I am in firm agreement with you. Right-wing religion is arrogant, self-righteous, and cares nothing about the essence of worship or godliness. Jesus bears no resemblance.

**When I also see people claiming to completely understand a being such as God I see that as blasphemy and egotism.**

I don’t claim to know anything but what has been explicitly revealed by God–revealed to me because of His grace, not my merit. It will take an eternity to understand an Infinite God.

Clint,
Atonement, in the Hebraic conceptualization, is always necessary whether one is or isn’t religious. Atonement is self examination of how we have treated others and ourselves. Even though I am a Deist Jew I practice it specifically every year between Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur as I celebrate the Jewish High Holy Days in Synagogue and at home. With the self examination of past deeds and behaviors comes the concomitant need to deal with those I have wronged and make good on it personally. In truth I try to practice Rabbi Hillel’s and the Pharisaic formulation, known to you as The Golden Rule, every day of my life, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. I freely admit my humanity.

Now you ask me various question and for the answers I refer you to the work of Hyam Maccoby and then to the sources he cites. If you so choose to follow this up you will also find Christian scholars who dispute and deride him. This is to be expected. Maccoby was Jewish and writing from a Jewish perspective. However, many Christian biblical scholars have also supported this perspective and retained their faith.

My point is not to tell you that your religious belief is wrong. One’s religious, or non-religious belief is personal and hopefully is examined and modified throughout one’s life. My point is that from a Jewish perspective Christians have hi-jacked and misinterpreted our Torah and we have valid reasons for feeling that way. From your perspective Christianity has replaced Judaism and is an extension of the Torah culminating in the “New Testament.”

I don’t know and can’t comment how you came to your religious point of view. For me though I was born a Jew and became more religious as I said the “Mourner’s Kaddish” daily in Synagogue for the year after my mother died, when I was 17. When my father died and I was 18, I did not “say Kaddish” and didn’t step into a Synagogue (except for family “Mitzvah’s) until I was 37. Throughout my whole life though I’ve explored all forms of religious belief to try to open myself up to some sense of what life is about. In that journey I’ve read much about Christianity and of course what you call “The New Testament.” I’ve not found Christianity or its’ beliefs persuasive. However, I’ve been friends with many who have and I have respected their beliefs and participated with respect and enthusiasm in their religious rituals. I love Gospel music and Christmas Carols, but do not celebrate Christmas.

Where I get angered by some currents of current Christianity is when their proponents try to enforce their beliefs on society as a whole. The abortion issue for instance is to me a religious belief that should be left to a woman’s choice.
I believe that Fundamentalist thought in any religion is dangerous when it mixes with politics and that includes Judaism. To my mind religious fundamentalists are responsible for innumerable deaths and misery throughout history.

When I see TV Preachers spouting Republicanism and Conservatism it does not jibe with my reading of the Gospels, nor of Jesus life. When I also see people claiming to completely understand a being such as God I see that as blasphemy and egotism. That’s me though, you are entitled to your beliefs.

I offered you a source for where many of my ideas were formed, its’ your choice whether you avail yourself of it. I’m not here to deride your belief or to educate you. If it provides comfort to you and your wife God Bless. However I would appreciate it if you and your fellow believers stayed out of my face and out of the laws of my country. When I’m approached by pimply young kids sent out to save my soul I am put off and angered by their effrontery and that of the people who sent them on their mission.

*Historians place the writing of the individual Gospels from perhaps 75 to 140 CE, way after Jesus death.*

What historians?

*Jesus, his family and his apostles all were faithful Jews, most probably Pharisee trained. They were opponents of the Romans, obviously, because the Pharisee’s led the ongoing revolt and had they not been the High Priest (Sadducee) would have been on their side and not arresting Jesus.*

What history book do you get this from since you reject what has been written of Him?

**Isaiah was railing against the Jewish crisis in his own times and was not prophesying some future Messiah some 700 years in the future.**

Was this the pre-Christian view of this passage in Isaiah among Jews?

How is this “railing against the Jewish crisis”? Who is Isaiah speaking of in this particular passage?

“But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,”

Pretty crafty of Paul to write something similar, “For our sake, He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God” -2 Cor. 5:21.

You seem to have kept the Mosaic law rather well. What about atonement? Is that no longer necessary?

You are a shining Mentsh. I feel indebted to you. Thank you

The Book of Isaiah is a book in the Jewish Torah attributed to an 8th Century BCE Jewish prophet. He lived in a time of great upheaval for the Jews, with Assyrian invasions, Hebrew kings poor judgment and at different times the occupation of Judah, Israel and Samaria, the three Jewish Kingdoms. Isaiah 7. probably referred to King Ahaz, who sold out the Assyrians and his kingdom Judah and was conquered because of it. Actually, the above is a rather simplified point to mainly present context. Isaiah was railing against the Jewish crisis in his own times and was not prophesying some future Messiah some 700 years in the future.

However, 700 odd years later comes Jesus, also at a time of crisis for Jews and Israel. Jesus, his family and his apostles all were faithful Jews, most probably Pharisee trained. They were opponents of the Romans, obviously, because the Pharisee’s led the ongoing revolt and had they not been the High Priest (Sadducee) would have been on their side and not arresting Jesus. It is possible that as religious Jews they used allusions to the Torah, to bolster their claim that Jesus was inheritor of the line of David and thus qualified as Messiah. However, Messiah to the Jews (Moshiach) referred to a human king who would destroy the Roman oppressors and lead the world to peace. In Jewish belief traditionally and at that time
no divinity was attached to the Messiah.

However, quite awhile after Jesus death comes Paul. He makes two claims that actually are suspicious. First that he is Pharisee by education and second that he worked for the High Priest (Sadducee) rounding up rebels. If he was Pharisee trained it is highly unlikely that he would work for the Saduccess, except of course if he was a traitor to Israel. His second claim though, while probably being true, makes his case even weaker. He claims Roman citizenship by birth. There is no way that the Pharisees would be training a hereditary Roman citizen since that’s exactly who they were fighting. Also a Roman citizen would have had to acknowledge the emperor as a God and no Jew, claiming to be at all religious could have done that. Also it must be remembered that Paul never met Jesus in the flesh.

We then have Paul on his way to Damascus, under a hot sun, falling off of his mount and having a vision of Jesus. This is supposedly where he is saved and becomes a super Apostle,that in his mind ranks above all the Apostles and followers of Jesus while he lived. Paul is the actual father of Christianity and certainly moved it in the direction of the deification of Jesus. Meanwhile, back in Jerusalem James the Just has become the head of Jesus’ movement. Why James when the Gospels portray Jesus family as being against him. That’s easily answered by realizing that as Jesus’ brother, he was also of the line of David, which was needed to claim the authenticity of the movement.

There are further passages in your Bible to show that there were problems between Paul’s claimed Apostleship and the real movement led by James. Much of that argument has been garbled by later Christian editors to show Paul somehow coming out on top. What wasn’t fully garbled though was that the Jesus movement in Jerusalem, led by James and Peter, approved of Paul’s desire to preach to the gentiles, probably to get him out of their sight.

Paul was a successful organizer and even though his version was an anathema to James and the original apostles, his support among the gentiles and among some Jews dispirited by their defeat by the Romans, 70CE, grew. Paul was a great organizer and polemicist. The James followers and movement didn’t die out and some historians trace their existence until the Sixth Century CE. Obviously though, Paul’s views won and to the victor comes the spoils of rewriting the history. When Constantine got into the game the Christian Canon was carefully edited to make the Romans seems like some benign group. This was hard to do when just a Century before you were throwing Christians to the lions, but done it was.

A long preamble, I suppose, but it provides context for my refutation. Historians place the writing of the individual Gospels from perhaps 75 to 140 CE, way after Jesus death. They were written by followers of Paul, who were in their minds rightly bitter towards the Jewish establishment and followers of James, who refused to acknowledge Paul’s teachings which were the abrogation of Judaism. As they were written and you can follow the progression, the gospels became progressively anti-Jewish. At the same time they also cut and pasted the Torah to find suitable indications that it foretold Jesus. Thus adding the patina of historicity to their claims. That their interpretations differed from those of the Jews who wrote and nurtured it meant little to them, because in their minds the Jews who didn’t agree with them didn’t understand their own Torah. That is how Isaiah came to be a mainstay even though it has nothing to do with Jesus.

What I find most interesting though is that there is no doubt that Jesus and his apostles lived as pious Jews. Yet the sections of the Torah forbidding eating pork and shellfish and requiring circumcision were ignored. I believe that was because Paul, always a good salesman, realized that part of the pitch was not going to sell with his gentile listeners, or apostate Jews.

I present this all not as a refutation of your belief Clint. I admit that I could be wrong and thus sentenced to eternal hell for my refusal to believe as you do. You have every right to believe as you choose. My point is that there exists a viewpoint and strong evidence to refute Christian claims to Isaiah’s teaching and to the Jewish Torah. I would deeply appreciate it if you Christians would stop trying to force your beliefs on to the rest of us, even if you’ve got some notion that its’ for our own good.

I don’t drink milk with meat and not only am I circumcised and proud, I would have circumcised my sons if I hadn’t been blessed with Daughters. My daughters never had need of abortions, unlike those of many fundamentalist Christians, but I would have strongly supported them getting one if they had made that decision. I believe, as in the Jewish belief, that life and the soul enter the infant with its’ first breath and I am offended that the anti-abortion movement is a sham by fundamentalists to raise funds, gain political power, maintain a patriarchy and rail against female sexuality.

I’ve lived on this planet for a relatively long time, experienced much more of the pain and travail of living than most Americans. I refuse to be dictated to by people who haven’t spent half the time I have trying to make sense out of this thing we call life. I disdain those who have the arrogance to believe they have the right to preach to others and to jam their beliefs down our throats. I feel sorry for those so frightened of life that they wrap themselves in absolutes and refuse to look at evidence to the contrary.

Note also where “lamb led to the slaughter” came from….Isaiah again:

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

**If my Hindu friends are excluded then I am excluded.**

We all are. Jesus called well-meaning, law-abiding Jewish people “evil.”

**And that is what Jesus did he tried to teach us how to lead a good life here on earth.**

Most people believe that without even knowing what He taught Bron.

Mike,

**However, the problem with this for Fundamentalists is that they’ve based their dogma on a passive lamb led to the slaughter**

Was Isaiah’s writings corrupted by Constantine also?:

3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Buddha,

If the “debate” is won by sheer number of insults and personal declarations of victory, then you are the winner by a longshot. I came asking questions and I received my answer. Thanks again for the dialogue.

There are many books from scholars both Christian and Jewish that have concluded this. Jesus and the Apostles coming from Galilee for instance indicates this, because there was the hotbed of the Jewish revolts. There are many indications that Jesus revolutionary status was edited out at the various councils starting in 325CE. The sign on Jesus Cross for instance that he claimed to be king of the Jews indicates that he was crucified for insurrection. This is because to proclaim oneself King of the Jews was considered treason by the Romans. This is all very available stuff if one wants to educate themselves.

However, the problem with this for Fundamentalists is that they’ve based their dogma on a passive lamb led to the slaughter at the behest of God their Gospels are literal truth. Because of this history and historical facts must be ignored. The point that Buddha et. al have been making is that if you get past the dogma and religious belief there exists a message and perhaps way of living that has merit. Literalists can’t allow themselves to see this because it might shake their faith. That is why the must preach to others, instead of being content with living their own lives and letting others live theirs.

I always thought the effete Jesus was a bunch of balogna, he was in my mind a tough hombre who had the courage to take on Rome and kick a little ass in the temple. When I figured that out it was actually freeing and I thought much better of Jesus than I had before. I dont know why Christians dont teach more about Jesus as radical/revolutionary. It is certainly an individual against the state scenario. Although it took hundreds of years the individual triumphed over the state

“Clint,
If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has chosen to reveal Himself in a specific way, don’t you feel that we should accept Him exactly the way He has shown? One cannot know God unless God wants to be known in a specific way. Either Isaac or Ishmael was taken to Mt Moriah to be sacrificed. Moses said it was Isaac, Muhammed said it was Ishmael. Either one is right or both are wrong.”

Clint,
Here is the problem I have with your comment and with the general Christian attitude towards Judaism. An attitude that has unfortunately caused much agony for the Jewish Community through 1,684 years. I am dating the agony to the first Council of Nicaea 325CE. Christianity and Judaism are separate religions, with widely different theology and philosophy. From a Jewish theological perspective Christianity is an admixture of of Hellenistic and Gnostic philosophy, subsumed to the needs of a pagan Emperor who need Christian support and offered up power and wealth to seal the deal. The Romans hated the Jews because their frequent rebellions represented some of the greatest setbacks of the unending success of Roman Imperialism. In order to make Jesus, a probable Jewish revolutionary and Pharisee palatable, they had to severely edit your Gospels to make Jesus a pacifist and neutral towards Rome. In the process it was necessary to demonize the Jews as Christ Killers, make Pilate who the independent Roman records show was a monster palatable and appropriate our Torah with editing/translation/interpretation more palatable to their beliefs.

Now of course I’m just giving you the general Jewish point of view in trying to make you understand that to us God could never have revealed himself in the way you think he did. there is no such thing as Judeo-Christian belief, although as an oppressed minority for so many years many have had to help you all keep up the pretense. Judaism and Christianity are totally separate religions. If Christianity is right, then Judaism is wrong, or vice-versa.

As for the second part of your statement Abraham never took either son to Mt. Moriah to sacrifice one. It’s not literal Clint. It’s a metaphor that clearly shows God did not want to have human sacrifice, as was common throughout the world at the time. It was one of the things that separated an evolving Judaism from the surrounding horror of many of the then current religious practices.

Now please understand that I am a Deist that chooses to practice Jewish ritual. My philosophical thinking through the years has led me to believe that there is some sort of creative force in the Universe, but that it is impossible for us humans, in our current state of development, to understand its’ meaning. The concept of Heaven of Hell simply does not make any sense to me, yet I do accept the possibility of life after death and I’ll wait until that time comes to find out, or just cease to exist.

In the meantime I’ve tried to live my life based on Rabbi Hillel’s strictures and I think it’s a good base for all of humanity to live by. If some kind of judgment comes after death I am ready to meet the Judge, but hopefully not for many years.

I presented the above not as a dispute with Christianity, but to give you an understanding of the Jewish point of view and why we people with a history and philosophy that reaches back for perhaps 3,500 years resent the attitude that Christians have a lock on truth and that we’re somehow children to be educated by you.

I wish you well in your beliefs and my attitude on people is that basically if they live by “The Golden Rule,” as your religion puts it, then its’ fine with me and I wish all peace, love and good health. However, I do resent that you have been attempting to use this site to spread your “good news,” while lacking a full understanding of what you speak. Anything I’ve stated is available for easy googling and research. If you are as pious as you profess it might be helpful to really look into the history of what you say. Who knows it might even make you stronger in your belief. However, all too many of your ilk are afraid to do so, because you are afraid of what you’ll find. Then too, some people approach religious belief with a closed mind and the sad thing about that to me, is that I think one human purpose is to try to learn, to grow and to examine their philosophical/spiritual underpinnings.

The Christian Missionaries accompanied the early imperialists and spread Christ’s word at the point of a gun, while their expedition leaders were plundering the natives. These supposed pious men were there to provide moral cover for the evil of men destroying and despoiling societies. They also got a piece of the action.

Today we still see the Christian Missionary bringing salvation to the ignorant and unsuspecting. They are in many guises be they Baptist Preachers, young Mormons on a mission, or those for whom I hold particular disdain “Jews for Jesus” types who spread the myth that Christianity is just a continuation of Jewish teaching to Jews with poor Jewish education or family tradition. What galls me most about the concept of Christian Missionary work, or that of Muslims for that matter, is their blasphemy that they possess the sole truth. Believing that the Creator of the Universe (if there is one) could be understood by humans is blasphemy in my mind. The concept of an “Awesome God” expounded in the Torah is just that, beyond our ability to understand. As I’ve stated in other comments, on other threads, the great Rabbi Hillel, who predated Jesus, when asked to sum up the meaning of the Torah said:

“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”

Those who read the Torah, or any holy book should take the Rabbi’s words in caution of their own lack of understanding.
Holy Books are not meant to be read as literalistic history.
Metaphors/parables express higher truths not specifics. Genesis was all metaphor, understood as such at the time of its’ creation and not a literal blueprint of creation. If you don’t see that then you’re missing the point. To Jews, for instance, the concept of “original sin” is non-Biblical. Jews believe that people are not born in sin and the world is not a loathsome place. The Jewish thrust is to make this world a paradise for all humans. Hell is a concept that is foreign to most Jewish teachers, as is heaven. It is a religion of good deeds in this world, rather than salvation in the next.

“If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has chosen to reveal Himself in a specific way, don’t you feel that we should accept Him exactly the way He has shown? One cannot know God unless God wants to be known in a specific way. Either Isaac or Ishmael was taken to Mt Moriah to be sacrificed. Moses said it was Isaac, Muhammed said it was Ishmael. Either one is right or both are wrong.”

If my Hindu friends are excluded then I am excluded. They are closer to the Divine than I am and than most other Christians I know. They actually walk the walk. It is poverty that your religion would exclude these people solely because they do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior.

The bible is a users manual for the human race, with the major tenenant being Love others as you love yourself. Certainly no admonition for superiority.

Out of all the religions that I have looked at they all pretty much try and teach humans how to behave and lead a good life. And that is what Jesus did he tried to teach us how to lead a good life here on earth. Was it preporation for heaven maybe so, but it sure helps with life on earth too.

You miss a lot of things, Clint.

I must have missed that rebuttal between all of your emotionally-charged insults.

If you want to believe that “hell” doesn’t mean hell and “no one comes to the Father except through me” doesn’t mean what it explicitly says…then go on Buddha. You may make me look foolish or ignorant but you will not stop me from desiring the best for you.

Thanks for the sincere question.

There are plenty of nice people in the world. But the Bible says that “none is righteous, no, not one. No one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

When God looks down at the world, He sees no good people. It says in the Bible that “for our sake [God] made [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin; so that in [Jesus] we might become the righteousness of God.

God punished Jesus for my evil and treats me as though I lived His perfect life. He does the same for all who trust in that.

If I believe that and love others, I would not hesitate to tell people though it be offensive.

Here’s one last parable:

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Maybe the word “fundamentalist” was derived from this parable. May the God of Jesus have mercy on both of us. Thanks for the dialogue.

why do you want to convert everyone? As somone who does believe in a creator although not in the way you believe, isnt it just plainly and simply up to the individual?

I think that Jesus died for everyone, not just Christians he put it out there, not because he wanted Christians to have sole access or for people to convert to Christianity but for the entire human race. I have Hindu friends and they are kind and good people. Are they denied a place?

I’ll worry about my relationship with God and you worry about yours. You have nothing to fear from my relationship with God and I have nothing to fear from yours. Nothing to fear does not mean I’ll accept you trying to cram your ridiculous beliefs down my throat by force.

So go on, go crow to your fundie buddies about how you “bested” the heathens, despite not having proven a thing. It’s the fundamentalist MO – DENIAL. I’ve seen it a thousand times and you turned out just as I expected. You live a delusional life thinking you’re special if you like. In the end, you are helping to destroy society with your exclusionary nonsense and you aren’t doing yourself any favors by hiding from reality.

So you agree with me finally and are ready to trust in Christ to save you from your sin? I feel that your words are implicitly saying that the Bible is true and you have been wrong for so many years.

Or, should I take your words at face value? It is the intended meaning of Jesus we should seek, not our personal translation.

Very good. This is why I like dialogues like this. I never connected that verse with my dialogue with Buddha. I appreciate the correction but it doesn’t change the fact that parables illustrated his explicit teachings–though the meanings were hidden to the crowds at the time.

Take for instance, this conversation with the religious leaders:

“Destroy this temple, and in three days a I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.”
————
Note that he told a parable-I’ll raise this temple up in three days

The meaning was hidden- they thought he was talking about the temple in Jerusalem.

It illustrated his teaching that he would die and resurrect- When he rose from the dead, his disciples remembered this saying.
———–
There was a specific, intended meaning. He spoke with purpose and clarity to those open to truth. He did not give us self-esteem proverbs to twist for our own purposes.
————
Thanks Mespo, you keep me on my toes. What do you think of the historical reliability of the resurrection of Christ. No real scholar can deny that thousands of people at least thought that Christ had risen three days after he died. What does Mespo say?

Nice quote. I’ll have to remember that one.

“Jesus taught in parables to illustrate his explicit teachings–not to give us mystical philanthropic sayings to mix with our own worldviews.”

****************

Sorry to chime in on your dialogue with Buddha, but this statement is literally wrong according to the Jesus of the Magic Book.

“The knowledge of the secrets of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. This is why I speak to them in parables, ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand’” (Mat. 13:11,13).

Acting evil will destroy you. Since God is within you, it is therefore you destroying yourself. You have nothing to fear from others regarding your relationship with God, only yourself. The only thing to fear isn’t just fear itself, but your own lack of understanding of the nature of God within you.

Jesus speaks of accepting His words:

Jesus: “For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels?”

Jesus also spoke of “fear” and “hell”:

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him (God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Would you consider these parables also? If so, please explain the metaphorical meaning that He is intending.

For the record, I haven’t side stepped jack shit, sport.

Imagine what you like. Imagination and fantasy are what you seem to be good at. I’ve addressed your points, you persist in your “belief”, I told you the heavy lifting would be yours but you are clearly not interested in learning, so why should I bother? Again, your rigid thinking not only did you a disservice, it misinformed you about your “argument” and it’s effectiveness.

You believe Jesus is THE son of God and I provided evidence in His own words to back that he was A son of God despite holding out Himself as an exemplar and the use of parable and stating the the Heavenly Father was the one deserving worship, not the man Jesus. Jesus, as a man, knew he was unimportant in himself but important as an example – or do you think a man attributed with miraculous powers would allow himself to be crucified, Invisible Sky Dad’s orders or not? Before you answer “God told him to” I’ll point out that is your DOGMATIC BELIEF, NOT FACT. AGAIN, YOUR BELIEF DOES NOT MAKE FACT. Your ignorance and resistance to historical fact, logic and established theology is of only tangential concern. You present no fact, only misinterpreted scripture quotes – a danger and known historical abuse of the very book you “believe” is the literal word of God (despite the FACT that IT ISN’T). You have addressed NONE of my points with anything other than dogma. Rote repeating of “JESUS IS LORD!” equivalents. You are falling to some of the very errors I pointed out. I am a sign, but you walk your road. If it leads to a dead end, that was YOUR choice. Dead ends are often the easy paths. Free will is a gift. Waste it as you like, but your attempts to force your fantasy (and that is what it is, fantasy) upon others is small minded and rooted in your ego’s need to feel special. Far from disproving me, your further floundering with ineffective counter-arguments and resort to the ad homeniem (caged bear? please, your ego is showing) is only proving my point that YOUR ego is what you are servicing, not logic and fact. Like many subjects, you are probably too close to the problem to see it. You clearly lack an ability for abstraction. Your analysis is proven sub-standard, therefore, your opinion is moot unless you bring better and more persuasive analysis. Again, if your goal is conversion, you have as poor target selection as you do argument skills. How long did you read here before speaking? Did you actually think that tactic of hanging your lynch pins off Fundamentalist dogma would work? If so, that alone speaks volumes.

Bears aren’t tricked by dogma. They chew it up and spit it out like the poison meat it is. Maybe I should leave you to read past examples of what happens when someone pokes the bear. The evidence speaks for itself.

But in the sake of clarity, you have proven nothing and I have avoided nothing. The side-steps here are in your dance, sport, not mine. If I’m the bear, you’re not fighting, you’re dancing. I’ll let the readers judge who is most persuasive, because clearly, your judgment – a skill rooted in logic and ethics that is teachable – is impaired by your “belief”.

So unless you have better than “is so, is not” Fundamentalist dogma, you should listen instead of speaking or at least have the sense and good graces to walk away disappointed at not adding another unwilling person to your roles of “special people”. No one is special. NO ONE. Not you, not me, not the President, NO ONE. That’s an ego induced delusion, that feeling of “specialness”. Maybe it’s as my grandfather always taught that God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, didn’t He? And it wasn’t to be a dogmatic contrarian. It was so you could listen more than you speak . . . and stereoscopic hearing is a survival trait for orientating predators but since science is usually out for your type, I’ll leave that as a lagniappe.

So bring the heat or ride the pine, but right now, you’re objectively losing the argument and losing badly. I’m sure you don’t “believe” that, but past pointing you to the evidence, I, unlike you, am uninterested in using force to change your mind. I didn’t force Bron to change his mind on certain topics, if you want an example, he did all that work on his own. And make no mistake, reliance on dogma is reliance on coercion. Dogma is rooted in the threat of “Do as I say or go to Hell”. A tool to service the ego’s of church officials. You are a fine example of coercion breeds coercion just like child abusers breed more child abusers. You’ve been fed a steady diet of it and it’s all you can apparently serve.

Persuade me you are right if I am so wrong. Use logic and fact against me. You know, REASON.

Force and threat, especially based on the intangible like “belief” or the concept of “Hell”, don’t work with me. Fear is something I have little of by nature, but I certainly don’t fear your arguments any more than I fear your myopic and conflicted view of God or any more than I fear your dogmatic responses. Which is “not at all” in case you didn’t catch that.

So side-step away, handsome, but you should look to see who is really dancing before you get off the wall to accuse someone of stealing your move. I’m probably a poor poor choice in dance partners. I don’t side step like that. You’re dancing. This bear doesn’t dance. This bear plays judo. That is not an ego based statement (I’m not too “good” to dance with you), but an evidentiary statement based on past performance.

In short, you should step up or step off, because right now your dance moves are looking like a bunch of drunk Germans doing The Chicken Dance at a wedding reception. No offense to drunken Chicken Dancing Germans. So persuade me using the proper tools, or don’t bother. It’ll only make you look worse.

The obvious sidestep and slight prejudiced comment from a philosopher such as yourself give me the mental image of a caged deer. Thanks for the dialogue.

Good to see you are a Texan to the bone.

Jesus taught in parables to illustrate his explicit teachings–not to give us mystical philanthropic sayings to mix with our own worldviews. Jesus did not come to this world to be another Confucius. He came to be slaughtered for the sins of idiots like me…and philosophers like you–and to teach us to trust in Him as sufficient to rescue.

I don’t claim to be superior to your religion, but I do claim that the person of Jesus, as described in Scripture, is superior to all things. That’s pretty offensive. At least it was to me.

CCD,

If your “wild guess” was derived from the “About Me” section of my website, then I’d say that it wasn’t that wild at all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7890211.stm

You’re recipes are brilliant.

Dogma doesn’t defeat my statements. You believe what you want. I have history and logic. What I said is true whether you believe it or not. And I have a lot more theologians in my camp than are in the Fundie camp. Hundreds of years worth. Denial is part of the problem with Fundamentalism. If something comes up that contradicts what you’ve been TOLD is the ONLY world view, the typical reaction is reflexive knee-jerk “your wrong, I’m right” statements like you just made. Your example was bad, for one thing. You need to learn what a parable is and how it relates to teaching. Jesus was a teacher and he relied on parables as was common practice in his day and place. Had he been Greek, he’d have used the Socratic method. Parables work on simile, analogy and metaphor being stretched across a fictive framework. A story to illustrate a point directly but usually indirectly as constrained by the simile and metaphoric forms. You’re literalism is showing. I’ve already demonstrated that a literal interpretation of the Bible is a fallacy. I’m not going to repeat myself because it contradicts your “belief” or your misunderstanding of Jesus’ methods and lack of acceptance about the Bible’s history. If you expect capitulation and conversion, you’ll be waiting a long, long time. It’s not my job to undo the bad ideas that have crept into your head, I’ll gladly point the way, but like all things, the heavy mental lifting has to be your effort. But if you just want to try and browbeat dogma about Jesus being THE son of God so you can retain a sense of being “chosen”, you might want to back off that. Say you disagree and let it drop. Retain your illusion of specialness if your ego requires it, but it’s doing you and the rest of the world no favor. Mike and I have both approached this in a logical and historically accurate manner, yet you still tow the line. Rigid thinking. Believe what you want, but a flawed basis for argument won’t fly in here. I’ve seen them fail time and again. It’s not a winning position in a room full of people trained to argue from fact.

Thank you for the encouragement. I do enjoy understanding others’ points of view and friendly dialogue.

If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has chosen to reveal Himself in a specific way, don’t you feel that we should accept Him exactly the way He has shown? One cannot know God unless God wants to be known in a specific way. Either Isaac or Ishmael was taken to Mt Moriah to be sacrificed. Moses said it was Isaac, Muhammed said it was Ishmael. Either one is right or both are wrong.

**”Jesus probably didn’t consider himself THE son of God, but A son of God.”

Jesus is not saying worship him, but that his example is the way to find God. It is often distorted by those who wish to demonize “the other”.**

Jesus’ words are quite contradictory to your understanding of Him. It is not “following his example” that allows us to find God, it is putting our trust in what He did on the Cross.

Jesus said, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life….whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God….whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

He says that He is God’s only Son.
He states that access to God can only be found solely through Him.

His intended meaning makes his view of access to God very narrow. A good teacher doesn’t say these things unless they are perfectly true.

Not all politicians are slime
Not all of the wealthy are elitist
Not all who enjoy success are crooks
Not all religious practice is, by definition, fanatical
Not all troubled children were sexually abused

Not all women are victims AND
…not ALL men are jerks

Happy Valentines!

Your clarification is duly noted and true. Thank you, sir. I am glad you enjoyed the post.

“not all Zionists are fundamentalists and not all Jewish fundamentalists are Zionists”

I had too many not’s in there and created a double negative.

“Mike,
“any system that believes that only IT has the truth, or that IT knows God’s purpose, is both ignorant and blasphemous.”
But, somehow you do believe that that is the truth. Believing that no one has the truth is still, by implication, a belief that you do.I don’t think any of you are dumb. I think that most (if not all) of you are far more intelligent than me. I haven’t even finished college and may never have an opportunity to do so. It seems that your presuppositions about my beliefs have ruled your dialogue with me. Do I think you are wrong in many ways…yes. But, you feel the same towards me.”

Clint,
Good luck on your marriage and I wish you a long, fruitful and happy life together. We Jews believe that in marriage, one discovers our other half and thus find completion. I hope that comes true for you.

As for the first part of your statement I wasn’t saying that I don’t believe in anything, or that I don’t believe in things that I hold to be true. What I meant was that while personally I have many things I believe in quite strongly, I do so also with the understanding that I could be wrong. The problem that I have with fundamentalists, or with those who follow any “isms,” is their inability to acknowledge that anything in their belief could be wrong. I find that kind of absolutist belief to be both ignorant and blasphemous religiously.

I believe this because if one accepts the concept of a creator of this entire universe, one has to understand that a being such as that is way beyond our understanding. How can that be otherwise? How can we confidently state the Creator’s purposes, when we are dealing with a force beyond human comprehension? How could any finite book fully explain the infinite? Even if you believe that the various holy books were created as God’s message to us humans, the Creator would really have to quite severely shorten the message so it could be comprehended by frail, fallible beings such as we.

Given that, anyone human that state’s he/she “knows” God’s will is arrogant, fraudulent and a blasphemer. The 3 Prophets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all claimed that God spoke through them, not that they necessarily understood God. They knew that it would be blasphemy for them to state otherwise and revered God too much to do so. Yet today we have frauds that claim God speaks through them and tells them to tell us what to do. What is most interesting about these latter day prophets is that much of what they state as God’s word contravenes what the various holy books of their faith expostulate.

Finally, whether or not you finished College is no determinant of how intelligent you are. My father dropped out of school in the 9th Grade and yet he was one of the smartest, well read men I ever met and that’s not a sons’ hero worship. Perhaps too I have had an incorrect, pre-conceived notion of where you are coming from and I apologize for judging you on scant evidence. Please keep returning because all non-Troll points of view are welcome. Intelligence, by the way, is more a factor of a person being open to new thoughts and ideas, even if after mulling them over conceptually they reject them based on sound reasoning.

“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but by me.” Jesus is not saying worship him, but that his example is the way to find God. It is often distorted by those who wish to demonize “the other”.

How did Jesus worship? He did so from within. Hmmm . . . now where have I heard that before? cough cough Buddha cough cough. “When you see my life and how I communicate with the Heavenly Father, you should know how you too need to communicate with Spirit.” Jesus plainly said, “The Kingdom of God is within you.”

Those are the words of A son of God, not THE. Articles can be important.

Should I ever create that scenario I’m equipped. The language is universal, “love”, and all that it encompasses, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance.
I sincerely invite you to keep coming back.
The mature folks who contribute here speak the universal language fluently. Peace

“What’s vital to me is the present.”

Then eat drink and be merry. I hope you never have to comfort a rape victim with “right and wrong” not working for you.

Jesus was far from a good teacher/man if he was remotely inaccurate in his claim to be the only way to God. That is the height of arrogance. I don’t have perfect knowledge whatsoever. But if I claim that Jesus isn’t necessarily who He said He was, then I really have no business accepting any of his teachings. Perfect knowledge cannot be attained, but enough knowledge can.

Thank you for congratulating me. I appreciate the kind words. I’m not aggressive because God usually humbles me when I am and makes me look like a complete idiot. Thanks for the civility.

You stopped aiming where you pick and choose to put your personal energy?
I don’t know about eternal value. What’s vital to me is the present.
What am I creating right now. Good luck with right and wrong, that doesn’t work for me. It will fail you at some point.

Thank you. One lives to be of service.