High School Student Posts Video On How The U.S. Is Becoming Police State . . . And Claims That He Is Promptly Visited By The FBI

Justin Hallman, 16, wanted to show how the United States is turning into a police state. He succeeded all too well in not only receiving an A+ in his American Government class but also allegedly a visit from the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) confirming the very premise of his film posted on YouTube (below).

Hallman is a civil libertarian who supports Ron Paul, criticized an array of measures including the National Defense Authorization Act, crackdown on free speech, and attacks on the hacktivist group Anonymous. I have raised many of the same concerns, but I never got the interest that Hallman appears to have generated from the good people at the FBI.

Hallman’s house was promptly visited by two FBI agents, according to Hallman and his mother. The teenager stayed inside the door and refused to answer the door. His mother later called and was told by the agents that “We need to talk to your son.” They came back to the house and said that they wanted the teen to work for the FBI as an informant and spy on others, particularly Anonymous. He says that the agents closely questioned him about his support for Ron Paul as well as a conversation he once had with his teacher about the Illuminati secret society.

I have tried to find a response from the FBI denying the underlying facts of the boy’s account. If this visit occurred, I would have hoped to see a response on the conduct of these agents in allegedly seeking to turn a high school student into an informant or investigating such a film (including apparently interviewing his teachers).

138 thoughts on “High School Student Posts Video On How The U.S. Is Becoming Police State . . . And Claims That He Is Promptly Visited By The FBI

  1. And you think “Person of Interest ” is just a tv show….. The government has ways of tracking you that you haven’t even thought of yet…….

  2. WOW exactly how Ruby Ridge started…and when he refused to be a informant they set up a sting to get him arrested, and then when he didn’t go to court, they surrounded his place.

    Ended up killing his 15yr old kid & wife!

    Watch your back kid….

  3. Interesting bit of propaganda the kid produce, like so much of the Paulistas work much more heat than light. I think these guys would be a lot more effective if they worked with the actual reality instead of Illuminati fantasies and disjointed violent images

  4. Bron,

    I agree, except it may already be too late. The idea of turning one young person against another is exactly like the things I was told as a child were wrong–you know, things the Soviet Union did!

  5. Roger,

    Check out this idea: “…all people fed up with lying candidates, can take to heart the truth (repeated endlessly by Zinn while he was alive and by Chomsky until he dies) that our power to challenge unaccountable power does not come from voting “for one fool or the other,” but from living lives of resistance, and organizing for direct action to get what we need. The fact that they allow us to vote does not mean we give up direct claims for justice in every other arena of life.

    This means personal risk! It’s not “safe” like voting for selected candidates. Insert Frederick Douglass quotes: “Power concedes nothing without a demand… Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them… The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress…” “Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning.”

    We can wait for candidate Godot, or we can work our whole lives to make our world into something that works for us, and to hell with the competing “presidential candidates” who want to be the face of the ruling oligarchy.”

    It is a wholly different approach. We don’t need any candidate to win but we do need to act together for the common welfare.

    This comment was by webwalker on CD.

  6. The visit sounded better in the original German.

    Repeal the Patriot Act.
    Disband the DHS & TSA.
    Prosecute domestic war criminals no matter who they are.
    Restore the Constitution and the rule of law.

  7. Gene H, the only single word I can possibly take issue with is “restore.”

    When did we have them? [Feel free to go as far back in time as you like]

  8. Malisha,

    The Constitution? September 10, 2001.

    The rule of law though has been on shaky ground for quite a while. The attack on it has been pretty much perpetual since the ratification but this is to be expected. As Andrew Jackson noted early on, “I weep for the liberty of my country when I see at this early day of its successful experiment that corruption has been imputed to many members of the House of Representatives, and the rights of the people have been bartered for promises of office.” The forces of tyranny are always hacking away at the rule of law. Like rust, they never sleep.

  9. Malisha,

    There have been terrible failings in this nation since it’s inception. There have also been times when more people were brought under the protection of the rule of law. At this time, the Constitution is a piece of toilet paper with which the vast majority of people wipe their butts. They’re proud to do so.

    Without forgetting the past you point out, building on that knowledge of past injustice, we have only right now to change the injustice of the present. We actually could restore parts of the rule of law which were in effective not 9, not even 2 years ago. We should go much further in making this nation be for justice and we should do so.

  10. why cant we eliminate the DHS? And rescind the Patriot Act?

    What is the problem? Almost every single person I know, except for a very few, wants the DHS disbanded and the Patriot Act done away with. Why do they both still exist?

    Why hasnt a politician run on a platform of disbanding them? I would vote for a socialist democrat who would make that his reason for running.

  11. Isn’t there some kind of law about attempts to corrupt a minor that could be enforced against these two agents?

    Yeah, I know … I know.

    Wouldn’t it have been great if he’d filmed it all and stuck that up on YouTube! Since they were inside his home I don’t think he would have been breaking any legitimate laws … as opposed to illegitimate ones LEs makeup on the fly.

  12. Bron, The only candidate to vote against the Patriot Act was defeated in 2010. Russ Feingold was defeated by a tea party republican.

  13. Bron,

    “What is the problem? Almost every single person I know, except for a very few, wants the DHS disbanded and the Patriot Act done away with. Why do they both still exist?”

    Because they are instruments of domestic tyranny and those who manufacture the tools and provide the facilities and staffing for enforcing tyranny (and are, ergo, in a position to profit from tyranny) are who most of Congress actually represents because nothing spells “graft”, er, “campaign contribution” like “war profiteers”.

  14. Unfortunately, this is what law enforcement has come to in the last several decades. Police have become in many respects one trick ponies. Arrest or intimidate someone into becoming a snitch. If arrested, give the cops 3 others and you can walk. It’s lazy and bureaucratic, 3 arrests is more than 1 arrest.

  15. Bron and Gene,

    I don’t think it’s just the fault of congress or the rest of govt. (which clearly has been utterly corrupted with a few exceptions). Many people in our nation accept the police state as normal or desirable. It was just worshiped at the RNC and DNC alike. Until more people understand that a police state does not protect anyone but the powerful it will remain in place. Until more people acknowledge that even though nothing is currently happening to them (often because they are obedient to authority), but bad things are happening to others and they need to care about that, it will remain in place.

  16. This is what happens in our society. I once wrote a letter to the paper, explaining the difference between “skinheads” in general, and the stereotypical racist skinheads that everybody thinks up. I got a visit from the local PD’s “organized crime” unit because I clearly had useful information on racist skinhead gangs. THEY NEEDED TO KNOW!

    If an agency thinks you know something or someone, you WILL be talked to.

  17. Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. -Robert Kennedy

    Jude, I included the previous RFK quote in a letter to a local paper years ago. Let’s just say that it didn’t go unnoticed. I’m still taking flak for it.

  18. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. -Robert Kennedy
    ============
    Do say? Do you know that almost all military laws are almost identical? Do you think that really makes any difference?

  19. Call me skeptical but this story doesn’t ring true. Rarely do FBI agents enlist informants on an initial encounter and they usually have a lot more leverage than a school project video. Underage informants are particullarly taboo. The story was reported in a blog known as Prison Planet.com and the author is its editor. He ends the story with this little tidbit:

    “Last month former Marine Brandon Raub was kidnapped by authorities and held in a psychiatric ward for political posts made on Facebook, just one of thousands of similar ongoing cases. Gun owners are also having their firearms confiscated having been declared “mentally defective” due to their political beliefs.”

    Sounds a little “aluminum foil hattish” to me.

  20. I don’t buy the notion the FBI was actually trying to recruit him to being an informant against the Hacktivist community. My opinion is this was merely an interrogation technique of an attempt to engage in a fishing expedition to discover evidence against the boy of wrong doing.

    This tehcnique invoves creating a sense in the “suspect” that the suspect is likely to get into trouble, but that there is a way to not only get out of it, but to redeem themselves by joining up with the good guys. It also offers a reward of some excitement and perhaps a reward of “bragging rights” for the suspect to use later.

    The deception of this interview technique is that there is no genuine intention on the state interviewers for the suspect to become an informant, but rather instead to gain the trust of the suspect so that he will lower his guard and spill the beans by sharing all the guilty actions he has partaken in. After this, they then use the information to possibly implicate him in a crime and his statements are admitted as evidence against him.

    I don’t know if this is the situation with regard to this teenager, but it is a possibility.

  21. I agree with both mespo and Darren. I have worked with law enforcement for many years and have known both FBI and Secret Service agents. This story does not pass the smell test.

  22. @mespo and otteray. Well, the story was also reported in The Washington Examiner. The story about Brandon Raub is true. His lawyer, John Whitehead, was doing many interviews, including one with Glenn Beck, about his case. They are planning to bring a civil suit for unlawful detention. And a judge will strip you of your right to own firearms if they can get a physician to declare you mentally unstable. It’s happening more and more. An example of this is David Sarti who appeared on the TV show “Doomsday Preppers” before he had his guns taken.

  23. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 11:35 am

    Matt, Take it up with RFK. Oh, gee, you can’t… He’s dead.
    ==============================================
    And what about you?

  24. Frankly,

    In denial again? Nobody else produces this kind of films, not the government, the Dems, the Repugs, Exxon Oil, Monsanto, the cigarette people, the alcohol
    people, infinite etc.

    At least he is trying to reach an honorable goal.
    And free speech still exists, although FBI does what it can to chill its use. Don’t you agree on that?

    Maybe you are too reaching for honorable goals. But feel you are not helping.

    Just an opinion.

  25. Mespo and OS,
    I agree that there is a distinct smell to this story.
    important topics,
    The Washington Examiner??? Secondly, shouldn’t someone who is mentally unstable be unable to purchase weapons?

  26. Well, if the kid and his mother lied or if the story is a complete fabrication, more than likely someone will now be under observation.

  27. Messpo,

    Any proof? I can give my opinion, but will leave this one to you guys and girls. Your collective situation worries me. But like some say, I am clean, what me worry? Make a wave and see how long the sharks stay away.

  28. 707 until and unless we can get the average voter to actually understand the situation as it actually is we are not going to move people that need moving. The problem with so much of the Paulistas stuff is it ignores the very real in favor of BS like FEMA reeducation camps and black helicopters (we will for the sake of this argument ignore his racist positions and supporters which also hurt him but fall outside of my original point).

    When normal people hear this black-helicopter-the-gov-is-coming-for-your-guns sort of propaganda they become very suspicious for 2 reasons. It is difficult to conceive of an actual program with any chance of success that involves imprisoning millions of Americans by armed force. (yes I am well aware of the Japanese camps but that was not force of arms, it was social pressure the Americans went willingly). And the bigger reason is that we have heard this bullshit is coming any day now from 1992 til 2000 then it went strangely silent for 8 years until 2008. You can only cry wolf for so long till people assume you are crazy.

    I think the efforts to roll back all the bad stuff that has happened since 2000 is actually hurt by the arguments being made by the Paulistas. I work with one & have to hear this every day.

  29. Are we not already under observation! And I mean all of us, all the time. There is still denial in Denali. It all depends on how you look at it, right comrade?

  30. @raff, yeah, it’s a newspaper distributed in the greater D.C. area. And, it’s not that they are unable to purchase the weapons, they are having guns that they legally own confiscated by law enforcement. Also, in the case of Sarti, he believes that he was targetted after the Doomsday Prepper episode in which he appeared aired. Sarti was having severe chest pain and claims to have told the doctor, in a figure of speech, that it hurt so bad that he’d rather kill himself than have to endure it any longer. This prompted the doctor to declare him defective.

  31. https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/welcome_to_the_american_gulag_using_involuntary_commitment_laws_to_sil

    Welcome to the American Gulag: Using Involuntary Commitment Laws to Silence Dissenters

    By John W. Whitehead
    September 11, 2012

    ” Most recently, of course, Virginia’s civil commitment law was used to justify arresting and detaining Marine Brandon Raub in a psychiatric ward. On Thursday, August 16, 2012, a swarm of local police, Secret Service and FBI agents arrived at Raub’s home, asking to speak with him about posts he had made on his Facebook page made up of song lyrics, political opinions and dialogue used in a political thriller virtual card game. Among the posts cited as troublesome were lyrics to a song by the rap group Swollen Members and Raub’s views, shared increasingly by a number of Americans, that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were an inside job.

    After a brief conversation and without providing any explanation, levying any charges against Raub or reading him his rights, law enforcement officials then handcuffed Raub and transported him first to the police headquarters, then to a medical center, where he was held against his will due to alleged concerns that his Facebook posts were “terrorist in nature.” Outraged onlookers filmed the arrest and posted the footage to YouTube, where it quickly went viral, which may have helped prevent Raub from being successfully “disappeared” by the government.

    In a hearing on August 20, government officials pointed to Raub’s Facebook posts as the sole reason for their concern and for his continued incarceration. Ignoring Raub’s explanations about the fact that the Facebook posts were being read out of context, Raub was sentenced to up to 30 days’ further confinement in a psychiatric ward. While in the psych ward, Raub reported being interrogated by medical staff about his views about the government and threatened by a doctor with brainwashing.

    On August 23, Circuit Court Judge Allan Sharrett declared the government’s case to be lacking in factual allegations and ordered Raub immediately released. However, for the tens of thousands of individuals detained—wrongfully or otherwise—under civil commitment laws every year, regaining their freedom is nearly impossible, predicated as it is on a bureaucratic legal and judicial system.”

    “Of course, this is all part of a larger trend in American governance whereby dissent is criminalized and pathologized, and dissenters are censored, silenced or declared unfit for society. Governmental authorities at all levels have made it abundantly clear that they want no one questioning their authority. And for those who do take to the streets to express their opinions and beliefs, rows of riot police, clad in jackboots, military vests, and helmets, holding batons, stun guns, assault rifles, and sometimes even grenade launchers, are there to keep them in line.”

    https://www.rutherford.org/about/about_john_whitehead/

  32. importantopics:

    “And a judge will strip you of your right to own firearms if they can get a physician to declare you mentally unstable. It’s happening more and more.”

    *********************

    It should be happening more. Ask those families of the kids slain at Va Tech by Seung-Hui Cho.

  33. How can one agree with Darren and implicitly his explanation of the self-incrimination MO, AND then say the story smells? Did JT indicate such? The technique Darren revealed is apparently quite common at all levels of LE.

    What say Spinelli. Darren is also knowledgable. OS has certainly heard of it and used similar ones for his legitimate purposes.
    Deception, thy name is rampant.

    Didn’t we give 50 reasons NOT to talk to police. ZERO ONES for saying the pledge or singing the Star Spangled…., even when accompanied by a lawyer. Let him talk, not you.

    So the door is open to doing whatever the FBI will to imcriminate minors. Did they read him his Mirandas. Or did his age exclude him from having any rights?

    Sometimes here I catch myself wondering. I say no more.

  34. There is a candidate running on repealing the PATRIOT Act and the NDAA.

    http://www.jillstein.org/issues

    Excerpt:

    CIVIL LIBERTIES

    Issue an Executive Order prohibiting Federal agencies from conspiring with local police to infringe upon right of assembly and peaceful protest.
    Repeal the Patriot Act that violates our constitutional right to privacy and protection against unreasonable search and seizure.
    Repeal the unconstitutional provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act that gives the president the power to indefinitely imprison and even assassinate American citizens without due process.
    Oppose the Online Piracy Act and all other legislation that would undermine freedom and equality on the Internet.
    Pass the Equal Rights Amendment to forever end discrimination based on gender.
    Eliminate the doctrine of corporate personhood with a constitutional amendment to clarify that only human beings have constitutional rights.
    Implement marriage equality nationwide to end discrimination against same-sex couples.
    Expand federal support for locally-owned broadcast media and local print media.

  35. You have NO obligation to talk to the FBI. But if you choose to do so, don’t lie. If they insist, don’t say anything without a lawyer who knows your constitutional rights.

  36. That guy was both carrying and using firearms in an illegal manner when that happened. I doubt another law declaring that he wasn’t allowed to purchase firearms would have deterred him. Guns are available on the black market. They can also be stolen.

  37. Why it doesn’t matter how we vote. Clinton did some good stuff but he’s the one who delivered NAFTA. The TPP is an Obama priority. Do you think Bain’s Romney wouldn’t like it? TPP is shaping up to be NAFTA on steroids.

    http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/13444-tpp-a-worldwide-corporate-power-grab-of-enormous-proportions

    The TPP is called a ‘trade agreement,’ but in actuality it is a long-dreamed-of template for implementing a binding system of global corporate governance as bold as anything the world’s wealthiest elite has attempted before. Of the 26 chapters under negotiation, only a few have to do directly with trade. The other chapters enshrine new rights and privileges for major corporations while weakening the power of nation states to oppose them. The TPP essentially proposes to establish a parallel system of justice where companies can sue countries in a tribunal of judges composed of unaccountable international trade lawyers with little to no process for appeal.

  38. Pa legislature let die a bill that would force residents to report stolen and lst firearms, this bill was supported by many Pa mayors but opposed by NRA and sad no surprise the NRA won.
    The NRA is for the black market

  39. There is really no such thing as a “black market” on otherwise legal firearms. Anyone can buy or sell a firearm privately. If you purchase a firearm from a dealer who has a Federal Firearms License (FFL), then that transaction has to be recorded and reported. I just checked our local Trading Post newspaper and there are a number of pistols, shotguns and rifles listed for private sale. Private sales are not reportable in most states, including ours.

  40. “John Whitehead Interviews Brandon Raub.” (Raub is nervous and says “very specifically” too often, but it’s worth a listen.)

  41. I noticed the Prof didn’t source this story so I got curious. Upon some lunchtime poking about, it appears this story was originally posted by a Paul Joseph Watson on Alex Jones’ Infowars.com and perpetuated by WND.

    As far as veracity goes, ’nuff said.

    Did you all hear that Morgan Freeman is dead?

    That being said, it is important to remember that better sourced stories like this one at the Guardian UK not only pass the smell test, but smell very bad indeed.

    The TSA’s mission creep is making the US a police state

  42. I have a friend who was in a high school in Miami 6 years ago, wrote some kind of an essay criticizing the war in Iraq and THREE DAYS LATER got a visit from the FBI. They claimed that other students had told them that he had been boasting about a plan to “do something” to the President — a total fiction. He did not get freaked out or intimidated but I think most kids would have.

  43. What Gene H. said about sources. The other day someone sourced info from an outfit funded by Richard Mellon Scaife. It was the Michelle Obama “spendthrift” story that shifted from shoes, no I mean planes. I thought it useless to protest. The gentleman had his mind made up.

  44. “‘Regarding “sources’, on occasion the rags get it right:”

    The fallacy of composition. Historically the rags got to be known as rags for a reason and that reason was not their sterling fact checking and/or general veracity. Either there is independent verifiable proof of the facts as asserted (as in the Edwards case) or prudence dictates viewing the evidence as presented as coming from historically questionable sources.

  45. Tabloid Trash — or Treasure?

    by Tom Scocca
    Sunday, May 10, 2009

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050802092.htm

    “The reputable media don’t traffic in that sort of tenuous speculation about people’s lives. They also didn’t traffic in the story of John Edwards and Rielle Hunter, until the Enquirer forced them to. This is why “tabloid journalism” is used as a put-down, and why tabloid journalism still exists: No one else does what it does, but in some situations, you need it.”

  46. anonymously posted:

    ““Of course, this is all part of a larger trend in American governance whereby dissent is criminalized and pathologized, and dissenters are censored, silenced or declared unfit for society. ”

    *********************

    As fate would have it, I have known both Doug Stokes (the special commissioner who handles committments) and Judge Sharrett (the Judge who freed for Raub) more than 20 years. Both are good, honorable men with excellent judgment. (I also know Tony Troy who defended Raub before Judge Sharett o/b/o the Rutherford Institute). Judge Sharrett found Mr. Stokes’ commitment order defective because certain boxes relating to factual allegations had not been checked. I have complete confidence that Doug Stokes would not capriciously commit a person for political reasons. I know my endorsement of Doug is not evidence but quite frankly nothing substitutes for knowing the man, imho.

  47. Just because a rationalization appears in the Washington Post does not mean it isn’t an example of the fallacy of composition and, ergo, automatically suspect logic. That quote is simply another way of assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole when that is simply not the case. To use this line of reasoning to justify trusting an otherwise untrustworthy source is also an inverse appeal to probability (also a logical fallacy) and an obtuse version of the faulty generalization of overwhelming exception (for every one Edwards story the qualifications of thousands of “bat boy” or “demon possesses blender” stories waters down the exception of your example – in this case the Edwards scenario – to the point it loses its utility).

  48. The use of the phrase “honorable men” brings this book to mind. It begins with the following dedication:

    To my children,
    members of a generation
    entitled to ask,
    “What did you do about it?”

    There may come a day when each one of us has to look in the mirror and ask, “What did you do about it?”

  49. anonymously posted:

    That’s what the Judge said because the boxes were not checked. Both a social worker and a psychiatrist thought this guy was a threat to himself or others. The best decisions are made with all the facts not just the ones you like.

  50. anonymously posted:

    “The use of the phrase “honorable men” brings this book to mind.”

    ************

    You can always tell the honorable men: They are the ones who use their names and don’t evade accountability.

  51. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    The use of the phrase “honorable men” brings this book to mind. It begins with the following dedication:

    To my children,
    members of a generation
    entitled to ask,
    “What did you do about it?”

    There may come a day when each one of us has to look in the mirror and ask, “What did you do about it?”
    =========================
    Use your real name. Somebody told me to do that, and I did.

  52. mespo:

    that guy, Raub, looked a little wild in the video. In my non-professional opinion, I can see why someone might err on the side of caution in this case.

    After watching the video I thought differently about what was done. But it is still a cautionary tale about how easy it is to commit people and why it should take more than one or 2 people to be able to do it.

  53. All Honorable Men by James Stewart Martin, 1950; Little, Brown and Company

    (a pdf file can be found online, but I can’t get the link to post; go to spitfirelist)

  54. Bron:

    That commitment came fast on the heels of the Colorado shooting. I think Doug erred on the side of caution. Pay the guy for his trouble and send him on his way. But I’d still keep an eye on him if I were the cops in Chesterfield County.

  55. the laptops of Friends of Wikileaks- American citizens- are being confiscated and searched at the US borders. People put on ‘no fly’ lists for political reasons, etc.

  56. “Use your real name. Somebody told me to do that, and I did.”

    That’s a good boy. Just keep marching in lockstep, Matt.

  57. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    “Use your real name. Somebody told me to do that, and I did.”

    That’s a good boy. Just keep marching in lockstep, Matt.
    =============================================
    I was E5 Navy. What are you?

  58. mespo727272 1, September 13, 2012 at 3:25 pm

    anonymously posted:

    “The use of the phrase “honorable men” brings this book to mind.”

    ************

    You can always tell the honorable men: They are the ones who use their names and don’t evade accountability.

    ******************************************************************

    “You can always tell the honorable men” by their cheap shots.

  59. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm

    “Use your real name. Somebody told me to do that, and I did.”

    That’s a good boy. Just keep marching in lockstep, Matt.
    =============================================
    I was E5 Navy. What are you?

    ==========================================================

    As I said, just keep marching, Matt.

  60. “To use this line of reasoning to justify trusting an otherwise untrustworthy source is also an inverse appeal to probability (also a logical fallacy) and an obtuse version of the faulty generalization of overwhelming exception (for every one Edwards story the qualifications of thousands of “bat boy” or “demon possesses blender” stories waters down the exception of your example – in this case the Edwards scenario – to the point it loses its utility).”

    You were probably intellectualizing while in the womb. :-)

    (In the main, I happen to agree with you.)

  61. Frankly: You blew it when you suggested that Japanese-American WILLINGLY accepted internment camps. Yes, Americans who were not Japanese accepted them in the same way that Germans accepted Buchenwald, but the Japanese-Americans NEVER accepted being put in internment camps.

  62. @ roger gunderson:
    i used to say the same thing about Ralph Nader. Now i realize “representative democracy” is a ruse and that no election is going to change anything for the better.

  63. anonymously posted,

    “You were probably intellectualizing while in the womb.”

    I was born playing chess. As you can imagine, this was quite awkward for the delivery room staff. Not to mention uncomfortable for mom.

  64. anonymously posted 1, September 13, 2012 at 11:20 am

    Every society gets the kind of criminal it deserves. What is equally true is that every community gets the kind of law enforcement it insists on. -Robert Kennedy

    Jude, I included the previous RFK quote in a letter to a local paper years ago. Let’s just say that it didn’t go unnoticed. I’m still taking flak for it.
    ===============================================
    The National Police Union Refuses to Endorse Romney, First Such Refusal in 98 Years makes for interesting conversation.

    They endorsed Bush II and McCain …

  65. A police state mentality is arguably minor in comparison to controlling ~80% of the WMD worldwide market:

    Now, consider question two in our little snap quiz of recent war news:

    In 2011, what percentage of the global arms market did the U.S. control?

    a) 37% ($12.1 billion), followed closely by Russia ($10.7 billion), France, China, and the United Kingdom.

    b) 52.7% ($21.3 billion), followed by Russia at 19.3% ($12.8 billion), France, Britain, China, Germany, and Italy.

    c) 68% ($37.8 billion), followed by Italy at 9% ($3.7 billion) and Russia at 8% ($3.5 billion).

    d) 78% ($66.3 billion), followed by Russia at 5.6% ($4.8 billion).

    Naturally, you naturally eliminated “d” first. Who wouldn’t?

    (Tom Engelhardt, Huffington Post). The answer is “d” …

  66. “bettykath
    1, September 13, 2012 at 12:43 pm

    http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/13444-tpp-a-worldwide-corporate-power-grab-of-enormous-proportions

    The TPP is called a ‘trade agreement,’ but in actuality it is a long-dreamed-of template for implementing a binding system of global corporate governance as bold as anything the world’s wealthiest elite has attempted before. Of the 26 chapters under negotiation, only a few have to do directly with trade. The other chapters enshrine new rights and privileges for major corporations while weakening the power of nation states to oppose them. The TPP essentially proposes to establish a parallel system of justice where companies can sue countries in a tribunal of judges composed of unaccountable international trade lawyers with little to no process for appeal.”
    *******
    I’m just moving and reiterating Bettykath’s concern over this new treaty, I griped about it before (on another site I think) and I think it is an incredibly bad treaty. We have complained here before that there is a glaring lack of accountability for corporations and that there is a move to turn the wealth class and corporations into stateless agents that have little responsibility or accountability to any place they deem to land and squat until a better deal comes along.

    This proposed treaty does exactly what the article states; it establishes a new parallel set of laws for corporations and leverages their power to levels that supersede the legal authority of governments. This is dangerous stuff. We have used the title “new feudalism” here before to describe the trend to a new economically driven social order resembling feudalism. That IMO is a correct observation. This takes it worldwide and gives it the veneer of legality. It’s one prong in a complete realignment of publicly certified power that separates the wealth/corporate class from the rest of the people and legal institutions that governments have set up. Bad stuff.

    If you look at the big picture (which has taken decades to come to fruition) and many of the things talked about here:

    the ubiquitous surveillance- now to be rolled out in real time very much in the mold of ‘Person of interest’;

    the transformation of local police forces into an army that has access to military equipment and training including APCs, aircraft, guns/ammo, boats, crowd control equipment the safety of which is still debatable;

    the expansion of new agencies and authorities such as the TSA; secret warrant courts and administrative subpoenas;

    the control of most of the worlds wealth shared among a handful of corporations and banks;

    the stateless nature of big business and its responsibility, even being subsidized by the affected nations as NAFTA did;

    blah. blah, blah, I have to wonder if we missed the boat some years back and aside from complaining about it on blawgs it’s impossible to roll back.

    A news article like the one that gave rise to the Professors article, even if its sourcing bona fides are questionable strikes a chord, a resonance built on enough knowledge about how dramatically the weight of power has been shifted and cemented into place, that makes it ‘feel’ true.

  67. lottakatz 1, September 13, 2012 at 8:14 pm

    A news article like the one that gave rise to the Professors article, even if its sourcing bona fides are questionable strikes a chord, a resonance built on enough knowledge about how dramatically the weight of power has been shifted and cemented into place, that makes it ‘feel’ true.
    =================================================
    It is not only wee the people who at times feel these things instinctively, knowing they are trueish.

    But also knowing that propaganda, spin, and co-ordination of cover-ups are also true.

    Sometimes government officials can’t keep it under wraps either:

    … as a presidential appointee to high office, I had high level security clearances. In addition to my duties as Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury, I had FEMA responsibilities in the event of nuclear attack. There was a mountain hideaway to which I was supposed to report in the event of a nuclear attack and from which I was supposed to take over the US government in the event no higher official survived the attack.

    a handful of Arabs, mainly Saudi Arabians, operating independently of any government and competent intelligence service, men without James Bond and V for Vendetta capabilities, outwitted not only the CIA, FBI, and National Security Agency, but all 16 US intelligence agencies, along with all security agencies of America’s NATO allies and Israel’s Mossad. Not only did the entire intelligence forces of the Western world fail, but on the morning of the attack the entire apparatus of the National Security State simultaneously failed. Airport security failed four times in one hour. NORAD failed. Air Traffic Control failed. The US Air Force failed. The National Security Council failed. Dick Cheney failed. Absolutely nothing worked. The world’s only superpower was helpless at the humiliating mercy of a few undistinguished Arabs.

    It is hard to image a more far-fetched story–except for the second thing you need to know: The humiliating failure of US National Security did not result in immediate demands from the President of the United States, from Congress, from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and from the media for an investigation of how such improbable total failure could have occurred. No one was held accountable for the greatest failure of national security in world history. Instead, the White House dragged its feet for a year resisting any investigation until the persistent demands from 9/11 families for accountability forced President George W. Bush to appoint a political commission, devoid of any experts, to hold a pretend investigation.

    The government’s agents and apologists try to deflect attention from disturbing facts by redefining factual evidence revealed by experts as the product of “a conspiracy culture.” If people despite their brainwashing and lack of scientific education are able to absorb the information made available to them, perhaps both the US Constitution and peace could be restored. Only informed people can restrain Washington and avert the crazed hegemonic US government from destroying the world in war.

    (11th Anniversary of 9/11). The “it feels true” part is the instinctive belief that there isn’t much they will not do.

  68. One issue, whether or not it is relevant to this topic but certainly might be one for youse guys and gals, is how the Federal Government’s criminal procedures relate to juveniles.

    Federal crimes are geared to be prosecuted against adults. The federal system has provisions to deal with juveniles, under delinquency procedures, but it is legally cumbersome and by statute the federal courts and US attorneys are more or less encouraged by statute to pass the juvenile to state authorities. Othewise it invovles a lengthy process.

    http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C403.txt

    I have only seen personally a couple of prosecutions of juveniles under the federal system, my expereince has been US Attys do not want to deal with it, for understandable reasons.

    That is not to say a fed LEA might not take the initial investigation, but they will almost certainly later pass it along to state courts for prosecution.

  69. Gene H. 1, September 13, 2012 at 7:17 pm

    anonymously posted,

    “You were probably intellectualizing while in the womb.”

    I was born playing chess. As you can imagine, this was quite awkward for the delivery room staff. Not to mention uncomfortable for mom.

    ———

    lol, I might have guessed. Thanks for that.

  70. Dredd: “The “it feels true” part is the instinctive belief that there isn’t much they will not do.”
    ***

    No trust. It’s a bad place to be.

    I have been looking for a story I read or heard just within the last couple of days about a problem with some internal DHS (i believe) memos that Congress has not been allowed to see. There had been some internal legal opinions released via FOIA t(hat even Congress had not been provided) about what some law pertaining to (internal?) security allowed. What wasn’t being released were the internal, relevant agency memos which detailed what the respective agencies interpreted as the scope of allowable activities which may be different.

    I think it was a TV report that I was trying to listen to while I made dinner a couple of days ago and just heard enough to semi-garble the info details. I haven’t been able to find it though. My search terms are faulty because I cold not pay enough attention to pick out good descriptive key-words.

    That said, I think that the deep veil of secrecy and what appears to be ubiquitous lying from all government agencies, the fact that laws are written, stated as allowing one thing and used in other ways without notice or explanation or remedy (except later, narrowly, and on a very limited basis if at all) has worked to destroy trust in the credibility of the government. You know they’re lying because their lips are moving.

  71. Messpo,
    Your post:
    “importantopics:

    “And a judge will strip you of your right to own firearms if they can get a physician to declare you mentally unstable. It’s happening more and more.”

    *********************

    It should be happening more. Ask those families of the kids slain at Va Tech by Seung-Hui Cho.

    ==========================================

    Thank Goodness I am not a therapist or fórensic psychiatrist. So I feel no profeesional barriers to opinionating that you seem unusually challenged by threats, that most of us live without excessive fear of in our daily lives.

    Do you have a suggestionn as to what measures should be taken to lessen the danger you perceive? Would you have more solutions with internet monitoring of American free speeech for signs of terrorists, signs of mental instabiiity as in the case exhibited above in the Marine who essentially protested using published songs, if we are to believe it of course?

    What do you believe?

  72. Whoever wrote that most people are against the Patriot Act is living in an echo chamber. I do agree with the Patriot Act forcing various agencies to talk to each other, and that’s it.

    Most American’s do not understand the breadth and depth of the Patriot Act’s destruction of our civil liberties. If I’m right, how can they be either for or against?

    Security is such a huggable moment, want a hug?

  73. IDEALIST:

    “What do you believe?”

    *****************

    If credentialed mental health care professionals (note the plural) conclude that your actions warrant the conclusion that you present an imminent threat to your safety or the safety of others they should petition the court to have you committed for observation. If the judge agrees, you should be subject to compulsory evaluation in a mental health facility.

    Had that happened at Va. Tech where the mental health staff had such concerns or in Colorado where the shooter’s psychiatrist was likewise alarmed, 46 people would likely still be alive and scores more wouldn’t be in pain.

    It’s really pretty simple and common sensical — something a lot of folks on this thread seem to have willingly abandoned in their zeal to find a threat to their liberties under every rock.

  74. Ariel,

    Neither did the Congress who voted for it understand the Patriot Act. They literally could not, with 60 minutes to study the act involving changes to over a hundred existing laws.

    That is another example of how even Congress is steered, and not by their constituents.

  75. I filed FOIA, Privacy Act, APA, FRA, constitutional suits against the FBI,
    EOP, and Mr. Mueller and served interrogatories on Mr. Mueller in which he denied having records and investigating me and i proved he lied under oath and the judge did nothing ….. Mr. Mueller what say you…we need congressional and senatorial investigations into all of the above subjects

  76. I THINK THIS BOOK IS ENORMOUSLY IMPORTANT!!!!!

    My goodness, why?

    Very simple, because it is extremely current in exposing what has happened before, AND SHOWING WHAT WE AN EXPECT (BE CERTAIN NOW AS A FACT) to happen to our nations and the nations of the world.

    In its very first lines, it exposes the cartel which was formed cooperation over the Atlantic to the advantage of companies who supported Germany’s side in re-arming. Contrary to our foreign policy and our position in the war. AMERICAN COMPANIES OPPOSING THEIR OWN COUNTRY’S WAR EFFORT!!!!
    It goes on the show what was done to fight this during and after the war.

    TODAY? Today Obama and many corporations are supporting a proposed “TRADE PLAN” which will allow corporations to in cartel like actions challenge governments around the world and bring them to a kangaroo court and be hindered in exercising their sovereign rights

    Do you see that that was exactly what the WW2 cartel attempted to do, but not using a binding trade agreement, rather using secrecy as their tool.

    Corporaiions have always been impatient with governments, especially “unstable” democratic one.

    Now they are prepared to sneak by us the BIGGEST STEP under the disguise of a trade pact, which sells all of us down the river to the control of corporations.

    National sovereignity, what’s that. Your decisions? Your governments are bound by law to comply with corporate decisions—–with the new pact, which Obama supports, it is said.

  77. Sorry, this is about “All Honorable Men” by James Stewart Martin, who worked to stop the American trans-atlantic cartel of companies supporting Germany with strategic material, etc before and during WW2.

    Link are to .pdf’s in two parts to the book.

    Anonymously???? had had problems posting them.

    He recommended it and impressed by him and the books dedication I went to spitfire (a fascist fighting site) to look. The dedication expresses the question which I have naively stated here several times.

    “And what did you do about it?”

  78. lottakatz 1, September 13, 2012 at 11:42 pm

    Dredd: “The “it feels true” part is the instinctive belief that there isn’t much they will not do.”
    ***

    No trust. It’s a bad place to be.

    You know they’re lying because their lips are moving.
    ===========================================
    Bingo.

    They have the burden of proof, not us.

    It is an ancient wisdom.

  79. woody, I truly appreciate a person who isn’t so stuck on themself that they can take a ball busting. Bust mine anytime, woody.

  80. Anono-whatever and GeneH.

    Agree with both.
    GeneH said, I got 9 months to kill, what am I gonna do?

    Anon, good take. Who knows what lies behind names? I hide because I am stupid and have my name as my email address. Spam. whazzat?

  81. The article is a bit lame. What City? What State? Ask the Congressman to hold Congressional hearings into this. If he/she wont do it then vote them out. Ron Paul!

  82. Messpo,

    My first reflection was to retract my objection, but then reallzed that yours is a general goal, not one concerning just those cases of which I know nothing.

    It remains to be seen what is the truth in the Marine’s case. If there is evidence that he is mentally unstable then he will subject to re-committal and threatened again with brainwashing.

    As it was the marine’s police action was staged with combat techniques with experienced LEOs who gave the man plenty of rope to hang himself. When he didn’t, they took him anyway. A foregone conclusion?

    They even tried to rough him up when he used the “go limp” tactic on them, hitting him against a fence when he was on the ground limp. Why? Because a roughed up guy looks more thug like in the mug shot.

    Could say more, but time will tell. Just don’t you go asking for the government to have patience with your internet complaints, etc. They will come for you too.

    And now for a snart! Be nice, and they might let you pilot a drone, into your own hate’s backyard.
    Smile!

  83. I wonder jsut how intelligent this NSA screening of internet, etc is?
    Can it handle semantics and context?
    Any AI people here?

    Messpos ultimate surveillance machine?

    Messpo,

    If you nail up a tract on the church door, then you must expect rebuttals to be added to the same nail.

    Hope Blousie reads this.

  84. Messpo said:

    “If credentialed mental health care professionals (note the plural) conclude that your actions warrant the conclusion that you present an imminent threat to your safety or the safety of others they should petition the court to have you committed for observation. If the judge agrees, you should be subject to compulsory evaluation in a mental health facility.”

    And if these are “chosen” professionals, or in many other cases*** given no choice, then we know what their conclusion will be.

    If the prosecution does not have a case on criminal grounds, then can always lock you away as loony.
    They did in the USSR. Did we not learn something from them and the Nazis?

    Yeah, one basic thing: All may be created equal, but from their first breath the chasm widens.

    ***For ex. JFK post mortem was done under general officer level supervision. Many doubts of facts presented there.

  85. Thanks Again…NIck…You Know

    Robert Mueller and the FBI are watching this site…And they have engaged
    in unconstitutional surveillance of this writer for years…(Buggin of telephones and GPS surveillance with a small louisiana group of politicians)in violation of search and seizure clause and the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act…since my writings in the 1080s critical of the Trilateral Commission ….technological transfers to the Soviets and China, etc….i would challenge mr. mueller to document any illegal activity i have engaged in…instead of hiding behind semantical rulings in favor of the FBI and covering up the fact that he lied…by a judiciary that is subject to political manipulation…What say Ye…mr. mueller???? You can use this site

  86. Don’t be foolish, we’ll do nothing and like it until mothers can no longer find bread for their children, and then the men will act, and many will die hoping to get a slice.

  87. A shame this one died early, as I see it. Hope everybody saw the Guardian’s TSA mission creep article. Creepy. TSA trainin center motto? “Dominate, Intimidate, Control”

    Has anybody seen the architects sketchs for a FEMA camp?
    Did you notice any high smoke stakes next to low buildings. Interior elevation or plan sketche showing shower heads in large rooms might also be of interest too.

    Give up a heads up in which case, wontcha?

  88. Dredd 1, September 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm

    It is not only wee the people who at times feel these things instinctively, knowing they are trueish.
    =====================
    How about if you send e-mail responses in the “wee hours of the morning.”

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