works for us and he is not doing doing his job, with regard to proceeding in a meaningful way with the various criminal investigation matters still pending.

The President et al did not have the right to break the law nor to ask government lawyers, at our expense, to assist him et al in breaking of the law or in doing an end run around the Constitution. Any legal opinions to that end were ‘made up’. Any argument stating that acting on their positions was “the law at the time” is, likewise,’made up’.

Nobody told me that – I made it up just for you!

My heritage has a lot to do with me, obviously. You implied I that my ideals are nonsense and that I was living in a fantasy world.

“…Patty C: No drugs, I am just not swept up in any idealistic nonsense. Your world may be the better place, but we live in this one and no AG is going to hang his President out to dry and this guy is no different….”

I am not a Philosophy buff, but I am pretty sure the founders were not pragmatists – in the extreme. They knew what the truth was based on their experience. The Constitution was not the merely the product of wishful thinking. They were passionate people who debated and struggled – long and hard.

For your information, as a philosophical movement, pragmatism didn’t even come into being until the late 1800’s – after the Constitution had been around for a hundred years.

As for my family heritage – they stepped off a boat, set foot on a rock called Ellis Island and they once took me there in a Plymouth.

They are some of the greatest Americans that have ever lived.

“…I agree his recent statements are troublesome, especially his refusal to enforce contempt citations for those ignoring Congressional subpoenas, but I will withhold judgment until I see more…

…As such, Mukasey may feel that DOJ, which is clothed with the actual authority to render such opinions, is a witness in the caseand must ethically stand down from any investigation.”
First of all, you (nor I, for that matter) have no idea what his intentions were in taking the job. We have an upcoming election and he has a lot of political connections already – including, now former Presidential candidate, Giuliani and nominator, Sen. Schumer (D-NY)
and supporter Dianne Feinstein and by association, her husband, Richard Blum.

Secondly, having been subjected to Fredo’s nonsense you must be a glutton for punishment since ‘this guy’ has been jerking everybody’s chain for three months already.

If he is an honorable man and/or concerned about being challenged, ethically or otherwise, he is then/now compelled to appoint a
Special Prosecutor – which is what we have been calling for since before his arrival.

By the way, I am absolutely swept up in idealism and proud of it
-have been my entire life. My ancestors came over on the Mayflower and fought in the Revolution. One, William Bradford, was one of the first Governors of one of the original 13 Colonies-Massachusettes, which included MA,ME,plus areas of VT,and upstate NY.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, as they say.

Congress, as a result of the McCarthy hearings, clearly laid low for a number of years because of the ostensible misuse of their power and mob style tactics, obliterating freedoms and inspiring retribution and vigilantism. Now the antithesis is playing out, whereby Congress appears not only to be neutered, but seemingly … under their own knife. And, I agree with others here, this willing deconstruction of American National Government is most disturbing. That’s precisely why I also signed Rep. Wexler’s petition, if nothing else, to send a message to the Democratic leadership. I’m convinced though, that we won’t make any significant headway until there is a viable third party to disrupt the political machinery, and re-focus our elected and appointed leaders to perfecting our representative government.

“During hearings in the Judiciary Committee yesterday, I told Attorney General Michael Mukasey that I called for impeachment hearings because of the stonewalling and blatant abuses of the Bush Administration. He responded by stating that he will NOT enforce a contempt of Congress citation against Harriet Miers and White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten for refusing to testify before Congress. The video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7M9sjRLCtQ

Alberto Gonzales may be long gone, but the Bush Administration continues its executive overreach with the new Attorney General.

We can debate the need for Impeachment hearings. We can argue its effects on the election or our agenda. But one thing is abundantly clear:

If Congress’ right to require testimony is undermined, then our country’s leaders – Democrat, Republican, or Independent – will be immune from accountability”

It’s that last line that makes my skin crawl. No one in Congress seems to care—or they care very much and WANT it that way which is even scarier.

He, like the President who ‘elevated’ him et al, has to answer to us, as in We, the People, most of whom are adults and patriots living west of the Distrct.

Moreover, anyone with a modicum of legal training, most of all a former federal district judge, knows that.

In fact, he took an Oath – swearing to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Personally, I would have been very pleased if he had refused to answer the question of whether water-boarding is torture, citing the obvious political context of the questions, and the dramatic effects his answers could have on the American taxpayer. Say it in the open. Tell them … with the TV cameras running that you weren’t going to permit their particular politics to further harm the US. That stopping suspected torture was a much more important issue than placing blame right now.

Now that would have clearly put the ball in Congresses lap to act like adults and patriots.

Chuck Schumer, Diane Fienstien, deal brokers at large, wise as wisdom teeth, should also be extracted. At least 100 years of literary inspiration came from Marie Antoinette’s invocation of this same type of hubris – as removed from the vision of the people as it is removed from central themes of their respective oaths of office.

The only thing missing from this theater is a revival of the Warren Commission to provide some chuckles, if that were at all possible.

Further, Mukasey said that he would NOT enforce any contempt citations Congress might issue in respect to non-appearance of subpoened Administration officials.

As I said weeks ago, the DOJ has transformed into a defense law firm for the Executive.

Meanwhile DOJ-approved political persecutions (for want of a better descriptor) are ongoing in Alabama and elsewhere.

If there is anyone left on the bus who does not believe that impeachment is the only proper response, please reconsider.

Don’t let outrage-fatigue numb your intellect.

And when that Special Prosecutor/Investigator is appointed – please let it be Jonathan Turley!

President Bush, in an Executive Order, states that all Senate confirmed
appointees of his administration will continue on throughout the next
administration. Once confirmed, he stated, they cannot be removed from
office….the President stated that the Justice Department staff carefully researched this interpretation of the law and confirmed that
this was an appropriate and legal action.

More on this at 11:00PM here at Fox News.

“Clueless” is an apt description, at this stage. Perhaps it’s time to send out a sample of the ever popular Senate Bean Soup for Toxicology Lab analysis.