Presence of Militia Groups Who Support Cliven Bundy Alarming Some Nevada Residents and Hurting Businesses

Submitted by Elaine Magliaro, Weekend Contributor

It appears that the militia groups who arrived in Nevada to support Cliven Bundy with his standoff against the Bureau of Land Management have become a cause of concern for some residents, workers, and businesses in the area surrounding Bunkerville.

Horsford talks Bunkerville militia presence with Rachel Maddow

KLAS-TV/News NOW (Las Vegas) reported on April 29th that hotels in Mesquite had suffered financial losses of more than $100,000 due to concerns about armed militia groups patrolling in the area. News NOW learned that Mesquite police were investigating death threats made to hotel workers following a bomb threat earlier in April.

Evidently, the threats multiplied as armed militia groups continued to pour into the area surrounding Cliven Bundy’s ranch. One city leader in Mesquite said that “the entire Holiday Inn Express was evacuated for hours following a bomb threat related to the Bundy saga…” News NOW obtained a police report which showed that the Holiday Inn Express had received at least nine threatening telephone calls after the hotel allowed BLM rangers to stay there. Hotel workers were told to kick out the BLM or they “would not be standing in the morning.” One hotel worker, who refused to go on camera, claimed that he was told by an anonymous militia member that he would be “dragged out in the parking lot and shot”.

“We are not a playground for armed militias,” Rep. Steven Horsford, D-Nev., said during a meeting with area leaders about the militia. Horsford said that he had been contacted by residents of his district who were concerned about the armed militia groups from out of state who were still present in their area. Horsford was told by residents that militia groups had set up checkpoints where residents must prove they live in the area before they are allowed to pass…” He was also told that they had set up a “persistent presence” along federal highways, and state and county roads.

Rep. Horsford wrote a letter to the Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie asking him “to look into complaints that militiamen had been present in Bunkerville-area schools and churches and had set up armed checkpoints on state, federal and county roads, seeking proof of residency from motorists.” Horsford said in his letter, “We must respect individual constitutional liberties, but residents of and visitors to Clark County should not be expected to live under the persistent watch of an armed militia. Residents have expressed their desire to see these groups leave their community.” Horsford added that his constituents were being forced to “‘live under the persistent watch of an armed militia,’ that answers to no particular authority other than its own, and is accountable to no one.” He urged the sheriff “to work with local leaders to ensure that their concerns are addressed in a manner that allows the community to move forward without incident.”

Note: A News NOW crew that was in Bunkerville last Tuesday said it did not find any roadblocks in the area “with militia members checking on people trying to pass.”

The StarTribune reported that Bundy’s neighbors and local authorities have grown weary of the Nevada rancher’s unresolved dispute with the BLM. Bundy has denied that any militia members had set up checkpoints on public property. A group of militia members, however, was reported to have stopped a neighboring rancher who was trucking cattle to Arizona. Bundy said the milita members were just helping his son. “They wanted to ensure that Bundy cattle weren’t being rustled.”

Militias’ Ongoing Presence in Nevada Creates Fear and Friction

Cliven Bundy’s Home on the Range (A Mark Fiore Video)


Concerns growing about militia members at Bundy ranch (KLAS-TV)

Businesses lose thousands in Bundy ordeal (KLAS-TV)

Congressman: Bundy Militia Has Set Up Road ‘Checkpoints’ In Nevada (Talking Points Memo)

Bundy Ranch ‘Militia’ Considered Using Women As Human Shield (Talking Points Memo)

Businesses lose thousands in Bundy ordeal (KLAS-TV/News NOW)

Neighbors grow weary of ‘militia’ remaining with Nevada cattle rancher in federal land dispute (StarTribune)

Nevada Congressman Seeks Probe Of Armed Militia Operations At Cliven Bundy Ranch (Reuters/Huffington Post)

Sheriff urged to clamp down on armed militiamen around Bundy ranch (Las Vegas Sun)

Bundy’s ”Militia” Is Lawlessness of a Different Color (Truth-Out)

Ongoing Militia Presence Raises Fears Among Locals Near Bundy Ranch (Southern Poverty Law Center)

NV lawmaker presses sheriff to probe Bundy militiamen (FOX 5/KVVU-TV)

Nevada lawmaker: Cliven Bundy supporters are setting up ‘checkpoints’ against residents (Raw Story)

The Dark Side Of Cliven Bundy’s Conservative Media-Approved Militia (Media Matters)

The views expressed in this posting are the author’s alone and not those of the blog, the host, or other weekend bloggers. As an open forum, weekend bloggers post independently without pre-approval or review. Content and any displays or art are solely their decision and responsibility.

250 thoughts on “Presence of Militia Groups Who Support Cliven Bundy Alarming Some Nevada Residents and Hurting Businesses

  1. In some rural communities it takes very little to ignite those who are insecure, fearful, filled with resentment, and primed for violence in the US as well as in other countries.

  2. SOP. If these ‘militias’ were instead Black Panthers or a group of Latinos from the National Farm Workers Association, or a gathering of Native Americans who are part of National Congress of American Indians, this would be considered an act of aggression and the white dominated security state would be there with guns blazing. It’s disturbing when these white ‘militias’ can get away with this type of action and the security state turns a blind eye, but if it’s a group of color it’s a resistance that demands a swift and strong response. It’s all BS. These ‘militia’ types are nothing more than uninformed, misled, clueless, white, fanatical gun owners who have nothing better to do than support a rancher who is stealing from the American taxpayer.

  3. Who will save us all.

    Of course, Uncle Clarence, Blind Willie McTell, and the military NSA cause they know everything (Stockholm Syndrome on Steroids? – 2) there is to know between the ears.

    The new software being de-bugger here, like destabilization efforts all around the world, has the same behavioral concepts.

    Destroy in order to save.

  4. Joel McHale had some hilarious barbs @ the Correspondence Dinner last night. He started talking about “That lesbian reporter on MSNBC, you know..Chris Hayes.”

  5. Steak tartare Sunday. MSNBC, Media Matters x 3, Truth Out, SPLC, Huffpo, I had all types of sources in my biz. I ALWAYS considered the perspective of my sources. Of course, my job was to find the truth.

  6. McHale asked if it would be appropriate to give Bill Clinton a cigar when Chelsea has her baby. Ouch. He compared Boehner to an orange highway cone. He ripped Chris Christie who was there and laughing @ the barbs. Obama doesn’t laugh when you barb him.

  7. Fascists with military level weapons marauding and provoking. Whites connected to the Tea Party with backing from the NRA and Washington crumbles. Why isn’t there a category for these criminals. There is a category for them if they were black and still ticked off over being enslaved for centuries to make the whites rich. There is a category if they were indigenous and still ticked off over having their land stolen by types like Bundy and his retard friends. There is a category if they were latino and discriminated against and/or used as cheap labor. But there is no category for retards, armed to the teeth, openly challenging the laws that are there to protect us all. Go figure. Go as Boehner, Trump, and the rest of the fascist right wing.

    If the GOP really wanted to start to heal its sick and sorry ass, it would condemn this retard first before Obama does something. This is a prime example of spineless politicians.

  8. The sources I “attack” as liberal are the ones that are liberal. There are other sources I did not “attack” as liberal because they are not liberal. Pretty basic stuff.

  9. I have deleted a series of comments by different posters that quickly turned this thread into another repeat of last weekend comments on Elaine’s posting. I am not interested in who started what. Posters are allowed to question the points or sources of authors. That goes with the territory. We ask them not to personalize the criticism. I am particularly not interested in seeing a repeat by the same individuals of the personal posts on who should leave or who has left or why someone should be banned. Ninety-nine percent of the comments and commenters on the site see no need to engage in personal criticisms. It is literally half a dozen commenters who repeatedly drag the comments section back into personal tit-for-tats while accusing each other of being uncivil. We are not going to let the comment section get bogged down like last weekend and we are still deleting what appears to be false alias which appear predictably on these threads to try to start fights over past issues. Please focus on the merits of Elaine’s post and not the personalities or past controversies.

  10. How real are those “fears” and how politically motivated are the people who complain?

    Every time somebody stands up in public to say that he/she is afraid, I have to ask whether the emotions are partisan or real.

  11. Obama took a few jabs @ Bundy, linking him to Rand Paul w/ humor and mocking Bundy’s use of “Negro.”

  12. Nick,

    I always look for the truth. I have often been criticized for using lots of sources/links for my articles and follow-up comments. FYI: I did not use MSNBC as a source. Reuters was the source for the Huffington Post article. What say you about some of the other sources that I used–which include FOX 5/KVVU-TV, KLAS-TV/News NOW, StarTribune, and Las Vegas Sun? Have you read my article? Have you found that it is filled with misinformation? Have you found that the sources that I used misrepresented the facts? If so, please let us know what is incorrect in my post and I will correct it.

  13. Elaine, The Las Vegas Sun is the liberal paper in town and the Star Tribune is pretty liberal. I cut some slack on those 2 actually. There are, quite unfortunately, very few reliable sources anymore. But, there are some that are just really @ the extremes on both ends of the spectrum. I pointed the sources that are extreme, the Sun and StarTribune[which I read often] are just run of the mill left.

    Seeking truth is one of the most satisfying careers one can have. Truth often surprises and disappoints. It is often ugly but the fact that is the truth gives it an inherent beauty. I know, as do most people, the truth is hardly ever @ either extreme. It’s often layered, complicated, almost never simple.

    I did read your piece. I read all pieces by everyone. I read all comments and chastise those who don’t. Let me repeat what I had to several times on your last Bundy thread. I think he is a buffoon and I am mystified @ the attention he gets from BOTH sides of the spectrum and the media. His 15 minutes of fame has turned into an epic. Are people weary of him and all the commotion. Well, Duh. Who the hell wouldn’t be if they lived around him. I consider this a tempest in a teapot. I consider this a distraction, a freak show, akin to Honey Boo and Duck Dynasty. Go to right wing blogs and I’m sure there are right wing sourced pieces making this guy into Patrick Henry. Bundy provides red meat to both sides. We know too much read meat will kill you.

  14. Nick,

    Do you have any knowledge of FOX 5/KVVU-TV and KLAS-TV/News NOW?
    Do you believe that all of the sources that I used misrepresented the facts? Did you find my article to be untrue? I can say for myself that I wouldn’t want any out-of-state militia groups who are wielding lethal weapons hanging around the area where I live…and stopping the people who live here to check to see if they are residents. Bundy and his disciples may be buffoons. They could possibly become dangerous buffoons. If the residents of the Bunkerville area are concerned about what is going on where they live, they have every right to be concerned and to ask their representative to look into the problem for them.

  15. People are not weary of the Bundy saga and it should NOT be brushed under the rug. It’s obviously ongoing with these militia fools encamped on his property. It’s a dangerous situation which could end in loss of life or injury. It’s a hairs breath away from insurrection.

  16. Precisely Elaine, dangerous buffoons, the worst kind. As for regular run of the mill buffoons, ho hum.

  17. Elaine, No. No. Don’t know. I am impressed w/ your deep concern for the good citizens of Bunkerville, Nevada.

  18. There is absolutely NOTHING ho hum about a bunch of idiots , bullies, with big guns setting up checkpoints anywhere in the USA.

    I would think a libertarian would be raising holy hell.

  19. I love the news video where the guy says:

    ‘we are not to pull over citizens ….pause..pause..pause um, ….without reasonable cause’.


    Also loved the shots of these idiots in the back of the truck with their guns. Looked just like scenes in the Sudan. You know, where there is great fear that another Rwanda may occur.

    Man, we are SO fu*ked up.

    But some are puzzled about our concern?

  20. This is just fodder for the anti-gun folks who want to disarm us so that the terrorist and the White House have free reign over our country. When the revolution starts our military, and our police forces will rise up against the established politicians then peace, prosperity, and freedom will return to our nation. The militia conducted themselves quite well and no one should fear them.

  21. Hefner,
    Really? My daughter, who has been in the military since 2002, is a liberal progressive Democrat, who I assure you won’t rise up against her own government. There are many latos and African Americans in the military, they won’t commit treason either. Don’t like this country? Leave it.

  22. “Love it or leave it” was the mantra of hard hats supporting Nixon and the Viet Nam war. If one wants to understand history one must have an appreciation of irony.

  23. If one wants to commit treason, one would be a traitor. To take up arms against one’s own government is now patriotic? That is FU’d.

  24. And no one must LOVE it. No one expects blind acceptance. Insurrection is another thing altogether. Reasonable would recognize this immediately.

  25. Wasn’t one of the Baldwins going to leave America, but surely he was a patriot.? Nixon inherited a war from Kennedy and Johnson, just to clear the record. And it was a war we would not have been in if we, under Truman, had forced the French to leave Vietnam alone.

  26. I know this will make your head hurt, but the working theory is that if the government has gotten out of control, then a revolution is necessary to correct it. So yes, you can be a patriot and leave your country.

  27. Actually Paul,
    Eisenhower sent “advisors” to Vietnam and when Dien Ben Phu folded we were paying for half of the French bills in Vietnam. Check out the Pentagon Papers.

  28. OK, all those in favor of overturning this government raise your hands, the NSA probably already knows your name and address. So speak up “patriots” don’t be shy.

  29. Paul, Half of Hollywood said they were leaving if Bush got reelected. He did, they didn’t.

  30. Dems and Rep both did a great job screwing up Viet Nam, but any objective observer would admit LBJ both escalated it and micromanaged us into a quagmire.

  31. rafflaw – the advisers were advising. We send advisers a lot of places, Columbia, for one. JFK ramped it up and Johnson really ramped it.

  32. Yeah, those dolts in Bunkerville are real polite. Put the women and children in front to take the bullets. Stop townspeople at armed checkpoints, as if they have some sort of authority. Buffoons and loons with guns, real good combination.

  33. Paul, I read in the Boston paper today that the Kennedy School of Govt. gave old man Bush a Profile in Courage Award for raising taxes in 1990. What award did they give Clinton, Carville, etc. for eviscerating him. The Kennedy’s are such a crock o’ shit.

  34. Annie,

    I can’t keep up. I thought it was said that Nam was Truman’s fault. I mean there we were, cleaning up the war in the Pacific, occupying Japan, putting together the Marshall Plan, Europeans starving, why, oh why, didn’t Truman just pick a fight with France. I’m sure the troops wouldn’t have minded another six months or so before they got home. That Truman. What a wuss.

  35. Paul,
    The advisors were there to assist the South Vietnamese break away from Vietnam, even after we stated we would do nothing to break the Geneva Accords which stated that elevtionsbwould be held to unify North and South. And you forgot about the millions we were spending to support the French. We weren’t leaving Vietnam after that investment.

  36. raff

    a question..

    If the Middle East is oil, is it fair to suppose that in Nam, between 1945 and 1954, our interest was rubber? Or had synthetic rubber already been developed?

  37. Paul,
    Our interest in any war is more than one reason. Elaine is correct that synthetic rubber was in use at least during WWII.

  38. The Causes of the Vietnam War
    From The Oxford Companion to American Military History. Ed. John Whiteclay Chambers II. New York: Oxford UP, 1999. Copyright © 1999 by Oxford UP.

    Most American wars have obvious starting points or precipitating causes: the Battles of Lexington and Concord in 1775, the capture of Fort Sumter in 1861, the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, and the North Korean invasion of South Korea in June 1950, for example. But there was no fixed beginning for the U.S. war in Vietnam. The United States entered that war incrementally, in a series of steps between 1950 and 1965. In May 1950, President Harry S. Truman authorized a modest program of economic and military aid to the French, who were fighting to retain control of their Indochina colony, including Laos and Cambodia as well as Vietnam. When the Vietnamese Nationalist (and Communist-led) Vietminh army defeated French forces at Dienbienphu in 1954, the French were compelled to accede to the creation of a Communist Vietnam north of the 17th parallel while leaving a non-Communist entity south of that line. The United States refused to accept the arrangement. The administration of President Dwight D. Eisenhower undertook instead to build a nation from the spurious political entity that was South Vietnam by fabricating a government there, taking over control from the French, dispatching military advisers to train a South Vietnamese army, and unleashing the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to conduct psychological warfare against the North.

  39. synthetic rubber had been in use all through ww2. we were doing a lot with breaking up hydrocarbon chains in petroleum around that time. i think vietnam was mostly france trying to reclaim their colonies in the area. as a plus to the french it gave them something to do with some of the ex-nazis in europe. they ( the french) didn’t have work camps to send them to like the soviets did. i don’t think we had any real economic interests in the region other than stopping the spread of communism. (that worked out well didn’t it)

  40. Paul,
    I think Eisenhower told us in his farewell speech what the main reason was for fighting in Vietnam, in violation of the Geneva Accords of 1954. The accords split Vietnam into two sections, until elections could be held. The US didn’t want elections because we knew that Ho Chi Minh would win any election. He actually came to us for help before going to the communists so the idea that the war was mainly to fight communism is spin. Corporations can always make money in war.

  41. re: rubber thanks Elaine and raff too damn tired to keep searching. and I hate Bing search but can’t get firefox to let the default be google….

  42. Paul Schulte
    Elaine – an armed society is a polite society.
    = = =
    An armed society is one that lives in fear of their neighbor shooting them.

  43. Speaking of being in fear of your neighbor shooting you, off topic, but yesterday was the 44th anniversary of the Kent State killings. A very sad day that I will never forget.

  44. rafflaw,
    Yes, a sad day indeed.
    However the neighbor shooting at the students were an armed National Guard.

  45. pete, thanks to you too.

    Ahhh yes. The old domino theory. I had no idea France had been in Nam since 1856 or something. My underlying education regarding Nam is Enzio singing Some Enchanted Evening to Mary Martin. I think it could use some brushing up.

  46. Max1

    If you’re still around. I responded to you about CEO prosecutions. I thought not much had been done with the CA/Enron screwing except getting Grey Davis recalled. Lay and Skilling HAD to be prosecuted after they grabbed their money and ran as Enron was going belly up. Am I mistaken?

  47. Why not call these gangs what they are gangs of terrorists. Their goal is to terrorize the area into submitting to their “there is no government but us” mentality. Unless something is done while they are in their beginning stages we will witness a ME situation right here in the US. That is apparently what these guys want.

  48. Justice Holmes
    Why not call these gangs what they are gangs of terrorists.

    because they are white, republican/libertarian, and christian.

    if the feds or the sheriffs office really wants to go in and stop it they should do it during duck dynasty.

    kind of like washington attacking the hessians on christmas.

  49. No matter how comical or bizarre Bundy and those who follow him are, it is important to recognize how and why they act this way to address them.

    The militia movement is not completely aligned in their politics or resolve but they have some common elements of many among them.

    Most of them organize themselves in such a way that they do not consider themselves to be domestic terrorists, as many have ascribed them to being, they regard themselves as the vangard and / or the last protectors of liberty of individual citizens’ rights and freedoms of ordinary people from tyrrany. They tend to be split into two separate groups.

    One group is, probably the more dangerous of the two, is aligned with the political goal of the sovereign citizen movement (a primer here ). I suspect that Bundy, as evidenced by some of his speeches, is sympathetic to this group but I don’t think he was, at least in the beginning, a member of a militia in the core sense. He probably embraces those who have joined his cause after the fact but I don’t have enough information on this to be conclusive. Sovereign citizens tend to advocate that the federal government has no jurisdiction over them. The do not recognize things such as driver licenses or federal income taxes. Many do not recognize city government law enforcement, state law enforcement or federal government but tend to at least in some respect county sheriffs because they believe they are legitimate beause they are elected by the people. Most in this group are irritating at best but generally keep to themselves but have their own political beliefs. There is a significantly large number (but less than the former) group that is very edgy and to some extent willing to resort to violence when actively confronted by government agents or Law enforcement officers. There have been several murders of LEOs by these and agencies, especially in rural areas, must take these guys seriously. The latter goup is more likely to organize where the more docile is most likely to be loosly associated by have common goals.

    The second group are those who do not follow the sovereign citizen movement but view themselves as either recreational in nature, more as hobbyists but available in the event of some kind of need to protect people. These individual groups are harmless. But there is another faction of the group that is between the sovereign citizens and this more passive group. These individuals support the constitution, individual liberty and property rights. They tend to consider themselves as state citizens slightly more than they consider themselves to be US citizens. They don’t necessarily believe they are at war with the US, nor want to overthrow the government but they believe in many respects the US government has for the past 15 or 20 years began to further encroach on ordinary people and is engaged in taking away their liberty, for which if it becomes to aggressive they are justified in retaking America back from politicians and out of control government agencies that are against ordinary people. These people are those who became energized after the Ruby Ridge Fiasco in Idaho and the Waco Seige, but after the Oklahoma City bombing many backed off due to sympathy to those who died but a splinter type of group felt emboldened. (a small group comparatively). After the 2001 terrorist attacks the goups became less vocal and visible as some form of patriot leanings were that the US citizens were being attacked and they believed the government was doing what it could to combat foreign enemies and most were supportive or at least less vocal. They had also tended to lose a lot of support after the OK city bombing. But, many of the militia groups began stirring under the radar as the public became more, largely, less trusting in the federal goverment. What the second group is especially worried or angry about is the perception of federal agencies taking away land and what rural individuals consider their birthrights. Property rights especially.

    The Bundy situation was a cause célèbre with both of these two groups. The groups believe, those in the more activist splinters especially, that the federal government is increasingly taking property rights away from individual citizens. Rural American culture is very strong on property rights and individualism, especially those having or using rangeland. They resent having their land marginalized especially through what they believe to be pretexts such as environmental laws or administrative rulings for which they do not recognize as being legitimate legislation. Their beliefs are not completely without merit as there have been many land grabs and reductions in the freedoms of property owners by goverment agencies especially with the US Forest Service and more recently the BLM. They especially resent eminent domain on rural areas. The perception might be higher than the reality but nevertheless it is what they believe.

    What Bundy represents to these groups as a man who was victimized by the BLM and restrictive government regulation, especially with the endangered turtle in the area and the fact that Bundy is only one of three families that have retained the use of the rangeland, which Bundy’s family and others have used in some cases for over a hundred years. I belive formerly there were probably 40 or 50 ranchers that used these lands and the government administratively forced them out of the grazing rights. This was another proof to the militias and Bundy that the land grab and destruction of their way of life was happening to him. The issue of money, the million dollars in unpaid grazing fees, was part of the perceived unreasonable treatment of Bundy so his supporters do not recognize its legitimacy. The fact that Bundy said he paid the Nevada state fees plays into the militia sovereign citizens’ beliefs in that he paid a legitimate state/county fee but not the feds’.

    In rural culture, the rancher, is seen as an upstanding American who preserves a way of life they identify with, this demographic is sympathized by both of the two groups. Americanism, individuality, and rural eithics are held also. It is especially much more in the American West than it is in Cities or the East.

    The incident where the Bundy family was confronted in which SWAT team like BLM rangers and two individuals were tased (I use this for reference purposes) when word of this spread it began to energize the sovereign citizens and the more aggressive factions of the militias, at least in their attention.

    When Bundy later decided to draw a line in the stand where they wanted to retrive their cattle from the impound pen the BLM created it had enormous propaganda capital in his favor. The message was made as a fact that he was a rancher trying to retrieve his illegally seized cattle and his fellow horseman, bearing US flags and such, were proud citizens who were willing to face the possibility (perceived, if or if not true) they would lay down their lives in defense of freedom in the face of a well armed SWAT team of BLM rangers who represented the icon of a repressive federal goverment bent on robbing them of their liberty. They garnered a lot of sympathy in many circles as they were the underdogs willing to take a stand for their cause. The scene with the BLM played right into Bundy’s hands and increased his following.

    In my view politicians and federal officials are making a strategic mistake to call these groups actively supporting Bundy and his followers domestic terrorists. That further supports in the minds of these individuals that the federal government is actively attempting to marginalize them or, given the 13 year so called “war on terrorism”, evidence that the federal government will eventually use force against them. It might resound well with the general public that is against their beliefs, but it is counter-productive for Bundy and his militia followers.

    The concern I have is if the federal government reacts in a way that is perceived to be menacing and an act of violences becomes perceived by these groups against them, we will see a real act of domestic terrorism levied against a government agency.

    The militias agitating the hotel and others in this example is by the most dangerous of these groups that probably is coming from several individuals acting among each other but are agitators. Of course many will not support them, but those who do will not object to this happeining because there is real hatred presently toward the BLM. I have to stress that the BLM has not always been an enemy, or even probably noticed by these militia groups as a whole before the Bundy issue became national news, but presently they are the enemy and those supporting them are viewed as such.

    The federal law enforcement agencies are in a difficult position in one respect. The federal government, cannot yield completely to an armed group making confrontational demands else it might elicit more of this elsewhere. But if they don’t attempt to take the wind out of these individuals who are making threats or violence soon (when it happens) the violent movement could grow.

    The worst case scenario would be for a Ruby Ridge or Waco incident and that is something the feds and everyone wants to avoid.

    One way would be to defeat the cause célèbre of Bundy by decreasing its profile. In my view the best outcome would be for a large number of his sympathizers to collect the million dollars he ows the feds in grazing fees and he then pays off the fines, the feds release the judgement against him publicly, and in privately someone from the US Goverment, through perhaps an intermediary, provides him with an address of his grazing rights to his satisfaction and let this matter quiety go away. This way Bundy can declare a public victory of such and the goverment can they declare Bundy submitted to paying his grazing fees. The BLM should then make statements that it is addressing the concerns of other ranchers and property owners, not those such as Bundy types but what is perceived to be ordinary individuals.

    If this happens, the militia types will have no front to fight against in the open sense. They are provided a sort of victory, but by the same token the government should give a soft force message that we as a sociaty cannot have people running around in trucks toting guns like in Somalia, and take a less visible force, while at the same time watching these groups and nabbing them if they make real criminal acts but not doing what can be perceived as being baiting or entrapping.

    Again, no matter how strange these folks are, it is a mistake to treat them as abstracts or in generalizations.

  50. An armed society looks like Syria. Is that really what we want for our country? The survival of the most brutal.

  51. Bundy has a god-is-talking-directly-to-me discourse and his followers have a god-gave-us-a-prophet class b authoritarian fixation.

    Mixed in with that is a heavy dose of ignorance, zealot rhetoric, and some lack of respect for our country.

  52. In my view, the sovereign citizen movement and the adversarial citizen movement share the property of being of an authoritarian theory in use combined with an authoritative theory espoused, while having models of reality which are inextricably adversarial in function while resolutely proclaiming otherwise.

    On Wikikpedia was to be found a few minutes ago,an article titled, Erikson’s stages of psychosocial development”…

    I note two, in-the-limit pathways in those stages.

    One pathway consists of Basic trust, Autonomy, Initiative, Industry, Identity, Intimacy, Generativity, and Ego Integrity; that is, as best I can discern, essentially the pathway my life has, in an overall sense, consistently taken.

    The other pathway consists of Mistrust, Shame and Doubt, Guilt, Inferiority, Role Confusion, Isolation, Stagnation, and Despair.

    The pathway my life seems to me to have taken is one of affirming life and life experiences, and is the functional antithesis of authoritarianism. The extreme-other pathway, which my life has not taken, is the pathway of authoritarianism, and authoritarianism, to be effective, has to destroy its alternative through being adversarial to individual autonomy.

    My bioengineering research has, with the people I have studied closely as individuals, demonstrated that about 98 percent of the people I have been able to closely study have adapted to life through the authoritarian pathway, and that about 2 percent have adapted to live through the autonomy pathway.

    In my research findings, those who travel the pathway from Mistrust to Despair may despair of the failure of authoritarianism to provide a truly thriving way of life for everyone. Authoritarianism may have been described about as well as may ever be necessary in Orwell’s “Animal Farm,” whereby, to maintain the freedom of authoritarian in a proclaimed-egalitarian society, all pigs are equal and some pigs are more equal.

    Who decides who is to play the authoritarian role in an authoritarian society? Those who have been most damaged by authoritarian socialization?

    From Ceremonial Chemistry: The Ritual Persecution of Drugs, addicts,and Pushers: Revised Edition, Syracuse University Press, 2003, by the late Thomas Szasz, Chapter 12, “THE CONTROL OF CONDUCT: AUTHORITY VERSUS AUTONOMY,” the two paragraphs; here quoted according to public safety interest copyright fair use:

    “There is only one political sin: independence; and only one political virtue: obedience. To put it differently, there is only one defense against authority: self-control; and only one obedience to it: submission to control by authority.
    Why is self-control, autonomy, such a threat to authority? Because the person who controls himself, who is his own master, has no need for an authority to be his master. This, then, renders authority unemployed. What is he to do if he cannot control others? To be sure, he could mind his own business. But this is a fatuous answer, for those who are satisfied to mind their own business do not aspire to become authorities. In short, authority needs subjects, persons not in command of themselves—just as parents need children and physicians need patients.”

    The main difficulty that I observe pervades authoritarianism, whether it takes the form of the rule of law, or the rule of sovereign citizenship, or some other form, is simply that authoritarianism stipulates that people are responsible for their actions while preventing people from having the self-control without which personal responsibility is impossible to actually achieve.

  53. Thank goodness the first militia groups in our country stood up against tyranny. When it’s done to day, it’s bad for business and some folks are concerned. lol

  54. Darren,
    Great ideas, but human nature being what it is on both sides, ain’t gonna happen. This is how I expect this scenario will play out. The FBI and other agencies learned a lesson from Waco and Ruby Ridge. They also have all the time in the world. No one is being held hostage, unless it is the hapless citizens of the local civilian community, so there is no emergency situation. As they did with the white supremacists holed up elsewhere, they simply isolated them and waited them out. Even if they have to wait for Bundy to get old and die, they will eventually collect what is due the government, plus interest and penalties.

    I hesitate to call those roving gangs of gunmen militias. As you know, I am descended from true militiamen who fought at King’s Mountain, Yorktown, Beattie’s Creek and Cowan’s Ford. Those guys could not find a stepladder tall enough to kiss the asses of those farmers and merchants who took on the most powerful standing Army in the world in the late 1770s and early 1880s. THOSE were militiamen. At any rate, they will not be at Bundy’s ranch forever. They will have to go home sometime.

    I may have mentioned this before. Many of these guys are not the brightest bulbs on the marquee. Several years ago, there was a search on for somebody out west. I don’t remember the details, but Army National Guard helicopters were participating in the search. A Blackhawk crew spotted somebody walking down a road and thinking they might get information to aid their search, decided to land on the road to talk to the guy. As the pilot made his approach to land, the pedestrian turned and opened fire on the helicopter with a long gun, either a rifle or shotgun. Training kicked in, and the Blackhawk pilot hosed him down with his chain gun. The Board of Inquiry ruled it justified, because the helicopter pilot was taking fire from close range.

    This is not likely to end with gunfire unless somebody on either side does something stupid. I expect it to go out with a whimper.

  55. I-Team: Police say Bundy ranch protesters not off the hook
    By George Knapp, Chief Investigative Reporter

    LAS VEGAS — Metro Police officers who were on the front lines of a recent showdown near the Bundy ranch in Bunkerville say they feared for their lives.

    At least some of the militia members who pointed weapons at police officers during the confrontation may have wanted a violent outcome and tried to incite one.

    In exclusive interviews with the 8 News NOW I-Team, officers who were on the scene shared their thoughts and fears, and they say it is not over.

    “These guys with rifles, keep them calm,” was Clark County Assistant Sheriff Joe Lombardo’s request to one of Bundy’s sons the day of the confrontation.

    Lombardo’s top priority was to prevent a spark that might set off a bloody firefight.

    “There was a possibility of somebody just having an accidental discharge causing a blood bath, because the individuals that were showing up, the militia quote unquote, were armed to the teeth,” Lombardo said.

    On one side, armed federal rangers and agents, on the other, a huge crowd of angry militia members and in the middle, 30 Metro officers, exposed and vulnerable, aware that if the shooting began, some of them would die.

    “You are standing there going, ‘I just hope it doesn’t hurt when it comes. That it’s quick,’ and it was real for us. It was real,” Sgt. Tom Jenkins said.

    “(You thought you might die?) Yeah.” Sgt. Jenkins said.

    Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie has been negotiating behind the scenes with rancher Cliven Bundy for a couple of years. On the morning of the big showdown, he and Joe Lombardo drove to Bunkerville to let Bundy know that a deal had been reached with Bureau of Land Management to suspend the roundup of Bundy’s cattle.

    Bundy, who has grown accustomed to media attention over the past few months, said he would only talk to Gillespie on stage in front of his crowd. Once there, he ordered the sheriff to go out and disarm every fed he could find.

    “And report back in an hour. Disarm everyone working at a federal park,” Bundy told the sheriff.

    “I mean, the hair was up on the back of my neck. There was the so-called militia surrounding the stage. There was a lot of firepower out there and it made me nervous. anything could happen,” Lombardo said.

    Gillspie and Lombardo say they offered to provide Bundy with legal counsel—free. He turned it down and later urged the crowd to go after his cattle.

    “Mr. Bundy, in my personal opinion, incited the crowd,” Lombardo said.

    Some of them didn’t need much to get riled. Their hostility toward government was on full display. A few equate the BLM with Nazis.

    “That bunch, the SS squad or something to do with Hitler, shouldn’t have guns there aimed at the people,” one man at the showdown said.

    They were equally hostile to journalists covering the story. Pistol-packing militia men have blocked 8 News NOW’s access to public roads. Some poured lighter fluid around our news vehicle while others got physical.

  56. Chuck:

    These guys might not be militias in the sense you describe even in the most remote of senses, but they tend to identify themselves that way. The concern I have is traction these guys might garner by poking sticks at them by others, especially the feds.

    I agree that if somehow both sides can make this issue quietly go away that would be best. In this case it really isn’t so much Cliven Bundy or the BLM chief, it is the lunatic fringe types that are the the unstable ones who flock around them.

    Dumb? most are I think are. But it is not a good idea to dismiss them and fail to understand what makes them tick.

    Speaking of which, the helicopter story you mentioned reminded me of one of those lunatic fringe types we had. He was convinced he had to take action against the government and began building pipe bombs and other explosives in a shed he owned. I’m sure he felt he was going to make a big show against the government, until his shed detonated and took him with it.

  57. Bundy’s ”Militia” Is Lawlessness of a Different Color
    May 3, 2014 By
    Terrance Heath

    Lawlessness of a Different Color

    Let’s be clear. Clive Bundy is basically a criminal. After losing in court for over 20 years, Bundy employed the threat of violence to continue illegally grazing his cattle without paying the grazing fee that other ranchers pay. A simple review of county records proves Bundy’s claims on the land are bogus. Whipped into a frenzy by Fox News, Bundy now has armed “militia” supporting him in flouting the law.

    If Bundy and his supporters were black or Latino, and wore hoodies instead of cowboy hands, they wouldn’t be called a “militia.” They would be called a gang of armed “thugs.” Instead of hailing them as heroic patriots, the talking heads at Fox News would be calling for them to be arrested, if not shot on sight.

    History bears this out. In May of 1967, Black Panthers invaded the California statehouse. Thirty well-armed young black men and women arrived on the west lawn of the state capitol, and climbed the capitol steps. Bobby Seal declared, “The time has come for black people to arm themselves against this terror before it is too late.”

    What drove the Black Panthers to the capitol was opposition to gun control.Then governor Ronald Reagan told reporters that afternoon that he “no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons,” and called guns “ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will.”

    But that was when the NRA supported gun control, and Republicans were still the “law and order” party.” What’s happening at Bundy Ranch may be lawlessness, but it’s lawlessness of a different color — and that makes all the difference.

  58. My how times change, I’m referring to your 8:43 post Elaine. When it was the Black Panthers against gun control and Ronald Reagan against carrying
    loaded guns, the NRA was for gun control? Things have been turned on their heads, because now ….why?

  59. WHY??? Look @ a Gallup poll. Currently 80% of people don’t trust govt. That’s more than Clive Bundy. Only 19% of people trust govt. Incidents like Ruby Ridge, Waco, and now this is the govt. bucking up, showing who’s boss. This time someone made the right call and cooler heads prevailed. When 80% of the people do not trust the govt. shit like this happens. And, if WE THE PEOPLE do not take back our govt., we may look like the Ukraine soon.

  60. Annie,

    The NRA once supported gun control
    It may seem hard to believe, but for decades the organization helped write federal laws restricting gun use
    Steven Rosenfeld, Alternet

    For nearly a century after, its founding in 1871, the National Rifle Association was among America’s foremost pro-gun control organizations. It was not until 1977 when the NRA that Americans know today emerged, after libertarians who equated owning a gun with the epitome of freedom and fomented widespread distrust against government—if not armed insurrection—emerged after staging a hostile leadership coup.

    In the years since, an NRA that once encouraged better markmanship and reasonable gun control laws gave way to an advocacy organization and political force that saw more guns as the answer to society’s worst violence, whether arming commercial airline pilots after 9/11 or teachers after the Newtown, while opposing new restrictions on gun usage.

    It is hard to believe that the NRA was committed to gun-control laws for most of the 20th century—helping to write most of the federal laws restricting gun use until the 1980s.

    “Historically, the leadership of the NRA was more open-minded about gun control than someone familiar with the modern NRA might imagine,” wrote Adam Winkler, a Second Amendment scholar at U.C.L.A. Law School, in his 2011 book, Gunfight: The Battle Over The Right To Bear Arms In America. “The Second Amendment was not nearly as central to the NRA’s identity for most of the organization’s history.”

    Once Upon A Time…

    The NRA was founded in 1871 by two Yankee Civil War veterans, including an ex-New York Times reporter, who felt that war dragged on because more urban northerners could not shoot as well as rural southerners. It’s motto and focus until 1977 was not fighting for constitutional rights to own and use guns, but “Firearms Safety Education, Marksmanship Training, Shhoting for Recreation,” which was displayed in its national headquarters.

    The NRA’s first president was a northern Army General, Ambrose Burnside. He was chosen to reflect this civilian-militia mission, as envisioned in the Second Amendment, which reads, “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” The understanding of the Amendment at the time concerned having a prepared citizenry to assist in domestic military matters, such as repelling raids on federal arsenals like 1786’s Shays Rebellion in Massachusetts or the British in the War of 1812. Its focus was not asserting individual gun rights as today, but a ready citizenry prepared by target shooting. The NRA accepted $25,000 from New York State to buy a firing range ($500,000 today). For decades, the U.S. military gave surplus guns to the NRA and sponsored shooting contests.

    In the 1920s and 1930s, the NRA’s leaders helped write and lobby for the first federal gun control laws—the very kinds of laws that the modern NRA labels as the height of tryanny. The 17th Amendment outlawing alchohol became law in 1920 and was soon followed by the emergence of big city gangsters who outgunned the police by killing rivals with sawed-off shotguns and machine guns—today called automatic weapons.

    In the early 1920s, the National Revolver Association—the NRA’s handgun training counterpart—proposed model legislation for states that included requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, adding five years to a prison sentence if a gun was used in a crime, and banning non-citizens from buying a handgun. They also proposed that gun dealers turn over sales records to police and created a one-day waiting period between buying a gun and getting it—two provisions that the NRA opposes today.

    Nine states adopted these laws: West Virginia, New Jersey, Michigan, Indiana, Oregon, California, New Hampshire, North Dakota and Connecticut. Meanwhile, the American Bar Association had been working to create uniform state laws, and built upon the proposal but made the waiting period two days. Nine more states adopted it: Alabama, Arkansas, Maryland, Montana, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin.

    State gun control laws were not controversial—they were the norm. Within a generation of the country’s founding, many states passed laws banning any citizen from carrying a concealed gun. The cowboy towns that Hollywood lionized as the ‘Wild West’ actually required all guns be turned in to sheriffs while people were within local city limits. In 1911, New York state required handgun owners to get a permit, following an attempted assassination on New York City’s mayor. (Between 1865 and 1901, three presidents had been killed by handguns: Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley.) But these laws were not seen as effective against the Depression’s most violent gangsters.

  61. Some people may not trust the government. That doesn’t mean they trust and approve of self-appointed militia men wielding guns hanging around their communities.

  62. What happened was that Ronald Reagan, with his government is the enemy philosophy, turned on a lightbulb in an anti society segment of America. Then the Religious Right glommed onto the anti government thing and joined the right wing because they didn’t like Roe v. Wade, they disliked the feminist movement, then they didn’t like that religion in public schools was being rolled back, then they didn’t like that gays demanded equality, then they went nuts.

  63. Not trusting the government does not translate into support of scary armed wigged out militia men. What if these militia men were Black Panthers? Freakout time…. Remember when some Black Panthers went to the area where the Zimmerman trial was? All the Zimmerman supporters and gun nuts were having fits.

  64. Elaine, When 80% of people do not trust the govt. the adjective that should be use is “most,” not “some.” Words matter. When I interview people part of my assessment is not just body language but the key words they use, are they trying to minimize, maximize? Are they using the appropriate words.

  65. Elaine, so true. I bet someone tries to imply that some here want blind allegiance, that we don’t question overreaches, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. It isn’t a sign of patriotism to call for insurrection. If our country has problems, and it does, we have the tools in the Consitution to rectify them. What of a Article 5 Constitutional Convention? It’s a better alternative than a civil war, don’t you think? If money influences our elected politicians to the point we have an oligarchy, make an Amendement limiting the amount of money that can be donated by mega rich donors. Make an Amendment to the Consitution that stops spying on its own citizens, etc.

  66. When 80% of people don’t trust the govt. fringe people like this grow. If 30% didn’t trust the govt., these groups would be miniscule. Well, they’re growing. It’s pretty basic math. The larger the mistrust, the larger the fringe.

  67. nick, Once a black man vacates the office the militias will shrink. Many are driven by racism. They don’t like any democrat too much but since many are also birthers having what they think is a Kenyan in office is intolerable too them.

  68. Come on folks, you’re not arguing w/ a ham n’ egger. In the 60’s, when left wing groups were blowing up buildings and killing people, screaming for insurrection, they were your heroes.

  69. I think this is a point in the thread when I remind everyone I consider Bundy a buffoon. Proceed.

  70. I’m explaining why these groups are forming in bigger numbers, I am not, and never have, defended them. This does get tedious.

  71. We ALL know why these groups have formed and expanded. No need for a tutorial for something we already know.

  72. Nick Spinelli @

    “Come on folks, you’re not arguing w/ a ham n’ egger. In the 60′s, when left wing groups were blowing up buildings and killing people, screaming for insurrection, they were your heroes.”

    This is where it gets personal and runs off the rails, IMO.

  73. Nick Spinelli @10:27

    Who is “we” and what do you “know.” I use words like we and know judiciously.

    Doing it again.

  74. The “we” would be those us who think insurrection against our government is a dead wrong we to deal with this contry’s problems. I think that was pretty obvious.

  75. Nick Spinelli

    Come on folks, you’re not arguing w/ a ham n’ egger. In the 60′s, when left wing groups were blowing up buildings and killing people, screaming for insurrection, they were your heroes.


    No, they weren’t. I supported the anti-war people. I didn’t approve of innocent people being killed by radicals or governments back in the day–and I don’t approve of it today.

  76. nick, I doubt any us here were Weathermen or supporters of the Symbionese Liberation Army. I know I certainly did not support them.

  77. Nick,

    I thought those situations could have/should have been handled better by the government. I thought that the killing of four innocent students at Kent State by the National Guard was another tragedy.

  78. the other anon – I know that you have set yourself up as the civility fairy, but why don’t you add to the discussion rather than police the site? IMO this is personal. ;)

  79. Elaine – did you think there was criminal culpability on the part of the government in either Waco or Ruby Ridge?

  80. Bobby Seal considers them to be xenophobic and the SPLC considers them to be a hate group so since they know more about them than I do I will go with their opinions.

  81. SWM, I have a long history of taking people @ their word. However, the Sterling Hall bombers @ UW are cult heroes in Madison. The children of the victims, speaking @ the anniversary a few years ago, helped mitigate the bombers “heroism” a bit. I think Ruby Ridge and Waco makes some folks here uncomfortable, although when discussed recently one or two commenters thought the govt. did everything right. Those 2 incidents have hardened the right wing militias, and while I DO NOT SUPPORT THEM, I do empathize w/ their thoughts and feeling vis a vis the massacres @ Ruby Ridge and Waco.

  82. When I worked @ The Drake in Chicago the tiny Judge Hoffmann, who presided over Seale’s trial, would come into the barber shop every day for a shave.

  83. SWM – The SPLC is a small group of wingnuts who somehow got everyone’s attention about their lists. Since their only importance is these lists, they make their name more important by constantly expanding the list. Oddly, left-leaning terror groups never appear on the list.

    Although the FBI still uses their list they are not doing so officially, since some maniac used the list to become a serial murderer.

  84. SWM, To each their own, but I don’t rely much on the opinions of radicals in shaping my thoughts.

  85. Nick,

    It doesn’t make me uncomfortable. The government does a lot of things of which I disapprove. That doesn’t make me want to join a radical group or a militia. I was against a preemptive war with Iraq. I’m against drone strikes. I think too many innocent people get killed. I’m against torture of suspected terrorists. I’m upset that the DOJ didn’t go after Wall Street banksters.

  86. There may a lone loon in Madison who considers the Sterling Hall bombers “heroes”. It’s a gross misrepresentation of Madison, WI to say that they are considered “heroes” by the residents of Madison.

  87. rafflaw – at the end of WWII, we should have stood on our hind legs and stopped all colonialism, or at least where they had already been kicked out. Truman, who I generally like, did us no favors there. He allowed the French to go back into Vietnam. There are a couple of fine military novels translated from the French about their experience in post-WWII Vietnam. I think that one of them is title “The New Centurions.” Probably out of print now but a good read.

  88. Elaine – were you against WWII? Do you know how many innocent people were killed by the American alone?

  89. LBJ had business interest to follow in Vietnam, it made his family extremely wealthy. Lady Bird owed interest in Halliburton which owned Brown and Root at the time.

  90. One of the Sterling Hall killers, Karl Armstrong, is still a cult hero here. He opened a sandwich shop on State St. in Madison called Radical Rye. The name was offensive enough to me for me to never frequent it. But, it was the hot spot for several years for all the Progressives to gather and discuss the good old days. The Armstrong’s were supervised by my wife’s office and they saw, up close, just how “heroic” many saw those killers. This is common knowledge and unworthy of debate.

  91. Ask the kids of the victim how the killers were treated compared to how they were forgotten.

  92. Nick,

    You can object all you want. I already responded to you with regard to my thoughts on Ruby Ridge and Waco. Check out my response at 11:20 am.
    BTW, no one is required to respond to anyone else on this blog. People are free to respond–or to not respond as they so choose.

  93. And armed society is a polite society. My next door neighbor is an arms dealer and I am glad of it. :D

  94. Madison does NOT consider the Sterling Hall bombers heroes, again one may assert anything, anyone who spends any time in Madison will quickly see this is not true for the majority of the residents of Madison. Some members of my family live in Madison, received their degrees in Madison, work in government In Madison and are VERY active in Madison society. Not ONE of my Madison friends or family, who are liberals, considers the Sterling Hall bomber heroes.

  95. Oh, I read your comment @ 11:20 Elaine. I read EVERYTHING. I was hoping I could get you off of the “could have been handled better.” It is quite tepid when 17 children are murdered by the govt. But, if that’s how you feel, c’est la vie.

  96. Max – 1 – you really don’t understand grazing land and grazing rights do you? The majority of land in the Western states is owned by the federal government. You can easily check on line to see how much federal land is owned in the Original 13 or any state prior to 1865. It takes roughly 100 acres of land to graze 1 cow for 1 year in the West (not so in the East or West Coast). Since private land is very limited, ranchers who want to raise even a nominal number of cattle are required to get grazing rights on someone’s land.

  97. Nick,

    I also wrote “should have been handled better”–and added that the killing of innocent students at Kent State was another tragedy. I guess you missed that part–or didn’t connect it to the previous sentence. It’s important to read things in context in order to understand what the writer is saying. I’m not going to get into a lengthy discussion over word usage. You didn’t like my response. So be it.

  98. Paul Schulte @ 11:53

    And armed society is a polite society. My next door neighbor is an arms dealer and I am glad of it. …and an “emoticon”

    An Armed Society, Not So Polite As Terrified?

    “… “Stand your ground” laws, or at least the public conception of what they do, are changing the way the rest of us think about self- protection. This is, of course, exactly the world the NRA dreams of constructing: Everyone armed and paranoid that everyone else is armed. But the old canard that an armed society is a polite society is pretty much bunk. Ours is not a polite society; we are rude and hotheaded and terrified. Now we have guns to help us sort it all out.”

  99. Annie, You have gone from only a “lone loon” considering the Armstrong’s heroes to a “majority of the residents of Madison” not considering them heroes.” All in the span of a few minutes! Well, I agree “a majority” do not consider them heroes, but a disturbing number of people do. However you then end w/ “Not one of my friends or family, who are liberals, consider the Sterling Hall bombers heroes.” I thought of all my family and friends and tried to think if there WAS ANY topic of which I knew ALL of their opinions. of course that’s ludicrous, I couldn’t know all of their opinions on any subject. Maybe it’s the polling numbers that make it ludicrous for me to ever have that metaphysical certitude. I have a big family and many friends. And, they are a DIVERSE group.

  100. The ‘Domestic Terrorists’ are the Progressives and the government.

    This country will have either a Revolution or a Civil War. The Progressives have no respect for states rights or Republics. They want Progressive dictatorships. I personally cannot stand them any more. They are wrecking this country.

  101. the other anon – syg and an armed society are two separate issues. The article is well-written hyperbole but does not actually describe stand your ground or the fact that we have a RIGHT to be armed.

    I love emoticons, don’t you? Several other people on here love them, too.

  102. Nick – Annie was just at a family gathering so she was able to do a survey on all relevant subjects.

  103. Elaine, I just found it “a tell” as they say in poker that you felt compelled to offset in your mind a Dem president killing many citizens w/ a Rep killing 4 @ Kent State. As I’ve said, I learned what people think as much by what they don’t say as what they do. You have not even said Waco or Ruby Ridge in this exchange.

  104. Backtracking on your comment is a good thing Spinelli. I stand by my “lone loon” description. I plan on being in Madison tomorrow, I’ll discuss your allegations with my relatives and see what they say.

  105. Nick,

    You can read anything you want into what I wrote. I have no control over your thought processes. You’re in the habit of assuming you know how other people think and of misinterpreting their words. You can try to bait me all you want. I’m done with this conversation.

  106. I read all types of articles, far left to right and whatever moderate ones I can find. The Daily Beast is a left/far left site. It is not as popular as red meat like HuffPo or Koz, but it’s out there. They have an interesting headline piece today, It’s Not Racist to Hate Government.

  107. Paul, perhaps you didn’t get the memo, but Professor Turley wants us to abstain from personal attacks. Please note, we are all trying here.

  108. I am not baiting, Elaine. That’s a flop. I am using the tools of my trade in ANALYZING what you say. As, I’ve said, this is a poor venue since 80% of all communication is nonverbal. I TRULY want to know how most people here think. There are some I could give a rat’s ass what or how they think. I don’t even engage them. But, it’s not like you are a blank slate to me. I’ve been reading and exchanging w/ you for a couple years. I have reads on most everyone here. The constant name changes make it difficult on some.

  109. Annie – you were the one who publicly stated she was going to a family event yesterday. I was giving you support for your survey of your family members. There is no attack, personal or otherwise. I was defending your honor.

  110. I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Thomas Jefferson

  111. Annie – you used an emoticon. I think you are going to soon be hearing from the other anon.

  112. From “Get rid of the Progs” somewhere up-thread:

    The ‘Domestic Terrorists’ are the Progressives and the government

    This country will have either a Revolution or a Civil War. The Progressives have no respect for states rights or Republics. They want Progressive dictatorships. I personally cannot stand them any more. They are wrecking this country.

    So says “Get rid of the Progs”.

    Folks would be well-advised to pay attention to what “Get rid of the Progs” just wrote. (We can be pretty sure who it is.)

    Let me tell ya: These folks are loaded for bear and they’re already running their “war games” on the streets of the U.S., in the form of old-fashioned witch hunts. The rest of us need to pay attention and nip it in the bud.

  113. Chuck – could you give us a link to the murder by Blackhawk incident? Sounds fascinating.

  114. Elaine – I was in fear for my life is the clarion call of all police officers. I am pretty sure they teach it first day at the academy. And what are 30 LV cops doing out there. It is not a LV problem.

  115. Elaine – I have to go with Nick on your “could have been handled better.” That is both vague and really non-committal. WHO could have handled it better and HOW?

  116. Annie – thanks for the emoticons. I will print them out later. :D One of the five I already know.

  117. Elaine- I don’t do homework and I don’t hand it out, however, you have again dodged the question. Of course, you don’t have to answer the question, but since you made the assertion, you could clarify it for us.

    BTW, Nick and I do disagree on things. We are on opposite sides on rearming Japan.

  118. Never mind. The thread was a good education discussion, but it’s now about prostates.

  119. If it were a flow, I’m good w/ that. But the hijacker is like a housefly on crystal meth.

  120. The Bundy Ranch Militia Is Wearing Out Its Welcome


    “Also, the militia have set up checkpoints on the roads, where residents have to prove they live there before being allowed to drive on. That’s just inconvenient. Bunkerville wants them out.”

    Meanwhile, some of the Bundys and their supporters have complaints of their own. On Friday, Bundy’s sister, sons and several supporters filed criminal reports against the BLM agents who tried to take Bundy’s cattle, accusing them of impersonating police officers, assault and threatening with deadly weapons. Bundy’s son Ammon said the BLM agents could go and file their own complaints against the people who threatened them.

    The police department didn’t appear to be taking the Bundy complaints very seriously, telling the Las Vegas Review-Journal in a statement: “It is not our practice to take crime reports on law enforcement agencies conducting a law enforcement function.”

    The BLM’s response was one sentence long: “We welcome Mr. Bundy’s new interest in the American legal system.”

  121. Max-1 – I understand paying, but I also understand what his underlying claim is. If the government illegal is holding the land, then they are illegally collecting a fee. This sort of issue has been going on with the copyright of Sherlock Holmes stories. Some fall under the new copyright laws, but the early ones don’t. The estate has been charging royalties for both.
    I don’t know if Bundy can win on it, but he is not alone in his thinking.

  122. I don’t remember what year the Blackhawk incident happened, or which southwestern state. I had not had my internet very long at that time, so must have been very early on in internet time. I think it was a news item from an area newspaper. I would hardly call it murder. If anyone opens fire at me at close range with a long gun, they are dead and just don’t know it yet.

  123. Chuck – we learned this week that state executions in several states are listed on the death certificate as murder.

    I think you are allowed to use reasonable force, not a Gatling Gun against a rifle. It seems like overkill.

  124. Paul.

    When someone attempts to kill another person, or commits an assault against the person likely to result in death to that person or another, deadly force is permitted. Deadly force, per law, is not measured as a person generally can use any means available to them to protect themselves from death. There is a factor in that the force used might have been hazardous to others, such as backdrops in shootings.

    I believe the helicopter pilot used the means available to him which was the chain gun as Chuck describes.

    Plus, one has to look at the shooter taking on a military helicopter. It’s a bit hard to argue he couldn’t have known what whas coming in shooting at it. :)

    Another example, pulling a heavy weapon on the presidential motorcade, one cannot expect a secret service agent to pop out of the roof of a large SUV with a minigun rolling.

  125. Love the way the media is calling these american citizens militia and domestic terrorists and avoidng the real issue of the BLM seizing private property.

  126. Executions are NOT listed as murder. They are officially noted on the death certificate as “homicide.” Not the same thing as murder. Homicide is death by human hand, and is far more encompassing than murder, which is homicide with criminal intent. Killing in self-defense is also logged as homicide, but not murder or manslaughter.

    From two Latin root words. Homi (combining form of homō, i.e, man) and cīdium (to cause death).

  127. Darren, :mrgreen:

    In case anyone is wondering what you were referring to, they can take a look at what those SUVs with blacked out windows in the Presidential motorcade are carrying.

  128. Golden,
    Better check your facts. It was Cliven Bundy who was using land owned by the government without paying for it.

  129. For educated people I have heard more BS from this uninformed opinionated group than in all of my lifetime. Half of you have no clue what WWII was like and unless you were there should reserve your remarks until you have ferreted out the true happenings of that horrible war. The loss of life was horrendous and the torture our boys suffered was excruciating as well as the massive gassing and destruction of the Jewish by the Nazis. As I said, he who thinks he is wise is the foolish one. If we didn’t learn anything from that war, it is that you can never be sure that the ruler of the other country means what he says and that like Russia, will not attempt a land grab on his neighbor.

    Also, This country should be able to defend itself against a government that is so full of people from other lands that our system means nothing to them and the Govt is run at present by a liberal muslim who has no respect for this country. Proof is in his trying to destroy our constitution, take our guns from us, spend millions while telling us to give him more to spend, destroyed our health system, managed a complete coverup by lying about Benghazi, succeeded in splitting this country with his racist innuendos, refuses to create a budget and stay within it: He has driven our debt up from 5.6 trillion in 2000 to 17+ trillion in 2013, refuses to enforce the laws, writes his own laws, enforces (as if he has line item veto to laws already on the books) and has refused to control the borders: He prints money as if it is his printing press to use at will and has used his Pen and Paper in times when he legally had no right to do so. Our arrogant narcissistic imitation of a human leader who conned himself into the highest position in the land, has done one thing well, Lie, Lie, Lie!!!! Hired leftist activist and to sum it up, has done everything possible to destroy a wonderful country. Every facet of this government is all about lying to the people and it is time the Congress got to the bottom of all the misdeeds of this straw boss and his drones and their misdeeds.

    You put down a simple rancher ( a buffoon you call him) who probably is naive about the laws but has cared for and lived on the same ranch for decades. His neighbors had to sell out as the they were forced out by the BLM. Now he is faced down by a militia. This is the US not Russia or any country that has no rights. (Although the Straw Pres. is trying to take away our freedom at every turn. Better still, go out to Colorado and Utah and check out all the land grabs that is happening there. I could go on and on but you are all liberals or educated wannabees that would rather hide behind the written word than stand for the little man and what is morally right A man who has worked by the sweat of his brow, something few of your would ever know what that meant. A man who worked and I mean WORKED all his life to make a living and take care of what he owned. Now the Govt and Harry Reid are trying to strip that from him. I would be pissed too. Yes, he is of the old school and in a feeble attempt to make people understand the difference in when he was young and today and he made the fatal mistake of referring to slaves. Well, in effect they are not slaves to land owners today but to the government who keeps them. In fact, we are all dependents of this government that has been pushing to have more sign up for welfare, also by this Pres to get everyone on the govt. payroll, either by healthcare, or joining the unions who control the people and contribute more monies to his cause.

    He is destroying our freedoms and the liberals and minorities (immigrants, poor people from various cultures) are buying into all his BS. As one lady said when asked where she got the stimulus money, “It is Obama money” she replied. His highly educated followers who along with the do goobers who wanted to show they were trying to help put the first Black Pres in office. You call Bundy ignorant, Open your eyes as to the mentality of the people who like drones hang on to every lie he feeds them. See who really is racist and and see the real man and his vision for this country. One world order which is coming about as he was placed there to bring it about. In July HB2847 will drastically change the monetary system in this country and following that numerous land grabs are to take place as he is going to give this country several national parks which will require more land grabs. WHAT A WONDERFUL SYSTEM YOU ARE BACKING.

  130. Oh yes, I was in Ohio when Kent State happened, those killings did not need to happen, The trouble began when people who were not students started
    the ruckus. Sad times. Over zealous young National Guardsmen fired upon students. Yes, I would not have liked having bricks and sacks of shi_ slung at me but they should have been better trained.

    Re: the Black Panthers, once again, the racist was those with the black bands on their arms, No one was safe driving in the city in certain areas, especially if one was of a diff. color. Ever had a brick thrown at your car, or people trying to break into your car when you were stopped at a light. Until you have been there it is best to keep mum about what you don’t really know about. What you read already has a slant on it.

    Banning guns has had no real effect in Chicago and there are more people killed there than in any other city. When Chicago can show me that banning guns works, then I may believe it, in the meantime, not living in a city and being faced in my own yard by coyotes, poisonous snakes, cute little honey bears and other wild animals, I would prefer to be armed. I really feel safer here than in any city I have ever lived in.

    Believe me, I do not fear my neighbors whom you so educated people think are ignorant or retards. REALLY? You would be surprised how many of us are college educated, not so ignorant as your would believe. For those who think we are such, why don’t you return to your country of origin and come back with a diff attitude. Not many countries offers you what this country does. Ranchers tend to their own business and protect that which is theirs as the law is not just around the corner and a person’s safety is 9 out of 10 dependent on themselves. For years they have protected that which is theirs. When as now, the Govt. does not respect the laws and tries to swindle or land grab or lie about how the state of the union is, the people then fear their own Govt which is out of touch with the common man. I am happy having neighbors all around me who own guns, We have far less percentage of killings out here where everyone owns at least one gun than in the city with all the gangs, thugs, people who come here from other lands who have no regard for our laws and continue living as if they still live in a lawless country. THE CITIES ARE GUN FREE ZONES ONLY FOR THOSE WHO ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO GIVE THEM UP. THUGS AND CRIMINALS DON’T REGISTER THEIR GUNS, THEY STEAL THEM OR BUY THEM ILLEGALLY AND ONLY GIVE THEM UP WHEN THEY ARE SHOT OR CAUGHT BY THE LAW.

    We keep ourselves safe and for those of us who need help it is the neighbors that help, not the govt. You take our guns, you take our protection and few are as militant as the arrogant, blatant loudmouthed, militant paid protesters of this government. However, when someone is being taken advantage of, those of the same feather, ranchers, farmers, truckers, and others who necessarily have to work to live help each other. It is sad when a person keeps educating himself on the written word just to have the extra letters behind their name, but fails to use his head to think for himself or look to his heart to balance it with. For God’s sake try to understand your fellow man and not be his judge just because he is different from you and does not have a silver tongue.

  131. Darren – I am not sure if the armed helicopter vs. man is an urban legend. However, lets say that it isn’t for the sake of this discussion. There is something about not using the military against civilians, except in clearly defined circumstances. I think this became an issue at Waco, when they were trying to figure out where the tanks came from.
    Now, I realize that we have police thinking that they can kill civilians with impunity, we see an article a week on that lately. But we have serial killing on Army bases because the soldiers are required to lock up their weapons. No one, except the shooter was armed. So how does a military helicopter, armed, get into a civilian area where it can be shot and then fire back? What is it doing in harm’s way, so to speak.
    We do not arm our police with Gatling guns, yet. I know our sheriff likes buying surplus military equipment, like the tents for Tent City, and he now has a surplus tank that is used as a battering ram. However, the cannon is disabled as a weapon.

  132. Darren – my response to my response to you about being eaten by the spam monster was eaten by the spam monster.

  133. Golden Country – the BLM v state land has been an issue since I moved to the Southwest. But if you live in the East, you don’t understand where Bundy is coming from. I am not sure if he will win in the courts, I would say odds are against him, but I don’t think it has gotten to the Supreme Ct level yet.

  134. been there – there is an elitist crowd on here that champions the little guy in the abstract, but rarely as individuals. Their solution for almost all problems is more government. That is why liberals (as a group) give less money to charity than conservatives (as a group). They talk the talk, but they do not walk the walk.

  135. Darren – I am not so sure that the helicopter thing is not an urban legend. However, Chuck could be right and it is fact. We do know that cops like to take the overkill approach to handling suspects, as seen by the many threads we have had on the subject.

  136. Got you Schulte, I have noticed that I agree with you more than all the rest, and Darren Smith comes up with a balanced approach to things sometimes. He seems a bit level headed too, Thank God this country needs some who can see both sides. Hang in there, this is about as liberal as you can get and trying to make these educated idiots see more than their liberal side is darn near impossible. No wonder Washington is as polarized as it is now and this is why this country is in the mess it is in. It is a shame they seem so concerned without first taking a good look at things from more than one perspective. We are all human but the west is a hell of a lot different than that crowd on the east coast, so is the South and until you have been there witnessed it and lived it, you cannot be one’s judge. A good critic places himself in the same situation before he makes his judgement, Stay with it, America needs a few more like you who at least give these tunnel visioned, self righteous judges of human nature a different point of view. Enjoyed the feedback.

  137. Stanley: Why is it that one man needs all that fire power behind him and he wants to confiscate ours. Better still, he is well protected but his men in Benghazi couldn’t get protection when requested and was under fire. He needs his protection and we don’t?. Just think of all the millions he wastes on his many trips and vacations. He could be a little more conservative (oops did I say a bad word) about his spending habits and partying. How many vacations do you take a year or send your family on. This country would not be so upset if the arrogant faux Pres practiced what he preaches.. Gotta hand it to him, now he can get his weed legally.

  138. Get your coffee girl, I have already had mine. I read your 12:13 comment over again and find only that a certain democratic congressman that may have had his shorts in a wad because of Bundy’s less than silver tongue speech about the ……… know………..(you seem like a somewhat smart person so you get my reference I do hope. Anyway, I am sure he has enough followers to make all those complaints and stir up some concern within the community with his propaganda. Plus, he has all the Dem drones who are great at being parrots to do the job for him. Read something, and believe half of it and you will have the story. Therefore, I take all those complaints that have Rep. Horsford’s approval all over them as a political thing and indeed a defensive maneuver to get everyone to turn against their neighbor Thus making the land grab possibly a little less of a hassle for them.

    I wonder how all those people who are complaining would react if the government came to them and announced they were taking their property. Some may be smart mouthed but believe me I have more confidence in my neighbors than I have in King Harry’s illegal militia that came AKA’s in hand and pushed, shoved, and used stun guns on the ranchers, stole his cattle and killed many of the herd. There is a better way to settle this problem and they brought the guns first. Girl get the true facts, not the democratic slanted ones. This is a land grab and if King Harry is involved you can bet it goes all the way to the top.

    Oops, regarding the “500 server error tech guys”, thanks for sharing that. I majored in Philosophy, Religion and Psychology (not in English) but I married a historian. I am sure they had a ball with the errors in my writing as I am not one who is considered a writer. HOWEVER, by Gad I believe I get my point across. Thank them for cleaning it up for me. Nice chatting with you.

  139. Things are gettin’ strange in the neighborhood, who you gonna call? Not the tech guys this time. Um, yes, nice chat.

  140. “I wonder how all those people who are complaining would react if the government came to them and announced they were taking their property.

    It’s not Bundy’s property. It’s public land.

  141. Sorry Elaine, it was allowed by the govt. for his family to use it for generations suddenly BLM was supposed to be a land management group and they were going to make improvements on it for a fee, but the only improvements were done by Bundy. Why should Bundy pay a company that does not honor the agreement. This should have been a court case. Not a land grab with the fire power like the Russian take over. Girl this is America not Europe where they have always been at war. Sorry, you are at best mistaken. This should have been a court case.

  142. A license for use can be revoked at anytime. He hasn’t honored his commitment. Any improvements were for bundys benefit. He should be required to restore it to its original condition or each day it remains is a trespass.

  143. been there/done that,

    Lots of ranchers use public lands to graze their cattle. The ranchers pay fees for the use of those public lands. Bundy’s parents bought their ranch in Bunkerville in1948.That would make Bundy a second generation cattle rancher on that land.


    I-Team: Bundy’s ‘ancestral rights’ come under scrutiny
    Posted: Apr 21, 2014/Updated: Apr 23, 2014
    By Nathan Baca, Investigative Reporter

    Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy’s parents bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

    Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn’t start grazing on that land until 1954.

    The Bureau of Land Management was created 1946, the same year Cliven was born.

  144. been there/done that,

    Welfare Queens in Cowboy Hats
    Apr 18, 2014
    By James Greiff

    The tale of Cliven Bundy, a Nevada cattle rancher, had all the elements of a certain type of political theater, making it inevitable that he would become a hero in the conservative blogosphere and a fixture on Fox News.

    The story line, as told in those forums, went something like this: Heavy-handed federal bureaucrats, having seized Bundy’s cattle, were forced to back down after being confronted by cowboys on horseback toting nothing more than their side arms and an unshakable faith in the U.S. Constitution. (A little-told detail: A sniper or two were concurrently taking aim at the federal agents.)

    Bundy was painted as a man being “squeezed” by the federal government, and deserving of our sympathy. Or, more profoundly, he was cast in the same mold as Mohandas Gandhi and George Washington, men who disobeyed unjust laws to bring about revolutionary change. The word “tyranny” was used so often it became background noise in the news coverage.

    Let’s dispense with niceties: Bundy is a freeloading scofflaw, a welfare queen in a Stetson who claimed what wasn’t his. He took subsidies from U.S. taxpayers and refused to pay the $1.2 million he owed for using federal — make that our — land.

    Bundy has neither history nor law on his side in his long-running dispute with the U.S. government. He asserts that his grazing rights were established in 1880 when his ancestors settled the land where his ranch sits. By some reasoning understood only by him and his range-war sympathizers, the federal government has no constitutional right to interfere with his grazing cattle.There is a gaping flaw with this argument. As several writers have noted, the Nevada constitution, adopted in 1864 as a condition of statehood, trumps Bundy’s right to graze on public land. It says:

    “That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States.”

    Bundy no doubt is pining for the days, which he never actually experienced, when cattlemen could let their herds roam at will on public lands. That changed in 1934 when federal control of grazing was formalized under a law designed to prevent overuse and degradation of the range. The legislation was backed by ranchers (it was drafted by a rancher turned congressman), in part because it made it that much harder for newcomers to get into the business.

    The law, the Taylor Grazing Act, gave existing ranchers permits allowing them to run their herds on federal land. In turn, ranchers paid user fees, which were lower than what most private landowners would have charged. Because those fees capture only a bit of the costs of the grazing program, it amounts to a taxpayer subsidy to ranchers of as much as $1 billion a year. Subsequent court rulings clearly established that the law didn’t grant ownership rights to ranchers who used federal land.

  145. Paul.

    I think there wasn’t clarity in the helicopter issue. Chuck wrote the helicopter was involved in a search and went to land next to a person the pilot thought might be of help in the search. When the pilot attempted to land in order to talk with this man, the man unexpectedly opened up on him with a long gun. The pilot was close enough this represented a risk to his life.

    In that situation, the pilot did not have access to a standard issue handgun even available to him, which I doubt it was, he wouldn’t have been able to use it. The pedestrian could have shot the pilot through the windshield.

    In any ordinary civilian law enforcement situation I would agree with you that bringing a mini-gun to the scene is over the top but in this situation with the helicopter pilot he had to use what was available to him to protect himself.

    On an anecdotal side I had another deputy I worked with who about thirty years ago who needed to arrest someone in a hardware store one winter (I forget what the incident was as it was a long time ago). He found the guy and went to take him into custody when the guy pulled a knife on him. The deputy grabbed what was immediately available to him, a flexible flyer runner sled, and bashed the guy with it until he got the knife away from him. In this case the deputy used something immediately available to him to save his life.

  146. Feynman:

    I suspect the 500 Internal Error with the scroll bar might have been caused by the following, and this is just an educated guess:

    When your web browser requested to bring up this webpage, the wordpress server allocated a block of pixles/lines to embed Chuck’s YouTube video in its http response to your browser’s request. When it was compiling the response it then went to call up the YouTube but this hanged a few moments. Your browser then displayed the resulting webpage. When the wordpress server went to fetch the video either YouTube’s server, or wordpress’ server suffered an internal error in retrieving or rendering the video and failed and returned the 500 error response to your browser. Since the embedded video was to be encapsulated into a defined space, such as in a division or type of frame (as was allocated by the original http response) it likely was that this html-ized 500 response was too large to be displayed in that box so some text was hidden below or to the side of the box. The web browser’s programming is to call a scroll bar whenver text is positioned outside the display window. So the scroll bar object was called to allow you, the reader, to be able to access the unseen part of the 500 response message and that was why you saw it.

    At least, that I what I suspect might have happened.

  147. Context Matters: The Cliven Bundy Standoff — Part 3
    JJ MccNab

    On Friday, three of Cliven Bundy’s sons, two of his sisters, and seventeen supporters filed Criminal Reports with the Clark County Sheriff’s Office in Las Vegas, Nevada. Their list of complaints was extensive:

    On Friday, three of Cliven Bundy’s sons, two of his sisters, and seventeen supporters filed Criminal Reports with the Clark County Sheriff’s Office in Las Vegas, Nevada. Their list of complaints was extensive:

    “Men blocking access to public land
    Men blocking public roads
    Men harassing people for taking photos
    Men impersonating Police officers
    Men claiming to be a police officer and refusing to show valid identification
    Men threatening to use Tasers
    Men threatening to fire upon unarmed civilians
    Men using attack dogs
    Men pointing weapons

    We believe that the BLM men who pointed guns at over 1,000 people on April 12th near the I-15 freeway south of Mesquite committed a criminal act and that the Clark County Sheriffs [sic] office should be required to investigate.” (Source: Bundy Website, May 1, 2014)

    Despite the obvious irony of these complaints being levied by a group that dresses in paramilitary uniforms, sets up illegal checkpoints on public roads, aims their many weapons at both law enforcement and civilian contractors, and threatens to bomb and kill people at local businesses, there’s something even more sinister behind these Criminal Reports.

    There is an implied “or else” in these demands to the local Sheriff to do their bidding.

    The County Sheriff

    For years, Cliven Bundy has been demanding that Clark County Sheriff Gillespie protect his cattle from the Bureau of Land Management, the Department of the Interior agency tasked with managing federal land. Like most Sovereigns, Bundy believes that the County Sheriff is the most powerful law enforcement officer in the entire country, with unlimited authority that trumps that of any federal agent, elected official, local police officer, or perceived enemy.

    Bundy routinely invokes the U.S. Constitution when making these claims. The phrases “We the People” from the Preamble, and “life, liberty, and property” from the 14th Amendment are usually present.

    “Where our problem is is right here at home. I wonder where our Clark County Sheriff Douglas Gillespie’s been … He is the man that has constitutional jurisdiction and authority, he has policing power here in Clark County, Nevada, and he has arresting power, so we elected him and we pay him, what do we pay him to do? Don’t we pay him to protect our life, liberty and property?” (Source: Moapa Valley Town Hall Meeting, April 9, 2014)

    The 14th Amendment, which guaranteed state and federal citizenship for freed slaves after the Civil War, holds a special place in Sovereign mythology. They claim that the Amendment covertly introduced a new type of citizen – the U.S. citizen – when only state citizenship existed prior to the Amendment. The federal government then tricked Americans into this structure by having them enter into contracts such as licenses, permits, birth certificates, and so on. Traces of these theories can be found sprinkled throughout Bundy’s statements.

  148. Darren – you do not send a helicopter with a loaded Gatling gun on a search mission. And my understanding is that most Air Force pilots are strapped as part of their flying gear.

  149. As I have said several times, the MSM and this blog, has been fixated on a tempest in a teapot. One of the many problems of obsessing on something, is the important topics are ignored. Jonathan did post about the kidnapping of 260 girls in Nigeria. It’s a good post and interesting thread, worthy of more attention.

  150. Is this an invitation to cease commenting on this site Nick? I didn’t realize that Jonathan left you in charge of what folks may comment on or not.

    Just because you don’t like the way the thread is playing out is not a justification to quit commenting.

    I think Clive is in a while bunch of trouble. He’s a thief that the right wing embraced until they found out the facts.

  151. Mr Keebler,

    I guess some people find posts about squirrels, hot dogs, and merry-go-rounds to be of greater import than this “tempest in a teapot” tale.


  152. well I dont know about the rest of you but I have an assault rifle and at least 1000 rounds of ammo for it. A fine piece too, used by the British to assault Tobruk in WWII.

    I am ready for the apocalypse!

    The British took Tobruk from the Italians but lost to the Germans. I used to have a fine German assault rifle as well, sold that one though.

    Enfield or Mauser, now that is a toss up.

  153. 260 girls kidnapped by Islamic terrorists is not “hotdogs or merry-go -rounds” and to imply that is deplorable.

  154. Well Ms. Elaine,

    All due respect, I have never seen someone on a blog try and tell commentors what they can say. Now, I have heard of paid bloggers that have a main purpose and that’s to disrupt blogging on subjects that they are paid to do. I am not saying that’s the case here, but I find it amazing that this is the second thread I have read where it’s of great importance to the GOP/tea party and then they realize that they’ve been had and they try and detail the subject matter at hand.

  155. Straw man. I made a positive suggestion about a real issue thread. I did not say don’t comment here. That accusation that I did is ludicrous and a flop.

  156. Keebler – you are dodging the bigger issue on the Obama administraton’s connection to contract fraud.

  157. Nick,
    I think all of the threads are worthy of the full attention of all of the readers and commenters.

  158. Agreed, raf. Tell those who obsess on some threads and ignore most others. That’s not me!!

  159. I think I am going to quote that wise white woman, Hillary Clinton and say “This is old news.”

  160. However, I’m a libertarian. They have a right to so, and I have a right to simply point it out.

  161. Annie – there has been some psychological studies done on people in the arts and directors are usually ‘mother-figures’ who see the production as their child and the participants as their children.

  162. I don’t have to think twice to figure out the one who is “obsessing.” It’s the one who appears fixated on my posts, what posts I comment on, my comments, my use of links, etc.

    Must be off now. It’s a gorgeous day here–and I’m going to take my granddaughter for a walk to the park.

  163. Darren,

    Many thanks for the server 505 error explanation and sorry I did not get back to you earlier.

    But I hope there is no follow-up written exam. I would need many hours of study.

  164. Funny. I wouldn’t have thought Sheriff Joe had any need of a tank, either. Although, perhaps there is an unruly daycare center or two that demands extra intimidation …oops, …I meant caution.

  165. Sheriff Joe’s tank is actually a motorized battering ram. The gun barrel has been retrofitted to make it a ram. Personally, seeing that thing coming at me, I would surrender. :) However, some drug houses are heavily secured and the motorized ram makes it easier to get in when they are executing a raid. I give him points for creativity.

  166. It seemed like there was more to the story of Boko Haram kidnapping 260 girls and not getting any coverage for weeks and this buffoon being headline news. Well, The Daily Beast and Jake Tapper have explained why. For over 2 years, Congress and terrorism experts had pleaded w/ Hillary as Sec. of State to put this group on the international terrorist list. She refused. Why, well we don’t know because Princess Hillary won’t answer questions. Kerry added them to the list in November after taking office. The Princess has some ‘splaining to do.

  167. Is this what they call thread jacking Nick, I know you’re paid. But really, do this on one of Jonathan’s threads and I won’t call you out. But, you’ve made it clear you don’t like school teachers, unions or the like. Just move on, please….

    This is about the thief named Clive Bundy…. The GOP poster boy….. Until, the found out the fact!

  168. Mr Keebler,

    I haven’t as yet seen someone suggest to the male bloggers that they should be commenting on “important” threads. I wonder why. Some folks may have more free time than I and be able to read and comment on all of the articles posted on this blog. I’m busy much of the time caring for my young granddaughter…and visiting with my ninety-six year old mother. I also write for a couple of other blogs–as well as write children’s poetry.

  169. No, Paul.

    Uncle Joe has a TANK. He uses that tank as a ‘battering ram’.

    Wasn’t there a story about some D list actor driving that tank on some kind of raid?

    Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it was just a third rate ‘reality’ show. Governments don’t do such things.

  170. Paul

    Yikes! Darned if Steven Seagal didn’t drive Uncle Joe’s tank. And it was to break up an evil bomb making factory! No. cross that out. It was to bust a cock-fighting ring. That maybe would score Uncle Joe some illegals, I betcha.

    But, no worries. Nobody hurt.

    Except a puppy.

  171. I have always said the Joe has a tank. Never said he didn’t. I would double-dog dare you to call Steven Seagal a D list actor to his face. The tank was used to break down the fence around the yard. The claimants are not claiming that Seagal killed the puppy, rather that it ended up dead during the raid and Seagal should pay them $100k and give them an apology. There actually seems to be a lack of evidence that the puppy existed. However, it appears some 100 fighting cocks and hens were killed when the Sheriff’s Dept blew the windows out of the house. Now I ask you, who keeps 100 fighting cocks and hens inside their house?

  172. Keebler – some of us were commenting on the ebb and flow of conversations on any thread and that it was the rare thread the kept exactly to the topic at hand.

  173. Paul,

    I believe you asserted that it was a motorized battering ram.

    And you also asserted that it was NOT a tank. That it was a battering ram.

    However, if I am incorrect, I hope you will pardon me. I sometimes have trouble knowing just where you are standing on a particular point at any particular moment.

    Mea culpa.

  174. It is not a TANK in that the cannon has been disabled. It used to be a Tank. It is basically a motorized battering ram, now. But you can call it whatever you want.

    Keebler – if you can hook me up with getting paid for this, please send me the link or ph. no. And I do not know why you are so protective of the female GBers, they can handle themselves. They really do not need your help.

  175. So,let me get this straight from you righties. You think that that bunch of cowards who hide behind their women,illegally stopped drivers and checked their I.D. And terrorized the townspeople of Bunkerville are Patriots?
    If a left wing group,like the American Indian Movement,had done that,you would have demanded,like you did at Wounded Knee in 1973,that the Feds go in and wipe them out.

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