Eight Police Officers Fire 103 Times At Two Unarmed Women Delivering Newspapers . . . Commission Rejects Calls For Any Officer To Be Fired Or Even Suspended

Lapd_badge220px-Christopher-jordan-dorner.nWe recently discussed the decision by the Los Angeles district attorney not to charge officers who shot up a vehicle of an innocent man because they were acting in “an atmosphere of fear and extreme anticipation.”Officers were on edge in the search for cop-killer Christopher Dorner (right). We now have a decision in the shooting that proceeded the McGee case where eight Los Angeles police officers fired over 100 times. Margie Carranza, then 47, was cut by flying glass while her then 71-year-old mother, Emma Hernandez was shot in the back. You guessed it. No one will be fired or even suspended.

Let’s recap what these officers did and will now only be required to take a little more training. Police were searching for Dorner. Two women happened by the police delivering newspapers in a blue Toyota Tacoma pickup truck. (Dorner was driving a charcoal Nissan Titan pickup truck). Without clear identification and without any appearance of a weapon, the police fired 103 times at the truck.

lapd-two-women-shot-1.pngA Commission has now completed its investigation of the officers and found that the officers were not at serious fault in trying to kill two innocent unarmed women and unleashing a wall of lead on a vehicle.

The Commission found that the officers did find that eight officers violated Los Angeles Police Department policy. However, a violation that results in gunning down an innocent elderly lady does not appear to be a firing or even suspending act of misconduct.

Chief Charlie Beck insisted that this shooting was simply the result of “a tragic cascade of circumstances that led to an inaccurate conclusion by the officers.”

Of course, these women were hit by 103 “inaccurate conclusions.” Both could easily have been killed but that would not have changed the result.

The decisions in these two investigations will only reaffirm view of many that police are beyond increasingly beyond accountability while police powers are on the rise in our society. I find these decisions to be perfectly otherworldly. Both opinions tend to justify the actions on the basis for the fear and anticipation that existed at the time. However, police are supposed to be professionals trained to deal with such pressure. It is also worth noting that, if this were Dorner in the truck, it would have been highly questionable as a justified shooting since no weapon was present or shown to the officers. None of that seems to matter. It leaves a chilling message that police are at greater liberty to use lethal force (without positive identification or appearance of a weapon) when searching for a cop killer.

It is also worth noting that citizens are regularly charged when they shoot at officers by mistake under the same chaotic circumstances. They have also been cleared in shooting citizens who appear with a weapon in response to commotion. In the meantime, we have seen officers cleared and even honored in mistaken raids or shootings (here and here and here and here and here and here).

The increasing police powers in the United States and the absence of serious deterrent over misconduct or mistakes by some officers makes for a deadly combination. What is fascinating is the relative timidity of citizens in the face of even the most egregious abuse as we discussed recently with regard to New Mexico police officers. Likewise, there was no outcry recently with the incredible decision by the Dallas Police Chief that officers will no longer be allowed to give their accounts of shootings for the first 48 hours after officers were found to have lied in past cases. They will now be allowed to get their accounts straight before going on the record.

The final conclusions from the Dorner investigations sends a message to officers and citizens alike that even the most outrageous and potentially lethal misconduct by officers can be forgiven.

94 thoughts on “Eight Police Officers Fire 103 Times At Two Unarmed Women Delivering Newspapers . . . Commission Rejects Calls For Any Officer To Be Fired Or Even Suspended

  1. Ok, I’m game what’s the catch…. Because some officers still had bullets left if the clip…. Maybe the ones that emptied their clips should be given raises……

  2. The police are out of control and the Police Commission just gave them a license to shoot at anything or anyone, at any time! Can we at least discipline them for poor accuracy?

  3. That is outrageous that those cops are not being prosecuted. Maybe the US attorney in LA can bring charges against them as the US attorney in San Antonio did against two BP officers, Ramos and Compean who shot at an armed drug smuggler who fought with Compean, and was running away. They only wounded him in the butt, and he kept on running and got away over the Rio Grande. They were convicted and not only lost their jobs, but went to prison and are still convicted felons.

    The judicial system is more broken than the immigration system.

  4. I suspect that government has always been like this, to some degree, except that prior to the internet, it was less likely to be made public, as those in the main stream media have always been kept on leashes.

    Can you imagine the level of corruption, during prohibition or how Joe Kennedy paid off various entities. Hit’s put on competitors, etc.

    I keep saying that it is illogical to expect a system that utilized the legalization of the initiation of force, to effect an ethical and civil society. This is just one of a million examples.

  5. We have a police state because Americans of all political stripes are authoritarians. Not only do they tolerate the abuse of power, they vote for it – regardless of political persuasion – over and over and over again.

    Whether is it massive surveillance, bailouts of billionaires or wars of choice based on lies, Americans don’t really seem to mind too much. In fact, most of them deify the thugs they vote for to run the government and refuse to hold them accountable.

  6. SOP. Drones killing wedding parties and war dept simply offers an apology of sorts. ‘Justice Dept’ goes about jailing potheads for 20 years while releasing financial criminals at HSBC who are then rewarded with millions in bonuses. NSA Clapper lies to Congress and gets a pat on the back, while Edward Snowden is threatened with death for telling the truth. Police can act like drunken cowboys in a John Wayne movie and shoot up everything and anyone in sight and are given cover by kangaroo courts, but cops (and politicians) treat OWS protestors like criminals for using Constitutionally protected free speech. What’s right is wrong and what’s wrong is right. Welcome to Bizarroworld….

  7. How very professional.

    Such highly trained/supervised “officers” that shoot first and ask no questions later like the timid/frightened cretins they are.

    LAPD chief Charlie Beck is a joke.

  8. Unfortunately citizens are now the enemy. Police officers are trained, yes I said trained, to protect themselves first and ask questions later.

  9. The local news did a story last night. This is the anniversary of the Dorner saga. It is also the end of the Bob Filner nightmare. San Diegans elected a new, MODERATE mayor who soundly defeated a public union, Filner errand boy. The Dems elected the first mayor in decades w/ Filner and boy did he screw the pooch. Only 1 Republican mayor in the Top 10 US cities. Falcouner got endorsements from Dems. He’s also our councilman so that’s ALWAYS good.

    LA is IMO, in the top 3 corrupt police dept. in the country along w/ NYC and Chicago.

  10. Cops are the most dangerous people you will come across in your daily life. Protect yourself, friends, and even strangers by ALWAYS recording the police.

    I have seen more than one person (unknown to the videographer) exonerated by a video camera being pointed in their direction at the right time.

  11. Funny you should mention the police corruption in the LAPD, Nick. I just finished a book by a former LAPD officer called ‘LA Secret Police: Inside the LAPD Elite Spy Division’ by Mike Rothmiller. It’s well worth the read if you want to get into the ‘mind’ (and I use the term loosely) of the LA cop. Although Mr. Rothmiller served under Daryl Gates (he of the Rodney King beating) it’s a good index of the way things are done in the LAPD and why incidents like this happen.

  12. We live in a police state – it just hasn’t formally declared itself yet. And I say this as supporter of law enforcement, having been a career prosecutor who spent almost 25 years as a federal prosecutor after having been an assistant D.A. Our police need to be reined in nationwide.

  13. another reason not to trust cops or the law. the law is only to destroy and ruin the middle class. the true criminals run free to destroy and leach off of society …. regardless of their economic level

  14. Once again, the scandal is what is legal.

    The other scandal is that we supposedly train and arm these people, yet they not only don’t know when to shoot, but cannot shoot their target. This is no small matter: cross fire and ricochets are dangerous.

  15. SJE,

    See Tennessee v Garner….. Worked on a project for the civil rights commission…. My conclusion after surveying requirments for training officers and shooting accuracy requirments for officers to carry…. Was that it’s a human rights violation rather than racial issue….. Just an FYI I know of a person that got in a shoot out while driving with the ATF, DEA and other multiple LEO and Agencies… More than a 1000 rounds were fired and no one got hit….. It was a high speed chase late in a major city that thankfully had little traffic that night….

  16. This has probably been going on for a very long time, but we only really hear about it now. My cure for this ill is an idea I’ve had for about 10 years – Citizen Review Boards. Constituted much like Grand Juries, they would be created in jurisdictions and be open for any citizen, at any time, to submit a claim of corruption or incompetence about any employee of government. If the jury rules unanimously in favor of the complaint, then an entirely outside agency is given special prosecutor powers to investigate and, if necessary, charge the offending government employee. It still wouldn’t be perfect, but if all employees of government know that at any time they can be brought up on charges on the denunciation of just one citizen, they might be more careful.

  17. An earlier article:



    The city ultimately reached a $4.2 million settlement with the women last April in addition to a $40,000 settlement for the loss of their pickup truck.

    While the Police Commission panel initially recommended the officers be cleared of wrongdoing, Beck overruled the findings.

    However, by Monday afternoon, the commission announced its official conclusion that the eight officers had violated policy, the Associated Press reported.

    “I certainly empathize and understand the conditions and circumstances that led to this particular officer-involved shooting. I hold our police officers to the highest standards,” Beck said at the subsequent press conference Tuesday.

    KCAL9′s Randy Paige reports the chief said he could not go into detail on the nature of the discipline.

    The panel did uphold the actions of two other officers who exchanged fire with Dorner earlier the same morning while they were on a protective detail in Corona. One of the officers suffered a graze wound to the head, and the other was sprayed with shattered glass.

    KNX 1070′s Claudia Peschiutta reports attorney Glen Jonas, who represents Carranza and Hernandez, expressed shock at the panel’s initial conclusion.

    “You have two small Hispanic women as opposed to one large black man that you’re looking for,” Jonas said. “How can you say that it’s within policy to put 102 bullet holes in that truck and approximately 30 to 40 bullet holes in the neighboring garages, windows, and houses?”


  18. Many of us old enough to remember recall the Bloody Sunday march in Selma, AL on March 7, 1965. Peaceful demonstrators were being beaten by Police. The action by the Police could attributed to the Red Neck attitudes of the Deep South.

    Then we saw the Police beating peaceful demonstrators in Chicago during the 1968 Democratic Convention. Four people are shot dead by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State on May 4th 1970.

    Back when I was in Army in Vietnam we had recon by fire in a combat zone. Today, our para-military police has brought Recon by Fire into the streets of America.

  19. M. Noonan – your starting to think outside the box; good for you. I have been proposing something similar for the judiciary, at the appellate level. Most however are unwilling to buck the system, especially those that have the most to loose and sadly, they are the ones who we need the most, such as attorneys, Law and Constitutional professors, retired Judges, economists, etc.

  20. Kraaken, Thanks for the book recommendation. I will kindle it. The next book on my list is White Bread: A Social History of Store Bread. It sounds silly but sliced white bread in quintessentially USA.

  21. I can certainly see the officers having a high level of alert, considering they were guarding someone Dorner was feared to want to assassinate and a similar truck as Dorner’s pulls into the place. If they drew their pistols I could see that as being a precaution given the danger Dorner made but I disagree with the conclusion the officers should go unpunished. They still had an obligation to make certain who it was they were shooting at and if there was a real threat, which there wasn’t in this case at all.

    It often happens when several officers are in a situation such as this as soon as one fires all of them start firing and it can get into a feedback loop. Yes there is training to avoid this, but it does happen and it is not always right, it happens in the military as well. That is why “cease fire” is yelled out to stop this. The more amped up the officers are the more this happens. And this sounds macabre but I can’t explain it any other way. Firing a hundred times, nearly a magazine for each officer, and only one hit? Unless it was suppressive fire for an active shooter it sounds more like a panic than anything. Panic of the officers was what I think lead to this outcome. I don’t agree with the commission report given the facts available to me.

    I don’t quite agree with the statement that even if it was Dorner in the pickup truck the officers would not have been justified in shooting him if the situation was exactly the same but without the newspaper people and Dorner instead. If Dorner pulled up and made ANY furative movement or repeatedly did not show his hands I would have considered that a justified shooting, that is if he was 100% identified and such. But that would have to be after some reasonable, even if rapid, decisions were made that there was not a situation where they just opened up on any vehicle and luckily for them Dorner was inside. But given the extreme lethality he presented, he wasn’t a “run of the mill” dangerous person. But some precautions need to be maintained.

  22. The decisions in these two investigations will only reaffirm view of many that police are beyond increasingly beyond accountability while police powers are on the rise in our society. I find these decisions to be perfectly otherworldly.” – JT


    Men are from Mars, Women from Venus, and these cops are straight out of hell.

  23. Having been banned from the orange realm; I’m unable to re-post this there and discuss. It sucks in this case. In the Kelly Thomas case and the Zimmerman’s case. Where justice, common sense and decency gets turned on its head.

    The by-product of a money, power and might makes right mentality.

    Our true world!

  24. Kraaken,

    If I’m not mistaken, you may have mentioned the Rothmiller book a couple of months ago? Having read it, based on the recommendation, I give it a second nod. Thanks.

  25. 103 rounds and the police scored a single hit! Bravo! Sounds like the safest place to be is in the bullseye with these clowns.

  26. If the women had been black, Eric Holder would have been on the case charging a violation of civil rights. On the other hand, if the women had been black, the Los Angeles police and DA would already have these pocie officers hung. No need, then, for Holder.

  27. This is a prime example of the institutional cowardice of the police. They were in a complete pant wetting panic by the fact that Dorner was on the loose, that they exercised no judgement at all, they just shot up the countryside. When they did corner Dorner, the cowards burned him to death, a standard police tactic when there might be some danger.

    Frankly, I feel safer around the criminals.

  28. Its probably worth noting that exactly the same legal standards govern the use of deadly force by a police officer as by a civilian — the reasonable defense of self or another from the use of deadly force or serious bodily harm. The police have no special authority to use deadly force. The Supreme Court has specifically held that the police have no general authority to use deadly force to apprehend a fleeing felon, absent some reasonable belief the fleeing individual poses a risk to life or limb; the same standard that governs a civilian’s use of deadly force.

  29. Dorner was murdered for attempting to expose LAPD New World Order agenda. Just go to youtube and search “LAX mannequin” to see how they hoaxed the airport shooting just like they did in Boston. 100% busted! Teamwakemup has fully exposed the Sandy Hook hoax beyond any shadow of a doubt and then some.
    They are coming for our guns because they want to make us slaves not because they care about our safety. Anyone who watches the controlled demolition of WTC7 that was not hit by a plane should know I am telling the truth let alone the stuff they admit like torture and murdering of Americans without a trial or any evidence at all. We are no longer a free country but rather a Dictatorship with all of Hitlers darkest fantasies comeing true right in front of our face.

  30. Dont forget about all the dogs (family members) that police shoot regularly because the dogs are barking at them- like the recent incident in idaho (yeah that same idaho where ruby ridge occurred-that similarly started right after the fbi shot a dog) that was caught on police cruiser dash cam

  31. Unionized government employees are left unaccountable and are impossible to fire because of their incestuous relationship with democrat politicians. Government employee unions must be outright banned for the good of the public!

  32. here’s your answer to all your questions… especially for those of you who never had a chance to read the christopher dorner manifesto


    In 8/07 I reported an officer (Ofcr. Teresa Evans/now a Sergeant), for kicking a suspect (excessive force) during a Use of Force while I was assigned as a patrol officer at LAPD’s Harbor Division. While cuffing the suspect, (Christopher Gettler), Evans kicked the suspect twice in the chest and once in the face. The kick to the face left a visible injury on the left cheek below the eye. Unfortunately after reporting it to supervisors and investigated by PSB (internal affairs investigator Det. Villanueva/Gallegos), nothing was done. I had broken their supposed “Blue Line”.

    Unfortunately, It’s not JUST US, it’s JUSTICE!!! In fact, 10 months later on 6/25/08, after already successfully completing probation, acquiring a basic Post Certificate, and Intermediate Post Certificate, I was relieved of duty by the LAPD while assigned to patrol at Southwest division. It is clear as day that the department retaliated toward me for reporting Evans for kicking Mr. Christopher Gettler. The department stated that I had lied and made up the report that Evans had kicked the suspect.

    I later went to a Board of Rights (department hearing for decision of continued employment) from 10/08 to 1/09. During this BOR hearing a video was played for the BOR panel where Christopher Gettler stated that he was indeed kicked by Officer Evans (video sent to multiple news agencies). In addition to Christopher Gettler stating he was kicked, his father Richard Gettler, also stated that his son had stated he was kicked by an officer when he was arrested after being released from custody. This was all presented for the department at the BOR hearing. They still found me guilty and terminated me.


  33. Promiscuouswriter – I once, back in the early 1990s, did a four month long search for government corruption using the local paper, the Wall Street Journal and USA Today. Not one single day went by without a least one article on either an investigation, indictment or conviction. Just think if you took every single newspaper, as well as what the alternative media is uncovering and put a list together, The internet is changes our lives. Now, what do we do when we, for the first time have enough evidence to show without a doubt, that government, as those from the Austrian School of economics have been saying for 250 years, is the problem and not the solution. We much legalize the “Initiation of Force”; it’s for the public good?

  34. Madness Kills – This has already been attempted and the powers at be got very angry and made the lives of those who attempted to set up various alterative count systems, miserable. I would not recommend that. We must be stealthy.

  35. Missed 102 times. Maybe they don’t have what it take to be cops if they can’t control themselves well enough to shoot straight after they fail to determine these women were not a threat

  36. Under high stress, the first thing that goes is your fine motor skills. Snipers are taught to overcome this so they can hit a specific target. Beat cops do not get much practice. Interestingly enough, during the Civil War the number of bullets to wounding or killings was about 100:1. About the same here.

  37. It’s not true that these officers suffered no consequences. I understand they all had to go to the shooting range and re-qualify.

  38. Shoot up a car, no charges. Grow some cannabis in your backyard, go to jail and have all of your stuff taken away. Does anyone else see a problem here???

  39. hskiprob and laser that isnt my story thats the beginning of the manifesto that got christopher dorner killed and by consequence these 2 ladies shot and the along with the other guy who got shot at and the cops got off….

  40. glue-tipped power tarps and blinding lights are safer projectiles in non-combat zones and small targets like a van or a man, but then the evidence speaks.

  41. I can only guess what color these officers were. That being said, was that additional training they received on the pistol range? They certainly need it!

  42. All that training you would think cops to be a decent shot , maybe start issuing them judge revolver instead of regular handguns . It’s like
    they need a shotgun to hit a wall , crazy .

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