Congress is again showing its traditional contempt for the rule of law this week with members crying foul that Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, an Al Qaeda spokesman and son-in-law of Usama bin Laden, would be actually given a fair trial. Senators like Lindsey Graham (who just yesterday condemned a fellow Senator for standing against Obama kill list policy) has denounced the decision not to give Abu Ghaith a military tribunal trial where basic constitutional protections are denied to detainees.
Abu Ghaith pleaded not guilty in federal court to charges of conspiracy to kill Americans. Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham and Kelly Ayotte, called the Obama administration’s decision to bring Abu Ghaith to court in New York City “sneaky.” It is now considered “sneaky” to give an accused person a fair trial. Such comments are an on-going embarrassment to this country as was Obama’s decision to continue to play a Caesar-like role in sending some detainees to Gitmo for a trumped up trial and some to a real court of law.
Graham and others continually remind the world of our hypocrisy in the treatment of detainees. We have created two systems of law — one for average people and one for people we hate or fear. It is the very antithesis of the rule of law and has been rightfully condemned around the world. While senators continually refer to who these defendants are, they spend little time discussing who we are and who we have become since 9-11.
As someone who has handled national security and terrorism cases, I can say that the odds remains exceptionally high for conviction in such cases. Before 9-11, a loss of such a case was exceptionally rare. We have a crisis of faith where we have lost our trust in our Constitution and our court system. With each of the tribunal trials, our credibility falls and the enemy succeeds. Terrorism is designed to change the way people act; to cause self-inflicted wounds. The greatest such injury is to turn our back on our core principles of due process and equal treatment. The administration should be commended for trying this man in a real court and should go further to shutdown the tribunal system which have produced few convictions while destroying the credibility of this nation.
Source: Fox
Actually, we have three systems of law: rich, average and hated.
But you point is well taken; members of Congress need to reread both the Constitution and their oaths – they display either abysmal ignorance of willful disregard.
Brennan may still drop a hellfire on him.
Actually, I think Spain should be where this trip should occur…. I noticed I put trip…it should be trial…. But hey…. Regardless of where he’s tried within the US confines….. I’m almost certain…. He will not get anything resembling Due Process….
Do people know scripture?’
Forgiveness
(Matthew 18:21-35)
14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not. 15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. 16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. 17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
King James Bible
http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/03/08/how-long-was-abu-ghaith-detained-in-jordan-was-he-tortured-there/ “How Long Was Abu Ghaith Detained in Jordan? Was He Tortured There?”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/06/obama-promise-close-guantanamo-worse “Obama promised to close Guantánamo. Instead, he’s made it worse”
Rand Paul: Try, Convict and Lock Up Terrorists In Guantanamo
Published on 19 November 2009 by admin in General News
For Immediate Release
November 19, 2009
BOWLING GREEN, KENTUCKY – Leading United States Senate candidate Rand Paul today criticized the Obama administration’s decision to close the Guantanamo Bay detention center and try terrorism suspects in United States Civil Courts.
“Foreign terrorists do not deserve the protections of our Constitution,” said Dr. Paul. “These thugs should stand before military tribunals and be kept off American soil. I will always fight to keep Kentucky safe and that starts with cracking down on our enemies.”
That’s quite a statement from the aspiring presidential candidate, Rand Paul. It is clear to see whom he was trying to appeal to.
Good catch Swarthmore! It is also interesting that a day or two after Lindsey Graham scolded Rand Paul for scaremongering and encroaching on executive authority, he does the exact same thing.
He’s an enemy combatant captured outside the United States. It sets a bad precedent.
Yesterday? That never happened. Tomorrow? Doesn’t matter. Today is all that counts because people/country don’t care what we just said yesterday. (And only party counts so I will say whatever I think will get them behind me.)
anonymuse,
it is the correct thing to do. Our system is designed to handle criminals just like Abu Ghaith.
Senators like Lindsey Graham should refresh their memory of the Boston Massacre trials with John Adams defending the British soldiers.
Basically, 5 protesting citizens died of gunshot wounds fired by 8 British soldiers on the night of March 5, 1770 who were then indicted and formally arraigned on charges of murder in connection with the massacre. John Adams agreed to lead the soldiers’ defense and Robert Quincy (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence) was assigned as prosecutor. The soldiers were tried before the Superior Court of Judicature in Boston. (Sept. thru Dec. 1770)
Six of the soldiers are acquitted on all charges. Two soldiers, Montgomery and Killroy were convicted of manslaughter but then pleaded “the benefit of clergy” to reduce their punishment to branding. Sheriff Greenleaf branded the two men on their right thumbs. The soldiers returned to the Twenty-ninth Regiment, which had left Boston following the Massacre.
“I have reason to remember that fatal Night. The Part I took in Defense of Captn. Preston and the Soldiers, procured me Anxiety, and Obloquy enough. It was, however, one of the most gallant, generous, manly, and disinterested Actions of my whole Life, and one of the best Pieces of Service I ever rendered my Country.” –John Adams
That’s who we are, Senators.
“It is the very antithesis of the rule of law and has been rightfully condemned around the world.”
Crazoids like Lindsay Graham have done a lot to bring our reputation for sophisticated jurisprudence down to historic levels.
“We have created two systems of law — one for average people and one for people we hate or fear.”
I would argue we have three system, the two above as you describe, and a third for the rich and well connected where they can rob banks, facilitate murder through drug loads (thus reap profits in the banking of drug money) and face no criminal charges.
Yes indeed, this “terrorism” cry has gone on far too long.
The Boston Massacre was more like the Kent State massacre where the Ohio National Guard opened fire at Kent State killing 4, injuring 9. 8 guardsmen charged, none convicted. Guess the students shot themselves.
SWM, My comment to you got picked up by the censor. So, I would suggest you put, Greedy, Lying, B@stards on you list of movies to watch. Just read about it in rainy San Diego. Emporer gets tepid reviews, I will probably pass.
bettykath,
No one could conclusively ascertain who gave the order/fired… but that just might be changing as forensic technology has taken quite a leap forward and there is an audio tape!
KSU was just up the street from where I was living at the time of the Massacre. The town was a wreck from rioters. The truckloads of National Guardsmen being shipped in was scary as he!!.
“We have a crisis of faith where we have lost our trust in our Constitution and our court system.”
JT,
I must disagree. With Lindsey Graham and his ilk, they never had any faith in our Constitution to begin with. Their faith only resides in the expediency of getting what they want by whatever means possible.
Lindsey Graham Is Nervous
By Charles P. Pierce
Mar 8, 2013
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Vapors_Again
United States authorities have arrested a fat guy in Jordan. The fat guy was so out of shape that he recently was staying in a luxury hotel in Turkey rather than jihadding up a storm in the mountain passes of Waziristan. This is a big deal because the fat guy is the son-in-law of Osama bin Laden, and he’s been spouting off, and much worse, for over a decade, and now that they’ve got him, the feds would like to put the old fat guy on trial. convict him, and send the fat guy off to Chateau du SuperMax until time shall be no more.
Which is, of course, Lindsey Graham’s cue to come up with the shivery shakes. Again.
“If this man, the spokesman of 9/11, isn’t an enemy combatant, who is??…”he should be going to Gitmo. He should be kept there and questioned.”
Yes, because the nation and the world is crying out for us to start filling up that place again. This wasn’t somebody whom we can’t try because we tortured him, or hired the job out, and now the evidence is inadmissable because we all became dingbats about law enforcement after 9/11. This was a classic bust at an airport. This is what should have happened to Whitey Bulger back in the day. This isn’t a deadly dangerous guy who’s going to shoot magic Muslim beams out of his eyes and melt the walls of the courthouse around him. This is a fat guy we picked off an airplane in Kuwait. It’s time we all climbed out from behind the chiffarobe and started acting like a grown-up democracy again, and Lesson No. 1 is to stop listening to senators overcome by The Vapors. I hate to overwork the old girl on Graham’s behalf but, really, now.
The Courts do not have faith in them at all. Faith is waiting for death to be no more. KJV,1 Corinthians 15:55.I ,and having faith in Jesus even thought with your eyes not able to see him have faith that one day he will appear. Jesus has mercy in him. Courts have no mercy. Jesus says overcome evil with good. What does the court system do? They give evil for evil is what they do scoffing at the one who is the king of faith Jesus Christ.
Lindsey Graham is supposed to be a lawyer. He should know better. Or perhaps he does not trust the legal system.
Blouise,
I think you misunderstand the circumstances of the Boston Massacre Trial.
The Court was “His Majesty’s Superior Court of Judicature” and everyone involved were subject of His Majesty.
It was not a trial of them vs. us. We were all the same in 1770. It would have been the same if today three members of the U.S. Military went into Boston and shot a bunch of people. Those soldiers would be tried in the Court of the state in which they did the killing.
nick, We seem to be in a slow period for movies. I am going to be busy with lots of visiting family and travel so I don’t mind so much
rafflaw, should every single enemy combatant that was captured in Afghanistan, Iraq, or other places in the Middle East over the past 10 years (that would be many many thousands of prisoners) have been transfered to New York for trial? If not, why is this one so special?
What does that verse say? Is there any other interpretation? Had people be like Jesus is there would have not been trillions,and trillions of dollars spent on killing people. Killing never soles anything, but bull headed people do it anyway.Jails are a t0ool of the devil. Why do p3eople like using the tool of the devil. Jesus says overcome evil with good. What have people consistently done. The enemy is right saying the USDA is evil.Unfortunately they learned toi be evil beholding us. Having them behold good for-real will help them to change to be good too. Those that do not change will see Gods glory as hell. Religion thinks of I caught you. That is what they did to Jesus. Non are special. It is what God told me to do. I see some pastors attacked by devils defending them too. .I defend whoever by whatever name. I am only following the commands of my Lord and savor.
What does that verse say? Is there any other interpretation? Had people be like Jesus is there would have not been trillions, and trillions of dollars spent on killing people. Killing never soles anything, but bull headed people do it anyway. Jails are a tool of the devil. Why do people like using the tool of the devil? Jesus says overcome evil with good. What have people consistently done. The enemy is right saying the USA is evil. Unfortunately they learned to be evil beholding us. Having them behold good for-real will help them to change to be good too. Those that do not change will see Gods glory as hell. Religion thinks of I caught you. That is what they did to Jesus. None are special. It is what God told me to do. I see some pastors attacked by devils defending them too. .I defend whoever by whatever name. I am only following the commands of my Lord and savor.
and Elaine the media I heard, and some of the congresspeople, are trying to make it that this is a situation that should give us great fear, that this guy is in NYC, trying to stir up a frenzy against him, which will also help keep people wanting the drones available to kill the ‘bad guys’, whomever they might be, esp if they are in the US
Because we die to God all of us are bad guys. To kill or even want to kill kills the soul. Jesus came to save it. People need to think in the reverse of what peoiple used to think. In other words to shoot a gun to kill calling it good will back fire on the soul. We have to have spiritual eyes to see what is not seen to save the soul in Gods kingdom that to us is not seen.
Yo JT: Please address what the international rules of law require here. Talk about what we enacted in the Nuremberg Trials of Germans and other Nazis Folks: Google: The Judges Trial at Nuremberg. There is a good book written by one of the prosecutors named Whitney Harris and the book is called Tyranny On Trial.
Some more precise us of words is important here. A “detainee” is a person detained. A “defendant” is one accused of a crime. The detainee may be a defendant and when he is convicted he is a convict. The twain dont always meet.
All are criminals because of what our body does to life, and because the body dies. The KJV does not say condemn be condemned for nothing.
Don’t you know that religious people think captured? One side needs to stop teaching the other how to be like the people against Jesus. When they do both sides will be like Jesus.
I put this on that page.
Jailing never solves anything. jailing is the devils way. People need to stop letting fear guide you. That never ends well. Jesus says love your enemy. That saves your soul. Fear losing the body, war. Jesus sets people free. How about doing what Jesus would do.
“The administration should be commended for trying this man in a real court and should go further to shutdown the tribunal system which have produced few convictions while destroying the credibility of this nation.”
Well said Jonathan. He should be given a “fair” trial just like Osama Bin Laden was. Oh wait……. Osama was just assassinated when he could just as easily have been captured in his compound in Pakistan and brought to trial in the US.
At the end of the day I doubt it will matter one iota whether Abu Ghaith is tried in the civil court or before some military court because the result will almost certainly be very similar. What is really surprising is that this guy was not simply dealt the same treatment as Osama Bin Laden which no one seemed to object to. In fact it was all big smiles and huge congratulations all around at the news of Obama’s demise especially from the nobel peace prize winner.
Short memories.
Why all the huffing and puffing now over Abu Ghaith when Bin laden was simply executed gleefully in an apparent planned assassination?
@arthewhitefox claims “Jailing never solves anything. jailing is the devils way.”
Are you suggesting we just open wide all the prison doors in the world, give them a bible, and set them on their way?
Forgiveness does not include taking compete leave of your senses, certainly not to the extent you are willing to put so many other people at risk so you can have your powerless platitudes.
I understand maybe you want to help. This isn’t it.
Exactly. Devils think killing is the answer. When will people learn that killing is not an answer for anything? That is not the way Jesus thinks. That is the way the people thought against him. We must get away from that way of thinking. Mercy, and compassion will take its place. That will save the soul. People will see that saving more souls.
I can picture Lindsey Graham Cracker saying the word “sneaky”.
But I do not see what is sneaky about affording someone a trial when you have arrested them and hold them in custody. Would Lindsey like a SC trial? Quantico? Cuba? How about Den Haag? International Court of Criminal Justice?
My God you are not going to give him a lawyer are you? And a jury?
How would Lindsey Graham of SC liked this one: Arrest the offspring of South Carolinians who seceeded from the United States in 1860. Hold them without bail, trial, and hold them in Cuba. How about in-laws of offspring of South Carolinian secessionists? Justice? Fair Trial?
It is more than setting them free giving them a KJV bible. They must know that to give good now will reap an eternal reward latter. Teach that good builds a strong foundation by doing to others what you want done to you. Teaching that eternity is as real as the expanse of the universe around them.
Teach that to shoot a gun spiritually backfires on the soul that is not seen. Teach them that that is the reason Jesus did not use a weapon to save his body. That is because Jesus was protecting his soul. Teach that we to save our soul must do likewise. To do so inherit a gift greater than they can imagine. The consequence of condemning accusing st3ealing doing what Jesus would not do will result in the opposite to eternal life. Teach that hell is not eternal suffering like religions taught. It is eternal soul death just before seeing a gift that Satan will rush toward for the first time committing suicide to try and get it. That is in Revelation 20. Teach that doing good now by God’s grace with a humble spirit will ensure that you will be in the city watching the people that refused to be like Jesus is in his forgiving childlike spirit that judges himself seeking peace with all men showing mercy not giving evil for evil preserving the unseen soul for better things that this earth could never give. We are responsible for our ultimate destiny by what we do,.
Forgiveness saves the soul. People forget that Jesus did what he did to save his soul. Mercy will get mercy. The mercy will not be seeing what hell is. A Hell that religions do not teach. Moses came as close as any human to seeing it and surviving. Had God suddenly turned around looking at him the Ten commandments would have never been known. Ash’s can’t carry two tablets of stone off of a mountain..
Forgiveness saves the soul. People forget that Jesus did what he did to save his soul. Mercy will get mercy. The mercy will not be seeing what hell is. A Hell that religions do not teach. Moses came as close as any human to seeing it and survive. Had God suddenly turned around looking at him the Ten commandments would have never been known. Ash’s can’t carry two tablets of stone off of a mountain..
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All need to be taught that there is a final judgment so people don’t think that they can give judgment. To harm another is a form of human judgment.