Holder’s response about prosecutions, begging the high sign from the administration, has to do with the establishment of time lines pre-memo vs. post – ie by use of the worda “In advance”…

Obama uses the term ‘policy differences’ therby avoiding avoiding the assertion that the policy was fashioned around the position, because he doesn’t KNOW that.

There IS a difference, and it doesn’t stand firmly on its own merit, in my view.

Also, you don’t remove a person’s possible defenses against prosection and judgments by Foreign courts OR even State courts by giving them a Federal pardon, which in effect, constitutes an admission by the mere acceptance of same.

And you can’t pardon people without their acceptance. Potential pardons, usually, go through an in-depth application process instituted BY the potential recipient… There have been questionable exceptions, I might add.

George Bush didn’t even try that tactic before leaving office, as many predicted, ie feared, he would.

In fact, I dared him to try…!

Again, a liability insurance policy does not exist for illegal acts. While this may seem to be a minor issue, I can pretty much assure it isn’t…

This is good news. I was thinking– why couldn’t Obama do what Bruce Fein said. He could issue a pardon to all the low level officers if and only if they gave a complete account of their actions. Should that account ever be found to have been imcomplete, the pardon would be void and they would serve hard time.

Further, theee men and women should be fired from jobs in our govt. They are welcome to keep their pensions but having people in one’e govt. who are willing to torture is a recipe for disaster.

I’m so happy that the international community isn’t just rolling over on this. The US uses many clubs on other nations–it’s how we got the “coalition of the willing”–through the use of threats. So it is impressive that the UN, and poassably Spain and Poland will take us on.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Rapporteur

United Nations Special Rapporteur

Special Rapporteur is a title given to individuals working on behalf of the United Nations who bear a specific mandate from the UN Human Rights Council (or the former UN Commission on Human Rights, UNCHR), to investigate, monitor and recommend solutions to human rights problems. They are also called “Special Procedures”.

Appointed by the UN Secretary General, these experts are “of high moral character and recognized competence in the field of human rights.” They act independently of governments. They do not receive any financial compensation for their work, but they receive personnel and logistical support from the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Some of these experts are called Special Representatives or Independent Experts.

Special Rapporteurs often conduct fact-finding missions to countries to investigate allegations of human rights violations. They can only visit countries that have agreed to invite them.

Aside from fact-finding missions, Rapporteurs regularly assess and verify complaints from alleged victims of human rights violations. Once a complaint is verified as legitimate, an urgent letter or appeal is sent to the government that has allegedly committed the violation

Man, my fingers are still drunk.

If one ever finds themselves in Lawrence, KS, might I suggest a visit to the Freestate Brewery. The Ad Astra Ale, the Stromwatch Ale and the Backus Barleywine (their spelling) are three of the finer cereal malt beverages I’ve ever had pleasure to imbibe. Watch out for the barleywine though. It’s got a kick.

Most excellent. Let’s gets as much international pressure as possible so as to force Obama’s hand on the Neocons who placed the order. Too bad Spain’s AG is a lightweight. Let’s hope Judge Garzón, a past friend to liberty, comes through again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418

Poison Pill. I promise you.

Matthew,
Stay with it. Hope don’t come easy, but commitment at least drives away helpless feelings. The greatest enemy we all have is the belief that we are powerless to change our lives and/or the world around us. This is a message we are being fed by the people who have the most to gain. They are awash in greed and the lust for power. It makes their life easier if we leave it at “you can’t fight City Hall.” We owe ourselves and our fellow humans the duty to try to make our country and humanity the best it can be.

“Will They Be Prosecuted?”
by Scott Horton

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-17/will-they-be-prosecuted/

“Within a period of only a few hours, however, Judge Garzón issued an opinion on the matter. He rejected the application for a transfer to Judge Moreno saying he disagreed with the prosecutors’ analysis and felt the case should remain in his hands. However, recognizing the prosecutors’ objection, Garzón referred the case to the chief judge of the Audiencia Nacional’s penal chamber to make the final call as to whom the case should be referred. The case of the Bush Six is therefore now back in the court’s assignment system.

Lawyers familiar with Audiencia Nacional practices advise me that the chief judge usually decides questions about the referral of cases extremely quickly, in a matter of only a few days. If that holds in this case, then next week we should learn the identity of the judge who will decide whether the Bush Six case will move into the next phase of criminal investigation, or will be dropped.”

So this is a civil action. Of course his attorneys are appealing the decision.

While emotionally, I’d like to see these people hang high, it’s called the rule of law because it’s the rule of law. If you don’t like the law, that’s OK, I don’t either. Get it changed. But please don’t ignore what’s really going on in order to comment on what’s going on that you don’t like (and I don’t either). We have to keep some connection to reality here.

I am no idiot in matters of politics, as many others here, obviously, are!

Christ…!!!

Many people seem optimistic that the door isn’t shut on this decision. Call me cynical, but I really don’t think that raising hell on the Internet and giving my Congressmen and Senators a few calls and emails is going to change anything. The real power can only come from large PACs and whatnot, and the only one willing to stand up for the American people is the ACLU. Unfortunately for all Americans, the ACLU either runs a terrible PR campaign or the GOP/right wing runs an outstanding smear campaign against them. I guess there could also be leftover fear/distrust/contempt for the ACLU leftover from the Cold War, though I did not live through any of that so I can’t really comment (all I know is that the ACLU was associated with the “Reds” and we all know how much Americans hate “Reds”). I’ll do whatever I can to pressure the Justice Department to do the right thing, but I’m sorry to say I don’t share the optimism that others here do.

My fear is that President Obama, who is failing in so many ways to change the status quo, will ruin any chances that progressives have for the future in the way that Lyndon Johnson and his Great Society did.

I do not agree that if Obama is doing the same things that Bush and Co is being complained about should be made aright.

I voted for Ralph Nader, so I say this with all sincerity. The issue of being president or not is a moot point. He is in fact the president. Just like Bush stole the first election from Florida which eventually cost him his brothers job. His best friend and political mentor ran against him as a Democrat and won. You tell me how that played out.

The second time Bush stole the election was in OHIO. You tell me that it was not stolen when UNEMPLOYMENT was at an all time high. Plants were shutting down that a Republican won this state? Come on, they are still finding ballot boxes that were not counted.

The fact is BUSH stole the elections Johnson style. Well in Grander style than Johnson, more people were watching. Waiting for the miscreant to do it again. So, since he was the President and he needed justification for keeping his job. He did what he had to do.

Further information: Oath of office of the President of the United States

“Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

As I noted again last night, even Leon Panetta does not regard this as the ‘end of the road’ on these issues. In his words, there will be more requests and inquiries from the public and Congress. The least the CIA can offer is a buffer to costly prosecution and potential judgements.

Also, as I’ve noted previously several times, there is no liability insurance policy that covers illegal acts. To afford coverage or deny it for defense and/or indemnification, one would have nail down the specific time line of events for the supposed reliance on ‘Dummies on Justice’ memos, as the current law, at the time.

At this juncture, my sense is to expect a pissing contest
-defensively drawn out and stinky to boot and definitely NOT
what we need at the moment!

Patience…

Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 20:47:49 -0700 (PDT)

Beaumont Police Department
Beaumont TX
Attn: Officer Ronald Dischler

Dear Mr. Dischler,

My name is Dr. Orly Taitz, I am an attorney representing over 130 members of the US military, 10 state representatives, ambassador Keyes and other citizens, questioning legitimacy of Mr. Barack Hussein Obama aka Barry Soetoro for presidency. Among them are following citizens of the State of Texas:

LTC Chetwin Hurd
SGNT Morgan Samuel Ward
Capt. Ralph H. Jenkins
SGNT Jeffrey Wayne Rosner
LCDR Jeff Graham Winthrope
Mr. Richard D. Sanders
Mrs. Jody Brockhausen

While doing research of this case, I’ve uncovered a number of instances of suspected illegal and criminal activity by Mr. Obama and his supporters. As an officer of the court I have a solemn duty to report such activity to the law enforcement and demand immediate investigation, subpoena of the records and prosecution to the full extend of the law.

Mr. Obama has availed himself to the jurisdiction of the state of Texas as he put his name as a candidate for president on the ballot here and additionally he came and campaigned here.

Please see attached reports, that should help in your investigation. Reports contain a computerized image of Certification of life birth for Mr. Obama and Certification of Selective Service and statements from experts, showing those documents to exhibit numerous signs of forgery.

It is my understanding that in the State of Texas forgery is a class C felony that carries up to 10 years in the state penitentiary. On two counts of forgery Mr. Obama might be facing up to 20 years in jail in the state of Texas alone, since those counts run consecutively. Since Mr. Obama has availed himself to the jurisdiction of 50 states with similar statutes, he might be facing 1,000 years in state penitentiaries around the country on forgery charges alone. Additionally, there are numerous counts of suspected fraud, voter fraud, mail fraud, wire fraud, corruption of a public official, intimidation, interference with the system of justice, social security fraud, tax fraud, perjury and other related crimes. As the National Security is at stake, I would request your immediate attention to this matter and expedient report with a report number of the suspected criminal activity and subpoena of Mr. Obama’s vital records, such as his original vault long version birth certificate in Hawaii, passports from Indonesia and Kenya, immigration records, certification of selective service, school registration from Occidental College, Harvard university and Columbia University.

I am attaching a 164 page dossier of suspected illegal activity. You can find more documents for download on my blog http://www.repubx.com

Sincerely,
Dr. Orly Taitz Esq

26302 La Paz ste 211
Mission Viejo Ca 92691

29839 S. Margarita Pkwy
Rancho Santa Margarita Ca 92688

ph. w- 949-586-8110 c- 949-683-5411
fax 949-586-2082

——————————————————————————–

From: “ronald dischler”
To: dr_taitz@yahoo.com

Ms. Taitz,

I have received your email and I will use it to further my investigation into the Criminal matter concerning Barack Hussein Obama. The only thing that I will be able to file on is crimes committed in the City of Beaumont Tx.. However, with your information, I will attempt to add to the criminal charges or bring it to the attention of someone who can go further. I am a very resourseful individual and I guarantee that I will fight to the end. I do not enter into this matter lightly or with blind abandon. I do this because I too took an oath as a Police Officer to defend the Constitution of not only the great state of Texas but also the great nation of the United States of America. [Redacted]

Again, thank you for the information and I will be back in touch with you very very soon. [Redacted] There is another Officer who works in C.I.D. (Criminal Investigation Division) who would be more than willing to join me in pursuing this investigation. I have as yet to tap this resource.

If you have any more questions, or you obtain any more information that you think would be beneficial to my case, please feel free to contact me anytime of the day or night.

Thank you,
Officer Ronald C. Dischler Sr.
Beaumont Police Dept.
255 College
Beaumont Tx., 77701
409-880-3865
409-466-2060-Cell

I’m very glad that you serve in our military. What you wrote shows the best of what it means to serve. Thanks for posting here.

I believe we have a right to be suspicious, a duty to speak out, a need for the public pressure led by JT, ACLU, etc., and a healthy basis to be skeptical of the backbones of the politicians from both parties. Righteous anger is needed and we see here, with trollish exceptions, that we have it in abundance.

Nevertheless, we are reading into a politician’s words. The President is walking a difficult line and no doubt trying to finesse it. I was at one point a Director in the NYC Human Resources Administration, with a staff of more than 300, located in about 15 different offices Citywide. The project we were working on was an effort to save NYC from $150 Million in penalties, so as you can imagine I had full authority. Do any of you have any idea how hard that was to ensure that everyone was on the same page, especially because firing wasn’t an option? President Obama, besides only 3 months running this huge government, is dealing with Secret Agencies, with secret funding and secret mandates. This is not easy stuff folks and if I was him I would be proceeding just as cautiously and believe me I’m far more radical than he ever was.

Get pissed, write what you have to, sign petitions, call the White House and Congress, support Professor Turley et. al. in their public forays, but please keep one thing clear, what would be happening had John McCain been elected? I well remember those voters who refused to vote for that “sellout”
Hubert Humphrey, than feeling shocked, shocked I tell you, when student were murdered at Kent State and the Ohio Governor was congratulated by Nixon. A little perspective please, mixed in of course with your righteous anger.

When I heard Prof. Turley speaking on Countdown that Obama was invoking “state secrets”, I realized that I knew very little about this person who was now our president. I began a search and it has led me down the proverbial rabbit hole. As I watched the Ring of Power videos and One Nation Under Siege on youtube, I began to see a bigger picture forming. I’ve spent hours searching and am committed to shining a light into dark places in order that the truth be revealed, not only for myself, but for our future generations. Even though it was tough looking at some of this, I am determined to do so with an open, objective mind. I have also come across an idea that I believe is a very viable solution. The links for these are at the bottom of this. Now you may be asking what this has to do with the subject at hand? I believe it has everything to do with it.
As you search for yourself and perhaps look into some of this, it will make more sense. More dots will be connected and a bigger picture forms. Now I know that “conspiracy theroy” stuff is taboo…but that’s exactly what they want us to think so we’ll keep looking away from that which points us to the truth.
If you are a parent or educator, you might wish to read The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America. If our government is openly and deliberately disregarding the laws of our nation right in front of us, the question remains…what are they doing behind the scene?

Speaking of Amway, I just got the ebook Merchants of Deception, which is about Amway.
So, if you’d like to go down the rabbit hole, you can go to you tube and search for Ring of Power and One Nation Uner Siege, as well as The Zeitgiest Movement and The Venus Project. Check out Phillip Berg and 911weknow.com and click the link Who is Obama.
One this site, check out the article on hdtv about halfway down the page. Not everything is as it seems to be.

“President Obama should have invoked his pardon power if he believed circumstances justified the crimes by Bush and Cheney and the CIA’s interrogators. A pardon or lesser clemency properly exposes the president to political accountability, as Bush discovered with Cheney’s chief of staff Scooter Libby and President Ford with former President Nixon. More significant, a pardon does not set a precedent making lawful what was unlawful. It acknowledges the criminality of the underlying activity, and acceptance of the pardon is an admission of guilt by the recipient. Pardons leave unsullied the doctrine of Ex parte Milligan (1866):”The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men at all times and in all circumstances. No doctrine involving more pernicious consequences was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government.”

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/17-4

Mike: “This is this.”

– The Deer Hunter

“If I appear bitter, I am. This is shortsighted, Machiavellian expedience at its worst.”

Imagine the liberal rage had this been a republican president that did this.

There have been AGs who resigned rather than engage in illegal activities. Holder should do so if he truly disagrees with Obama. I agree that if Obama overruled Holder that is another mistake, but I’m guessing they are on the same page and any talk about differences is spin. Otherwise, Holder would act on priciple and resign.

What happened to the independence of the Attorney General?

We heard a lot of that from Obama and Holder (BTW I voted Obama /Biden).

Holder wanted to release the memos unredacted. Maybe to prosecute?

So Obama overruled Holder?

If so that is another error.

The argument is logically sound, but not legally sound for the aforementioned Nuremberg defense (I was following orders) having already been discredited in Federal court. Due diligence does not excuse torture, rape or murder as any human with a conscience should know they are committing a prima facie illegal act under color of authority. But I am willing to accept the logical argument over the legal in this instance for one reason only – the pragmatic aspects of the intelligence community require that we employ a certain number of sociopaths. Why? Because every other intelligence agency in the world does. It takes a lizard to catch a lizard. They can be useful tools. But like any tool, they can harm when misused. That’s why I want the ones who misused them held accountable. Should this be a blanket immunity? Absolutely not. Any participant who strayed into murder and rape needs to be punished, be they CIA, military or civilian. A case by case review is merited where the most egregious defenders go on to face criminal trials. If you’ve followed the unfolding history here, I’ll think you’ll find the military has objected to this abuse of prisoners all along – sometimes more strongly than others. It is a well known fact that torture produces bad intel and that’s why these techniques are not part of the military’s standing practices on interrogation. And object or not, they followed their orders albeit under various degrees of protest. Given the limited options of legal protest available under the USCM, their participation should be reviewed on a case by case basis. This courtesy of a semi-blind eye to primary actors (as opposed to enablers – the ones I REALLY want hung from the neck), however, does not apply to the medical professionals who helped carry out said torture. They have a wholly seperate obligation to humanity and that is to “first, do no harm”. While imprisoning them for assisting in torture (absent murder or rape) and giving the torturers proper a walk is manifestly unjust, I don’t think removing their ability to practice medicine ever again is out of line for any of them.

BTW, I really like your work. Fjords rock!

The connection between Blackwater and the Republicans is extensive. The Brother that runs Blackwater is none other than Betsy DeVos’s own. And you ask who is Betsy DeVoss? She is married to Dick DeVos who owns AMWAY.

Oh yes and I have the knowledge teacher. I can buy my way into a Covert Operation of the CIA without identification because I have money and You can’t trace it to me.

I like that where else do you get paid to shoot people for fun and profit?

Now this group is left in place by the govt. Do we want our govt. leaving people who say “yes” to torture in place? If they said yes before, why should they say no now? We have a standing group of unnamed people who will torture if our govt. tells them to. Where does a standing group of immune tortures exactly fit in with democracy? That seems like a dangerous thing to me.

I thought Jonathan made many excellent points on RM last night. I hope we will have the video of him soon. He said the best way to have a non-politicized situation is to appoint a career, impartial prosecutor who will follow the facts wherever they lead.

Every time I see you appear on MSNBC I know I am going to feel dreadful when your comments are over–not because I don’t agree with you, but because I do. I am a sixty-five year old white woman who has the greatest respect for our new president–but some of the decisions coming out of his Justice Department have me chilled to the bone.

Raised a Goldwater Conservative–now a flaming liberal–I don’t know how a Constitutional scholar like Obama can countenance some of the latest Justice Department rulings. The President is an intelligent and subtle man, so I can only hope that there is a plan here not available to a mortal such as myself. But please keep speaking out, Jonathan–even if it feels as if you are crying in the wilderness. You have my greatest respect and admiration.

Obama is a War Criminal. He has been a War Criminal for several years in funding and waging Wars of Aggression. He should Not have been placed on the ballots. He should Not have been certified by the Congress. Obama should Not have been sworn in by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. These acts were unconstitutional, felonious and treasonous. Obama can be arrested at any time by the U.S. Government, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Spain, Germany, Britain, etc. for War Crimes and a multitude of other charges. Our political, civil and military leaders along with the mainstream media have perpetuated and built a “Big Lie” for years. It is on the scale that Hitler and the Nazis used to deceive the German people. Obama is one manifestation of that Lie.

The list of War Criminals includes all those in Congress who voted to invade Iraq, those who voted to fund the war and the continuing occupation and all the political, civil and military leaders of America responsible for the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have all conspired in War Crimes. Many of the people in Obama’s cabinet and in his administration are War Criminals. Very few in the Bush Administration and Congress are NOT War Criminals. They are murderous fascists!

By the way, I’m imagining a jury of their peers. A bunch of hooded spooks who shrivel in sunlght. End the CIA. Harry Truman said he’d never have started it if he’d known it would become the American Gestapo.

By the way, this idea of Obama’s that prosecuting war crimes is divisive and that we should instead look forward– ? There’s nothing divisive about uniting us in common defense of the Constitution. It’s the page we all need to be on. I saw a lot of tea baggers with signs about the Constitution, it’s not a right or left thing at all. To fail to defend our common ground — that’s the biggest fail of all. That’s where we lose America. Congratulations Osama, you win.

And by the way, how about reopening the 9/11 investigation? The 9/11 report was based in large part on info spoonfed the commission by the CIA from tortured prisoners. And we might finally learn why the third building fell.