Do Monkeys Reject Unequal Pay?

By Darren Smith, Weekend Contributor

capuchin-monkey-in-leavesA vital question of social equality was tested recently before the scientific community. Do monkeys accept the social justice issue of equal pay?

We have uncovered an experiment that shows quite conclusively the answer to this question.

Video below the fold…

By Darren Smith

The views expressed in this posting are the author’s alone and not those of the blog, the host, or other weekend bloggers. As an open forum, weekend bloggers post independently without pre-approval or review. Content and any displays or art are solely their decision and responsibility.

219 thoughts on “Do Monkeys Reject Unequal Pay?

  1. What is proven is that one of them rejects being treated unequally, but the other does not.

    Dignity would be shown by the one who was getting the grapes refusing the pay –because it did not want to be the recipient of the fruits of inequity.

    All they needed to do to elucidate upon hypocrisy would have been to switch the positions of the bowls.

    If the one that had being treated unfairly was offered the grapes instead of the cucumber, but rejected the grape because the other was only getting a cucumber slice.

    To test if they can project their comprehension into the future, mix an equal number of cucumbers and grapes in each bowl, so that each would eventually be paid the same, but not each time they handed over a rock (random grape/cucumber mix).

    For example, Bees can contemplate future events then act out their expectations:

    When the professor arrived at the nectar source there were no bees present. But when he arrived at the place where the nectar should have been for that day (but had not been moved there yet), there were all the bees waiting for him! Not only had the bees gotten the math correct (25% farther), but the implication is that they had demonstrated the imagination to be able to picture the future by picturing the nectar—not where it was—but where it was going to be! The professor wrote that he would never have done such an experiment on purpose since he never would have thought that the bees could have been so intelligent!

    (Will We Destroy Food – The Bees?).

  2. Great video.

    What is not talked about is how the animals are caged. This is basically what is happening in society as government grows bigger and more controlling of our lives. We become like caged animals whose only recourse to better one’s position in life is to protest to government.

    The researcher mentions the Wall Street protest, but he does not consider how this is related to a CAGED animal being mistreated by its caretaker. If the animal was free to work for the same grapes that the other monkey was receiving, there would be no protest. The monkey would simply change jobs in order to receive grapes instead of cucumbers.

  3. Great video and great point, David. Too bad the Obama administration treats women like the monkey getting the cucumbers. Although, I’m sure Princess Valerie gets the grapes. Senator Wendy Davis needs to lecture our President before anyone else.

  4. David, profound observations. It is amazing how many here continually buck your powers of observing the road less traveled. They remind me of John Candy, in the movie Planes Trains and Automobiles, who is driving the wrong way on the freeway, and when another motorist tries to alert him, he’s too unaware of the larger picture to recognize his own folly, preferring to interpret the alert as a challenge to race the motorist instead, digging himself in deeper and deeper for what can only be eventual disaster. Even when your detractors know they’ve come up short, they refuse to give you a break, stubbornly dipping in dirty bath water, over and over and over again.

  5. Samantha, Great comment. Some of the most vicious attackers of David are no longer here. I don’t agree w/ all he says but I respect his intellect and honor. He and I are completely in agreement here. Unlike liberals, we free thinkers allow people to not toe a line. They’ll never get that.

  6. SWM, You stated I used the word “feminazi” when I did not, and never have. I need an apology on that before I converse.

  7. nick, No, you misread me or I miscomunicated it. I was called that before you ever set foot on this blog.

  8. You miscommunicated it then. Because you accused both myself and Paul of saying it. I don’t know if Paul did, I did not, and never have.

  9. It was another poster or two, and I was trying not to name names in order to avoid re-hashing old conflicts.

  10. swarthmoremom wrote: “That’s why we need a law to ensure everyone gets treated equally.”

    Rather than having government determine pay and force employers to comply, another approach is to educate employees, women and blacks, either to be satisfied with their pay, negotiate for higher pay, or look for a job with another company that will pay them more.

    How do you really know that the employers actually agree that they are getting the same kind of work from them? Sometimes employers accept someone for a position because they will accept lower pay. Sometimes the inferior work is sufficient and the willingness to work for lower pay makes the business model work better. Having the same job title does not mean they perform just as well. Just look at President Obama as an example. It may very well be that if you force employers to provide equal pay, they may resort to hiring men over women, leading to higher unemployment among women.

    Take for example her statistic about hispanics having the greatest disparity. Could that be from newly arrived immigrants from our neighboring country to the south arriving here with a lower skill set being included in that statistic? Could it be that their willingness to work for lower pay translates to more of them being hired and contributing to that statistic? If an employer can hire two Hispanics for the same price as one non-Hispanic, maybe his business model works better and he does that. If the government forces equal pay, the employer will then not employ the two Hispanics and hire someone with a greater skill set.

    I can tell you that as an employer, I have often hired someone who was willing to work for lower pay with the expectation that I could train them and in a few years they could then earn the same as the unknown applicant that I passed over. If it didn’t work out, if the person could not be trained for the position, I am out less money than if I took a chance with the person expecting higher pay for the position if they also did not work out.

    Something just seems wrong with having government determine the pay. Let the two parties agree among themselves what kind of work will be done for what level of pay they will receive. If there is disparity in pay, so what. I really don’t see anything wrong with pay disparity if both parties have agreed to it.

  11. David, Employers tell you women are MUCH more likely to accept the first offer of salary. If you start out behind you most likely will remain behind the annual salary increases of men, since you accepted a lower salary to start. Too many women are uncomfortable w/ negotiations, not only in salary but in purchasing. My wife can’t even be w/ me when I’m negotiating a car. When we went to Sorrento a few years ago she saw purse she loved but it was 250 euro, and she’s frugal. I said, would you buy it for 150. She said yes. When I started negotiating she bolted from the store. I got it for 145. Now, this woman is tough, hell she was the first female caseworker @ Leavenworth. And, she LOVES a good deal, but she just can’t negotiate it. My daughter is the exact opposite. She played competitive sports, which I think makes a difference. A positive effect of Title 9. I suspect this unequal pay as the new generation of women start negotiating that opening salary. We don’t need a law, we need women to grow a pair. And, they are. It’s the older women who are bringing down the equality. I bet SWM’s daughter has no problem negotiating a salary.

  12. Goodness, this is why Obama pays his women less and the NYTimes pays its women less. They lead by example. I am only following the Great Leader.

  13. Paul, But, but, but, they hired their FIRST black editor. The irony of booting the first woman for the first editor is priceless. The liberal establishment is way behind the real world. Merit is the standard in the real world. The liberal world is all about symbolism.

  14. swarthmoremom, in response to your link about the GOP objections:

    I had a client in Arkansas where I had been several times installing software and training employees for their business. The company was started by a man, but his daughter had assumed oversight of the company as he entered his twilight years. For whatever reason, most all of the employees were women. All but one store had female managers. I marveled at how many women the company hired compared to other companies. The only men seemed to be delivery guys, except for the one male manager.

    Ironically, a woman applied for a job that had opened to deliver furniture. The sole male manager mistakenly informed her that they usually hire men for delivery because they are usually better able to lift the large sofas that need to be delivered. The applicant filed a complaint EEOC and the company was fined $20,000. The owner of the company paid the fine. I was shocked that the owner did not fight the complaint because it seemed to me that she could have easily proven that they hire more women than men, especially for management level positions. Her perspective was that the manager made a mistake making that comment and she needs to better train her managers not to make statements like the one he did.

    Cases like this one show how a bad law leads to injustice, penalizing a company improperly simply because they prefer to hire strong burly men for a job that requires heavy lifting. The Republicans are right to oppose federal legislation forcing employers to comply with these unnecessary gender mandates.

  15. Women prefer to work in a cooperative, rather than a competitive, environment. A cooperative environment tends toward fairness for all. A competitive environment tends toward identifying and rewarding the greediest.

    Pay inequality has always been known by employers b/c they instituted it. It is now generally known and objected to by nearly all women and some men. If a law were not necessary, employers would have moved to fairness. They have not, they have continued with unequal pay. A law is necessary.

    David’s argument assumes that women are paid less b/c they deserve less, that they are less qualified and do substandard work that is acceptable to the employer. I disagree. My experience as a manager who got to hear how other managers, all male, evaluated women vs men, including prospective hires and prospective promotions, suggests that men just don’t see women as having the same capabilities or the same potential as men. My direct experience with my gender and ethnically diverse departments showed them to be shortsighted and unfair.

    Why should a female editor of a major newspaper receive a smaller salary and retirement package that the previous (male) editor? The value of the job has already been established. Her compensation should match that of her predecessor who received even more when the value of his compensation is calculated in today’s value.

    The double standard is alive and well and will continue to be so until employers are forced, by law, to provide equal pay for equal work.

  16. David, The owner and her manager should not have rejected the woman applicant b/c she is a woman. The judgement was appropriate. There are many women who can readily handle a sofa. There should have been an assessment of her actual ability to do the job, not an assumption that she couldn’t do the job b/c she is a woman. Do you see the difference?

  17. I would think women who make unequal pay and people who dont make very much money would be highly insulted by this video. Being compared to a capuchin monkey? A bright monkey but that is a relative term, capuchins cant do algebra or brew beer or send rockets to the Moon and Mars. In other words we humans have the capacity to control and alter our environment to our benefit. Capuchins cannot create a vineyard in which to grow grapes and ferment those grapes into wine.

    Humans, most anyway, have that ability if we are willing to take the time and energy to learn how to grow a vineyard and to do a multitude of other tasks which will supply us with fat juicy “grapes.” How well you learn those tasks and the demand for those skills are what creates income inequality in the majority of cases. In some cases the individual just doesnt ask for enough compensation.

    When I was a young engineer, junior engineers made $25,000/year because they didnt yet know enough. Senior engineers made $60,000 plus. I once got a job where I asked for $20,000 less than what the other engineers in the office were making, I didnt do my homework. Do you think the boss is going to say “no, you arent charging enough?” If a woman is making less than a man for equal work, shame on her for not doing her homework and determining what the market will bear. The boss/employer is looking for a deal, dont expect them to hold your hand.

    If you want to compare yourself to a captive monkey be my guest. Personally, I will accept responsibility for my economic status; because we humans have free will and can think.

    “That which you call your soul or spirit is your consciousness, and that which you call “free will” is your mind’s freedom to think or not, the only will you have, your only freedom, the choice that controls all the choices you make and determines your life and your character.”

    “Thinking is not an automatic function. In any hour and issue of his life, man is free to think or to evade that effort. Thinking requires a state of full, focused awareness. The act of focusing one’s consciousness is volitional.”

    So instead of whining about your income inequality, spend some time thinking about how you can make more money; you are not a captive monkey that depends on the keeper for his daily sustenance.

  18. SWM, That piece was a polemic. And, it did not refute the clearly proven fact that women have a hard time negotiating for themselves, but do well negotiating FOR others, not themselves. It did point out that sometimes women overcompensate, trying to be tough like men, and are too aggressive. I tend to agree w/ that. It coincides w/ the observations I’ve made dealing much w/ the legal and medical profession over the last 4 decades. During that time I have seen those 2 profession go from virtually all male to almost equal now. Women have made the medical profession MUCH better. They have made men be less paternalistic and pompous. However, women in the legal profession have for the most part been co-opted to date. They try to be like the tough man attorneys, and are too over the top, it’s just not them. Maybe our daughters generation will help the legal profession like our generation helped change the medical profession.

    I did agree w/ some of the other issues in that article.

  19. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303380004579520261283934326?mod=Opinion_newsreel_3

    “At Hard Work U, the kids actually do the dishes and much more while working their way through a four-year degree. Nearly 90% of graduates land jobs—an impressive figure, given the economy’s slow-motion recovery.

    “If I were an employer, I’d take our graduates over those at most any other schools,” says Mr. Davis. “The kids at these East Coast colleges strike me as being a little spoiled. Our graduates don’t expect to come into the company as the CEO.” But they certainly join a company knowing the value of work.”

    They dont seem to think of themselves as captive monkeys.

  20. water seeks its own level, if you don’t like your job or the wages get a better job. A persons worth is measured by how easily they can be replaced. Improve yourself and don’t expect the government to do it for you. This goes for everyone from the minimum wage hamburger flippers to the top executives men and women.

  21. So women are unable to negotiate for themselves? Wow. Don’t tell my daughters that they are unable to negotiate for themselves.
    The idea that government doesn’t need to make a law mandating equality is one of the most incredible statements I have read in a long time. David. Your response seems to state that if only they educate themselves they will know that they should be equal and will negotiate for an equal situation or they can find a better situation in another job in the marketplace. So the employer who is hiring in an unequal fashion is not wrong, the women are wrong for not pulling themselves up and moving to someone who will hire them on an equal basis. The obvious question is since the employers are allowed to treat people unfairly, what stops the other competing employers from doing the same thing?

  22. http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/

    “I do not accuse those who “check” me and my perspective of overt racism, although the phrase, which assumes that simply because I belong to a certain ethnic group I should be judged collectively with it, toes that line. But I do condemn them for diminishing everything I have personally accomplished, all the hard work I have done in my life, and for ascribing all the fruit I reap not to the seeds I sow but to some invisible patron saint of white maleness who places it out for me before I even arrive. Furthermore, I condemn them for casting the equal protection clause, indeed the very idea of a meritocracy, as a myth, and for declaring that we are all governed by invisible forces (some would call them “stigmas” or “societal norms”), that our nation runs on racist and sexist conspiracies. Forget “you didn’t build that;” check your privilege and realize that nothing you have accomplished is real.”

  23. I think it is Harvard that is going to offer ‘check your privilege’ as part of freshmen orientation.

  24. rafflaw:

    Is there a point you are trying to make? If so it is very unclear.

    All employers discriminate? Well yes they do, some want typists and others want engineers, some want stock clerks and some want scientists. And most that I know of want to find the best person for the least amount of money.

    If women actually did make less money, a company would hire only women and have a 23% advantage over a competitor. In formwork construction, 65% of the cost is labor. I could hire all women and immediately run my competition into the ground.

    I dont see that happening in the market.

  25. The vaunted Obama pays his women less for the same job than men in his office. What is the problem?

  26. nick,
    It is tiring that you think it is a proven fact that women can’t negotiate as well as men. There are quite a few female attorneys who would also disagree with you. I read that you agree with much of what SWM or her article stated. I was only discussing the issues of women and their lack of negotiating skills and female attorneys lack of equality, in your mind, with their male counterparts. I guess it is refreshing that you think the younger generation of women might be able to do a better job negotiating an employment situation than their mothers as you suggest women doctors have brought their male counterparts into line. Any data or evidence to support these claims?

  27. rafflaw – you keep dodging that both Obama and the NYTimes pay their women less than their men. And it appears that women lawyers (by survey) make less than their male counterparts.

  28. Paul,
    I am not dodging your comment that Obama administration’s female employees make less than their male counterparts. If you read the link I provided, it suggests the figure might be a little higher, but the important issue is that it is another reason why the law is needed. So everyone has to pay equally. Are you suggesting that you agree with Obama not paying women equally or the New York Times allegedly firing a woman improperly??

  29. The Commander and Chief ignores the law he passed, Obamacare. A prez should not need a law to do what he and all his administration preach to us. He could and should have paid women equally. Rank hypocrisy, just like the way the Veteran’s Administration is lying and killing veterans under hi watch. Like a crooked business, the VA has 2 sets of books under Obama, the Chicago Way.

  30. I am suggesting that you are dodging the issue of Obama and Democrats not paying their women equally but then banging on like Republicans are evil for doing it. And the NYTimes is paying then new editor far more than their woman editor? Is that sexist or racist or both?

  31. It’s the hypocritical liberal way, “Do as I say, not as I do.” It’s consistent w/ taxing people to do charitable acts by the govt. but being stingy w/ their own money vis a vis private charities. And, being sh!tty tippers.

  32. davidm2575


    The monkey would simply change jobs in order to receive grapes instead of cucumbers.
    ================
    Ah, your incessant Imaginary play-pretend somewhere over the rainbow world where you can’t discern the difference between a monkey and a non-monkey.

    Further, that does not address the oppression of the one monkey, or the corruption of the other one.

    The trivialization of corruption is the dynamic of a corrupted cultural amygdala at work.

    It leads to police oppression, racial oppression, gender oppression, oppression of education, oppression of science, and oppression of the Earth.

    It is the foundation of murder, war, and, it is bullshit.

    It is the religion of the authoritarians who are type B, that is, those who hang with the bully to rah rah as the bully oppresses those weaker than the bully.

    Those who work for grapes of wrath shiny medals (“A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.” – Napoleon).

    It is an un-popular American right-wing religion (The Virgin MOMCOM – 6).

    Praise the bully Cheezus (Hypothesis: The Cultural Amygdala – 4)!

  33. I noticed the argument that liberal evil and right-wing evil are not equal.

    Yin-Yang … there is good evil and bad evil.

    Somebody’s brain is dysfunctional.

  34. Dredd – since we are now aware of the corruption of the Obama administration, what is your plan to overcome it? Legally of course.

  35. What, exactly, are the “blessings of liberty” the Founders secured for us? Is it fathomable to anyone here that, under the Constitution, an employer can be told what to pay? The person who answers yes has no grasp of the concept of freedom in America. Along the same line, an employee is free to quit his job and pursue another.

    There is something very fundamentally wrong here. Pay is the business of the company owner exclusively and no entity has any legal basis to compel, unconstitutional laws, corrupt judges and elected officials aside. You might as well say that the Communist Manifesto prevails, not the Constitution.

    Oops! It does, huh?

  36. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – since we are now aware of the corruption of the Obama administration, what is your plan to overcome it? Legally of course.
    ==================
    The wee among us are not we.

    You don’t seem to discern that this post is about primates and potential / hypothetical similarities between primate and human behavior … if any.

    I consider that to be an intellectual impairment, as I suggested to davidm2575 just above.

  37. John

    … an employee is free to quit his job and pursue another.
    ==============
    You are from what country?

    Everyone is free to starve to death too, but this is not the observed behavior of the two primates.

    Nor would most humans trade one bird for two in the bush.

    Rich kid?

  38. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – I think we moved well beyond monkeys with your post at 12:19.
    —————————————-
    Dredd – actually two monkeys a decent study does not make.
    =====================
    That is because you wee who think you are we did not read the first comment on this thread made at 7:49 AM while you were still dreaming of Ronnie RayGun.

    One monkey can be part of a decent study.

    So can two.

    It depends on the scientists, not the primates.

  39. Dredd – I would posit that any results based on one monkey or two monkeys would be suspect and hard to duplicate. Would you like to give me an example of one monkey and two monkey results and the scientific results?

    BTW, I dream of Indira Varma and Polly Walker.

  40. @swarthmoremom “Harry Reid says Jill Abramson’s firing is why we need an equal pay law.”

    I don’t have any special knowledge, but if Abramson had turned around NYT readership I doubt you could pull her out of there with a team of horses.

    She may have been greatly mistreated over pay. But if she had turned around NYT readership either in print or on the internet, I bet they would have payed any price and put up with any management style to keep her.

    Abramson leaving the NYT is a symptom of changes in the way we consume news – and probably a bad sign.

    Equal pay for women is an important but very different issue.

  41. bfm – I do not think anyone can turn the readership around at the NYT. So, when they eventually fire the new editor, will it be racist?

  42. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – I would posit that any results based on one monkey or two monkeys would be suspect and hard to duplicate. Would you like to give me an example of one monkey and two monkey results and the scientific results?

    BTW, I dream of Indira Varma and Polly Walker.
    =================
    The video indicated that it was a composite study, the one example of the two primates as representative of the entire study.

    You don’t believe in science you believe in dreaming.

    One such dream is the same as another … Ronnie RayGun in a bikini is still Ronnie RayGun the myth.

  43. Raff, raff, raff, This “Never give an inch,” or “Never concede anything” is very tedious. A quick Google search provides hundreds of sources, but I will give you two. I’m giving you these because they are sources that comport w/ your world view. First The Huffington Post!!! Please read the 6/13/11 post titled: They Don’t Negotiate, why young women are paid less than men. It may be in this article or another, but women are 8 TIMES more likely to accept the first salary offer than are men. The second is a paper in the Harvard Business Review titled: Nice Girls Don’t Ask.

    As much as women want to make the world more like them, the world is still pretty much ruled and owned by men. Nobody gives you ANYTHING in this world. That’s what I taught my daughter. That is one of the prime roles of fathers. Sons miss out much from not having a father in the home. But, so do girls. When I substitute taught I knew nothing about the kids in the class most the time. But, within a short period I could tell the girls who didn’t have a father in the home. They lock onto an adult male like radar. Boys were more tricky, sometimes I thought the boy had no Dad, but it turned out he just had an a-hole Dad in the home.

  44. Dredd – please do not tell me what I do or do not believe in or what or who I dream about.

  45. Equal pay for college graduates, equal pay for ditch diggers, equal pay for doctors, equal pay for barbers, equal pay for engineers, equal pay for architects, equal pay for all.

    That is BS because everyone has different levels of ability.

    If women are too stupid, weak, conflict avoidant or whatever to negotiate a deal equal to that of a man, they deserve the pay they make. It is their responsibility to negotiate their employment deal, it isnt the company’s responsibility to spoon feed them. I see females starting businesses, I bet they dont pay all women the same for a particular job either.

    I didnt whine about my mistake not asking for a higher salary, I just found a better job after a couple of years. The fact that women are using the Federal government to force payroll decisions is a very bad precedent to set.

    It ends up with ditch diggers making the same as doctors and with no freedom of action.

  46. Dredd:

    If you get treated like a monkey, that is your problem. A monkey doesnt have a human’s capacity for thought.

  47. Byron, If you can’t tell who the mark is @ the poker table, well then, you’re the mark.

  48. Byron

    Dredd:

    If you get treated like a monkey, that is your problem. A monkey doesnt have a human’s capacity for thought.
    =============================
    Neither do certain humans.

    If you get treated like a human, that is your problem.

  49. nick, nick, nick,
    I am not in a concede nothing mode and nothing I have written here suggests that. However, I am glad to see that you finally put in some links(sort of) to evidence that may support your position. Did you ever think why women are at the point that they may accept the first offer? Because they are paid less and in many cases passed over for the job by men. They feel weak in the marketplace. They know how to negotiate, but they do not feel that they are negotiating from a strong position.

  50. Dredd –

    If you can’t tell who the poker is at the poker table, you’re the poker.

    Is this supposed to make sense?

  51. rafflaw – do you think so little of women that you think they are frail little creatures who need protection? Or do progressive men, like Obama and the NYTimes pay them less because they can get away with it?

  52. Paul, Some of the most paternalistic men I have ever gotten to know are right here. We are called sexist for treating women like they are quite capable, they just need to come out of their comfort zone. The paternalistic men tell us “they feel weak in the marketplace.” UNBELIEVABLE. Anyone taking a breath on this planet “feels weak” in situations all the time. We ALL must adapt to the world, not the other way around. My old man would say, “Buck up, buttercup.” Or, Denis Leary says, “Life’s hard, wear a f@ckin’ helmet.”

  53. raff, “They do not feel they are negotiating from a strong position.” That is classic, self fulfilling prophecy.

    “Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are both correct.”
    John Wooden

  54. One of the traits of an abusive person is to isolate them. When people stand up for the rights of other’s, it’s not paternalistic or maternalistic, it’s human decency. Some may not recognize this.

  55. Paul Schulte

    Dredd –

    If you can’t tell who the poker is at the poker table, you’re the poker.

    Is this supposed to make sense?
    ======================
    No, it was in response to senselessness.

  56. Annie

    One of the traits of an abusive person is to isolate them. When people stand up for the rights of other’s, it’s not paternalistic or maternalistic, it’s human decency. Some may not recognize this.
    ==================
    Indeed.

  57. “Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are both correct.”
    John Wooden

    Is that a translation, or just bad poker english …

    “Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are allcorrect.”
    John Boy

  58. “Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are both correct.” – John Wooden

    Is that a translation, or just bad poker English …

    “Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are all correct.” – John Boy

  59. If you don’t know who is plural and who is not at the poker table, you are plural.

    Gotta luv the multi-personality thingy.

    It ain’t science but it is good theater.


  60. Some of the most paternalistic men I have ever gotten to know are right here.

    =================
    That plural bush pater thingy.

    What were you holding when you said that? ;)

  61. Spinelli, are trying to imply I was abused by my husband or a male member of my family? What are you implying here? I think perhaps I will need to email Professor Trurley about your continuing invasion of my privacy. To all commenters here, Spinelli makes comments in which he tries to assert that he knows private things about another commenter. Now I must email Professor Turley once again, too bad to disturb his weekend.

  62. Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB/GYN’s aren’t able to practice their love with women all across the country.”—Bush II, Sept. 6, 2004, Poplar Bluff, Mo.

  63. I am now put in the position of clarifying to commenters here that I was never abused by my husband or a male member of my family. It’s disgusting that the same commenter here continues to engage in this sort of thing.

  64. This has been a very good interchange. Very diverse views, discussed frankly but civilly. Then this. Sigh.

  65. Spinelli, you know exactly what you were doing, one day it will bite you in the ass. Shame on you, you certainly lack that human decency I just spoke of. You may think you will get away with it forever, but you may be surprised.

  66. No Spinelli, the incivilty came when you made assertions about me being abused, you’ve done this numerous times on this blog.

  67. Who introduced abusive males isolating victims out of the blue? Now, let this drop and get back to substance. Should women be treated more “gently” in the interview, salary negotiation process?

  68. Those who say they can, and those who say they can’t, are both correct.” – John Wooden

    Those is plural, implying more than one in each case, both implies two.

    2+2 is not 2.

    Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”—Bush II, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

  69. Annie – when women want equal rights they need to fight on their own. They do not need the help of paternalistic progressive men. And who the heck is isolating victims here? It is Obama and the NYTimes that are short-changing women, not me.

  70. Annie – I think you may be over reacting.

    Nick Spinelli
    One of the traits of one abused by family men is to see abusers in all men.

    That is pretty general, which is the rule of civility.

  71. Generally speaking some men are disgusting human beings, worse than any monkey. Thankfully there are men who walk upright on their hind legs at all times.

  72. Annie,

    The word of the week is “paternalistic.” Got that? Any man who believes in or supports equal rights and pay for women is paternalistic. Methinks some folks must have taken lessons in language use/abuse from Frank Luntz.

  73. Darren,

    What is proven by the experiment is that one of the primates MIGHT reject unequal treatment.

    The other clearly does not because it is an Uncle Clarence.

    Dignity could have been shown by the Uncle Clarence who was offered the grapes … by refusing them until the other primate also received grapes.

    Also, all the scientists needed to do to test hypocrisy would have been to switch the positions … offer the complaining primate grapes but the other one cucumber.

    If the complaining monkey went along with it, it too is just an Uncle Clarence.

    A full understanding of “Do Monkeys Reject Unequal Pay?” requires more than demonstrating self interest.

    That applies even more so to human beings.

  74. Elaine, yes, true. That is why I made the observation of isolating victims and abusive people. They will continuously attempt to denigrate those decent human beings who recognize the realities of a woman’s circumstances in our society and defend them when they see an abuse occur. We as a civilized society haven’t come nearly as far as we could, because some men still walk on all fours. If we as human beings don’t stand up to bullies and abusers they will run roughshod over us and we won’t look all that different than Sudan.

  75. It’s not equal rights being sought by the “victims” here. It’s a women’s tee being sought. Strong women don’t want it. Perpetual victims and enabling, paternalistic men, do.

  76. This debate is so edifying. Women settle for lower pay. Accept the first salary offer. And, it’s men’s fault. You just can’t make this up.

  77. Elaine – you are wrong. Any man who believes that women need to be protected like little flowers is paternalistic. I am a firm advocate of equal pay for equal work with equal time in grade? Elaine, you probably belonged to a teacher’s union. Did all teachers get paid the same? Unlikely. They had a salary scale based on education and time on the job in the district. Should all teachers be paid the same? If they were wouldn’t there be no use for unions?
    I also am a firm advocate of equal rights for women. Still, I am an advocate of equal rights for men. I am far from paternalistic.
    I suppose that Obama who pays his female employees less than his male employees has learned to walk upright on his hind legs at all times?

  78. As anyone who works in the real world knows, it’s HR WOMEN mostly offering those lower salaries to applicants because they know weak kneed women usually take it.

  79. Exactly RIGHT Dredd. I am an example of one who would NEVER submit to unequal treatment and anyone with half a brain in their heads would’ve recognized this trait in me by now and wouldn’t make asinine assertions.

  80. Dredd – I can find the word chimpology used, but I cannot find its use by any scientific group or person.

  81. Annie – I have a full brain in my head and I do not know you well enough to know what you would do.

  82. Nick Spinelli

    It’s not equal rights being sought by the “victims” here.

    ====================
    There is only one victim in the experiment dipshit, it is the primate who was not treated equally.

    And realized it (a sign of awareness).

    And complained (a sign of interaction).

    To extrapolate that into the bullshit you and Joe Paterno’s boyz are animating exhibits less sentience than the primate.

    Yet, as I said to Darren, his question and his experiment are dyslexic and dysfunctional in terms of answering the scientific question he posed.

    Thus, he has appealed and the boyz have reacted to well … I won’t say in the interest of civility.

  83. Abusive men don’t KNOW what a STRONG woman is. They have only dealt with weak women who submit. When abusive men meet a truly strong woman, they don’t know what to do with themselves. I have a few suggestions.

  84. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – I can find the word chimpology used, but I cannot find its use by any scientific group or person.
    =====================
    That is why I used it here.

  85. Dredd – you have periods during the day when you seem to get harder to understand. Your posts seem to become more cryptic. You seem to make connections that only you seem to understand.

  86. Paul,

    Any man who supports women’s rights and equal pay for equal work is treating women like little flowers? Get real! You’re analogy is a poor one indeed. As a female teacher in my school system, I got paid the same as a man who had the same years of experience and level of education. One’s salary had nothing to do with whether a teacher was a male or female. That’s the way it should be.

  87. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – you have periods during the day when you seem to get harder to understand. Your posts seem to become more cryptic. You seem to make connections that only you seem to understand.
    ======================
    I have noticed that about you.

    It could be your diet.

  88. Elaine – that is not what I asked and you know it. I asked if all teachers should be paid the same.

  89. That was union socialism, not the meritocracy where the vast majority of people live and work. That is part of your problem understanding this fundamental concept.

  90. Annie – Generally speaking some women are disgusting human beings, worse than any monkey. Thankfully there are women who walk upright on their hind legs at all times.

  91. Have we all settled down now. Very well. Women accept the first salary offer 8 times more than men. Here’s the biggest step that could be taken by women to erase salary inequity. STOP TAKING THE FIRST OFFER!!!

  92. Annie, nick is very good at trolling, i.e. making statements designed to denigrate and get people upset. He manages to word them so that it’s some group delineated by his grouping terminology. He frequently insults many people on this blog, especially when he “welcomes” new people by telling them of the biased/liberal/whatever is his favorite term of the day. His bragging about being non-PC is telling. Most of us long ago gave up using words that are disrespectful and insulting. I used to get upset at Mike for going after nick so strongly. Now I understand.

  93. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – I am open to Care packages of food if you would like to send them.
    ===================
    You know I care.

  94. bk, On this thread I have been accused of “abusive personally issues” and called a “dipshit.” Any thoughts. What abusive words have I used. Paternalistic? That’s not abusive. Please give me some facts, not feelings, facts.

  95. Nick Spinelli

    Have we all settled down now. Very well. Women accept the first salary offer 8 times more than men. Here’s the biggest step that could be taken by women to erase salary inequity. STOP TAKING THE FIRST OFFER!!!
    ==================
    The lame contest winner!!!!

    Women are offered sucky salaries 8 times more than men.

    By Uncle Clarence.

  96. Well, I thought we were back to substance. Get all the personal stuff out of your systems. Then we can take another shot @ this important issue.

  97. Dredd – send away. I am partial to chocolate, but it is hot here now and they would melt. Think of something appropriate and healthy. My wife intends that I live another 20 years or so.

  98. Dipshit is a war tactic and sometimes strategy taught by Sun Tzu, and is a term of endearment according to Bernays:

    When going to war, there are a great number of things you should do, and a great number of things you should not do. Sun Tzu touched on these things, so has Che Guevara, Mao Tse Dong, et cetera. However, my high horse is so high that I feel it necessary to make a bit of war commentary. I am a far superior douchebag than all previously listed.

    When you’re a dipshit, you don’t fight on the home turf of your enemy. One would think this is a piece of common sense, however, remember the distinctly important term, “Dipshit.” So save your breath, and don’t risk carpal tunnel: If you are a dipshit, do not blast those who judge you on their public forums. It’s a simple bit of logic, let it sink in: You are a dipshit. To go to the source, to attempt ridicule against the authority on Dipshittery™, is masochism at best. I really understand that you feel you’re an intellectual. Understand though that every single instance of the Dipshit believes similarly, that for each of the preceding 12 symptoms, most people and I can name valid examples, each of which under false impression of intellect.

    I welcome negative comments. I welcome hatemail. I welcome all manner of ridiculousness. However, understand that you are on a blog called “Profile of a Dipshit.” You are dealing with a person who qualifies himself as the utmost authority on Dipshittery. Unless you are flawless in execution, you are nigh guaranteed to give evidence of your blathering stupidity. You are Poland, you are fighting a ground war in Russia.

    (The Greatest Dipshits are Goo People). It is a primal primate love bite of about 4 bits.

  99. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – send away. I am partial to chocolate, but it is hot here now and they would melt. Think of something appropriate and healthy. My wife intends that I live another 20 years or so.
    ===============
    Same here.

    Chocolate it is.

  100. bettykath – some people are very good at trying to stir the pot. Let’s just take Dredd’s comment “By Uncle Clarence” which is both demeaning and racist, unless Dredd is black in case it is just demeaning.

  101. Paul Schulte

    bettykath – some people are very good at trying to stir the pot. Let’s just take Dredd’s comment “By Uncle Clarence” which is both demeaning and racist, unless Dredd is black in case it is just demeaning.
    =================
    No it isn’t.

    It is recognition of The Stockholm Syndrome.

    The greatest psychological problem.

    He is the poster man of the syndrome.

    The kid has deep seated problems.

  102. Dredd – the Stockholm Syndrome would indicate that I was a victim and identified with my captors. I am not a victim and I identify with almost no one. And victims of Stockhold Syndrome do not have deep seated problems, they have only one problem that usually is overcome fairly easily.

  103. Annie – that is a nice suggestion, but I cannot eat raw fruit, it has to be cooked or processed.

  104. Turns out it makes a difference whether the situation is controlled by a technician or if the monkeys work out the distribution on their own.

    http://www.emory.edu/LIVING_LINKS/publications/articles/Brosnan_etal_2006.pdf

    excerpt:
    American Journal of Primatology 68:713–724 (2006)
    RESEARCH ARTICLE
    Partner’s Behavior, Not Reward Distribution, Determines Success in an Unequal Cooperative Task in Capuchin Monkeys
    SARAH F. BROSNAN, CASSIOPEIA FREEMAN, AND FRANS B.M. DE WAAL

    It was recently demonstrated that capuchin monkeys notice and respond
    to distributional inequity, a trait that has been proposed to support the
    evolution of cooperation in the human species. However, it is unknown
    how capuchins react to inequitable rewards in an unrestricted coopera-
    tive paradigm in which they may freely choose both whether to
    participate and, within the bounds of their partner’s behavior, which
    reward they will receive for their participation. We tested capuchin
    monkeys with such a design, using a cooperative barpull, which has been
    used with great success in the past. Contrary to our expectations, the
    equity of the reward distribution did not affect success or pulling
    behavior. However, the behavior of the partner in an unequal situation
    did affect overall success rates: pairs that had a tendency to alternate
    which individual received the higher-value food in unequal reward
    situations were more than twice as successful in obtaining rewards than
    pairs in which one individual dominated the higher-value food. This
    ability to equitably distribute rewards in inherently biased cooperative
    situations has profound implications for activities such as group hunts, in
    which multiple individuals work together for a single, monopolizable
    reward.

  105. Elaine, Considering the source is a good alternative. I just got tired of ignoring the passive-aggressive snarks.

    Annie, How about chocolate covered bananas buried in strawberries?

  106. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – the Stockholm Syndrome would indicate that I was a victim and identified with my captors. I am not a victim and I identify with almost no one.

    ========================
    That is why I don’t call you Uncle Clarence.

  107. Bett,

    Just have some See’s White Apple Pie truffle. It was to die for. Speaking of intelligence the trolls think they have a market on snark and monopolizing the threads.

    They say not to feed them, but they have been effective in getting a number of folks temporarily suspended from here. Hence, the less you engage them, not respond to them the better off you are.

    I think it was nick or Paul that was bragging one day about how many of the originals they have run off. Those they do not deem a threat they smooze with. They want them in there corner. I know you are smart enough to see through this, some aren’t.

    Good seeing you. Btw I really like Elaine and all you regular folks. Men and women.

  108. Bettykath, that actually sounds really good.

    I totally understand the fatigue with the passive aggressive stuff. Then when one responds out of frustration, one risks sinking to the level of the abusers and incurring the wrath of the deletion gods.

  109. bettykath – there have been some studies done on playing children and girls are more likely to make sure that everyone shares equally, but the boys play for keeps.

  110. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – … victims of Stockhold Syndrome do not have deep seated problems, they have only one problem that usually is overcome fairly easily.
    ==================
    Wrong:

    The Stockholm Syndrome was named in 1973 by psychologist Nils Bejerot after the hostage victims of a Stockholm, Sweden robbery and six-day kidnapping resisted being rescued, defended their captors, and refused to testify against them. Two of the women hostages eventually became engaged to the captors.

    When victims are under tremendous emotional and physical duress, they may begin to identify with their abusers or captors as a defensive mechanism. The victim develops a strategy of staying alive by keeping the captor happy and eventually sympathizes with the captor. Small acts of kindness on the part of the abuser increases the emotional bond.

    Stockholm Syndrome is a common survival mechanism of

    captured brides
    battered women
    physically and/or emotionally abused children
    incest victims
    prostitutes
    cult members
    concentration camp prisoners
    prisoners of war
    those in controlling and/or intimidating relationships
    hijacked victims
    hostages..

    It is believed that Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart experienced Stockholm Syndrome.

    Speak for yourself about it being easy to shake off.

    Don’t speak for Uncle Clarence.

  111. You know what I find most amusing, is this that are incapable if comprehension of the issues attack the messenger than figure out the message, right Paul? You seeking to get people banned, deleted, suspended?

    I hear someone got a stern message from the owner, how’s that work out for you? Person not named.

  112. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – the Stockholm Syndrome would indicate that I was a victim and identified with my captors.

    ============================
    Self reporting, self analysis, and self medicating is suspect:

    For decades, researchers have expressed concern that self-report racial attitude measures are vulnerable to distortion from pressures respondents feel to present themselves as unprejudiced.

    (Symbolic Racism: A Look At The Science – 3, @1,). Let someone else determine if “the Stockholm Syndrome would indicate that I was a victim” … then get a second opinion.

  113. Keebler – I have no idea who the ‘originals’ are/were. I have only been on here about 2 months. I understand that two former GBers are no longer with us but they were gone before I got on here. Since I have been on here a few people have been banned but it has not been permanent. In the last few cases I was gone from the site when people were banned and clearly had no part in it.

  114. Dredd – symbolic racism does not exist, the science behind it is as phony as the data that Michael Mann is hiding. Social sciences are neither social or a science.

  115. Mr Keebler,

    Some of these trolls are like the guy in Waterworld … the old man deep down in the oil storage tank on the Exxon Valdez … the club-house of “the Smokers.”

    He had been there breathing that crap forever.

    When the mutant (Kevin Costner) dropped the “enlightenment stick” (flare) down into the hold, he was happy for the first time in a long time cause he knew “freedom” was just a boom boom away.

  116. rickard engström dalsjöfors

    Hi there! I just wanted to ask if you ever have any issues with hackers?
    My last blog (wordpress) was hacked and I ended up losing a few months of hard work due to no data backup.
    Do you have any solutions to protect against hackers?
    ==================
    Depends on the content of your blog.

    Support Ed Snowden or the military NSA, depending on your content.

  117. The usefulness for some of the advice for women in regard to wages given here seems to depend on the assumption that the negotiating position of women is similar to that of men.

    That certainly is not true in an historical sense and I doubt that it is true today. In the past women were hired into pink collar worker ghettos. Women still find in harder to enter and advance in certain professions.

    In the past women were regularly paid less because it was believed there wages were less necessary for the well being of the family. I don’t have the stats to prove it, but I would bet that historical women’s work is still underpaid when compared to other similar work. In effect wage patterns have a memory. People in the field fine it difficult to negotiate for wages above the pattern because offers are typically tied to what the individual has earned in the past. People entering the field find it difficult to negotiate for wages above the pattern because of competition from those field.

    These days, women are frequently the families only wage owner. When you link that to the fact that women are frequently the parent with child custody it is not hard to see that women’s opportunities for job search and position in negotiation are likely compromised.

    I am not sure how to quantify the situation but it seems to me likely that women have far less power in wage negotiations than men with similar education and experience.

    Don’t take the first offer makes perfect sense unless the rent is due and your not sure if the open balance in you checking will buy a weeks groceries and you are pretty sure that the next offer is going to be about the same as the last one.

    But I have always found monkeys very impressive. They seem to have difficult with symbolic language which suggest they might have difficulty with first semester calculus. But that puts them about equal to most freshmen.

    Aside from that I think they usually come out ahead in most standardize tests.

  118. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – symbolic racism does not exist, the science behind it is as phony as the data that Michael Mann is hiding. Social sciences are neither social or a science.
    =================
    I know that is your Baptist mantra, but how do you know all that “Stockhold Syndrome” stuff you said up-thread if it is not reputable?

  119. Dredd – I would say you were mixing metaphors but you are mixing goodness knows what. I know Stockholm Syndrome exists because I saw it happen when a gunman took over a local tv newcast and they continued the broadcast until the man was arrested. The newscaster was upset that the police knocked the kidnapper to the ground and then cuffed him. He had bonded with him. Classic Stockholm Syndrome.

  120. Paul Schulte

    bettykath – there have been some studies done on playing children and girls are more likely to make sure that everyone shares equally, but the boys play for keeps.
    ——————–
    Exactly. What I said in my first (iirc) post on this thread: women tend to work cooperatively and men tend to work competitively. I think men would appreciate the cooperative environment if they took the time to understand it and were willing to let everyone have an equitable share.

  121. I once worked for a very large corporation that used to check with the manager of a woman’s husband to see how much money he made before giving the woman a raise. She was not allowed, as a matter of company practice, to make as much, or heaven forbid more than, her husband.

  122. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – I would say you were mixing metaphors but you are mixing goodness knows what. I know Stockholm Syndrome exists because I saw it happen when a gunman took over a local tv newcast and they continued the broadcast until the man was arrested. The newscaster was upset that the police knocked the kidnapper to the ground and then cuffed him. He had bonded with him. Classic Stockholm Syndrome.
    =========================
    Like me, you only know that through the work of scientists, because they study such behavior –if only to classify it.

    Then later delve into it in search of solutions and understandings.

    It takes good scientific methods to competently navigate the waters of cognition, so I am comfortable calling them scientists.

    It is a much better profession, these days anyway, than being a politician.

    So respect the science those professionals develop, by studying it while following your interests, and then criticize it.

    Cause it exists.

  123. bettykath – I, on the other hand, think that women would benefit from learning to play to win. Guys play to win and then they generally get over it. Women are different. They are competitive by nature, they just hide it. They compete with each other over who got the best deal, who has the best boy friend, who has the best house, who has the best car, etc. They just don’t admit they are competing. They just need to admit it. :)

  124. Dredd – as more an more stuff comes out on the problems with fraud in science I am losing faith in science and scientist. I get a ScienceDaily and almost every day there is some new study that overturns a study from last week. I am horrified that Michael Mann is allowed to hide the climate data so that no one can duplicate his supposed conclusions. We are supposed to take it on faith.

  125. bfm – I think some studies have shown that in comparable jobs, women are making the same money as men, except in a few places. Politics is one of them.

  126. Mr Keebler

    After reading your last post, I think you may want to take the following test>

    Signs of a Stroke

    FACE: Ask your loved one to smile. Does one side of his or her face droop?
    ARMS: Ask your loved one to raise both arms. Does one arm drift downward?
    SPEECH: Ask your loved one to repeat a simple phrase. Does his or her speech sound slurred or strange?
    TIME: Time is crucial. Call 9-1-1 immediately if you or your loved one has any of these symptoms.

  127. Paul,

    Can you be more specific about those studies? Who,conducted the studies? When were they conducted? What were the sizes of the populations studied?

  128. Elaine – I am not sure which studies you are talking about? I have been on here for about 13 hours and have written about several different studies.

  129. “some studies have shown that in comparable jobs, women are making the same money as men, except in a few places.”

    Well that is good news. As for politics, I think the sooner we reduce salaries for senators and congressmen to minimum wage the better we will all be. Their health insurance should be Medicaid and to help make up some of the difference we ought to issue them uniforms – comfortable garage man shoes, blue pants with pocket Tee’s and their first name stenciled on the pocket.

    Of course that would give some of our representatives even greater incentive to kowtow to the lobbyist – which is why political contributions would go into a blind trust to be distributed to the appropriate campaign committee by an impartial trustees.

    Now I know that sounds a little radical, but that seems the best we can do till we get some of those fair minded monkeys trained up and ready to assume the reins of power.

    BTW, have you been reading some of the reports about increasing difficulty replicating scientific studies – not fraud but difficulty with many studies. What’s up with that. Isn’t replication, the ability to reproduce results, sort of the foundation of science.

    Well I think it is about time for me to take some of that herbal extract which probably has about as much chance of working as the prescription I’m supposed to take – if you believe the FDA when it claims it is safe and effective.

  130. Elaine – I didn’t grab them when i saw them but they are probably only a couple of months old. You should be able to find them without too much trouble. I am starting to wear out and need a nap. :)

  131. bfm – had not heard about problems duplicating studies except where there was some kind of fraud involved.

  132. Elaine – that is as specific as I am going to get right now. Couple of hours earlier I would have looked for them. But you are a capable researcher so I know you can find them.

  133. BFM, The most recent studies have been conducted on recent graduates[aforementioned Huffpo reference up thread], male and female, first jobs out of college. I’ve not seen any marriage data but certainly the vast majority are unmarried. Women still take the first offers 5-8 times more than men. If you start out lower because of timidity you’re playing catch up. And as I said, many HR people are women. They know women, and give them lower offers, knowing they’ll take them. Just like women waiters can pick out the crappy women tippers, and there are a lotta them! This isn’t playing Candyland, this is the real world. My daughter was given an offer by her employer. She gave an alternative, 7k more or a Roth IRA matching contribution for her contributions up to 7k. Her employer took the latter, both are happy. I knew my daughter was going to do fine when we took her to the Bahamas when she was 12. We went to a market and she was arguing, bargaining, for trinkets. The Bahamian women loved it, as did my daughter. Maybe this weak kneed Ivy League women need to go to 3rd world markets and learn how to be tough.

  134. I did not document when I read about difficulties replicating scientific studies. But I just Googled ‘problems replicating studies’ and there are more than a few articles beginning with the Economist and including APA, Nature, The Boston Globe, Salon.

    I am no scientist but I would guess there are some real concerns about the institution of science or maybe there is an echo chamber – don’t even get me started.

  135. Thanks for the remarks, Nick. Congratulations to your daughter. The succeeding generation is often even tougher and better adapted than the first, so I am pretty sure she will do just fine.

  136. BFM, Science has become politicized. They get funding for the correct results. They are bought by corporations and government. It is APPALLING and does not bode well for making informed decisions on facts, not feelings.

  137. Mhj,

    Trust me the truth is better. Less stress, less chance if stroke. Please do as you said. I am sure someone you know would take you to the hospital. Tell me you address and I am sure I could have an emergency team respond. That I promise.

  138. BFM, I said the same as you earlier about our daughter’s generation. They get it. And, Title 9 has helped, having them learning how to compete, and like it.We have only the original feminists here, as far as I can tell. I often hope young women and men would join this blog. I hoped Jonathan’s students might chime in, but that hasn’t happened as far as I can see. We’ve gotten more diversity here, but we have a long way to go.

  139. Without the original feminists the young women of today wouldn’t be as assertive as they are. In one breath some people denigrate feminists, young AND old, in the other breath they brag on the accomplishments of young women today. 30 years ago our daughters wouldn’t be where they are today and today young women aren’t as far as they could be, if it weren’t for the instructionaled sexism. So some don’t understand that the ” old” feminists paved the way. Blind ignorance.

  140. Keebler – that kind of remark is why some of us are worried about you. It just doesn’t make sense.

  141. Mr Keebler,
    I was not attacking you. I was very serious.
    After reading your 5/17@1822 comment (following) I was sure it was applicable.

    “You know what I find most amusing, is this that are incapable if comprehension of the issues attack the messenger than figure out the message, right Paul”

  142. “Some girls are more fun to take flying than others.”

    Looks like more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

  143. Paul Schulte

    Dredd – as more an more stuff comes out on the problems with fraud in science I am losing faith in science and scientist. I get a ScienceDaily and almost every day there is some new study that overturns a study from last week. I am horrified that Michael Mann is allowed to hide the climate data so that no one can duplicate his supposed conclusions. We are supposed to take it on faith.
    ===================
    You and Nick and I criticize errors in science, as we should.

    But it would be a mistake for us to throw out the baby with the bath water.

    One of my criticisms is that scientists are too quiet at the wrong times, so propagandists of Oil-Qaeda deceive people.

    My criticisms have been published widely (A Peek At The Peak Oil Catastrophe).

  144. They only reject it in the Sudan. There, a female monkey must wear a head scarf and a male monkey a turban. Never equal pay.

  145. Dredd, excellent Ted Talk, the pillars of humanity empathy and fairness. What happens to a society when those pillars crumble?

  146. Annie

    Dredd, excellent Ted Talk, the pillars of humanity empathy and fairness. What happens to a society when those pillars crumble?
    ==================
    We rely on Venus.

  147. Bettykath wrote: “David’s argument assumes that women are paid less b/c they deserve less, that they are less qualified and do substandard work that is acceptable to the employer. I disagree.”

    That is not at all my argument. My argument is that *IF* a woman accepts less pay for the same job, then there is no foul. If both parties agree to the wage, it does not matter what others are paid.

  148. BettyKath wrote: “The owner and her manager should not have rejected the woman applicant b/c she is a woman. The judgement was appropriate.”

    The owner was not involved. The manager accepted her application, but he had made the comment beforehand that they usually hire men for that position.

    I do not think it is fair for government to force an employer to pay someone to do an assessment of the ability for job performance when they are making a hiring decision. Employers should have the freedom to hire whoever they want for any reason they choose.

  149. rafflaw wrote: “The obvious question is since the employers are allowed to treat people unfairly, what stops the other competing employers from doing the same thing?”

    They are not treating anyone unfairly if both agree to the terms. What is unfair is if the employer agrees to pay a particular wage and then pays less than the agreed upon amount. What is unfair is for the employee to whine and complain about getting paid less than another employee in the company.

  150. “They are not treating anyone unfairly if both agree to the terms.”

    I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but your remarks seem to depend in something like: you should have the freedom to use your economic power to use the market to get the best result for you.

    But that ignores the fact that your actions have effects beyond the agreement between you and the other party.

    As a society we have already decided that you do not have the right to discriminate against various groups – even if your economic power allows you to exploit the market it that way. You don’t have the right to refuse to hire certain groups. You don’t have the right to systematically pay certain groups less than others. You don’t have the right to assign work or promote in ways that slight certain groups.

    The fact that you have the economic power to use the market to get a result does not mean the result is moral or legal.

    The question is then are women being treated in ways that justify more protection through legislation.

    Your presentation of the problem as only an agreement between two parties is a simplification that does not illuminate the situation or aid our understanding.

  151. bfm – well, according to Obama and the NYTimes it is quite alright to pay women less than men. And even though Obama signed something, I am not sure those women are getting equal pay now. We know the equal pay thing did not work out at the NYTimes.

  152. DavidM:

    “If both parties agree to the wage, it does not matter what others are paid.”

    Exactly, I once took a job for 20k less than what others were making. I was young and foolish for not looking into the prevailing wage for that position at that company.

    It seems to me as if women want all the benefits without having to extend themselves out of their comfort zone. They seem to expect men to pay them what they think they are worth without having to ask for the money.

    If a man asks me for $20/hour, I am not going to pay him $30 unless he has some special skills I know are more valuable than $20 and I want to keep him happy and content working for my company.

    An employer having to be responsible for making sure all salaries are at parity is BS. What ever happened to being responsible for yourself?

    Next woman who asks me for a job, I am going to ask her what she wants to make, take 30% off the top and see if she has the stones to say no, I am worth what I asked for. If she doesnt, then I will have her sign an employment contract stating that she understands she is making less than the males with equal qualifications and that she agreed to do so.

  153. ” well, according to Obama and the NYTimes it is quite alright to pay women less than men”

    So now your are accepting Obama as an authority? Do tell us about your epiphany.

  154. BigFatMike wrote: “As a society we have already decided that you do not have the right to discriminate against various groups – even if your economic power allows you to exploit the market it that way. You don’t have the right to refuse to hire certain groups.”

    These are relatively modern laws that have been driving our economy into the ground. I certainly do not agree that hiring practices should be along the lines of “blacks need not apply” or “Dominionists or other similar Christians need not apply,” but that is much different from forcing an equal pay scheme upon employers.

    I notice that jobs like waitressing and receptionists still tend to be dominated by women, but that doesn’t meant that men should be creating picket lines and protesting against unfair hiring practices. Likewise, the NFL tends to hire more blacks, should the white athletes protest against that? Should we force the NFL to hire an equal number of blacks and whites to insure fairness? I don’t think so. Let the black and white athletes have equal opportunity to try out of the positions, and if more blacks are able to secure the jobs, fine. I have no problem with that.

    Pushing this type of “Equality” is not the same thing as pushing “Fairness.” As I said previously, fairness is an agreement between two parties that is honored.

    Fairness in hiring is equal opportunity for employment, not equal wages or proper racial and gender diversity in the workforce. Everybody should have a fair shot at the marketplace, to prove themselves, but it should be up to the prospective employee to prove themselves and to negotiate their position in life. If one guy ends up being a billionaire and another guy ends up being destitute and homeless, there is nothing unfair about that if both guys had an equal opportunity to pursue their dreams.

  155. ” Obama is my God and I shall have no other”

    And if you need evidence for that just ask your self does the flower bloom in spring, does the sun rise in the morning.

    BTW, some of the sites are saying the Abramson was making money big time for the Times. I still bet readership was ebbing. But some seem to think the divorce from the Times had to do with the family owners and not performance or management style.

    I only know what I read. But I never though her base salary was very relevant to the discussion. The little I know about the upper reaches of corporate management suggest that the real money is in the performance based bonus and the only way to evaluate compensation is to look at total compensation including base pay, bonuses and any perks like cars, housing and other things that guys like me can only guess at.

    Oh well, sometimes it is nice to see a reality based soap opera play out in real time.

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