Un-Lucky Strikes: Saudi Arabia Sentences Man To 30 Lashes for Smoking on a Flight

lucky_strike_usaIf you think that American flight attendants have become a bit heavy handed, be grateful that you don’t fly Saudi Arabian Airlines flight. A man who refused to put his cigarette out on a flight to Jeddah was sentenced to 30 lashes.

The man reportedly said that he was on his way to a clinic to stop smoking. This would fall in the category of adverse therapy.

In some way, he got off easy. In April 2008, a man was sentenced to 50 lashes for smoking on board a Dammam-Riyadh Saudi flight.

78 thoughts on “Un-Lucky Strikes: Saudi Arabia Sentences Man To 30 Lashes for Smoking on a Flight

  1. “I guess liberals are all excited about this precident! Here we just get to throw smokers in jail.”

    1) Not our precedent. Despite Bush’s best efforts, We the People are neither subject to the retrograde laws of Saudi Arabia nor their barbaric legal traditions. It’s called The Constitution.

    2) Liberals by definition are less likely to give a damn if you smoke than anyone (except for children, any drug needs to be kept from children). Your lungs, your choice. In case you haven’t noticed, the Feds only care about tobacco ads on TV, taxes, smoking on planes and in Federal facilities, and sales to minors. The tobacco lobbyists made sure of that. Anti-smoking legislation is done piecemeal by city, county and/or state government. You cast a local political issue in a national cast. And all just to attempt to smear liberalism, a subject you have a clearly demonstrated lack of understanding of the underlying principles. You have a problem with a local ordinance? Be a man. Take it up with locals. Or you can whine about liberals some more. Because whine goes good with cheese.

  2. >>I guess liberals are all excited about this precident!

    Yes, we’re VERY excited about this PRESIDENT!!

    >>Here we just get to throw smokers in jail.

    In what country do “we” throw smokers in jail?

  3. so is a local ordinance banning smoking not a liberal platform?

    My guess is that when you get enough states you will make it a national law. Or if you get national health care then you liberals will really be able to have a field day. we will be up at 6 am doing jumping jacks and eating oatmeal for breakfast. the elderly will be mercy killed because of limited resources and abortions will be mandatory for people that have more than 2 children. Seems pretty free to me.

    Oh and we wont be able to have a cigar or a scotch or whiskey, only red wine (I guess that is what goes with liberal cheese) because of its health benefits.

  4. rcampbell:

    here is a little article from “reason hit and run”

    Yesterday I got an e-mail message from Michael Hafken, a public information specialist for the City of Calabasas, offering a “correction” of my column about the town’s new outdoor smoking ban:

    Please note that there is NO possible jail time for a violation of the Comprehensive Secondhand Smoke Control Ordinance in the City of Calabasas. Penalties range from warnings (most cases) to a potential $500 fine for extreme, repeated and willful violations. Violations are coded as infractions and NOT misdemeanors.

    I wrote back, pointing out that the ordinance says, “A violation of this ordinance shall constitute a misdemeanor punishable pursuant to chapter 1.16 of this code [which specifies a penalty of up to six months in jail and a $1,000 fine] unless the prosecutor determines to prosecute it as an infraction as authorized by section 1.16.010(a).” Ten hours later, I received this reply:

    You are correct regarding the ordinance text. I should have said that the City has publicly maintained that there are no plans to treat violations as misdemeanors. As is true of any violation of the City Code, we have a broad range of remedies, ranging from administrative fines (like parking tickets, which top out at $500), infractions (which also top out at $500), and full-blown misdemeanor prosecution. For the initial period of enforcement, the City only plans on educating people about the ordinance and issuing warnings. In extreme situations, such as repeated and willful violations, a fine may be levied as an infraction.

    I guess my point, poorly made in my previous email, was that there are no foreseeable instances where the City would arrest people and put them in jail for smoking under this ordinance. I apologize for any confusion.

    So the city’s position is that although it has the authority the put smokers in jail, it will never use that authority. If so, why put it in the ordinance to begin with?

  5. “So is a local ordinance banning smoking not a liberal platform?”

    No it’s not. In case you hadn’t noticed, at the local level there are a lot Republicans who favor anti-smoking legislation based on the fiscal conservative stance that it has a huge health care cost. There are also moderates of all flavors who favor it for health reason, not political. Once again, a classical liberal wouldn’t care if you smoked out of every orifice of your body. The modern liberals that you whine about usually agree with the conservatives about health costs and with everyone else about general health concerns.

    You keep looking for a justification for your hatred. We’ll keep protecting liberty.

  6. Buddha:

    ah I see says the blind man.

    so you are a classical liberal in the Jeffersonian model?

    And quite frankly as much as I hate to admit it some of what you say is why I am no longer a republican. I gave up on them some years ago.

    I was going to respond that over the last 30 years we have really had only one republican president-Reagan.

    A good deal of republicans are, as you correctly categorize them, theocrats, some are eastern rich white and liberal and the rest are shit out of luck (like me as in no party). Qutie frankly I dont really like Palin, she is quite the progressive if you listen to her and I am sure she has theocratic leanings. I personally wish someone would start a third party but some think that it would cause too much trouble as evidenced by the European model.

    Although our government seems to work best with a democrat president and a conservative congress as in part of the Bill Clinton years or the Reagan years with a conservative president and a mostly liberal congress.

    The ones that go to the evangelical free churches scare me the most, they do want a tyranny of God, by God and for God. No arguments on that one. And then most republicans are like Bush and his compassionate conservatism pretty much the same old big government bullshit except from the private sector.

    I direct you to an article by C. Bradley Thompson (he is a profeesor at Clemson University) on what is wrong with conservatism. I cant remember the exact title but it has conservative in the title. I actually think you would find it a good read.

    I add a half hearted “you liberal Nazi” so as not to loose my sense of balance

  7. Bron

    As is the case with many of your posts, I fail to see what point you’re trying to make. I live in the Mormon-dominated city of Mesa, AZ (stated solely to illustrate the CONSERVATIVE leanings of our local politics) where we’ve had no smoking laws governing office buildings, public buildings, bars and restaurants for about 15 years. I’m a former smoker who enjoyed it, but quit for long term health reasons. It has long been my stance that such restrictions are an infringement on a personal decisons, but a legitimate case can be made about public health concerns, to say nothing of the olfactory intrusions. Smokers come in all shapes, sizes, races, religions, political and sexual orientations as do the anti-smoking activists. Why you’re trying to make this an anti-liberal issue is beyond me.

  8. And don’t try distancing yourself from the GOP now. Talk about a train that’s left the station, Mr. What’s So Wrong With PNAC. Your attempts at appearing reasonable aren’t working very well. It’s a nice attempt at tactical adjustment, but like everything you’ve tried, not convincing and ultimately futile. What’s wrong with conservatism? Why people like you are, the social conservatives. You spew non-fact, vitriol and hatred like a mantra and then you dissemble, obfuscate or threaten when backed into a corner by reality. You can change tactics all you like. As you should have seen if you were paying attention, your targets can and do adjust faster and better to changing conditions than you are capable of. The reason you can’t win is your arguments are all ultimately based in wishful thinking. Wishing that social conservatism and trickle down economics have been not only totally discredited but are about to be marginalized right out of the system one way or another. Wishing that the ideals of the people you so blindly back hadn’t done more damage to this country’s legal system, economy and international standing than ANY terrorist could have accomplished EVER. Wishing that our infrastructure wasn’t left to rot under on the Republican’s watch. Wishing that history was as you THINK it is in contravention to established fact. Wishing that waterboarding isn’t torture by U.S. statute, case law and international treaty. Wishing that you didn’t know your stances fail because they all fall back to either illogic, inaccuracy in fact or definition or your simple burning irrational hatred. It’s not me proving any of this, but your very own actions and reactions.

    So trying to appear moderate won’t work. You already screwed that up.



  9. I pretty much think about the left the way you think about the right.

    since taxes and the fed creation things have gone downhill ever since. Oh for the days of the “robber barons”.

    Basically you are a big government good individual freedom bad kind of guy no matter how you slice it. Fact is you cant have it both ways government will always trample individual freedom. Big government is big government left or right.

    You think America is an evil force, I dont. All of your arguments are arguing for big government wether you know it or not. In fact most of the people on this site are big government types even though they say they are for individual freedom. government does nothing to protect our rights. And what I call liberals have been in charge of most branches of government for the last 75 years except for a few republican detours. So get off this I am for individual rights bullshit. You are either for individual rights or you are for big government you cant have it both ways.

    Yes Lincoln did suspend habeas corpus and it appears to me it was legal in light of the south removing itself from the union. He did it twice and it was restored in 1866.

    What do you think of Japanese internment? Now that really was a suspension of habeas corpus and approved by a liberal court. And somewhat similar to today.


    because it seems to me that most of that nonsense comes from the liberal side of the aisle.

  10. When errors are systemic to the basis of argument, not just the individual incidents, how would you address that, MAS?

  11. This could also be a cross talk created by definitional distinction. Social conservatism and cultural traditionalism are different. The difference being that one view is set that our way is only way even when proven wrong. The other is that we like to preserve tradition. However, traditions are not always good or right and what traditions one observes is ultimately up to the practitioner and the commonality to work out. Rigidity of thought vs. flexibility. I’ve used primogeniture as an example before of outmoded tradition being discarded. I have no problem with preserving cultural practices, but culture is a lot like religion when applied to the common good – it should inform, not dominate, policy decisions. Policy should be the realm of reason and fact, not preference.

  12. >>Rcampbell:

    >>because it seems to me that most of that nonsense comes from the >>liberal side of the aisle.

    Since my post amply dispelled that erroneous assumption, it’s pretty obvious that you’re wrong.

    And the government, big or small is US and has a role to play in citizens’ lives. Conservative philosophies have dominated American plitics since Reagan in 1980 (“Government is the problem. not the solution”). This includes Bill Clinton’s business-friendly term (“The era of big government is over”)and the Bush years, especially the disasterous most recent eight years nightmare of laissez-faire attitudes. Given the immense damage conservatives have done to this country over the past 30 years you’d be wise to reconsider their failed policies or at least be wise enough to not attempt to defend them. They, both the policies and the polititians who’ve practiced them, have failed the nation and there is no reason to give them further attention.

    As President Obama has said, the issue isn’t big or small, but effective government. The GOP has stated repeatedly that government doesn’t work and as sure as sunlight, whenever they’ve been in charge of the government they proved themselves incapable of running it effectively.

    The whole concept of conservatism, supply-side economics and laissez-faire dealings with business, etc., assumes that business owners will act in the best interests of the society as a whole, that they’ll supply good paying jobs at fair wages and a stable environment to conduct business. WRONG!!! When given the opportunity business will do precisely what they have done every time this approach is tried. They will be greedy. They will take advantage of the lack of adult supervision and they will pay the least possible wage to workers to enhance their maximum self-indulgence. They will and they did. As a believer, you should feel betrayed. As an American I surely do. If you don’t, then either you condone or expect this behavior as normal or okay for a society to endure. Liberals do not.

  13. Buddha:

    so you think the constitution is a living evolving document? If so you do show your true colors – a big government progressive liberal.

    as I said above you cannot have both you either believe in big government or you believe in liberty the 2 cannot coexist.

    So take your Norman primogeniture from 1066 and shove it up your evolving a…. As for me I will take my constitution straight from 1789 that is.

  14. Rcampbell:

    the reason i like free market capitalism is that it addresses those issues, the nature of man is to be selfish, he is out for his own interests and does not give a tinkers dam about the guy down the street. So that is why I like it. It works everyone out for themselves doing there own thing and the government acting as a referee with objective law in the form of the constitution a non-evolving one so that everyone knows the rules.

    and yes it seems to me that much of the non smoking type stuff is from the left

  15. Shove it up your ass. Nice cogent reply, half-wit.

    Thanks for continually proving my points about you, your character and your tactical methodology.

    You want the Big Government argument? That’s a non-starter for rookies and propagandists. Big, small, medium, size is


    It’s a bullshit distraction tactic. Functionality and the protection of inalienable Constitutional Rights is RELEVANT. And living document does not mean you get to choose which parts to you get to piss on out of BELIEF. Parts of the Constitution cannot be changed without destroying the document. An evolved document has utility. A destroyed one has none. You’ve proven you don’t know the difference, Mr. Torture.

    And let’s be clear on YOU. You’re an ignorant semi-violent redneck jackass who knows squat about history, law, sociology, science, logic or comparative religion other than the propaganda force fed you by FAUXNews. I haven’t proven this fact, YOU have. Time and again.

    I just helped. I’ll have to say, you’ve performed quite well as an illustrative cautionary tale about the price of willful ignorance and being a blind follower. I’ve only ran into two others EVER stupid enough to say they endorsed PNAC. In that respect, you ARE special.

    The day a torture endorsing, PNAC loving, Neocon troll dictates to me the nature of liberty is the day Hell freezes solid, fascist enabler. You are demonstrably incapable of understanding the word “liberty”. You can’t define it or use it proper context. Thomas Jefferson would be the first to tell you so.

    Keep acting like political turd in the punchbowl. It’s funny and educational (just not how you believe it is).

  16. Buddha:

    redneck to the core and proud of it, my pappy was a share cropper and my mammy worked over in Bumpass as a washer woman to them nasty rich white folks. I never made it past 2nd grade on account I had to work the fields with my bare tremblin little hands. So skools me Buddha Ise willin to lern iffn ywase tinks ywase ken tich me.

    I got my gun and my bible. The gun to shoot myself with after listening to this bs and the bible so I cans pray for yous all fore I ascend into heaven with all the other redneck crackers.

    You are a dumbass, you look all them fancy words up in a dictiionary or did you go on line and find them on the cliff notes site?

    you are a proto-neopretensious autocratic churlish rube with delusions of grandeur.

  17. soooooooooooooWEEEEEEEEEE Go pig go!

    My grandfather had a 4th grade education. They were Louisiana sharecroppers before he left for the South Pacific in WWII. My father was the first member of the family to go to college. I’m the only person in my family with a doctorate.

    There’s a difference between rural and redneck. Thanks for illustrating that point as well.

  18. Buddha:

    all bs aside

    what area of study for the PhD? Is your disertation available? I would like to read it as long as it isnt something about the socialogical ramifications for equalization of wages paid to ghetto youth.

    I was thinking about doing one after my masters, but every single person I talked with said they would not do it again and that they should have gone to work instead.

    out of curiosity have you found it to be the same?

    no this is not an ass kissing.

  19. Never call me brother. That is one thing we most certainly are not. For your information, it’s not called “ass kissing”. It’s called a honey pot. Use bait when you can’t get what you what via confrontation. You attempted to illicit more personal information by appealing to my vanity or ego, neither of which works. You’re a known demonstrated aggressor. You think you’re being a clever little predator. It’s kind of cute.

  20. i did not call you brother, did not even think about it.

    But for the record you probably dont even have a PhD,

    Buddha if you are worried that I would come and kick your ass you dont need to, you could kick my ass 6 ways to sunday with one arm tied around your back and probably standing on one leg to boot. I will let you guess why. You seem to be so good at guessing and whipping up the psyhcologizing.

    I maybe an asshole but I am no predator, you on the other hand prey on the simple minded and dimwitted with your empty prose.

  21. What? Me, worry? snicker
    You may have stopped being directly threatening, but you still didn’t learn where that path leads, did you?
    You are consistent. I’ll give you that.

  22. I think it is hilarious when i come on this site and Budda is getting crazy because people have different opinions than he does. He starts name calling, and being belligerent. Calm down dude.

  23. Sorry, Chris, but if you think it’s hilarious, why would you want me to stop? That’s illogical on its face. I’ve always operated under the impression hilarity was entertaining. Besides, I get disagreed with all the time by civil, intelligent, reasonable humans who do have differing thought than myself (mespo, rafflaw, Vince T, Patty, Jill, the Mike’s A & S, FFLEO, et al and polite strangers). I respond to them kind. But it’s a little like TV. It’s still a kind of free country. If you don’t like troll bashing or lessons in Neocon propaganda, attempts at historical revisionism and illogic, please skip past those posts. Change the channel. I won’t be offended. Selective reading is possible. Ask Gyges. As for your concern over my state of calm, thank you for caring.

  24. Buddha:

    are you male or female, i thought you might be a male at first but the more I read I think you are probably a female.


    Oh I need to stop. I think I just ruptured a kidney.

    Isn’t that just adorable! I think I’ll just sit back and wait for Patty or Jill to show you the error of your ways on that one, cupcake. If they see that? It has been said Hell hath no fury . . . Enjoy!

  26. According to Lord Scalia, there is no such thing as “proportionality” in American jurisprudence; especially when it concerns that beastly predicate known as “cruel and unusual” punishment.

    Nay, our Lord, epistemic whiz that he is, attempted to convince the world with his opinion in Harmelin v. Michigan that one can arrive at the predicates ‘cruel and unusual’ without a judgment of ‘proportionality.’

    Thus, according to his Lordship, 30 lashes for lighting up on a flight isn’t really punishment at all.

    And that’s all I have to say about that.

  27. Budda

    I wonder if you understand the definition of liberty. It sounds to me like you think anyone who is a conservative is against liberty somehow, just because they dont agree with you.

  28. If you want to know how I define liberty, read Jean-Jacques Rousseau. To save you time, I’m a collectivist.

    There is a difference between a real conservative, like FFLEO, and the evil that has co-opted both the label “conservative” and the GOP it would seem. I like real actual conservatives. IRL and here too. We have things we do actually agree on. Two of those things are that equity means the law and the Constitution applies to all men, ALL, with no exception and that torture is a crime as defined by American jurisprudence. No, some forms of conservatism have admirable principles like fiscal conservatism – a principle that is now in obvious abandonment by those “conservatives”, the Neocons, who have driven not only this country but a once great party into the ditch. Eisenhower rocked. Since then, eh, not so good, but I digress. You want to know who I feel sorriest for as a “political group”? It’s not the Dems. It’s not the Indies. It’s people like FFLEO, people who stood by their party for YEARS trusting that the GOP was working in their best interests and for the common good only to find out, oops, I guess they weren’t! Base betrayal by people riding on their coattails. People who disagree with my arguments are not ipso facto anti-liberty or anti-liberal. Just one’s who tote the Neocon Propaganda Line, the revisionists, the apologists, the ones who think torture is just groovy and that Empire is some kind of game without consequence. Those people are not only anti-liberty and anti-liberal, they are anti-conservative and anti-American. A political cancer that must be pressed into omission or excised before the body politic dies. They chose propaganda as a tool? I know how to fight propaganda. With fact and logic or by making the purveyors of Neocon poison to destruct in public displays of the blackness in their hearts. To preserve liberty and the Constitution, it is my duty to fight it. As a man who believes in justice and the common good, it is my duty to fight against injustice and evil = even when, as they say in the movies, “The caller is in the house!” No, mere disagreement is not the threshold criteria.

  29. On a serious note, this story points to one of the major problems confronting the west in its relations with the Middle East. Wildly divergent cultures have produced wildly divergent legal systems. The demands of trade have influenced commercial law to a great extent, but laws governing relations among individuals and punishment exacted for criminal violations are still grounded in Islamic fundamentalism. That is why we see draconian punishment for petty crimes. It is also why we see increasing demands to outlaw speech deemed “offensive” to Islam. Saudi Arabia is an excellent example of why theocracies are a bad idea and why we need to restore the separation of church and state in this country.

  30. I notice that certain people are posting the same comments on every thread. This is a bit annoying since it detracts from the flow of the commentary. With regard to the issue of conservatism, I am struck by the fact that most of the so-called conservatives who post display a serious ignorance of classical conservatism. One of my favorite writers is Edmund Burke. For those of you who are truly interested in the foundations of conservative principles, Burke would be a great place to start.

  31. Mike A.

    We are in agreement. I’ve read a little Islamic law. Scary stuff. Crazy scary. It’s so counter to not just our founding principles but those of many European and Asian cultures as well. I’ve often wondered if reconciliation among the various legal traditions is even possible with theocracy still on the table in any form.

  32. How is it that you fight against injustice and evil? By blogging? Im curious what service you have provided our country that has preserved either liberty or the constitution. As far as torture goes, what would you do if you had to get information from one man that could save tens of thousands of lives. Stand by and hope that he tells you. You make judgments from your high horse, but have probably never had to make decisions concerning the lives of anybody other than yourself. Im not saying its right or wrong, only that people have to make tough decisions to protect our liberties and freedoms. I spent 5 years in the marine corps, 2 and a half of which were in Iraq. It is this experience that has made me tired of opinions like yours that our country has been driven into a ditch. You have no idea what life in a ditch is really like. I worked along side of Iraqis who were just happy to be able to come to work everyday and work for minimum wage. Those are men who know the real definition of freedom.

  33. I do other things. None for discussion here. This is a hobby, btw, this part of it. Gotta love the Crackberry. What would I do to get information? Why I’d follow the advice of experts on interrogation, either using relation building if there is time or drugs if there isn’t. Anyone who has studied torture knows that physical torture is a crap method of intelligence gathering. Drugs and sensory manipulation on the other hand work like a charm. It may take a little more time than waterboarding or electrifying their groin (hey, torture is cool! go all out!) but the result won’t be be reliable. Fact won’t have jack to do with it. The victims will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to make the pain go away. If you are willing to believe BULLSHIT to stop, hey, they can literally live with that. Bad intel costs lives, Marine. You should know that. But you just can’t wait to physically harm someone, can you? Tired of the opinion backed by fact that this country is in the ditch? Well you need to learn the difference between opinion and demonstrable fact. That or you watch zero news but the FOX Indoctrination Channel.

    And your colors are showing, chris, er, Bron, er, CCM. You are all so alike. Your type can only appear to be reasonable for so long before the jackboots come out. Might isn’t right. It’s a tool. And tough decision or not, wrong decisions have negative consequences. There is no point in fighting monsters if you become one.

    And as far as any decisions I’ve made that affect others lives, you simply presume too much.

  34. Bron98 1, February 2, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    Nothing against females, I own one.

    Here’s a theory – wait for it – warthog?

  35. “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

    “Make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter. ” Sen. Tom Daschle, Congressional Record, May 7, 1998, p. S4507.

  36. It escapes me how American in the U.S. military can continue to support the Republican Party.

    U.S. Military confirmed deaths in Iraq 4235.
    Iraqis deaths since 2003 estimated at 100,000.
    U.S. Military casualties, medical air transports (hostile and non-hostile) 44,000.

    The above is hideous… it gets worse:

    The Army Medical Corps is systematically mis-diagnosing PTSD war casualties as having a Personality Disorder, which then requires that these solders be given Chapter 5-13 discharges, which in turn disqualifies them from receiving any military medical or retirement benefits and which places them outside of the umbrella of Veterans Administration services.

    Extended deployments
    Army suicide rates at a thirty year high.
    Number of manufacturing jobs lost since 2000: 3.78 million
    National debt increase since 2000: $10.6 trillion

  37. Patty C:

    why that is such a flatering picture of you, really shows off the nose ornament. Is that a JC Penny portait?

    I bet you get asked to BBQ’s a lot.

  38. Because I believe we are doing a good thing for the country of Iraq. I personlly have met thousands of Iraqis, 90 percent of whom are extremely grateful for what we have done for them in removing a tyrant that was their leader. Im curious if you could rattle of the number of Iraqis the Sadaam killed while he was in power.

    Its funny how much the media reports on Iraq when things are going poorly over there. Now that things have turned around and there is stability, its hardly being talked about.

  39. Buddha,
    Great job tonight. It is interesting that Chris and Bron and the others always want to rely on the Fake “what would you do if a prisoner had information that could save thousands” dodge to stake a claim that torture is both effective and necessary. First of all, Chris, if you were in the Marines, thank you for your service. One thing that you should have learned in the Marines was that you are fighting for the rule of law and the Constitution. Torture is illegal under any circumstance. Even under the “24” scenario. Semper Fi is loosely defined as always faithful. Faithful to your fellow Marines and your country and the Constitution. You can only be faithful to the country and Constitution by following the law. Following US law and the UCMJ meand no torture. The Marines do not take any shortcuts in their procedures or rules. That includes following the law.
    One more thing, What is this business that someone who hasn’t fought in Iraq doesn’t know what freedom is? I know what freedom is. Freedomn is my father being credited with flying 50 bomber missions in WWII and then having his reserve group called up again in Korea with 4 kids and me on the way. Freedom is my brother fighting in Vietnam and the Army couldn’t locate him “in county”. Freedom is my uncles and brother in law fighting in WWII and Korea and Vietnam respectively. Freedom is watching my son leave a good job after college to join the Marines and serve his country. Those are all examples of citizens fighting for freedom. But those are not the only examples of Freedom. Freedom is also fighting for civil rights in the 50’s and 60’s. Freedom is protesting against governmental abuses and continuing the fight for rights for all minorities. Freedom is also working for the candidate of your choosing who stands for the rule of law. Freedom is also coming onto blogs like this one to try to convince others of the merits of your beliefs. Without all of these kinds of Freedom, we would not be the unique country that we are. Don’t forget that the Constitution that you claim is written in stone, was designed and written by progressives who believed that freedom was only possible when citizens were judged by the rule of law, not the rule of might.

  40. How about the fact that Iraq was a stable albeit despotic country that hadn’t attacked us on 9/11? A country that tolerated NO terrorists of any sort in their borders because they’d have been a threat to Saddam? How about Saddam hated Islamic radicals probably more than anyone? It’s hardly being talking about.

  41. raff,

    Thank you kind sir and doubly so for defending the honor of the Marines. An uncle was a Marine in Viet Nam and gave his life for this country. Semper Fi!

  42. You seem to be suggesting our USMC trains our young men to be torturers. If that doesn’t require defending, I’m not sure what does.

  43. Im not suggesting that at all. You are the one that presumes too much. You didnt answere my question on whether or not you thought the people of Iraq enjoyed Sadaam.

  44. Because it’s irrelevant. You didn’t answer my question about Iraq not being broken before invaded and not having attacked us. Now pardon me, but you’ll be talking to yourself the remainder of the evening. I suspect it’s not a new sensation.

  45. Chris,
    It is interesting that you jump to Fox news falsehoods and make up claims that were never made. Noone suggested that Iraqi people “enjoyed Saddam”. Not only are your facts thin, they seem to be made up. As to defending the honor of the Marines, I don’t attempt to honor them. They can do that on their own, however, they did not gain that honor by torturing prisoners.
    Buddha, thanks!

  46. I just told you one. Noone said that the Iraqi people “enjoyed Sadamm”. Show me the poll that says 90 percent of the Iraqi people approve what we have done in Iraq. Your numbers are nowhere near reality. Here is a link to a 2006 Washington Post that states 75% of Bagdhad citizens want the US to leave and 65% want that departure immediately.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/26/AR2006092601721.html. How can you expect the citizenry to be glad that we are there when we have killed hundreds of thousands Iraqi’s civilians and produced thousands of orphans and widows and displaced millions. And then we torture their citizens without bringing up charges against them. And you claim that they want us there? That is enough evidence for you tonight.

  47. I said the ones that i have personally met. Have you personally ever spoken to any Iraqis, or you just search the web to find evidence that supports what you believe. Go and search for how many Iraqis Sadaam is responsible for killing, many of whom are women and children, of which he killed purposefully. America makes concerted efforts to avoid civilian deaths, can you say that about Sadaam.

  48. Chris:

    Basically the snarkishness of the individuals on this site can be summed up by Buddhas own words:

    “If you want to know how I define liberty, read Jean-Jacques Rousseau. To save you time, I’m a collectivist.”

    They argue for the rule of law and then for the collective. It cannot be both ways. Rousseau is pretty much resposible for the French Revolution and its ideas of Fraternity and Equality (He also was instrumental in Kants developement of his works on ethics, Kants work is the philosphical grandfather of Marx and Hitler). We all know what that was-mob rule. That is their idea of liberty, the rule of the mob against the individual or the rule of the state against the individual and they wrap up it up in a nice little package of protecting the constitution.

    They are fundametally ignorant of what protects human rights or even the nature of those rights. They think that capitalism is a corrupt system while failing to even acknowledge that socialism/communism/collectivism does not even work and bankrupts countries and individuals. And the pitty is that most of these people are exceptionally bright and their views are listened to by people they interact with during daily activities (F.A. Hyack has an interesting article on the spread of ideas you can find it on the Mises website).

  49. Bron,

    Noting compares to your weakness – willful stupidity and a desire to harm people for no reason but your own personal satisfaction. That makes you ignorant and evil.

    You see the word “collectivist” and you freak out like the simpleton you are without having read the books in question. It’s obvious by your customary childish response.

    How about you reading a book before criticizing it, dipshit? Not that it would make much difference since you’ve a demonstrated inability to comprehend even when presented with basic definitions let alone an entire book of conceptual thought. Quite frankly, your level of stupidity, it’s not very becoming even for a self-confessed redneck and worse – it’s repetitive dogmatic tripe. “Oh, he’s a Commie!” wtf. What is this, 1953? First, no one is a Communist anymore except the Russian versions of you, okay? You know, people stuck in the past with their head up their ass. Communism’s day is done, it was proven invalid just like Neoconservatism is about to be proven invalid. And lumping socialism and communism together? Really amateur night. Some of our strongest allies? They are socialist, Parliamentary democracies, some of which have MUCH higher standards of living than we do here. You’re a country boy. You never learned a chain’s only as strong as it’s weakest link? Rhetorical. You’ve proven you can’t learn. Second, your rails against the common good show what a fascist and elitist you really are. It’s all me me me with you. The reason you had to “buy a woman”? I’m betting a decent one wants to vomit after talking to you for ten minutes, you selfish little troll. Even worse, you’re a pseudo-intellectual. Pssst. Your lack of education is perpetually showing when you reference concepts and authors your posts show you clearly don’t understand. And being stupid? Not the kind of trait that gets taken seriously in government anymore . . . unless you support Bush and think Palin is the future. And last I looked, that’s about 15% of the population. Good luck with that. Disparaging anyone here with garbage like “the pitty is that most of these people are exceptionally bright and their views are listened to by people they interact with during daily activities” just shows the depths of your illness. Hm, smart people being listened to? Is that a threat to you? Who woulda thunk it! It was a full blown, dry-drunk, Fundamentalist moron being controlled by a fascist criminal that screwed the U.S. in the first place, breaking the law and the economy at the same time. Who would have thought that listening to smart people was worse than that?

    Well, you obviously. That about says it all.

    You have no stances you can defend. None. Not one. This is not an opinion. This is a fact proven time and again. Keep coming back to illustrate who we’ll be locking up and removing from any decision making processes or oversight positions when We the People clean house.

  50. Buddha:

    I just love to see the spittle run down your chin!

    out of curiosity are you an organic collectivist or just one that believes in the power of the state over the individual?

    not that either one is any different.

    and yes there can be something wrong in listening to intelligent people when they say things that shows they dont even understand simple basic philosophic principles.

  51. Spittle? Hardly. You think you get my ire? That really shows how stupid you are. I’m TRAINED not to get angry arguing, sport. It’s one of the reasons I fold, spindle and mutilate your childish evil and ineptitude.

  52. Buddha,

    Here’s my take on certain people who post on this site. It’s obvious that some people are not interested in an actual exchange of ideas. When a person keeps shifting their argument without responding to any points, no matter how well made (ie: Mike A. gave several very well laid out point by point arguments that were promptly ignored!) then, I think it’s time to just ignore those people’s posts. The same goes for people who offer not reason, but constant personal attacks. The weakness of these posters is obvious and speaks for itself. People who are interested in actually considering what others are saying, even when they disagree with each other, are equally obvious by virtue of their responses.

    I think we do get distracted from real learning and discussion by responding to people who have a bad intent. Who cares about deliberately ignorant arguments? They don’t need to be refuted because they refute themselves. I’m wondering if we could all follow what rafflaw sugested and just concentrate on people who’s posts are sincere?

  53. Jill & mespo,

    So all points proven, no further discrediting needed? Then by your request . . .

    One lives to be of service.

  54. The profile is complete – Bron98 is definitely Bartlebee/Cromagnum Man/Waynebro/Gaylord Focker and the other 98%
    – of trolls. No doubt in my mind.

    Buddha, he didn’t say what species of female he ‘owns’.
    Thus my ‘Warthog Theory’.

    You should have seen his hysterical Rumpelstiltskin imitation following that remark last night as ‘Bummer’… because, true to form, he didn’t ‘get it’.

    I’m all done.

  55. I am humbled in the face of superior intellects. I defer to such great thinkers on all maters. I have now been converted, I am a socialist. The state is all, I am nothing, I live for the state and my brothers, what is mine is theirs. I shall have no thoughts save what the state requires me to think. I am now at peace with all mankind. The state is my father and my mother, I shall be blessed by the will of the people for the collective is all knowing and good.

    My desires matter not if they do not align with the greater good of the collective. I will henceforth be We98.



  56. Jill writes:

    “People who are interested in actually considering what others are saying, even when they disagree with each other, are equally obvious by virtue of their responses.”
    That’s ripe, Jill. You were the one who invited Bartlebee to stay over my stated objections to his foul language and insulting behavior the first time he posted here last Spring- because you were so interested in what he had to say about RELIGION – 24/7…on a Law blog.

    Thanks for your ‘virtue’. Likewise, with regard to the other clones
    CMM, Waynebro, Gaylord Focker, Bron98 and the other ‘98%’.

    I notice anytime I am part of the discussion and especially when I challenge you, on point, over some ignorant statement you make, you choose not to respond. Especially when it’s my field, Medicine. Classy…

    I got a question, how much ‘drumming’ do they do in the Hindu religion? Oh, that’s right, your an A-theist. I forgot…


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