Comments on: Court Rules that Mentally Disturbed Defendants Can Be Competent to Stand Trial But Incompetent to Represent Themselves http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/ Res ipsa loquitur ("The thing itself speaks") Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:48:35 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Anonymously Yours http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-49716 Anonymously Yours Sun, 26 Apr 2009 01:37:54 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-49716 Evelyn Smith, I am not aware if the policy of this list serve or law blawg is the correct place to be asking these questions. However, if you city they have attorneys that might be able to help you. If not consult the state Bar in that state and ask them if you can have a telephone number of an attorney that can help you or point you in the correct direction. Such as the Public defenders organization of the American Civil Liberties Union also known as ACLU. If what you tell this list serve you might have other options to consider, However, I do not feel that anyone here including Attorneys can give you information which is sufficient in a privileged and confidential manner that would be protected under the Attorney Client relationship. What you have stated in what they have done to your son raises a whole host of Appealable issues, I would think and other protections under the American with Disabilities Act also known as the ADA. If I am incorrect I would hope that someone more seasoned could help you. It appears mame that you are somewhat computer literate, you might try Lawyers.com or google up the ALCU and also if you google up Civil Rights Attorneys some should show up on the computer screen. Best of luck to you. Evelyn Smith,

I am not aware if the policy of this list serve or law blawg is the correct place to be asking these questions.

However, if you city they have attorneys that might be able to help you. If not consult the state Bar in that state and ask them if you can have a telephone number of an attorney that can help you or point you in the correct direction. Such as the Public defenders organization of the American Civil Liberties Union also known as ACLU.

If what you tell this list serve you might have other options to consider, However, I do not feel that anyone here including Attorneys can give you information which is sufficient in a privileged and confidential manner that would be protected under the Attorney Client relationship.

What you have stated in what they have done to your son raises a whole host of Appealable issues, I would think and other protections under the American with Disabilities Act also known as the ADA.

If I am incorrect I would hope that someone more seasoned could help you.

It appears mame that you are somewhat computer literate, you might try Lawyers.com or google up the ALCU and also if you google up Civil Rights Attorneys some should show up on the computer screen.

Best of luck to you.

]]> By: evelyn smith http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-49715 evelyn smith Sun, 26 Apr 2009 01:21:09 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-49715 my son was made to repesent him self and the judge knew he has mental promables and he can't read or read. his attorney withdrew on the spot to be his wittness and the made him be own attorney and was allowed to really question the officers.who had but him a restrianed chair and had handcuffed and chains on him they drove him out of his mind because they didn't give him his medinice and teased him and we don't know to get some one to sue these so called law in forcement my son was made to repesent him self and the judge knew he has mental promables and he can’t read or read. his attorney withdrew on the spot to be his wittness and the made him be own attorney and was allowed to really question the officers.who had but him a restrianed chair and had handcuffed and chains on him they drove him out of his mind because they didn’t give him his medinice and teased him and we don’t know to get some one to sue these so called law in forcement

]]> By: Elder’s Law: Demented 91-Year Old Found Competent to Stand Trial « JONATHAN TURLEY http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-30890 Elder’s Law: Demented 91-Year Old Found Competent to Stand Trial « JONATHAN TURLEY Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:52:36 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-30890 [...] It is certainly true that the standard for competency in many states has become so low that it is legally meaningless in many cases. This parallels the narrowing of the insanity defense itself, which does not include irresistible impulse in most states any longer, here. [...] [...] It is certainly true that the standard for competency in many states has become so low that it is legally meaningless in many cases. This parallels the narrowing of the insanity defense itself, which does not include irresistible impulse in most states any longer, here. [...]

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]]> By: Michael Spindell http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-15134 Michael Spindell Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:09:01 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-15134 Bob pretty much sums up my feeling about representing oneself in court. However, I think that people should have a right to be that foolish, or that crazy, with their freedom and life at stake. The problem is the system and its definition of mental incompetence. I would suggest that anyone who wants to represent themselves in court might well be mentally incompetent. However, like everything else regarding the law there are caveats. We know that there are many people who are represented by public defenders, or pro bono lawyers, who are poorly and/or incompetently represented. Also many Legal Aid Attorneys are dedicated, competent and idealistic, but carry caseloads that severely limit their effectiveness. Most of us who post here will be lucky enough to find good legal help when we need it. However, what does an indigent person, being represented by an indifferent (or incompetent) attorney do and how do they even determine the ability of their legal representation? It seems to me that attorneys are on a par with physicians when it comes to self policing. Bob pretty much sums up my feeling about representing oneself in court.
However, I think that people should have a right to be that foolish, or that crazy, with their freedom and life at stake. The problem is the system and its definition of mental incompetence. I would suggest that anyone who wants to represent themselves in court might well be mentally incompetent.

However, like everything else regarding the law there are caveats. We know that there are many people who are represented by public defenders, or pro bono lawyers, who are poorly and/or incompetently represented. Also many Legal Aid Attorneys are dedicated, competent and idealistic, but carry caseloads that severely limit their effectiveness. Most of us who post here will be lucky enough to find good legal help when we need it. However, what does an indigent person, being represented by an indifferent (or incompetent) attorney do and how do they even determine the ability of their legal representation? It seems to me that attorneys are on a par with physicians when it comes to self policing.

]]> By: elizann http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-15099 elizann Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:21:16 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-15099 Being competent and having knowledge of legal expertise in case law from states and the U.S. Supreme Court are no comparison. The trickery of prosecutors and judges in false statements need to be handled by a trial attorney who is well read in the law and in the case he is representing. All evidence needs to be presented - every little piece. All physical and mental medical records. An accused can sit in jail and become physical worn down which decreases his mental capibilities of self-represention. The jury that is picked in some district courts are not the most educated. Juries are sometimes intimidated by the prosecution, as are witnesses, especially in small districts. Good trial attorneys are aware of prosecutor tricks with evidence, demeaning the accused, and sometimes misinterpeting the truth. Being competent and having knowledge of legal expertise in case law from states and the U.S. Supreme Court are no comparison. The trickery of prosecutors and judges in false statements need to be handled by a trial attorney who is well read in the law and in the case he is representing. All evidence needs to be presented – every little piece. All physical and mental medical records. An accused can sit in jail and become physical worn down which decreases his mental capibilities of self-represention. The jury that is picked in some district courts are not the most educated. Juries are sometimes intimidated by the prosecution, as are witnesses, especially in small districts. Good trial attorneys are aware of prosecutor tricks with evidence, demeaning the accused, and sometimes misinterpeting the truth.

]]> By: elizabeth http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-15098 elizabeth Mon, 23 Jun 2008 08:18:30 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-15098 Being competent and having knowledge of legal expertise in case law from states and the U.S. Supreme Court are no comparison. The trickery of prosecutors and judges in false statements need to be handled by a trial attorney who is well read in the law and in the case he is representing. All evidence needs to be presented - every little piece. All physical and mental medical records. An accused can sit in jail and become physical worn down which decreases his mental capibilities of self-represention. The jury that is picked in some district courts are not the most educated. Juries are sometimes intimidated by the prosecution, as are witnesses, especially in small districts. Good trial attorneys are aware of prosecutor tricks with evidence, demeaning the accused, and sometimes misinterpeting the truth. In the interest of a fair and just trial every criminal defendant should have a well read trial attorney who know every step of the case. Without a lawyer knowing the case, the defendant, competent or not, may as well throw up his hands and say 'take me'. And all judges are not fair. They are elected officials, not appointed by their fairness or their knowledge of constitutional law, and have little to no knowledge of physical or mental disabilities. Being competent and having knowledge of legal expertise in case law from states and the U.S. Supreme Court are no comparison. The trickery of prosecutors and judges in false statements need to be handled by a trial attorney who is well read in the law and in the case he is representing. All evidence needs to be presented – every little piece. All physical and mental medical records. An accused can sit in jail and become physical worn down which decreases his mental capibilities of self-represention. The jury that is picked in some district courts are not the most educated. Juries are sometimes intimidated by the prosecution, as are witnesses, especially in small districts. Good trial attorneys are aware of prosecutor tricks with evidence, demeaning the accused, and sometimes misinterpeting the truth. In the interest of a fair and just trial every criminal defendant should have a well read trial attorney who know every step of the case. Without a lawyer knowing the case, the defendant, competent or not, may as well throw up his hands and say ‘take me’. And all judges are not fair. They are elected officials, not appointed by their fairness or their knowledge of constitutional law, and have little to no knowledge of physical or mental disabilities.

]]> By: Bob, Esq. http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-15008 Bob, Esq. Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:01:12 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-15008 Is it me, or does this firmly cement the maxim: "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client" Is it me, or does this firmly cement the maxim:

“A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client”

]]> By: Michael Spindell http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-14958 Michael Spindell Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:52:26 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-14958 As a former psychotherapist, who spent many years dealing with people who were severely mentally disabled, my conclusion is that most laws and procedures dealing with insanity and competence have no reflection in reality. They are generally the product of Judges, lawyers and politicians who don't understand the ramifications of mental illness. Then too, to be fair, many mental health professionals also have little understanding of what they are doing. I'm not claiming any superior insight in this field, merely an expression of the fact that the scientific underpinning of mental health theory is weak and many practitioners sound far more authoritative than they have a right to be, given the evidence underlying their beliefs. We are years away from the law dealing sensibly with mental illness and competence. I'm sorry to say that in this case though I find myself siding with Scalia for the first time. Defending oneself at trial should not be based on the comfort level of the court. If one remembers the televised trial of the Long Island Railroad killer several years ago, his handling of his defense pretty much proved the proposition that he was insane. The old dictum of understanding the difference between right or wrong is not only puerile in terms of defining legal insanity, it's roots are more Judeo-Christian, than they are evolution of legal theory. As a former psychotherapist, who spent many years dealing with people who were severely mentally disabled, my conclusion is that most laws and procedures dealing with insanity and competence have no reflection in reality. They are generally the product of Judges, lawyers and politicians who don’t understand the ramifications of mental illness. Then too, to be fair, many mental health professionals also have little understanding of what they are doing.

I’m not claiming any superior insight in this field, merely an expression of the fact that the scientific underpinning of mental health theory is weak and many practitioners sound far more authoritative than they have a right to be, given the evidence underlying their beliefs. We are years away from the law dealing sensibly with mental illness and competence. I’m sorry to say that in this case though I find myself siding with Scalia for the first time.
Defending oneself at trial should not be based on the comfort level of the court.

If one remembers the televised trial of the Long Island Railroad killer several years ago, his handling of his defense pretty much proved the proposition that he was insane. The old dictum of understanding the difference between right or wrong is not only puerile in terms of defining legal insanity, it’s roots are more Judeo-Christian, than they are evolution of legal theory.

]]> By: whooliebacon http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-14955 whooliebacon Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:43:15 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-14955 So if a defendant during his/her judicial odyssey pleads temporary insanity, am I to assume the defendant would not be able to temporarily represent himself. So if a defendant during his/her judicial odyssey pleads temporary insanity, am I to assume the defendant would not be able to temporarily represent himself.

]]> By: Am I losing my mind? http://jonathanturley.org/2008/06/20/court-rules-that-mentally-disturbed-defendants-can-be-competent-to-stand-trial-but-incompetent-to-represent-themselves/#comment-14952 Am I losing my mind? Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:37:56 +0000 http://jonathanturley.wordpress.com/?p=2160#comment-14952 Wow - that changes everything. What about Godinez? For years, I have believed that competency to represent oneself is the same as competency to stand trial. Has anyone read this who can chime in with how the Court got around Godinez? Wow – that changes everything. What about Godinez? For years, I have believed that competency to represent oneself is the same as competency to stand trial. Has anyone read this who can chime in with how the Court got around Godinez?

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