John Hagee may be viewed by many as an antisemite, anticatholic, and virulent homophobe, but that did not stop Senator Joe Lieberman from proudly embracing him as a friend and kindred spirit during Hagee’s Christians United for Israel conference.
If you recall, Hagee is so hateful and unhinged that McCain had to refuse his endorsement and association, click here and here..
Lieberman, however, went out of his way to proclaim his close affinity with Hagee. After noting that many people discouraged him from appearing at the event, Lieberman stated “The bond that I feel with Pastor Hagee and each and every one of you is much stronger than that, and so I am proud to stand with you tonight.”
Hagee previously said that God sent the Nazi to persecute the Jews as part of his divine plan.
Fortunately, Hagee’s people did not encourage vomiting testaments of faith at this event as they reportedly do at their religious camps, here. However, many Democrats, still reeling from Lieberman’s campaigning for McCain, may have to fight the sensation.
For the full story, click here.
I have read everyone’s opinion and find most pretty interesting. I am amused however that from the time the original Palestinians settled that area until now EVERY empire that existed has disappeared, from the Egyptian and Byzantine to the British and Soviet. Yet somehow many people think that the US will remain at its current status forever.
I did a little research and more than half of Israel’s per capita income (about $15 000 per Israeli) comes from US welfare – $3 000 000 000 per year. That puts Israel’s PCI at about the same level as Greece or New Zealand, without it, Israel would be at the level of Botswana or Chile. That said, when the US becomes unwilling or more likely unable to support Israel, a lot of people will be looking to “resettle” the Jews so that the Palestinians can go back to where they were living before 1947.
There are about 5.5 million Jews in Israel and 6 million in the US and about 2 million in the rest of the world. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world that don’t like the way the Palestinians have and are being treated. Unfortunately most Christians don’t care about the Christian Palestinians so it will be up to the Muslims to help them too. So there are about 115 Muslims to every Jew. And since Israel has gone out of its way to treat the Palestinians brutally, there won’t be too much compassion when it’s time for the “resettlement”.
So in the meantime, it’s great that Israeli Jews, American Jews and the US Government is wasting BILLIONS of dollars renting Palestine but one day the landlord is going to come with an eviction notice. I just hope I’ll be around to see it.
zakimar, the nation-state of Israel was created not by battle, not by by UN Resolution, but by Israel declaring themself independent.
(I’m not sure who you were talking to in that last comment, but to answer your question, we don’t have to guess about Jesus’ opinions on the present behavior of Israel and the U.S., as it is recorded in the Bible, we just have to look it up. For ex, it’s not in our national security interest to divide Israel’s land–national destruction promised for that!)
Gyges, I’m sorry for not speaking clearly, by “outsider,” I meant those “outside” of the premil dispensationalist Christian Zionist camp (since that’s what I was talking about) of evangelicalism not outside of evangelicalism altogether. What you just said was actually clear from the previous posts.
The most vicious (and they are vicious) perpatrators of the Christian Zionists-want-to-bring-back-Jews-to-usher-in-Armageddon myth tend to be those within evangelicalism who hold to antijudaic forms of theology –i.e., theological antisemites. They are very aggressive in perpetrating this myth, so that when outsiders seek out info on dispensationalists, the first thing they get on a Google search is all this hate propaganda written by non-dispensationalists.
For anyone interested in understanding the different endtimes views within Christendom I recommend Paul Benware’s “Understanding End Times Prophecy: A Comprehensive Approach,” which explains the different approaches but supports the premil dispensationalist view.
If Israel was created by the Jews forcibly displacing the Arabs and everyone seems to be ok with it, that’s great news for the Arabs. As Israel has preemptively attacked Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories and now wants to do the same to Iran, when the US becomes unwilling or unable to help Israel, I’m sure some, if not all of those countries will decide to preemptively attack Israel. And for anyone who has a delusion that Israel would even still exist if not for the US, maybe that delusion will also encompass that the US will be the first empire in history to remain an empire forever.
So I guess when about 400 million pissed of people from North Africa, the Middle East and Iran (hopefully Pakistan too) no longer have the US to worry about, Palestine can finally be created by force, because it’s surly not going to be created any other way. I have a feeling it will happen way before the First Coming for the Jews or the Second Coming for the Christians.
And btw, do you really think that if Jesus were to come back any time soon, he would approve/allow the behavior of Israel or the US to continue?
Cindy,
Having grown up in the church I would hardly call myself an outsider. I should have clarified that I was speaking from my experience in my specific congregation, especially in my first post. People have a tendency to over simplify any group, something I work hard to avoid doing. Thanks for pointing out one of my intellectual blind spots. I’ll also try harder to point out that “Evangelical Christians” don’t all have the same views.
With the understanding that it speaks only my particular church, I stand by my earlier statement. There was a definite undercurrent of supporting Israel to help bring about the second coming. The conflict between this idea and the uncertainty of the timing of the Rapture was always explained as it not giving a specific date, but rather a range of several years.
“it would suggest that when/if the Arabs can ever slaughter/expel enough Jews they should and then they can create Palestine by force.”
Zakimar,
That been the Arab’s idea all along, as so many statements have been uttered through the years, the mindset is uncontestable.
You can deny the existence of Palestine all you want, just as some deny the existence of Israel – it doesn’t make either true. But by your argument, if Israel was merely created by force of the Jews’ military victory, it would suggest that when/if the Arabs can ever slaughter/expel enough Jews they should and then they can create Palestine by force.
“Since both I and M. Spindel can’t both be right: he states that the country of Palestine never existed and that Israel won the country though military victory; I state that Palestine did exist as a country before 1947 and it was divided by the UN with the majority going to the Jews (see UN Resolution 181)”
Zakimar,
To repeat Palestine has never been a country. It was a Roman territory at one point, a territory under Byzanrium at another, and part of the Ottoman Empire at another point in time. Never a nation, never independent and never a distinct people. Cindy is correct, the Arabs rejected UN Resolution 181, so they can hardly accept the part of it that suits them now. People that are now referred to as
“Palestinians” were not called that until after the 1967 war when the Saudis hired a NY PR firm to improve image and try to de-legitimize the Israeli’s in the process. You exhort us to improve our knowledge through thorough research yet you own seems flawed by the predisposition to discover the facts that fit your workd view. If you really don’t understand this simple fact of the past non-existence of a Palestinian State, than it is your research that is faulty. Please ask yourself why nefore the 1967 War the West Bank was Jordanian Territory if this was intended by
Arab interests to be part of the Palestinian State? You show insight into the corruption of many of the despotic Arab states, try a little more insight and understand Israel’s true threat to the Arab nations which is the possibility of being liberated from despotism and Oil colonialism. This would take place when the Arab peoples begin to look at the selfishness and excesses of their own leaders and realize that Israel is a way to distract them from their true enemies.
zakimar, there are some popular misperceptions/errors floating around about that UN Resolution 181 that you cite. First off, Res. 181 on how to divide the land was a General Assembly resolution (nonbinding, just a suggestion) rather than a Security Council resolution (binding). But more importantly it never vested because though Israel agreed to the recommendation (which came complete with dates by which certain things were to take place) , the Arabs not only specifically rejected Res. 181, but they then attacked Israel from all sides!
Now what we have is the Arabs (and other parties) wanting to claim Res. 181 (or at least the part of Res 181 that pertains to Jerusalem, calling for it to be internationalized), though they were the ones who rejected it in the first place! (But this is part of the “Phased Plan” developed by the PLO to take the land by phases.)
The word “Palestine” described a region, not a nation, and many of the groups that used the adjective “Palestinian” (such as the newspaper, the symphony, etc) were comprised of Jews), but the Arabs have successfully appropriated that word now to where it’s primary definition now is accepted as pertaining to them, though that was not the case originally.
Since both I and M. Spindel can’t both be right: he states that the country of Palestine never existed and that Israel won the country though military victory; I state that Palestine did exist as a country before 1947 and it was divided by the UN with the majority going to the Jews (see UN Resolution 181), I would encourage anyone who is interested to check the facts and see for themselves which one of us is the liar.
To make it simple, just Google UN resolution 181, but feel free to expand your knowledge by more thorough research.
Gyges, the “We support Israel because it needs to be a country before the end times can start” concept is the Big Lie when it comes to the outsider’s perception of what we premil dispensationalists (i.e., nearly all of the Christian Zionists) believe. Besides that it makes no sense, it’s exactly *opposite* of what we believe, since we teach the doctrine of “imminence” (that’s the buzzword), i.e., that the Rapture (or snatching away of believers) can happen at any time, that absolutely zero is necessary for this to happen, could happen tomorrow. We also specifically believe that there will only be a partial restoration of Jews to the land (as is the case now) before the Messiah returns some 7 years after the Rapture. The whole myth is akin to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion type lie, in that it’s absurd and not true, yet it will not die.
The above has three especially important dates: 1939; 1947; and 1949. In 1939, Jews brought terrorism to Palestine.
In 1947, the Palestinian Muslims and Christians that made up 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land of PALESTINE was forced into 47% of the land. The remaining 53% was given to European and some North African Jews.
1949, the Jews of Israel annexed another 30% of PALESTINE and expelled approximately 1 100 000 Palestinians.
So I think to say that 600 000 Palestinians “left” Palestine is like saying that a few million Jews left Germany and Poland in the early 1940s.
Zakimar,
Terrorism was around on both sides way before 1939, your 1947 figures are incorrect except in the propaganda you have read. Your 1949 figure is a fantasy. You conveniently forget that Jews were indigenous to the land for all but 300 of the last 3,000 years. The European Jews you speak of were people were expelled from their land and managed to still procreate. We could throw propaganda at eachother, or we could have a dialog. I’m really not interested in the former because for every “fact” you can produce, I could produce one that counters it and vice versa again. The real issue is what’s to be done now, because the Jews aren’t leaving and they can’t be forced into the sea, whether they have US help or not. Peace seems like a good idea to me, but then as the story and this whole thread shows, there are many people who prefer eternal conflict.
Cindy,
Thank you, I was trying to remember the word premillenial. My former brand of Evangelical never especially stressed the Abrahamic Covenant so that was left out of my explanation, although that does make a lot of sense.
I should also mention that nobody actually said “We support Israel because it needs to be a country before the end times can start.” In retrospect it seems to have been an undercurrent to what most of the church’s guest speakers had to say. The subject of Israel always seemed to tie into the prophesy surrounding the Second Coming.
“The Jews should have been given a chunk of Germany or maybe some of Britain or the US – as they were so generous with Palestine.”
Zakimar,
The Jews were not given Israel, they took it. That is the fact of the matter. They took it without real from Great Britain, or the US. Those countries and others were rooting against Israel and denying them arms. The attack on Israel was led by the Arab Legion, which was commanded by a British General. Out numbered and outgunned the Israeli’s prevailed and the attacking countries, unable to acknowledge their defeat blamed it on the US.
Jews had again become occupents of this area from about 300 CE, after a 200 year absence due to being expelled by the Romans, who were the ones who named the area Palestina, as further punishment for Jewish revolutionary activity. Starting in the mid 1800’s many Jews began to emigrate to the land and legally began to develop it.
As the land prospered many Arabs from surrounding areas came to Israel for work. They were also not indigenous. They also begged the indigenous Arabs to stay when their war of independence began. Many chose to leave when told by the attacking Arab states that they should get out of the way, so the Jews would be driven into the sea. Their Arab brethren then chose to leave those Arabs in miserable camps, to be used as propaganda for the agendas of the despotic Arab governments.
You state that Arafat was falsely called Anti-Jewish,(I agree with you on this formulation since the term anti-semitism was coined by Jew haters)however, are you aware that Arafat, born in Egypt, was the nephew of the Grand Mufti of Jeruselem. That uncle spent WWII in Berlin as the honored guest of Adolph Hitler. I don’t think Arafat was brought up to like Jews.
Finally, back to your Zionism=Racism formulation. It is false on many levels. One being that Islam, showing solicitude to the “The People of the Book” and stating that they shall be well treated, nevertheless insists on their not having the same citizenship rights as Muslims. The Jews and Christians should be subservient to their Muslim masters. This is true of every country run under Islamic Law. Is that racism? No, not really because as you know Jews aren’t a race, neither are Muslims, or Arabs for that matter. Secondly, why are Jews racist for wanting a Jewish State, when many in Islam insist that their states are Islamic States? Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran for instance proclaim themselves Islamic States.
You seem to be an intelligent person and show some insight. Free yourself of the propaganda and see that this whole turmoil is the result of greed and fanaticism. The World Powers want oil, the Oil Companies want profit, some beknighted Christians want the end of the world and the coming of Christ. Then too, there are some of Islamic faith who believe that their religion should reign supreme.
You no doubt feel that Israel was won by force of arms and I agree. In this regard though nobody’s hands are clean. The Arab world decries the Crusades and as a Jew I agree. However, what do you think the Moors were doing in Spain until 1492? Were it not for Charles Martel, France may have been under Islamic Rule. In many instances Islam was spread by the sword. Was that okay because they had God on their side?
The ME is what it is. The only solution is the two State solution with all Israeli settlements on the West Bank removed. I believe this not because I think that Israel occupied these territories illegally, since they were being attacked in 1967, but because having the Arab West Bank population under Israeli authority is untenable. Most Israeli’s believe this. It is again the greedy and the fanatics on all sides who prevent this.
The above has three especially important dates: 1939; 1947; and 1949.
In 1939, Jews brought terrorism to Palestine.
In 1947, the Palestinian Muslims and Christians that made up 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land of PALESTINE was forced into 47% of the land. The remaining 53% was given to European and some North African Jews.
1949, the Jews of Israel annexed another 30% of PALESTINE and expelled approximately 1 100 000 Palestinians.
So I think to say that 600 000 Palestinians “left” Palestine is like saying that a few million Jews left Germany and Poland in the early 1940s.
For those that either believe the Zionist propaganda or just want to spread it, a breif history of PALESTINE:
1895
The total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.
1896
Following the appearance of anti-Semitism in Europe, Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism tried to find a political solution for the problem in his book, ‘The Jewish State’. He advocated the creation of a Jewish state in Argentina or Palestine.
1897
The first Zionist Congress was held in Switzerland, which issued the Basle programme on the colonization of Palestine and the establishment of the World Zionist Organization (WZO).
1904
Fourth Zionist Congress decided to establish a national home for Jews in Argentina.
1906
The Zionist congress decided the Jewish homeland should be Palestine.
1914
With the outbreak of World War I, Britain promised the independence of Arab lands under Ottoman rule, including Palestine, in return for Arab support against Turkey which had entered the war on the side of Germany.
1916
Britain and France signed the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned to France, Jordan and Iraq to Britain and Palestine was to be internationalized.
1917
Lord Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary sent a letter to the Zionist leader Lord Rothschild which later became known as “The Balfour declaration”. He stated that Britain would use its best endeavors to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. At that time the population of Palestine was 700,000 of which 574,000 were Muslims, 74,000 were Christian, and 56,000 were Jews.
1919
The Palestinians convened their first National Conference and expressed their opposition to the Balfour Declaration.
1920
The San Remo Conference granted Britain a mandate over Palestine and two years later Palestine was effectively under British administration, and Sir Herbert Samuel, a declared Zionist, was sent as Britain’s first High Commissioner to Palestine.
1922
The Council of the League of Nations issued a Mandate for Palestine. The Mandate was in favor of the establishment for the Jewish people a homeland in Palestine.
1936
The Palestinians held a six-month General Strike to protest against the confiscation of land and Jewish immigration.
1939
The British government published a new White Paper restricting Jewish immigration and offering independence for Palestine within ten years. This was rejected by the Zionists, who then organized terrorist groups and launched a bloody campaign against the British and the Palestinians. The aim was to drive them both out of Palestine and to pave the way for the establishment of the Zionist state.
1947
The United Nations approved the partition under which the Palestinian Arabs, who accounted for 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land, were allocated 47% of the country. (UN resolution 181)
1948
British forces withdrew from Palestine in May and the Zionists proclaimed the state of Israel without defining its borders. Arab armies moved to defend the Palestinians.
1949
A cease fire was finally agreed. The Zionists controlled 77% of Palestinian land and over 1 million Palestinians were forced to leave their country. The West Bank was put under Jordanian control and the Gaza Strip under Egyptian control.