Hobby Lobby CEO Files Lawsuit

-Submitted by David Drumm (Nal), Guest Blogger

hobby-lobbyOklahoma City-based Hobby Lobby’s founder and CEO David Green has filed a lawsuit challenging the health care mandate to provide what Green “believe[s] are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance.” Green goes on to say: “Being Christians, we don’t pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don’t cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill.”

The District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma denied Green’s motion for a preliminary injunction The Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit denied the applicants’ motion for an injunction and Justice Sotomayor also denied the application for an injunction pending appellate review.

Are Green’s beliefs regarding the morning-after pill (Plan B) or the week-after pill (Ella) reasonable?

Green never defined what he means by “abortion,” but let’s assume he uses the Christian definition that seeks to equate pregnancy with fertilization. The scientific and medical definition of pregnancy comes from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and states:

implantation of the blastocyst into the lining of the uterus at the conclusion of which pregnancy is established.

Plan B works by impeding the sperm from entering the uterus by thickening cervical mucus. Plan B can also stop the release of an egg from the ovaries or slow down the movement of the egg. These methods could prevent fertilization. Some have argued that Plan B creates a “hostile endometrium” that disrupts implantation. However, Dr. Sandra Reznik writes in Health Progress, a publication of The Catholic Health Association of the United States, that if Plan B:

involved a change in the endometrium, then one would expect a higher rate of success [in preventing pregnancy]. … Taken together, there are biological, clinical and epidemiological data clearly indicating that Plan B’s mechanism of action involves only pre-fertilization events.

Ella is a newer drug with a chemical composition similar to RU-486. However, in studies, two percent of women who took Ella became pregnant. This failure rate indicates that Ella does not have RU-486’s effect on the endometrium.

Regarding normal birth control pills, that is, non-emergency contraceptives, even Prolife Ob/Gyn’s can find no evidence of the pill’s effect on implantation. The Prolife Ob/Gyn’s note that if the pill is an abortifacient, “we would expect to see a huge increase in ectopics in women on hormonal birth control. We don’t.” They go on to say that we “know of no existing scientific studies that validate the “hostile endometrium is abortifacient” theory.”

Even by his definition of what constitutes a pregnancy, Green’s beliefs that contraceptives are “abortion causing” are nonsense.

H/T: National Catholic Reporter, Rachel Benson Gold, Religious Tolerance.

52 thoughts on “Hobby Lobby CEO Files Lawsuit

  1. Yesterday, on Democracy Now!

    Criminalizing Pregnancy: As Roe v. Wade Turns 40, Study Finds Forced Interventions on Pregnant Women

    http://www.democracynow.org/2013/1/18/criminalizing_pregnancy_as_roe_v_wade

    A new study shows hundreds of women in the United States have been arrested, forced to undergo unwanted medical procedures, and locked up in jails or psychiatric institutions, because they were pregnant. National Advocates for Pregnant Women found 413 cases when pregnant women were deprived of their physical liberty between 1973, when Roe v. Wade was decided, and 2005. At least 250 more interventions have taken place since then. In one case, a court ordered a critically ill woman in Washington, D.C., to undergo a C-section against her will. Neither she nor the baby survived. In another case, a judge in Ohio kept a woman imprisoned to prevent her from having an abortion. We’re joined by Lynn Paltrow, founder and executive director of the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. “We’ve had cases where lawyers have been appointed for a fetus before the woman herself, who’s been locked up, ever gets a lawyer,” Paltrow says. “[We’ve had] cases where they’ve ordered a procedure over women’s religious objections. And one court said pregnant women of course have a right to religious freedom — unless it interferes with what we believe is best for the fetus or embryo.” The new study comes on the eve of the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the landmark Supreme Court decision on the right to abortion — a right that has been under siege ever since.

    YNN PALTROW: Well, we knew that these cases existed. We’ve had the opportunity to talk about them. But they’re often seen as sort of rare and isolated. And, in fact, when we brought up these cases in response to proposed personhood measures that would authorize the states to treat fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses as if they’re entirely separate from the pregnant woman; when we said, “Look, this is going to be used to arrest women who have had miscarriages and still-births. This is going to be used to surveil pregnant women. It’s going to do much more than just, as they claim, end the injustice of abortion,” and they said, “That’s just scare tactics” — so we said, “OK, let’s look at what’s going on.”

    And what we found when we sought to actually document cases is we found 413 cases between 1973 and 2005, after Roe was decided. We picked that period so we know the outcome of the cases. We know, from evidence we got, that there were many more of those cases, but we weren’t—we know because sometimes we were advising women who were, in South Dakota, taken into custody on suspicion of pregnancy, to protect the unborn child from her drinking, for example. What we found were their arrests, incarcerations, as you said, in prisons and jails, forced medical interventions. And some of these cases, we hadn’t heard about, and even surprised us—a case where a woman was diagnosed with gestational diabetes, something that occurs during pregnancy. She didn’t comply with the orders for secondary follow-up testing, so they got a civil—they civilly committed her in the hospital, and they said she wasn’t—she was examined. She wasn’t insane. She wasn’t a danger to herself. But because they claimed that her mental health situation didn’t enable her to go for needed prenatal testing, they could keep her locked up in the hospital. And one of the things we also found is that when those kinds of things happen, it doesn’t mean that the woman or the baby is protected. She was locked in that hospital, and they never did the gestational testing.

    But I think part of what we found, too, is, all of this, we sort of talk about it in a language that’s very familiar for the last 40 years: Roe v. Wade and the right to abortion, the criminalization of pregnancy. But what we really learned is that what’s at stake is the personhood of pregnant women, that when you look at what happened in these cases—women deprived of their physical liberty; the case you mentioned, Angela Carter, deprived of her right to life—they’re deprived of due process of law. Women are put in jail and have decisions about forced surgery made in the course of an afternoon. That’s basic due process rights. We’ve had cases where lawyers have been appointed for a fetus before the woman herself, who’s been locked up, ever gets a lawyer; cases where they’ve ordered a procedure over women’s religious objections. And one court said pregnant women of course have a right to religious freedom—unless it interferes with what we believe is best for the fetus or embryo.

    JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Even here in a liberal bastion like New York City, a recent report that more than a dozen city hospitals were routinely testing pregnant women for drugs without informing them about it.

  2. in a free society he should have every right to do this. And in a free society an individual would decide to work or not work for Hobby Lobby based on their individual conscience.

    Or they could purchase their abortifactants and birth control out of their own pockets. Abortion and birth control are private issues which should be left up to the individual. Government has no place in determining an individuals personal morality.

    For all you morons who will say well government prevents murder so it does determine individual morality, no what government does is protect individual rights of actual human beings. Or at least it should.

    And so the president of Hobby Lobby should have the right to provide the kind of insurance he wants for his employees and his employees have the right to work or not work for Hobby Lobby.

    If you dont like it, go out and start the Hobby Hanger and provide all the birth control and abortifactants you want.

  3. “Even by his definition of what constitutes a pregnancy, Green’s beliefs that contraceptives are “abortion causing” are nonsense.”
    ===========================================
    That could have something to do with his having lost the case all along the way so far.

    Let’s hope so.

    He is willing to spend the big bucks on legal and factual nonsense, but not a penny to allow women to make their own personal choice.

  4. When people can argue that their religious beliefs absolve them from following the law, can a law suit arguing that laws that prohibit human sacrifice for religious reasons be far away? There are members of religions that claim that their religion requires honor killings and genital cutting. Shall we say oh, ok. Its religion go ahead murder and torture as much as you want in the name of god.

    No exemptions for religious entities should be permitted from any laws including most importantly the tax laws.

  5. Refusing to provide contraception in a health care policy is not the same as human sacrifice. I dont have Lasik surgery as a benefit in my policy. I also dont have coverage for some types of medical equipment.

    Contraception is a right and so are Lasik surgery and abortion but that doesnt mean you get it for free or as part of an insurance policy provided by an employer. Except maybe in a totalitarian state where morality is mandated by executive order.

    In a free society there would be multiple, competing insurance carriers offering a multitude of customized policies tailored to individual needs and circumstances.

  6. Mr. Drumm:

    You have the right to your opinion; so does Mr. Green.

    The tone of your column suggests that in another time, you might have been a witch burner.

    I suspect that that there are a fair number of people who would like to shut you up.

    Extend to Mr. Green the same courtesy you expect.

  7. The tone of your column suggests that in another time, you might have been a witch burner.
    =========================================================

    one small step for man, one giant leap for wtf

  8. “The tone of your column suggests that in another time, you might have been a witch burner.

    I suspect that that there are a fair number of people who would like to shut you up.

    Extend to Mr. Green the same courtesy you expect.”

    Steve Fleisher,

    To many, including myself, Green’s actions are an attempt to impose his religious beliefs upon his employees. Besides that I suspect that Mr. Green knows his customer base ad this is part of a marketing ploy. Anti-Abortionists, such as yourself perhaps, believe that their non-universal religious beliefs take precedence over a woman’s control of her body. My own religious beliefs are that life begins at birth, as are those of may other religious people many who are Christians. The anti-abortionists, like Green are trying to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of this country. I’m sure Mr. Drumm has no intention of not allowing Mr. Green to believe what he believes, it is when he tries to impose upon his employees his religious views by refusing to comply with a mandated health insurance policy, that he crosses the line. Employees,
    especially in these hard economic times are generally not able to freely bargain their rights with their employers. Green thus imposes his beliefs and prejudices onto his employees, which to me is the mark of a bully. Being such he doesn’t deserve to be treated with respect.

    As far as there being a fair number of people who would like to shut up those opposed to the anti-abortion movement, I agree that is true. The murders, violence and coercion exercised by the anti-abortionists are all factually documented and the reality is that this movement is extremely coercive and for that alone does not deserve respect.

  9. What Bron said. And in case you didn’t read it…

    in a free society he should have every right to do this. And in a free society an individual would decide to work or not work for Hobby Lobby based on their individual conscience.

    Or they could purchase their abortifactants and birth control out of their own pockets. Abortion and birth control are private issues which should be left up to the individual. Government has no place in determining an individuals personal morality.

    For all you morons who will say well government prevents murder so it does determine individual morality, no what government does is protect individual rights of actual human beings. Or at least it should.

    And so the president of Hobby Lobby should have the right to provide the kind of insurance he wants for his employees and his employees have the right to work or not work for Hobby Lobby.

    If you dont like it, go out and start the Hobby Hanger and provide all the birth control and abortifactants you want.

  10. It’s about time some intelligent prophet founded a religion that opposes early detection or treatment for prostate cancer so that any insurance companies that pay physicians to prescribe these ungodly witches’ brews can be stopped in their tracks. Then lets see some lawsuits.

  11. I think that the government should not be involved in a persons decision to choose. The bottom line is that this is between the person and whatever god that they have if any….

    I wonder if Hobby Lobby calculated the risk of filing in this circuit knowing that Sotomoyer would have final say for an appeal of this nature…..

    A little known fact: a Supreme Court judge assigned to a particular circuit may sit on cases assigned to that circuit. If the chief judge of that circuit happens to be presiding on the same case, the Sct judge becomes the chief judge….. Unless of course they changed it…. Another fact, if a federal judge retires after reaching the requisite age they retire at the same salary they were making at the time of retirement…..

  12. Mike Spindell:

    the issue isnt the economy but whether the government has a right to legislate morality.

    Communist China forces abortion with their one child rule. And some day they may force parents to abort male children because of the shortage of female children.

    I am against abortion but I am also against the state having anything to do with it. What the state gives the state can take away. You force Green to provide contraception and abortion to his employers today and tomorrow when government swings the other way he will force your daughters to carry their pregnancy to full term.

    Each way of thinking is a violation of individual rights.

  13. This is where or “wear” the rubber meets the road. Do they sell condoms? Can someone verify that for the blog?
    Those who boycott the store could probably put them out of business. The strip mall needs another tenant. Someone who does not lobby for a hobby or who does not post their prayers in the lobby. Or cross dress like that holly priest.
    Dont buy anything Kosher from them, it will be contaminated. Dont buy their Bibles, they are from Sears Roebuck and omit the Sixth Commandment. Dont buy their bicycles, the wheels fall off on right turns.

  14. Steve Fleischer:

    Extend to Mr. Green the same courtesy you expect.

    I did. I would consider it a great courtesy if someone would argue that my beliefs have no basis in reality. I extended that courtesy to Mr. Green.

  15. Hobby Lobby selling condoms? I guess some folks consider sex a hobby and there are lots of things that are sold for that hobbyist, but Hobby Lobby leans more toward arts and crafts.

    The government isn’t suggesting that Mr. Green, individual, use any of the items that he’s objecting to. The government is suggesting that Mr. Green, employer, follow the law that all similar employers are required to follow. As Nal points out, this isn’t even an abortion issue, but I doubt that Mr. Green understands that.

  16. There is no right to LASIK surgery. Contraception, birth control and abortion relate to the basic human right to procreate or not. It is not the same as deciding to wear glasses or not. You and I both know that Hobby Lobyy doesn’t care about what Christ would say about contraception. mr. Hobby Lobby wants to save more money and make more money. If he wins this one, there is no telling what labor law or other law he will claim violates his religious sensibilities.

    Whether or to engage in human sacrifice relates to the victim’s right to life. If your religion requires human sacrifice should you be allowed an exemption from laws forbidding homicide?

    Religious exemptions from generally applicable laws are wrong. Unfortunately, churches have been able to avoid rules against discrimination and other labor laws.

    My insurance payments help pay for erectile dysfunction drugs which are used by many to engage in inappropriate sexual activity. I believe that is immoral and against my religion. May I sue and win to stop paying for ED drugs? Should I?

    My tax dollars help fund wars that violate my religious beliefs, can I be exempted from paying income taxes?

    I am forced to pay for the religious activities of churches and religious entitys with which I disagree through tax exemptions and grants to these entities. Does it matter that my church views these religions as heresy and views support of them as a sin? May I be exempted from paying taxes?

    If churches don’t want their members to have abortions or use contraceptives, they should teach them not to do so. If Mr. HL doesn’t want to use contraceptives he shouldn’t. If doesn’t want an abortion, he shouldn’t have one. His objection to a generally applicable law whose focus is providing health care is quite franky not credible but credible or not he should lose.

  17. The question is not about the cherry picking (no pun intended) as far as birth control pills are concerned. The question is to abide by the law which requires comprehensive health insurance from the businesses. By law, Mr. Green is supposed to have the fire hydrants in his Hobby Lobby shops in order to do business. He can not refuse them on religious grounds declaring that in case of fire, only the non believers will burn in the fire of hell and the Christians like him will walk out unscathed.

    Secondly, as a Christian he must believe in Freewill which means Free Choice. One other thing, these fundies confuse themselves by not understanding that free choice does not mean Pro Abortion.

    Lastly, this god of theirs is the biggest abortionist ever existed. All miscarriages happen because of this ALL powerful deity who wants them to. So, it is OK for them to praise their Evil god (Isaiah 45:7), while he is aborting all these fetuses and refuse to pay for any protection.

    PS: Life starts at erection.

  18. Let me add a thought w/o reading the whole stack. BTW Nal, great work, as usual. :-)

    The farmer sows his field expecting to harvest. If someone else pulls up the crop, does he have a right to complain???

    Women are walking fields, bought or not, to be plowed. (Weird we use that word. Freudian slip by men?). Unconditional harvest has been traditional, during peaceful times . Changed by Roe vs Wade??? Apparently not.

    Is this human? I think not.

  19. I can add nothing more to what Justice Holmes and Nal wrote other than to support their views.

    Mr Hobby Lobby is perfectly free to file his lawsuit and has done so. I am perfectly free to boycott Hobby Lobby’s three stores here in Ohio. I am also perfectly free to recommend to my family, friends, and neighbors that they consider boycotting Hobby Lobby. There are, after all, several craft stores within easy driving distance from any Hobby Lobby location … no hardship.

  20. Bron,

    Riding your broken hobby horse again? Love ya’, wouldn’t move a hair.

    !,,,but that doesnt mean you get it for free or as part of an insurance policy provided by an employer. Except maybe in a totalitarian state where morality is mandated by executive order.”

    But I think it is OK that the law gives us the right to choose, over religious objections.

    You are not supporting Christian or other religious Sharia justice, I hope not.

    Would you give employers the right to deny tax-withholding because he refuses to render unto Caesar on behalf of his employees as result of his religious belief.???

    Christ said the opposite. “Pay and obey the laws. That can not be denied, but follow me otherwise” My paraphrase.

    Jesus was too smart said the jews, so he was not admitted to the Sanhedran.
    Like some justices get blocked for having morals, good sense of law, but opposed by lobbyists.

  21. Teji,

    Besides erections so is estrus necessary. As any woman can attest to, otherwise you are plowing at the wrong season.

    Small birds of some species are served better by nature than women are.
    The birds can at will remove the semen package, ejecting it from the cloac, which is dual purpose opening, as all here know of course.

    Not so exotic a point as some may believe. Just asserting that nature triumphs over religion every time.

    No applause please, it only makes me more dependent on the body hormone oxy????!

  22. I don’t see how Hobby Lobby actually pays for these medications/procudures. It is their insurance provider that does.

    To me this sounds very much like working for Hobby Lobby would be unattractive as it seems apparent they want to involve themselves so completely in the lives of their employees that they should control even the reproductive choices of them. I would think it might be more worthwhile for them in finding better ways to increase revenue or cut costs, but I guess this is only extraneous.

  23. the issue isnt the economy but whether the government has a right to legislate morality.

    Our government isn’t legislating morality. These are secular, medical and workplace issues. Religion has no place whatever in the discussion. Holly Lobby is subject to all the secular workplace laws such as not being allowed to discriminate in their hiring practices. Religious organizations are exempted from that by being permitted such discrimination, but Holly Lobby doesn’t conform to the special status of a religious organization. They are a secular business and MUST adhere to secular laws guaranteeing certain workplace issue for ALL companies. I, for one, am quite sick and tired of their Christian Sharia and the whining of religious people trying to continually infect the laws of our country with their nonsense. That’s the law. If they don’t like it they should close up business in the US and move to where religion trumps law—Saudi Arabia or Iran.

  24. I may be wrong on this because at some point I grow weary of the constant badgering of women regarding birth control and lose the thread of the arguments. But, I thought the requirement to cover the pill “without a co-pay” was based on equality because most insurance policies cover full payment of Viagra or other male enhancement products for men. Thus, the requirement was put into the law so that women could be on an equal basis regarding special meds for them as men and their special meds. However, this point seems to have gotten lost somewhere.

  25. Darren,

    There you go being logical when facing extremists.

    http://www.palletcentral.com/index.php

    I visited a site which a swede tipped me off on. His association will remain secret. He has more assassins than I have bodyguards.

    There was on the first visit an internal link to a rabid anti-regulation and bla-bla damned gov, etc video.
    Searched now on the site but no find. A visit to the home page shows a lead article which might be considered representing the political sentiments of small entrepreneurs. Obamacare and its burdens for the “small” business.

    Guess there is something corresponding to ALEC to help them with their propaganda, or maybe smart members.
    My contact was smart AND rich. A fascinating chameleon. Never had the chance to do a long study of the species——especially rich ones.

  26. Bonnie

    I believe they are included because for many women the pills that also provide contraception are used for other specific medical conditions rather than a tit-for-tat vis a vis Viagra. Perhaps that’s the real reason and the one I offered is the cover story.

    I saw an ad for one of the Medicare Part B providers during the period when people consider changing plans. The line opened with “…as with all Medicare approved Part B supplemental plans…”. I hadn’t noticed that line before. It indicates that there are minimum standards to be included in and insurance product that any company is offering seniors. That’s precisely the wording I heard Sec’y Sibellis use a few months ago in defining this issue when it came up regarding Catholic Church run hospitals and universities. There are minimum standards for any and all healthcare insurance plans offered to any companies and to all employees that are NOT excluded by virtue of their religious organization status.

  27. I have said it before, when did corporations become able to have religious beliefs? Did Hobby Lobby celebrate its First Communion? Or confirmation, baptism or it’s bar mitzvah? If a corporation can have religious beliefs, why can’t it go to jail?

  28. “To many, including myself, Green’s actions are an attempt to impose his religious beliefs upon his employees”

    The employees are not forced to work for Hobby Lobby. Employees are free to make themselves unemployed at any time. If a person is offended at a company that holds true to core values and a system of beliefs, they are welcome to apply for work at any other company that perhaps does not have a set of values and could care less about being accountable to anything.

    “Anti-Abortionists, such as yourself perhaps, believe that their non-universal religious beliefs take precedence over a woman’s control of her body.”

    PRO-LIFERS recognize that an unborn child, with its own set of chromosomes, own heartbeat, own fingerprints, brainwave activity, etc… is NOT a part of the woman’s body, therefore the phrase “control of her own body” is a meaningless buzzword cliche statement.

    “The anti-abortionists, like Green are trying to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of this country.”

    PRO-LIFERS recognize that an unborn child is indeed a living child, not a mass of tissue, or a frog, or rock, and at what is known by science alone are imposing the adherence to existing laws in regards to killing another individual. On science alone, without even getting into “religion”, one can make the case the baby is a baby. The imposition is simply you shouldn’t kill an unborn child. Now the $10,000 question is, how is that an imposition?

    “My own religious beliefs are that life begins at birth, as are those of may other religious people many who are Christians.”

    So a baby becomes a baby simply by position. A short trip down a vagina and a baby is transformed into something protected by law by another one killing it. The other $10,000 question, what is the baby, before it makes that short trip down a vagina?

  29. “I have said it before, when did corporations become able to have religious beliefs?”

    If the founder of a company has core values and religious beliefs, why would they want to create a company that is opposite of what they believe in? Are you implying that religious beliefs should be illegal?

  30. (Malisha) “It’s about time some intelligent prophet founded a religion that opposes early detection or treatment for prostate cancer so that any insurance companies that pay physicians to prescribe these ungodly witches’ brews can be stopped in their tracks. Then lets see some lawsuits.”

    It’s about time someone concocted an argument in this thread that compares two things that are about as similar as Hitler and Mother Theresa.

  31. (blouise17) “I can add nothing more to what Justice Holmes and Nal wrote other than to support their views.

    Mr Hobby Lobby is perfectly free to file his lawsuit and has done so. I am perfectly free to boycott Hobby Lobby’s three stores here in Ohio. I am also perfectly free to recommend to my family, friends, and neighbors that they consider boycotting Hobby Lobby. There are, after all, several craft stores within easy driving distance from any Hobby Lobby location … no hardship.”

    The Hobby Lobby stores locally have actually had a very healthy increase in sales, compared to a competition store like Michael’s. So it appears a boycott by misguided individuals would have little or no effect.

  32. David M.,

    I am not impressed.

    A child, during its vaginal passage is an unborn child. At a viable and sustainable birthing, it enters into a status as a person, and is accorded medical care, etc. as persons are at any age. That is its first rite of passage. (other than a fertilized eggs need for implantation)

    Prior to achieving birthing, it is solely an “EGG”, carried and nourished within this mammals womb, as its growth takes a long time. Until it is born, it has been regarded by some, as having bla bla rights, due to paternalistic demands of yield from a purchased womb, and with religion’s need to promote itself. Religions are dedicated to producing more bodies to convert to subservience and slavery for their cause.

    Birthing is a rite of passage, from parasite to person. It is the critical point
    where, when complications occur, decisions are made as to whom to save. Usually the mother, as she has proven value as a producer of children, and thus can have more children.

    Unless medical indications say otherwise, that is the traditional path always chosen, since the creation of ceremonial graves in homo sapiens. Many baby foetuses were early laid to rest without the company of the mother’s corpse..
    Survival of the species come before ethical/religious considerations. We survived, thanks to such decisions. Having many wives, on whom to place your bets, helped for a while.

    Get it now? Welcome back if you want more. I doubt that you will.

  33. The CEO:

    {music}
    He was born…In Oklahoma,
    His wife’s name is Betty Lou Thelma Liz….
    He’s not responsible for what he’s doin….
    His mother made him what he is.

    And its UP Against The Wall ..Redneck mothers…
    Mothers who have raised the son so well…
    He’s 34 and drinkin in honky tonks….
    kickin hippies asses and raisin hell.

    etc
    -Jerry Jeff Walker

    esplains it all.

  34. David M, “It’s about time someone concocted an argument in this thread that compares two things that are about as similar as Hitler and Mother Theresa.”

    Hitler and Mother Theresa are similar. Both of them rose to fame because large multinational powers supported their efforts to impose their own personal beliefs upon huge numbers of people who neither understood nor necessarily even learned about their personal philosophies. We all know what Hitler did because wars are studied extensively. I heard a Dutchman (drunk at the time) defend some of Hitler’s policies because he had repealed the bicycle tax. Mother Theresa successfully opposed birth control in 60 developing nations. She was called “Mother” although she never had a child. Her idea of world peace was that there would be no birth control anywhere and no abortion anywhere; that would be peace. As for the rest of it, suffering was good because it helped us all do as Jesus Christ had done.

    Check it out.
    http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/Hitchens,Christopher/MissionaryPosition.html

    However, David M., Hitler and Mother Theresa were not the same kind of people at all and that proves nothing.

    Arguments on this thread do not have to meet with your critical approval. If the sacred penis were under better control nobody would be talking about abortion because women do not generally WANT THEM unless there is a cultural situation in which having a child is likely to destroy a woman’s life. Such as ours. The first step to getting the sacred penis under control would be to get the sacred penis holders under control and that would only come about if there were significantly fewer of them around. But it’s all talk because most of us confine ourselves to arguments, not to behaviors such as those exhibited by either Hitler or Theresa.

  35. “The employees are not forced to work for Hobby Lobby. Employees are free to make themselves unemployed at any time.”

    The response and the mind of a person who would find indentured servitude fine with him.

    “PRO-LIFERS recognize that an unborn child, with its own set of chromosomes, own heartbeat, own fingerprints, brainwave activity, etc… is NOT a part of the woman’s body, therefore the phrase “control of her own body” is a meaningless buzzword cliche statement.”

    “Pro-Lifers” are for the most part blatant hypocrites who support the fetus, but once birth occurs leave the baby to shift for themselves. Anti-Abortion doesn’t even fully describe them since time and again they have been proved to be anti women’s sexuality and for the punishment of women. This is proven by the radical redefinition of life to begin at conception, thus their opposition to the “morning after pill”. Anti-Abortion is really about control of women’s sexuality also as proven by their refusal to allow any sex education but abstinence and their opposition to teaching birth control methods.

    Even the concept that it’s “not a part of a women’s body” shows the hostility and hatred these pious hypocrites have for females they can’t control. Beyond that though they want to violate my religious freedom and deeply held beliefs by imposing their own radical agenda upon the laws of this country in the belief they are doing “God’s Work” when the opposite is true. If abortion is a sin then God will deal with it. My religion and many other forms of Christianity believe that life begins at birth. It is so typical of the sin of pride and the blasphemy of people who don’t understand their religion to try to impose their beliefs.

    “On science alone, without even getting into “religion”, one can make the case the baby is a baby.”

    On “science alone” one can raise any hypothesis one wants, as illustrated by
    “creation science”, However, the hypocrisy is in trying not to admit this is a religious issue on the part of Anti-Abortionist haters of women. It is all about religion and they know it, however, they must dissemble because their real goal is to make their personal religious beliefs supreme in this country. They are exactly analogous to those who would impose “Sharia Law” in their nations and have proven to be just as violent in the imposition of their beliefs.
    One need only check out the survey’s and the writings of mainstream “pro-life”
    people: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/post/the-death-penalty-can-be-pro-life/2011/09/15/gIQAiRudUK_blog.html to understand that the term
    “pro-life” only applies to abortion.

    “The other $10,000 question, what is the baby, before it makes that short trip down a vagina?”

    Part of a mother’s body. Short question what do you think the government’s position on abstinence and birth control should be?

  36. Dave,
    I am implyng that a legal fiction, like a corporation, cannot have religious beliefs. If the corporation is a true “person” why do they pay a different tax rate than you and I? If you are concerned about religioius liberties, why do employees lose their own personal religious liberty by taking a job at Hobby Lobby? Religious beliefs are obviously legal, but an employers beliefs cannot force me, as an employee to abide by my employer’s beliefs.

  37. justice holmes:

    and if he doesnt want to pay for contraception and abortion as part of an insurance policy he is paying for, then he has a right not do so. As do his employees who are free to not work for him or who are free to ask for the money he pays for the policy and find one on their own which covers what they want covered.

    There is no natural right to conception or to sex for any of us. May I walk down the street and rape a woman? May a woman hold a gun to a man’s head and demand sex?

    You can pay for sex, you can romance for sex, you can beg for sex but you dont have a natural right for sex. Your natural right ends with your hand.

  38. id707:

    “You are not supporting Christian or other religious Sharia justice, I hope not.”

    nope, up to the individuals involved to determine. none of my business either way.

    You have to let people live and be who they are, you cannot force them into who you want them to be.

  39. Malisha wrote:
    Rafflaw, if a corporation were a person, could it get pregnant?
    ~+~
    It is called a “Holding Company.” It gives birth to wholely owned subsidiaries. :)

  40. God is not involved. Therefore those who claim to follow his dicta are…..words fail.

    Nature has made us as we are, even to the point of monthly oestrus (conception receptive) as an expression in my eyes of man’s relative independence of the summer/winter feast/famine cycle dictating other animal’s being steered to a yearly opportunity. I have not read this as a theory, just hypothesizing based on random samples of proven data.

    But for causes much speculated on, it gave us excess brain capacity.
    And then the mischief begins, where the last ten thousand years have seen no improvement in our communal groups.

    The modern stone age, living only on nature (Bushmen) do have a social system that gives a slight temporary food reward or a chance to lead the hunt again to the leader who succeeds. It also provides for the distribution of the hunt’s prize primarily after need. The women’s hunt for veg food is also divided amicably.

    Their biggest taboo? To break out into anger or start a conflict. Really!

    Well, all our technology then? Yeah, I don’t have the energy to answer that, but it sure has helped fool us, exchanging baubles for the treasure of our earth.
    Take it from here if you like.

    I never claimed that we ever had a paradise. But it does support life.
    200,000 years so far for us, and 400,000 for Neandertals..
    Do you think that we will get another 200,000 years?

  41. “To many, including [Mr. Spindell], Green’s actions are an attempt to impose his religious beliefs upon his employees.”

    There is nothing I have seen showing that Hobby Lobby does not allow its employees to buy the abortifacients (or other drugs) at issue or that it in anyway imposes the owner’s religious beliefs on the employees, (but maybe I have missed it). On the other hand, when Congress requires a man to act against his religious beliefs, arguably it has “ma[de a] law … prohibiting the free exercise” of religion.

    One of the beautiful things about our system is that Hobby Lobby can sue the government if it believes its rights are being infringed. It is disappointing (but not surprising) to see Hobby Lobby criticized for exercising that ability to sue.

  42. Betty Lou Thelma Liz chimined in to say that David Green’s older brothers poked holes in the dad’s condoms and hence we have Green.

  43. well I am supposed to go off on a long rant about many different subjects, while the mormon prophets are wondering how obama made it to his second term, and who wrote the warning order for a great burden for the navy seals, in the time of false prophets claiming to know god, but in the future it will be known.
    the president keeps saying GOD bless america, and he listens to those that tell you that JESUS is not here. they worship jesus in other countries like mexico and spread the over population to other countries claiming religious beliefs without consequences. With the over abundance of campfires or cooking stoves as just part of the problem of global warming.
    president obama the whole world is watching you say, GOD bless america. don’t be narrow minded, the Universe is MY DOMAIN. welcome to MY COMPUTER SYSTEM, LIVING VERSION VIDEO GAME. you have one soul, so DON’T lose it.

    mr president I have president kimball rolling over in his grave like jp 2. these people tell you that a child is born into sin. if so, then these aborted fetuses will be the only souls saved according to the religions. the parents will go to hell. these are the same people that tell you that JESUS is not here.

    the mormons have spoken against GOD in the election when romney said to ask his church, romney knew that they groomed him to take over the world, with back ups. every church wants GOD to claim their church to be correct and saved… ???
    obama the whole world is watching while the antichist is using GOD to destroy the world. history is being written even on this web site. satan will fight for souls and I will send them to hell for following the antichrist. you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. and religions of the world, are the down fall of the world. I never said that I was going to destroy history, but it is written that I will set you free from the oppressors. so I hope that you are not trying to set up a catholic for the next president.

    also noted in THE BIBLE, ONE GOD, ONE RELIGION. AND IT WILL BE MY DESIGN, not that of any clergy. GOD does not need a preacher.
    in the future they will ask why was the promised land destroyed by those people.

    the eyes of the world are on you mister president. will you lead the world to failures?

    … their are many subjects not covered in this subject at the same time the ramifications are endless. a paradox has evolved.
    it is written come hell or high water you will be called an antichrist. I did not say that, the antichrists have been doing this before you were known to “yourselves”. mr. president, I, like the the antichrists have been waiting for you. and since GOD is here like JESUS said, the christians are pissed off and pray that GOD return the Prophet to HEAVEN so they can continue in their evil ways against GOD.

    Mr. president the blessing is written above, as you requested. it requires the united nations, not just the united states. don’t go it alone, but be the first as in, be not ashamed of GOD, because MY SON IS HERE TO. the people are in the clouds, so they are truly lost. like JESUS said, that when HE COMES AGAIN THEY WILL NOT BELIEVE, and be scurrying about even though they have had decades to prepare, they have not changed their ways, and the nations were mislead.
    just like a clergy gets up in front of the masses and tells about their children that will go to an ivy league college, while some can’t afford to properly feed their own children, they ask that you donate more or , get excommunicated. so they all will be closed. they feed upon the weak.

    And that mr. president is it, in the NUTS HELL as you asked!

  44. I’ve said this many times before and I still don’t understand why we give such companies the time of day. Claiming a religious belief should not place you above the law. Period.

    Supposedly they believe that contraception is a sin so they should be exempt from laws requiring companies to provide insurance covering such items.

    Where does that end?

    If a religion believes women are subservient to men should the company be allowed to deny a woman a position which would give her authority over male employees?

    If a religion believes that any medical intervention is a sin and only prayer is proper, should they be exempt from all medical coverage?

    If a religion believes that disabilities from birth are from God and making accommodations is sinful should companies be exempt from ADA laws.

    And in a country with religious freedom, where ANY religious idea is allowed, a company or a person for that matter could claim that they are exempt from any and all laws.

    No, claims of religious belief shouldn’t matter in the eyes of the law.

  45. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonard-peikoff/abortion-rights-are-pro-life_b_2526853.html

    “We must not confuse potentiality with actuality. An embryo is a potential human being. It can, granted the woman’s choice, develop into an infant. But what it actually is during the first trimester is a mass of relatively undifferentiated cells that exist as a part of a woman’s body. If we consider what it is rather than what it might become, we must acknowledge that the embryo under three months is something far more primitive than a frog or a fish. To compare it to an infant is ludicrous.

    If we are to accept the equation of the potential with the actual and call the embryo an “unborn child,” we could, with equal logic, call any adult an “undead corpse” and bury him alive or vivisect him for the instruction of medical students.

    That tiny growth, that mass of protoplasm, exists as a part of a woman’s body. It is not an independently existing, biologically formed organism, let alone a person. That which lives within the body of another can claim no right against its host. Rights belong only to individuals, not to collectives or to parts of an individual. (“Independent” does not mean self-supporting — a child who depends on its parents for food, shelter, and clothing, has rights because it is an actual, separate human being.)

    “Rights,” in Ayn Rand’s words, “do not pertain to a potential, only to an actual being. A child cannot acquire any rights until it is born.”

    It is only on this base that we can support the woman’s political right to do what she chooses in this issue. No other person — not even her husband — has the right to dictate what she may do with her own body. That is a fundamental principle of freedom.”

  46. I am a mother, Republican, and Christian and this is very disturbing to me. It dentures me because how people are trying to hide behind their religious beliefs instead of obeying God. Mr. Green is like the Pharisees who tried to trick Jesus about the taxes. Should you pat Ceasar or not. As He told them, “give Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and God what is God’s. your company has made millions off the secular dollar now you want to cry religious freedom, that’s a foul and I am upset about it. You also have to think about other relious beliefs. What if your boss is a Jehovah’s Witness and does not want to cover your blood transfusion or organ transplant. When you open this type of legal pandora box you never know what will come out. I do not want my employer dictating my health coverage.

  47. Holly lobby makes me proud to be a christian. To many christians do not stand up for there convictions. This world seems to have no integrity any more. good for you. I will be praying for you that God will continue to give you hope and peace .If more christians stood up for what is right our world would not be in the mess that it is in. I am 73 years old and i have seen some things that are OK now,that were against the law when i was a kid. it blows me away. How can people be so blind. Thank you for standing up for what is right.

    h

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