We may have even sent DVDs that might not work on their players. DVDs have region codes that allow it to only play in DVD players meant for certain countries. So, if our DVDs are Region 1 or what not and they are another –they may not work for them. Talk about insult to injury.

I can hear it now “Americans!” (as they throw the DVD against the wall).

Won’t surprise me if they seemed so rushed to get stuff.

“Just a plea again for civility… valued members of our little community of rascals.”

Yes.

“And do I really have to spend my time going back over old posts?”

No.

I am successful in own right. Nobody paid my way.

Here is Patric Walsh’s briefing, yet again:

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=284246-1

AND

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/2501826
Gitmo complies with Geneva treaties says US

“…About 240 captives remain at Guantanamo, including five accused of plotting the September 11 hijacked plane attacks that promoted the US war on terrorism.

Only one has been convicted of a crime.

US courts and military review panels have cleared a few dozen others for release, including 17 members of China’s Muslim Uighur minority who were cleared years ago.

But they remain at the base because US officials fear they would be tortured if returned to China, will not bring them to the United States and can not find another nation to take them in.

“They are very exasperated by this process,” Walsh said.

Human rights groups disputed Walsh’s findings that the camp was in full compliance with the requirement for humane treatment.

They said most Guantanamo prisoners were still held in severe isolation and faced psychological and physical abuse and threats of violence from guards.

“They are caught in a vicious cycle where their isolation causes psychological damage, which causes them to act out, which brings more abuse and keeps them in isolation,” said Pardiss Kebriaei, a staff attorney for the Center for Constitutional Rights, which represents many of the prisoners.

“If they are going to be there another year, or even another day, this has to end.”

Very funny. No, I have limits to who I’ll let sign my paycheck and you’ve just hit one of my limits. Although it is the kind of subversive advice I’d give so good call on that. lol

are you their new media consultant?

I may be wrong but the way I read it was that Steele is being attacked by the status quo of the party and so the empire strikes back reference, Steele is Luke Skywalker and Haley Barber is Darth Vader. Does that make Rush Yoda?

Very well said. Agree 100%.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/03/09/steele-adviser-on-gop-naysayers-the-empire-has-struck-back/

“The pilgrims in my mind are all that is wrong with America and should be taught only as a footnote to our history.”

I still contend the modern trend in fundamentalism in general and in Christianity in particular traces it’s roots to Puritanism. They, like modern fundamentalists, were divisive and aggressive proselytizers. It didn’t help that contemporaneously they were generally seen as dour killjoys and socially disruptive. There is a reason the English and Dutch showed them the door and they ended up in the wilds of the New World. And it wasn’t the buckles on hats fashion faux pas either.

And as far as Rand goes, you can mark me down in the “what mespo said” column.

Sometimes lecture is the appropriate format. Good show and seconded.

We are fortunate to have most of the junk postings removed and I am glad that we have as many comments from women within this blawg as we do. I would even prefer additional feminine perspectives to the topics and it would be a shame to lose any of the regular ‘gals’.

that is her typical MO? She must be a real putz (sp?).

But then again if you can trace your ancestry back to the Rock…

Personally I like to think that the real founding of America, the true intellectual founding occured at Jamestown. An outpost created for doing business in the New World. Risk takers willing to start an outpost on the far side of the “moon” for profit. The pilgrims in my mind are all that is wrong with America and should be taught only as a footnote to our history.

Personally I would hide my head in shame if I had a pilgrim ancestor.

I always spell the frigging word wrong, thank you for correcting me.

I actually do know what doctors have to do to become doctors, and think they have a very good training program that I wish engineers would incorporate into our post college training.

I actually modeled my own career on your (medicines) approach. I worked at about 5 companies that covered different aspects of civil and structural engineering-everything from testing and inspection to actual construction and then went to work for a structural firm.

The one thing about engineers though is that if we screw up a bunch of people can die, not just one and we cant bury our mistakes they are out there for everyone to see. In addition a small screw up can cost millions of dollars even if no one is killed or injured. And we dont have other engineers trying to save our “highly” trained behinds like the medical profession does.

—
So true, and you forgot to memorize your prior representation that ‘Waynebro’, three ‘yous’ ago at least, whom you profess NOT to be, is the same troll who claimed a 17-year employment history as a data ENGINEER/security consultant. Doh!

Busted, Wayne – you and your ‘principles’!
Your spelling still sucks.

You know even less about the level of skill and intense hands-on training required to pass licensing toward the successful practice of medicine, than you do about what constitutes being called an engineer.

ng: Thank you

I would submit to you that there is an equal danger to accepting whole cloth the assertions of the Center for Constitutional Rights with regard to detainee treatment, as there is with accepting the findings of the Department of Defense’s internal report.

Your quote from the CCR:
“Solitary confinement, sensory deprivation, environmental manipulation, and sleep deprivation are daily realities for these men and have led to the steady deterioration of their physical and psychological health.

In addition, detainees are subjected to brutal physical assaults by the Immediate Reaction Force (IRF), a team of military guards comparable to a riot squad, who are trained to respond to alleged ‘disciplinary infractions’ with overwhelming force. Detainees have also been deprived of virtually all meaningful contact with their families, and have suffered interference with and abuse related to their right to practice their religion.”

CCR is not just an impartial non-profit studying the conditions of confinement. Their lawyers are advocates on behalf of detainees, and their information is directly derived from that representation. CCR as an organization has never been granted unfettered access to the facilities in the manner that the International Committee of the Red Cross has. Would you say that those detainees’ statements are self-serving? Of course. Might those statements be skewed to enhance a certain agenda, for example, to persuade (or manipulate) the larger human rights community into pushing for their release?

You would not hesitate one bit to proclaim that the “Walsh Report” on the conditions of detention at Guantanamo was self-serving, and thus unreliable. Forgetting for the moment that it was the internal investigations published in the Church and Schmidt-Furlow reports that brought many of the abuses at Guantanamo to light in the first place.

The Seton Hall report that you cite for the proposition that “most of the people are Gitmo aren’t terrorists” is skewed as well — first of all, the authors are counsel for two detainees. And, while the use of statistics has a tendency to impart the imprimatur of “truthiness,” the portrayal of those statistics is still a subjective matter. The report concludes that 55% of detainees “are not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies” — the implication being that 45% did commit hostile acts. Hardly what I’d call strong support for your assertion.

I’m not a strong supporter of what the prior administration did with regard to making counterterrorism a warfighting function. But it irks me equally to see such kneejerk statements from those who should know better than to swallow everything that is fed to them without question.

You ignore my challenges, because you can’t argue with me.
I’d call that ‘weak’!

I’m seldom wrong because I don’t speak with confidence about matters I’m less than sure about. It’s one of my major pet peeves, in fact.

In my business, patient’s lives depend on making the right call…

you are not very selfaware are you. Physcian heal thyself and take to heart the admonition about the unexamined life.

While its admirable you are a doctor, I have met many doctors that are particullary dull witted (I have not met you so I am not implying anything) and I wonder how they made it through medical school. Do not make the mistake that many (doctors) do and that is “I have gone to medical school so the rest of you are ignorant”.

Memorization is easy applying principals is a little bit harder.

You spend much of your post time with personal attacks against me. It is very ignorant of you to keep doing this. Again I will say personal attacks are weak and unprofessional. I will just ignore your posts from now on. The only reason I didn’t more recently is because you denied the existence of torture.

You brought up DAR/SAR as if it was sufficient to put the argument to rest.

‘Parallel to the shore…!’

Against my better judgment, I allowed myself to get sucked in again. It’s unlikely to recur.

At this stage of my experience, it would be magnanimous, indeed, to suggest Jill simply doesn’t know, that she doesn’t know, what she is talking about. However, that is not my belief.

My intuitive sense holds the same objections I’ve held with regard to George Bush et al for 8 years toward a certain willingness to advance a preconceived agenda at he cost of the truth. And all the while proclaiming they were ‘protecting America from the terrorists’.

Some people called that ‘politics’. I call it something else entirely.

And I still say Bron98 is BB, CMM, Waynebro etc. The first thing Bartlebee did here was to attack my ancestry – for no reason. Btw,’data engineer/security consultant, whatever that is,’ doesn’t count as ‘Engineer’. I’ve known several engineers
- mechanical and civil, including a few of my medical colleagues AND my ‘Yalie’ grandfather, may he RIP.

I owe you an apology if I was too critical earlier. I do like you both and your valuable posts. I like the others endorse detentes. I wanted to apologize if that last post was surly or mean spirited in any way. That was not my intention. By way of explanation but not excuse, I’ve been under the weather lately and I know myself well enough to know it can make me snappier than I mean to be. Upon rereading that last post, I thought I owed you both that.

I actually do not have anything against Mr. Biden. I thought that his plagiarism 2 decades ago was inexplicably disingenuous, but I think that he is one of the more decent national public servants.

Katie,

Professor Turley explained clearly and succinctly why these diplomatic gaffs matter.

While it is nice work if you can get it, I would eschew the papal role. His Holiness Pope Giovanni I has a special ring to it, but your wardrobe hasn’t included pointy hats before, and Mrs. Turley would be quite surprised by your celibacy vow. And the kids … that would take quite bit of explaining to the Roman Curia.

With no right at all to say, I would second JT’s comments and join in his plea for peace. You both are articulate spokespersons for your particular points of view, and passionate advocates. The sniping however detracts from the discussion, the merits of the criticism notwithstanding. JT’s solution is a good one, and selfishly allows me the luxury of hearing both points of view.

JT and I disagree only on one point. I think the historical reference might be more properly made to the Treaty of Kadesh: The scene is 1274 BCE and the setting is ancient Syria, the Egyptians and Hitties have just fought the most recent battle of a seemingly unending war that both sides could rightly claim both honor and partial victory. Faced with other external threats, both their rulers, “Hatusiliš III and Ramesses [sought] to end their dispute and sign a peace treaty. Both sides could not afford the possibility of a longer conflict since they were threatened by other enemies: Egypt was faced with the task of defending her long western border with Libya against the incursion of Libyan tribesmen … while the Hittites faced a more formidable threat in the form of the Assyrian Empire which “had conquered Hanigalbat, the heartland of Mitanni, between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers that had previously been a Hittite vassal state.

The peace treaty was recorded in two versions, one in Egyptian hieroglyphs, the other in Akkadian, using cuneiform script; fortunately, both versions survive. Such dual-language recording is common to many subsequent treaties. This treaty differs from others, however, in that the two language versions are differently worded. Although the majority of the text is identical, the Hittite version claims that the Egyptians came suing for peace, while the Egyptian version claims the reverse.” (from Wiki)

Given the myriad of common interests and common opponents which you both have, I am prepared to say you both have performed honorably, the other side first sued for peace, and that given the sheer volume and vociferousness of our common opposition you both have bigger fish to fry.

Here is a link about the profiles of detainees:

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/setonhalllaw?q=guantanamo+detainee+list&sa=Search+SHLS

Seton Hall University law students went through the records to list the people we detained and why. I’m putting in a link to their site–this particular one applies as well to another post about the 92 tapes destroyed by the CIA. They are detainees. See what you think of the information.

Jill

” Seton Hall Law Students Uncover Proof that Guantánamo Interrogations Routinely Videotaped
General Reports More than 24,000 Interrogations Conducted Since 2002;
Assertions that All Interrogations Were Videotaped Affect Impending 9/11 Trials”

http://law.shu.edu/administration/public_relations/press_releases/2008/guantanamo_interrogations_videotaped.htm

Do you mean terrorist business? becuase most of the people in Gitmo aren’t terrorists. Maybe you mean something else? If so, what?

Do you think that maybe they are not allowed to speak to people outside the prison, such as their family, so that they are not able to conduct business through their family.

First, from Center for Constitutional Rights:

“The applicable laws governing conditions of confinement at Guantánamo include Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, but also the more specific provisions of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions. Other relevant laws include international human rights treaties the United States has ratified protecting prisoners against unsafe or unhygienic conditions, torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and treaties protecting the rights of juveniles in detention. In addition, the Fifth and Eighth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution prohibit cruel and unusual punishment and protect prisoners against treatment that shocks the conscience, including unsafe conditions, the denial of social or family contact, and prolonged isolation. The First Amendment protects prisoners’ rights to religious texts and books.

Currently at Guantánamo, the majority of detainees are being held in conditions of solitary confinement in one of two super-maximum facilities – Camps 5 and 6 – or in Camp Echo. The conditions in these camps are harshly punitive and violate international and U.S. legal standards for the humane treatment of persons deprived of their liberty. Solitary confinement, sensory deprivation, environmental manipulation, and sleep deprivation are daily realities for these men and have led to the steady deterioration of their physical and psychological health.

In addition, detainees are subjected to brutal physical assaults by the Immediate Reaction Force (IRF), a team of military guards comparable to a riot squad, who are trained to respond to alleged “disciplinary infractions” with overwhelming force. Detainees have also been deprived of virtually all meaningful contact with their families, and have suffered interference with and abuse related to their right to practice their religion.”

Secondly, from today’s Guardian: (this will see a trial in the UK)

“Mohamed claimed MI5 was not only supplying his interrogators with background information, but forwarding lists of direct questions that they wanted him to be asked. One MI5 memo from November 2002 lists 11 questions sent to the Americans, asking for a “timescale” for when they could expect answers from interrogators. It states: “We would be grateful if the following could be put to Binyam Mohamed…”

Another MI5 document, dated 5 November 2002 and disclosed to Mohamed in preparation for a US court case, reveals how UK intelligence officials were keen to get involved in interrogating Mohamed in order to increase “pressure” on the 30-year-old prisoner.

Evidence of British collusion has appeared in the form of a telegram, also dated 5 November 2002, that was sent by MI5 to the CIA. Entitled “Request for further detainee questioning”, it revealed that British intelligence was passed to American officials, who then passed it to Moroccan authorities.”

The DAR/SAR and Dames of the Magna Carta are part of the problem with this country. Who gives a rats behind how far one can trace their lineage, the great thing about America is we are a country of new beginnings and limitless opportunity or at least we ought to be. Most of the DAR/SAR/DOM types are uptight & class conscious.

I did not vote for the man but for gods sake he has only been president for 6 weeks at least cut him some slack until May 5th.

And who the hell comes prepared for that job? Maybe God himself, but I think she may even have some problems with that job.

I don’t question that Patty. I’ll even stipulate some people are loathe to apologize, but this is mine to you and by way of clarification. I may read too much into it since I do see Jill has presentation errors in re torture. But she is consistent in her stated motive, which I have not seen deviate – truth and accountability to ANY power. I don’t have to explain to you this is one view I am sympathetic towards. In an abundance of sympathy, I may even be cutting her more slack than I should. Bias can be a function of affinity and no one is totally clear of bias of any sort. Truthfully, I’m more in line Mike S. assessment that is a bit of a one trick pony, but I for the reasons stated, refrained from calling her out any stronger that you had. The more pragmatic of the factors was that you stay on her with persistence. Why duplicate the effort?

My issue was merely with the term “disinformation”.

My point was the difference between the terms “disinformation” and “misapplied information”. I think if you accuse someone of spreading disinformation is implies organization and motive. One must have an idea one wishes to oppose and a way to oppose it if one is engaged in a battle of ideas. There has to be a motive so there has to a mens rea component. Her stated intent isn’t to deceive, but to show what she considers abusive and that it’s not being brought to a stop quick enough. Her errors have have been presentational, but not purposefully deceptive based on why she claims to relay said information. They even show a bit of naivety about how hard it is turn something around as large as a government. Like they say in the car mags, “It’s got horsepower and torque, but the handling sucks.” True, our knowledge of her motives are limited to what she tells us, but isn’t that always the case?

Now look at the word itself. Disinformation. Etymologically speaking, dis- comes to English via French’s des- rooted in Latin’s dis-. The form hasn’t changed much at all. dis- is defined as – 1. “lack of, not” (e.g. dishonest); 2. “do the opposite of” (e.g. disallow); 3. “apart, away” (e.g. discard), from O.Fr. des-, from L. dis- “apart,” from PIE *dis- “apart, asunder” (cf. O.E. te-, O.S. ti-, O.H.G. ze-, Ger. zer-). The PIE root is a secondary form of *dwis- and is thus related to L. bis “twice” (originally *dvis) and to duo, on notion of “two-ways, in twain.” (source http://www.etymonline.com)

And just as with Jill, my concern here is purely presentational. “Disinformation” should be reserved for technical discussion. There is no need to use the term without that context as English already has the word “mistake”. And what is a mistake but misapplied information? If we assume Jill’s stated motive is as presented, it is not contrary to many of the pro-liberties sensibilities expressed here, but indeed in alignment. This make the word “disinformation” inappropriate because it it both inaccurate and carries a value you load associated with mens rea.

Attribute it to me having a Carlin moment over the word if you must, but I really think “disinformation” aside from being a word is a technical term. That’s critical as it’s a term of art and fundamental precept in both propaganda and it’s even more evil brother, psychological warfare. To use it out of context is a disservice to the language as it weakens the value of the word.

In a year and a half, Jill has never once backed off a challenge of mine over any misstatement of fact by her on any issue from politics to medicine. Not one time.

She certainly has no monopoly on concern over the fate of this country and, in my opinion, vastly overestimates her significance toward contributing anything to the conversation because her ideas are not her own. She cuts and pastes to support an anti-Obama agenda.

The plight of this country is, on the other hand, very personal to me, because of my family’s Plymouth Colony and DAR/SAR War history. I grew up with it!

I don’t live in her ‘world’ nor would I want to. It’s full of handwringing negativity based on fear rooted in self-imposed ignorance.

And if I want to attack anything, I’d say that in so being, it disregards the truth to support only a ‘possible’ world view.
Or I might suggest she is just lazy. Cutting and pasting someone else’s work doesn’t equate learning with knowledge or wisdom.

In fact, I’d be willing to bet she still hasn’t viewed the CSPAN clip of the Patrick Walsh Pentagon briefing on Gitmo which I posted two weeks ago in response to the same ‘disinformation’ she repeated about the current status there – yet again.

Maybe there is a difference in terms here. I don’t find what Jill does to rise to the standard of disinformation. Sure, she’s passionate and her liberal bias burns brightly. She can be a little hasty, but I think I understand where her sense of urgency comes from even when I don’t always share it. Changing any process of complexity requires time, but not acting is still an action. It’s just the wrong one in this instance, also a proposition I don’t think would come under fire here. The differences seem to be as to method. The erosion of liberty is a serious matter and that is something I don’t think any of the regulars would disagree with in the slightest. Disinformation and misapplied information are not necessarily the same though they may look alike.

Now I know you and Jill have been going back and forth since before I got here and I’m not foolish enough to get right in the middle for two reasons. I both read and understand Sally’s icon and both of you are often right.

What I seek here is a clarity of terms. Disinformation vs. misapplied information.

Jill’s use of information though, if you must characterize it, I think is more in the misapplied category rather than the disinformation category. This distinction my be entirely my own because of how I view propaganda, but it comes down to veracity. When Jill is confronted with a factual refutation of her cites, she backs off or retracts them. I’ve seen her admit she’s wrong before. That’s not the hallmark of disinformation. A campaign of disinformation would press untruths as truths no matter what. Repetition as so duly noted. While her persistence is a tactical similarity to a disinformation campaign, that is the only similarity that I see.

Do I see where your frustration with Jill’s methods comes from? You bet. But while you may disagree with her application of what she learns, I’ve never found her to be disingenuous or motivated to use the pure lie. She may be a little over zealous and/or tactically awkward, but that’s far from being somebody pushing a false agenda for nefarious purpose. To me, that is true disinformation.

George Bush did that regularly and we all know how that turned out!

1. The gift gaffe will be quickly forgotten.

2. Jill & others bold enough to criticize Obama in this forum may sound like Cassandra now… but we all know how that turned out.

Why? Humans expressing heart is natural. I don’t want to hug everyone lottakatz, no not when a shake will do.

That square is some kind of Freudian slip?!

“They did shake hands after all. They did that old, tired greeting ritual wherein the sword or weapon hand (normally, the right hand) was extended empty and grasped by each other. Really, most of these rituals are dated but I don’t think men are going to stop shaking hands tomorrow just because it’s a dated social convention.”

The pericardium meridian has a point in the palm of the hand and at the end of the middle finger. Symbolically and energetically a hand shake for me conveys a heart to heart exchange.

“Try ignoring the handshake ritual as needlessly vestigial with your boss, father-in-law or a client the next time they visit, or a stranger the next time you’re introduced in a business or formal setting.”

Why? Humans expressing heart is natural. I don’t want to hug everyone lottakatz, no not when a shake will do. 

“…many here in Britain thinks it time we take a vacation from being your ally…”

*********
Ah pseudo-Brit, it’s referred to as “holiday” in Britain, not “vacation,” but then again you already knew that I suppose.