“To me Jill displays all of the contemptible, annoying, and obsessive qualities of the Bush/Cheney/Far-Right/Fixed-News types and even the Larry Craigs of the day, however, aimed at
Barack Obama, before he was even elected in, the name of justice, the rule of law, and checks and balances – about which she has yet to discover a clue…”
____________________

Okay Patty C., please tell me at what hospital you work at so I can avoid that complete State in case I should be anywhere near you if I am in need of a medical emergency. I also want to write your State board of medical examiners to have them look into you medical competency and to protect the public’s health and safety.

Professor Turley has requested many times that you cease and desist (very politely) with ad hominem attacks on Jill, and yet you keep cyber-stalking her from thread-to-thread because she is getting more attention from the guys than you are. After the last time you were asked to “behave” you did not post for a while and others and I remarked for you to please come back. I will never make that request again.

If your attacks on Jill are just a joke, please inform me, because I do not want to misjudge you if I am missing something. Otherwise, you are a real piece of work. How in ‘tarnashion’ you ever became a surgeon makes me fear the state of medical college training nowadays. Is there an equivalent Regent University School of Law for medicine? As a former Army medic, I have doubts that you are the competent medical professional you claim, given your posts.

Please tell me that your attack on Jill is simply your way of expressing humor and wit. If it is not, then your Dad was most likely using that “hat rack” reference for your benefit, but you never took the hint or caught his drift.

KG is a riot. Noticed you’ve been busy–me too!

In the words of Ron White, “You can’t fix ‘Stupid’ “…

Or as my Dad, who graduated college at the age of 17 and became a surgeon, like myself, used to say to his other offspring, my brothers, growing up ” Use your head for something other than a hat rack, Friend”. Now, I know what he meant!

To me Jill displays all of the contemptible, annoying, and obsessive qualities of the Bush/Cheney/Far-Right/Fixed-News types and even the Larry Craigs of the day, however, aimed at
Barack Obama, before he was even elected in, the name of justice, the rule of law, and checks and balances – about which she has yet to discover a clue.

Work expands, if you know what I mean…

Personally, I don’t have the time to blog all day.
I’m too busy, especially lately.

I have even less patience after reading the same old crap for a full year now.

p.s. For a laugh, if you haven’t seen Kathy Griffin’s ‘Straight to Hell’ on Bravo’s bit ie Larry Craig, I highly recommend it.
It has been removed from Youtube, unfortunately.

I am NOT defending any of the practices you are talking about (and if torture is still going on, be it at Bagram, GITMO, or a CIA black site, it is a war crime and those responsible should be punished) I just don’t see how waiting (again, let us say for the sake of argument two weeks) has any effect whatsoever on those prisoners. If you disagree with this, let me know – but in light of it I see no reason to rush things with the possible detriment to both the country as a whole as well as a potentially lower chance of what we both agree to be the ideal outcome for no tangible benefit.

Please feel free to doubt me, just look at the court rulings for yourself. Here is one on Bagram (go to the ACLU for more information). A court ruling that you can read isn’t the same as any second hand news source. What I am saying to you is you advise patience while people are being tortured. Two weeks is a lot of pain and suffering if you’re in the middle of it.

The argument you guys are making is: Obama is not moving on anything because he is waiting for political cover to do so, or he has a secret plan etc. If that were true his administration would not have made more extreme arguments on spying or the denial of detainee rights than Bush did. He would have stopped the torture and denial of rights immediately. Yet he allows it to go on. He is even now dening evidence to Binyam Mohammed in his court case in the U.K. You can’t have it both ways. If Obama is working towards the good, then these rulings make no sense. If he does not plan to prosecute anyone, the fact that he maintains or goes beyond the positions that bush took make perfect sense. It means he is not working in opposition to bush in any of these rulings or in the matter of prosecutions, (nor is Holder). There’s a big connection between these positions and clear eyes will see it. Following is about the ACLU suit, check the website:
“The cases of those detainees — many of whom were taken by U.S. soldiers from their homes, schools and other locations that aren’t normally considered a “battlefield” — will pose the next legal challenges to the Obama administration’s policy of indefinite detention at Bagram without charge or trial, say lawyers following these cases.

“One question will be whether people are still being brought to Bagram from elsewhere as a way to avoid review, and how the U.S. is treating prisoners at Bagram,” said Jonathan Hafetz, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s National Security Project who has not participated in these cases, but is watching them closely. Hafetz said he expects to see more challenges to the Obama administration’s Bagram policy soon. “Right now, they’re not being given a fair process and they’re being held with less process than prisoners got at Guantanamo.”

In fact, in his order, Bates went out of his way to say that the process that Bagram prisoners are afforded to challenge their detention “falls well short of what the Supreme Court found inadequate at Guantanamo.”

Specifically, the judge found that the “process is plainly less sophisticated and more error-prone.” For example, unlike prisoners at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, where prisoners could have some representation, Bagram detainees must represent themselves.

“Obvious obstacles, including language and cultural differences, obstruct effective self-representation by petitioners such as these,” Bates wrote. “Detainees cannot even speak for themselves; they are only permitted to submit a written statement. But in submitting that statement, detainees do not know what evidence the United States relies upon to justify an “enemy combatant” designation — so they lack a meaningful opportunity to rebut that evidence.”

I did not know that there is still torture going on and I’m very disappointed if that is true (I have no reason to doubt you, I’m just dubious about any news source these days), and I wont deny that I’m disappointed with President Obama on the issues you raise. What I don’t see is how doing anything right now (as opposed to say, two weeks from now) makes any of that better. I am very much opposed to an action that, in my opinion, has no benefits and a very real downside. The way pressure is building, I believe that very soon the republicans will have to decide to support some sort of investigation or defend torture (which is becoming less defensible by the day) at which point the political price for proceeding drops significantly. As I said before, this is only one of the important issues right now and I don’t begrudge president Obama being pragmatic if the right thing gets done in the end.

“WASHINGTON – April 24 – A federal judge will review a challenge to the indefinite detention of Guantánamo detainee Mohammed Jawad on Monday, April 27 in Washington, D.C. Lawyers for Jawad, who has been in U.S. military custody since he was as young as 14, have charged that he is being held indefinitely based on a false “confession” obtained through torture. This is the first federal court hearing challenging his detention.

In February, the government filed a motion continuing Bush administration efforts to deny Jawad his right to challenge his detention in federal court until after the Guantánamo military commission case against him is complete, even though President Obama has ordered a halt to all military commission proceedings. On Wednesday, Judge Ellen S. Huvelle denied the Justice Department’s motion.”

Thank you ever so much. That means a lot to me.

“Not for nothing, but I think Mespo would agree with me that the Roman Empire was anything but tribal.”

************

History makes it so.

Such protestations often elicit evidence from a secretive, corrupt government.

“This type of maneuvering has been going on for the ten thousand years of human civilization and probably pre-dates that to the small tribal culture.”

Mike,

Not for nothing, but I think Mespo would agree with me that the Roman Empire was anything but tribal.

SIYOM,

Bob

While you advise holding on, which as a citizen who has not been put in jail or tortured, is easy for me, I must ask you how you can advise this course of action to those being abused right now? The ACLU and other human rights groups have filed suit to give those in Bagram some relief. This has been to no avail. Obama has affirmed in court that he will not allow those prisoners the right to challenge their detention in our courts. There are credible allegations of torture in Gitmo, not in the past, but right now. I urge you to read up on one case that JT posted on, that of Binyam Mohamed (check the Guardian because this is a big story in the UK, although it is ignored here). We have ghost detainees unaccounted for. How does allowing the torture and lack of rights to current detainees fit in with the plan to bring bush to justice? Why should they keep being abused? Is it really fair to ask them to keep being tortured and have their rights denied until the president or the AG finds the “right” time to look into the bushco crimes? As a citizen, I know that I, like everyone else am still being spied on by my govt. This spying is approved by Obama. How does that ruling by Obama fit in with the plan to bring bushco to justice? I could wait on being spied on. Sure I don’t like it. It’s a dangerous thing for the govt. to get away with. But it is a whole other magnitude of difference to be an atty. working on the case of a detainee while being spied on. It is a whole other magnitude of difference to be a helpless detainee with no rights, being tortured. I can’t believe you are willing to trade out things like that so Obama can get the political will to proceed. Paul Krugman pretty much destroys that idea anyway and I think it’s worth reading his column. As to the release of the documents, this is not a largess of Obama, this is a hard won legal victory that has taken years on the part of the ACLU. But my main problem is the failure to recognize bad things are happening to people right now. There is not only no account of the past abuse, there is no help for those currently being harmed. That people who are being harmed should be asked to wait until a politically good time comes along to stop their harm is to me, morally, wrong.

I don’t want President Obama to call for a special prosecutor – that’s not his job. Part of the reason I voted (and volunteered) for President Obama was for him to DE-politicize the Justice Department. The only thing I want to hear from the president is that it is up to the Attorney General to decide how to proceed. Furthermore, since AG Holder has an enormous amount of work ahead of him cleaning up Gonzo’s mess and as A Patriot pointed out, the information is coming out at an amazing rate right now (plus reasons such as politics that I have noted on other threads), I would much rather see no action from the AG for at least a week or two. Just hold on and enjoy the ride!

Jean,
Here’s the problem with quotes like this, they hang out there and if said enough become seen as facts. Is there and interview on tape where she said this? What was the exact context of the statement. Reportedly is a slippery slope to base an argument on. As in:

Reportedly George Bush took part in sado-masochistic and homosexual acts led by a Dominatrix in Nevada. She reported this as she was running for the Gubernatorial nomination in that State. As much as I dislike George Bush, I don’t think that is quite enough for me to say that he is into being dominated sado-masochistically to commit homosexual acts.
While I would defend his right to do so, I wouldn’t base criticism of him on a report from a minor gubernatorial candidate probably seeking publicity.

“Neither Obama nor many in Congress want an investigation of any kind. They are going to be impilicated in an independent investigation.”

Jill,
I don’t think you are giving credit to the steady flow of information being released in this past week. How is it getting out there and who is putting it out? If President Obama and AG holder really wanted to suppress investigations these things wouldn’t be dribbling out. I’m not interested in suppositions by Glenn G, or from places like TPM, they have as much knowledge as you and I do and are simply giving their take on the same facts we all have. JT, the ACLU, MoveOn and many others are not really commentators on these issues, they are advocates stating a case and so deserve wider latitude.

I’ll put my interpretation of the facts up against the commentators every time and most of those you quote are people I read daily and like very much. My interpretation is, once again, that this is being brilliantly stage managed and will result in substantive investigations and trials that will make Watergate and Iran-contra pale in comparison. The future will prove that to be either right or wrong.

Mike

The majority chairs every committee and has a majority of members on each and every committee.

The minority can’t even use House meeting rooms without permission.

It does not matter, for example, what Boehner is now told. He could not stop any vote on any bill even if he wanted to as minority leader.

There is no filibuster in the House.

And the same goes for Pelosi who was in the minority until 2006.

Yes. Once a preexisting cancerous disease corrupting a body—governmental or biological—is *completely* excised, then preventative medicine is the proper and most efficacious prescription.

“Worse than Gitmo:” ACLU Asks for Documents on Bagram Prison, Where the US Still Holds 600 Prisoners

The Obama administration argues that the prisoners at Bagram—some who have been there 6 years—do not have habeas corpus rights. That’s not looking backwards. It is current policy.

By Jeremy Scahill

As the Obama administration faces mounting pressure to appoint an independent special prosecutor to investigate torture and other crimes ordered by senior Bush administration officials and implemented by CIA operatives and contractors, the ACLU is opening up another front in the battle for transparency. But this one is not exclusively aimed at the Bush era. Today, the ACLU filed a Freedom of Information Act request seeking to make public records on the US-run prison at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. The group is seeking documents from the Departments of Defense, Justice and State and the CIA.

As the ACLU states, “the U.S. government is detaining more than 600 individuals at Bagram, including not only Afghan citizens captured in Afghanistan but also an unknown number of foreign nationals captured thousands of miles from Afghanistan and brought to Bagram. Some of these prisoners have been detained for as long as six years without access to counsel, and only recently have been permitted any contact with their families. At least two Bagram prisoners have died while in U.S. custody, and Army investigators concluded that the deaths were homicides.”

The Obama administration has refused to grant habeas corpus rights to prisoners at Bagram, but a federal judge recently ruled that three prisoners can challenge their detention in U.S. courts. The Obama administration, in continuing a Bush-era policy, is appealing the ruling. According to the ACLU, “The prisoners, who were captured outside of Afghanistan and are not Afghan citizens, have been held there for more than six years without charge or access to counsel:”

“The U.S. government’s detention of hundreds of prisoners at Bagram has been shrouded in complete secrecy. Bagram houses far more prisoners than Guantánamo, in reportedly worse conditions and with an even less meaningful process for challenging their detention, yet very little information about the Bagram facility or the prisoners held there has been made public,” said Melissa Goodman, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project. “Without transparency, we can’t be sure that we’re doing the right thing – or even holding the right people – at Bagram.”

This is a very important case to monitor, particularly because it is an area where Obama’s administration has allied itself squarely with that of the Bush administration. This is not “looking backwards” at all, it is looking at the present and it aint Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld running this sick, unconstitutional show.

I have listened to this argument and do not think it is correct. Remember this is Cheney we’re dealing with. If he thought a prosecution or investigation would shut down the information, he would be screaming for them from the rooftops. His aim is to stop any investigation and he has allies at the top of our govt. who are doing everything they can to prevent this. They are doing this by stalling. Fortunately, there are other people in this govt. who are brave enough to oppose him and they are getting the information out. These people are acting out of their conscience and their courage. They will not stop sending out the information.

Neither Obama nor many in Congress want an investigation of any kind. They are going to be impilicated in an independent investigation. They will stall forever if they can, so in my opinion, there is no need to worry that there won’t be enough time for information to come out. This is a very corrupt govt. we live under and that corruption still goes all the way to the top.

Obama needs to quit protecting war criminals. He needs to do two things right away:
1. direct his AG to appoint an independent council
2. direct his AG to block the destruction of evidence

*People in the govt. who have information, keep putting it out. We need you to be courageous and take a stand. What is/was happening is wrong. It needs to stop. The information you provide will be the key to stopping it.

If Obama will not act AG Holder should act by this afternoon. If he does not act, he should be impeached. If we had a functional govt. Congress would have told Holder, if you don’t appt. a special prosecutor we will commence your impeachment hearing. That would send such a strong message that our govt. does not condone these actions and will not tolerate them. It will tell the executive branch it must follow the law.
.

Thank you. It ain’t been easy and it ain’t been hard. Interestingly, I learned a great deal about depression and I will say that I am amazed.

I did not know that you could be depressed and not sleep. Well eventually you do. But it is not peaceful until you allow yourself to be peaceful.

Precisely!

Anon: On a personal note, I was saddened to read about your loss as a perused the other threads this morning. I cannot imagine the heartache you suffered in this tragedy, but I respect you for the courage to persevere.

It is my firm convictions that in America as well as I am sure other places. We strive to be assured that what we do is legal, warranted and moral. To join all people of all parties especially the number of ranking females. Shows a defined disdain for women in general. They were used as mere whores of the administration. Political Prostitutes in you will.

They knew Cheney et al that you are hard pressed to beat up on women unless you want the wrath of all. And now Cheney’s daughter is defending her Dad as she should. He was politically and morally opposed to her life style.

But then again, Money can never buy you Class. What it can do is buy you friends until your money runs out.

If a G-d exists. They will have a reckoning. If reincarnation exists karma will take its toll.