I thought pardons carried a blanket imunity throughout the court system; I’m glad to hear they’re not. Thanks.

——
You missed my point, again and you are mistaken, again.

A presidential pardon granted will not apply toward any other federal offenses charged in the future, even if arising out of the original offense for which the pardon was granted.

Actually, I was NOT attempting to make your point, but since you brought it up, the power to issue an amnesty and the effect of an amnesty are the same as those for a pardon.

There are a few different powers to pardon AND a few different kinds of pardons.

Elizabeth Ferrari: ” Wow. You people really do get trolls here… spoof ”
—————-

I wasn’t sure so I added smileys so as not to offend you if you (Elizabeth Ferrari) weren’t pulling a switch-up. I apologize for casting aspersions.

Regarding your comments and the initial reaction of some that they were trollish, I think that can be ascribed to the fact that political discourse in this country has been cheapened to the point where it has become a battle of memes and mythology. Due to that words take on far more meaning than their original definition. I decry that fact, try to go beyond it, but 40 years of propaganda by paid for by the moneyed elite have wrought their mischief.

Therefore your “politicizing” can be taken in the context of the shrill Republican screaming that every issue brought by Democrats was partisan, of course while they in fact were operating from a solely partisan viewpoint. I surmise that some read your post too quickly and were overtaken by this context, even though that was clearly not your intent.

In a sense the recent spate of Trolling here can be viewed as a good sign for this site, since it means that JT has had some telling effect in highlighting this issue and that brings on the Trolls, both the misinformed and the paid.

We, I think I can speak for a number of folks on here, get a “fair” number of trolls here. It is a chance to affirm our belief in my convictions. I welcome you here. Please share what it is you have to offer, on topic off topic whatever ails you.

There are a number of folks that words are much more eloquent than mine. But a sincere welcome to this site, not to be confused with a cite.

But the admin should be able to verify the different ISPs. Is this what they do, spoof other posters? What a waste of time. Breitbart? Good grief.

Russia warns World in Soviet-style show of might

May 9 08:20 AM US/Eastern

Russia on Saturday sternly warned the world as it put on a Soviet-style show of military might in Red Square including nuclear capable missiles.
****************************************************

Please Misses Troll or Mistress Troll,

I am on a Roll. Please look at December 2006.

Tuesday, December 26, 2006. some news about georgia/south-caucasus. Turkey, Georgia to Share Giant Caspian Field Gas 5

What ya think that is all about?

Russia-Georgia Conflict in South Ossetia: Context
and Implications for U.S. Interests

Updated September 2008.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/110841.pdf

Do you think that having Oil there shows what interest Cheney had in Georgia?

Oh, by the way Troll, Obama did not get elected until November 2008 and sworn in January 2009. Did you know that.

Obama Bans the Commonfolk from Normandyby John Romano

A lot of the difference, the change if you will, between Obama and Bush has much to do with the word humility.
*************************************************

did you ever see W when he was at his impromptu Press Conferences and he was fumbling worse than a Detroit Lion. He either was still cranked up from the night before or his other meds were working overtime.

But I understand a Troll has its marching Orders and must do what a Troll must do. If any original thought is required you’d probably not be more humble than Georges fumbles.

You are smart enough to know that if it involves a Federal Pardon it is only for Federal Issues. Surly the absurdity is not lost on its author.

I recalled all I remembered from my lil ole brain cell. Because of your insistence to correct and criticize rather than educate and inform, I feel compelled to respond in kind.

“One limitation is that a pardon cannot be issued for a crime that has not yet been committed. Pardons also don’t affect civil cases, or state or local cases. Pardons are meant to dismiss sentences stemming from affronts to the United States through the breaking of laws.”

I have attached the link: http://people.howstuffworks.com/presidential-pardon4.htm

If I had gone to med school, I assure you, my bed side manners would never be called into question, nor my ethics. Can you say the same?

No, only as to the designated offense being pardoned. It would not apply, for instance, to other possible charges brought later on.

And it could not apply to any cases in individual States. Only sitting governors may exercise their own State pardon powers.

I recommend EF use JT’s ‘Search’feature to locate any article under the keyword ‘Pelosi’ he’s written, even before he created the #1 Law Professor AND Legsl Theory Blawg’.

A lot of the difference, the change if you will, between Obama and Bush has much to do with the word humility.

George Bush is and was a humble man. Obama thinks the world counts on him and him alone to lead us. Bush went to church and prayed often. Obama puts out press releases about his supposed piety. The left sold a great bill of goods to the American people claiming that Bush, et al. were arrogant while insisting that Obama was a “man of the people.”

The 65th Anniversary of D-Day is fast approaching. Barack Obama will attend the events on June 6th as George Bush did in 2004 for the sixtieth memorial service. Here is the rub, as of now Obama’s State Department has asked (read demanded) the French government not allow tour guide services to operate that day. It is a big day for Normandy tourism. Yet, the king will not allow those not connected with government to enjoy the day. Obama is very important you know. This is an unprecedented request. I hope the French come to their senses and deny it.

Compare that with 2004. Security was tight as President Bush and other world leaders were in attendance, but the event was still open to all. A friend relayed the story of waiting in line to use a port-a-potty (a French port-a-potty no doubt, yuck, believe me.) She looks to her left and who he is in the next line waiting patiently? President Bush. Sure he had Secret Service nearby, but he waited like everyone else.

Contrast that with Team Obama not even allowing regular people near Colleville-Sur-Mer that day. A shame indeed. Especially as the last of our WW II vets are expiring.

As the Bamsters unemployment rate pushes 10% (double the Bush average) and his 3.5 trillion dollar budget breaks the USA (the press of course focuses on his 17 billion in “savings.” Way to go 4th Estate.), Obama has more to worry about then denying people the right to attend a memorial service on June 6th.

It’s as if Obama has to let it be known that he is more important than honoring the events and the 9,387 mostly young Americans who died invading Normandy 65 years ago. Will Obama apologize for American actions during WW II at the event?

I think the following quote from Obama himself sums it all up: “a light will shine down from somewhere…. You will experience an epiphany. And you will say to yourself, ‘I have to vote for Barack.’” Watch for yourself:
–

The guy can’t even bring himself to say “shine down from heaven.” Do you really expect him to line up to use the can with the commoners at a Normandy celebration? Americans may start to miss the guy with the humility.

Universal Healthcare, unchecked unions, government run banks, government run autos, cap and trade, turning the 20 million undocumented Democrats into voters: That isn’t America and it surely isn’t what those young boys died at Normandy for.

We elected a fairy tale. We can start the road back to reality in 2010 with the mid-term elections.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jromano/2009/05/09/barack-bans-the-commonfolk-from-normandy/

May 9 08:20 AM US/Eastern

Russia on Saturday sternly warned the world as it put on a Soviet-style show of military might in Red Square including nuclear capable missiles.

The display to mark the 64th anniversary of the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany in World War II came amid renewed tensions with the United States & Georgia after NATO’s decision to hold war games in the Caucasus country infuriated Moscow.

“We are sure that any aggression against our citizens will be given a worthy reply,” President Dmitry Medvedev said in a speech in Red Square side-by-side with powerful Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.

http://www.breitbart.com/print.php?id=CNG.2bd8acd3958f3504b0e198ea61d1c3d0.a1&show_article=1

JUST FOUR MONTHS AND OBAMA HAS THE RUSSIANS READY TO LEVEL A GUN AT US!

Your op-ed to Pelosi was well done. I’m glad you clarified your comment with “Jonathan’s entire post could be subtitled, “And you Democrats, too”. This forum/blog is one of the few I have visited that is (troll and spam aside) evenhanded in its condemnation of wrongdoing.

As for me, I no longer even care for the (rational and prudent) arguments to drag it out to the point that a consensus against torture is present among the electorate before an investigation is started. I know that’s probably not wise after seeing the ease with which someone like the traitor North can get off by using a few tears in a court of law but it’s where time and a good measure of free-floating disgust with both sides of the aisle in Washington has brought me.

I am perfectly happy to see Washington, metaphorically, burned to the ground by a thorough investigation of everyone involved. I want the debate on the nature of our soul (as a nation) currently and for the future to be loud, contentious, (ugly as hell if needs be) and defining.

This slow drift away from substantial political debate and into ‘spin’ and ‘parsing’ on every issue is just withering my soul. I don’t even care what the actual answer is anymore, I just want to know what kind of country I live in and will spend the rest of my life in.

Uh, yes, Senator Sam ‘Because English is my first language’ Ervin is one of my hero’s. What I wouldn’t give for just one day of real debate at the highest level of government.

Please visit again, you will be welcome here I’m sure.

But, I have been following this story since 2002 and that is my first interest. Thanks.

And that’s fair enough. As I said up thread, I don’t disagree with him on any of those points. As an impeachment activist in Pelosi’s district, I don’t know too many people who are harder on Pelosi than I am or continue to be. If anything, I suspect most Democratic voters who have followed this issue are far more angry with their own party than with the Bush Administration.

The question I raised here is, does politicizing this issue in this way further the project of accountability? My position is that it does not. It simply leads us further into the weeds.

Of course, she had no objection to the use of EITs for almost 5 years- until she was Speaker in 2007 and the antiwar left raised it as an issue. Suddenly she’s against it, and/or “knew nothing”. And obviously willing to lie to the whole country to create a more favorable reality.

Apparently Obama and Pelosi forgot something: the CIA kills people… it’s in their job description. Did they really think these killers were going to meekly take one for the team… when the team captain is a lying, incompetent, arrogant nebbish with no real-world experience and who told them they need to kiss his ring? – please

Pelosi is a no-talent hack who’s made a lot of enemies. Going to be hard to BS her way out of this one- her approval rating was like 9% before this story even broke.

“I don’t understand why you are jumping on the politicizing bandwagon and in particular, by claiming that Democrats want to prosecute the Bush Administration and yet allow complicit Democrats to skip.”

Please explain your perspective for me. Where and when do you conclude that Professor Turley politicizes jumping on the band wagon and that democats are exzempt from investigation and possible prosecution or pardons?

http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/10/wash-post-democrats-including-pelosi-told-of-waterboarding-in-2002/#more-805

It was even the same Democrats and the same Republicans that were fingered, the very same crew. Go back and look at the way the story unfolded if you’re interested.

This new diversion is following the same template.

Politicizing the issue in that way got us exactly nowhere. It was theater. A lot of us were “outraged” and that outrage might have burned calories but it didn’t really shed any light on the wiretapping program, didn’t forward any kind of accountability, and didn’t stop the program.

As soon as we pull political parties into this problem, we take focus and energy away from the actual problem. From the bakers and goat herds and religious pilgrims and grandfathers that were sold to Rumsfeld and tortured at Guantanamo, for example. As soon as we make that move, we’re going off topic and away from the process that will bring tortures to justice and toward yet another episode of political theater that gets us nowhere but that gives politicians something to talk about to the media while they continue to avoid their responsibility to the nation, imo.

If pointing that out to Jonathan makes me a “troll”, well, there it is.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_elizabet_070915_this_is_our_table_an.htm

That being said, the more we politicize this, the harder it will be to get the justice we want. It’s not that I don’t agree with Jonathan about the role of Congressional Democrats. It’s more that, that isn’t the way forward. Kicking over political anthills will not produce the accountability that is needed here.

I cannot tell if you have a genuine concern about only one party being castigated or not. On this Blawg, I think that most of us want anyone involved to be prosecuted.

Now if you are a Troll, I am sorry I wasted my breath.

This discussion is not a Democratic plot. This discussion was engendered by the ICRC report that found the Bush Administration had a torture program. That politicians try to occlude that by pointing fingers at their opposition is not surprising; that you do is disappointing.

There are a number of critiques that can be made about Congressional Democratic leaders and their actions. I myself will always think of those members as belonging to the Torturing 110th Congress. But there is no useful critique whose conclusion is an exhortation to outrage when what we most need is focus, thoughtfulness and direction.

It may make for good television but it isn’t conducive to informed civic engagement.

You will be pleased to know that a Pardon will not even save a member of congress from Impeachment proceedings.

I agree that it will not protect our war criminals from foreign prosecution or domestic lawsuits. Here’s is my reasoning on using the pardon.

As to international prosecutions. Every country undertaking war crimes prosecutions against our people have stated that they would prefer the US to take up the cases. They have said they will drop their case if the US investigates and prosecutes its own people. I admire the nations who are willing to stand up to the world’s biggest bully, but I’m certain they would rather not do so. There is a lot at stake for them in proceeding. I have faith they will proceed if we do not, but I do not underestimate the cost of such courage.

Secondly, a pardon with the condition of resigning from any govt. position and a full confession does two important things: 1. it gets rid of some very bad actors in the govt. and 2. it will be the best chance we have of getting a real understanding of just how bad everything that went on was/is.

The threat of civil lawsuits may be quite useful. There are places in the world that won’t extradite our criminals and perhaps those are great places for these people to retire.

I see no good way to do this. I am seeking a way of acting that has the least chance of causing these very powerful, well-connected and evil people from doing more harm to our nation. Standing up to these people could end in disaster. They’ve already shown they will do anything to anyone, so even this action could provoke severe retaliation. But not standing up to them will end in a complete dismantling of our govt.

It would be great to hear other people’s ideas as to how to proceed.

Again, a federal pardon will NOT protect these people from other prosecutions and lawsuits – foreign or domestic.
*****************************************************

I beg to differ with you on the issue of a Domestic Pardons. I agree with you on the international pardons, a Presidential pardon will have no effect nor will it affect international civil litigation. But it is an absolute defense to any Criminal Prosecution. However a civil-domestic lawsuit is another story.

But then again, you can sue anybody for anything. It goes on everyday.

JT,
In a comment dripping with salience, this to me is the most salient of all. It is the continuation of the old Cold War bi-partisan foreign policy “shtick” that has gotten the US into so much trouble in the last 50 or so years. Ms. Pelosi, was probably so honored by her insider status and by those “serious” people who were briefing her, that she swallowed any qualms she might have had and totally abdicated her clear constitutional responsibility. This to me is why the Bush/Cheney Gang got away with treasonous/illegal actions for so long, our constitutionally mandated “overseers” were awash in unjustified wishful thinking accepting the credibility of an un-credible administration. It becomes tedious to continually point out that the King is naked, when the “serious” people are viewing his attire as fashionable finery.

PattyC stated:
“Like it or not, that’s one of the problems and likely one reason why George Bush did not grant a ‘blanket pardon’. He would have had to ask permission because none of the alleged potential defendants ever applied for a pardon. It could be inferred as his entire administration’s ‘blanket confession’, as well.”

Two questions, can you pardon someone in advance of a conviction and wouldn’t asking for a pardon be admitting guilt? Although I suppose you could be asking because you are worried that even though innocent you would be painted with the same brush as others.

You need to actually pay attention to what’s been said on this forum. Few here would object to dislodging Pelosi, etal. over their knowledge and passivity when it comes to torture as long as you agree that all Republicans in on the deal, including Bush and Cheney, are subjected to the same investigations and punishments. Agreed?

If so, instead of being an offensive troll, you would find yourself in harmonious concert with most of us. If not, you’re a troll and a pest simply out to propagate the Limbaugh party’s feeble agenda which consists solely of braying like the asses you are.

Certainly, any defense they might, otherwise, have under a liablity contract will not proceed toward providing their defense and/or indemnification for admittedly ‘illegal’ acts. Period.

In order to retain any personal protections, they would be ill-advised to essentially admit to ever having committed war crimes.

Like it or not, that’s one of the problems and likely one reason why George Bush did not grant a ‘blanket pardon’. He would have had to ask permission because none of the alleged potential defendants ever applied for a pardon. It could be inferred as his entire administration’s ‘blanket confession’, as well.

It’s easy for someone who has no legal training to say what these alleged potential defendants should do, because you are not in their position .

It’s a smidge more complex than some are willing to realize, apparently.

As Obama recently stated with respect to the many issues facing him coming in – ‘if it was easy, it would have already been done by now’ or words to that effect.

The 3rd leg of the government (m)bilking stool/trifecta:

Like Sausage, Citizens do not want to observe how it is made…

It comes down to nip it in the bud or it will nip you in the arse:

http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/04/vision-nip-it-in-twirl.html

how about some chicken sheeit republican posers too?

Because I do feel it is incredibly dangerous to have people in postitions of power who are completely lawless and have no compunctions about lying to the people here’s what I believe sould happen.

Each and every person involved in war crimes, from top to bottom should be given a pardon provided they do two things: 1. resign from the govt. and very importantly, 2. write a full account of everything they know and did in connection with war crimes. Should they fail to do either of these things, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

In the meantime Holder should immediately appoint an independent special prosecutor to investigate and charge anyone involved in war crimes. This must take place as a parallel step for the pardon in exchange for resignation/truth telling to have any teeth.

I further hope that despite any and all threats (blackmail and other types), people who care about this country will continue to leak everything they can on the corruption at the very core of our govt.

Finally, I hope citizens will stop accepting all excuses and rationals given by their leaders for failure to act on clear evidence of crimes. This cannot be finessed out of existence. Other countries are going to ask for our war criminals’ extradition. It’s probable that our current leadership will refuse this request and protect wrongdoers instead. We have to acknowledge the dangerous state of living in a society where the top people in our govt. participated in war crimes, are currently participating in financial crimes, are likely even now, participating in war crimes and use lies and propaganda to keep people cowed into submission.

Dick Cheney will once again tell his story on TV this Sunday. I’d like to see him arrested on the spot and in front of the viewers. I would also like to have the arresting officers read him his rights, and tell him he is welcome to a full pardon provided he admit guilt and reveal everything he took part in. The fact that he is running around speaking everywhere is proof of a propaganda campaign against the people of the US. He should have been arrested and offered the pardon deal a long time ago. This same holds true for any and all Democrats involved in the war and financial crimes our entire society is paying for at this time and will continue to pay for many years to come.

thanks for the link, if true that was very disturbing. They should have been whistleing
the Milice:

We shall smite the Jews and the Marxists,
We shall avenge our brothers killed by them,
So that the National Socialist ideal
Should one day be proud and victorious

Or the Horst Wessel Song.

Murtha resigns

Rangle resigns

Dodd resigns

Frank resigns

Pelosi resigns

Wasserman-Schultz resigns

Nadler resigns

Waters resigns

Hoyer resigns

Conrad resigns

and another 40 crooked Democrats in the House resign

and another 10 crooked Democrats in the Senate resign.

So I will support the investigations as soon as the above resign.

I fear that you are stuck in a rut; rho!

Anybody that votes for the party that mortgages our children’s future – the Democratic party – to buy votes to day is foolish.