Michigan Legislature Passes Law To Allow Concealed Weapons In School [Updated]

180px-School_Bus_-_Thomas_-_Ledgemere_Transportation_-_4thumb_blue_gun_alex_fernandez_01We previously discussed the suggestion by a member of Congress that the Connecticut massacre could have been avoided if only teachers were carrying M-4 assault rifles. Now the Governor of Michigan is considering bringing that a little closer to reality with a bill that would allow concealed guns in public schools. Referring to the Connecticut massacre, Senator Tom Casperson, the Republican sponsor of the bill, said “to me it gives [teachers] a chance.” [Update: the Michigan Governor Rick Synder has vetoed the legislation]

If signed by the governor, the measure would also permit firearms in hospitals and stadiums for good measure. Ohio, Oklahoma and Alabama are considering their own expansions of gun laws.

Churches and businesses could still post signs prohibiting guns to exempt themselves from the law.

As of Dec. 1, there were 351,599 concealed weapons permits approved in Michigan, according to the State Police website.

Source: Business Week

214 thoughts on “Michigan Legislature Passes Law To Allow Concealed Weapons In School [Updated]

  1. Advocates of this sort of approach massively over-simplify things. It is the armed equivalent of advising someone under physical assault to “just kick them in the family jewels”. Where do you keep the gun when you are writing on the blackboard, reading, assisting with activities, unzipping coats, opening the jar of paste, etc.? Does the gun have a safety? Is the safety always off? How do you prevent student access to the gun? Have you trained to use it in high-stress conditions (the target range doesn’t count)?

  2. Just what we need armed teachers. So with guns blazing we can take out more kids more ways. Have these people ever checked out the accuracy ratings of fully qualified police officers in crisis situations? We need gun control now.
    Legislators who get A ratings from the NRA should be identified for who and what they are accomplices to mass murder.

    We all have a right to life and guns end lives quickly and massively get them off the streets. Protect living human beings and their CONSTITUTIONAL right to life now!

  3. We won’t really be safe until every person is carrying. Certainly nobody was ever shot in the old west when men packer a revolver on their hip as an ordinary accessory. Thats the world we should be trying to recreate.

    This bill does not go far enough, the only way to protect kids against a teacher going off on them is if they are strapped also. That will solve the bullying problem too I am sure. Once every man, woman and child in America is armed and ready to shoot everyone will be much much safer

  4. BTW – we’ll also save a ton of money as there will be no need for a police force once we are all deputized by a ‘shoot first ask questions later’ – er, stand your ground law.

    Which will be a good thing because no sane cop would want to walk into a building were a possible active shoot is and some unknown number of Roy Rogers wannabes all have their guns out too

  5. I know some who works in the Michigan Legislature well… that stated that this is probably going to be one of the most divisive issues coming back into 2013 and they expect more divisiveness throughout as political polarity becomes the norm…. And that but for the Newtown, Connecticut shooting the governor more than likely would have signed the legislation and that he was still urged to do so by some of the sponsors…..

  6. Hope it goes through. Prohibitions only effect those that would cause no harm in the first place. We have become a society of victims. We hire people (police) to do something we refuse to do ourselves, defence. To disarm law abiding citizens only put them at greater risk. I’m amazed at the absolute ignorance of the media. I have watched them refer to common firearms as “machine guns” “automatic weapons” calling the AR15 “one of the most powerful guns there is” none of which is true. That technology has been available to the general public for nearly 100 years. Only the material and the look of the firearms has truly changed. What has changed is a SICK society that glorifies violence in out media. Natural Born Killers, kill Bill,No Country For Old Men just to name a few. Then we wonder why our kids have no heart. We have a natural right to self defence, to disarm us only puts us at the mercy of the merciless.

  7. “Just last month when we took a first look at the 2014 landscape we talked about how much Rick Snyder had improved his popularity during his second year in office and how he led a generic Democrat for reelection by 6 points, even as Barack Obama won the state comfortably.

    Last week he threw all that out the window.

    We now find Snyder as one of the most unpopular Governors in the country. Only 38% of voters approve of him to 56% who disapprove. There are only 2 other sitting Governors we’ve polled on who have a worse net approval rating than Snyder’s -18. He’s dropped a net 28 points from our last poll on him, the weekend before the election, when he was at a +10 spread (47/37).” PPP No wonder Snyder vetoed the bill. Right to work is not too popular in Michigan.

  8. Jeesh, the posters here are just so left wing. It was almost predictable.
    Only denigration for the idea, cept for Fabien, no here even gave it some analysis or a second thought.

    People, just consider what if someone other than the murderer at the Newtown elementary school had a gun – would it have made no difference?
    Could at least some of the children have been saved?

    I don’t know, but it is a legitimate question.

  9. “The massacre of schoolchildren in Connecticut may yield new laws to limit the availability of military-style assault weapons. But one thing the latest tragedy will likely not produce: lawsuits against the company that manufactured the gun used in the killings.

    Under a controversial law Congress passed seven years ago at the urging of the National Rifle Association, gun manufacturers are explicitly shielded from lawsuits that would seek to hold them liable for crimes committed with weapons they sold.

    The 2005 law has drawn attacks from gun control advocates and constitutional scholars, who portray it as a powerful insulator for gun manufacturers, protecting them from the consequences of their lethal products. Why should gun manufacturers, they ask, enjoy a special liability protection not available to other companies that make potentially lethal products?

    “Gun companies should be treated the same as any other company. There is no reason to give them special exemption from litigation,” said Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the University of California, Irvine School of Law. “It is an outrageous piece of legislation.” Huffington Post

  10. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/19/newtown-drones-children-deaths

    Meanwhile, University of Michigan professor Juan Cole, at the peak of mourning over Newtown, simply urged: “Let’s also Remember the 178 children Killed by US Drones”. He detailed the various ways that children and other innocents have had their lives extinguished by President Obama’s policies, and then posted this powerful (and warning: graphic) one-and-a-half-minute video from a new documentary on drones by filmmaker Robert Greenwald (no relation):

  11. The law should have an exception for any teacher who has a son whom they have named Adam. And with that I would add Eve, Josh, Justin, and Jason. The kids will steal the guns, shoot the mom, go to school and start shooting, particularly if they just got an F in math or science.

  12. The dead children photos are all taken in N. Waziristan, which I believe is part of Pakistan. We are not at war with Pakistan or its people, or are we?
    The Talibans there are not our enemies, we have declared in a press release on new policy ,along with the moivation of reaching an accommodation.

    Killing children does not promote accomodation.

    But we continue to use our war games trained operators thousands of miles away to kill them unceasingly—-by a President who should leave back his Nobel Peace Prize, as he has failed in all peace-related measures.

    The problem starts at home. Fix it at home and we fix it all over.

    Were the children in Newtown more valuable to their parents that these children were?

  13. Gun manufactures should not be held responsible for the acts of the lawless any more than auto companies for drunk drivers or reckless drives that kill or injure people. Gun control is a simple solution for simple minds. More guns less crimes is fact. Law abiding people able to defend themselves and HARSH penalties for criminals is the only thing that will work. The worse school massacre in U.S. history was in Chicago 1958. 93 children and 2 adults were murdered in an arson fire in which no one w was ever prosecuted. That is more that the worse school shootings combined. Where is the outcry for limiting matches and lighters. 700 people are murdered every year and 100,000 buildings totaling 1.4 billion dollars in damagein the U.S. from arson fires every year. Where is the outcry for fire control. About 200,000 people die every year from medical malpractice in the U.S. Where is the outcry!! Control is the result of ignorant people that feel helpless and a government that has screwed us for at least two generations and fears the people will hold them responsible in some way when a collapse comes

  14. Fabien,

    You are right that media are technically inaccurate in describing certain semi-automatic weapons as “machine guns”.

    In truth, however, a semi-automatic with a high-capacity mag might as well be a machine gun.
    A properly used semi-automatic is actually better and more deadly than a machine gun. Anyone firing a machine gun in other than very short bursts is unlikely to be hitting what they think they are aiming at. The gun naturally swings up diagonally – even when held correctly. Bursts of two rounds are very effective for actually hitting stuff being aimed at.
    A semi-automatic can practically match that rate of fire – and it gives the shooter a chance to actually make each shot count.

    “To disarm law abiding citizens only put them at greater risk.”
    Tell that to the 16 bystanders shot by two trained professional NYPD cops near the Empire State recently.

    “That technology has been available to the general public for nearly 100 years. Only the material and the look of the firearms has truly changed”
    The framers of the Fourth probably envisaged six-shooter revolvers for all – with maybe a Gatling gun in the Principal’s office just in case too many injuns attacked.
    I don’t think they envisaged semi-automatic weapons with up to 30-round mags.

    “to disarm us only puts us at the mercy of the merciless”
    To disarm civilians in general is to put them at the mercy of the merciless who can’t get access to the types and numbers of weapons required for a massacre.

  15. That Bushmaster uses ads with this theme is proof positive that we are indeed sick. So sick, that we sell to the sick, and profit from society’s failings. And Bushmaster is not alone.

    Is it related to our growing feeling of being unable to effect our situaltion, in any positive way?

    BTW, this is not an assault rifle. It has obviously an effective range of max 40 yards. Unlikely to hit anything further away than ten steps.
    No better than the self-defense weapons carried by jeep drivers in WW2. But it sells.

    We are suffering from a mass attack on who we are. No less.

    Talk about machismo sickness. For profit. Disgusting.

  16. I have been a competition shooter for many years. Hard to school me on the function and firepower of arms. ALL of my assertions stand. It is 100 year old technology. Sustained fire from a “machinegun” has tremendous killing power. That’s why military’s around the world use them. A semiautomatic is most effective against the unarmed. The framers of the fourth??? Not sure your point. The framer of the second envisioned a well armed society that the government would fear. When the people fear government , that is a police state. The. The government fears the people you have liberty. You points are ignorant. Not saying you are stupid!! That’s different

  17. Don’t know what Bushmaster you are talking about. The AR t yep I shoot Is good for about 500 yards and is. an exceptional hunting rifle. More ignorance

  18. By the way ,let’s remember that governments have murdered more of their unarmed citizens in the 20th century than all the dead from all the wars we have ever fought. I not talking about the. Killing them in combat but taking them to killing fields, gas chambers and cutting off entire sections of their countries and starving their populations to death.
    I don’t trust governments left or right enough to disarm. To do that is to ignore history.

  19. When sh## goes down why do you call the police or the military?? Its not the uniforms, its the guns. Properly trained citizens are no different than trained police. Afterall the police are just human beings like everyone else. I cared concealed in the state of Ca. Legally for 10 years. Stoped one armed robbery without even firing a shot. The presence of my .45 ParaOrdance was enough to send the person running. He was apprehended plebargoned and cut lose on probation. That is part of the problem.

  20. Really! What do you hunt? Large herds of wildebeast?

    If you can’t down a deer with one shot from a bolt-action rife, you can’t shoot for crap.
    What hunter needs to be able to loose off 30 rounds in rapid sucession?

    For a school massacre, a semi with a high-capacity mag is going to be as effective as a machine gun overall.
    A machine gun is good for pretty indiscrimate spraying. It generally gets people on a random basis, with a low round-fired to hit ratio. It’s good for keeping the oppositions heads down in a firefight. That’s fine if you have a *lot* of ammo easily to hand.
    For maximum kill, use aimed shots.

  21. seems to me that if you know someone has a concealed gun and your aim is to do maximum damage then you will go in with a semi automatic and shoot the moment you get into the door. Why take the chance someone might be able to get to that concelaed weapon?

  22. You again are ignorant. The AR 15 is a 5.56 or .223 It is much less powerful than. 30.06. So much insurance and so little time to clear it up for you. Its not about hunting anyway. Unfortunately a machete is effective against 6 year-olds. :-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(

  23. Well lejacaro. Let’s just disarm the cops too!! Why take the chance someone can get to their gun! Ignorance!!! Yes! If someone is trying to inflict great bodily injury on me wit anything including a baseball bat I want maximum killing power. Guilty! I harm no one. If I’m attacked with deadly force I will return deadly force.

  24. After 9/11, idiots “suggested” that arming pilots with guns was the “solution” to hijacking. Instead, airplanes are being fitted with more secure doors. Which is more likely to keep hijackers from getting in?

    In the same way, screening at doors and secure doors on schools will do far more to keep out those like Lanza. “Arming” teachers just adds another level of risk (e.g. kids getting their hands on guns).

    If teachers were carrying guns in schools and I were a sociopath intent on murder, I would enter the school without a gun and overpower someone who had one. It’s far easier to approach and surprise someone up close than appear to be a threat from a distance.

  25. “I trust my pilot to fly the airplane I trust my pilot to carry a gun”

    I think I could make a fair stab at flying a plane if the pilots got shot in a gunfight with a hijacker. I have piloted a light plane – but that has way less buttons to press.

    I would have to concentrate very hard on the job at hand and not waste too much time cursing and swearing about the sh*t-for-brains pilot who couldn’t even lock the flight-deck door.

  26. Fabien Pruett1, said:

    Well lejacaro. Let’s just disarm the cops too!! Why take the chance someone can get to their gun! Ignorance!!! Yes! If someone is trying to inflict great bodily injury on me wit anything including a baseball bat I want maximum killing power. Guilty! I harm no one. If I’m attacked with deadly force I will return deadly force.

    FanP If you are attacked with deadly force then you are dead and unable to return deadly force.
    And really let’s disarm cops? No one has said that. That is the kind of hysterics those use who do not have logic with which to argue/debate.

  27. Fabien,

    Teachers are screened daily by their collegues for mental stability.
    The UK bobby police did not carry guns. They have far fewer gun murders than we do. So, go ahead and disarm the police, when the society gets well again.

    You appear to hold the illusion that if society were modelled after you then all would be well. You thus seem a prime candidate to take over George Zimmerman’s old hunting grounds.

    Go to any good page with info, from the military, on our assault rifles.
    Check out the effective range. Watch a demo on YouTube.
    Even the automatic ones have been bettered by low, low recoil mechanisms.
    Note that the resemblance is superficial.

    Did you ever do time in the Army, in the Infantry. Thought not.

    You are in my opiinion a candidate for white-coat retrieval, with no release possible.

    Have you had your Bushmaster “Manhood Certificate” yet?

  28. I have watched 8 year old playing sniper on the video game making headshot. Why have watch them play Modern Warfare 3. I find that very disturbing. I would not allow it my home. And we wonder why are children are heartless. They have to been desensitize

  29. Fabien,
    “1, December 19, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    I have heard of the Bushmaster!! I said which one is good for only40yards?? Lol!”

    The Bushmaster is a cosmetically operated upon version of the WW2 carbine. Check the stats on it. A metal stock, do-hickey stick up sights, and a big mag does not improve range.
    The longitudinal axis is too short, quite simply. Do you get it now.

    Give up proof of your 500 yards effective or max range, whichever your boast was..

    I lived in LA, not far from Graumans. Could see Liz Taylor leave her limo and give her kids to the usher to get them seated while she strolled back to her car. No security guard needed.

    I guess it was safer them. But nuts like super-machos with Bushmasters have put that far behind us.

  30. NO ONE likes seeing a tragedy like Newtown, I have grand kids the same age as those slaughtered…it would tear anyone’s heart out.

    But I still have a RRA Ar-15. Got a 100 round drum for it too. People ask why would ever need it for hunting.

    I ask them how many bears they saw looting & killing in the LA Riots? How many Lions & Tigers they saw looting & killing during Katrina?

    I tell them I have never had a deer or elk try to break into my house at 2am…it’s always been PEOPLE….people that I have NO IDEA how they are armed, or what their intentions are to me & my family.

    BTW in Newtown, the killer WAS WEARING BODY ARMOR…so I want armor piercing ammo too.

    I know I know, the anti-gunners want to wave their magic wand and rid the world of guns in their fantasy world…only problem is even if ya could it would never STAY that way. Once technology is invented, there is no getting rid of it.

    And I don’t like it any better than them….but that’s just the way it is, like it or not…

  31. You sir are insulting. You know nothing about me. You throw out accusations with no evidence. I don’t know WHAT happened with Zimmerman. DO YOU??!!!!! What we do know is a young man is dead. Fact. We know the news media has doctored both audio and video recordinags to bring people to a conclusion they want. Was it truly self defence???? I don’t know!! Do you????? If you do know: how!!!????

  32. What’s ironic is the concealed weapon permit does not apply to open and obvious guns. So long as a gun is in it holster and clearly visible no law has been broken. Just make sure it’s registered. That is the law in Michigan. …..

  33. ” And we wonder why are children are heartless. They have to been desensitize” (FP)

    Maybe to some extent, but also, up to a certain age, children (not teens) haven’t developed the capacity to understand consequences of actions, particularly as related to time and duration. The idea of killing someone may not have any connection with the idea of what it means to be dead.

  34. I don’t like the idea of disarming the people but we sure could use an attitude adjustment. The John Wayne and Arnold Schwarzenegger attitudes of settling any dispute with fists or guns is about bullying, not masculinity or justice. Both were disrespectful of women. (Frankly, I liked Roy Rogers)

    I can’t imagine any teacher worthy of the title being willing to carry or use a gun in a school. Can you really see the principal of that school using a gun rather than rushing the shooter? I don’t. A key characteristic of teachers, especially elementary teachers, is nurturing. Guns and nurturing children don’t go together. Guns in the classroom would instill fear, not safety.

    Gun manufacturers have lobbied against changes that would make their guns safer. Politicians need to put people before corporations.

    It isn’t the lack of mental illness care that’s the problem, well, it’s a problem not for this. It’s the kind of medicines they are given. Nearly all, if not all, of the mass murderers have been on psychotropic drugs of one sort or another. Pharmaceutical companies regularly hide any tests or clinical trials that show their drugs to be unsafe. Politicians need to put people before corporations.

  35. DonS;you are soooo right. When that is developing people have there kids watching horrible movies and playing “sniper” and model warfare 3. I have seen my own friends do it. Non gun owners by the way.

  36. Part of nurturing is defending. Any teacher I would have my children with would hopefully be willing to meet deadly force with deadly force. Rushing a shooter just gets you and others dead. Of course if you are disarmed its the only thing you can do. Better learn some Krav Maga. That’s how I spend 3 nights a week. Have NO desire to shoot anyone. Hate that idea!!!

  37. Well, thank you Fabien,for your vote of approval. You probably won’t be impressed by my conclusion, i.e., we need significantly stronger control over the manufacture and distribution and licensing of certain firearms, especially where kids are concerned — parents need to be held strictly accountable for not adequately securing guns in their collections. Sorry.

  38. Fabien Pruett 1, December 19, 2012 at 12:34 pm

    You sir are insulting. You know nothing about me. You throw out accusations with no evidence. I don’t know WHAT happened with Zimmerman. DO YOU??!!!!! What we do know is a young man is dead. Fact. We know the news media has doctored both audio and video recordinags to bring people to a conclusion they want. Was it truly self defence???? I don’t know!! Do you????? If you do know: how!!!????
    It’s entirely possible that you don’t know what happened but some of us have a pretty good idea. The man who shot Trayvon Martin went on a hunt. How do I know? Not by the MSM. Florida’s sunshine law requires all evidence, with some court approved exceptions, to be released to the public. (Maybe the court specifically approves the releases, too) I have listened to the killer’s call to the police dispatcher, watched his walk-thru the day after (his walk-thru and the call are contradictory), read his statements, read and listed to audio of the witnesses, looked at the photos of the defendant and the crime scene, read the autopsy report, etc. Yep, the defendant profiled, followed, went on a hunt and murdered an unarmed teen. If you’d like to know more, you’ll find the undoctored material here:

  39. Gary T asks:
    “People, just consider what if someone other than the murderer at the Newtown elementary school had a gun – would it have made no difference?
    Could at least some of the children have been saved?”

    In theory, it seems plausible that an armed school employee could have succeeded as a hero. But is it also plausible that this would have been the best, or most likely way to have prevented or lessened the tragedy? What are the counter-possibilities that weapons in schools might, through carelessness or deliberate effort, fall into the hands of students? On one day the weapons might be used to avert tragedy. On another they might be used to perpetrate tragedy. The more accessible the weapons are to would-be heroes, the more accessible they are to would-be villains. The less accessible to would-be villains, the less to would-be heroes (decreasing the likelihood that they could be retrieved and readied in time to avert tragedy.

  40. Have NO problem with being held responsible for securing guns just like securing poisons or their alcohol. I am not for any restrictions on law abiding people. But that’s ok. You don’t call names or question my character nor do I yours.;-) I just believe Americans have the absolute right to self defence from both criminal individuals and government

  41. mfitch, and it isn’t just would-be villains. It might very well be an innocent curious child. Wouldn’t that be a real tragedy? An innocent but curious child killing other innocent children.

  42. Armed school employees HAVE saved children before. The Leftist news media just refuse to cover it. Just a few days ago a man in Texas saved the life of a police officer under fire with his handgun. It doesn’t make national news because there is an agenda.”guns are bad”

  43. 12/19/2012
    Guns and the Constitution: “Keep and Bear,” Not “Buy and Sell”:
    In 1989, now-deceased conservative megahero and Amish bearded fcksack Judge Robert Bork said, “I’m not an expert on the Second Amendment, but its intent was to guarantee the right of states to form militia, not for individuals to bear arms.” In the same lecture, he added that “assault weapons could be banned under the Constitution,” and that other restrictions on guns were constitutional. In 1991, he went at the gun rights’ lobby: “[T]he National Rifle Association is always arguing that the Second Amendment determines the right to bear arms. But I think it really is people’s right to bear arms in a militia. The NRA thinks that it protects their right to have Teflon-coated bullets. But that’s not the original understanding.”

    Want more? Bork’s 1997 book Slouching Towards Gomorrah, something of a must-read for a great many on the right, has the following line: “The Second Amendment was designed to allow states to defend themselves against a possibly tyrannical national government. Now that the federal government has stealth bombers and nuclear weapons, it is hard to imagine what people would need to keep in the garage to serve that purpose.” Bork was against gun control, but it was up to the people. For most of his life, he thought that the Constitution was no impediment to gun control laws. Later, he would sign onto an amicus brief in the depraved 2008 DC v Heller decision that finally did carve out an individual right to bear arms. Hey, mtherfcker saw an opportunity and jumped. Who can blame the old bstd for trying to dick over liberals one last time before he starred in Hell’s stage production of Let’s Skullfck Robert Bork with Flaming Demon Cocks? But for most of his life, he was pretty clear: the Second Amendment means what it says.

    But let’s say it doesn’t. Let’s say that, like every guntard everywhere, we ignore the first clause, the “A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State” section that apparently doesn’t mean “well-regulated” or “militia” or “security” of the state at all. Let’s just say that only the rest of it applies, the part that says, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed,” and that individuals can “keep and bear” guns. Now, the Rude Pundit’s no constitutional scholar, but he’s pretty sure that there’s no contorted stretch of definitions that can make “keep and bear” mean “buy and sell.”

    That’s where Article 1, Section 8 comes in. It’s the Commerce Clause, and it gives Congress the power “To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes.” That pretty clearly says that when it comes to buying and selling, there can be regulations. It’s a direct correlation – selling something? That activity can be regulated. The power there is within every limitation one can think of, a power that even Justice John Roberts’ opinion on the Commerce Clause as it applies to the Affordable Care Act can’t undermine.

    The vile Heller decision barely mentions commerce at all. It was about the keeping of arms. In fact, Justice Scalia, whose starring role in the new play in Hell, Antonin Scalia’s A55 Is Repeatedly Sdmized by Lucifer Himself, awaits him, wrote in his Heller majority opinion, “[N]othing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.” So one of the only mentions of the sale of guns in the opinion pretty much says, “Yeah, go ahead and regulate it. That’s your fckng jobs.”

    We don’t even need to get into the affirmation of the consitutionality of gun-free zones, like schools.

    Congress has all the constitutional tools it needs to do something. National laws, not the patchwork of state regulations. Hell, Democrats, you even have the most conservative judges laying down cover fire while you rush the NRA’s walls. ”

    rude pundit

    What say you all? hoping this passes moderation, always hard with the rude one

  44. States don’t have rights only individuals do. States have powers given to them by the individuals of the state. The state can’t take my right.No where in the constitution does it speak of government rights, only powers. The supreme court ruled many years ago where ever the constitution say “the people” that is individuals .

  45. “ask them how many bears they saw looting & killing in the LA Riots? How many Lions & Tigers they saw looting & killing during Katrina?”


    How close do you live to either LA or New Orleans? In fact how close do you live to any Black people? Also why are you so frightened? Is that a healthy way to live your life?

  46. If government had right, that would mean the people could never change their government.. If the government had white the people would have no say over what the government can or cannot do. Because it would have a right. Government oli have power. That power can be taken by the people at anytime. Only individuals have rights. The right to bear arms is a right of individuals. The Supreme Court has ruled on that.

  47. The former government in this country assume the King had right given to him by God. Whatever power to the people have was given to them by the King. Our system of government assume the people have rights given to them by the Creator . Any powers government have are given to them by the people. Therefore the right Bear Arms is a right of the individuals

  48. The burden must ALWAYS be on government as to why an individual is to be disarmed.I.E. criminal behavior. It is not to be on the individual as to why they should be armed. It is our right.

  49. and when the constituion and Bill of Rights written there were no semi automatics, automatics assault weapons, there weren’t millions and millions of people. So the constitution, no matter what Scalia says, seems to me has to be a living document.
    And by the way FP, by your definition then it is people and corporations who have all the rights since as Romney so aptly put it, corporations are people ( parroting the Citizens United of course)

  50. Fabien Pruett:

    Thank you for your absolutist approach to most any discussion of reasonable gun restrictions: Guns are good; gun manufacturers are better (and special); gun users are the best since they personally know what happened in every situation involving guns even if they are situated hundreds of miles away. Three capital letters come to mind.

    Guns are tools; nothing more. When you fall in love with a tool, you forfeit all of your objectivity which you have abundantly demonstrated here. For a lot of gun nuts the tool is simply a phallus symbol of power. That’s a shame for them and all of us. Hopefully, you’re not in that camp of wackos but I’ll reserve my judgment.

  51. @ Mfitch . My side arm is on my side in a level3 bolster where it bongs.where it belongs.very accessible to me and not you or a criminal. Try to take it and you would get an elbow to the head and a kick to the solarplexis if you are lucky.I am trained in how to keep my gun. That is the response level thing to do.
    The point is that a hero having easier access to a gun means the criminal would. That is absured. If that is true we need to disarm the police officers.

  52. Fabien:

    “The state can’t take my right.No where in the constitution does it speak of government rights, only powers.”

    Well, that may be Fabien on Individual Rights but alas our founders might beg to disagree:

    “Every man, and every body of men on earth, possesses the right of self-government… This, like all other natural rights, may be abridged or modified in its exercise by their own consent, or by the law of those who depute them, if they meet in the right of others.”

    ~Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on Residence Bill, 1790.

    Prepare to be “deputed.”

  53. I don’t love guns. I love freedom. My mother grew up in Nazi occupied France. She and her brothers were members of the underground. I was named after their cell leader the was tortured by the Nazis but managed to survive the war. His last name was Fabien. I distrust government left or right. I.. and you have an ABSOLUTE RIGHT to self-defense. How is a100lb woman to defend herself against a 220lb meth head if she is disarmed. Don’t say just give him what he wants. Nevel Chamberland said that of chancellor Hitler and 60,000.000 people died.

  54. Fabien,

    It seems every comment you make is designed to prove what a Manly Man you are, or how competent you are in self defense.

    Overcompensating much?

  55. Yes but you need to amend the constitution to do that if it’s inThe constitution. The bill of rights was passed as a whole therefore it must be repealed as a whole

  56. Fabien:

    “I don’t love guns.”


    “Try to take it and you would get an elbow to the head and a kick to the solarplexis if you are lucky.”


    Substitute “baby rattle” for “it” in sentence two and maybe you’ll get my point.

  57. That was a comment about a criminal taking a gun from a Peron carrying for self defence. That’s what would happen if you tried to take it from a police officer, or it should. I dont love any material thingsThis discussion happens to be about guns. I would talk politics or philosophy or family with you too. I didn’t start this subject I just entered the conversation

  58. Blouise:

    I hear “W” was and is for gun control, too:

    “Supports stronger enforcement of existing gun laws, would provide more funding for aggressive gun law enforcement programs such as Project Exile in Richmond, Virginia
    Supports requiring instant background checks at gun shows by allowing gun show promoters to access the instant check system on behalf of vendors
    Supports law-abiding American’s constitutional right to own guns to protect their families and home
    Supports the current ban on automatic weapons
    Supports banning the importation of foreign made, “high-capacity” ammunition clips.Supports voluntary safety locks
    Opposes government mandated registration of all guns owned by law abiding citizens.”
    Source: GeorgeWBush.com: ‘Issues: Policy Points Overview’ , Apr 2, 2000.


  59. I have a friend who is African American and she and I have discussed lots of current events but haven’t discussed the big gun news, from Columbine until now, for some reason. So in an aside yesterday she asked me what my position was on gun control. I am pretty much a single-issue person so I hadn’t gone too deeply into it, and she is an intellectual so I don’t like to embarrass myself by spouting off when I don’t know enough, and I responded: “I definitely would like to see legislation that nobody can own those huge magazines with 30 bullets in them or the uzi-type machine guns. About handguns and rifles that just shoot one shot at a time, I’m really not in one camp or another, except that I don’t think they should be concealed. If you want a gun, let people know you’re carrying and go ahead and carry, but give notice.”

    She said, “do you think these mass shootings are about gun control?”

    I said, “Probably half about gun control. What’s your take on it?”

    She said, “I think we need more white-man control.”

  60. Fabien:

    While perusing the blog you might find that I totally agree with your right to bear arms. Done so myself. My problem is with your tone and strident language and your somewhat simplistic take on individual rights. No one is advocating losing your personal right to bear arms. You are taking an absolutist approach when I know that most rational folks don’t support unlimited capacity ammo clips and just anybody possessing true assault rifles of which the Bushmaster .223 at issue here clearly is not.

    I’ve written about the topic several times on the blog as recently as this weekend. Calm down. You have more friends than foes here if you give it a chance.

  61. I am extremely calm. That is known as transference.you must be subset. My “tone” is respectful and calm. I’m not a bit upset because this is a conversation that will have NOTHING to do with legislation because you write a blog doesn’t make you an expert. I don’t claim to be. It just relay history and opinion..

  62. Fabien:

    True enough, but when you invite yourself into someone’s house you usually follow the house rules. That may not be your rule but some civility surely is the rule here and beating your chest about some hypothetical, self-aggrandizing self-defense moves qualifies you for the kiddie table. That’s what Mike S was trying to explain. You can ignore this “non-expert” advice, of course.

  63. “Calm down.” -mespo727272


    In general:

    “Why telling someone to “calm down” isn’t such a great idea”

    “First, it derails the discussion and changes the focus from the discussion topic to a commentary on one participant’s emotions (or perceived emotions).

    Second, it’s an order. One person assumes the upper hand and attempts to control the other by telling him or her what to feel. Nobody likes to take orders, and nobody likes to be told what emotion he or she should feel.

    Third, it’s demeaning and invalidating. It tells the other person that it’s not OK to feel whatever he or she is feeling, and that what he or she is saying isn’t important.

    Finally, it’s rarely effective, and it usually escalates a discussion or argument or ends it unhappily.

    “Stick to facts Focus on your own needs instead of attempting to control someone else. If your need is not respected, end the discussion.”

    If someone is acting annoyed or irritated, there’s usually a reason. Telling the person to calm down is only a control tactic and can, in fact, raise the level of annoyance or anger in the other, if there is one. And if the other person isn’t upset in the first place, being told to calm down can easily get him there.”

  64. Or in the alternative, telling someone to calm down is simply good advice to someone acting emotionally rather than rationally.

    The PC approach to language once again rears its stupid head.

  65. You can always tell when your opposition have nothing to say they resort to personal attacks You are ignoring the context of my remark

  66. The content is this somebody tried to take your weapon out of your holster you are carrying. They would receive the same response the police officer would give you if you tried to take theirs

  67. Or in the alternative, telling someone to calm down is simply good advice to someone acting emotionally rather than rationally. -Gene H.

    There’s a saying about “advice” (good or otherwise): Never give “advice.” The wise don’t need it. And fools won’t heed it.

  68. BettyKath,

    You bring up the psychotropic drug problem. Do you suppose (or anyone else here?) that the aggrieved families could bring suit against the FDA and the responsible drug company, and the proscribing doctors?

    Nota Bene:
    All regulatory bodies are subject to the control of the industries which they regulate, directly via recruitment or via Congress. This is for the benefit of all here.

  69. Cross posting from an allied country which has less than thirty gun homocides per capita than we do. Original thread: God and guns…….

    Walter Zwick1, December 19, 2012 at 12:32 pm

    As an American who has lived in Europe for over 40 years, I am continually amazed by my country’s ability to regulate gun ownership and usage. Following the 1996 Dunblane massacre Britain tightened its already strict gun laws. Australia did the same after the Port Arthur incident of the same year. Neither county has had a single mass killing since.

    The essence of the UK law is the following

    1. No automatic weapons are allowed for any purpose.
    2. Every gun owner must be licensed for each gun.
    3. Every gun must be kept in a secure safe and only the licensed owner may have a key.
    4. Only licensed gun owners may purchase ammunition and only in limited quantities for a gun the are licensed to own.
    5. To obtain a license, the owner must how a need for the gun being licensed. Self defense is never an accepted reason.
    6. To obtain a license, the prospective gun owner must provide references and be interviewed by the police.
    7. No person who has ever received a prison sentence of over 5 years my get a gun license.
    8. No person who has received any custodial sentence may even apply for a license.
    9. There are strict conditions preventing those who being treated or have been treated for mental illness from receiving a license.
    10.Only specially authorized security staff may carry a gun or have a loaded gun in any vehicle. There is no right-to-carry for ordinary citizens.
    11. There a stiff prison sentences and draconian fines for any violation of the gun laws.

    As a result, The UK with a population of 602 million had only 51 gun homicides in 2011 while the US had over 10,000.
    Other than typos on “inability” and “60.2 million” it is fine as a starter.

  70. Fabien,

    Here’s my problem with you. We on this blog have been mostly discussing this issue since Saturday. There are two other articles with over 800 comments so far. All sides of this discussion have been represented from all ends of political spectrum. Many of those comments came from people who are gun owners or who support the 2nd Amendment. Some of these people are experts in firearms.

    You arrived in mid discussion making your points and that is fine, this is a free speech/free thought place after all. You delivered the first insult way above calling Leejcarroll ignorant and Lee actually responded to you civilly. I basically attacked you for calling Lee ignorant, when he was just making a point. Beyond that though, continually through all of your initial comments was your professing your expertise re weaponry and self defense. that is annoying to me because throughout this long discussion we have had comments from people who I know at least have your weaponry expertise, but are probably way ahead of you. There is also at least one martial arts expert here as well.

    My particular comments were aimed at deflating your pompous authority and frankly to make fun of it. I’ve been here a long time, people know me, but like everyone else when I’ve been pompous and/ or wrong people have deflated my overacting ego. That’s what free discussion is about.

    One last thing to clear up many come here thinking this is a “liberal” website, it isn’t. Our host Johnathan Turley is a Law Professor, expert in constitutional law and as a lawyer a defender of Constitutional rights. He is not a doctrinaire liberal, but a believer in following the Constitution.
    We have all sorts of people regularly commenting here who don’t fit neatly into political categories including me. Welcome aboard, stay awhile, but if you can’t stand the heat, which in your case is fairly mild then……………………….kitchen.

  71. Malisha,

    re.white man control.

    Gandhi when asked of what he thought of English civiilization, replied:
    “What civilization? I haven’t noticed any.”

    FYI, Gandhi was an english dandy educating himself in England in his youth.

  72. Fabien:
    Perhaps it is true that you are competent in weapon use and retention. Most people are not. Certainly most primary school teachers and administrators are not.. “Train them” is much easier said than done. Add the confusion, stress, and unpredictability of a real situation, and consider which has greater probability: that the weapons will achieve their intended purpose, or that the situation will be made worse, rather than better. I’m skeptical.

  73. Blouise:

    I hear “W” was and is for gun control, too: (mespo)

    sshhh … Fabien is doing more for the cause than I could ever accomplish … not quite as much as ol’ Phil did but still effectively using the split screen to my position’s benefit. I do so looove free speech!

  74. MikeS, When have you had your ego deflated here? This is not a ball bust question, just curious.

    I have no opinion on Fabien. But why don’t all you legacy commenters and guest bloggers just cut the bullshit and tell Fabien there’s a seniority pecking order here. It’s quicker and much more forthright.

  75. @Mike First “ignorant”is not a personal attack. When some one says that a Bushmaster AR type rifle is only good for 40 yards that is ignorant. A base one off the shelf should give you a 12′ grouping at 300 yards. To say that comment was ignorant is fact. I don’t claim to be a Martial Arts expert. I do train with law enforcement people and am trained by law enforcement people. The head instructors at one of two dojo I train at is A detective for the city PD. I am pretty good at keeping my firearm from being taken as well as taking your if you get in arms reach. That is the training I chose to take. You don’t need to be a martial arts expert to be an expert in weapons retention any more than you need to be a expert in the triathlon to be an expert with a bicycle. I contend if you had a sign in front of a school that said “members of our staff are trained in the competent use of firearms and deadly force will be used to defend our children and staff” it will be safer than a school with a sign that says”gun free zone.absolutely NO firearms are allowed on the premises” the comment that most of my remarks are macho stuff is also ignorant. I have given so many comments on constitution. Anyone that knows me knows I am far from a macho person. I’m actually very timid. I just don’t want me or you to be a helpless victim. Of course ALL this being said, RUNNING is the first thing ANYONE expert or not should do if given the opportunity. However if yo are not allowed to run you must fight with purpose and ferocity.

  76. AP’s comments about the likely uselessness or inadvisability of telling someone to “calm down” is right on target. However, if I understood what Gene said, there is nothing PC about it. It simply is good psychological advice. In attempting to defuse what may be an accelerating negative-emotional situation, you don’t want to make the “angry” person feel defensive or put down. Then everything can explode ito total emotional irrationality and the original point cannot be discussed or addressed.

  77. Fabien Pruett
    1, December 19, 2012 at 5:11 pm
    All I have done is answered other people’s comments. Did realize this was a private party.


    This is not a private party … please continue!

  78. It’s all good. I have always been calm and it didn’t bother me when he said it to me. I took it for what it was .flailing.

  79. DrSigne,

    It has been my experience that every field is vulnerable to certain amounts of PC behavior, including psychology. It’s not telling someone to calm down that is antithetical to dispute resolution. It’s how you tell someone to calm down that can be antithetical to dispute resolution. The how is often hard to judge in a communications medium of limited bandwidth such as blogging. Bereft of the usual cues one reads that can indicate that calming a person requires an adjustment in tactics, it is much harder to do in this arena. However, the delivery of a message is often more important than the content is in gaining acceptance. If this were not so, people would not be as susceptible to either advertising or propaganda as they are.

    Also, I’m not a fan of the ideas of Marshall Rosenberg and the nonviolent communication movement. It’s a bunch of pop psychology new agey well-intentioned bullshit that is little more than PC in the guise of psychology. After looking at your website, I’m certain you will likely disagree with this statement. Then again, that’s the beauty of free speech. Agreement is not required.

  80. @Mfitch. How can you “make a situation worse” than someone walking in with gun OF ANY TYPE and shoot unarmed people at will. A.22 will kill you dead. A shotgun designed strictly for hunting will shoot you dead. Really, another ignorant comment. Not STUPID. Just not well thought out.

  81. Fabien,

    How we come over is not easy to determine. Keep trying. Both NickS and I have been there. But NickS answers for his words. I oppose your position. Guns in the hands of people lead to death. !0,000 a year in the USA has been mentioned.

    You might get yourself clawed here, but it is not a private party AFAIK.
    But your adamant attitude does not ease a dialogue, as you don’t seem to want one. Your independence is admirable, but hardly a winning stance in social conditions. We are not armed, most of us, is my presumption.

    I challenged your effective range figures of now you say 12′ grouping at 300 yards. The measure (‘) as expressed as I know it would be 12 feet.
    Hardly an effective fire. You must mean 12 inch group. I dont myself know of anyone from a lying position with a stabdard M1 rifle who can do a 12 inch group at 200 yards.

    The weapons is comparable to a 1945 Army carbine. And the latter is a fully automatic weapon. It was used as a chauffor and an officer’s defense weapons.

    Maybe the Buckmaster is bettter.
    Do you have any proof?.

    Your friends in the French resistance, do not today carry assault weapons and never did. So your association has no significance.

    I have talked with one born in the Vosge mountain district where Sen Daniel Inouye got his Medal of Honor The french now Swedish, lives in Stockholm today. A three hundred yard range would be useless in that terrain.

  82. What can be more stressful than a person going through shutting unarmed people. Increase the pay for administraighter that go through the required course and prove their competency as we do those that speak a second language in many districts.

  83. I can do a 16″ grouping with my mini14 at 300 yards with a 4 power scope. It is not compatible with the M1carbine .30 carbine I have one. That is a pop gun. It was never intended to be a combat rifle. It was ment to replace hand vu us for artillery and officers. 5.56 or .223 is a main battle round.

  84. “Fabien Pruett1, December 19, 2012 at 5:43 pm

    @Mfitch. How can you “make a situation worse” than someone walking in with gun OF ANY TYPE and shoot unarmed people at will. ….”

    That is the prerogative we entrust to the state, ie using violence to resolve conflicts. If no one but sane and well balanced persons were allowed to have weapons, then we all would be much safer.
    The state has with our agreement the right to regulate, except as prohibited in the Constitution.

    And it is not a snark when I ask you if you do much profiling.
    Your comprehension of reality tends toward stereotyping it, as I see it.

    I am interested in how you became Fabien.

  85. I think I need one of these to defend myself against the scary stuff on TV

    OMIGAWD I feel allll…moist…

    Better check some reviews like

    I love that there is a choice of colors – so I can match outfits.

    It’s definitely the sort of thing I need in case of burglars.

  86. “Fabien Pruett1, December 19, 2012 at 5:52 pm

    I can do a 16″ grouping with my mini14 at 300 yards with a 4 power scope. It is not compatible with the M1carbine .30 carbine I have one. That is a pop gun. It was never intended to be a combat rifle. It was ment to replace hand vu us for artillery and officers. 5.56 or .223 is a main battle round.”

    From prone or free standing? And scopes are recent additions.. Actual use of them in combat is rare. And scopes does not help in a defensive attack at short range. I remember the M1 as the standard issue. What a popgun!

    Not to be confused with the carbine which I have already named as a defensive weapon for chauffors and offiicers with siide arms.

  87. Fabian,
    the Our Lady of Angels Fire was a tragedy that every kid in the chicago area heard about and has never forgotten. I was in 2nd grade in a catholic school in a near north suburb of Chicago when the fire happend. The reports I remember was that two school kids originally admitted to starting the fire, but they recanted and were not prosecuted. It was an accidental tragedy made worse by lax fire codes. The fire codes and safety measures that followed made millions of kids across the country safer. One more example how government can regulate and make the world safer.

  88. I was nearly commenting on someone saying the Bushmaster 5.56 is only good for 40yards and is compatible to the M1carbine. The M1 garland was a main battle rifle. 30.06. Awesome for its time. The scope has been around a long time, however the comedy was to the accuracy credibility of the rifle, not my shooting. Mini14 same ammo as an AR 15 M16

  89. Idealist707 where were they when he killed those kids? He could of done it with a .22 a shotgun a machete as far as that goes. Law enforcement can’t be all places at all times and I wouldn’t want them to be. That would be the beginning of a police state. Because we entrust other to use deadly force does not take away our right to self defence or our obligation to defend others. A lot was been made about the type of weapon. Truthfully a non issue. Killing 6 year olds is unfortunately easy. :-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(

  90. @Rafflaw. In 1979 a convicted arsonist confessed to setting the fire that killed 95 in that school. You can Google it.

  91. :MikeS, When have you had your ego deflated here? This is not a ball bust question, just curious.
    I have no opinion on Fabien. But why don’t all you legacy commenters and guest bloggers just cut the bullshit and tell Fabien there’s a seniority pecking order here. It’s quicker and much more forthright.”


    My ego has been deflated many many times and I have apologized for mistakes many, many times. I’ve also lost heated arguments and admitted it. As for seniority pecking order, it exists only in people’s minds. People like OS & Blouise are relative “newbies” compared to Mespo, Rafflaw, Myself, Mike Appleton, Bob esq and AY.. Yet they are at least as respected as we are, perhaps more so. Elaine, Nal and Gene are relatively “newbies” compared to us “oldtimers” and they are guest bloggers. The “pecking” order is determined by the content. You’re now a regular Nick, it really is about the content.

    PS: Please forgive me because I’ve left so many esteemed people out, it’s just that any list of respected regulars would be a very long one and even those I have’t mentioned have made great contributions here and are just as Jews say: Mizhpuchah (family).

  92. “MikeS sucks!”

    Sling T,

    Many times I have and have been complemented for it.


    As far as my ego being pricked, that’s simply because it would take a howitzer to make a dent, speaking of course about the new rage in duck hunting weaponry.

  93. MikeS, I take you @ your word. However, in my several months here I’ve not seen any apologies from you, or many of the regulars. Is not responding to a humbling point made by someone else, “passive aggresive apologizing?” And, regarding these wrong thoughts of a pecking order “only existing in peoples minds”, where else would they exist? You do realize collusion is one of the most difficult crimes to prove, because it usually only exists in “the minds” of those colluding. And, MikeS, I am not paranoid, just a professional observor of human behavior. There is a distinct A Team pathology here..and it sucks. I don’t want to be part of the A Team, never have anywhere. But I do love to poke fun @ it.

  94. Mike S, one of the few contexts in which you can make an honest mistake about being complimented and complemented. :grin:

  95. Fabien,

    Let’s hold ourselves to what you wrote.. It was you who told us of your attaining a 14 inch group at 300 yards with a 3X scope.. Now you seem to mean that it was rifle characteristics which you meant. I asked for neutral test results, and got none.
    I simply asked if your group was achieved standing or prone. I also said that a scope was meaningless on a defensive weapon at short range.

    You have dodged the questions and statements made.
    Stop pretending being an expert. You will always here be asked to prove it.

    Don’t hide from the real issues behind the childrens need to be protected.
    Strict gun control as they do in the UK is one step on the way.
    Their gun death rate is one part in thirty of ours. You can divide 10,000 (ours) by 30 to get their total.

    One said here earlier that we don’t have nukes or other effective weapons against the government. So, our bodies will have to do. And will in today’s nation.

    Meanwhile, we will be safe from citizen guns.
    That is enough for me for now. The culture of violence wiil take longer to fix.

  96. last week teachers were lazy union thugs who couldn’t hold a job in the “real” world

    this week we want to give them guns and weapons training to protect our precious children

    how about combat pay?

  97. Nick S,

    That an “our gang” group exists is true. MikeS has named only some of them, giving their years of service here. GeneH is a newcomer with first GB in 2011. Reviewed by OS as “complex” as Í remember. Taken as an example only, not pointing fingers..

    MikeS is my idol and model, but perfect—-not at all. We all wax pompous at times. Or stumble in thought and speech. And then we like to hear of it from those who otherwise rally to our cry. It is natural, but a bore that it is needed here by anyone here, regardless. Such a shame for such a fine blog, but our world is imperfect.

    Anything said is fair game for shooting down. That buddies stick together is not confined to JTs. Seems universal. My experiences are not at issue for the moment. You are getting the skit now. And I am here for you because I don’t like bullies, of which some here are of that type.

    But that is how it is for now. Until it changes. As for not wanting to become a member ot the gang, that is BS and you know it. But human too.

    You and other tongues were hanging out asking to be invited when a gathering was “discussed”. We are all suckers for such crap.
    Odd that such talented people need such defenses. MikeS puts his ass on the line and that I admire. And he returns to the most idiotic comments with warmth and instruction. Kind of like the PC method that some dislike.

    Arab Proiverb: Me against my brother. He and I against our cousins.
    We against the clan. And the clan against the tribe or invading strangers.

    What was said about advice: The wise don’t need it and the stupid won’t heed it. But I like the role. Strengthens my TA parent role. Speaking as a child of course.

  98. “Yet they are at least as respected as we are, perhaps more so. (Mike S)

    Only because we possess bigger … ahem … sticks.

    And please, anybody, pete, Gene, anybody willing to play off my “pricked” word choice … I was a straight-man looking for the take-it.

    ” … honest mistake about being complimented and complemented. ” (Malisha)

    Well played!

  99. ID, I know these folks quite well, as do you. It’s fascinating to watch them deal w/ newcomers. I can visualize them marking their computers and scenting the keys w/ their paws. The women are ok, they don’t have the testosterone issue. Estrogen and the loss of it shows @ times, but I’m used to that having grown up w/ sisters and having been married for 35 years. I’ve found over my lifetime it’s easier to make female friends and acquaintances. You don’t have to deal w/ that alpha dog horseshit.

  100. Nick,

    If you haven’t seen me apologize you haven’t been looking enough. As far as taking me at my word, in the context of your later remarks about passive aggressive apologies, your acceptance of my word was highly passive aggressive. “A” team really? Look the nice thing here is you can play any game you want. You want to play ironic outsider pricking the fatuousness of the “in crowd”, be my guest.

    My particular game is that I don’t play games. The Me you get here is the Me that is and you can accept that or not. As for being a professional observer, well actually that’s what I’m trained in. My observance of you is that you made your debut here coming on like gangbusters, I could cite chapter and verse but it’s not worth my research time. You enterred attacking like someone who was going to mark himself an Alpha and when it didn’t go over well you felt rejected. I tried to explain that to you, but you preferred your outsider role. Cool, if that’s what floats your boat, but the silly point you miss is you’re already an insider by dint of your frequent comments, that’s the true criteria.

    Now because I am also “an observer” I notice that in your observations you have missed that I disagree with Mespo and Gene on gun control, while agreeing with Raff and Elaine. Gene and I disagreed on voting for Obama. It seems the “in crowd” doesn’t have homogeny. Now part of the fact that we treat eachother civilly is that we are cyber friends of long standing, but is that wrong, or just affinity? Play it any way you want Nick, it is your game. I understand your outsider game, played it myself for many years until I realized what I already knew experiencially, we all are alone within ourselves and sometimes we can let ourselves connect with others to feel less alone. That however never changes the fact of our human condition. I do my thing, you do yours, if we can somehow make a connection, great, if we can’t no problem.

  101. nick/ID:

    Anything worthwhile has standards and hence keepers of those standards. You can claim victim-hood or being picked on but, by and large, the regulars here have earned their stripes and have reached a consensus on acceptable behavior. While the final decision rests with our host, Professor Turley, the regulars have considerable input on policy and content. That status comes from, in most cases, years of considered commentary and mutual respect for the intellect and humanity of the regulars which includes both guest bloggers and valued commentators like the fine folks whose names keep reappearing. Personally, I make no apologies for the regulars or the standards for argumentation, civility, and intolerance of fools, braggarts, and ideologues that this blog so masterfully and uniquely represents.

  102. ID707,

    Flattery will get you everywhere as my father used to say.


    I was ticked and pricked that you stopped playing scrabble with me. As far as the bigger sticks go well I’ve never been one to measure, nor rely on measurement as a criteria.


    You’re a treasure here, but watch out you may wind up in the “in crowd” and Nick will aim to take you down despite your dearth of testosterone.

    But enough of this, I ‘ve got a good Norwegian murder mystery to read.

  103. Mike S:

    “But enough of this, I ‘ve got a good Norwegian murder mystery to read.”


    Stieg Larsson’s Millennium Trilogy?

  104. Mespo,

    Read Stieg and loved it. Saw the Swedish film and American film and loved them both, but I ‘m partial to Daniel Craig. I’m on my third book of the Harry Hole series and this man Nesbo is a fabulous mystery writer with a compelling hero. This is a Norway based series. Now to read.

  105. Mike S,

    I will return but as I told Bob, I have been unusually busy and the concentration necessary to make a good showing eludes me. I seem to be getting tired more easily … or more often … which I suspect has something to do with the aging process.

    I will make the effort as I do enjoy all my opponents.

  106. Idealist707 sorry I have been at the dojo, sleeping and attending to other things. 14″ group is from sit down bagged position. On a good day I can do it standing or prone. Again I was simply speaking the the weapon. I was answering the ignorant statement that was made that the Bushmaster 5.56 was only good for 40 yards.my Bushmaster is good for 500 and my Mini 14 is good for 300. Not sure YOUR point.

  107. To all,

    Nice to see my comment and challenge to NickS got such a fine response.
    I wrote it with that intention, and honestly other intentions too.

    If I express something flattering, it is not meant as such, but instead for emphasizing the importance of what was seen by my eyes..

    I still stand by my description, but we agree that it is natural. For every dissension cited by MikeS, there are 5 times as much of running to the rescue, or ganging up, or just being quiet when it is a buddy who makes a fool of himself. Maybe that is how society works.

    And some of you were brought up learning how to exclude, regardless of merit. From announcements displaying private communications, to referrals to hotels visited, to first aid kits for children received as a child visiting a Senator. Yes, you do know the game. And being here has been a learning experience for me. Remember I was never a part of it. So it is all new.

    We need to share, to show compassion for each others needs.

    (I recently was gazed upon with compassionate warmth by a young dinner guest, a new acquintance, where I was not host.. Nick may note that this was a first time from a man for me. You and I share a preference for women. My reasons, your reasons? We men are emotionally handicapped we so often hear clichéd, and ball-busting is not always the best way of buddying, choosing just one of many ways of expression.)

    If you fear, you tend to continue to fear. My fear here has more or less disappeared. Not that I will write better, but maybe more like other cool heads here. Not looking, as some do, for snarks, open or hidden.

    Malisha was openly praised. I think she can be a big gun. So much seen and so much learned. If she has time for us. Other’s faux pas are ignored. A quick quip with no sharp points aimed or implied is always a winner.
    She is always dedicated to forwarding the conversation, although she exerts her right to passion, just as Mike does.

    I use names, I write without forethought. My intent is not to injure.
    That’s it.

    And to the anchorites: I bid you well also. You know who you are. Your handicaps are yours, Keep them. Getting people to fit in boxes is difficult, but easy work for others.

    I consider always the sources of comments, and at times even reflect over the content—–seldom rewarding.

  108. Fabien,

    A small point: sitting bagged is not a combat position to recommend.

    Your superiority of knowledge is not access to a lead position, nor generally an aid of your cause, if used in an unpsychological and clumsy way.

    Consider why you need to counteract ignorance in such a fashion.

    70 wasted years says that.

    I’ve made my points for now. I trust you are satisfied.

  109. Gene H, in the early 70s I had a night job in an all-night deli in NYC. At 3:00 a.m. each morning a guy would come in and have coffee and a bagel and tip me a quarter (which was a 50% tip) and chat with me while I cleaned up my station. I then found out that he was feeding me lines to talk about and then selling one-liners that I had said while we chatted and laughed; he was a comedy writer. So one night on late-night TV Marilyn Michaels used a line I had said to him the night before. I asked him why he never let me know or cut me in or helped me become a comedy writer too and he said, “Are you kidding? 90% of your stuff I can’t sell; it goes right over people’s heads.” :mrgreen:

  110. About “calm down”: I did daycare for a living at one point. I also cared for a kid who had Asperger’s Syndrome. I learned (both ways) that saying “calm down” would result in a very paradoxical response. If I wanted a kid to calm down I would drop my voice, almost to a whisper, and say, often, “hmmmmm…just a minute, I have to think.” Then they would calm down.

  111. ID, I may have told you this but the demographic w/ whom I do the best are lesbians who love women. The man hating lesbians by definition don’t compute. But women who love women are the best for me, no sexual horseshit and no alpha dynamic. There are a lot of them where I live.

  112. Idealist707. What IS your point??? You are commenting on something I have not made a point on. The point I made .. again; follow closely: a comment was made that the Bushmaster AR15 type 5.56 rife “is only good for 40 yards” I said “no not true” “mine is good for 500 yards” this has nothing to do with the shooter. It is the function of the rife when stationary “bagged”. I also said a Bushmaster AR15 TYpe rifle “standard off the shelf is capable of 12″grouping at 300 yards. I then said “my Mini 14 is capable of 14″ grouping at 300 yards” Actually it’s12-16. I said on a good day I can do that standing with a 4 power scope. Didn’t say that was defensive or “combat” shooting. The scope is so I can see the bullseye at 300 yards. Now this has NOTHING to do with”combat ” shooting. It was merely a commentary on an ignorant statement about The Bushmaster AR15type rifle “only being good for spraying bullets at 40 yards” PLEASE TELL ME IN ALL OF WHAT I JUST SAID IS WHAT IS TECHNICALLY INACCURATE .Surly you are not that dense and you are just trying to redirect and make my statement out to be something it wasn’t.

  113. TPMMuckraker
    A History Of The Rifle Used In The Sandy Hook Massacre

    When he died in April 1997 at his home in Palm City, Fla., Eugene Stoner was a millionaire with about 100 patents to his name and, in the words of an obituary that ran in The New York Times, a reputation as “one of the world’s foremost designers of and experts on small arms.” In the late 1950s, working as an engineer for an upstart California company called ArmaLite, a division of the Fairchild Aircraft & Engine Corporation, Stoner had developed the AR-15 rifle.

    After some bureaucratic resistance and early mechanical issues, the AR-15, rebranded by the military as the M16 and manufactured by Colt’s Firearms Division in Hartford, Conn., made its way onto the battlefields of Vietnam and into the American popular imagination. Its profile became synonymous with the term “assault rifle,” and it stood in contrast to its Soviet counterpart, the AK-47, designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov in 1947. Lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, and magazine-fed, four variants of the M16 — the M16A1/A2/A3/A4 — have been used by the military since the 1960s. A more compact version of the M16A2, the M4 carbine, was introduced in the 1990s.

    When Adam Lanza stepped into Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., last Friday, he was holding one of the millions of civilian descendants of Stoner’s design.

    Two handguns and a rifle were recovered at the scene of the massacre, but reports have indicted that Lanza used the .223 semi-automatic rifle to shoot most, if not all, of his victims, including his mother, Nancy Lanza, to whom the gun was apparently registered. On Saturday, Connecticut’s chief medical examiner, H. Wayne Carver II, said that each of the victims had received multiple gunshot wounds.

    “My sensibilities may not be the average man, but this probably is the worst I have seen or the worst that I know of any of my colleagues having seen,” Carver told reporters.

  114. Yes.. horrible! The same carnage could have been done with a shotgun designed specifically for hunting when directed at unarmed people. :-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(

  115. Fabien:

    Ballistically speaking, and given the variance in muzzle velocity and projectile diameter the carnage per victim would be worse with the shotgun equipped with 0 or 00 or 000 buckshot. However, the increased rate of fire with the Bushmaster .223 would have suggested more victims than the typical 5 round hunting shotgun. That appeared to have been the shooters intent.

  116. Shotgun is easily reloaded as you shoot. Regardless. It won’t stop until someone else with a gun stops him or he decides to stop

  117. NickS,

    Nooooo! You hadn’t told me. Just exactly what your relationships were is not clear to me.
    For myself, one of my first lady friends here in Sweden was a DA, and into ladies and well-equipped men. Although I was not interesting after a test, we remained friends. and I shared my lady friends (and a qualified buddy) with her. Not regularly, however.
    Another was a successful artist, who after an entertaining career as a Swedish masseuse in SF, returned to here.
    She helped my girlfriend over the threshold. And then there was………!

  118. FP:

    It’s a lengthy reloading process per round fired compared to the 30 round combat banana clip of the .223 giving first responders more time to react and potential targets to flee the area.

  119. SWM,

    Thanks for that.

    Then the AR-15, which Fabien says he owns and uses, is NOT a single-pull=single-bulllet semiautomatic rifle. It is the M16, which is clearly, I believe, an automatic weapon, ie pull and hold down until you’re out of rounds. The M16 has of course a semiatomatic mode selectable.
    In automatic mode the rearing action is minimal to say the least, making it easy to stay on target and selectively spray a wide angle.

    The inventor deserved his money.

    I saw a brief demo on YouTube and it had definitely advanced the technology of automatic weapons. The M! carbine had no range of accuracy, although it could feed 600 rounds per minute (memory from 1959).
    The BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) required two men to operate from a mount in combat.
    The most modern 1959, but little used was a blowback, light short axis weapon. Little better than the M1 carbine, previously mentioned.

    The M14 then would be a semi-automatic weapon not generally used in an assault mode.

    The dynamics of handling attests to its light weight. The bullet caliber and muzzle velodity are aimed at effective fire power and ammo light weight.

    Better a moveable soldier and preferably from different vantage points tham a BAR or the even heavier M30.

    The military repetoire includes other specialty weapons for sniping, etc.


    PS Next week I’ll tell you how we made light wands a la Kenobi back in 1950. Simple household items will do. (kenobi was not film then if you are wondering)

  120. You only need push the shell into the mag as you shoot. You NEVER need to run out. Agai,n the only thing that will stop a mad man with ANY gun is someone else with a gun. Some one with a sword would have killed those children. The real problem is a VERY SICK society that finds depictions of the suffering of other people entertaining. Natural Born Killers, Saw, Hostel, No Country For Old Men the Halloween series. People actually allow their children watch that crap. Then they give them video games in which they methodically execute people in games like “Sniper” Even the games in which heros do battle against bad guys like Modern Warfare desensitized these kids at a VERY young age. Stop slamming the tool and fi x this SICK society.

  121. FP:

    “The real problem is a VERY SICK society that finds depictions of the suffering of other people entertaining.”


    Well that’s a broad statement. Most people I know don’t enjoy depictions of suffering and if they do it’s in the context of a movie or work of fiction. That does not translate to acting in that way. The problem is exonerating gun from the solution which gun radicals often do. There is no ABSOLUTE right to possess weapons anywhere in the world. Why do some think they have the right here.

  122. Because we are not subject of the crown. Our Constitution says we do. The Supreme Court affirmed it. We having natural right to self defense. Without the tools to exercise at right that right is denied

  123. FP:

    You can try that “not a subject of the crown stuff” as you are being led away in handcuffs after driving your tank through down town LA. As I recall that was that wacko’s defense too. You can keep it in your pocket as you try to get through security with a handgun in your pants at the airport, too. Your right to play macho man with your gun comes with a limit whether you recognize it or not. The jails are full of guys who think their rights are absolute. What’s one more.

  124. Yup. What mespo said.
    Not ever the free speech right of the First Amendment is absolute. Don’t believe it? Make a joke about having a bomb in your luggage at an airport TSA security checkpoint.

  125. I’m not macho far from it. Doesn’t bother me be leveloff in handdcuffs I will take that chance. However I have no broken no laws. Men died on the battlefield for our freedom. Handcuffs don’t bother me.

  126. “Men died on the battlefield for our freedom.”

    Men died on the battlefield so that people could have guns.

  127. FP, do you mind pink handcuffs? That is what my daughter carries. She likes pink. They are not; however, fuzzy. Smith & Wesson does not make fuzzy handcuffs.

  128. I went through the security checkpoint in the New York Supreme Court (Manhattan) one time and they seized and confiscated my grey plastic handcuffs that I was about to use for a collage. They cost me five cents at a garage sale but they were irreplaceable! The cops confiscated them and wouldn’t let me stop to pick them up on the way out of the courthouse because they said it was illegal to carry handcuffs in NY unless you were LE. I said they were not handcuffs but toys. They fussed at me and threatened me with arrest and I fussed back at them and said they had to give me a receipt or they had deprived me of property without due process and finally the woman I had gone to court with grabbed me by the shoulder and spun me around (she’s taller and stronger) and yelled: “Malisha come with me NOW I’ll give you new handcuffs I have a drawer FULL OF THEM at home!” I was so shocked (at her giving up her Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate herself) that I followed her into the courtroom.

    Judge Lewis Friedman presided that day. He has since died on the treadmill. I am not making this up. Those cops kept my toy handcuffs. Oh, and she was lying; she never gave me any handcuffs and didn’t have a drawer full of them either. (Other S&M stuff maybe, I never asked.)

    Boo Hoo.

  129. “they said it was illegal to carry handcuffs in NY unless you were LE.”

    You might try carring a pack of zip-ties sometime.
    http://imgur.com/eA3FS (Zoom in – thay have bunches of them )
    Cops seem to think that they make very effective cuffs.

    NYPD – bringing you the S side of S&M

  130. Fabien,

    I liked what you said at 12:34. It is a sick society. Anybody can give over a million examples, seriously Our whole lives are saturated by them.

    I have seen it invade Sweden since 1968, and there is only two places it comes from. Our old fascists and the USA.

    I love my country, served it both as a civiian and in the military. But I don’t love its system of governance as it in fact is today, and sadly has been for over 100 years—at least. I am neither a radical, a FNL supporter, nor a desertor as some were here in 1968. I was a rube. rootless and looking for adventure and Swedish blondes. I did not wake up then. Not until when Obama came along in 2008. He got me interested. And here I am today.

    Good luck with yours.

    And the million is not hyperbole.
    That figure could be met and exceeded by reading the acts of law passed for bribes, the regulations removed from empowered government agencies books, the number of lobbies, the passages in and out of industry who suborned their oaths when assuming official office, etc etc.

    Not a damn bit of it is necessary for either our security or our welfare.

    You all there can best describe your lives than I can. But the view from here is pretty sad to see.

    I can’t do it from here. The real question is if all of you can there.

  131. Malisha,

    How careless of you. If some anonymous person should just mention your brick and mortar, why then the Care General Delivery will have at least a hundred packages containing pairs of handcuffs waiting for you.

    And then you’ll be faced by thanking for the polka dot ones, the fluffy pink rabbit ones with real long ears, the 12 identical ones in RWB, etc.

    It they were sent home the postman would report you to the FBI for suspicious activities. What activities? Doesn’t matter nowadays.

    Like in the 1934 KGB, give us a suspect and we will create a case against him/her.

    Look carefuly if your next president has a birth mark on his balding forehead or sports a moustache. .

  132. I can’t argue there except to say this administration will only accelerate the decline. Centralized power and micromanagement is always dangerous. I am a small government Liberal. I am not a leftist. There is a big difference. Peace to you and yours. :-)

  133. If as Fabien says this is a sick society, a notion that I find viable, might he not consider that one of the aspects of this sickness is some people’s fascination with guns, which after all are tools for hurting people and animals.

  134. I don’t have a fascination with guns. The subject of this forum is guns. I will talk scuba diving if you would like. Jesus also. String theory is pretty cool. I see a true phobia of guns among some. I am amazed at the ignorance of the medi a reporting on them. Calling common firearms “machine’guns” “automatic weapons” none of which is true. We have always had easy access to guns in this country. Really nothing new other than the deep rooted sickness that has changed. I hold guns no more responsible than I do cars for the many thousands of drunk driiving deaths we have every year.I do appreciate that most of you don’t call names and we can have a civil discussion about this. Of course we will solve nothing here. Nor will gun control.

  135. Studies have indeed linked increased violence with gun fascination and unregulated gun ownership in this country, and probably, in “this culture.” Drop back a nightmare or two and you find a guy getting thousands of bullets through the mail who then shoots up a movie theater, etc. There may not be a direct and isolated strictly causal relationship, but now law that we have passed as a society or as a nation has been based on the necessity for “a direct and isolated strictly causal relationship.” We do what we can with the law to engineer what we can with our society so that it is measurably better after passage and implementation of the law.

    When my kid wanted to ride his motorcycle, he would say to me, “Mom, more people get killed in cars than on motorcycles every day.” After he had an accident in which he was nearly killed, his bike was wrecked, and he broke his right hand (which meant his income was negatively affected), he said, “I’m not getting back on the bike; it’s not safe.”

    We have laws to try to deal with the problems we have, and we try to regulate our system to decrease the problems. Imagining or insisting that we have to PROVE that one law will definitely solve all related problems, before we enable ourselves to start dealing with it effectively, is counterproductive.

    We do need gun control. We do need common sense. We do need what my friend calls “white man control.” We do need studies to direct us as to where to go next. We don’t need artificial “sine qua non” type analysis of every bit of the mess we’re in; we need to move forward with all deliberate speed.

  136. Really????? And what studies are they??* read Professor john Lott’s book “More Guns Less Crime* I have just giving you 1 source please give me 1 for your studies. Using voice activated texting please forgive that it is not always typing accurately. Wonderful technology though

  137. Now let me tell you what I will support. I would support mandatory prison time for stealing a firearm. 10 years I would support 10 20 life for using a firearm in the commission of a crime. 10 years if you pulled a gun. 20 years if you x different discharge a gun. 25 years if somebody is injured that is 25 to life if someone is injured liverl or die

  138. Sorry Fabien, I don’t do assignments unless I’m taking courses for credit. You can continue to believe what you believe, I have no problem with that. Also, you can give me an F in your course on how to think about the problems we face. It won’t hurt my grade point average at all. :mrgreen:

  139. No problem this is a friendly conversation. But see, this is part of the problem. People speak that of which they do not know. You said ” Studies have indeed linked increased violence with gun fascination and unregulated gun ownership” You throw that out as a fact. Please site your source I have sited mine. That’s just one. Also FBI uniform statistics shows the state’s with the least regulation on guns for LAW ABIDING CITIZENS have the lowest crime rates. How ever you don’t FEEL that emotionally. It’s a phobia.

  140. “The NRA’s Board of Directors is supposedly bipartisan, but that’s a transparent disguise. As the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence points out:

    One only has to look to the NRA’s Board of Directors to discover that the organization is operated by a group of individuals who promote racism, misogyny, homophobia, anti-immigrant animus, religious bigotry, anti-environmentalism, and insurrectionism. Some active board members have even had close relationships with brutal dictators in outside nations. Put simply, members of the NRA leadership no longer make for polite company.

    Moreover, while superficially bipartisan, the NRA is closely aligned with the most extreme elements in the Republican Party and has brought a number of the GOP’s most influential operatives into positions of power within the organization. The GOP and NRA are now locked in a symbiotic relationship where Republican legislators advance the NRA’s extreme agenda while the NRA musters its hardcore supporters to serve as attack dogs for a wide range of conservative causes.” Daily Kos

  141. Are you a racist?? What’s this “white man control”???? Ugly stuff! I just caught that. I judge people by the content of their character, NOT the color of their skin
    So sad for you. :-(

  142. Lol Swarthmore
    Ignorant. That is thrown out to discredit your opposition. Its a tactic right out of the book (Rules For Radicals) “isolate and discredit your opposite” call them names so no one will even listen to what they have to say.

  143. “So tracking private gun sales is an unconscionable assault on liberty but we can have a national database of the mentally ill. ” Ezra Klein

  144. That’s right. Guns don’t get up and assault people. The mentally Ill may or may not. National data base is only good for confiscation. Serves no other purpose.
    What would you say about a National Data Base on abortions preformed.???Keeping the names of people that have had abortions?? I AM NOT advocating that either, but would you consider that a violation of civil liberties.???????

  145. ´Fabien,

    You are on the right subject, but you don’t know yourself, much less the society you live in AND all relevant facts and relationships.

    We have automobile registration whichi is routinely enforced.
    We have police who routinely check for DUI.
    And we have courts who routinely exact penalties for violations.

    Now why should we NOT then add meaningful gun laws with minimum federal standards for commerce, public and private?

  146. Idealist 707 Again you have a need to insult. Maybe that makes you feel superior . But let address your points. First of all no license,regulations is required to drive a motor vehicle on private property. It is only required to take it on public property. Licencing of the automobile is a function of Taxation not a function of Safety. Licencing the the driver is a function of safety and taxation. The burden of proof is upon GOVERNMENT as to why you should not get a licence to operate a vehicle on public property. It is not on the citizens as to “why” they “need” the license. Drunk driving check points are in place to make sure that nobody is operating a motor vehicle while intoxicated. If someone is on public property armed and drunk they certainly should be arrested. Again the burden of proof is on government as to why you arenot allowed to go on your way. Assumes that you are allowed to operate a vehicle on public property given you are not intoxicated. regulations on motor vehicles themselves are in place to assure the operator of the song and it will get you from point A to point B in a relatively safe manner. Even with all of this we have many thousands of deaths every year from drunk driving. Throughout all of this there’s 1 overwhelming theme. The burden of proof is upon the government as to why you should not be operating a motor vehicle on public property. It’s not a sweeping declaration that no 1 other than public officials can use the public highways. It does not say that you are not allowed to drive on public highways unless you can prove that you need 2

  147. I have been on vacation all week. That’s why I’ve been able to participate in this. I’m at Big 5 right now. Buying a new Mini 14 stainless steel model with a 4X scope. Thought I would buy a new one before they won’t let me. I have just about wore out my old one. 30years and 5000 rounds and it has never drawn blood on anyone. It MUST be defective.. Wonder how many people all over the country are doing that.

  148. Fabien,

    That was insulting as you heard. But that is due to your mindset, fixed quite firmly.

    When I insult, I’ll signal it quite claarly. This was straight of the “honest” bucket.

    Thank God for short *********. And that was only a cryptic snark, to tell your intellligence.

  149. By the way. My first name is the real one. Last name is not. I found it on the net while googling my real name.

  150. Fabien,

    Nice name. As I said, i knew a guy whose pop was in La Résistance, from Voges Mountains
    Pruett is for me the character that Frank Sinatra played in “From Here to Eternity”. Maybe!?

  151. saw a fellow named Painter this am, who was a memebr of the Bush administration, ethics counsel I believe (ethics and Bush being oxymoronic but thats for a different post). He was discussing how the NRA is a bully and will threaten those running with that if they do not agree with NRA positions the NRA will pull out their support and throw their money behind another person who will support their agenda. I guess this is what our democracy has become, not only to the highest bidder but extortion is fine.
    (This is NYT article by Painter: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/the-nra-protection-racket.html?_r=0 )

  152. Please give click as to regulation vs crime stats with guns.
    Here si a link:

    The US has the highest gun ownership rate in the world – there are 89 guns for every 100 Americans, compared to 6 in England and Wales.

    And the murder figures themselves are astounding for Brits used to around 550 murders per year. In 2011 – the latest year for which detailed statistics are available – there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.

    The FBI crime statistics are based on reports to FBI bureau and local law enforcement. The figures are not complete – there are no stats for Florida or Alabama on firearm murders. But even so it provides a detailed picture of attacks by state.
    Crime across the US – roll over line to get number
    In fact, gun crime, like all crime across the US (and the UK, for that matter), is going down – you can see how much in the graph above. And the vast majority invlove firearms.

  153. The 12,664 homocides you listed are both justified and unjustified homicides. About 2/3 of which are bad guys shooting other bad guys, good guys shooting bad guys or police shooting bad guys. We have a major gang problem in the country. Generations of fatherless children with no hope or love in their lives. The gang is their family and who they are looking to for validation.Very sad. The phrase you used “caused by guns” shows a mindset. They were done “with” guns not “by” guns.

  154. Google “guncontrol just facts” and what should be at the top of the hits will give you a lot of factual statistics and not opinion.

  155. Dredd wrote:
    1, December 19, 2012 at 8:33 am
    “They seem to have a magical element in their thinking, because we know that things can happen to sane and sound people which turn them into mass murderers at schools.
    “That includes police, teachers, principals, and other school officials.”

    What?? “… we know that things can happen to sane and sound people which turn them into mass murderers at schools. … That includes police …”

    What?? Police shouldn’t have guns?? Well, very nice. First, disarm the peaceable citizens. Then disarm the police. Then maybe all the criminals will disarm themselves and turn those nasty icky guns in.

  156. mespo727272
    1, December 19, 2012 at 2:39 pm

    “I hear “W” was and is for gun control, too:

    “Supports the current ban on automatic weapons
    “Supports banning the importation of foreign made, “high-capacity” ammunition clips.”

    Automatic weapons are not banned by federal law. Some states forbid their possession.
    Something more virtuous about U.S. made high-capacity ammunition magazines?
    Any competent amateur machinist can make a gun or guns. Read about “slam-bang” shotguns made by Philippine jungle gunsmiths out of water pipe or electrical conduit fitted to a piece of board carved into a buttstock and foreend.

  157. leejcaroll
    1, December 22, 2012 at 4:10 pm

    “In 2011 – the latest year for which detailed statistics are available – there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.”

    No murders are caused by firearms. Murder is caused by murderers. Guns cause death.

  158. That was not my quote but from the article however the deaths were caused by firearms, not by, say, strangulation or hanging or other means. A murderer uses a firearm in order to cause a death.

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