Comments on: House Fails to Override Bush’s Veto of Torture Bill

By: Patty C

Patty C — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:51:11 +0000

“…McCain bears a lot of responsibility for it, because, if he had broken with Bush, then some Republicans would have followed his lead.”

Something major happened with McCain a few years back amd it’s hard to say what exactly. But he stopped being an independent voice.

I haven’t heard any one else say it so I will. I shall not be surprised if/when the Bushes/Cheney et al hang him out to dry over his (un)natural born US status, but not IF/UNTIL it suits their purposes.

I don’t trust them, their tactics, mor our guaranteed process anymore.

By: Henry

Henry — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:27:46 +0000

deeply worried writes, “The uniformity of the Republican vote (excepting two states) was astounding considering that an issue of conscience was on the table.” It is also astounding considering how unpopular Bush is. McCain bears a lot of responsibility for it, because, if he had broken with Bush, then some Republicans would have followed his lead.

By: rafflaw

rafflaw — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 01:06:15 +0000

Mespo,
I am so old that I remember Adlai Stevenson. Maybe msnbc bs’er should read some of Adlai’s writings. As I think of it, Obama’s demeanor reminds me of Adlai.

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:47:50 +0000

DW:
I knew it! Your posts make sense, and there’s wit behind them. And yes, we very few still remain. One more quote to get you by and I think appropriate to our little salon:

Freedom rings where opinions clash.
—-Adlai E. Stevenson

By: deeply worried

deeply worried — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:56:19 +0000

Mespo!

There are still Adlai Stevenson fans!? You are a person of great good taste!

DW (another A.S. fan)

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:35:06 +0000

Rufflaw:

I ‘m an Adlai Stevenson fan so you know I ‘m going to say about msnbcbser’s style of argument that “he who slings mud generally loses ground.”

By: Susan

Susan — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:12:29 +0000

Mespo, I have yet to see “msnbc bser” make ANY cogent points. So far, all I’ve seen are personal attacks against anyone who criticizes George II and his buddies.

By: Susan

Susan — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:53:43 +0000

Mespo727272:

You thoughts are spot on. Another philosopher put it this way:

“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.”

–Friedrich Nietzsche
*******************************

This one’s very good. There’s another Chinese (I think) proverb that basically said he (or she) who seeks power over others should never be trusted with it. Unfortunately, I don’t have a name for the Chinese saying.

By: rafflaw

rafflaw — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:01:48 +0000

mespo727272,
My Bad.

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:27:54 +0000

rufflaw:

On your comment to msnbcbser above, could you point out to me the occasion when he made a “cogent point”?

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:26:14 +0000

Jill:

As for your very interesting question, I suspect you would not have standing to bring suit to say enjoin the process given your lack of demonstrable legal harm. I don’t think a writ of Qui Tam would help much either here. JT could address this point more fully, of course. I think the victims may have standing, but proof would be almost insurmountable given the classified nature of the evidence. Unfortunately, torture needs to be rooted out by an independent international body if it isstate sponsored, since the government perpetrators and their willing apparatchicks have every reason to hide the evidence away as state secrets.

By: rafflaw

rafflaw — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 03:50:30 +0000

msnbc bs’er,
Is it possible for you to try to make a cogent point without making personal attacks? First of all, simply being aware of the torture tactics is not the same as ordering it and lying about it. If you could actually do some research, you would know that any Congress person or Senator who publicly disclosed the tactics, could be brought up on charges of disclosing secrets. Secondly, as usual your facts are not accurate. You may want to check into the letter sent by one of he House leadership that objected to the so-called “enhanced interrogation” tactics. But I expect that from you. But, with that said, if the evidence leads to any official, they should be charged. Unlike a hack like yourself, I do care for justice and if Dems get caught in it, so be it. We will be a better nation if any and all parties who have broken the law are brought to justice. I do know that your buddy, George and his friends will be first in line. I am sure that Senator Feingold would prefer if you would spell his name correctly. I am used to you screwing up my name. By the way, George called and asked if you had finished licking his boots yet.

By: msnbc bs 'er

msnbc bs 'er — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:55:08 +0000

Raflaw: I am still laughing at your post.

Imagine “retired” President Bush and VP Cheney in a Senate hearing both reading off the list of Democratic party Senators that were fully informed, involved, and had approved every level of the methods used to extract information. Heck, Harry Reid would be one of them listed along with Russ Fiengold!

So you really REALLY think the Democrats want this on the front page “Bush lists 12 Democratic Senators that approved extraction methods” followed the next day by “Cheney provides documents evidencing full House Leadership approved extraction methods”.

LOL. YOu are a joke; you cannot think politically beyond the end of your nose!

By: msnbc bs 'er

msnbc bs 'er — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:50:11 +0000

rafflaw: are you going to send Jay Rockefeller and the whole Senate Intelligence Committee to jail also since they were part of the “informed” on what we were doing to extract information?

How many other Senate Committee members that were fully informed and brifed should we indict? Do you really think Democratic leadership wants to frog march their own party Senators to jail just to get a former President?

You and several others here have screws loose.

By: Jill

Jill — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 01:44:01 +0000

I know I’ve wondered this before but I must ask. As torture is illegal, do we as citizens have any way of bringing suit against the perpetrators? Is there an international court that we could go to? What are the legal options open to citizens, if any?

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:48:03 +0000

fRanco:

You thoughts are spot on. Another philosopher put it this way:

“He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.”

–Friedrich Nietzsche

By: mespo727272

mespo727272 — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:33:27 +0000

msnbcbser:

“Thank God we have a President who stands up to Congress.” Yeah who needs popularly elected representatives when we have such a fine leader supported by about 22% of the people who is even now holding the line in support of torture. C’mon now msnbc admit it. I know you are typing this drivel while standing at full stiff arm salute with your jackboots shined and listening to Wagner operas.

By: rafflaw

rafflaw — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 00:25:53 +0000

There is no need to have Congress overrule the veto. We just have to wait a few more months before George W. will be out of office and subject to prosecution in the U.S. and internationally for ordering torture. Torture is already illegal as Patty C. has mentioned and I am confident that the next Attorney General will investigate and indict those who have committed these grievous acts of torture. The next AG will also investigate those that ordered the torture including those OLC attorneys who profferred the bogus opinions to authorize it for George and his fellow felons. Thank God we will soon have a Democratic President and an impartial Justice department who will stand up to the immoral and illegal acts perpetrated by the Bush administration.

By: Patty C

Patty C — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:45:37 +0000

Torture was illegal then, continues to be illegal now, and will be in the future – no matter what Bush et al did or what they/he say he did in the past.

JT would know better, but I doubt the signing or lack thereof matters
- much. If anything I think it signals they believe they were on shakily revised and questionable legal grounds in the former.

We’ve heard the saying “wouldn’t want to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

By: msnbc bs 'er

msnbc bs 'er — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 22:23:13 +0000

Thank God we have a President who stands up to Congress.

By: Bob Esq.

Bob Esq. — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:06:11 +0000

“The fact is that waterboarding was already criminal. It was long defined as a war crime. However, Democrats have struggled to pretend that there is some ambiguity in the status of waterboarding to excuse their own failure to act.”

What a shocker.

By: deeply worried

deeply worried — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:23:42 +0000

An almost straight party-line vote. The uniformity of the Republican vote (excepting two states) was astounding considering that an issue of conscience was on the table. You would have expected at least 40 affirmative votes from their side. But the party discipline there is so terribly strong, that you really can’t call them legislators anymore, they are simply vote machines programmed by the leadership. It is actually an embarrassment to watch them vote at times like this as the moral bankruptcy is so terribly, terrifically, shamefully evident.

The Dem leadership shares the blame.

By: Susan

Susan — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:25:04 +0000

Arabella, I agree; in fact, I’ll say I’m DISGUSTED with this Congress! From what I have seen of them, they have done absolutely nothing to check the President’s unhealthy lust for torture in his ludicrous claim that it “keeps America safe.” Yeah. Right. What these “geniuses” in Congress fail to realize is the danger to THEMSELVES if the President for any reason decides that one of them is an “enemy combatant” (ie terrorist), or someone in their family. We’re rapidly heading into a police state, if we’re not there already, and as far as I’m concerned, this Congress helped bring this clear and present danger to ALL American citizens to pass.

By: Franco

Franco — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:23:04 +0000

This is crazy. We WILL win (or have we already won) this “war” on “terror”….and when we do, we will look at ourselves and ask, what have we become? Our nation’s history in NOT endorsing torture defined us, it sent a message to the world about our morals and value of human life. Are we to throw that all down the drain for this phony and prolonged “war”? I think not. While some may argue that this viewpoint is too theortical and not practical in today’s day and age, I disagree. Do we spend all this $ on army intelligence, spies, technology, etc, just to end up strapping a guy to a board and simulate drowning? Bush called torture ‘the most valuable tool’ in this war. The MOST valuable? Really? What year is it, who are we, what have we become? …At least I can count myself out of “we”….

By: Arabella

Arabella — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:41:41 +0000

I am so OVER this Congress. Spitzer resigns because he spent some serious money on call girls (and got caught), while this President not only remains in office, but digs the Presidency deeper into unconstitutional HE** – wiretaps (perhaps what snagged Spitzer – I didn’t think he was a foreign agent), politicizing the DOJ, appointing crony jurists, and now virtually guaranteeing this country’s use of torture in perpetuity.