In Ramallah, West Bank, Palestinian police say that a family hanged a 15-year-old boy because they believed that he might be a collaborator with Israel. The police doubt that he was a collaborator due to his young age.
Police report that the boy was hanged by his own father, uncle, and cousin. One account says that the boy was tortured before being hanged.
For the full story, click here.
This is just plain sick IMO. Was it Golda Mier that said that there will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they love death or something along those lines..?
That story is outrageous! I’m glad you posted it. It’s amazing how deep is the religious fanatasism of these Muslims. If anyone studies history they become amazed at the distortion that is Islam.
The religion is a complete fairy-tale historically speaking. The Muslims have been so brainwashed they actually think what they’re fighting for has historical meaning.
When are these Muslims going to wake up and realize their entire faith is built upon a fallacy.
Hey, Muslims, you have no connection to Abraham! Ishmael had no Arab blood! You have no connection to the Land! Mohammed’s “night-journey” fantasy trip doesn’t count!
Palestinian police say that a family hanged a 15-year-old boy because they believed that he might be a collaborator with Israel.
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That makes me sleep better at night. Now where in England do we go to report this to the thought police?
Darwin.
That story is outrageous! I’m glad you posted it. It’s amazing how deep is the religious fanatasism of these CHRISTIANS. If anyone studies history they become amazed at the distortion that is CHRISTIANITY.
The religion is a complete fairy-tale historically speaking. The CHRISTIANS have been so brainwashed they actually think what they’re fighting for has historical meaning.
When are these CHRISTIANS going to wake up and realize their entire faith is built upon a fallacy.
Hey, CHRISTIANS, you have no connection to Abraham! The Old Testament is the Jew’s book! Jesus had no European blood! You have no connection to the Land! Jesus’ “I’m not a zombie! I swear!” fantasy trip doesn’t count!
_________
That story is outrageous! I’m glad you posted it. It’s amazing how deep is the religious fanatasism of these SCEINTOLOGISTS. If anyone studies history they become amazed at the distortion that is SCIENTOLOGY.
The religion is a complete fairy-tale historically speaking. The SCIENTOLOGISTS have been so brainwashed they actually think what they’re fighting for has historical meaning.
When are these SCIENTOLOGISTS going to wake up and realize their entire faith is built upon a fallacy.
Hey, SCIENTOLOGISTS, you have no connection to Xenu! Aliens have no Earther blood! You have no connection to the Land! Xenu’s “Nuking the Bad Aliens in a Volcano” fantasy trip doesn’t count!
_________
That story is outrageous! I’m glad you posted it. It’s amazing how deep is the religious fanatasism of these WALL ST. TOTAL CAPITALISTS. If anyone studies history they become amazed at the distortion that is CAPITALISM.
The religion-like economics concept is a complete fairy-tale historically speaking. The CAPITALISTS have been so brainwashed they actually think what they’re fighting for has historical meaning.
When are these CAPITALISTS going to wake up and realize their entire faith is built upon a fallacy.
Hey, CAPITALISTS, you have no connection to real value! There is no real economy except the manufacturing economy! You have no connection to the wealth other than as thieves skimming the vig! Hank Paulson’s “I’m not stealing from you taxpayers for my friends! I swear!” fantasy trip doesn’t count!
_________
See how that works . . .
Also, learn how to spell “fanaticism”. It’s most unbecoming when a fanatic misspells fanaticism.
The only thing outrageous about this story is a 15 year old boy lost his life for a suspicion and a belief – neither of which have basis in fact.
I tend to think it is but one of the many rotten fruits on the tree of Islam.
And is a pitty, the people pay as they do for this religion. I should think at some point the tithing would be too great.
Nicely done Buddha, in both posts.
Jill:
It wasnt Christianity or Scientology or Capitalism that killed that boy, it was hatred fueled by Islamic beliefs or just hatred without any reason at all.
IS,
You missed the point. Fanatics don’t just come from Muslim backgrounds. It doesn’t matter the flavor, it was fanaticism that killed the boy. Even if his parents had been Christians there’d be no reason for what they did. Indeed, it was the same Christian zealotry in that original post accused Islam of as if it was their sole province that drew my ire. By any ethical standard, there is no reason for what the parents did other than the ignorance and fear that turned them into fanatical followers of (Insert Your Belief of Choice Here) in the first place. And even that’s not a reason. At best, it’s a causal connection and an excuse.
Buddha is Laughing:
I understood the original point, but I think it is too simple to just label these people fanatics. There is much more than that going on, Islam in the mainstream does not appear to have any rational proponents, very little good scholary works and no serious internal critics or very few. Whereas Christianity and Capitalism have many critics and scholars on both sides-good and bad.
Hey Buddha
Get a clue. Not that that would be possible for someone who uses simple rhetoric to change the topic. I wasn’t talking about the fairy-tale that is Scientology! I wasn’t defending Capitalism or Christianity, both which are guilty of sins like all ideologies.
However there is absolutely NO one who is intellectually honest nor anyone who engages in an objectively critical scholarly analysis who could ever come to the conclusion that Islam has any credibility.
Lets not try an make an unequal comparison with fringe ideologies like scientology and something like Islam which is taken seriously by many. Scientology is not a threat to mankind. However, the lie that is Islam that has been perpetrated on mankind by Islamic FANATICISM is a dire threat to all mankind.
Untill people wake-up and relegate Islam to the fringe where it belongs or the practicing Muslims wake-up to realize everything they’re fighting for is built on a complete fallacy then the whole world is doomed.
Leave capitalism out of it because if you don’t like it then go move to one of these socialist heavan’s like Cuba or Venezuela or better yet maybe one of those facsist (sic?) regimes in the Middle East or maybe since your a Buddha you might like it in China, see how much free speech blogging you can engage in over there.
Keep your criticism to the topic at hand, Islamic FANATICISM! And the total fairy tale that is Islam which is a threat to all of mankind.
Thank You. I don’t need your inferior response, especially if you try to play 3-card-monty with the topic.
Patrick….
Golda Meir said “we can forgive the arabs for killing our children. we can’t forgive them for making us kill their children” this was in response to armed kids firing at Israeli soldiers and being used as human shields.
Hey, Sicilian!
Good luck on telling me what to do, troll. And let’s be clear, zealot, the only person playing with disingenuous language and not being upfront about it is YOU. You don’t like I exposed your bias and poor logic? Too bad. Sucks to be you.
If Islam is the religion of peace and doesn’t prevent this madness, I shudder to think what is the religion of hate.
sicilian1:
“However there is absolutely NO one who is intellectually honest nor anyone who engages in an objectively critical scholarly analysis who could ever come to the conclusion that Islam has any credibility.”
***************
I have to agree with Sicilian here that Islam suffers from the same credulity problems that afflicts all religions–an irrational basis at their core. Sicilian is right–though rude–he just doesn’t carry the notion to its logical end.
You’re the one with the poor logic.
If you had any clue you’d know we ALL have a connection to Abraham through the bloodlines of Noah’s sons. DUH!
It’s the Muslims who try to claim exculsivity to the bloodlines that is so ridiculous. Their whole faith is based on the fact that Abraham is their’s and that Ishmael was Abraham’s hier.
Now whether you’re an atheist or some kind of “enlightened” Buddhist, the argument isn’t that. The issue that must be addressed is that Muslims are killing people based on their belief that they own “God” and they point to their belief of their link to Abraham through Ishmael which is a complete and utter FALLACY. There is absolutely NO historical record linking Abraham or Ishmael to the Arabian land. DUH!!!
Christians are NOT trying to high-jack Judaism. They freely admit their Jewish roots. Do NOT try and drudge up history. I’m living in the present, Buddha! Read any legitimate Christian writer today and they will admit the Jewish roots of Christianity.
The Muslims claim to the Land is also a ridiculous fallacy. There is no native Arab claim to the Land. Arabs didn’t make their first incursions into the Land until 600 some odd years after the Romans named the Land Palestine. There was no such thing as Islam when the Land of Palestine was named. Jews and Christians lived in the Land side-by-side until the Muslims claimed it was theirs through Mohammed’s hallucinations.
The point is that the Muslim terrorism is all based on a lie and a re-write of history. Is it worth people dying because these Muslims refuse to accept reality?
Blah blah blah troll.
You are pissed off about Christianity being used to blow up your propaganda trash and your perception of my disrespect even though it’s apparent you aren’t really sure what I’m disrespecting. You aren’t raving about fanaticism which was what I was addressing. You are raving about your religion of choice.
In short, you responded to comments about fanatical behavior with fanatical behavior.
You do know that the more you foam at the mouth, the more you look like the zealot you are, don’t you? Especially when you come back off topic and defensive about your God.
I’m kinda doubting it.
But feel free to keep illustrating that Islam doesn’t own the corner on zealotry. I like helpful trolls. Especially when they help expose their true nature.
Buddha is Laughing:
Do you have a program where you save all of your rebuttals and just fill in the topic?
IS,
Hilarious
Hey Buddha,
Your like all the rest of the knee-jerk reactionaries out there who change the topic to make yourself look like you have the moral high ground. But it’s only done to mask your ignorance. You can’t have a legitimate discussion where you stay on topic. Your M.O. is to distract to try and drag the conversation to your ignorant level.
I could care the least about anyone’s faith. They all have there hypocracies and hypocritical proponents. Which one is “right”? We’ll NEVER truly know until we die.
Once again, my point is that when you kill people in the name of your “God” who you claim you have exclusive rights to and then point back to a revised history to prove your point you lose any and all credibility.
Maybe God does want people to kill in His name, though I highly doubt it, but when you make all these claims to legitimize your actions and they’re ALL founded on a fallacy you once again lose all credibility.
Please, stick to my SPECIFIC topic in your rebutalls. I am NOT defending ANY faith. I am only pointing out the ridiculous claims the Muslims make to legitimize all their actions.
If anyone wants to read a thourough analysis on the Land go to my site.
http://sicilian1.wordpress.com/ or just type in sicilian1 and read in defense of Israel.
Sicilian,
Could I just point out that Muslim and Arab are two distinctly different things? One being a religion and one being a race.
Also, anyone that says “If you had any clue you’d know we ALL have a connection to Abraham through the bloodlines of Noah’s sons,” doesn’t get to complain about anyone’s beliefs being based on fairy-tales.
IS,
Do you have anything of substance to say? No?
Didn’t think so.
Sicilian,
You weren’t advocating for a specific religion, huh? Sure you weren’t. Tell that to someone who doesn’t read English and/or have a deep understanding of propaganda and persuasive language. Are you sure you really want my undivided attention? Come back when you can at least, as Gyges pointed out, demonstrate some grasp of basic facts, definitions and history. Like I said, sucks to be you, but again the topic was fanaticism leading to this boy’s tragic murder and you’ve responded with fanaticism about how wrong their brand of fanaticism is and your rationale for your brand of fanaticism. There’s an old story about forests and trees you should read. Because right now my only question is when the blind lead themselves, is that a circle jerk? Sure seems like it.
Buddha,
Your first post was magnificent but unfortunately the sublime irony of it was missed by some.
Mike S & Jill,
Thank you. One lives to be of service. I guess I am paying the price for my subtlety now. lol
Mespo writes: if Islam is the religion of peace and doesn’t prevent this madness, I shudder to think what is the religion of hate
me: all religions have their crazies. you think I’m affected or embarrassed by ultra orthodox Jews? I gave that up decades ago when they stared throwing poopy diapers on people who walked through the mea shearim on saturdays. I don’t expect Catholics to be affected by mistakes the church made with regard to bad priests or protestants to be affected by the southern baptist convention. I expect us all to do better, to be more thoughtful and reasonable regardless of which brand of religious vodka we prefer.
yeah. I know. pie in the sky.
its summer and i spent the day on the water yesterday. today is pie day. fresh blackberry pie. goes with good manners and ice cream.
“When are these Muslims going to wake up and realize their entire faith is built upon a fallacy.”
Sicilian 1,
Unfortunately this same statement can be made about all faiths.You don’t think that this is also true of Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism? I do and I practice my religion but am honest enough to see the flaws in its logic. The problem isn’t religion per se, it is one of fanaticism and zealotry. Wasn’t a Doctor killed just last week by someone espousing a Christian religious viewpoint?
“If you had any clue you’d know we ALL have a connection to Abraham through the bloodlines of Noah’s sons. DUH!”
If you believe the Noah story then you must be a fanatic. I’m Jewish and you are talking here about a story in the Jewish Torah. Unfortunately, you don’t understand that it, like the rest of Genesis are metaphors and were understood to be metaphors by the people who first wrote them and studied them for lessons in faith.
“Christians are NOT trying to high-jack Judaism. They freely admit their Jewish roots.”
Christians, like Muslims have indeed tried to hijack Judaism. You took our Torah and called it the “Old Testament” which you no doubt know means that the Jewish Covenant with God was broken and now the Christians have it.
Christians have spent the better part of 1,700 years persecuting us and killing us because we refuse to give up our faith and acknowledge yours. The Christian Bibles contain our Torah, albeit with certain strategic and purposed mistranslations to make the Christian case stronger than it is. The Muslims have done the same which is why the Mosque of Omar in Jerusalem is set on top of the ruins of the Jewish Temple, with the non-Koranic myth that Mohamed ascended to heaven from that site as justification.
“The Muslims claim to the Land is also a ridiculous fallacy. There is no native Arab claim to the Land. Arabs didn’t make their first incursions into the Land until 600 some odd years after the Romans named the Land Palestine. There was no such thing as Islam when the Land of Palestine was named. Jews and Christians lived in the Land side-by-side until the Muslims claimed it was theirs through Mohammed’s hallucinations.”
While there is a modicum of truth to this, as a Jew I ask you this favor, please don’t defend our right to Israel in the context of your other views. It weakens the case and we don’t appreciate it. We can do our own defending, as can others who are not as islamophobic.
“Once again, my point is that when you kill people in the name of your “God” who you claim you have exclusive rights to and then point back to a revised history to prove your point you lose any and all credibility.”
Excuse me. did you ever hear of the Inquisition? Do you know the history of the Crusades in Europe and the killing of Jews on the Crusader’s way to the Holy Land. I hold no brief for Muslims, but in some senses they treated Jews better than did the Christians, although they too had their let’s kill the Jews moments.
In the end I believe that it is not the religion per se, but the fanaticism and fundamentalism pushed by some religious and political leaders to bolster their own power. Yes there are many Muslims who have been willing to sacrifice their children on a false altar of God. However, this is not just endemic to Islam, it is endemic to all faiths where extreme views take hold. That certainly is true of Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism. I’m writing this of course as a Jew and as a firm supporter of Israel. Viewpoints like yours will not bring peace to the land of my people.
sicilian writes: ou’re the one with the poor logic.
If you had any clue you’d know we ALL have a connection to Abraham through the bloodlines of Noah’s sons. DUH!
It’s the Muslims who try to claim exculsivity to the bloodlines that is so ridiculous. Their whole faith is based on the fact that Abraham is their’s and that Ishmael was Abraham’s hier.
Now whether you’re an atheist or some kind of “enlightened” Buddhist, the argument isn’t that. The issue that must be addressed is that Muslims are killing people based on their belief that they own “God” and they point to their belief of their link to Abraham through Ishmael which is a complete and utter FALLACY. There is absolutely NO historical record linking Abraham or Ishmael to the Arabian land. DUH!!!
Christians are NOT trying to high-jack Judaism. They freely admit their Jewish roots. Do NOT try and drudge up history. I’m living in the present, Buddha! Read any legitimate Christian writer today and they will admit the Jewish roots of Christianity.
me: you know,I used to do this. I used to debate religious history and fact with people like this. I spent hours everyday online writing endless paragraphs about the real role of the church in anti-semitism and stuff about all religion’s need to be right, to be best and to have a dominant role in shaping political destiny while pretending to offer people faith in an unseen and unknowable god.
I gave up. I don’t do this anymore. YOu and people like you don’t listen or learn or care to do anything but rant.
go forth and rant. it’s your time and money.
Buddha writes: You weren’t advocating for a specific religion, huh? Sure you weren’t. Tell that to someone who doesn’t read English and/or have a deep understanding of propaganda and persuasive language. Are you sure you really want my undivided attention? Come back when you can at least, as Gyges pointed out, demonstrate some grasp of basic facts, definitions and history. Like I said, sucks to be you, but again the topic was fanaticism leading to this boy’s tragic murder and you’ve responded with fanaticism about how wrong their brand of fanaticism is and your rationale for your brand of fanaticism. There’s an old story about forests and trees you should read. Because right now my only question is when the blind lead themselves, is that a circle jerk? Sure seems like it.
goes double for me and thanks for the image Buddha. blind circle jerks?
First Off, 99% of the cultures in the world have a Noah story, from the ancient Greeks to the Chinese. Must have come from somewhere. Were these stoeies allegory? I don’t doubt they were. Most of you keep missing the point.
Once again, I AM NOT trying to place one faith above the other. All this stuff about Abraham and every other figure in the Bible may be a made up fairy-tale. Everything about every religion may be a fairy-tale.
We’ll all find out the truth when we die.
My point once again is that it’s the Muslims who are killing people because of their insistance on EXCLUSIVITY to “God”. The whole message of Mohammed’s BEGINS with the fact that Jews and Christians distorted the Bible. Did they? Ok all you “enlightened, intelligencia” out there, we’ll say they did. Then let them live there distortion in peace. Why does the Muslim belief inwhat many consider their distortion give them the right to kill people in the name of “God”.
It’s the Muslims who are opening themselves up to criticism when they stake their rights to exclusivity on a complete revision of history. It’s not about who’s right. It’s about stop pushing your revised history on the world.
Ok, the Jews and Christians distorted the Bible. Ok, they removed Mohammed’s name from the Bible. Ok, Mohammed was the last prophet of God, Ok, Ok, enough already. The world submits to the Muslim position. They are right. Now can we all just live in peace and stop worrying about Muslim terrorists terrorising everyone just cause they truly don’t buy their revised claims.
Now genius, talk to any anthropologist and they’ll tell you that Arab is NOT a race. Sorry to inform you but Arabs are considered part of the Semite race too. DUH!!! The Muslim religion is tied to the Arab people because Islam is a claim to the EXCULSIVITY of “God”. Anyone else practicing Islam that is NOT of Arab decent is a convert or descended from converts. DUH!! Islam/Muslims originated in the Arabian peninsula. Arab is NOT a race. Once again, the Arab people are considered a part of the Semetic race. DUH!!! Hate to break the hearts of all you Arabs out there.
Buddha,
I got more rant for less words. My troll baiting is more efficient than yours.
However, that first post of yours wins for sheer artistry.
Everyone else,
Sorry, occasionally I can’t help myself. I’m done with troll baiting for the next month or so. It’s like cigars, an occasional vice.
You just can NOT intelligently address my issue. You lack the knowledge on the issue but the simple fact that you claim Arab to be a race proved that on it’s face. I just had to highlight it.
so go crawl back in YOUR troll hole.
Buddha is Laughing:
You are pissed off about Atheism & Socialism being used to blow up your propaganda trash and your perception of my disrespect even though it’s apparent you aren’t really sure what I’m disrespecting. You aren’t raving about fanaticism which was what I was addressing. You are raving about your Atheism and Socialism.
In short, you responded to comments about fanatical behavior with fanatical behavior.
You do know that the more you foam at the mouth, the more you look like the zealot you are, don’t you? Especially when you come back off topic and defensive about your lack of belief in God and capitalism.
I’m kinda doubting it.
But feel free to keep illustrating that Atheists and socialists are zealots. I like helpful trolls. Especially when they help expose their true nature.
What does God, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism have to do with this?
It seems odd to me to debate how religion damages people when the issue might be something completely different. Perhaps it is just easier (intellectual laziness) to do that, like the guy in the story who has lost his keys in a dark field but looks for them under a street lamp because the light is better there.
Do we know for a fact that the murderers committed their heinous acts out of religious obligation? Could they not very well be secular, or Christian for that matter? Did nationalism play any role? How about feelings of personal failure or shame?
Endlessly denouncing religion really does not make for very enlightening conversation, in my opinion. We might consider getting the courage to be more willing to seek the ‘truth’ in darker and more difficult places rather than convenient spots like under the “street light” of our biases and prejudices and implacable ideas.
If “truth” was handily located in easy to find places, many would have discovered it!
Hadi Jawad:
if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is probably a duck.
You go look for your keys in the dark field, I will look for mine where I find them.
GWLawSchoolMom: “…i spent the day on the water yesterday. today is pie day. fresh blackberry pie….”
Yesterday evening I baked a from-scratch blackberry pie.
Comfort food while you’re arguing with people that just don’t get it, or instead of arguing etc. is the way to go. There would be more peace if people would just relax and eat more pie.
Hadi,
I think that’s related that’s the point many were trying to make.
Fundamentalism is the enemy, not any one religion, or for that matter religion in general. Like most things, religion is neither all good or all bad, but a mix of the two.
“if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is probably a duck.You go look for your keys in the dark field, I will look for mine where I find them”.
HJ: Above words, out of the language of 12 Step recovery programs, describe alcoholics who stubbornly refuse to admit their affliction, point to another trait many alcoholics have: repeating the same behaviour over and over but expecting different results. Like looking for things in places where they doesn’t exist. This is also a good working definition of insanity, according to some folks.
Interesting as these discussions of religion in general and Islam in particular have been, I really don’t think religion is at the heart of this sad, sad story. These Palestinians have been driven mad by their situation with Israel. They feel as though they have no freedom, no sense of self-determination – as though they’re being occupied by a hateful, tyrannical regime. So anyone in their midst caught, or even suspected, of collaboration with the occupiers, receives the culmination of all their wrath and frustration.
I see this family’s reaction as insanity having little to nothing to do with religion.
You make two incorrect assumptions there, sicilian old sport. It is a well documented fact in this blog that I am neither an atheist nor a socialist. However I will stipulate I don’t think socialism is the boogey man you apparently consider it.
You certainly are an angry person when made to look foolish. I would think you’d be used to it by now. You have apparently chosen to attempt to do what exactly? Anger me by attacking principles you think I value? First it would make sense to identify the correct values to attack, wouldn’t it? It’s like watching a fish on the beach flop about in search of the surf. Then again the root of comedy is often the suffering of others. So I’m going to have a giggle and a beer. I’m paying for the beer, but the giggle is at your expense. Salut!
Sorry, that was meant for IS, although both are good for a giggle.
DUH!! Buddha
Hey Genius,
Read the headings, it wasn’t me who accussed you of being an Atheist or a socialist. I don’t play that game when debating. I start out with a topic and try to keep the debate on topic. I don’t degrade myself into name calling or labeling.
The topic was Muslims killing in the name of a “God” they claim exclusivity to. That’s it!
The parameters dictate to address that point and whatever faith you are or even if you’re an alien an intellectual, acedemic analysis will leave not a shadow of a doubt that Islam is founded on a fallacy.
I don’t want to hear about what about them or this or that. The claim I made can not be assailed by anyone who is intellectually honest.
If you criticism of me involves finger-pointing or name-calling then we really have no debate.
Once again, go back and read the post. It was NOT me who used your words to paint you as an atheist or a socialist. Read the posts the record is clear.
Your incorrect accusations further exposde your ignorance which you have demonstrated all day by being unable to comment without going off topic.
Non related post in reply to Lottakatz.
Didn’t you read JT’s post on cooking today? My take away was, cooking is deadly and I was affirmed in my hatred of it!
Buddha is Laughing:
Thank you. One lives to be of service. I guess I am paying the price for your Friday night entertainment then.
The Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or the India Pale Ale or something Flying Dog are good choices for the beer. Prost!
Oh good golly Niss Molly….those crazy Palestinians….they just keep getting their britches in a bundle over their land, but the problem is they HAD NO LAND in 1947 either. In fact, Palestinians land is JORDAN, but when they tried to lay claim to just a portion of it………the KING of JORDAN threw them out!
Islam, the one FALSE Faith of the world. Totally Revolting how a crazy man in 700 AD now impacts a billion people alive today.
Quick question here. Can someone explain to me why Muslims in Ameirca vote 85% for the party of homosexuality & abortion, just two things that Muhammed chastised them that must never be tolerated?
I think the answer is “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” and at what point do Muslims decide Conservatives trying to reign in terroristic Muslims have lost the war and these Muslims turn on the party of abortion & homosexuality?
Great blogs Sarai!
People just don’t want to accept reality or are just too intellectually lazy to research the truth.
It’s easier for them to just buy the sound bites.
Check me out.
http://siscilian1.wordpress.com
Read “A Defense of Israel”
OT:
Jill, I did not see the posting on cooking. I’ll look for it.
Lotta writes: Yesterday evening I baked a from-scratch blackberry pie.
Comfort food while you’re arguing with people that just don’t get it, or instead of arguing etc. is the way to go. There would be more peace if people would just relax and eat more pie.
pie is good. its even better with a scoop of really great vanilla ice cream. its hard to be unhappy when you are eating pie.
Queen writes: These Palestinians have been driven mad by their situation with Israel. They feel as though they have no freedom, no sense of self-determination – as though they’re being occupied by a hateful, tyrannical regime. So anyone in their midst caught, or even suspected, of collaboration with the occupiers, receives the culmination of all their wrath and frustration.
me: Israelis are driven mad also. They feel that every time they board a bus or go to a pizza joint or to a cafe that they could be blown up by a suicide bomber. we here have no idea what that feels like. We don’t think twice when we see a group of young men standing outside starbucks or borders books or on a street corner. they do. they have to. the solution to peace is simple the way I see it. if the arabs want peace all they have to do are two things: accept Israel’s right to exist and then renounce violence. it all ends there.
the arabs get a state of their own, which has been offered more than once, and israel gets the only thing it has ever wanted: peace from he arab neighbors.
if you allow yourself to get caught up in the language set of occupiers and apartheid and all that you will never really see the people on both sides who deserve self-determination.
btw, ever been there?
GWLAWSchoolMOM & Queen:
Oh good golly Niss Molly….those crazy Palestinians….they just keep getting their britches in a bundle over their land, but the problem is they HAD NO LAND in 1947 either.
In fact, Palestinians land is JORDAN, but when they tried to lay claim to just a portion of it………the KING of JORDAN threw them out!
Then when the Palestinians caused trouble in Egypt, Egypt threw them out , then Kuwait threw them out, then Saudi Arabia.
You see, the Palestinians are doomed to be the cannon fodder for the Arab world’s war in Israel. The Palestinians have had a number of chances given to them by Israel and ALWAYS the Arabs used money & bribes to convince them to turn it all down.
The Palestinians HAVE a home it’s called Jordan and the Brits gave it to the Arab world and it amounted to 75% of the so-called Promised Land. And this was back in 1923, some 25 years before the UN Partition Plan created Israel and a seperate Arab domain that wasn’t even called Palestine at this point.
There would be peace if the Arabs were content to just let the Jews live on there little tiny piece of coastline.
The problem is that the world has bought hook-line-and-sinker this entire Arab/Muslim fallacy about the Palestinians being a native/soveriegn/indigenous Arab people in the Land.
Most people born in the last 50 years actually think the self dubbed Palestinian Arabs actually have a legitimate beef about anything.
An objective look at the historical records prove that every claim out of the self-dubbed Palestinian/Arab/Muslims mouth is just a big fat fantasy.
I see you know your history Sarai but unfortunately most people are ignorant to the historical record. They make themselves feel good by spouting this “Kumbaya, can’t we all get along” garbage.The problem is that the Arab world does NOT want to get along with Israel.
No peace will ever come until the Arabs accept the truth of their revised past.
GWLawSchoolMom 1, June 12, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Buddha writes: Because right now my only question is when the blind lead themselves, is that a circle jerk? Sure seems like it.
GW MOM writes: goes double for me and thanks for the image Buddha. blind circle jerks?
******************************
would someone care to interpret this for me? I have pondered better half of the day and cannot decipher the same.
In any occupied country, the occupier makes effective use collaborators drawn from the occupied population to frustrate resistance. It is not difficult for the occupation to recruit collaborators, they are in position to make the lives of people who refuse to collaborate very miserable and to grant benefits to those who do. Have cancer, want to go to hospital in Israel, well sorry you can’t go unless you agree to spy on Hamas, wont agree then go home and die.
The only way the occupied people can counter collaboration is to deal very firmly with those that are caught. If this means killing the occasional scapegoat then that is an acceptable cost. As far as deterring potential collaborators is concerned it makes no difference if the 15 year old was in fact innocent. In this the killing of the boy is no different from the normal operation of the US justice system where it is more important that someone be convicted than that the person convicted be the one who performed the action of the crime.
I don’t know why everyone here is picking on Scicilian1.
He is certainly not a troll, he is on topic, argue cogently, and replies on point within the context of the discussion, and even points out the not-on-point retorts of his detractors here.
(A troll doesn’t interact, just obfuscates)
Y’all may not like what he is saying, but that is no reason to cast aspersions on his character or motive for being here.
Additionally, I tend agree with most of what he is saying on the sheer facts (promised land, claim to abraham, lack of moderates in islam, incipient intolerance, etc).
Personally, I think all extremism is gonna make automatons out of people, and I think all organized religions are extremist by inception; its just that the older ones have had a chance to grow up out of their adolescence, and use their forebrain to moderate the behavior that is fevered out by religious dogma.
In sum, don’t abuse the word troll. Don’t apply it to someone who is obviously not one, make it lose its power and applicability.
Buddah.
You forgot Mormons and Zionists.
Sicilian.
You say
“The Muslims claim to the Land is also a ridiculous fallacy. There is no native Arab claim to the Land. Arabs didn’t make their first incursions into the Land until 600 some odd years after the Romans named the Land Palestine.”
You are parroting the Zionist myth that Rome expelled the Jews from Palestine 2000 years ago and that the land remained virtually empty until the arrival of Muslims in the sixth century.
A more likely scenario is that in the sixth century most Palestinian Jews converted to Islam and the population remained mostly descendants of Jewish converts with a minority of Jewish hold outs until the nineteenth century arrival of the Zionist descendants of gentiles converted to Judaism by Jews from the diaspora.
Sicilian1
“The Palestinians HAVE a home it’s called Jordan and the Brits gave it to the Arab world and it amounted to 75% of the so-called Promised Land. And this was back in 1923, some 25 years before the UN Partition Plan created Israel and a separate Arab domain that wasn’t even called Palestine at this point.”
By What right did Britain give land that did not belong to Britain to anyone, Arab or Jew? In any case why should the indigenous occupants of Palestine including those who formed the majority in that area of Palestine that became Israel agree to having part of their land confiscated and donated for the Jewish homeland whether br Britain in 1923 or the UN in 1948?
First off, any Jewish “converts” to Islam, we’re “converts” by FORCE like 99% of “converts” to Islam in ancient times.
Islamic conversion by a true belief in someone’s heart IS a complete FALLACY. 99% of Muslim’s today are Muslims because one of their descendants was living in a land that was overrun by Muslims and given a choice submit or die. That is a fact!!!
And the Land has NEVER been truly owned by anyone. It has ALWAYS through the course of history been a Land of conquer! The Turks had it and the Brits TOOK it.
The Jews were given the Land (Just like the ancient Byzantines were given the Land). The Arabs tried to TAKE the Land in ’48 and again in ’67 and the Jews defeated the Arabs both times. So now at this current time it’s the Jews Land and until someone takes this Land which as I said has always been a Land possessed by conquest it WILL be the Jews land.
My point is this: try to get it and stay on it. You can argue all day about Zionism and the Jews claim to the Land. But the Arab/Muslim claim to native/soverign/indeginous Palestinian claim to the Land is a COMPLETE and UTTER fallacy. NO ARGHUMENT!!!
History proves that Arab claim to the Land is a LIE that has been perpetrated on the world.
Also there would be NO occupied territories if the Arabs didn’t create them.
Stop buying the Arab/Muslim/soverign/native/indigenous Palestinian MYTH that was first developed ONLY in recent modern times, 1964 to be exact by that human abomination Arafat!!
“Carlyle Moulton 1, June 13, 2009 at 5:01 am
In any occupied country, the occupier makes effective use collaborators drawn from the occupied population to frustrate resistance. It is not difficult for the occupation to recruit collaborators, they are in position to make the lives of people who refuse to collaborate very miserable and to grant benefits to those who do. Have cancer, want to go to hospital in Israel, well sorry you can’t go unless you agree to spy on Hamas, wont agree then go home and die.
The only way the occupied people can counter collaboration is to deal very firmly with those that are caught. If this means killing the occasional scapegoat then that is an acceptable cost. As far as deterring potential collaborators is concerned it makes no difference if the 15 year old was in fact innocent. In this the killing of the boy is no different from the normal operation of the US justice system where it is more important that someone be convicted than that the person convicted be the one who performed the action of the crime.”
—————————————————————-
Caryle,
That seems a very good anaylsis to me. All totalitarian actors make use of “examples” to keep people in line.
Sicilian.
Whether the Palestinian Jews converted to Islam because they were forced is irrelevant if true, but the fact that there remained Jews in Palestine suggests that the conversion was not complete.
The Arab claim to the land may be a LIE but why is it any mores so a LIE than the claim by Zionist Jews to the same land?
Why I am I wasting time trying to talk sense to a troll, back under your bridge naughty troll, get back, go back!!!
rofl
No, I’m trying to waste my time with someone who has a problem with Jews as your constant reference to Zionism suggests, a term I never once brought up.
My point is clear: It has ALWAYS been a Land of coquest whether you believe God Promised the Land to the Jews or not.
The Arabs attained the Land by conquest and most recently (’48 and again in ’67) LOST the Land through a military defeat, plain and simple. The Arabs are the ones opening themselves up to criticism when they cry about a rightful home in the Land, a Land that they themselves TOOK from someone else.
Unfortunately the native peoples to the Land, probably the Canaanites, have been lost to history or otherwise assimilated into other cultures so no world body can intervene to give the Land back to the natives because they do NOT exist in the world today. The Arabs have no native claim to the Land because they were in Arabia for thousands of years before they made their assaults in the Middle East and forced their conquests to adopt Islam.
My continued point is that all the propaganda diseminated and bought to and by the public has no basis in historical fact.
If the Palestinians cry for a home was just that and not wrapped in an historical distortiobn to make the world believe they have legitimacy and are victims of the Jews what is so insulting to the intelligence of someone with knowledge of the issue.
If you want an objective, intelligent, thourough, critical analysis of the subject then please read my post “A Defense of Israel”
GARY T,
Your support is acknowledged and appreciated.
Thank You
Author: Carlyle Moulton
Comment:
In any occupied country, the occupier makes effective use collaborators drawn from the occupied population to frustrate resistance. It is not difficult for the occupation to recruit collaborators, they are in position to make the lives of people who refuse to collaborate very miserable and to grant benefits to those who do. Have cancer, want to go to hospital in Israel, well sorry you can’t go unless you agree to spy on Hamas, wont agree then go home and die.
me: let me ask you this: how many times have you been to Israel? Know any Israelis? if you had.if you did you’d know that Israeli hospitals treat everyone who enters regardless of ethnicity or religion. Israeli trauma centers treat the suicide bombers alongside the victims. this is a huge source of discord within Israel but generally is accepted because it is humane and the right thing to do.
what Israel does not want is to be an occupier. what they do want is for the arab nations that surround them to recognize their right to exist andto work with them to create a viable stable palestinian state.
YOU:The only way the occupied people can counter collaboration is to deal very firmly with those that are caught. If this means killing the occasional scapegoat then that is an acceptable cost. As far as deterring potential collaborators is concerned it makes no difference if the 15 year old was in fact innocent. In this the killing of the boy is no different from the normal operation of the US justice system where it is more important that someone be convicted than that the person convicted be the one who performed the action of the crime.
me: this is fantasy and conjecture. NGO’s have been working to build bridges to peace by working with kids. Israeli and Palestinian kids attend weekend workshops and camps geared to creating understanding and in many areas like Haifa there is almost no discord between jew and arab. the children get what the adults sometimes can’t get.
these are facts and you can check them out. my guess is that you won’t.
me: let me ask you this: how many times have you been to Israel? Know any Israelis? if you had.if you did you’d know that Israeli hospitals treat everyone who enters regardless of ethnicity or religion. Israeli trauma centers treat the suicide bombers alongside the victims. this is a huge source of discord within Israel but generally is accepted because it is humane and the right thing to do.
–
Get off it. Despite what you say you haven’t given up on being right.
Not for a moment!
Patty C writes: Get off it. Despite what you say you haven’t given up on being right.
Not for a moment!
get off what? the fact that I have been to Israel about a dozen times, have family there and know a few things about the origins of zionism, the current situation and various social service movements that are dedicated to finding new avenues to peace?
it seems you have decided to get personal with me and in a very unattractive way.
it’s okay, really. you will continue to look like a moron and I will continue to be reasonable, honest and civilized.
have a nice day.
GWLawSchoolMom
Israeli hospitals treat everyonee but to get treatment they have to reach the hospital first. A Gazan or west Bank patient must be allowed to cross into Israel and at the crossing Shin Bet will interview him and make it cleat that unless he agrees to collaborate he is going nowhere. There are plenty of reports of this happening.
Sicilian.
I use the word “Zionist” for the simple reason that not all Jews nor even all Israelis are responsible for the things done to the Palestinians.
Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israelis are Zionist.
Scicillian:
Your welcome; I thought it unfair to characterize you as such.
Your comments contribute to the discussion and are on point to what is being discussed. When the others had nothing to say to your substantive discussion, they called you a troll.
Either they are afraid/confused as to how counter your argument on the facts you raise, or they just don’t know what a troll is.
I meant “you’re”, not “your”
Carlyle writes: Israeli hospitals treat everyonee but to get treatment they have to reach the hospital first. A Gazan or west Bank patient must be allowed to cross into Israel and at the crossing Shin Bet will interview him and make it cleat that unless he agrees to collaborate he is going nowhere. There are plenty of reports of this happening.
which would make sense if it were true.
I asked if you’d ever been to Israel. have you? ever been inside an Israeli hospital?
an Israeli medical school or nursing college? I have and am happy to report as did a 20/20 episode in the last few years that Israel hospitals are characterized as islands of peace and sanity where all are treated and where palestinian doctors and nurses are trained and all work alongside one another. triage is performed according to those whose medical needs are most critical not according to ethnicity or religion.
btw, there are hospitals in the west bank and in gaza. they are palestinian run but do not offer advanced care. humanitarian transport to israeli hospitals is routine and it isnt shin bet that had jurisdiction.
really. don’t make guesses. buy a plane ticket.
if you like I’d be happy to make the necessary introductions to get you into the only level one trauma unit in the middle east and it’s in jerusalem.
Carlyle writes: I use the word “Zionist” for the simple reason that not all Jews nor even all Israelis are responsible for the things done to the Palestinians.
Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israelis are Zionist.
ok. now a history lesson. modern zionism began just over 100 years ago. Theodore Hertzl a Hungarian journalist was in Paris covering the Dreyfuss trial. When Dreyfuss was convicted on the flimsiest evidence and send to devil’s island, Hertzl wrote lengthy articles on the need for a Jewish homeland in what we recognize today as Israel. There has been an uninterrupted jewish presence there for thousands of years although at this time it was Turkish controlled. Hertzl argued that after centuries of persecution in Europe characterized by expulsions, killings, ghettoization, etc that jews needed to live someplace where they might self govern. His dream was a return to Israel where Jews might live in peace, free to express themselves without fear and free to pursue self-determination on all levels. this would be accomplished, he wrote, when Jewish criminals were tried in Jewish courts and once sentenced sent to Jewish prisons.
Jews mainly from Germany and Russia began to leave their homes and once they got to Israel began to buy land. This influx of jewish settlers began in the late 19th century and by the 1920′s there was a growing and definite presence in cities and on collective farms called kibbutzim.
This is a real thin summary of how the modern zionist movement began but its goals were never to displace arabs but to live harmoniously, alongside them.
today, israel arabs enjoy every freedom that israeli jews do. they have full representation in the Knesset and the only difference between them and the palestinians is that when Israel was recognized the israeli arabs chose to stay and become citizens. I could elaborate if you’d like
Carlyle Moulton 1, June 13, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Sicilian.
I use the word “Zionist” for the simple reason that not all Jews nor even all Israelis are responsible for the things done to the Palestinians.
Not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israelis are Zionist.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sounds like a bad trip back to the LSAT.
GWLawSchoolMom.
We are arguing at cross purposes.
I am sure that Israeli Hospitals are every bit as good as you say they are and accept all races and religions as you say, but that is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. My point is that the Israelis use the withholding of access to hospital as a means to coerce sick Palestinians to collaborate. This is not done at the hospital doors but at the crossing points from Gaza and The West Bank into Israel where Shin Bet turns sick Palestinians back unless they agree to collaborate.
GWLawSchoolMum.
I agree that the Jews need a homeland of their own free of Christian neighbors who are likely at any moment to form mobs and turn on them, murder them and divide their property. The core problem is finding an empty land where they could make their homeland without displacing by either ethnic cleansing or genocide the indigenous population. Such an empty land did not exist. Before Zionist immigration the population of the Ottoman province of Palestine consisted of about 300,000 Muslims and 40,000 Jews. This does not fit the definition of unoccupied.
It is true that some of the colonists intended to live in harmony with the indigenous population, but the more realistic ones such as Jabotinsky did not and foresaw the necessity of expelling the Palestinians. There is nothing here that differs from the events of any other colonial settler nation. The process begins with the statement of benevolence towards the indigines and ends with either ethnic cleansing or genocide as in Australia or the USA. What makes Israel seem different is that Israel is still in the ethnic cleansing phase which was completed in the USA before the 20th century and in Australia by about 1960. The US and Australia have forgotten their dirty wars against their natives but in Israel it is still going on under the gaze of the whole world.
If Israel wants to complete the job as did Australia and the USA I suggest that they ban all foreign travelers and reporters for about 50 years.
get off what?
–
You stated elsewhere that you used to blog incessantly and vehemently, daily for hours, with regard to the correctness of various religions claiming sole rights to the one and only
‘God’. AND that you ‘gave up’ and that you ‘don’t do it any more’.
Only then you go on to suggest you were doing so without regard to our own Jewish bias. I don’t see that at all from you.
You continue on with rants about how because you supposedly have been to Israel several times and have family there gives you greatest position to speak.
It doesn’t.
Their experience is not your experience. You can comment and reveal but only from arms length. That’s not what you attempt to do at all.
No more so than your initial statements that your mother and grandmother were supposed Holocaust survivors. And I am truly sorry if they really were but that is also still not happening now to you or anyone else – in WWWII Germany. Hitler is dead.
There are other things going on in the world, TODAY, which we all need to be concerned about with similar foreknowledge that can only be drawn from history.
p.s GWLSM, you haven’t tried to stay out of the personal hoo-hah, as you say, for one moment. If there is popularity contest going on, you’re running it and you started as soon as you arrived.
I have a sister-in-law just like you. You fool no one with the possible exception of my oldest brother who I imagine has nothing but respect for CA community property laws, also.
Otherwise, he should have divorced her years ago.
Basic timeline on Palestine & numbers on population: go to nation_reborn:
http://israelvets.com/home.html
http://israelvets.com/pictorialhist_nation_reborn.html
The Jewish State gets Smaller
Population of Palestine
Jewish Arab
1883 15,300 356,000
1914 61,000 737,000
1922 95,000 726,000
1931 176,000 881,000
1939 458,000 1,083,000
1946 603,000 1,340,000
Above- tabs didn’t work, sorry.
Carylton writes:
We are arguing at cross purposes.
I am sure that Israeli Hospitals are every bit as good as you say they are and accept all races and religions as you say, but that is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. My point is that the Israelis use the withholding of access to hospital as a means to coerce sick Palestinians to collaborate. This is not done at the hospital doors but at the crossing points from Gaza and The West Bank into Israel where Shin Bet turns sick Palestinians back unless they agree to collaborate.
me: I am not arguing. are you? you seem to be making stuff up and I am responding with what life in Israel is actually like.
your point is false. Israelli do not provide medical care to coerce anything. it just is not done.
if someone has told you otherwise they are lying and chances are don’t know a single israeli doctor ( I know scores) and have never been to israel.
let me know when you are planning a trip. I’d be happy to get you connected with some people who’d be happy to show you what life is really like.
Patty C writes:
You stated elsewhere that you used to blog incessantly and vehemently, daily for hours, with regard to the correctness of various religions claiming sole rights to the one and only
‘God’. AND that you ‘gave up’ and that you ‘don’t do it any more’.
me: yeah. I used to get involved in debates about religion. It was kind of fun in the beginning. I never disclosed what my point of view was and it’s true. I don’t do that anymore.
you: Only then you go on to suggest you were doing so without regard to our own Jewish bias. I don’t see that at all from you.
me: well, I am Jewish. and I never once wrote that I ignored that when I wrote from a jewish point of view.
You: You continue on with rants about how because you supposedly have been to Israel several times and have family there gives you greatest position to speak.
It doesn’t.
Me: of course it does. your experiences give you street cred just as mine give me street cred. if you’d ever travelled you’d know that
you: Their experience is not your experience. You can comment and reveal but only from arms length. That’s not what you attempt to do at all.
I never suggested that I shared experience with anyone,. I simply encouraged someone who’d clearly never been to israel that perhaps going might clarify some misconceptions. it could. it might. staying home and reading anti zionist propaganda does not edify or add to experience.
you: No more so than your initial statements that your mother and grandmother were supposed Holocaust survivors. And I am truly sorry if they really were but that is also still not happening now to you or anyone else – in WWWII Germany. Hitler is dead.
me: yeah. hitler is dead. the stuff he did to people is not. and stuff like that does happen with alarming frequency. darfur.
you: There are other things going on in the world, TODAY, which we all need to be concerned about with similar foreknowledge that can only be drawn from history.
me: yeah. there are. how do you work for peace?
you: p.s GWLSM, you haven’t tried to stay out of the personal hoo-hah, as you say, for one moment. If there is popularity contest going on, you’re running it and you started as soon as you arrived.
me: really. then why don’t you do what you do best? stay on the personal attack. dredge up, if you can, one post where I got involved in who might be using someone else’s name.
you: I have a sister-in-law just like you. You fool no one with the possible exception of my oldest brother who I imagine has nothing but respect for CA community property laws, also.
Otherwise, he should have divorced her years ago.
me: feel free to ignore my posts. I don’t think you can. I think you lie for this stuff. it makes you feel alive.
CM writes: I agree that the Jews need a homeland of their own free of Christian neighbors who are likely at any moment to form mobs and turn on them, murder them and divide their property.
me: huh? when did I ever suggest that Jews are or ought to be separatist? if you want to get sarcastic, that’s fine. I enjoy a rapier like wit but remember the first rule in writing in that style is that you have to have the kernel of fact.
you: The core problem is finding an empty land where they could make their homeland without displacing by either ethnic cleansing or genocide the indigenous population. Such an empty land did not exist. Before Zionist immigration the population of the Ottoman province of Palestine consisted of about 300,000 Muslims and 40,000 Jews. This does not fit the definition of unoccupied.
me: the early zionists went to what we now call Israel for many reasons chiefly among them, an uninterrupted historical connection. had they been welcomed fully and completely as citizens of the European christian nations the zionist movement would never have occurred. 1900 years of persecution doe that to a people. why do you believe that Jews finding unoccupied land is the criteria for zionism?
you: It is true that some of the colonists intended to live in harmony with the indigenous population, but the more realistic ones such as Jabotinsky did not and foresaw the necessity of expelling the Palestinians. There is nothing here that differs from the events of any other colonial settler nation. The process begins with the statement of benevolence towards the indigines and ends with either ethnic cleansing or genocide as in Australia or the USA. What makes Israel seem different is that Israel is still in the ethnic cleansing phase which was completed in the USA before the 20th century and in Australia by about 1960. The US and Australia have forgotten their dirty wars against their natives but in Israel it is still going on under the gaze of the whole world.
me: again, you speak from a place of conjecture and falsehood.
you: If Israel wants to complete the job as did Australia and the USA I suggest that they ban all foreign travelers and reporters for about 50 years.
me; clearly you are incapable of having a real discussion. your insistence that israel is a criminal state guilty of ethnic cleansing occupies the part of your brain you dedicated to world affairs.
israel left gaza and everyday rockets from gaza rain down on Israeli homes in s’derot. longer range missiles are now reaching ashkelon. soon they will reach tel aviv. what should the israeli response be?
“GWLSM, you haven’t tried to stay out of the personal hoo-hah, as you say, for one moment. If there is popularity contest going on, you’re running it and you started as soon as you arrived.”
Patty C,
It really would be nice for awhile to hear from you with the depth of intelligence we all know you have. It does begin to seem that you resent almost every newcomer to JT’s blog and take pains to attack, rather than welcome them. You are old enough and smart enough to know that change in everything is inevitable. I have no doubt that in the halcyon days of yore, prior to my time, JT’s blog was a treasure house. That was what attracted me to it in the first place. Yes too there are annoying trolls, but i think that we would all continue to enjoy the experience even more, if you attacked the real trolls more and people who contribute, despite your differences of belief with them less.
Mike
Mike S and anyone that cares,
I think we can all make this Blawg better if we all take the approach of no nasty direct personal attacks. Attacks, yes trying to figure out ones logic. I have been guilty and I have been taking the High Road sense.
Thank you. The only options available as the Professor said is to ban or block these type of unkind attacks.
GWLawSchoolMom
When I wrote that the Jews need a homeland I was not being sarcastic. As you point out they have endured 1900 years of Christian bigotry. Some Christians might assert that the excesses of the holocaust have cured Christianity of antisemitism. I as an ex-Christian atheist remain skeptical. What I see in the world is that the immunizing effect that the holocaust had against human rights abuses is wearing off and supporters of all kinds of prejudicial ~isms proudly march under the banner of being against the great evil of political correctness.
Many Jews now feel safe living in the USA,Australia, Europe and South America but it is understandable that many others do not. The fear generated by pogroms culminating in the holocaust does not wear off unless it is over many hundreds of years, and it is my opinion that a resurgence of vicious Christian Jew hatred is possible given that so many who call themselves Christian are members of anti-everything hate cults, better to call them Christian Taliban or Christofascists.
If I were a Jew I would certainly want a safe place to flee if or when the pogroms return. So yes the Jews need a homeland, not just want one.
GWLawSchoolMom
You say “your insistence that Israel is a criminal state guilty of ethnic cleansing occupies the part of your brain you dedicated to world affairs.”
It is futile to judge collective entities such as nations or peoples by the same standards of law and morality by which one judges individuals. All nations are psychopaths. Nothing that Israel has done or is doing to the Palestinians is any worse that the things that Australia has done in the past to the unwanted indigines and their descendants or that the USA has done to the American Indians or Indonesia is doing to the natives of West Papua. However in the case of Australia and the USA these events have been edited out of the history that reaches the common people and these are unaware of the prior “criminal” acts of their great nations. In Australia right wingers use the term black armband history to describe the works of Henry Reynolds and the few other historians who concentrate on relations between Australians and the unwanted descendants of unlawful migrants who arrived 40,000 years before the rightful owners. Israel also has its revisionist historians who are reinterpreting events just prior to and soon after the establishment of the state of Israel, for example Benny Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris
and I have no doubt that he is as much reviled by Israeli rightists as is Henry Reynolds by their Australian equivalents.
I did not say Israel is a criminal state, simply that it is a state acting as other states do and have done in similar circumstances. It is you who are reading into what I said the accusation of criminality. Things that are crimes when done by individuals are not crimes when done by states unless that state is comprehensively defeated in war as was Germany in 1945. It is murder and robbery if you or I kill one person and rob them but it is not murder and robbery when a state kills 100,000 and steals their land.
The link for Benny Morris did not work in the previous post. Here it is again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris.
GWLawSchoolMum.
The principle by which Australia justified the confiscation without compensation of Aboriginal land was “Terra Nullius”, that the aborigines wandered over the land but did not own it. “A land without a people for a people without a land” or something very similar was the slogan that the Zionists used to claim Palestine for themselves.
On Shin Bet pressuring sick Palestinians to spy in return for medical treatment here is one link http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1.
It is the first of 17,500 that came up when I submitted the following search string to Google:-
“”Shin Bet” Palestinians from Gaza not allowed to cross into Israel unless they collaborate”.
Carlyle writes: When I wrote that the Jews need a homeland I was not being sarcastic.
me: okay then. Jews do have a homeland. It is Israel.
you: As you point out they have endured 1900 years of Christian bigotry. Some Christians might assert that the excesses of the holocaust have cured Christianity of antisemitism.
me: that would be nice it it were true. you can’t possibly think it is true, do you? not after that nice christian man shot and killed a guard at the holocaust museum, do you?
you: What I see in the world is that the immunizing effect that the holocaust had against human rights abuses is wearing off and supporters of all kinds of prejudicial ~isms proudly march under the banner of being against the great evil of political correctness.
me: then you’ d be delusional. given what humans are capable of the question isn’t why the holocaust happened, its why more stuff like this doesn’t happen and the answer to that is this: it does. there is no immunizing effect to genocide. I could go into greater detail if you’d like.
also, I have no idea what you mean when you write “under the banner of being against the evil of political correctness” what does that mean?
you: Many Jews now feel safe living in the USA,Australia, Europe and South America but it is understandable that many others do not.
me: its harder to feel safe when synagogues and jewish community centers around the world come under attack. they do. not often, but they do, sometimes resulting a a few deaths and sometimes in hundreds of deaths like the bombing in Buenos Aires some time ago.
you: The fear generated by pogroms culminating in the holocaust does not wear off unless it is over many hundreds of years, and it is my opinion that a resurgence of vicious Christian Jew hatred is possible given that so many who call themselves Christian are members of anti-everything hate cults, better to call them Christian Taliban or Christofascists.
me: in order for fear to wear off people have to not only feel safe but be safe. I don’t care what they call themselves. one label is as good as another.
you: If I were a Jew I would certainly want a safe place to flee if or when the pogroms return. So yes the Jews need a homeland, not just want one.
me: okay then, so where would you go? where do you think I should run when the pogroms return? right now, the only country that would have me, no questions asked, is Israel. I think if you talk to the average American Jew you’d be told that we feel safer in the world, safer in general because of the existence of Israel.
what the world does not seem to like are strong Jews…. armed Jews. we are better loved when we are dead.
Carlyle
On Shin Bet pressuring sick Palestinians to spy in return for medical treatment here is one link http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1.
me: the Guardian? seriously? this is perhaps the most anti-semitic screed since Der Sturmer.
GWLawSchoolMum
You seem incapable of assimilating anything that I say for emotional reasons. You don’t even notice that on many points I am in fact agreeing with you.
If you don’t like the Guardian article, retry the same Google search that I did, I gave you the search string in my earlier post, just edit out the first and last double quote, see if all 17500 can be dismissed as anti-semitic.
carlyle writes:
You seem incapable of assimilating anything that I say for emotional reasons. You don’t even notice that on many points I am in fact agreeing with you.
If you don’t like the Guardian article, retry the same Google search that I did, I gave you the search string in my earlier post, just edit out the first and last double quote, see if all 17500 can be dismissed as anti-semitic.
me: the only thing I can respond to is what you actually write. if you cite the guardian as evidence of what Israel is up to wouldn’t you care to know that it is the guardian of anti-semitism and little else?
I don’t know why you would think I need to google the history of my own family. not that all Jews are my family….
and if you notice I don;t argue….I ask you to elaborate.
you agree that Jews need a homeland. do you think it should be Israel?
it seems to me that you think it should be Brooklyn maybe.
GWLawSchoolMum.
I read about Shin Bet forcing sick Palestinians to collaborate by withholding access to medical treatment in Israel some time ago. I do not know where exactly the article was and I don’t as a rule bookmark every interesting article that I see. The reason that I referred you to the Guardian article is that it was the first on the hit list that Google gave and had the appropriate content. If you read the article you would notice that it is an Israeli Human Rights organization that is making the allegations.
As to where the Jewish homeland should be. If the death penalty is appropriate for murder then the penalty for genocide should be genocide. The proper thing to have done in 1945 would have been to reopen the death camps and process the non-Jewish Germans through them until they had been thinned down by the same proportion as had European Jewry, then to expel the rest and make Germany the Jewish homeland. The expelled Germans should have been accepted as refugees in other European countries with the ratios in which they were distributed being related to the relative extent of anti-semitism in those countries. Any compensation to the refugees should also have been apportioned to anti-semitic nations in the same way.
CM,
You cant be serious
Chris.
Yes I can be serious. Read Jonah Goldhagens book “Hitler’s Willing Executioners”. The holocaust was a German project not a Nazi one. Nazi antisemitism was simply a continuation of German Christian antisemitism which the Nazis stole. The Holocaust could not have happened but that the vast majority of Germans either thought it was a good idea or did not oppose it because of their antisemitism. If there were justice in the world something like my suggestion would have happened.
In my previous post in which I refer to “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” I forgot the author’s first name, his full name is Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. The book makes extremely depressing reading but I think it is a true reflection of what happened.
“CM
What I see in the world is that the immunizing effect that the holocaust had against human rights abuses is wearing off and supporters of all kinds of prejudicial ~isms proudly march under the banner of being against the great evil of political correctness.”
GWLSM,
I’ve been avidly following your dialogue with Carlyle and the back forth has been quite interesting. As he knows I mostly side with you on this, but I think you did misunderstand his point above. My sense is that he was using “political correctness” as the catch phrase of the bigots, who have been using it as cover to express their own bigotry. Carlyle has, since he began first posting here, maintained a consistency in his opinions and I believe he is truly not Anti-Jewish per se. Where I differ with him and where you have made a great case is in how he views the situation vis-a-vis Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State. I think he understands the need for a Jewish State, which is to his credit, but flounders rhetorically on just where that state should have been established, as you have pointed out.
Carlyle,
Your Germany solution to the “Jewish Problem” (i.e. deporting all Germans for their complicity with Hitler and the Nazi’s, would have created a situation far worse than what we see today in the ME. While it is an attractive solution, I for instance as a Jew will personally never visit Germany, the displacement of that many Germans throughout Europe would have created a situation in Europe today that would have made the ME seem like a walk in the park. The displaced Germans would be seething with hatred.
The European nations accepting them would be seething with hatred against the emigre’s and against the Jews for “being the cause” of foisting their one time Nazi oppressors onto them. As the decades passed, seven so far, this would have evolved into an Anti-Jewish feeling of appalling intensity and made the possible resurgence of Nazism in Europe a certainty. Except this time it wouldn’t be Germany, but all the other countries allied, antipathetically against a Jewish Germany.
The second point I’d like to make is this: The Israeli’s at this point cannot be displaced. They are an atomic power, with seven decades of having their backs up against the wall and would lay waste to everything before giving up Israel.
While I agree strongly with GWLSM’s presentation of Israeli history, at this point to me the point is moot, due to Israel’s atomic arsenal, they are not moving despite the equities of the situation. That being the case to me the only viable solution is the two state one and that seems the only hope.
In truth the best solution would be for Jordan to absorb the West Bank, as it was before 1967 and for Egypt to absorb Gaza. Neither country is willing to do that because of highly unpleasant experiences themselves with the Arabs
calling themselves Palestinians. Thus it is two state, or perpetual warfare deteriorating into a situation that would make today’s seem mild in comparison.
Mike S,
You said, “In truth the best solution would be for Jordan to absorb the West Bank, as it was before 1967 and for Egypt to absorb Gaza. Neither country is willing to do that because of highly unpleasant experiences themselves with the Arabs
calling themselves Palestinians.” I was wondering if you’d elaborate on why you think Jordan and Egypt are unwilling to go back to the pre-67 borders. Merely curious as to your learned take on the subject.
Carlyle writes: read about Shin Bet forcing sick Palestinians to collaborate by withholding access to medical treatment in Israel some time ago.
me: not everything you read is true. quoting from the guardian proves that.
you: The reason that I referred you to the Guardian article is that it was the first on the hit list that Google gave and had the appropriate content. If you read the article you would notice that it is an Israeli Human Rights organization that is making the allegations.
me: so because it was first on a google list it must be accurate? there are israeli organizations that oppose peace with the palestinians. there ae some who think they should all be rounded up and sent to arab countries. these are people with radical points of view that are not representative of any Israeli government position or policy any more than the KKK is representative of any US position or policy
you: As to where the Jewish homeland should be. If the death penalty is appropriate for murder then the penalty for genocide should be genocide. The proper thing to have done in 1945 would have been to reopen the death camps and process the non-Jewish Germans through them until they had been thinned down by the same proportion as had European Jewry, then to expel the rest and make Germany the Jewish homeland.
me: do you get how sick that is? it’s also not Jewish thing to do and this is crucial to the conversation. so giving Germany to Jews is really your solution in 2009?
GWLawSchoolMom;
My comments related to the Palestinians’ being driven mad by the situation with Israel because this story was about a Palestinian family, not because I do not recognize that the people of Israel are also under extreme prssure from the situation.
Please don’t be so defensive – every mention of one side’s troubles does not necessarily ignore the suffering of the other side.
Micheal S writes: GWLSM,
I’ve been avidly following your dialogue with Carlyle and the back forth has been quite interesting. As he knows I mostly side with you on this, but I think you did misunderstand his point above. My sense is that he was using “political correctness” as the catch phrase of the bigots, who have been using it as cover to express their own bigotry. Carlyle has, since he began first posting here, maintained a consistency in his opinions and I believe he is truly not Anti-Jewish per se. Where I differ with him and where you have made a great case is in how he views the situation vis-a-vis Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State. I think he understands the need for a Jewish State, which is to his credit, but flounders rhetorically on just where that state should have been established, as you have pointed out.
I’m not looking to have anyone take sides, mine included. I don’t mind finding places where people agree but pretty much insist that agreement on areas of fact takes precedence. I still don’t know what political correctness means. I don’ t know what it means when the bigots use it to defend their views. Do they mean that if you are not supportive of civil rights then you are not being politically correct?
Carlyle has been consistent but has not wanted to check his facts. I don’t think he is a jew hater and I can find one under just about any rock, I just think that he is unaware of what zionism is, what the reality of living is Israel is like for jewish and israeli arabs and that if the palestinians want a state they are closer than ever to having one. but they have to do two things and I can’t understand why these two things are so objectionable and why people like Carlyle can’t wrap their heads around it. oh, those two things are 1) recognize Israel’s right to exist and 2) end the violence.
I wonder if Carlyle can recognize Israel’s right to exist.
GWLawSchoolMom
I am sorry, you cannot have a conversation with anyone without personally attacking them. Forget the ideal of theory. You must attack viciously.
I am only kidding. Roflol. It is good that you did not get scared off.
It seems to me that the root of the murder in question isn’t really religion. Religion is just the “flag” used to separate the two sides in what amounts to a conflict between tribes. The Palestinians are angry because they feel they’ve been displaced and marginalized in land their direct ancestors inhabited – and they have been.
The Jewish Israelis feel that their very existence is threatened by Palestinian terrorism. The murder of innocent teenagers and shoppers is inexcusable for any reason.
I’m a supporter of Israel’s right to exist, and the right of the citizens to safety and security. But that doesn’t mean that the Palestinians don’t have legitimate grievances. Grievances that would likely disappear if they would stop supporting those who commit acts of terror, but real grievances nonetheless.
For the record, I think people should avoid using terms like “zionist” in any civil discussion. Whatever the denotative definition of the word, today it has clearly negative connotative implications. Using it to describe any modern Jew or Israeli makes you appear to be a anti-semite, even if you’re not.
Whatever the situation now, in the aftermath of WW2 there was a strong desire to create a Jewish state in what is now Israel. The nation exists. Nothing is going to change that. The Palestinians have so far been unable to accept this simple fact. No amount of terrorism will drive the Jews from Israel. No amount of terrorism will help them garner sympathy among the majority of Americans.
Because I do not approve of all the actions taken by the state of Israel in response to Palestinian terrorism, it took me many years of study and contemplation to come to the point where I could consider myself a supporter of Israel. (Note that being opposed to some of the actions of the state of Israel does not make you a anti-semite, but many anti-semites will use this opposition to mask their anti-semitism.) For me the defining issue is that the Israeli government does not target Palestinian non-combatants for killing. Many Palestinians do die in Israeli police actions and military responses, but that is not the intention of the state actions. In fact, the Israelis are better then the USA when it comes to investigating abuses and bringing malefactors to justice.
To get back to the point of the original post, there are many differences that divide the Israelis from the Palestinians. Religion is probably the largest, but westernization, education and other factors also play a part. I think it is simplistic at best to blame this killing on religion, when it is really an issue of two different peoples attempting to live together. I know that it is significantly more common for Israelis to want peaceful coexistence than for Palestinians, but there are some very vocal groups among the Israelis who aren’t tolerant of the Palestinians. Typically, obnoxious and loud voices, even when in a minority, will carry a weight disproportionate to their actual support in the populace as a whole.
I may understand why the Palestinians felt a need to kill this 15 year old, but I can never accept it. It is an act of immoral and unethical savagery. The people who did are the worst sort of barbarians, but their motivations are more political than religious.
Thanks
Ken in Tucson writes:
It seems to me that the root of the murder in question isn’t really religion. Religion is just the “flag” used to separate the two sides in what amounts to a conflict between tribes. The Palestinians are angry because they feel they’ve been displaced and marginalized in land their direct ancestors inhabited – and they have been.
Me: religion has alot to do with it. the israeli settlers feel that god gave them the land. that is religion. what might have been tribal centuries ago has grown into an economic problem exacerbated by differences of religious belief. to separate religion from the problem does not solve the problem. and yes, the Palestinians are angry. they were lied to and used as political pawns for decades. had they simply stayed in Israel they’d be citizens with a vote and representation in government but instead they fled to arab countries who never emancipated them, but tossed them into refugee camps, gave them track suits and guns and taught them that israel should be pushed into the sea. they were promised that and they were promised all of israel in return for their militarism. when that did not work they were promised 72 virgins and an income for their families for becoming martyrs. I have skipped over alot of history here, but you get the idea.
You: The Jewish Israelis feel that their very existence is threatened by Palestinian terrorism. The murder of innocent teenagers and shoppers is inexcusable for any reason.
me: their existence is threatened. I don’t know how to live that way and I have to say that when i am there my whole sense of where I walk and who I see is heightened.
you: I’m a supporter of Israel’s right to exist, and the right of the citizens to safety and security. But that doesn’t mean that the Palestinians don’t have legitimate grievances. Grievances that would likely disappear if they would stop supporting those who commit acts of terror, but real grievances nonetheless.
me: both sides have legitimate grievances. when you talk to the average palestinian in gaza, all they want is work, purpose, the ability to support their families and peace. hamas, hezbollah don’t want this. their cause is backed by syria and iran.
you: For the record, I think people should avoid using terms like “zionist” in any civil discussion. Whatever the denotative definition of the word, today it has clearly negative connotative implications. Using it to describe any modern Jew or Israeli makes you appear to be a anti-semite, even if you’re not.
me: why? what’s wrong with the word “zionist” ? calling someone a zionist doesn’t mean they are an anti-semite or that you are an anti-semite. I’m a zionist. and I want peace.
you: Because I do not approve of all the actions taken by the state of Israel in response to Palestinian terrorism, it took me many years of study and contemplation to come to the point where I could consider myself a supporter of Israel.
me: humans make mistakes. governments make them also. I don’t know why it took you years of study to support the right of the only democracy in the region to exist. the US supports Israel not because we have some belief that Jews need a home of their own but because Israel has strategic value. It doesn’t hurt that we share medical and technological endeavors.
You: (Note that being opposed to some of the actions of the state of Israel does not make you a anti-semite, but many anti-semites will use this opposition to mask their anti-semitism.)
me; being a jew hater makes one an anti-semite.
you: To get back to the point of the original post, there are many differences that divide the Israelis from the Palestinians. Religion is probably the largest, but westernization, education and other factors also play a part.
me: who does not want westernization… and by this I think you mean materialization…. the palestinians want this. they want everything we want. cable tv, broad band, cars, better housing, clean air and water. good schools. they want what israel has and what their government denies them. keeping them impoverished helps the cause of hamas. a solid middle class doesn’t have the will to blow themselves up as readily as a impoverished one does.
YOu: I may understand why the Palestinians felt a need to kill this 15 year old, but I can never accept it. It is an act of immoral and unethical savagery. The people who did are the worst sort of barbarians, but their motivations are more political than religious.
me: I don’t get what brings a parent to kill their child and I will never get that.
you:Thanks
me: you are welcome.
Story update:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371100264&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer
It’s being reported that the victim Raed Sawalha, uncle and brother are suspected of his murder. Per the article, villagers in the town of Hijjah, reported to the boy’s father that he was observed speaking to an Israeli Border Police soldier.
Are the villagers giving feedback to the father to be believed?
“Sawalha’s uncle, told police investigators that he “lost his temper” when some boys in the village told him that his nephew had waved to a Border Police soldier as he drove by.” – Jerusalem Post
It reminds me of gang bangers in economically depressed anywhere USA.
Flash the wrong signs, colors what have you or are suspected of such behavior and you become a target. Who knows, it could’ve been the fifteen year old hormones, he waved at a pretty face driving by.
His family is ripped apart… brutal, the misery and suffering continue for all involved.
I wonder if the 2 sides could ever get together and just share the land without boundaries or exclusionary zones.
Probably too much to hope for.
GWLawSchoolMom.
You say “so because it was first on a google list it must be accurate?”
I say, I used Google to search for an article that I had read previously on Shin Bet forcing sick Palestinians to collaborate. It gave a hit list, I then started going through the hit list to find that article or another with the same or similar content. As it happened the first item in the hit list had the information for which I was looking, so I did not need to proceed any further, had it not been relevant I would have gone further through the list. If after examining a certain number I did not find the content I wanted I would have refined my search string and tried again. The reason that the first hit was relevant is that Google’s search algorithms are successful in putting content most relevant to the question near the top which is a credit to the programmers at Google, it says nothing whatever about the credibility or reliability of the content located.
However it seems to me that for you any article that implies criticism of Israel or Israelis cannot be credible and its author and publisher must be evil liars. Nowhere did I say it is wrong for Israel to withhold medical treatment from those who refuse to collaborate, this is normal behaviour for an occupying power just as executing real or suspected collaborators is normal behaviour for an occupied people.
Human nature is what it is. Human nature is not what some think it ought to be or what we ought to aspire to or what we mistakenly think is the nature of brave, good, noble people like us as opposed to the brutish nature of cowardly, evil, ignoble people like those from whom we are stealing. Both Palestinians and Israelis are behaving according to human nature, just as the Nazis were and not surprisingly both commit what dispassionate observers interpret as atrocities.
In your replies too my comments you keep accusing me of saying things that I have not in fact said. You see that CM says X, and you think that X implies Y therefore CM is saying Y. However it may be that I do not think that X implies Y. Because many people who believe X believe that X implies Y does not mean that I believe that same thing.
Learn to distinguish things that people actually say from implications that you read into their speech. The implications arise in your mind because of your beliefs. It may be that a writer who asserts X also believes that X implies Y and that this will be obvious to his readers and he intends that they receive two meanings the explicit meaning X and the implied meaning Y and this is how innuendo and dog whistling work. However it may also be that the writer is simply asserting X. Because most people take their beliefs from prepackaged sets – for example someone who opposes abortion probably supports the death penalty – it is tempting to assume that someone who asserts X would take his beliefs from a set that includes beliefs X and Y, but that may not be so. There do exist people whose opinions are not taken from the one of the few opinion sets from which most people choose, and I like to think that I am one of them.
Because I adapt a sarcastic tone does not mean that I do not think that the statements I make are valid. I just like sarcasm, it is my hobby.
Mike.
Killing most Germans and expelling the rest and turning Germany over to the Jews may not have been workable but it would have been just. The people paying for the crimes of antisemites would have been antisemites. Their is a difference between Christian antisemitism and Muslim/Arab antisemitism. Christian fear and hatred for Jews was never justified by anything Jews had actually done to Christians, Arab/Muslim/Palestinian antisemitism on the other hand is a predictable reaction to things that Israel has done to the Palestinians, namely murder and robbery with violence.
Mike
There was a time I am not sure how long ago when political correctness was an honest term with a valid meaning. It referred to situations where people took good ideas about human rights but stretched them to such absurd lengths that the effects were toxic to necessary free discussion of ideas.
Later the term was adopted by the rabid right and converted into a weapon to win any argument against treating untermenchen as if they were entitled to human rights without explicitly stating their opposition to human rights. “Politically Correct” became a slogan used as code for “Ha Ha Ha some idiot has said something that implies blacks/arabs,terrorists/druggies/poor people/other despised and marginalized group/…. are entitled to human rights such as the protection of the law for themselves and their property and protection from abusive use of the law, what a silly idiot he/she/it is, Ha Ha Ha, Ha De Ha.”
In Australia the term was very popular with the previous Australian Government, that of John Winston Howard and its supporters to dismiss any proposal involving treating the descendants of the unlawful migrants who arrived 40,000 years before the rightful owners as if they were entitled to the same rights as real citizens.
“I was wondering if you’d elaborate on why you think Jordan and Egypt are unwilling to go back to the pre-67 borders.”
Buddha,
Sorry for the delay in reply but I am avidly awaiting the arrival of my wife’s new laptop and so have been in a sharing mode for the last week or so.
The reason I stated the above has to do with what is now called “Black September.” It was a time in 1970 where the Jordanians expelled the PLO and its’ followers violently. From the Jordanian viewpoint the PLO had set up a separate “State within a State,” that was undermining the authority of the central government and in essence threatening to displace it perhaps entirely. The expelled people then went to Lebanon, where a similar process began, albeit with a less stable governmental entity. Egypt, which is having problems of its own in the tremendous struggle for power against Mubarek by Islamic fundamentalists, knows the history and wants no part of an autonomous and rowdy group within its’ borders. Think about it. Isn’t it curious that although Israel captured both the West Bank and Gaza in the 1967 war, neither Jordan nor Egypt is demanding the return of that land? Why is that? I don’t believe the answer lies in the selflessness of either government.
To discuss these issues one must differentiate them. On the one hand there is the Organization known as the PLO and its’ now diverse parts. On the other hand there are the valid aspirations of (I use the following because this was not the case until after 1967 and a Saudi financed PR barrage)those who are called the “Palestinians” for a place of their own.
Regarding the PLO it has been in essence the same as a criminal gang, masked by a patina of legitimacy in wanting to fulfill its people’s aspirations. Yassir Arafat, its’ leader for so much of its’ history was an Egyptian born nephew of the anti-Jewish Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The Mufti spent the WWII years voluntarily as a guest of Hitler in Berlin. His aim and then that of his nephew Arafat, was gaining political/religious power over what is now called Israel. Arafat, while posing as a serious political leader, was amassing billion$ in Swiss bank accounts and purposely keeping “his people” in abject misery, the better to fan the flames of their hatred and thus control them. The primary source of Arafat’s/PLO’s funding came from the Saudi’s and Syria, with the addition of Iran, after its’ revolution.
As for the needs of the peoples, I call pseudo-Palestinians (you can call them as you like) the bulk of them came from the 1947 war for Israeli Independence (you may call it something else)when the attacking Arab States called for them to leave the land to allow the Arabs to “sweep the Jews into the sea.” There was though, perhaps 25% of that group that was expelled by the Israeli’s as security risks. Through the years and generations this group has grown in numbers and also from some people whose ancestors never lived in the area. These people have been kept in a state of poverty and misery that is deplorable. However, that was a
necessity in order to keep them hating Israel and desperate enough to neglect their own lives in an effort to strike back at what they saw as their hated oppressor.
These people have been grievously used as political pawns by everyone involved in the ME. Clearly their needs have to be met. This is why a two state solution seems the only viable option. In truth I think a re-absorption of the disputed areas by Jordan and Egypt would be ideal for them, but for the reasons I gave above that isn’t going to happen. A one state solution isn’t going to happen either, because Israel is just as chary of it as the Jordanians and the Egyptians.
Below are two Wiki links on these issues. Being Wiki of course one has to meditate on its’ accuracy and lack of bias.
Given my laptop situation I did the backup quick and dirty, though from my experiences and complete readings I think they are mostly valid and would be agreed to generally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO_in_Lebanon
Carlyle,
First of all I personally never use the term antisemitism. This is because that term originated by Jew haters in the 1880′s as part of the vile eugenics movement and was later adopted by the Nazi’s. That’s why you’ll notice in my writing the term anti-Jewish.
“There was a time I am not sure how long ago when political correctness was an honest term with a valid meaning.’
Your explanation is quite correct and that was how I understood you were using it in the post in point and I agreed with it.
“Killing most Germans and expelling the rest and turning Germany over to the Jews may not have been workable but it would have been just.”
I see your point but disagree with it.
First of all think about it. If I as a left wing Jew, born towards the end of WWII with only distant relatives killed by the Shoah, will never visit Germany, or buy a German made product, what would someone who actually survived the Shoah feel about living there?
Secondly, I do believe that the vast majority of Germans either supported Hitler, or believed in his cause. However,
after his ascension to power as Chancellor and the power
consolidation that followed, it would have taken a very courageous person to have opposed the Nazi’s, even if they disagreed strongly with their policies. Most of us humans don’t have that courage of our convictions and as much as I am sickened by the Shoah and the German public’s compliance, I think displacement would have just been an extension of the inhumanity that had already occurred.
Thirdly, as I stated in the previous post, I think anti-Jewish feeling would have been much greater today than it is now.
“Arab/Muslim/Palestinian antisemitism on the other hand is a predictable reaction to things that Israel has done to the Palestinians, namely murder and robbery with violence.”
Leaving aside your charges of “murder and violence,” which as you know is a point of disagreement between us, most especially in the nuances of the reality, Muslim anti-Judaism has a history dating back almost 1,400 years.
Mohamed, specifically targeted the Jews of the Arabian peninsula (and indeed all Jews)for conversion and acceptance of his “Prophethood.” Like Martin Luther, when they didn’t immediately convert, he turned against them. While the Koran states that Muslims should respect the “people of the book”
(which included Christians)above other infidels, these “people” are clearly to live in subjugation to the Muslim.
The Dome of the Rock was built purposely above the site of the foundation stone of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (the most important Jewish holy site) to make the statement that Islam had replaced Judaism. Like Christianity, Islam borrows extensively from the Torah and purports to replace it. The problem is if the Jewish Torah beliefs are correct and the Jews don’t convert to follow the new Prophets, either Jesus or Mohamed, then the legitimacy of either Christianity or Islam is compromised.
In truth of course, like all such religious arguments, the roots lie in the resentment of the non-believer, for their non-belief. Long before 1947 Islamic anti-Jewishness was thriving, after 1947 just another rationale was added to the list of grievance from the Muslim perspective.
“I wonder if the 2 sides could ever get together and just share the land without boundaries or exclusionary zones.’
IS,
From a Jewish perspective a Jewish State is needed as a refuge/haven for Jews, if as has happened for 2,000 years the people in the country of their residence turn against them for being Jewish. For that reason and the ones I laid out in the posts above, a two state solution is the best answer.
Mike S,
Thanks for the reply and no apologies needed. I figured you were still in computer semi-limbo. I did not know the Grand Mufti was so tight with Hitler. You came down about where I thought you would and it confirms my suspicion that a lot of Jordan’s reluctance is “saving face” after their past acts. Hard to act honorable now. Saving face, however, doesn’t explain Egypt letting SA and Syria set their policy especially in regards to borders as that is a key element of sovereignty. I don’t disagree with your analysis a bit as to the cause, but to me is still doesn’t sync with Egyptian action – especially post Sadat. Unless it’s a outright bribe from SA that keeps them from asserting their legitimate claim(s). Yeah, it’s a little black hat, but let’s be honest about how vile the regime in SA is and the depths to which they’ll go to extend the reach of their theocracy. We should also be honest about Egypt being so poor as to find such payment attractive. It’s not out of the question. Provocation is provocation even when by proxy.
Glad to see your house is fully wired again.
Mike Spindel:
Until Arab dictators quit ginning the mill we will have discord. Israel needs to be supported by every right thinking person in this country. And the survival of Israel is a cause worthy of Americas blood and treasure. This is not from a christian or religious perspective either.
All you numb nuts that believe in moral equivalence, Israel is morally superior to any Arab dictatorship. In fact its’ legitimacy should not even be questioned. The Grand Mufti sided with the NAZI’s during WWII and deserved to be thrown out of Palestine. Sucks to have been on the loosing side, so take your licks and STFU about Israel. Its a done deal.
Wow, a STFU from the semi-troll.
If you’re going to bitch about ‘blase’, you shouldn’t contribute to it, sport. Mike returned fact and analysis and you returned what exactly? Snark? Hell, it’s not even good snark. What’s next? How about a couple of rounds of nanny nanny boo boo.
Buddha,
Is this the same Buddha who called me a “Troll” a few days ago?
I actually agree with your current post. It was a very thoughtful and cogent analysis.
I love term “psuedo”-Palestinian. The record is clear that there is no such thing as a native/soveriegn/indigenous Arab/Muslim/Palestinian state or people. Untill the current day Palestinians come to terms with that fact or stop allowing themselves to be brainwashed by their leaders there will be no peace. Untill the Palestinians relent on their insistence to an exclusivity to the Land and Abraham and God their will never be any peace.
The past is the past.Those involved should move forward from the present circumstances. The problem is that no one will let go of their past grievances. That problem of past grievances just gets exaccerbated because the Arab/Muslims base all their past grievanes on a revised and in some cases completely fabricated history.
We can all live and let live but it must start now and not have the past drudged up when dealing with the situation.
I say this in all humility when I tell you I have a very thourough post on sicilian1 on wordpress describing the whole Land situation.
I say troll and you magically appear.
You do the math.
I see that you are NOT an honorable individual. You are fresh and disrepectful.
I actually gave you a compliment because unlike the arrogant that you are I can take each commwent on their face and not let past or personal feelings get in the way of my analysis of a commentary. Something you are obviously incapable of doing.
Do NOT think for a milli-second you are the smartest guy in the room because you are not. I do NOT even understand what you are trying to impart with your tag-line (Buddha) because if you are a practicing Buddhist you are probably like all the “new-age” types who don’t know squat about the practice.
Your fresh personal attacks do not reflect someone aware of Siddhartha’s teachings.
I felt we could have an honest discussion but it seems you only want to talk to people who act as a sychophant to you.
If you had half a brain you would see that my original position to on this blog was very similar to yours about the “psuedo”-Palestinians. My post on my blog exposes the “psuedo”-Palestinians as just that.
Once again you are a fresh, arrogant, ignorant individual incapable of discussing anything unless you can get others to bow down to you. Don’t bother even posting a reply to save yourself from exposing your continued ignorance.
Carlyle writes: I say, I used Google to search for an article that I had read previously on Shin Bet forcing sick Palestinians to collaborate.
me: yeah, I get that. do you get that it isn’t true? and that what you did was to find the convenient lie and then make sure that you had an article to verify the lie?
you: However it seems to me that for you any article that implies criticism of Israel or Israelis cannot be credible and its author and publisher must be evil liars.
me: no, not so. I read articles that are critical if Israel all the time and reflect things to which I agree. what i don’t do is go to non-Israeli sources and the most virulently anti-Israeli sources at that for my news.
You: Nowhere did I say it is wrong for Israel to withhold medical treatment from those who refuse to collaborate, this is normal behaviour for an occupying power just as executing real or suspected collaborators is normal behaviour for an occupied people.
me: it is wrong for israel or any other nation to withhold medical care in exchange for collaboration. I don’t care if you think this is SOP for Irael or any other nation.
You: Human nature is what it is. Human nature is not what some think it ought to be or what we ought to aspire to or what we mistakenly think is the nature of brave, good, noble people like us as opposed to the brutish nature of cowardly, evil, ignoble people like those from whom we are stealing. Both Palestinians and Israelis are behaving according to human nature, just as the Nazis were and not surprisingly both commit what dispassionate observers interpret as atrocities.
Me: what you accuse israel of has nothing to do with your supposition that we are knuckle-draggers who dont know right from wrong or who choose wrong for our own purposes. that you compare israelis to nazis was never anything I thought you’d do.
you: In your replies too my comments you keep accusing me of saying things that I have not in fact said. You see that CM says X, and you think that X implies Y therefore CM is saying Y. However it may be that I do not think that X implies Y. Because many people who believe X believe that X implies Y does not mean that I believe that same thing.
me: huh?
you: Learn to distinguish things that people actually say from implications that you read into their speech. The implications arise in your mind because of your beliefs.
me: your speech? I read what you write. I have not heard a word you’ve said. If anything I may be reading you too literally. Now go stand in front or a mirror and repeat that line about “implications arise in your mind because of your beliefs” to yourself. smile when you do it. sell it.
you: Because most people take their beliefs from prepackaged sets – for example someone who opposes abortion probably supports the death penalty – it is tempting to assume that someone who asserts X would take his beliefs from a set that includes beliefs X and Y, but that may not be so. There do exist people whose opinions are not taken from the one of the few opinion sets from which most people choose, and I like to think that I am one of them.
me: maybe you take your information in pre-packaged sets. doesn’t mean everyone does. not everyone who is against abortion is also for the death penalty even if that’s what you assume. as for opinion sets… there is no such thing. everyone has an opinion. some folks have more than one that means there are billions of opinions about any topic you may choose.
my ideas about the situation in Israel is based in experience and fact. again, have you ever been there? know anyone who has? plan to go sometime in the future, do you? when you go there and see for yourself then we can talk. as long as you are justified that what you scan from a google search is accurate we really don’t have anything to talk about.
you: Killing most Germans and expelling the rest and turning Germany over to the Jews may not have been workable but it would have been just. The people paying for the crimes of antisemites would have been antisemites. Their is a difference between Christian antisemitism and Muslim/Arab antisemitism. Christian fear and hatred for Jews was never justified by anything Jews had actually done to Christians, Arab/Muslim/Palestinian antisemitism on the other hand is a predictable reaction to things that Israel has done to the Palestinians, namely murder and robbery with violence.
me: just? you think that killing and expelling Germans would have been just? where did you read this? in Convenient Theories For You Monthly?
there is no difference at all between christian anti-semitism and muslim anti-semitism. the end result are dead jews. btw, the grand mufti of jerusalem was a big fan of hitler’s.
See all comments on this post here:
sicilian,
If I had a dime for every troll that didn’t like me, I could stack them as high as the Chrysler Building (1,047 ft.). Boo freakin’ hoo, sport.
Buddha is Laughing:
I wasnt being snarky to Mr. Spindell. I agree with him on Israel. Some of the other posters seem to think that Israel and the Arab dictatorships are morally equivalent.
My apologies to Mr. Spindell if that is the way it came across.
Buddha is Laughing:
A dime is 1.35 mm in thickness and one inch is 25.4 mm so you have 225.77 dimes per foot
at 1,047 ft that would amount to 236,389 dimes or $23,639, not a very princely sum for Troll bashing. Better go get a job that pays better and that you are good at.
IS,
I’d love a hobby that payed over 20,000.
Gyges:
you don’t have one? I thought you were a musician. Dont you guys make the big bucks at parties and weddings?
Gary,
I can’t speak for anyone else, but it’s pretty seems to me that Sicilian is as interested in drumming up views for his website as he is in rational discussion. I would only recommend reading his blog if you’re interested in reading some violently onanistic rants. While that may just make him a pseudo-troll, it’s close enough for me.
Also, his views are pretty self contradictory, which makes him a target on a website full of critical thinkers.
IS,
I said hobby, I’m a professional Musician. My hobbies include: Fishing, Hunting, gathering, brewing beer, cooking, long walks on the beach. My vices include: enjoying the fruits of all my hobbies.
Buddha,
Your ignorance is continuously shown with every blog you write. Maybe if you read them like others do you would know how to give an intelligent retort.
When I read your earlier blog I was surprised over how informative it was considering that your original comment and all succeeding attempts at retort gave no indication that you possessed even a modicum of intelligence to come up with those insights.
But then you gave yourself away. You gave some wikipedia sites to refer to. At that point it became obvios that for the last few days you were “TROLLING” off wikikpedia to get some crib notes to make it appear as if you had some knowledge on the subject.
If you knew what you wrote today, 2 or 3 days ago why didn’t you say it? DUHHHH!!!!!
The whole psuedo-Palestinian argument was the basis of my argument from my first post. If you go back to read it or read any of my blogs about the Palestinian falsehood you will see that that has always been my position.
An intellectual midget such as yourself gave no indication that you ever had a position beyond the customary knee-jerk response.
Your posts are your own indictment. Now everyone will know that the next time you disappaer from a comment site for any extended period of time that you are researching off wikipedia so you can crib and then come back and impress all the sychophants who are mislead by your tag.
Buddha, ya right!!! Siddhartha would NOT be proud.
scilian 1:
most people here look up stuff to bolster their arguments. There are a few that are good original thinkers and are very interesting and thoughtful.
Keep dancing, monkey.
I’m laughing hysterically.
“My apologies to Mr. Spindell if that is the way it came across.”
IS,
No apologies needed, I understood what you were writing and didn’t take it as snark. Please call me Mike though, Mr. Spindell makes me feel my age.
Buddha,
You’re going to have to change your tagline to the “wikipedia cribster”. Because the wisdom and insight you try to impart with Buddha is obviously lacking. Siddhartha would not be proud to have you as one of his adhereants.
Your inferior comments prove you have nothing of insight untill you can go and plagerize some ideas off some internet website.
But Wkikpedia??!! Are you serious??!!
Any grade school student knows that wikipedia is the LAST place to EVER look for info. If the grade school’s student acedemic life depended on it even they know wikipedia is the last resource they would lose.
You’re so intellectually lazy if not outright ignorant that not only do you USE wikipedia, not only do you ADMIT to using wikipedia but you actually have the ignorance to advocate to others to look up not one but two wikipedia websites for info.
Are you kidding??!! Even your little disclaimer does NOT in any way absolve you of your absolute ignorance.
You have lost any and all credibility to comment on any topic. Now we all know that anything you say are the musings of a small mind!!!! HA, HA, HA!!!!!
You are the one who did it to yourself. You are the one who exposed your own use of wikipedia as a source. What a joke.
Please save us, I know you’re probably sitting by your computer pulling up all types of wikipedia source info. Don’t even bother because when you come back with some type of disertation on whatever we’ll all know you’re just regurgitating some wikipedia nonsense. You are unworthy to even have your voice heard.
Siddauthara had his own insights. He wasn’t so ignorant as to plagerize anything from anyone. Lose the tagline.
Hopefully all your little sychophants have discovered that you were nothing but a fraud.
Gyges:
Well, I did defend sicilian1 for the commentary up to and prior to my post, because everything I observed him say was coherent, measured and substantive.
I don\’t defend all the ad hominems and run-on commentary since then. Not on point, full of silliness and vitriole, and just lacking class.
If all he did was reign it in, stay on point, and be civil, he could be immune to the troll aspersion.
GWLawSchoolMom
What I see is that in some of your responses to my posts you have failed to notice that I was actually agreeing with you and reflexively counter-attacked as if I was saying the opposite of what I was in fact saying. For example:-
me: As you point out they have endured 1900 years of Christian bigotry. Some Christians might assert that the excesses of the holocaust have cured Christianity of antisemitism.
you: that would be nice it it were true. you can’t possibly think it is true, do you? not after that nice christian man shot and killed a guard at the holocaust museum, do you?
You have failed to notice that the extract of my post above which you quoted continues so that the full thing is:-
me:When I wrote that the Jews need a homeland I was not being sarcastic. As you point out they have endured 1900 years of Christian bigotry. Some Christians might assert that the excesses of the holocaust have cured Christianity of antisemitism. I as an ex-Christian atheist remain skeptical. What I see in the world is that the immunizing effect that the holocaust had against human rights abuses is wearing off and supporters of all kinds of prejudicial ~isms proudly march under the banner of being against the great evil of political correctness.
Many Jews now feel safe living in the USA, Australia, Europe and South America but it is understandable that many others do not. The fear generated by pogroms culminating in the holocaust does not wear off unless it is over many hundreds of years, and it is my opinion that a resurgence of vicious Christian Jew hatred is possible ……………….
What I am saying above is that I agree with you that it is not safe to assume that Christian anti-semitism is safely confined to the past.
Sicilian:
hey that’s my tag-line, I use Wiki all the time and the Huffington Post. Both those sights have in depth cogent information and they do very thorough research so that you know the information is correct and up to date.
Those are the only 2 I use because dog gone-it I cant seem to find any other sites that have material I agree with and that would be worthy of plagiarizing.
So actually I am the Wikihuff Cribster or maybe if you prefer the Huffingpedia Cribster.
So remember, any posts by me will not be my own thoughts but those I devine from either or both websites. I think there are multiple people that do that because a good many opinions sound like mine.
rofl
AY, you’re just too funny.
wikihuff cribster or Huffingpedia
Well as long as you admit ithat you don’t have an original thought because I think it’s safe to say that the only time you do seem to have an original thought is when you’ve plagerized an idea from another source.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Now if you’re views lean to the Huffington post side of things, fine.
But please, do NOT use wikipedia. Any acedemic will tell you that wikipedia is NOT an accepted source for credible material. If you use it don’t admit it.
SICILIAN:
dont you mean “cribbable material”?
Well you can rely on Wiki, at least for the Scientology portion. You cannot alter it. So it has to be so. So there and there.
Gary,
I do sincerely apologize for offending you with my latest posts. I did appreciate your prior support.
Your criticism was taken constructively and I most definitely see your point.
Not a defense but I went off a little bit not because I was insulted more by the ignorance of Buddha’s sychophants than even by Buddha’s own ignorance. I felt the need to point out the lack of credibility from a wikipedia source.
Again, I do apologize and your criyicism was taken without resentment.
sicilian:
why are you apologizing you did not call anyone a child molester, you had a difference of opinion about source material.
I think Wikipedia is fine for a lot of general knowledge but you must check it out if it is important.
Hearty debate is good for the society. Nothing wrong with an intellectual round house to the head.
Do you know the difference between “smart” and “intelligent”? Are you familiar with concept of varied standards of proof as appropriate to a forum may be supplemented with additional sources when required? Do you know that around these parts the regulars all know the difference between proper cites, “reference” and “general reference”? Are you capable of anything other than personal attacks? Is that the best you’ve got?
Rhetorical.
You should really move along now, little trollsy. You’re just besmirching the reputation of Sicily at this point.
Buddha,
Badda boom, badda bing
“I was insulted more by the ignorance of Buddha’s sychophants than even by Buddha’s own ignorance.”
sicilian 1,
As a shameless Buddha sycophant I take umbrage at you characterizing me as ignorant. I think your presence here is less to partake of the community and more to promote your own website. Incidentally, I notice at your website, which you subtitle “Expert opinion and commentary,” your offer no CV of any sort save that:
“I have lived an interesting and full life. Been there, done that, around the world and back and I don’t front.”
Well, I too believe that I’ve lived and interesting full life, been there done that, but except for fields I’ve actually worked in (which I do indicate within the particular post I’m claiming expertise)I don’t grandiosely proclaim my expert status. The use of “expert” occurs generally when someone wants to dazzle with a sobriquet, rather than make their case fully. Given your rather skimpily detailed CV, there really is no way that I can assess whether you qualify as an expert in anything, save for what you write.
Prior to assessing your writing though I think we should first deal with your reading comprehension. To wit: the wiki entries and the use of pseudo-Palestinians did not come from Buddha, it came from me. So you have been attacking the wrong person due to your inability to follow this thread properly. To me that bespeaks someone who in conversation doesn’t listen to the speaker, but rather spends that downtime thinking of their rebuttal. A poor way to learn and an even poorer way to discuss.
As too the Wiki links they were preceded with this statement from me:
“Below are two Wiki links on these issues. Being Wiki of course one has to meditate on its’ accuracy and lack of bias.Given my laptop situation I did the backup quick and dirty, though from my experiences and complete readings I think they are mostly valid and would be agreed to generally.”
I had opened that post alluding to the fact that my laptop access was then limited. So your Wiki aspersions were unfounded completely since I obviously understand Wiki’s reliability, or lack of same, and was up front about it.
As to your writing I have found it both here and on your website to be hyperbolic and purposely meant to incite. This seems to be a situation your are proud of, which leads me to question your ability to experience and absorb life. That is because to me the beginning of wisdom occurs when a person starts realizing that they don’t know everything. It gives one a certain humility about their certitudes. In particular regarding your support of Israel, on another thread on the ME I read your various posts and while I had much to agree with you on the situation, I pleaded with you to desist because the vitriol of your posts was to me actually harmful to the cause.
Finally, if you wish to trade barbs with, or attack anyone here it would be ever so helpful if you actually attacked the person making the statements. In this instance I found it rather disheartening that I was being attacked and the attacker didn’t even know my name. Egoist that I may be, even negative recognition, at least gives me the message that my stuff is being read. Attention is one of the prime human needs, as I think your blog and your writing here indicates. At least we are getting your name right.
The first rule of successful evolution is “Pay Attention.”
On the upside, there’s probably a Darwin Award in your future, Sicilian.
So you got that going for you.
Which is nice.
Mike S,
No one should ever be proud of being a shameless sychophant to anyone. Especially to someone so lacking of any insights as Buddha.
I admitedly jumped the gun when I saw Buddha’s name at the top of the post. In my desire to expose what little he had to offer I made a mistake.
As far as the article, it was very insightful and well thought out. That is what caused my initial confusion because I knew Buddha was incapable of coming even within throwing distance of something of that type.
I did like that article and from your previous posts I do NOT feel you get your source material. But as I said before, please do NOT promote a wiki web source even if you do use it. When people see that wiki source it eats into the credibility you have on the topic.
As for my CV, I didn’t feel that it was neccessary to give a long resume’ to try and give my credentials. Most of my “expert” knowledge on a subject is delivered in the body of my blogs. I do it that way because I want to make sure those who are reading one of my blogs knows where my “expert” opinion is coming from. Also I mentioned in my cv that most of what I comment on is from first hand experience. I’m sure people don’t care to read a year-by-year resume’ Like I said, if they read a specific blog then they see my credentials on the topic are placed there.
But just for you I will update my cv. Point well taken. That is a legitimate argument.
As for the “expert opinion” tag. It was done purposely because it is my “expert opinion” and it was also done to intetionally light a little fire under those who read it. Seeing how you reacted, my mission was accomplished.
If the pseudo-Palestinian reference came from you then I stand corrected. Kudo’s, it is a very clever term and if it was you who created it then I give you full credit and ownership and I mean that sincerely.
You:
bespeaks someone who in conversation doesn’t listen to the speaker, but rather spends that downtime thinking their rebuttal.
If you saw I qualified my attack by telling stating that the DISCLAIMER prior to the mention of wiki was NOT a sufficient excuse for promoting wiki.
I would hope you would honor what you accuse others of doing. I did in fact read the preceeding statement and I did acknowledge that in my post and I did then say that I did NOT feel that it was an excusable disclaimer. Go back and read the posts and you will see that I am telling the truth.
Yes, my writing IS purposely meant to incite. I will not deny that. I take many “politically incorrect” positions. I do NOT try to hide that. My style is not meant to sugar-coat. I’m going to say what’s on my mind whether anyone likes it or not. I MORE than WELCOME constructive criticism and in fact encourage it. If someone has a problem with something I said then they should feel free to rebut BUT they must stay on the topic at hand. Any dishonest attempts to confuse the issue will be addressed and dissected WITHOUT arguing for or against the red herring thrown into the argument.
I certainly do NOT know everything, my interesting life experiences taught me that BIG TIME. But that does not mean I can’t have a strong opinion that I feel willing to express as I see fit.
The vitriol in my posts are NOT unhelpful to the cause. I am asking everyone, especially the Arab/Muslims to accept the truth about their history since it is that distorted history on which they base all their gripes, terrorism, beefs, resentments and hurt feelings upon, to name a number of other things.
The international community has bent over backwards for the Arab/Muslims. My point will always be that the fact that the Arab/Muslims insist on the world accepting their distorted history as part of any and all “peace-processess” (sic?) is what is causing the problem. It should be the Arab/Muslims becoming more reasonable and humble and accepting that ABSOLUTELY every word out of their Prophets mouth was NOT the truth.
If they want to kill in the name of God, fine. Followers of all faiths have been doing it from the beginning of time. Obviously that does NOT make it right but you’ll never be able to stamp out fanaticism of any stripe. The problem exaccerbates itself when it’s based on an unequivocal distortion that not only have the Arab/Muslim world been brainwashed into believing but insist on the whole world believing and if they do not they deserve to die.
Please, this problem is very serious because Islam isn’t some “loony” sect confined to some outpost somewhere in the world with one messianic leader spewing all kinds of garbage. That kind of nonsense can be contained. But when you have a worldwide movement gaining more radicalized converts everyday then it becomes a big problem.
Again I apologize for not giving you the pseudo-Palestinian credit. Being an egoist in reference to that term is not something you should apologize for. If I came up with something so clever I would want the ownership of it also.
I also commend you in your honor because by insisting on credit for the psuedo-Palestinian term you fully exposed yourself to me and anyone else as the wikipedia promoter. I respect that sincerely.
I also congratulate you on your intuativeness (sic?) to be able to see my human needs for attention from reading my blogs. You have obviously visited my blog and read some articles. Your patronage is greatly appreciated
Buddha,
I know all about sources and references and I would NEVER be caught dead touting a wiki source NO matter my desperation.
As far as besmirching, Siddhartha is rolling over in his grave over the fraud you’re perpetrating with your tagline
You assume I value any assessment you have to offer concerning me or anything else, Sicilian. Yes, yes, it was sad when your little Christian propaganda scree bubble got burst and I made you look like the foolish little troll you are, but you should really get over it. You jumped in the deep water here. The water you drown in flows from your very own words and that must be a bitter taste but the more you malign me, the more you look like exactly what I say you are, Propaganda Troll. If you don’t want your boilerplate language turned against you, don’t use it or get better templates. Your choice. Just as it’s my choice to keep on laughing at you, oh blinded one. But you feel free to do whatever it is you think you are trying to accomplish. It’s not working out like you think.
sicilian 1,
Half hearted apology, but accepted conditionally. As far as Wiki goes, while aware of its flaws I don’t share your disdain. It can be useful for getting quick historical dates for instance. I have stated elsewhere, however, that I normally eschew quoting other material to back up my suppositions. I have an iconoclastic point of view informed by intensive reading and experience, that I am happy with and my being happy with it is what is important to me.
Yes I did make up pseudo-Palestinians years ago as a means of discussing the subject in terms everyone could understand and with the knowledge that the term “Palestinians” prior to 1967 denoted Israeli’s and this new nomenclature was instituted in a PR campaign to de-legitimize Israel.
Finally, I can’t help thinking that the only reason you are here is to promote your own blog. While that is of course a viable option for someone, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I’m here because I treasure this site and the opportunity it gives me to interact and exchange ideas with some very smart people, while in turn having my own ideas tested. I don’t mind being proven wrong, since that too adds to my knowledge of self and the world. You are here I think to incite and thereby drum up interest. Allowable, but it opens your writing up to questions of how much of the hyperbole is real.
Gary,
Well, we have different ideas of “coherent, measured and substantive,” but that’s to be expected. I never thought you were defending the abusive rants. I was just explaining why I considered him a pseudo-troll.
Mike S,
All my “hyperbole” is real. I’m all for debating topics with anyone. It’s the one who throw around dispersions like “troll” (Not you, I’ll give you your due for keeping things intelligent and mostly on topic).
It’s the “troll” crowd who ruin everything because they do not have the intelligence to debate the topics so they try to confuse the issue with personal attacks.
I’m not intentionally promoting my site but since I have a serious position on the topic, sometimes it’s easier to just make that reference than battle the personal attacks and off topic issues.
Buddha
I do NOT value anything you say either. I have only pointed out you’re continued lack of knowledge on the subject and how your personal attacks which was the first thing you did to respond to my original comment.
I have NEVER once defended Christianity. I have NOT promoted a Christian viewpoint. An atheist could see the hypocracy in the Arab/Muslim argument. No matter who or what you believe in an objective analysis will only allow an intelligent individual to see the fallacy that the Arab/Muslim argument is founded upon.
It is you who has let your personal bias’ cloud the issue. You are the one who continuously brings up Christianity. You will NOT drag me into that false argument because that is NOT what I’m talking about.
Once again, stay on topic. When you start pointing fingers with the “what about them” argument you are proving your ignorance in regards to argumentation. But that seems likely because most ignorants pull that rhetorical trick to try and protect their ignorance and promote their own views.
It’s funny how you try to transpose your reality on me. It is you who are exposed as the ignorant you are and drown in your own words every time you post a comment.
Your only defense for the Arab/Muslim viewpoint is to slam Christians. If you want to be an Arab/Muslim apologist then fine but bring something of substance to the table. Excusing the Arab/Muslim position by ripping Christianity does no service to your point of view.
But your inferior posts prove your ignorance on the topic so all you can do is try to take everyone’s eye off the ball. Any intelligent individual can read right through your tactics.
You are so blinded by your arrogance that you can not see how unknowledgable you really are. Or maybe that’s another of your rhetorical ploys to turn transpose your deficiencies on others
Buddha,
Your the one who continuously shows your ignorance by throwing Christianity into the debate as a strawman when I never brought up Christianity at all, let alone defend it.
Your rhetorical trick to transpose your deficiencies on others only further exposes your ignorance and inability to argue on topic.
Rave on, lunatic.
sicilian1 1, June 17, 2009 at 3:36 pm
as to Buddha,
****************************
If you don’t like his posts may I make a suggestion: “DO NOT READ THE DAMN THINGS.’ If your Voyeurism, is or becomes too compulsive turn your computer off. If you can’t not, not read his post then get your parents to install a block to the WordPress site. It can be done. If you cannot control your self call someone and tell you need help. You may not meet the definition of the McNaughton test but I am sure they will have nice people to help you rearrange your life.
The bottom line is we have enough Troll dribble and some infighting amongst us that we will gang upon stupid. And your dialogue is stupid. Do you have a pet? If so maybe it can sign you up for a version of America’s Funniest People Tricks. Because you are not too funny here.
You really should to learn when to walk away though. It’ll be better for your blood pressure.
Buddha Is Laughing 1, June 17, 2009 at 4:29 pm
You really should to learn when to walk away though. It’ll be better for your blood pressure.
******************************
You talking to me Buddha? lol. If so, I’ll leave you out too.
AY,
No, you stepped in front of that one. Your BP is fine.
T
you guys put the “fun” into dysfunctional.
We have a sword fight going on,
The Italian Stallion v. Laughing Green Man.
So far I think the Stallion has been gelded.
The point is that no one can refute my original claim of an Arab/Muslim/Palestinian fallacy.
Those that citicize with name-calling and personal attacks only do so because they lack the knowledge to debate the issue.
Silician1
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1469417/posts
I googled it up and this is the frame work that we can work with. Now what is the points that you disagree with on this link?
AY,
This site is a very sloppy history lesson with some clear falsehoods.
But I will debate it and hopefully set the record straight.
First off, I am NOT claiming the Jews have MORE right to the Land than the Arabs. Everybody sees the Arab criticism and automatically gets their “dander” up and gets all offensive and wants to make Zionist accusations.
My only position that to kill in the name of a lie and to promote that lie to turn the Arab/Muslim/Palestinians into a victim is dangerous.
The gentlman who wrote this title’s his article, with the fallacy tag then tells the lie Arafat has been disseminating since the PLO founding in 1964. This is the problem with Muslim/Arab revisionist history; It’s been SO successful.
The Palestines are NOT the ancient Canaanites. It is impossible for that to be true. Any honest student of history will tell anyone the same.
When Joshua led the Jews over the River Jordan to retake the Promised Land the Canaanites were slaughtered or otherwise assimilated into the Jewish culture or the surrounding cultures.
Did the Jews slaughter all the Canaanites? Maybe. Were the Canaanites assimilated into the Jewish culture? Probably. But what is true is that an indigenous Canaanite civilization disappeared from the earth somewhere B.C.E.
The Canaanite people could NOT have assimilated into any Arab culture because the Arabs were still nestled in Arabia at this point in history. There was NO such thing as Islam at this point as EVEN the Arabs were practicing polytheism.
Islam wasn’t invented untill some 1,800 years after the Jewish takeover of the Land. The Arabs did NOT even make their first incursions into the Middle East untill some 1,850 years after the Jewish takeover of the Land. There is NO credible Arab claim to Canaanite blood. As I said the Canaanites disappeared from civiliztion in ancient times. If any of them remained they did so only in pockets and most likely converted to Judaism. If there are any people with ancient Canaanite blood floating through their viens it is most likely Jewish people being that they were the immediate conquerers of the Canaanites and either slaughtered or converted the remaining inhabitants.
What is certain is that the Arab/Muslims can NOT claim Canaanite blood being that the Canaanite civiliztion had disappeared or otherwise assimilated into the surrounding peoples more than a millenium before Islam was invented or the Arab/Muslims ever made their way to the Land.
The people of the Land lived subject to whoever ruled the Land. After the Babylonian exile the Jews themselves NEVER had any soveriegnty in the Land. And for that matter NO one living there ever had any soveriegnty. The native peoples had disappeared, their civilization destroyed or assimilated into the surrounding cultures. Once the Jews destroyed the Cannanites there could NEVER be native claims to the Land by ANYBODY.
The Land passed back and forth between many different Empire’s and Kingdoms. The Crusades happened and the Land passed back and forth untill the Arabs remained in possession.
Lets skip to 1517 when the Ottoman Empire took possession of the Land. Although the Turks themselves were Muslim, they still oppressed their Arab/Muslim brothers forcing a Turkish nationalism on them many times. The Arabs chaffed under Ottoman rule.
Then during WWI thje Ottoman Empire sided with the Central powers. The Arabs dreaming of an exclusively ARAB state in the Middle East, under the leadership of the Hashemite tribe of Arabia conspired with the Brits to undermine the Ottoman Turks. The Great Arab Revolt orchestrated by “Lawrence of Arabia” was a blow to the Ottoman Empire.
Obviously WWI ended in defeat for the Central Powers and they were kicked out of the Middle East with the allies, mainly the Brits in control of the Land. The Brits ran the territories under a series of mandates. To pay off the Hashemite tribe they installed them in what became known as Iraq, Syria and Jordan. The Hashemites considered themselves the King of the Arab world, tracing bloodlines back to Mohammed.
Eventually the House of Saud from the land of the Nejd (sic?) took the land of the hejaz from the Hashemites and formed what became known as modern day Saudi Arabia in approx. 1932. Eventually the Hashemites lost Syria (Very quickly after the area was given to them) and Iraq (Many years after it’s formation.
Jordan, that’s the ancient Land everybody talks about. Well the Hashemite dynasty of Arabia was able to retain the Land of what would eventually be called present day Jordan but what was known then as Trans-Jordan.
Trans-Jordan was an Arab ONLY domain. All Palestinian Arabs were offered citezenship. So you see that what today is known as the Middle East is a MODERN invention. A Jordanian IS a MODERN invention. The people who the world calls Jordanians ARE in fact Palestinians.
So this Arab state encompassed about 75% of the Land. The Brits tried to give the Jews a home in what remained for many years with the Arabs puttig up a fight every time.
Then WWII hapened, the Holocaust and eventually the UN Partition Plan with a Jewish and Arab state in what remained of the Land. In 48′ the Jews declared there independence. The Arab/Muslim world told all the Palestinians in the territories to flee and that after the Jews were wiped out they could return. The Palestinian Arab/Muslims did as told and the Arabs attacked. The Jews beat them back with Jordan annexing the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip (Or visa-versa)
Two decades passed. Those Palestinians in those territories NEVER once cried for their soveriegnty. Their Arab “possessers of the territories NEVER once offered soveriegnty to them.
Then in 67′ after many warnings to the Arab/Muslim countries to back off, Israel attacked. The 6 day war ensued and the Jews took back the annexed territories, hence the occupied territories.
So what is the solution? Obviously a two-state solution. No party can claim native/soveriegn/indigenous rights to the Land so agreeing to coexist peacefully is the only way. The problem is that the Arab/Muslims won’t go for it. The Jews have offered land for peace on the condition the Arab/Muslim world acknowledge their statehood. The Arab/Muslims REFUSE that concession EVERY time.
It is this misinformation that the Arab/Muslim?Palestinians have native rights that I find so insulting.
I’m arguing from the position that NOBODY is going to live in “perfect harmony”, I think that history has proven that to be a valid assumption. So then lets look at the history. Each group certainly has arguable claims to the land. But the sad reality is that the Land has always been a Land of conquer since the Jews drove out the native Canaanite culture. The Arab/Muslims NEVER complained when they took the Land by military conquer from other peoples.
Granted the Jews were “given” the Land by the UN. Well, the Arab/Muslim world didn’t like it so they initiated the war in ’48 and again in 67′ not to mention all the terrorist actions in between and since.
So if the Arab/Muslims were ok with the Land being a Land of conquer then, then they should accept that the Jews conquered the Land to possess it now. Untill those fighting over the Land can let humanity reign and come to a peaceful existence the Land will always be a Land of conquer and whoever holds it last will be the owner.
My problem with the Arab/Muslims is their insistence on forcing the world to buy all their fabricated beefs. They have NO native claims to the Land. They are NOT an indigenous people. The refugee problem was created by the Arab/Muslim countries. Jordan could easily give the Palestinian “refugee’s” refuge. Citizenship in Jordan was offered to all Palestinian Muslims when Jordan was originally created. But if they did that they’d lose their victim status and would no longer be able to portray the Jews as the big bad guy. And that’s what this is really all about, claiming victimhood, branding the other side as evil then getting yourself sympathy on the international stage.
The Arab/Muslims insult the intelligence of everyone out there by trying to claim Abraham as their own which in turn in their minds makes them the “true” followers of God.
Ok, Abraham lived in the Mesopotamian region. There is little evidence he ever made his way down to Arabia. Undoubtedly Abraham was a Hebrew. His son Ishmael was born of his Egyptian concubine. Ishmael the father of the “Ishmaelites” was of mixed Hebrew and Egyptian heritage. Abraham deposited Ishmael and his mother Hagar just outside the Promised Land in Haran. NOT in Arabia. Abraham was still in contact with Ishmael during his life. Ishmael probably didn’t even make his way down to Arabia.Did Ishmael’s decsendants make their way into Arabia? Yes, but not untill decades after Ishmael died.
Can all these historical Biblical figures and the details of their lives be proven beyond doubt? NO., I do concede that. But historically speaking the monnotheistic faith that is known as Judaism was born in the mesopotamian region. NOT Arabia. Arabs were still practicing polytheism centuries after the birth of Christianity.
Can the Arabs/Muslims make any first right or native claims to the Land? Absolutely NOT.
I only constantly rant about this because it is an historical fabrication that we’re all forced to believe. We all have to buy this revisionist history about the Land, Abraham and God. We are forced to argue from an invalid starting point.
If the Arabs were like look, ‘We believe in the “Abrahamic” God too, we just have some theological and doctrinal disagreements with the other practitioners of this God so we’re gonna go off and do our thing’, that would be fine.
Instead we get terrorism, arrogance, indignace, stubborness and an insistence that the world submit to their beliefs.
That website that was pulled up was right only by the title of the article. The body was a complete mess with sloppily done research. It’s these inaccuracies that are the real danger.
It is fine if any one disagree’s with my conclusions. No problem, we aren’t robots and we all bring different outlooks to things. BUT the historical facts I presented ARE in fact ACCURATE. What you conclude from those facts is your business just as mine are mine.
I know Mike S doesn’t like me promoting my blog but sometimes I do so I don’t have to write these long disertations. I stand behind the facts and the conclusions I draw are mine alone
sicilian 1,
You actually can make some decent points once you skip the hyperbole. I don’t care whether you promote your blog. What bothered me was the anti-Muslim diatribes which I feel are not helpful and the fact that you started a flame war with the wrong person (on all levels).
As to your response to Mr. Hogan’s article I agree. Much as I as a Jew wish the Exodus to be real there is little historical evidence that proves it. Secondly, Mr. Hogan’s specific dating of it to the time of Ramses II is very much in dispute. This is just one of the problems in Mr. Hogan’s essay. The problem in general is that the archaeological evidence for the whole area is still in the developmental stage and Egypt’s Archaeology, perhaps the most important of all, is controlled by Mr. Hawass, who is an agent of the State and therefore works to present everything on ancient Egypt into the best political light for the current regime.
In general I agree with much of what you wrote historically.
Your over-the-top criticism of Islam though is uncalled for
as a generality, since the real problem is religious fundamentalism of any religious stripe. If the Fundamentalist Christian’s took control of the US today, for
instance, their actions towards women would be just as repressive save perhaps for the veil. The ME problems really stem from the years of colonialism and the vicissitudes of the Cold War.
There is also an attitude there of victimization by the West.
It has always struck me that the Crusades (which indeed were horrible)are viewed as the “crime” of the Christian West. Yet the fact of Islam’s being spread by the sword, four hundred year earlier, to Europe is forgotten. As you also described the Ottoman Empire, Islamic Turks, controlled had hegemony over the whole area up until WW1. While not Arabs, they certainly were Muslims.
As to your allusions in passing as to why many of these myths hold such strength, I believe partly it is because the image of strong Jews bothers some people, who would rather see them as victims. Arab PR has done a good job of portraying the pseudo-Palestinian’s victimhood, when the issue is far more complex. The sympathy on the left arose as an offshoot of the USSR siding with the Arabs vs. Israel to vex the US and in their own attempt to get to the oil. The whole web is tangled beyond belief.
The way to cut the Gordian Knot is indeed the two state solution. Unfortunately, the Israeli’s, shell shocked from years of constant strife, have voted in scoundrels like Netanyahu and thugs like Begin. Their intransigence, fuel by
the minority of Jewish Fundamentalists has made a bad situation even more difficult.
Mike,
You said, “You actually can make some decent points once you skip the hyperbole. I don’t care whether you promote your blog. What bothered me was the anti-Muslim diatribes which I feel are not helpful and the fact that you started a flame war with the wrong person (on all levels).”
I’ll agree with that.
I also agree with the bulk of what you said on the two-state solution even though (as you well know) we get there via different logics. I was pleased to see Bibi actually have the words come out of his mouth in the last week. His eventually addressing the issue was never in question, but I was surprised at how quick he came to it considering his hawkish record. It’s a sign he’s getting pressure to moderate from somewhere. The efficacy of that pressure remains to be seen.
Mike Spindel:
Why are Begin and Netanyahu scoundrels? From my perspective they are/were concerned for the future of Israel and for her continued existence. They faced much opposition from all corners of the world about the creation of Israel, let alone her survival.
Israel is a moral state and has a moral right to exist. How can one who considers the continuation of the state of Israel to be moral a scoundrel?
I know Begin was part of Irgund (sp?) but was that wrong, supporting the creation of a moral state amidst despotism? Was Washington a scoundrel, was Nathan Hale a thug? Do the people of Israel enjoy life as a free people? People that believe in freedom and liberty are neither scoundrels nor thugs.
A thug is someone like Lenin or Saddam, or Assad, or the mullahs in Iran. They suppress freedom and liberty and believe in the primacy of the state over the individual.
Bebe and Begin said liberty or death, and lived for Israels right to exist. If they are scoundrels and thugs then they are in good company-Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hale, Henry, et. al.
I’ll chime in and say thanks to everyone that utilizing this site for the exchange of free ideals and not a site for personal nasty attacks. Silcian1, Mike and Buddha the exchange of ideals is and was informative.
Sometime it is easier to work within a conceptually defined ideal and explore what we agree with and not and seek some commonality of purpose rather than disproportions that need a Richter Scale to see where the fault lies.
“I was pleased to see Bibi actually have the words come out of his mouth in the last week.”
Buddha,
Believe it or not I was quite displeased with Bibi’s statement, although it did represent some progress. The reason I was displeased was his insistence on a de-militarized pseudo-Palestinian State, which I think is unworkable and his refusal to state that the settlement building would cease. I think his movement represents pressure from the US. Bibi is truly between a rock and a hard place because of his coalition support from Avigdor Lieberman (the settler’s friend and protector) and from the fundamentalist Israeli’s. If he loses that support his position becomes untenable.
The halting and roll back of West Banks settlements is an obvious need for peace so I won’t comment on that further. The de-militarized State though is unreasonable given the realities of the area and I think held to to purposely make things hard. It could be though, looked in the best light, as part of a negotiation strategy and it well might be, I just don’t trust Bibi.
So far to me this is something that President Obama is doing right and the AIPAC consternation with his Egyptian speech is proof.
Mike,
I understand your displeasure at Bibi’s qualifications and agree they are unworkable. But baby steps are still steps no matter how taxing they can be to one’s sense of optimism. Or so I keep telling myself.
IS,
Fair questions, let me give you my reasoning.
The Irgun was a pre-State terrorist organization that struck out on its own and wouldn’t form a unified from with
David Ben Gurion. The Irgun were followers of Ze’ev (Vladimir) Jabotinsky, a right wing person who was in league with two other immoderates and opposed Chaim Weitzman’s vision. Incidentally, Netanyahu’s father and Grandfather followed Jabotinsky. They were not about establishing a “moral state,” they were for tactics like blowing up the King David Hotel, which was a similar terrorism to that which Israel faced. Their militancy actually made establishing a state harder.
Netanyahu, is a hard line right winger who’s support comes from the settler’s and the religious fundamentalists. His previous government was an abject failure and characterized by corruption. His vision for Israel is similar to Reagan’s and the Bushes for the US.
As a Jew and like the Hebrew National commercial I believe that Israel should answer to a higher authority. As a Deist of course I’m not certain if God is listening. That “higher
authority” though is at the very least at the heart of Jewish belief. the two prongs of it are Rabbi Hillel’s “Do
unto others……” formulation and the concept of Tikkun Olan, the healing of the world. Netanyahu, Begin and that ilk are essentially nationalistic corporatists. They had and have limited and selfish vision. Their support by the Fundamentalist religionists tries to ensure that the vast majority of Israeli’s will be controlled by religious fanatics.
Mike.
There is no such thing as a moral state. All states are amoral and commit atrocities to a lesser or greater extent. My definition of a psychopath is an individual who acts as a nation.
The fact is nations always have interests that are too important to allow actions in support of them to be constrained by moral issues. The protection of the morality of citizens of a state does not extend to that state’s enemies.
Carlyle Moulton:
one hopes you never achieve a position of authority in whatever country you may live.
Any state that proclaims the value of an individual life and strives to protect the individual is a moral state.
Sicilian,
Assuming your dates and info is correct (although I will point out again that you’re arguing that one people forcing other’s to accept their holy book as historical fact is wrong, and then taking another holy book and assuming it is historical fact). How long do a people have to live someplace before they have a claim to the land as natives?
Mike S,
Your criticisms about my hyperbole are well taken and I do NOT deny them. I just can NOT accept the Arab/Muslim version of history.
I completely agree with the seond to last to paragraph in your post that was left immediately following my post.
You are obviously very knowledgable about the topic and lend an honest and very respectful response.
Thank you for your participation and being able to see the forrest through the trees as to what I was trying to say.
Ay’
I also want to thank you for bringing the conversation back to an intelligent exchange of words and ideas.
It had gone off the deep-end, I myself got caught-up in trying to one up, so you did a very good thing.
Sometimes cooloer heads must prevail.
Again, thank you.
Gyges,
My dates are in fact correct. Many have argued my conclusions and I respect that but the historical accuracy of my writing is on point.
I do not assume any historical book to be fact. Is the Hebrew Bible 100% accurate? Probably not.
But what is a fact is that Islam as well as Christianity are branches of Judaism. They all believe in the “Abrahamic” God. Whether the Jewish narrative is real or nothing more than allegory is NOT the issue because what is undeniable and acknowledged by even a secular student of history is that Judaism was being practiced milleniums before Mohammed even created Islam. The insult to the world’s intelligence is that Muslims expect everyone to believe that it was in fact Islam what Abraham was practicing and that it was the Jews who stole the faith and corrupted the Bible. THE whole “reason” for Mohammed was to “set the record” straight and take back what the Jews first and the Christians later corrupted. Now Mohammed was successful in getting many to buy that (Mainly by force I might add) but the historical record does NOT support that in the slightest.
However you view the Jews, like them or not sympathize or hate. It is a FACT that they birthed what are today considered the 3 masjor Western religions. It is the Christians and then later the Muslims who grew from the Jewish root.
All these Arab/Muslim first right claims do NOT hold up.
Who are the native people? The Canaanites. But they’ve been lost to history so no one is native any more which begs the question, why can’t they peaceably live side-by-side?
Sicilian,
I asked a different question than the one you answered. I got your point a long time ago. Although I don’t see what some of what you say has to do with anything. Assuming there was a real Abraham he wouldn’t have practiced any form of Judism modern Jews would recognize. Remember, the texts as we know them all came into form after the Babylonian exile, which would have had a huge effect on the religious practices of the captive people. (For instance: The creation story in Genesis is generally regarded to be an adaptation of the Babylonian creation story). It’s insulting to anyone’s intelligence to assume otherwise.
The point I was hoping to get you to address is this: Human history is one wave of emigration after another. Some emigrations displaced people that were already living there (I doubt btw that the Canaanites were the VERY FIRST people to settle that land). Aside from the Nile Valley humanity is native to nowhere.
So taking that into mind, how long do a people have to live in a land before they can be considered natives? Are the modern Italians natives, or should they have no claim on the land because they aren’t Etruscan?
Sicilian,
I just can’t let you get away with saying you don’t use the Bible as a historical source.
From earlier “If you had any clue you’d know we ALL have a connection to Abraham through the bloodlines of Noah’s sons. DUH!” and “When Joshua led the Jews over the River Jordan to retake the Promised Land the Canaanites were slaughtered or otherwise assimilated into the Jewish culture or the surrounding cultures.”
It’s the use of “Joshua led” that gives it away.
Sicilian,
Excuse me: “…That you don’t use the Bible for as a factual source…”
sicilian writes: Trans-Jordan was an Arab ONLY domain.
Jordan is a Hashemits kingdom, not arab.
that’s the most glaring misstatement you’ve made just today.
want to make more friends? present your facts in a logical and respectful way.
do the same with any lies and/or propaganda.
using CAPS for emphasis is shouting at people. we didn’t like it when we were kids and that mean old guy on the corner shouted at us for riding our bikes too close to his house. we don’t like it when you do it either.
Mike S writes: Unfortunately, the Israeli’s, shell shocked from years of constant strife, have voted in scoundrels like Netanyahu and thugs like Begin. Their intransigence, fuel by
the minority of Jewish Fundamentalists has made a bad situation even more difficult.
me: even Netanyahu is starting to talk of a two-state solution.
Excuse me again: “…for a…” I blame my dogs.
sicilian1 as to Ay’
I also want to thank you for bringing the conversation back to an intelligent exchange of words and ideas.
It had gone off the deep-end, I myself got caught-up in trying to one up, so you did a very good thing.
Sometimes cooloer heads must prevail.
Again, thank you.
*******************************
I will assure you, I have had my rants. You are new here and so am I sorta,. The people here are fairly smart and very intelligent. I say fairly smart because, we all lose our cools occasionally. The smart ones don’t.
If you do not understand what someone is saying, ask. They will tell you and many people will tell you more info than you want to know. If you do not agree with someone either comment on it or don’t. Please do not make it personal. We all can be smucks and I the largest of them all.
Just blame it on AY, if something goes wrong. Because I did it, or thought about doing it, or would have done it, or am in the process of getting ready to do it.
We try and be civil here and if someone is uncivil, I have been known to rip heads off and defecate in extruding portion and not kindly.
Good luck and stay around even though, you nor I ever could be an original. But we are originals.
Gyges,
Ok we won’t use the Bible as a credible source.
Fine.
Do the Jews practice a recognizable form of the faith “Abraham” practiced? NO.
Are the “Peoples of Abraham” which were people from the Mesopotamian region practicing a faith? Yes. Did those “peoples” at some point practice a monotheism that can be arguably traced back to being that which spawned what would eventually become accepted to be Judaism? Yes. Did that “faith” whatever it was preceed both Christianity and Islam? Yes. Is it an accepted fact that Christianity and Islam were spawned from whatever it was that originated to eventually become known as Judaism? Yes.
Whether Abraham was real or not is not my claim and I don’t care. BUT the Muslims claim that he was and that what he was practicing was their Arab/Muslim faith. You see the problem with their whole argument lies not so much in that they have some disagreements over what the Jews and Christians teach theologically because if that were so then I could give them the benefit of the doubt. I could even listen to their rationalizations for killing in God’s name. It is the complete distortion of the historical record that is so insulting.
Abraham, Joshua, Moses ?????? Did they exist?? I do not know and I do not care. Whoever these people were that started a civilization and practiced a faith that eventually became what we call Judaism originated in Mesopotamia NOT Arabia. So whoever Abraham is and whatever faith it was he practiced can NOT be revised to be given an Arab/Muslim ownership.
Agreed, there are NO native peoples surviving in the world today. That is absolutely true. AND that IS MY point EXACTLY.The Jews do NOT hold native rights. BUT NIETHER do the Palestinian/Arab/Muslims. That is what I said.
My question becomes then why, if nobody can claim native/soveriegn/indigenous rights, why can’t they all come to a peaceful agreement?
The Arab/Muslim/Palestinians lose credibility when they refer to those native/soveriegn/indigenous/Arab/Muslim claims as justification for fighting?
Why can not Jews move into the territory? They lived there all throughout time next to the Arab/Muslims. What is SO exclusive to the Land to the Arab/Muslims? Would the Arab/Muslim/Palestinians raise a ruckus if a bunch of Mormons or Buddhists or 7th day adventists decided they wanted to make a home in that land? If a Palestinian wanted to move to another country he might find himself nieghbors with any number of different religious worshipres, why is that Land so exclusive to them? The individuals that were originally displaced back in ’48 have probably since passed this earth. In that time the Jews have repeatedly offered land for peace. The bordering Arab/Muslim nations could have long since solved the refugee problem that they created when they attacked in ’48 by giving those refugee’s citizenship as was offered by Jordan to all Arab/Muslim/Palestinians when Trans-Jordan was created. After all, Jordanians are really Arab/Muslim/Palestinians themselves so why not take in there brothers?
Why does the Land have to be exclusive? As I said in an ealier post, right or wrong, the Arab/Muslim population NEVER once cried when they took the Land by Military force so why should they cry now that the Jews have held the Lansd by military force.
Is that humane? No. But is it humane to stubbornly let a past resentment dictate your stance on a present issue? I would say no. So why can’t there be a two-state solution.
GWLAw School MOM
The HASHEMITE dynasty IS an ARAB tribe. Jordan was created by the Brits after WWI and given to the Hashemite dynasty of Arabia as a kingdom for their support in leading the Great Arab Revolt of 1916 that helped defeat the Ottoman Empire.
Jordan which was part of the so-called Promised Land was given to the Hashemite’s as an ARAB-ONLY territory. The rest of the Land which housed Jews and Muslims (Both being Palestinians) was kept in limbo for the time being as the world tried to figure out a two-state solution.
I hope you already passed your history pre-requisites because you need a refresher course on the Hashem’s.
The hashem’s were an Arabic tribe that traced their roots to the prophet Mohammed. Throughout history the Hashemite’s battled for control over who would be called the caliph which eventually led to the sunni, shia split.The Hashemite tribe ruled land of the Hejaz which included the Holy sites of Mecca and Medina.
By the time of WWI the “Arab” lands were controlled by the Ottoman Empire. The Hashemite Dynasty desired to rule a unified Arab kingdom. Sharif Hussein bin Ali, Emir of Mecca and King of the Arab lands conspired with the Brits to lead the Great Arab Revolt.
After the war the Brits renegged on their promise to install the Hashem’s as Kings of a unified Arab land. Instead the Middle East was carved up with the Modern borders we recognize. The Hashem’s were installed as kings in Jordan, Syria(which they lost quickly) and Iraq (which they lost decades later. In the Arabian lands the Hahem’s were overthrown bu the Saud’s from the land of the Nejd. The House of Saud unified the Arabian territories to create what is today modern Saudi Arabia.
THAT IS A FACT!!!!!
The Hashem’s ARE NOT Jordanian which as you can conclude is a modern invention like all the recognized state’s in the Middle East. The Jordanian population is mainly Palestinian ruled by an Arab minority, the Hashem’s
Silician,
Actually, we’re not in agreement that there are no “native peoples” anymore. I just wanted to know what YOU define as a native people.
I don’t have a specific number of years or generations for when a population becomes native to an area, but I do believe it’s possible. Furthermore, I don’t think that it matters all that much to this discussion.
What I was hoping to get you to recognize is your own extreme bias and inconstancy. You “don’t care” about if the Jewish religious rationals are historically accurate or not, but you DO care that the Muslim aren’t. As a matter of fact, you obsess over the matter. You claim to not be “putting one religion above the others” and that is true, you’re placing one below the others. While you’ve since toned down the language, it’s been apparent from the very beginning that all you came here to do was to bash Muslims (using the actions of a subset to speak for the whole). What I find most revealing is that the reason for the killing was purely political, yet your first words were “That story is outrageous! I’m glad you posted it. It’s amazing how deep is the religious fanatasism of these Muslims. If anyone studies history they become amazed at the distortion that is Islam.”
Why should we spend any more time debating a trivial group of nomadic desert dwellers whose main claims to fame are less what they did or do, but rather that three of the world’s greatest delusions originated there, and the fact that they sit directly above millions of pounds of decayed and decaying animal and vegetative compost that burns well. That no group has a monopoly on all of this oil seems to cause these living anachronisms great consternation, and it appears obvious to some that they would destroy themselves– and everyone else in the world– in a futile attempt to impose their will upon their neighbors. They get too much press, money, and discussion from the rest of us, and pose more of a nuisance than a curiosity. Call me when they evolve out of the 12th Century.
Gyges,
Ok ALL religions ARE a FAIRY-TALE. NO problem. I will concede.
It’s the Arab/Muslims insistence that the world believes and buys everything they claim about their fairy-tale.
And their insistence on stealing ownership of everything about the original fairy-tale.
They weren’t the first authors of the fairy-tale. They stole the story and then base everything about their identity on a belief that somebody else stole a story that that somebody else in truth was the original author of.
They stole the Jews fairy-tale and then want to kill the Jews because the Jews won’t concede to the fabrication that the Arab/Muslims were the ones who wrote the fairy-tale.
Mespo,
You certainly did put it all in perspective.
I only continue to comment to ensure that the historical record remains straight no matter the personal conclusions.
Yes, the ONLY reason the Arab/Muslim world is catered to is because of the fact they sit on the oil.
If that wasn’t the case the world would leave them alone, safe to continue believing in their fairy-tale. Because that’s all the credit they would get. Only the oil issue forces the world to grant them legitimacy.
Well Sicilian1
Why do you think Bush and Cheney had to keep Hugo upset? Hugo used to account for more than 25 per cent of all imported oil. Pick a fight and his side holds the reserves. So Mid East Oil prices sky rocket and the Bush and Cheneys of the world get richer.
Mespo, buddha et al.
I went to wrodpress to register so I could get an avatar. I want to be cool like you dudes. Kinda like that playing card in the spokes. Then your parent finds out and you get whipped.
I did sign up and it said my name was used. alas what to do?
sicilian
the reputation you have around here, which is not great is only compounded when you use all CAPS which the the cyber equivalent of shouting.
keep it up and soon no one will respond to you
or not.
AY,
You may have to make a nick shift. It’s no problem. Just announce you are changing your ID with your current one then immediately repost identifying yourself as AY in his new incarnation as a courtesy to the Prof. if someone challenges your ID as the Poster Formerly Known As AY. Otherwise? You’ll just have to be bland ol’ blank. There is precedent. I changed to BIL after initially posting with another ID shortly before I added my avatar. I finally gave in after getting jealous of mespo’s natty Cicero.
“Why should we spend any more time debating a trivial group of nomadic desert dwellers whose main claims to fame are less what they did or do, but rather that three of the world’s greatest delusions originated there, and the fact that they sit directly above millions of pounds of decayed and decaying animal and vegetative compost that burns well.”
Mespo,
How dare you burst my rhetorical balloon just when I was starting to get warmed up? Too bad for you, you’re going to miss my exciting invective, brilliant analysis, cogent history and red faced bluster. It would have been such fun for all of us…..wouldn’t it. There you go again playing the spoilsport and injecting rationality into the discussion….and much, much
worse…..perspective.
Mike,
I’m not being critical, but you do realize you could have said that all by asking mespo if he was “out of his Vulcan mind?” I’m just sayin’ . . . he is kind of our very own Italian Spock.
gwlawschoolmom,
SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE hashem’s BEING arabs AND NOT
jordanians. I THINK YOU MADE IT obvious THAT you DID not KNOW THAT WHAT IS today KNOWN AS jordan (originally trans-jordan) WAS A MODERN INVENTION BY THE brits after wwI.
YOU CAN not DENY you SAID:
“JORDAN IS A HASHEMITE KINGDOM NOT ARAB”
are you serious? YOU must BONE UP ON YOUR HISTORY BEFORE YOU TRY TO CAST SOMEONE ELSE AS IGNORANT. your own words have indicted you.
QUESTION MY CONCLUSIONS. BUT AS I WILL ALWAYS MAINTAIN, THE HISTORY UPON WHICH I DISCUSS is completely accurate.
REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOUR DISCUSSING THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE FUTURE.
ONCE AGAIN, the hashemite’s are an ancient arabian tribe with bloodlines connecting them to mohammed.
AY,
Bush/Cheney are in the the Middle East for money money and oil.
That will always be the story. And that oil and who can get their hands on it’s control is the ONLY reason why the region remains relative and the world must tip-toe around the players sitting on top of those reserves,
Agreed. I think?
“but you do realize you could have said that all by asking mespo if he was “out of his Vulcan mind?”
Buddha,
When do I ever use 5 words, when I could use 66 instead? Pity my family and friends who have to put up with me and manage not to snicker to my face. I’m just a voluble old gasbag, in more ways than one, but at least I’m cute and friendly, that’s my saving grace.
See that was 56 words instead of: “Buddha, you’re right.LOL”
roflmao
sicillian 1,
Talk about voluble, you are even more wordy than me and wrong if you think GWLSM doesn’t know about the ME.
Mike S/Buddha:
“I’m not being critical, but you do realize you could have said that all by asking mespo if he was “out of his Vulcan mind?” I’m just sayin’ . . . he is kind of our very own Italian Spock.”
**********
I don’t ever want to miss out on either of your analyses or comments, but this topic seems like the Gordian Knot to me. I await salient thoughts on other topics.
Lunghi in tensione & prosperano!
sicilian 1:
“Mespo,
“You certainly did put it all in perspective.”
**************
Turley taught me. Somewhere between “The Producers,” Happy Goats, and “The Caine Mutiny” I finally figured it out. Must have been the strawberries!
Mike S,
Thank you for acknowledging that I am voluable and wordy. I try to be.
But tell me don’t you think it’s kind of funny that GWLSM was trying to call me out by claiming that, ‘Hashem’s are Jordan’s not Arabs’, when she didn’t even know the simple fact of the history of the Hashemite tribe?
Sicilian writes: (actually shrieks) SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE hashem’s BEING arabs AND NOT
jordanians. I THINK YOU MADE IT obvious THAT you DID not KNOW THAT WHAT IS today KNOWN AS jordan (originally trans-jordan) WAS A MODERN INVENTION BY THE brits after wwI.
I do not respond to children who have temper tantrums. when you can get control of that nasty anger problem of yours and behave in a civilized way perhaps I will respond.
gwlawschoolmom,
your ATTEMPTS TO TRY TO CHANGE THE ISSUE WILL not WORK.
you THOUGHT you WERE EXPOSING MY IGNORANCE WHEN IN FACT YOUR WORDS EXPOSED your OWN IGNORANCE.
you WERE THE ONE WHO STATED THE INACCURACY THAT hashem’s were jordanian not arab. THAT WAS you WHO SAID THAT!!! you!!!!
you HAVE no DEFENSE BECAUSE THAT IS absolutely WRONG!!!!THERE IS no DEBATE AND you KNOW IT. THAT IS WHY you TRY TO CHANGE THE ISSUE TO ME. GO AHEAD SAY WHATEVER you WANT ABOUT ME. OK I CONCEDE I AM A CHILD, I AM IMMATURE. OK you ARE RIGHT. NO DEBATE. you WIN ON THAT ACCOUNT. BUT ONE THING I do KNOW AND THAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE hashemite dynasty. I DO not SPEAK INACCURACIES AND THINK I’M GAINING POINTS. THAT WOULD CLEARLY BE you.
WHY DON’T YOU JUST ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG BECAUSE IF you DID I WOULD STOP. AFTER ALL, I ADMITTED TO you THAT I WAS A CHILD AND IMMATURE. C’MON JUST ADMIT THAT YOU WERE IGNORANT TO THE FACTS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THEhashemite’s and obviously jordan since you thought the hashemite’s were jordanians when in fact there is really no such thing being that jordan was carved off of the land by the brits to create a kingdom for the arabian tribe, the hashem’s. PLEASE JUST ADMIT IT SO I CAN GET ON WITH MY LIFE AND STOP HAVING TO ANSWER YOUR EVERY RETORT TO EXPOSE YOUR IGNORANCE ON THE TOPIC. please!!!!!! I actually have things to do and my family is getting upset that I am replying to your every post. please!!!!! admit you were wrong about the hashem’s. my ego demands it!!!!
I’m SURE THERE IS STUFF YOU’RE KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT THAT I COULD LEARN FROM YOU. IT OBVIOUSLY IS not MIDDLE EASTERN HISTORY.
I JUST hope THAT WHEN you GRADUATE LAW SCHOOL AND BECOME A PRACTICING ATTORNEY you DO better leg-work FOR YOUR CLIENTS TO SAVE YOURSELF FROM DISBARMENT
“I’d like to thank Gabby Johnson for that fine display authentic frontier gibberish.”
sicilian screams: WHY DON’T YOU JUST ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG BECAUSE IF you DID I WOULD STOP. AFTER ALL, I ADMITTED TO you THAT I WAS A CHILD AND IMMATURE. C’MON JUST ADMIT THAT YOU WERE IGNORANT TO THE FACTS ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THEhashemite’s and obviously jordan since you thought the hashemite’s were jordanians when in fact there is really no such thing being that jordan was carved off of the land by the brits to create a kingdom for the arabian tribe, the hashem’s. PLEASE JUST ADMIT IT SO I CAN GET ON WITH MY LIFE AND STOP HAVING TO ANSWER YOUR EVERY RETORT TO EXPOSE YOUR IGNORANCE ON THE TOPIC. please!!!!!! I actually have things to do and my family is getting upset that I am replying to your every post. please!!!!! admit you were wrong about the hashem’s. my ego demands it!!!!
me: your ego demands it? your ego will have to learn some manners before I respond to anything you direct my way.
grow up. get control of that nasty temper of yours. learn the art of civilized discourse. whether you get on with your life or not isn’t my problem, it is your problem.
if your family is that bothered by your need to respond to me, my advice is this: find another hobby, one that is not as disruptive to your life and one that you clear with your family prior to forming an fixation on someone you don’t know and who does not return your feelings. maybe woodworking. or cake baking.
Buddha,
You owe me a beer, keyboard and paper-towel I had to use to clean the first off the second. Specifically, a Cinder Cone Red, Deschute’s Seasonal ale, and one my favorite summer beers.
Sicilian 1:
these people are totaly clueless when it comes to Arabs, Arab Culture and Islam. I wouldnt waste my time arguing with them, well actually I did but even an Arab Islamic intellectual agrees with me.
Most of these people look at life through the rose colored glasses of the left, they will argue with you despite the evidence of their own eyes. They see Muslims decapitating helpless people on TV, they see airliners crashed into buildings, they see women being treated like cattle, they see chaos in the Islamic world and they call me a bigot and a racist because I had the temerity to believe there is a fundamental flaw with Islam. You want proof look around you and read some of the writings by Ibrahim Al-Buleihi. There is your proof.
“Following are excerpts from an interview with Saudi Shura Council member Ibrahim Al-Buleihi, which aired on Channel 1, Saudi TV, on May 23, 2006.
Interviewer: Some elements in Arab and Muslim societies have intensified the hostility towards Arabs and Muslims, through their acts of violence and terrorism, to the point that we see images of slaughtering the other – American or European – live on TV.
Ibrahim Al-Buleihi: In my opinion, we should not describe these people as deviant. This is the product of our culture.
[...]
They are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live, and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible.
[...]
There is a fundamental flaw in our culture that leads to this behavior. This ideology, which was advocated by Sayyid Qutb, and which is implemented by those who kill innocent people – women, children, and people who have done nothing wrong – did not emerge out of thin air, but is the product of this culture. This is a one-dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny – tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family, and in everything.
[...]
The “other” does not have to be someone completely different. When we disagree with someone, even over minor iussues regarding ritual purity, we regard him as the “other,” we boycott him, we excommunicate him, defame him, level accusations at him, and so on.”
gwlawschoolmom
PLEASE ADMIT YOUR ATTEMPT TO EXPOSE MY IGNORANCE ON THE TOPIC IN FACT EXPOSED YOUR IGNORANCE>
WON’T YOUR EGO ALLOW YOU TO DO? IF NOT WHY? CAN”T YOU JUST ADMIT YOU DIDN”T KNOW? YOUR OWN WORDS ARE YOUR INDICTMENT.
YOUR CONTINUED ATTEMPTS TO TRY TO TURN THE ISSUE ABOUT ME IS NOT THE REAL ARGUMENT. IT’s THAT YOU SIT BY YOUR COMPUTER BLOGGING ABOUT TOPICS YOU HAVE NO HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE OF. AND THINK YOU CAN INDICT OTHERS.
THE PROBLEM WITH THIS TOPIC IS THAT ANYONE COMMENTING ON IT AT LEAST NEEDS TO KNOW THE HISTORY BEFORE THEY CAN GIVE THEIR OPINION AND DRAW INTELLIGENT CONCLUSIONS.
THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO THINK THIS WHOLE PALESTINIAN ISSUE STARTED WHEN YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT IT.
THIS IS THE GREATEST MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE OF OUR TIMES WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT THIS ISSUE WILL CONTINUE TO HAUNT THE WORLD UNTILL IT IS SETTLED.
IT IS INSULTING THAT IGNORANT PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF WHO FEEL THAT THEIR OPINIONS ARE SO IMPORTANT AND WHO FEEL THAT EVERYTHING STARTS THE MOMENT THEY DECIDE TO BECOME AWARE OF SOMETHING HAVE THE RIGHT TO DISREGARD ALL THE HISTORY AND ACCURACY ON THE TOPIC.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER TO TRY AND GIVE YOURSELF RELEVANCE TO SUCH A SERIOUS TOPIC WHEN YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE THE DECENCY TO DISCOVER THE HISTORY.
GO DO SOME HOMEWORK THEN WE’LL TALK.
IS,
Damn, and here I thought we were having a conversation and not just talking towards each other. Turns out you only read what you wanted me to be saying.
Gyges:
You ask for some back-up and I give you some and now you accuse me of trying to support my arguement?
Is the beer still in your system?
Sicilian screams:; YOU HAVE NO RIGHT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER TO TRY AND GIVE YOURSELF RELEVANCE TO SUCH A SERIOUS TOPIC WHEN YOU DON’T EVEN HAVE THE DECENCY TO DISCOVER THE HISTORY.
you’ve gone from using all caps for emphasis to simply screaming. please have your blood pressure checked. I’m not sure that political blogs are the best use of your time. Try knitting. I hear it can be very soothing.
btw, who taught you to scream at middle aged women like this? your own mother? your teachers? your priest? who taught you that this behavior is okay?
gwlawschoolmom
YOUR CONTINUED ATTEMPTS TO TRY AND TURN THIS INTO A PERSONAL ASSAULT AGAINST me WILL not WORK.
you INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF everyone INTERESTED AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE SERIOUSNESS OF THIS ISSUE.
you SIT THERE WITH YOUR feigned COMPASSION WHICH IS nothing more THAN AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR privledged, elitist attitudes. WHO DO you THINK you ARE. IF you HAD ANY real CONCERN FOR THE real living AND breathing human beings INVOLVED IN THIS STRUGGLE you WOULD TAKE SOME TIME OUT OF your LAW SCHOOL STUDIES TO educate yourself ON THE ISSUE. IF you’re GOING TO COMMENT ON SOMETHING OF SUCH significance you OWE THAT TO THE PEOPLE OF THE REGION WHO ARE DYING.
IT’S PEOPLE LIKE you WHO CONTRIBUTR TO THE PROBLEM WITH your MISINFORMED OPINIONS. you ARE not WORTHY OF INCLUSION IN THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE you DO not HAVE THE COMMON respect TO EVEN FORM A RELEVANT OPINION BECAUSE your OPINION IS only FOUNDED UPON SOUNDBITES AND HEADLINES AND SOME OFFHANDED COMMENT you PICKED UP FROM A PUNDIT SOMEPLACE.
HOW MUCH MORE insensitive AND self-centered CAN you BE? BUT you’re LIKE ALL THE privledged, elitist types WHO THINK HISTORY STARTED THE DAY OR MOMENT THEY BECAME AWARE OF IT AND ALL THAT MATTERS IS their knee-jerk, ya-hoo OPINION. AND WRAPPING yourself IN SOME fiegned SHEET OF COMPASSION DOES not EXCUSE you BECAUSE AS I’VE ALREADY STATED, IF you REALLY CARED ABOUT THE PEOPLE INVOLVED AND NOT ABOUT TRYING TO MAKE yourself FEEL GOOD AND IMPRESS your OTHER ignorant psuedo-intellectual CROWD WITH your fiegned COMPAQSSION SO you ALL CAN SIT AROUND AT your WINE PARTIES congratulating EACH OTHER for HOW MUCH you ALL CARE, you WOULD ONCE AGAIN, TAKE SOME TIME OUT OF your “social conscious” LIFE AND educate yourself ON THE FACTS.
I WILL ONCE AGAIN QUOTE YOU;
“THE HASHEM’S ARE JORDAN’S NOT ARABS”
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE you INSULTED WITH THAT absolutely ignorant STATEMENT. EVEN PEOPLE you PROBABLY THOUGHT you WE’RE DEFENDING. most jordanians CONSIDER themselves TO BE palestinians. they LIVED IN THE ANCIENT LAND KNOWN AS palestimne BEFORE the brits CARVED OFF A CHUNK OF IT AND handed IT TO the hashemite TRIBE OF arabia, the rulers of the land of the hejaz, the kings of the arab world who ruled over the holy sites of mecca and medina for centuries. THE arab, hashemite minority RULES the MAJORITY of arab/muslim/palestinians LIVING IN jordan.
I’M not EVEN A muslim/arab/islamic apologist AND AT LEAST I HAVE THE respect TO know their HISTORY. I admitedly MAY not BE A SCHOLAR ON THE TOPIC but AT least I POSSESS A working KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE TOPIC TO ARGUE FROM AN intelligent POSITION.
AS I”VE STATED MY CONCLUSIONS MAY not BE AGRRED WITH, THEY MAY BE vitriolic, but ATY LEAST I’M WORKING FROM AN HISTORICALL factual POSITION.
THE same CAN not BE SAID FOR you. AND you ARE SO arrogant AND full OF yourself THAT you DO not EVEN HAVE THE humility TO ACKNOWLEDGE your MISTAKE.
your CONTINUED ATTEMPTS TO PERSONALLY ATTACK ME only expose JUST HOW arrogant, ignorant, self-centered and truly lacking in compassion you are.
Sicilian.
I no longer bother to read anything you write. Stop throwing tantrums.
gyges,
One lives to be of service. Your beer is in the mail.