Because there is something going on that is much bigger than our momentary happiness, something much larger than our personal discomfort with evil. God can – and will – abolish evil. Just because he does not do it according to your timing and your wisdom only proves that evil is inside you (for what creature has the right to question the creator?) and thus, if he wiped out all evil right now would need to wipe you out – and me!

There are answers to all questions, but the creature cannot demand answers from the creator. And people can’t handle that. Somehow, all the suffering anyone has ever gone through has been according to plan – although God does not cause it – and it will one day be made plain. But probably not today …

The idea is simple, but apparently a difficult one for many Evangelicals and Atheists, who both ignore the basic theme of the New Testament and free will. The concept Jesus taught, was man was responsible for mans actions, not God, and thus man must decide for himself exactly “what” the world he lives in will be.

Evangelicals and atheists both struggle with this simple concept that whether or not you believe in the New Testament, you cannot just dismiss as it is the prevailing theme of the ministry of Jesus, and since Jesus is the source of Christianity, supposedly, it would seem that Christians would get it, even if atheists do not. Jesus taught God was omnipotent in the since he created the earth and the cosmos but what we do with it, was our call.

According to Christian theology as presented in the 4 Gospels, man is the temporary caretaker of all before him, a job that includes a critical review at his termination interview.

Thats whats in the Gospels, so looking at the concept of God and demanding either he be in complete control of every thing that happens or he must be insignificant or impotent. If you bother to include the Gospels as they appear in the New Testament then this bi-polar view is not being forthcoming with the other beliefs out there that do not include atheism or fundamentalist evangelicals.

I dunno. Maybe Mespo’s quote book can clear this up.”
*****************

“Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?”

— Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief–the Epicurean Paradox.

Given the Suppression of Heresy by the mother Church for over 1700 years and more recently, the Protestant churches during the reformation and early settling of North America I’d not want to use that word lightly.

Which is the Church (starting with a capital C) that you refered to above? I do know many liberal christians who do not think of Bart Ehrman as a heretic, although anyone would say, as he openly admits, that he’s an agnostic. Certainly anyone should call Richard Dawkins an unbeliever, as he himself would.

My point to you is this. Why must christians only read other christians? Bart Ehrman is a very knowledgeable biblical scholar. He studied this subject for many years. He has read the texts in their original languages. He does not speak disrespectufully of christians or fail to associate with them in the present. He systematically addresses the different views of evil in the bible. You may not agree with his views but that doesn’t make him a heretic and it’s no reason not to read his work. I was also wondering what you mean when you call someone a heretic?

Thanks,

Jill

Reading a book by a Christian about what Chrisitans should be believing is like reading a book by a 4th grader about what 4th graders should be studying in school.

If you want to comprehend the concept of “why bad things happen”, in context of Christianity as taught in the Bible, you need look no further than the 4 Gospels. Jesus taught that free will determined what would happen to a man, not some sort of pre-destination as most Evangelicals teach.

Most people familiar with the life of Christ and his teachings, (supposedly Christians)should be aware of the concept of free will, which gives each individual endless options for chosing diverse actions under a lifetime full of situations. If someone runs into your car, its not because “God willed it”, but because someone either chose to drive into your car, or is a really crappy driver.

If someone gets murdered, its because someone chose to murder them, not because God decided to control someones mind and make them murder somebody.

Evangelicals teach their own form of Christianity not found in the 4 Gospels, but instead that takes its articles of faith from the Torah, and the Epistles, and wildley misinterpreting the book of Revelations. In the 4 Gospels, we learn from many passages, including this one, that free agency and random occurance are the catalysts of events in mortal life.

for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust -Matthew 5:45

Try getting away from the grips of your pastor for a few weeks, and read the 4 gospels, then compare that, to the version of Christianity you hear in the mega churches and from the Evangelicals.I think you’ll see the two concepts are poles apart.

I concur that I was launching a straw argument in that the context was more implied that verbally stated.

You are correct, that she was petitioning God that the Iraq war was his will, and that we were executing it faithfully.

But our paths diverge at the point of her implications I think, in that it is clear to me that her intention was to suggest it was, otherwise why ask that it is?

Her statements like a son telling his father, “Dad, I painted the garage red…. HOPE thats what you wanted”.

To ask for something to be Gods will AFTER the fact, is to simply tell God you did what you THOUGHT he wanted, hope it was ok.

She clearly believes the Iraq war is the will of God, as do the bulk of Evangelical Christians, if not all of them.

I still disagree with you that Palin should teach Sunday School or head the PTA. I hate to think of the PTA lead by anyone who advocates creationism in the schools. I’d hate to see a Sunday School teacher passing on the lack of understanding of knowledgeable Biblical scholarship and some really ignorant/counterproductive social teachings that she advocates

Jill.

After reading your disagreement with me I now find I agree with your disagreement, thus, find myself disagreeing with myself.

You are correct, and Palin belongs no where near any position where children or parents might take advice from her.

Don’t be afraid to read things by agnostics. Bart Erhman is not hateful or disrespectful of christians. He used to be an evangelical christian and his wife remains christian. I read books by christian writers and evaluate what they are actually saying. I also don’t know what Church you are refering to–there are so many who do consider him a heretic. Even so, that’s just name calling. If your faith is strong you should not be afraid to read anything by anyone.

That’s the way God planned it.

” …Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God,” she exhorted the congregants. “That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”…

This is a conundrum for believers. You have stated the problem accurately. It’s just that believers have many answers and qualifications to the tripartate nature of god. A really interesting book on this very issue is: God’s Problem, How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question–Why We Suffer by Bart Ehrman.

I dunno. Maybe Mespo’s quote book can clear this up.

Welcome back Mespo. Wow! Ask a busy person to do something, and it might get done.

I am hopelessly tied up with about 65 litigation files and a kid playing varsity FB. Lest you think lawyers aren’t appreciated I have been roped into filming the games, mastering the website, and my wife is team liason with the boosters. Funny how you are loved when available. You must know what I mean with all those new charges anxiously awaiting your interpretation of Palsgraf and maybe International Volkswagen plus your duties to the munchkins at home. Good to be back!

Query, if the war is God’s plan must not the events of 9-11 likewise be in God’s plan to follow the logic of the faithful?

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant. I still disagree with you that Palin should teach Sunday School or head the PTA. I hate to think of the PTA lead by anyone who advocates creationism in the schools. I’d hate to see a Sunday School teacher passing on the lack of understanding of knowledgeable Biblical scholarship and some really ignorant/counterproductive social teachings that she advocates.

I disagree with holding disdain for people who teach Sunday School or direct PTA meetings.

I wasn’t vocalizing disdain for these people Jill. Some of them are my best friends.

I was merely pointing out that that’s where Palin belongs, and NOT leading the entire Nation.

Those things are fine, however they in now way prepare someone to lead the most powerful nuclear armed nation in the world.

I agree that Palin very much mixes church and state, She’s a strong advocate of teaching creationism in the public schools and you can’t get more mixed up than that.

I disagree with holding disdain for people who teach Sunday School or direct PTA meetings. These are obviously not glamour jobs, but people who hold them may be quite intelligent/competent or they may be idiots. This is true of the most high powered jobs in our society, (see Bush, Ken Lay etc.). Class and job position cannot measure anyone’s worth or abilities.

If any thing it’s yet another example that Palin is highly sensitive to the church/state line that should not be crossed.

Yes, thats why as Governor shes delivering religious speeches to her church mingling concepts of government with religious matters.

Publically praying for the war to be “from God” after knowing it was built on a lie and was handled miserably, not only is she mixing church and state, she’s also none too bright at it. That’d be like praying for the trainwreck you just survived to “be from God”.

Shes a child. An intellecutal INFANT.

She belongs teaching Sunday School and directing PTA meetings. She belongs no where near anyplace where she gets to make decisions that impact real peoples lives.

That’s just not true. Conservative religious believers of many faiths do believe exactly that (but not all). Even more liberal believers think that much of what happens on earth, to include which team wins a sporting event, has the invisible hand of god behind it. But there are people who believe in god, and I don’t just mean diests, who do not think everything is part of god’s plans.

As I mentioned above. Even some very conservative evangelical believers do disconnect god from the military. Those are people who do not believe the war was an expression of god’s will. I have heard believers pray for every soldier and civilian killed or injured in this war be they Iraqi or American. These positions are quite different from Palin’s.

Cindy
1, September 3, 2008 at 9:43 am
Yep, Patty, she made a point of *not* saying Iraq is a task from God (or that it’s not),

No Cindy, you are wrong.

Here is her in here prayer, declaring the war a “task from God”.

Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God.

That is the only constitutional duty, and almost anyone should be able to carry it out capably, although Nelson Rockefeller was once able to screw it up.

If you watched HBO’s John Adams, please note that the VP does not vote to break ties on treaties, which require 2-3ds vote for ratification. As McCulloogh wrote in his book, Adams did not vote on the Jay Treaty, which passed by 20 to 10.

In a Washington Post interview, Karl Rove admits that the Sarah Palin pick was “not a governing decision but a campaign decision.

Also:

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain’s presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.
“This election is not about issues,” said Davis. “This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.”

Can the cynicism and contempt for voters by the GOP be any more apparent? Not a governing decision? What!!?? They’re actually willing to admit Gov. Palin is not qualified and that they fully intend to use her nomination to once again use the religious right for their votes and then discard them if elected.

I’m not sure who Rick Davis talks to, but every person I talk to–Democrats and Republicans alike are desperate for an issues oriented campaign. And here he is admitting they can’t win on the issues. They want us to believe we don’t want a President who’s too intellectual or too popular or that is a master of eloquence. Suddenly we’re supposed to believe we want as our representative of the free world someone who is inarticulate, low intelligence and no one likes. I think we’ve seen that act for the last eight years. Thanks, but no thanks.

” …Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God,” she exhorted the congregants. “That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”…

****

I’m no fan of McCain or his VP choice in Governor Palin, however, I read her comment here as more of a plea that the participants ‘Pray’ – on behalf of our soldiers, country, and leaders that somehow the Iraq War end up a positive for fear it will remain, in the minds and hearts of the world, as it appears thus far – undertaken at great expense for naught under false pretenses for less than noble purposes.

I’m convinced it’s going to take a lot more than prayer to do that, but we should probably take whatever help we can get at this stage.

“As for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?”

Sarah Palin

She rests our case.

Palin’s more a live and let live kind of person

Tell that to Bullwinkle.

Did not say “what”?

That it was “really cool” growing up in her church or that the Iraq war was a task from God?

Either way you’re wrong, she said them both…. but I’d just like you to be specific about which thing you’re incorrect in disagreeing with.

Since when does being ignorant constitute a qualification for Vice President?

She reminds me of Dana Perino, who is supposed to be the White House Press Secretary, but in reality is little more than a soccer mom\Evangelical Christian who hasn’t a clue about anything to do with the country or its history. This woman, didn’t even know about the Cuban Missile Crisis, and THIS qualifies her to be Press Secretary?

Or how about Monica Goodling? Who was made Principal Deputy Director of Public Affairs for the Department of Justice after earning a BA of Arts from Messiah U and a “Juris Doctor” from Pat Robertsons Regent U, just a FEW short years ago. She graduates in 1999, and a few years later she’s overseeing hiring and firing of United States Attorneys and making her choices based on whether they were republicans or democrats!

Was she evil and corrupt? Perhaps. But more likely she was just a testament to the value of a law degree from Pat Robertsons Regent U, not to mention hiring newly minted professionals to the top positions in land. She had NO experience. None. She was fresh out of college when she joined the republicans, and she was rewarded with one of the top jobs in the Department of Justice.

Or what about Harriet Myers? Being picked for the United States Supreme Court? LOL. Thankfully they stopped that one.

The fact is the republicans seem to want to put only weak, inexperienced women into positions of power, perhaps in a way of maintaining some modicum of the status quo. But for whatever reason they’re doing it they certainly seem to pick women who are sorely underqualified to the role they are presenting them for.

And now, once more John McCain’s done the same thing, by insulting all of our intelligences and picking one of the most ridiculously underqualified woman he could find to be his possible replacement for President of the United States.

The “NEW” republicanism is a celebration of stupidity.

Man-o-man I can’t wait for the debates.

From “The Origin of Medical Terms” by H. Alan Skinner printed 1949

Delusion: Latin – Delusio, a deceiving, from deludo, deceive or cheat
An absurd or unfounded belief, especially occuring in mental patients. In English in 15th century, probably through French.

Example: Sarah Palin is Delusional.

Schizophrenia: From the Greek ‘to split’ ‘the mind’
A name for ‘split personality’ coined by Eugen Bleuler as an alternative for dementia praecox. It appeared in his book “Textbook of Psychiatry”. The term has been used generally to mean dementia praecox but it is only one form of this condition.

Example: Sarah Palin exhibits signs of schizophrenia.

BTW, I’m told ‘Ano-olecranon-agnosia’ is medical shorthand used by some doctors while refering to hospital administrators.

ānō — ass

olecranon — elbow (the pointy part we refer to in speech)

agnosia — without knowledge

Example: Both George W. Bush and Sara Palin suffer from ano-olecranon agnosia.

Translation: Both George W. Bush and Sarah Palin don’t know their ass from their elbow.

Have a nice afternoon.

Seeing all the military planes and the flag on the giant screens he wondered, what does Jesus, the prince of peace, have to do with any of this

Nothing, other than maybe condemning it.

By the way Jill, if you listened to any of her opening remarks to the church, (you’ll only be able to stomach about 90 seconds of it prior to vomiting) it is amazing that anyone considered her mature or competent enough to be Governor.

She comes out waving to the crowd like she was Brittany Spears doing an impromptu guest appearance at a shopping mall, declaring “it was really cool growing up in this church“.

Yes, and I’m sure the Vice Presidency will be really “neato”.

I’m glad there are religious people willing to decouple militarism and god. Prophet Palin also links god with corporations. Jeff Sharlet’s book, The Family, discusses how free enterprise became fundamental to evangelicals. It took time and it took work for those two ideologies to meld.

About now I am thinking we should have the Saddleback Thunderdome God bull-shit throw down. Four visions of god in, only one out. We desperately need people who think clearly and deeply about issues and will act in the best interests of this country. Prophet Palin is not one of those people.