We have been following the rapid decline of free speech rights in Europe and Canada. Germany has long been the subject of criticism from the free speech movement. The country has long criminalized speech dealing with World War II and the Nazis. While the real benefit of those laws has been questioned given the long existence of a neo-Nazi groups in the country, prosecutors continue to bring troubling charges against those who voice unpopular or obnoxious beliefs in prohibited areas. The latest is Ursula Haverbeck, an 87-year-old German Neo-Nazi grandmother who has been sentenced to 10 months in prison after being found guilty of denying the Holocaust. She does not believe that the Holocaust was real but, rather than leaving the matter to open debate, the Germans are imprisoning her for either not changing her mind or not staying silent about her views.
Haverbeck was charged earlier this year after giving an interview outside the trial of former SS Sgt. Oskar Groening claiming Auschwitz wasn’t a death camp. She challenged the presiding judge in Hamburg to prove that Auschwitz was a death camp. However, the judge responded that he said he wouldn’t debate someone who “can’t accept any facts.” Magistrate Bjoern Joensson added “Neither do I have to prove to you the world is round,”That would seem a fine response and the matter should have been closed.
However, the government then proceeded to arrest her. I have little sympathy for Haverbeck who appears and ardent Nazi. However, free speech often requires us to fight for the rights of people who we dislike or even despise.
While I am certainly sympathetic to the Germans in seeking to end the scourge of fascism, I have long been a critic of the German laws prohibiting certain symbols and phrases, I view it as not just a violation of free speech but a futile effort to stamp but extremism by barring certain symbols. Instead, extremists have rallied around an underground culture and embraced symbols that closely resemble those banned by the government. I fail to see how arresting a man for a Hitler ringtone or forcing companies to remove the number “88” from products is achieving a meaningful level of deterrence, even if you ignore the free speech implications. What it does do is given people like Haverbeck the status of victims. It allows Holocaust deniers to argue that the government will not allow people to utter what they claim is the “truth.” History can take care of itself as can free speech. The criminalization of unpopular views only fuels the ignorance and claims of persecution by this small minority.
Judge Joensson said in the most recent case “It is deplorable that this woman, who is still so active given her age, uses her energy to spread such hair-raising nonsense . . . She is a lost cause.” It is nonsense but the government has made it a serious matter by criminalizing views deemed nonsensical. That is more than nonsense it is dangerous. It is free speech that seems the lost cause in Germany.
How old was the judge? The prosecutor? By my math….this girl would be a valid witness to the time. Someone who if she has accounts or knows something first hand shldn’t be discarded. She may be a holocast denier but as recently as a few years ago at asia pacific forum it was reported they were waiting for ww2 vets to croak before “they” rewrote history. A middle age american history. Prof from illinous or oh ohio beefed about this on line.
So what about other lies? Should those who teach that the planet Earth is a little over 6000 years old be convicted?
It is sad that so many just can’t comprehend what Free Speech means. Free Speech must include offensive speech. If you only protect nice flowery speech you don’t need protection.
There are people like me who used to be a member of “THEM”. But we have become enlightened. And some of us, at great risk, now post to advise those who are anti Jew, or who could possibly appear to be such, even if they are just terminally stupid / ignorant such as the person who posted: Even the best of the goyim deserve only death” and “Pantera (Jesus), son of the whore Mary, boils in excrement for eternity.”
which never happened https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110111130016AAPpfiT
that “THEY” watch sites like this. They gather names. And accidents / diseases happen to these people at a rate far higher than chance. Sometimes even to their entire families. Remember, that most of the technology that you use is, to paraphrase Hitler, Jewish technology. The Jews have the back doors.
Draw your own conclusions
And we, of course, hide our identities, or steal the ID’s of others.
There is little doubt that my sister and me, with two Jewish grandparents and the German nationality, would have been murdered if Nazi Germany had won WW2. Against that background I protest this sentence because it is a useless if not vile assertion of power.
Dieter, are you speaking of the title of the thread?
The governments of the world have killed 170,000,000 of their own Citizens in the 20th century alone, excluding another 39,000,000 military personnel killed in war. There is no need to use the race card. Governments do not appear to care what race creed, color or national origin of those who are not part of their clan or tribe or religion. Many other folks were killed by the Germans as well. It is generally a combination of cultural and religious dogma under the hierarchy of the nation state that allows the ruling oligarchy to legalize the oppression of those that do not go along or fit their agenda for power and privilege.
Governments by nature must create conflict by legalizing the usurpation of property rights (taxation) from those that produce to give it to those in the ruling oligarchy, which is the economic foundation of the nation state. You can look at every nation state and you will see the internal conflict between the dominate ethnic or, religious and/or socio-economic classes, and/or business groups, and or labor groups. Even economists fight, generally with words, over whether to be a society that is capitalist, communist or some where in between. The conflict is created by the use of force, legalized by those in political power. The legalization of the war on drugs, the legalization of a military industrial complex, the legalization of a general welfare state through socialistic polices. The legalization of the various alphabet agencies. etc.,etc.
With enactment like these, you can now stack those who go along with you social policies in the positions of political and economic power and silence rebellion. They all require excessive levels of taxation to pay for the programs. It is not that any one policy will bankrupt you society, it’s collectively what happens. In our society we have basically bankrupted the lower 1/2 of our people to be able to pay for defense and social welfare. Basically pretty simple math if you know what numbers go where.
How much money will be spent this election trying to get into positions of political power. If you don’t think people are willing to kill their own citizens to achieve and maintain such power, I have some land just near the Everglades I’d like to sell you. It only underwater when it rains hard.
We can really say that all wars are fought over the power to tax or not to be taxed as in our own revolutionary and civil wars. To me there is only one reason that can be justified for war. Does it improve the protection of property rights or is your nations trying to stop the usurpation of private property rights from an aggressor whether from within or without, what would be deemed self defense. I know no other way in which to determine if a war is just or not. What I do know that 99 percent of the time one government or another is involved. Perhaps the nation state is a necessity, but the costs will always be very high especially to those within the lower socio-economic strata’s. It is my understanding that many of the richer Jews left Germany prior to the war.
hsk, I don’t want that much money spent. I want cuts. But, I want the dog that we have already paid for unleashed. We have a President raised by women who doesn’t know how to fright. When the President of France, a girly man, is tougher than our Prez, well we have a problem! Calling Paris a “setback” was an embarrassment to this country. Obama disgraced his office w/ that press conference.
You might want to consider what Ron Paul has stated many times, in both written and oral commentary. Our imperialistic aggression will invariably come back to haunt us in some way. When your militarily – by physical force enters into the affairs of the people of other sovereign nation states, it is likely to come back and haunt us. We have seen that this does in fact happen time and time again. France is one of the major participants in the imperialism by the west (primarily NATO and UN) during the 20th and now 21st centuries. Brittan for God’s sake, invaded all but about 32 countries in the world during the 20th century. Don’t you feel safer today? “Sarcasm”
We’re playing God in the affairs of other countries. As just one example We choose one side in Afghanistan war against the Soviets, the Taliban, and now they are our enemies? Al Qaeda, a none participant in the WTC bombings, has been the whipping poster boy for the war on terror. The US Governments official report on 9/11 is deemed a joke even by some who were involved in its investigation, much less over 2,000 architects, engineers and scientists. We don’t want to believe these people yet, the global alarmists, who have been falsifying research and data and caught doing it many times, are still being revered as they continue to receive government grants for their continued research. Pay to play mean anything?
It does not appear to me that warfare really ever gains any greater freedom and the “Freedom by Strength” mantra is obviously flawed unless you have a really usual sense of what freedom is. Can you really call us a free nation anymore. We are not even free from our own governments oppression. We have 115 different tax, regulatory fees and fines that has placed 1/3 of our society at or near the poverty line. We have the highest incarceration rates in the world. We have the HS and NSA frisking and scanning us at airports and monitoring our emails. The boarder Patrol frisking us when we immigrate and emigrate on vacation and business. Because of the alleged war on drugs and terror laws, we are no longer secure in our own property and effects. People do not really respect law enforcement, they now fear them. The IRS confiscates property without due process and ignores those who dare question them. Our judiciary is a international joke? Most people do not know this because they do not listen to anything outside of what is presented on the Boob tube and lame stream media. Well over 100,000 factories and businesses in the last 10 years alone have been shut down or force to move to more amenable jurisdictions. Bankruptcies and foreclosures are an everyday occurrence. I can go on and on with this Nick but I do not think you will listen. This is not freedom.
It is guns or butter, we cannot have both. War is a racket and I suggest those that live by the sword will die by it. I don’t want a WWIII and Nick If you get your way, I fear this will happen. I don’t want to unleash the proverbial dog as you say because the consequences will most likely come back to where it is us would will be bitten.
Talk is cheap until it is you being ordered to place yourself in harms way and the ruling oligarchs will assuredly remain in their ivory towers as the poor and middle class die in the trenches.
Nick, I’m butting in but couldn’t resist…. Putin vs Obama
http://www.tomatobubble.com/putin_obama.html
Nick this is from a group of alleged “Jews against Zionist Jews” YouTube website. I didn’t write it.
“If you thought that, this is the first time that U.S. and UK corporate regimes are using their so-called Islamist terrorists, mercenaries against other nations, like Syria and Iraq today, you are mistaken!
57 Years Ago: U.S. and Britain Approved Use of Islamic Extremists to Topple Syrian Government
Posted on November 16, 2015 by BIOMORPHIC
Have the U.S. and Its Allies Intentionally Balkanized Syria Into Smaller Regions?
BBC reports that – in 1957 – the British and American leaders approved the use of Islamic extremists and false flag attacks to topple the Syrian government:
Nearly 50 years before the war in Iraq, Britain and America sought a secretive “regime change” in another Arab country… by planning the invasion of Syria and the assassination of leading figures.
Newly discovered documents show how in 1957 [former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom] Harold Macmillan and President Dwight Eisenhowerapproved a CIA-MI6 plan to stage fake border incidents as an excuse for an invasion by Syria’s pro-western neighbours, and then to “eliminate” the most influential triumvirate in Damascus.”
hskiprob, “57 Years Ago: U.S. and Britain Approved Use of Islamic Extremists to Topple Syrian Government.”
General Wesley Clark tells of how Middle East destabilization was planned as far back as 1991. The US will attack 7 countries in 5 years
Paul, The airport in Milwaukee is named Billy Mitchell Field. He is from a prominent Milwaukee family. I think Obama needs a Billy Mitchell right now to tell him he is neglecting this country’s defense.
Nick Spinelli. $600,400,000,000 annually, more then the next 11 largest military spenders combined is not enough for the war mongers?
Nick – I am sure that if Billy Mitchell were to tell Obama he was screwing up, Mitchell would just be court-martialed again.
Butler seems to be in the Billy Mitchell model.
Off topic?
Paul C. I’m not sure what to make of the copyright dispute over Anne Franks diary. Of course I read the book growing up and all my life never doubted the authenticity of it, or of the official Hitler WWII story.
What’s taught in school as “History” you learn later is more “Politics”. I don’t think a war has ever been fought for truly “moral” reasons. You’ve no doubt seen this video?
Friends? I know my friends. I don’t need to publicly post my email address inc order to find another BFF.
Frankly, franky, I await an invite to your cabal. You’re always looking for a new friend. Things go so much better for you when you get rid of any annoyance.
What does it matter what anyone says? Politicians – and they are all of them human refuse, waiting to be carted away- make a profession of lying. To describe a remark as: ‘hate speech’, or a a criminal act as a: ‘hate crime’, is to assume that one knew what someone was thinking before he made the remark, or committed the crime. How moronic! Moreover, particular groups who believe themselves to be victims of prejudice, ought perhaps to look in the mirror. After all, stereotypes are based on fact.
Governments do not wish to protect imaginary: ‘victims’ of prejudice, but only to use the pretence of concern to impose additional forms of social control.
Bobby is looking for a friend. They’re all gone, Bobby! And, your FFS buddies imploded their blog as well. LOL!
Barkin
No prob. Just so Obama doesn’t consult with some Wisconsin ‘historian’ to see if he can invoke Marshall (hahahahaha) law.
That artFayhead Rudy Guiliani was just on Fox News castigating Obama for the Paris attacks. Rudy says we needed to keep all the troops on the ground in Iraq and need to invade and control the entire muddle east. This event for France, and perhaps America, is akin to the Reichstag Fire. Rudy says we do not need a Declaration of War. I would submit that we have not had a Declaration of War since December 8, 1941– a day which will live in infamy. We have had some wars though. Police actions I guess. Don’t ask me I don’t give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam.
So if the old dog was in America and said that Gitmo was perhaps a “concentration camp” where no detainee, or few, were afforded “trials” and not a “death camp”, would she be wrong? Would she be vilified?
Is Gitmo a “death camp”? Sons and daughters of the present day jailers there would appreciate the right to defend their moms and dads in the decades to come.
I have to say that I agree with randyjet on this one. Just imagine if holocaust denial was legal in Germany and it was OK to walk around in public with your right arm held out saying “heil hitler”. People here have had enough of that rubbish. They don’t want to see or hear it. And if that forces neo nazis underground, it is only fitting because that’s where we put rubbish. Also, “nazi oma” makes her sound sort of cute, doesn’t it? Read up on her. She’s a witch who shouldn’t be afforded any courtesies or respect because of her age.
Bobmetz is an old timer w/ a new alias. But, I must say, the last 16 days have been the most civil in the last several years. This Bobmetz old timer is just a court jester, so far harmless and not destructive. Just a mosquito buzzing in your ear when you’re trying to sleep.
Thank you, Barkin.
Now if only there was someone who could tell them them the correct usage of ‘rein’ and ‘reign’ we would all be a lot smarter.
Bobmetz – you just have to remember to rein in your reign before it rains on your parade. Does that help?