Sounds good.

If Nixon had not been pardoned, today’s mess would not be as deep and disturbing.

Good Afternoon AnonY.

I trust that you are okay today.

Good to have you back. Take care.
************************************************

I went to a support group this afternoon. It did not mean that I did not read someones snide remarks to me. Oh well.

I am doing ok, I am watching Nixon/Frost right now. It is pretty good.

Thanks for asking.

I have also written about the need to punish torture at http://www.7mesh.com/blog/?p=328. Thanks for an excellent column.

mesh

I trust that you are okay today.

Good to have you back. Take care.

Anonymously Yours 1, May 8, 2009 at 9:03 pm
CCD and FF LEO,

I am in a funk, tomorrow will be 6 months since my son died. Yada Yada.

I am a fan of Van, CCD do you remember the first group Morrison was with. Them. Yes, it was called Them. I guess it is kind of like naming your band, The Band.
__________________________________________________________

I know when I’m being played.

I also know when I am being stalked and I don’t care for that, either.

My BS meter went off a couple of weeks ago on this one…
**********************************************************

Patty C,

If you are being played look in the mirror at the fool who is playing with you. You are mean spirited, nasty and crass. If you are in fact a Medical Doctor, I feel for your patients. You must be the most lonely and isolated person that your mind has ever dealt with.

I grew up with parents in the medical profession. I have never heard someone with the alleged education such as yours lose so much.

Yes, my Only Son COMMITTED SUICIDE 6 MONTHS AGO.

I am pleased that I do not know you. But thank for leaving the others alone you disagree with.

With age, everyday is a fresh new day filled with wonderment…but mostly with, what the heck did I do with my socks, where are my glasses (look on your forehead, honey), and darn it I did not hear my 3rd-this-month’s new tea kettle whistlin’, I done boiled it dry again today, and now it it lays half melted on the stove…and the day has just begun…

Everyday it’s getting’ closer, goin’ faster than a rollercoaster…

AY,
As I’ve said previously your loss was great, my sympathy can’t approach what you must feel and healing (never confused with forgetting) takes time. Sunday Morning Coming Down was to me Kris K.s best song because it captures the feeling of despair we all experience at one point or another in our lives. To listen to it is to be brought back to ones own sense of the losses of life. your choice of it helps me approximate what you must be feeling, though it is such that I can never fully comprehend the effect of your loss upon you.

Mespo,
You Machiavelli quote was beyond appropriate and sums up what some of us have been saying on this topic. That it referenced Imperial Rome only underlined the aptness for what we face today. Part of the mistake that some well intentioned partisans make in their justifiable passion for justice, is that these overwhelming good v. evil issues of today, are merely a continuation of humanity’s age old battle to rise above our baser, lizard brain nature, into a world where justice and equity are predominant. A apt analogy to me are both the French and Russian Revolutions.
Nowhere was there a more deserving of punishment nobility than in these venues and yet the speed of the victory brought with it excesses that equaled those being overthrown.
It takes time and wisdom to do this right and the torture angle was only a part of the evils and excess of Bush/Cheney.
There is so much in our system to fix and that is a process not aided by impatience. That Buddha and now myself are the only ones to comment on your gem, illustrates the difficulty of putting the present into historical context.

Rut,
You are typical of the cowardice that runs through workings
of the Bush/Cheney Crime Family. You would be at least honest if you clearly stated: I agree with torture, we need it and it is lawful. Instead, knowing the silliness of your argument, yet with the tenacity of a partisan football fan, you try to work around the issue and think that you are finessing it. Instead you reveal that like that entire past administration of traitors you are far too afraid to express the vileness and immorality of what you really think.

CCD and FF LEO,

I am in a funk, tomorrow will be 6 months since my son died. Yada Yada.

I am a fan of Van, CCD do you remember the first group Morrison was with. Them. Yes, it was called Them. I guess it is kind of like naming your band, The Band.

—

I know when I’m being played.

I also know when I am being stalked and I don’t care for that, either.

My BS meter went off a couple of weeks ago on this one…

“You mean 18th, not 6th, month anniversary, right?”
_____________

Have you never had children?

I didn’t realize your son had died until I read the rest of this thread today. I am truly sorry. That must be so incredibly painful.

Me too. Me too. You don’t know how sorry I am and how sorry of a parent I felt and all the other guilt. Now I am ready, got the teeth sharpened. Skills never left, I just did not care. I came back home and Isolated for about the last 17 months. Now Teeth Sharpened, check.
–
You mean 18th, not 6th, month anniversary, right?

A’s are always better than B’s where I come from, but like everything else they involve a choice in their procurement.

Thanks for the “Sunday Morning Sidewalk.” One of the more interesting classes I took was the “Origin and Theory of Country and Western Music in the USA” I did learn a lot. The Cash Family is ok but greatly enriched by the Opry and Carter family connections.

Some Irony, the Grand Old Opry was owned by the Rhymans, who happen to be Jewish (I went out with the granddaughter) How many of them serious rednecks would have ever gone to the Opry if they’d known these facts.

I do not think that I would have ever graduated from college (even as hard as I tried to stay in) if they had had the internet. What I used to spend hours looking for in the library is readily available within seconds if not minutes, right here, right now, Instantaneous Gratification. What more could a slacker want. I wanted to use slackert but oh well.

I am what you might have describe as a Type A personality in whatever I undertook. Whether it be school or work.

Thank you. You’re one well reason dude or dudette. In the likes of Mespo72cubed, FFLEO, Buddha, Mike S. and A, rafflaw, Jill, Patty C and a whole host of others not to be unmentioned.

I read this this morning and thought of you. I understand that you want something done and are afraid of it not being done. However, after living the “Fast Life” for so many years. And being as aggressive as Feiger in all that I did. I am and like a lot of others had developed this philosophy.

“The chief danger in life is that you may take too many precautions.” – Alfred Adler

I think that if we were all struck with “Balance” we would not even have anymore Wars.

But then again don’t trust anybody under 30 or was that over 30. My how we change when reach reach the age that we are afraid of the most.

On to your torture issues. You elected not to address the law, and I assume that you will not do so since it is patently contrary to your views. But here’s the point. I can say that I don’t believe that waterboarding is torture, but that is like saying that I don’t believe that light bends. In the former case, the law provides the definition. In the latter case, physics provides the law of refraction. Therefore, my belief is immaterial. Neither of the choices you presented as potentially correct answers is correct for the simple reason that your argument is predicated on a false premise, the conclusion that a technique used in the training of our troops cannot be classified as “torture.” The premise is not only false, but silly. The entire purpose of the training is to assist soldiers in developing methods for coping with torture in the event of capture. The techniques demonstrated during the course of the training are common forms of “torture” learned from our experiences in World War II and the Korean War, techniques that are prohibited by international and domestic law. As mespo earlier pointed out to you, soldiers undergoing the training understand that they will be experiencing actual torture techniques, but only briefly and under the watchful eyes of people whom they trust. In other words, we use actual torture in a friendly, controlled environment to help soldiers survive actual torture in situations in which they are not in control. Likewise, in the course of training fire fighters, buildings are ignited to teach techniques for retrieving victims, entering and exiting safely and controlling the blaze. Presumably you wouldn’t argue that training fires are not “real” fires. Or perhaps you would, in which event I’m staying up way late for no purpose.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/05/023518.php

rut roh = gonif < John

For anyone who has been paying attention, one of the most striking political phenomena of the last six years has been the degree to which the Left, and over time the Democratic Party, has been swept away by a current of hate. The liberals’ animus has been directed largely, but by no means exclusively, at President Bush and his administration. Vast numbers of words have been consumed in trying to diagnose the reasons for this outburst of often-hysterical vitriol, but that topic is far beyond the scope of this post.

Many thought that the liberals’ venom would abate with the end of the Bush administration, especially since liberal Democrats now control all the levers of power in Washington. But that has not been the case. Instead, the Democrats’ base has howled for “investigations” of alleged Bush-era malfeasance. The party’s office-holders needed little encouragement; as Paul has noted, those who refer to President Obama being “pressured” by the left wing of his party fail to appreciate that Obama is the left wing of his party.

So we had the “torture” story–intended by the Democrats to be the torture scandal. The Democrats tried to vilify President Bush and his administration on the ground that they approved the waterboarding, and other relatively rough treatment–the dreaded caterpillar!–of a handful to top-level terrorists. It appears that the Democrats originally intended this agitation to lead to Congressional investigations and, perhaps, criminal prosecutions.

In addition to lacking any merit, the “torture” theme was always stupid from a political perspective, for a number of reasons: 1) the Bush administration’s aggressive efforts to root out terrorism were popular, not unpopular; 2) at the time, the Democrats’ leaders in Congress were fully on board with being tough on terrorists; 3) the Obama administration, notwithstanding its grandstanding on matters like Guantanamo Bay, has actually kept the bulk of the Bush administration’s anti-terror policies in place, and no doubt would be hard on terrorists, just like the Bush administration, if it was necessary to prevent an attack; and 4) by promising a kinder, gentler attitude toward terrorists, the Obama administration virtually guaranteed that it would be blamed, and bitterly so, in the event of a successful terrorist attack.

Which brings us to where we are now. The Democrats’ attack on the Bush administration, with respect to “torture,” has fizzled out. There will be no criminal investigation or prosecution; Nancy Pelosi is on the defensive due to a CIA leak of what everyone already knew, that she approved of waterboarding when she was on the House Intelligence Committee; polls show that most Americans approve of waterboarding, etc., and the Democrats are trying to forget the whole thing.

The public is left with two conclusions: 1) the Democrats’ main indictment of the Bush administration is that it was mean to terrorists, and 2) if terrorists pull off an attack between now and 2012, the kinder and gentler Obama administration will be to blame.

This is a terrible position for the Democrats to be in, and the wound is entirely self-inflicted. We’ve been waiting for a while for the Democrats to pay a price for their orgy of hatred, and it looks like they finally have.

“the 3 terrorists we waterboarded were TOLD they would not be harmed and they also were advised their was a doctor present.”

*****************

I’ ve got some water front property in Florida you might be interested in plus a pretty little bridge in Brooklyn that is in need of a new owner.

the 3 terrorists we waterboarded were TOLD they would not be harmed and they also were advised their was a doctor present.

I forgot about that one. Good show. Here’s the video with the rendition of the unforgettable “Man in Black”:

Kris Kristofferson, Sunday Morning Coming Down Lyrics
Artist: Kristofferson Kris

Well I woke up Sunday morning,
With no way to hold my head that didn’t hurt.
And the beer I had for breakfast wasn’t bad,
So I had one more for dessert.
Then I fumbled through my closet for my clothes,
And found my cleanest dirty shirt.
An’ I shaved my face and combed my hair,
An’ stumbled down the stairs to meet the day.

I’d smoked my brain the night before,
On cigarettes and songs I’d been pickin’.
But I lit my first and watched a small kid,
Cussin’ at a can that he was kicking.
Then I crossed the empty street,
‘n caught the Sunday smell of someone fryin’ chicken.
And it took me back to somethin’,
That I’d lost somehow, somewhere along the way.

On the Sunday morning sidewalk,
Wishing, Lord, that I was stoned.
‘Cos there’s something in a Sunday,
Makes a body feel alone.
And there’s nothin’ short of dyin’,
Half as lonesome as the sound,
On the sleepin’ city sidewalks:
Sunday mornin’ comin’ down.

In the park I saw a daddy,
With a laughin’ little girl who he was swingin’.
And I stopped beside a Sunday school,
And listened to the song they were singin’.
Then I headed back for home,
And somewhere far away a lonely bell was ringin’.
And it echoed through the canyons,
Like the disappearing dreams of yesterday.

On the Sunday morning sidewalk,
Wishing, Lord, that I was stoned.
‘Cos there’s something in a Sunday,
Makes a body feel alone.
And there’s nothin’ short of dyin’,
Half as lonesome as the sound,
On the sleepin’ city sidewalks:
Sunday mornin’ comin’ down.

Do do do do do do do do,
Do do do do do do do,
Do do do do do do do do,
Do do do do do do do.

To fade

Did the CIA all of a sudden become the source of truth and light?

During that time Porter Goss and Dusty Foggo (what a handle) were running that bad movie:

http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/02/foggy-mountain-boyz-out-to-watergate.html

Which 2 sir?

No word or combination thereof can ease your pain but I find this comforting sometimes:

The time you won your town the race
We chaired you through the market-place;
Man and boy stood cheering by,
And home we brought you shoulder-high.

Today, the road all runners come,
Shoulder-high we bring you home,
And set you at your threshold down,
Townsman of a stiller town.

Smart lad, to slip betimes away
From fields where glory does not stay,
And early though the laurel grows
It withers quicker than the rose.

Eyes the shady night has shut
Cannot see the record cut,
And silence sounds no worse than cheers
After earth has stopped the ears:

Now you will not swell the rout
Of lads that wore their honours out,
Runners whom renown outran
And the name died before the man.

So set, before its echoes fade,
The fleet foot on the sill of shade,
And hold to the low lintel up
The still-defended challenge-cup.

And round that early-laurelled head
Will flock to gaze the strengthless dead,
And find unwithered on its curls
The garland briefer than a girl’s.

–A.E. Houseman

I wish you peace.

“2) The training 40,000 US troops have undergone WAS NOT TORTURE therefor the harsh interrogation used on 3 terrorists IS NOT TORTURE.

You pick the answer mespo7272. I await your clear answer.”

**********

Any person with a wit in his head can answer your question. You are certainly no Oracle at Delphi. The answer lies in the notion of consent. I may consent to have you punch me in the nose (we call that prize fighting); there is no battery since the conduct is both expected and hence arrangements can be made to defend myself. The notion of torture is devoid of any notion of consent. The victim is entirely at the mercy of the torturer and consents to none of it. This is why we don’t prosecute linebackers for, so called, “punishing” hits on running backs.

The most important distinction of course is that the US soldiers know that no harm will come to them ultimately and the purpose of the consented-to exercise is to prepare them for the barbarism that is real torture. The victim in torture has no idea if he will ever see the sunrise, and its purpose, far from beneficent, is to extract some information or to exact some punishment.

I am a little embarrassed having to explain this to a “civilized man,” but maybe my assumption is erroneous. The answer is #2.

I am in a funk, tomorrow will be 6 months since my son died. Yada Yada.

I am a fan of Van, CCD do you remember the first group Morrison was with. Them. Yes, it was called Them. I guess it is kind of like naming your band, The Band.

Post about what is important to the majority of us here. Thanks AnonY.

I went to the number 5 accounting school in the US The University of Texas-Austin. I finished in 3 years. I worked for 6 months and then went back. I was in the Honors program. I obtained another degree in Marketing took a number of years to get that next degree because time I took my time and picked up enough credit to get 8 degrees.

One of the first classes I took, We had a Professor that said: “Students, I do not care how much education you obtain, when you fail to communicate with the people you are talking to, all your education is lost.”

I then went to law school at Michigan, I played the game for my first year. I played the next 2 years. Why, because I could. When I told my family I wanted to go to Med School in Grenada, they said I had had enough education. I think it had something to do with starting in 76 and finishing up in 90. Oh well, maybe the next time I’ll get it right and be as smart as some people.

I guess you are correct in I should leave it alone. But I have a bone right now. As you will see I did not name any names.

“This undistinguished student of rhetoric rates the professor’s work an “A.” How’s that for irony.”

Sir, your modesty is an example. Undistinguished indeed.

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/04/mukaseys-paradox/

“…In his twisting of legal principles, the attorney general has succeeded in creating a perfect paradox. Under Mukasey’s Paradox, lawyers cannot commit crimes when they act under the orders of a president — and a president cannot commit a crime when he acts under advice of lawyers…”

‘We Four’ are of the mindset that this country is strong enough to withstand the previous administration’s two damaging terms and determined have resolved not only to keep our heads, but to find our way – not ‘back’, but forward to an even better place., if possible.

One need not take a stick of dynamite to a door in order to gain entrance, when simply locating the key and turning it in the keyhole will accomplish the primaary objective while keeping the basic structure intact.

Confident in our history, we can afford to allow things to unfold, naturally, for a bit longer, while continuing to make our expectations and reasoning known by any and all intelligent means at our disposal.

The idea that Obama was a slime-ball politician before the election, remains so today, and will, no doubt, continue to be well into the future and as a matter of course must never be trusted is not and never was part of our processes

One can either choose to help Obama or not.

And if people choose not to help, then they can handle the consequences of their choice by either feeling guilty or by clinging to their newly adopted roles of unfairly blaming Obama for their choice not to help and then by watching things turn out differently than they wanted.

Some call that ‘passion’ – I call it something else,
entirely.

Your just stating the same perspective BushCo used to form it’s policy.

“The Survival Evasion Resistance Escape, or SERE, course is designed primarily for pilots and Special Forces soldiers who are at high risk of capture and interrogation.” By Peter Finn and Joby Warrick Washington Post.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2009/04/17/bush-lawyers-used-us-military-training-to-justify-cia-interrogation-techniques.htm

Nothing that we did to three terrorists exceeded what the United States Government did to our own 40,000 troops in 1″

Wrong rut roh, intention is the difference. Training people to survive torture is not the same as torturing people to extract information. Your premise and questions are spurious.

Mike and others here will surely point you in a more lawful direction.