I think it fits that energy was created before matter. I’m a bit of an amateur regarding science but I’m open to discussing it.

And God created day and night. I thouhgt it was amusing that the first thing created at the Big Bang was……..Light. Your thoughts?

I was made aware of that by an atheist who had done a bit more research than me. My point was that, for the most part, Josephus’ works are taken as historically reliable yet many are very quick to say that Scripture is not.

I think it’s pretty obvious what my comment “has to do with
‘it’”

There have been hundreds of new hESC lines created since 2001 when Bush drew the line at ’21′. Some disease specific and some free of animal proteins, yet only $200M in US government grant funds awarded in the last eight years.

Our researchers here say this legislation will make a lot of difference in the types of cells they can study. For example, some researchers studying the Fragile-X mutation have had trouble getting the cells and working with them on campus grounds. A researcher specifically studying Parkinson disease said this will open up her research to different kinds of cells.

Still, we have our pro-lifers who are grousing that this invades the dignity of human life. I don’t get it. Do they believe a human being comes from God or from a glass dish? If they believe in an all-knowing God, don’t they also believe that this God can tell the difference between a future human being and simply a fertilized egg?

“What parts were allegorical?

No one claims that Josephus was allegorical, why do so with the Gospels?”

***********************
Ok with me Clint but you have to believe in flight without technology (Acts 1:1-11), extraterrestrial visitors (Hebrews 1:14), ghostly apparitions ((Luke 24:37-39), and a society where the dead rise from their tombs on a given day and no one seems surprised enough to mention it (Matt 27:51-53). You can believe what you want to believe.

By the way, many historians believe the reference to Jesus in Josephus was inserted later by a pious but over-zealous member of the faithful. Like the religious right of our day, a little forgery in furtherance of the faith overcame any notion of scruples. Even if you accept Josphus’ account as accurate you must be taken aback when other ancient historians like Origen clearly state that Josephus did not believe that Jesus was the Christ.

I recently posted here with the announcement of the first human trial at the end of January.

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/22/medical-study-finds-direct-link-between-reducing-pollution-and-extending-lives/

Stem cell labs have continued to expand hESC research outside of Bush-era restrictions, but they have routinely been prohibited from sharing the same staff, equipment, and supplies funded by (NIH) government grants, to do it.

Restricted research, under Bush, required maintenance of duplicate staff and equipment as well as the procurement of separate ‘private’ funding.

In 2007, three different groups reported the production of iPS (Induced Pluripotent Stem cells) which entailed the injection of different combinations of genes into ‘specialized’ cells, like skin cells, reprogramming them to unspecialized cell states similar to the ‘pluripotence’ of embryonic stem cells.

While iPS share similar characteristics to embyronic stem cells, they are not identical to ‘hESC’s.

In a truly free society I ought to be able to sell my kidney or a part of my liver or a lung or some skin to the highest bidder. I have a “right” to my body to do with it as I see fit, there are no ethical considerations necessary only that the purchaser and the seller agree on the price and the particulars of the sale.

If this was allowed we would not be short of organs for people that need them.

I bet if we got to see cheney’s medical records your questions would be answered! I think it was the NYT that wrote a piece on the organ “donor” network a while back.

That brings up a point about human trafficking. Whenever a story is run on this topic the focus always seems to be sex trade and occasionally labor, but I wonder how much “black” medical experiments or procedures factor into that? Surely someone without qualms about buying a black market organ is but a short step from entering mad scientist territory.

I agree this may be the case and I’m glad Obama has lifted these restrictions. It does seem other avenues may be more fruitful, but there are some really bad diseases that might be cured or at least amelioration by this therapy and I’d like to see all avenues explored.

I do think there are real ethical concerns, that, thanks to bush, our country is behind other nations in addressing. We should get cracking on thoughtful rules because it won’t be the first time that science without ethics has landed us in a disaster. There’s a teen book, that while, written a little too heavy handedly, speaks to where this all may go someday. It’s called: “House of the Scorpian” by Nancy Farmer. If it was edited down it would make a fantastic movie.

It addresses what happens with research in the context of a social system, like ours, where the rich are able to use the poor for their own purposes. This already happens with kidney “donations” by the poor in India and China for example. So I’m glad this ban was lifted but we need an immediate ethical review.

Perhaps the reason that there haven’t been many big breakthroughs using hESC (they have been recently been approved for testing in a couple of applications) is that in the US their use has been restricted to pre-existing lines since for the past 6 or 7 years (at least for institutions using any Government grant, which is almost every university, research hospital, etc.). Several of those lines have recently been shown to be contaminated.

Just to make sure everyone is clear on where embryonic stem cells come from, they are harvested from blastocysts. Which are formed 4-5 days after fertilization, have only 50-150 cells, and have not implanted themselves on the Uterine Wall. Left over Blastocysts are routinely destroyed after a successful In Vitro Fertilization. In 2007 3 new lines were created w\o destroying the parent embryo. There is also some hope that stem cells found in the fluid surrounding a fetus would be usable. Both of those last two were illegal under the old Bush Policy.

As a final reminder the difference between an adult stem cell and embryonic is that adult stem cells have already become differentiated, severely limiting their use.

“I’ll sign on to that. Just as you can’t blame the writers of the Gospel stories (who clearly were writing in the allegorical context of their times),for the literalistic bent of some of the present day followers.”

What parts were allegorical?

No one claims that Josephus was allegorical, why do so with the Gospels?

Interesting. I did not know the origin of that phrase. Thank you for making my day complete.

With the addition of the word ‘ WHERE’, and read in context, it’s easy to see Gray was not commenting on the questionable wisdom of willfully clinging to ignorance in Life, as some propose.

Rather, given ‘the alternative’ ie Death, ‘possibility’ is still alive – in ‘Youth’ and in the simple ‘unknowing’ of one’s Fate in advance.

http://www.eliteskills.com/c/4472

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/august-j-pollak/going-galt_b_172962.html

The old ax that ignorance is bliss? What is dogma but ossification of thought or abdication of new thought? Is that not a form of ignorance? Long ago I learned something from dealing with the Japanese and the Koreans. Many of them, if you were to ask them their “religion”, you’d get a blank look. Not that they didn’t understand the words, but that they didn’t understand the nature of the question. Many of them don’t subscribe to one faith, one dogma, but rather pick and choose between the wealth of religious and philosophical thought at their disposal to pick a path that works for them. Pigeon holing to a single dogmatic thought process is less in their tradition than it is in Western culture. Even those who do self-identify with Western religions often carry bits of Buddhism, Taoism and Shinto with them to inform their new system. To me, dogma is like going to the best restaurant in town and ordering the same thing every day. It gets the job done and you may be happy with it most of the time but after a while, you just start eating it because it’s habit, not because you are hungry. Satisfaction has taken second chair to nutrition and happiness. The more Eastern ala carte method is counter to dogma and it’s rigidity by it’s very nature. Some people find the structure and consistency comforting, just like ordering the same thing. When you stray from dogma, it can be scary like ordering a new untried dish, but it can also be as simple as reaching for the pepper. Variety is the spice of life. And given my proclivity for the random as evidenced by our earlier conversations about physics, it’s not hard to tell I like spice and variety. I’ll even stipulate I probably like it more than most. But like mom’s around the globe have been saying since the beginning of human history, “How do you know you don’t like it if you haven’t tried it?” To me, that is the failing of dogma in any flavor, philosophical or religious. It’s a zany world out there, so why not enjoy the best dish for the occasions?

I generally agree with most (as stated above I am a 75 percenter) of the ideas she presents and I have spent a good deal of time thinking about them and trying to apply them in my own life. I am a member of a blog run by an objectivist philosopher and he runs it pretty rigidly, there is no counter point (that is the great thing about this blog) although some of the discussions are good they are limited to objectivism and how it can be applied in different situations. I sometimes write to the posters privately (the blog itself is set up so that the blog master screens the posts and posts which ones he likes) and on a couple of occasions I have disagreed with certain objectivists paradigms I have never heard from those people again. Ut oh an apostate a pox on his head type of thing.

So that is why I think at least some practioners are or can be dogmatic. I think Mespo’s analysis got to the heart of the matter.

Its very hard being a human being, I think that the majority of us want to do the right thing we just dont know what the right thing is sometimes. Maybe to be dogmatic is bliss.

the community issue is I think a valid point. People are by our nature gregarious animals and enjoy people of similar constitution. I actually havent been around many objectivists, I ve only met three face to face, one was a scientist, one a CFO and the other a restraunt owner. And they all had the personality that fit their chosen profession. I liked the restaraunt owner the best, he was gregarious and had that hale fellow well met attitude. Interestingly he was an Italian immigrant. The scientist and the CFO were not all that interesting pretty same same and not much personality.

So based on my ad hoc survey I would say that objectivists (and I really dont count myself as one because I dont follow all of the tenents, call me a 75 percenter) are people that have a road map for life and use principles to analyse events. Much like the people on this blog with the exception that objectivists are very firm believers in capitalism. They also are very serious about individual rights. But it does seem soulless in some respects.

“F” is for Freeper. I heard you guys are getting pretty worked up over there.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2197561/posts?page=1

If you were grading Barack Obama on his performance as president, what would he get? * 28829 responses

He gets an A
25%

He gets a B
6.1%

He gets a C
4.5%

He gets a D
11%

He gets an F
54%

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29493093/

This is an MSNBC poll!

Even the 100,000 left wingers that leer at Racheal and laugh at Olbermann’s obesity can’t stand Obama anymore.

You can only hear so many lies, see so much of your retirement disappear, and hear only so many stories from your working relatives about getting tired of footing the bill for the slackers in America before you also say to HELL with Obama.

I’ll sign on to that. Just as you can’t blame the writers of the Gospel stories (who clearly were writing in the allegorical context of their times),for the literalistic bent of some of the present day followers, I wouldn’t blame Ayn Rand for some of her followers deifying Howard Roark.

Well there you have it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29493093/

If you were grading Barack Obama on his performance as president, what would he get? (68,236 responses)

He gets an A
26%

He gets a B
6.2%

He gets a C
4.6%

He gets a D
11%

He gets an F
52%
Not a scientific survey. Click to learn more. Results may not total 100% due to rounding.

thanks, I think you hit the nail on the head with “It’s not the fault of the philosophy, but rather lies in the insecurities of the followers”.

to use an alagorical device:
They use the philosophy like kids use water wings to learn to swim, the kids that learn to swim have the strokes (principles down) learned and can branch out on their own in the pool of knowledge. the ones that dont learn so well keep the water wings (dogma) on and basically just tread water in the pool afraid to establish their own philosophy for lack of intellectual confidence.

Is that a good alagory or are you trying to say something else, I always wonder what other thoughts are implied in some of your musings.

You tell ‘em dango. It’s just like that fool John Sutter who moved to California in 1840 and spent his entire fortune and eight long years working some worthless sawmill on the banks of the American River. Here’s a little except about how that “ignorant, stupid, fool,” got snookered and the “NOTHING….NADA……ZIP,” that ensued.

“On the morning of January 24, 1848, a carpenter named James Marshall was building a water-powered sawmill for trader John Sutter along a river in California. Near the bottom of a waterway that Marshall’s men had been digging, something yellow was glittering. Marshall scooped up the object and said later, “It made my heart thump. I was certain it was gold.”

Triggered by Marshall’s discovery, 80,000 people swarmed into the California territory in 1849, the first year of the Gold Rush. Quickly the settlers moved to draw up a Constitution and California was admited to the Union. The new settlers, often called “forty-niners” for the year when they had come searching for gold, lived a hard life of panning for gold in every stream and river throughout California. Some made it rich, but most did not.”

Damn fool that Sutter for trying to do things that couldn’t be done, and for trying to do them first.

Maybe mespo is on to something there. Rigidity of thought is a danger in any analytical endeavor. You’ve mentioned the word “dogmatic” a couple of times. Is your disenchantment more with the inflexible approach or the school of thought? A little of both?

Can anyone tell me of a single success with the many hundreds of viable embryonic lines being used?

Can anyone tell me what the 3 BILLION dollars of California (remember?)taxpayers money California threw at embryonic stem cell studies got them besides 3 BILLION dollars wasted.

You ignorant stupid people here quickly forget that almost 5 BILLION dollars of California taxpayer money, Federal money, and PRIVATE investment money has been thrown at embryonic stem cell research and the result is ………….NOTHING….NADA……ZIP!

Ideologues can coalesce around any philosophy, and their thought calcifies as they become more an more enraptured with the program. It’s not the fault of the philosophy, but rather lies in the insecurities of the followers. Problem is followers grow up to be leaders and then take the reasonable original propositions to extreme lengths. Again I refer you to Frank Schaeffer’s book, “Crazy for God,” where the point is vividly made.

And now a word from our sponsor…. The good web site linked by our friend here is just another “Christian” business (a la Falwell, Robertson, et al, ad nauseum–I suppose Jews and Muslims need not apply) plying its wares and “debt relief” services under a marketing plan straight from the pearly gates. At some point, I am hoping that the Christian Right crowd, dull-witted and as easily led as they are, will figure these godly profit-takers out (WWJC-see below))and arise as one (they like that imagery) and question those who use religion as a business entre’. I am not holding my breath. A recent interview by D.L. Hughley with “Crazy for God” author Frank Schaeffer revealed as much and lots more about those who would pre(a)y on people’s religion as a gateway to their pocketbooks.

Many, though likely not all, “debt relief agencies,” are nothing more than scam machines bilking already desperate consumers out of whatever they have or can borrow, and of course I have no idea on which side of the divide CDR falls. But as the FTC warns, “In the last few years, the Federal Trade Commission has sued more than dozen debt relief companies. “They simply lie to consumers,” says the FTC’s Alice Hrdy.”

For more information on the deplorable practices of some of these helpful financial folks see the following:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18155301/

To read more about our friend here, check out the website. It makes interesting reading and compels me to ask just, “What Would Jesus Charge (WWJC)?”

Back in 2001 George W. Bush restricted funding stem cell research to only a few stem cells that had been created prior to Aug. 9, 2001. This decision was based on politics and religion rather than science. Since then the rest of the world has taken a huge step forward in understanding and bringing commercial products closer to the market than the U.S.

For those unaware embryonic stem cells are pluripotent, meaning they have the ability to form into any cell type that make up the human body. Scientists across the globe (except the U.S.) hope to utilize them to regenerate brain cells lost in Parkinson’s, repairing spinal cord injuries as well as treating diabetes, cancer, heart disease, multiple sclerosis and many more defects. Stem cells also help in understanding the human development and growth of diseases. If scientists can map the growth of a disease they will have a greater chance at forming treatments.

Let’s think of how many Americans are suffering from the aforementioned ailments and what this research can do for them. I’m sure everyone reading this knows someone important to them that is affected by one of these maladies. Research in the U.S.has not progressed since earlier this decade, cures are a very long time away and lets not even discuss the approval requirement by the FDA. At least this can be seen as a huge step forward to join the rest of the world at bringing about cures that could help millions of people including you and I some day.

I may be faster, but don’t undersell yourself.

Your first post about there being no moral dilemma at all with stem cell research is right on the money for me as well. Thanks for saving my typing fingers–both of them.

eniobob

You’re paying taxes for ’08? Congratulations! What the heck are you complaining about? You may be only dude in North America who made enough money last year to actually owe any taxes.

Bron

I’ve read Atlas Shrugged twice (and The Fountainhead once) and was enthralled by Objectivism in my twenties (I’ll be 60 this summer). Ultimately, I came to the conclusion that there is solid value in the self-repect and self-reliance and goal attainment aspects of Objectivism, but in the end it has no soul or conscience and lacksa recognition of the human need for community.

In Ayn Rand’s utopia, the GWBush administration’s laisse-faire policies toward business should have brought prosperity to all in perpetuity. Instead, that unbridled capitalism bred and fostered selfishness, dishonesty and greed.

This is a serious question, at least for me, the more I interact with objectivists the more I question objectivism. They seem to me rather dogmatic if that is the right word. They are in their own way as unrelenting in their objectivism as evangelicals are in their Christianity. Most take on “faith” what AR has developed and it has in some respects turned into the cult of AR, something I know she would not have wanted.

They use “reason” like Christians use faith. But I am not sure the “reason” they use is correct. Can you provide some insight into what I am trying to get at?

Dear IRS,

I am sorry to inform you that I will not be able to pay taxes owed April 15, but all is not lost. I have paid these taxes: accounts receivable tax, building permit tax, CDL tax, cigarette tax, corporate income tax, dog license tax, federal income tax, unemployment tax, gasoline tax, hunting license tax, fishing license tax, waterfowl stamp tax, inheritance tax, inventory tax, liquor tax, luxury tax, Medicare tax, city, school and county property tax (up 33 percent last 4 years), real estate tax, social security tax, road usage tax, toll road tax, state and city sales tax, recreational vehicle tax, state franchise tax, state unemployment tax, telephone federal excise tax, telephone federal state and local surcharge tax, telephone minimum usage surcharge tax, telephone state and local tax, utility tax, vehicle license registration tax, capitol gains tax, lease severance tax, oil and gas assessment tax, Colorado property tax, Texas, Colorado, Wyoming, Oklahoma and New Mexico sales tax, and many more that I can’t recall but I have run out of space and money.

When you do not receive my check April 15, just know that it is an honest mistake.. Please treat me the same way you treated Democrat Congressmen Charles Rangle, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and ex-Congressman Tom Dashelle and, of course, your boss Timothy Geithner. No penalties and no interest.

Sincerely,
Ed Barnett
Wichita Falls

P.S. I will make at least a partial payment as soon as I get my stimulus check.

“I have, with my rethorical skills, converted you to objectivism at long last.”

***********************

You have indeed. I ‘m right there with Ayn Rand until she starts lecturing me about the bountiful fruits of unrestrained laissez faire capitalism — there we part company. I am more of a free trader than you know, but as in most things I avoid complete devotion to, or condemnation of, any philosophy. Call me an anarchist.

I have, with my rethorical skills, converted you to objectivism at long last. Maybe not on every issue but at least I have my foot in the door. Now on to free markets………

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/us/politics/10signing.html

I have heard the same thing. That would be a large part of the “huge problem” I mentioned.

did I not read/hear/see recently where an embryonic stem cell research protocol went awry when the subject developed cancer as a direct result of the ESC?