my beef with messianics is that most of them are not jews of any stripe and the ones who are and then adopt christian thinking and try to make it jewish have chosen to become christians. nothing wrong with that… lots of people convert to other religions all the time. what bothers me is that these groups use jewish liturgy, symbols, customs and food, even, to christianize judaism. as if we didn’t have enough problems. this is deliberate and comes from a philosophy that says the means justify the ends and it doesn’t matter what lies are told or what deception used to get jews to accept jesus. Israel has been deporting them for years and every time they get deported they take what they’ve learned and use it to get better at faking being jews.

so what if these people have a bakery. baking challah or a decent chocolate bobka isnt going to get anyone to believe in jesus.

I honestly don’t remember if keeping Kosher was brought up as an example of something that was intended to keep groups isolated (the only one I remember for certain is the dietary aspect of the Brahman Caste system), but regardless of intention, the isolation was surely an effect of the system. I’d actually be surprised if their were any underlying intention for the laws as a whole.

My guess is that it’s a simply a codified collection of social customs, that were mixed in with new laws to give the newer laws the weight of tradition. Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t almost all of (what the Christian Bible calls) Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers from the P text? Not that that proves anything, but as we’ve pointed out about the Council of Nicea, texts sometimes get edited by the religious establishment to further their goals.

How,
That is a very good point and the reasons for the strictures are probably buried beyond discovery, if indeed there were reasons other than God’s commandments. When I was very young, lo those many years ago, my father, a rationalist, explained to my questions as to why we kept Kosher in terms of cleanliness. The fact of pork diseases, porous clay vessels, etc. It seemed plausible at the time but as one matures in thought theories need factual substance behind them.

Now as to Katz’s I first went there at about the age of eight.
When my parent’s took me to what was called the Lower East Side, it was usually to visit my Grandfather and my two uncles at their dry goods store. Since Katz’s was only “Kosher Style,” its’ meats were Kosher, but its’ kitchen wasn’t this would have to be done surreptitiously, since my Grandfather and his oldest son were strictly Orthodox Jews, who would never eat there.

Katz’s pastrami to me was on a par with Ben’s and didn’t measure up to the real thing. The Second Avenue Deli is of a similar quality in my opinion. However, I frequented Katz’s throughout the many years I lived in NYC for what I considered their best deli meat, Hard Salami. Good Kosher Hard Salami is hard to come by, but it is a taste treat and I am salivating as I write this. Ideally, it is thin slices, that you could almost use as poker chips and Katz’s salami is to me the best.

This whole discussion is energizing my taste buds, but alas here in Florida, though many would suspect otherwise, the Deli doesn’t compare to the New York of my youth. However, I admit these may be the delusions of an older guy saying things were so much better when I was young.

Gyges,
In my youth Dr. Brown’s brand soda was the soda of choice in all Jewish Deli’s. The Cream Soda was the favorite of most who considered it a good match for the deli sandwiches. Up until I was 18 though and my tastes matured(?), my Dr. Brown’s favorite was Cel-Ray, their Celery flavored soda. As to Ben’s Deli they have become a venerable institution, having started with a small store on Queens Blvd. in Queens County in the early 50’s and expanded all over the place. They’re good by today’s Jewish Deli standards, but their pastrami is just adequate, corned beef better and tongue is excellent.

“I remember reading in a few places that food Taboos in general are often put into place to help isolate societal groups”

This too and the rest of your point certainly is plausible. My only surmise would be the emphasis on pigs particularly and would further wonder if early enemies were pig farmers, while the Jews were sheep herders.

I remember reading in a few places that food Taboos in general are often put into place to help isolate societal groups, and that the various restrictions based on diet and food preparation were a large part of why the Jewish faith was so resistant to being absorbed by the dominate cultures that surrounded it at various points.

Mike, if you think there’s no more good pastrami, made the old-fashioned way, you haven’t been to Katz’s Deli in a while [corner of Ludlow & Houston, NYC]…it’s as fabulous as ever.

Bob, I think Dr. Brown’s is a Jewish thing, tho’ I don’t know why. Tradition?

“and a bottle of Dr. Brown’s diet Cream Soda. Jewish heaven.”

I never understood the Dr. Brown’s Cream soda thing. Yes I crave it when I see it at Ben’s Deli (not many other jewish delis on long island), but always wondered if it was a Ben’s Deli thing or a Jewish thing.

Now I’m thirsty and hungry.

Bob,
I think it was to some extent, but that is just speculation.
The base rule depends on the kind of hoof the animal has. Perhaps though Trichinosis was a factor.

“Would you ever settle down for the night with your TV tuned to Antiques Road Show; with a Reuben sandwich and a glass of chocolate milk?”

Antiques road Show is always DVR’ed in my house, though in truth I like it better than my wife does. As for eating pastrami with milk, worse chocolate milk, I don’t think there is a Jew alive who would do that. While it would be non-kosher of course, even non-religious Jews would not commit such a desecration. That would be like eating pastrami on white, with mayo. I’m not a fan of the Reuben. My preference is a half pound of pastrami, on good rye bread, no mustard to diffuse the taste and a bottle of Dr. Brown’s diet Cream Soda. Jewish heaven. The truth is though, sounding like the old fart I am, you really can’t get really good pastrami any more, just adequate meat that is not made the old fashioned way.

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“One side argued that the vessel stayed clean, but the other side argued that the liquid touching the unclean while being poured from the clean vessel rendered the clean unclean, since the liquid would be touching both the clean and the unclean vessels at the same time.”

This is true and reflects Jewish legalism, though I’m doubtful that people died over it, but I can believe they certainly had heated debates.

It is to be done with joy, rather than as a burden as Paul portrayed it. It means that the Jewish “adult” is then fully responsible for the life they live. As in my of repeated formulas from Rabbi Hillel (Do unto others….et. al) and the concept of “healing the world,” those are the basic Jewish beliefs and the “yoke” is how we live our lives to achieve them. Since Jews don’t really believe in an after life such as “Heaven” our duty lies in this world and making it better.

Now like all other religions we have fundamentalists who are very dictatorial in their outlook and need to control. I’ve dealt with some in my own family and in works situations. They
turn me off. Yet I had Uncles who were every nit as religious and observant of the law, who followed it in all respects. They never judged me, nor tried to push me towards their view.
They to me were truly pious people who understood what the religion was about and were exemplars of how any life should be lived.

Since I’ve already said that I don’t keep Kosher, yet acknowledge its’ importance in Jewish Law, it seems that I need to explain my own reasons. I am at base a Deist, which means that I do believe that there is a creative force in the Universe that is positive, but also believe humans in their current state are unable to comprehend it. Born a Jew there is of course a certain attraction to it and intellectually its
basic concepts appeal to me, so that I do celebrate the holidays and go to Synagogue, where one can meditate very well. It allows me to focus my energies towards following Hillel and Tikun Olam (healing the world). While I don’t practice Kashruth, there is no pork products in my home and I would literally become sick drinking milk with meat. Outside the home though I do like Bacon Cheeseburgers, so go figure.

There was this great debate or war about whether uncleanness travelled up a liquid being poured from a clean vessel and thereby made unclean a vessel that was ritualistically clean.

One side argued that the vessel stayed clean, but the other side argued that the liquid touching the unclean while being poured from the clean vessel rendered the clean unclean, since the liquid would be touching both the clean and the unclean vessels at the same time.

People died over these arguments and probably still do today in some parts of the world.

I always thought the Kosher/non-Kosher distinction was the ancient’s way of setting up an FDA or sorts. Most of it seems common sense, although one wonders how much disease they were avoiding with the ban on swine.

Anyway, now a days, with the FDA being what it is, riddle me this:

Would you ever settle down for the night with your TV tuned to Antiques Road Show; with a Reuben sandwich and a glass of chocolate milk?

“all the way to big boys like Coca-Cola and their natural sugar soda for Passover.”

Look for the yellow cap; or Pepsi Throwback baby.

Speaking of throwback baby, did you catch the one I threw you here?

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/06/30/im-good-enough-im-smart-enough-and-doggone-it-the-minnesota-supreme-court-likes-me/#comment-65548

As a boy, who grew up in a Kosher home and came from a large family (18 Aunts/Uncles on both sides)that had many very Orthodox Jews among them, the OU was usually the standard. However, in the last 40 years with the ascendancy of some Hassidic and Ultra-Orthodox communities, there has been less unity and a new term Glatt Kosher has arisen, which seems to mean even more Kosher than Kosher. After that it all gets more complex than anyone here would want to know.

Since I no longer keep Kosher, my investment in it is of a different perspective. For those who do, what is Kosher is a very big issue and that includes one of my children. There are many who would be perfectly happy to use products certified as Kosher and produced by non-Jews receiving proper certification and others whose view of the Kosher laws require a stricter standard. I know enough to know that it is a controversial issue and not one that is strictly about prejudice and very open to religious debate.

As far a the admixture of temple and state goes, many US States have laws regarding Kosher, to deal with fraudulent behavior. My personal opinion is I’ve got no investment on either side, not practicing Kashruth myself, but I will try to discuss this with people I know who themselves keep Kosher.