Even in our crime infested world, there is occasionally a crime that takes your breath away. In Sweden, this guy took that distinction when he combined the pickpocketing of an elderly woman and an assault on another woman with children who tried to help her. He punched the mother in front of her children and spat on her.
The crime occurred in Stockholm and the police released the video below to help find this guy.
The video is from the Gamla Stan tube station in central Stockholm, Sweden, was caught on CCTV and shows the man creeping up behind a women described as a pensioner who was trying to get her phone out of her bag. When the mother intervenes, he assaults her and then spits on her in front of the children. While one can hardly expect decency from criminals as a whole, I can say as a long criminal defense attorney that many criminals would not sink this low. I expect the Swedish police have made this guy a special project for arrest. Ironically, I would expect that he would have an equally hostile reception in jail from the other inmates.
One report indicates that they may have already arrested the suspect.
PO
Regardless of the quagmire you may have developed to substantiate your beliefs, I don’t believe in any authority of the koran, bible, torah, or any other so called divine texts used by mankind to control itself. I understand their sources, raison d’etres, and attractions both for the manipulated as well as the manipulator. So your pearls are being cast before this swine.
What is factual is that all holy books have been used for good and evil. I believe that good and evil are mankind’s to understand, mankind’s responsibility and leading to mankind’s freedom and salvation, as good and evil are manifestations of mankind and mankind only. I don’t believe that some god and its messengers, offspring, or whatever are involved in all this, life. Absolutely everything revered as sacred has been determined so for specific purposes by mankind. History illustrates in detail the evolution of everything found in the sacred texts, from the earliest mentions through the fine tuning, to today.
I don’t respect the religion. I respect the religious person, non religious person, or just person as long as they do good and avoid bad. I see paradise for mankind in its coming face to face with itself, not some external entity. You can escape reality but you cannot escape yourself.
Isaac, I do not have an issue with any of that. You have the same right to non-belief than I have to faith. The difference between us is that I do not judge you for being atheist. You are who are, I am who I am, different, not unequal.
To say that religion is obsolete and non-divine is a non-scientific fact, spurred by ignorance and ahistory, when the facts are that religion has been the main driver of societal stability and development for all of humanity.
My point however was, all along, that you keep making statements about Islam/the quran that simply are not true. And considering you have been making them for a long time, it is necessary to solve that issue right now so that we don’t keep engaging in the same quagmire of show me where it says so.
You may refute my arguments arbitrarily, but you cannot refute them logically. They still stand, and I’d really appreciate that since you cannot substantiate your claims in context, that you stop making them.
You can obviously keep talking about Muslims and Islam, but to tie what they do to a religious justification afforded by the quran is not only erroneous but would be deceptive here on.
Muslim (19:4321-4323) – Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: “They are of them (meaning the enemy).”
Read more at http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/proof-islam-evil-violent-intolerant-straight-koran/#UpA85kv7AtwLmJXR.99
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, “Kill any Jew who falls under your power.” Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad’s men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Read more at http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/proof-islam-evil-violent-intolerant-straight-koran/#UpA85kv7AtwLmJXR.99
Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Read more at http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/proof-islam-evil-violent-intolerant-straight-koran/#UpA85kv7AtwLmJXR.99
Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.” According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.
Read more at http://janmorganmedia.com/2014/05/proof-islam-evil-violent-intolerant-straight-koran/#UpA85kv7AtwLmJXR.99
Sounds pretty vile to me. Irrespective of all this nonsense, Islam is continuing to commit atrocities through ISIS, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc, etc, etc. The word is, far too often, if you aren’t a certain type of Muslim or Muslim, you don’t get a pass. History speaks for itself.
Isaac, let us proceed logically and rationally.
What makes up Islam?
Now you have quoted 3 hadith and 1 surah (3 oral reports of things the Prophet reportedly said, and 1 from the quran itself.)
That is a rather problematic thing because one source, the hadith, is uncertain, while the other, the quran, is the actual word of God and therefore infallible. Muslims themselves beleie that any hadith that contradicts the Quran is to be discarded.
While not all Muslims agree on the hadith, their validity, historicity and relevance, all Muslims agree on the Quran.
So if discussing the scope of Islam, one, unavoidably, refers to the quran first and foremost, for that is the only real source of legislation and guidance. For example, stoning has been sourced from the hadith, which does counter the Quran which never, anywhere, offers stoning for anything.
Even your main argument was that the Quran contained “vile performances”, which I disagreed with.
I suggest we separate the issues, we can address those “vile performances”in the quran first and afterwards, if you want, we can discuss the hadith and the actions of Muslims themselves.
Now, let me address the one quranic verse you quoted, and if you remember I took pains to stress IN CONTEXT.
Yes, that verse, on its own sounds very bad. However, if we read the verse(s) before and the one after, we realize that the explanation for and scope of the action is given, AND, the limits and alternative to such action is also stated.
Here is the verse you offered:
“Quran (9:5) – “So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.”
Let’s however take that surah from the top, in context, we see that it makes 3 points:
1. Verses 1-4 says to uphold your treaties with the non believers
2. verse 6 says to give shelter to non combatant polytheists (AND GIVE THEM PROTECTION, EVEN IF THEY STILL DISBELIEVE)
3. verses 7-10 & 13 clearly show that this is against treaty breakers and people who attack you first.
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9:1 [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away – then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
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And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
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How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]
How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
If you want to read more about it, http://discover-the-truth.com/2014/03/04/quran-95-sword-verse/
Po
First of all and last of all the claim that the Koran or any book is divine is, in my mind, ludicrous. Bukowski’s ‘Ham on Rye’ might then be divine, or Celine’s ‘Journey to the End of the Night’. I see religion as manmade and an instrument to answer the ultimate questions as well as to, probably more so, control societies. Initially, something was needed to organize and control people and religion, along with brute force worked the best, initially. Muhammed and his followers are prime examples. All the ‘Onward Christians Soldiers’ are other examples. Disguising the most base of human endeavors as divine does nothing but demean further the fairy tales.
The basis, koran, or whatever it is that Muslims believe includes the most noble as well as the most vile of human performances, both historical and sanctioned for the future. It’s not all that complicated, unless of course one wants to make it complicated. That way there are only a few who can understand and they can dictate to their ignorant masses.
Isaac
1- Your claim that religion is not divine is not sustainable. You cannot prove it, it is solely your belief that there is no God, and that therefore religion is man made.
In that, you and I are exactly at the same point, only I affirm something I feel, you infirm something you don’t feel. But both of our arguments stem from the same point, belief in what our senses tell us.
2- Unless you can provide instances of vile performance in the quran, it challenges your integrity to keep repeating it. As I said previously, I respect your intellect and perspicacity, but when it comes to religion, your bias is blinding you.
You said quran contains vile things, I say it doesn’t, your move is to offer examples of such.
PO
The Islamic religion is based on stuff that includes the most vile human performances as well as the most noble. It is not unlike other religious books. If a Muslim chooses to ignore the vile instructions and instead follows the noble and paths of peace then good for him or her. They should be able to fit in anywhere in the world and those that are offended are the ones who are wanting.
However, a significant percentage of the Islamic faith affords itself the authority under its god to perform, not as humans but as less than animals. Unfortunately it is Islam that carries this burden these days. There may have been times hundreds of years ago when Christians routinely burnt each other at the stake and worse while Islamic societies included any and everyone who would contribute, but even then the bias was in favor of the Muslim. To truly respect ones religion one has to respect the religions of others. I respect any religion that respects the religions of others as well as those like me who find religion in life alone, without the mumbo jumbo.
Racists and bigots are there if you scratch the surface. Unfortunately it is Islam that is doing the scratching and our home grown racists and bigots reveal themselves. Donald Trump is today’s McCarthy. Every era has its enemies. When it comes right down to it, Christianity was not settled out through the influence of another religion. Christianity beat itself into submission and the result was the true religion, mankind, the creator of all religions. Islam will have to go it alone in this respect and govern, edit, and control itself. A good first step would be to advance to today and rewrite the koran and the rest of Islamic history, editing out the nonsense, pedophilia, and other inexcusable parts. There are very few Christians that believe all of the nonsense found in their books and they have rewritten some. Saudi Arabia would be the perfect place to start.
Isaac, your argument would have been true IF the main premise was true, which is the part about “the most vile human performances“.
Again, you are building a whole thesis upon nonexistent facts!
You, not having read the Quran, are making an argument from authority, or from hearsay, for the simple reason that you actually do not know what is in the Quran.
So your argument that some Muslims behave badly is fair as long as you don’t claim that their holy book affords them the religious and moral justification for it. And if they are behaving badly against what their holy book states, then are they to blame or is the religion to blame?
As for censuring the Quran, which part? And wouldn’t rewriting your holy book an acknowledgement that such holy book is not divine after all?
Who would be empowered to rewrite a holy book? When even the US constitution, a human document, won’t be touched?
How could Muslims, who cannot agree on the meaning of many parts of the Quran, agree in rewriting it if they so decided?
Right now, every group, no matter where they rank on the spectrum of litetralism, uses one Quran, how do you think things would go if the SHia have their quran, ISIS has its own, Al Qaeda has its own, the Ahmadiya, the sufi, the wahabi, the salafi… each with its own?
I’ll give anyone odds that the suspect is an off-duty NYPD cop on vacation.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum-worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee-boy-15-arrested-murder.html?ito=social-facebook
Jesus thank you Governor Larry Hogan for blocking these “respectful towards women” Middle Easterners from entering the state of Maryland.
PO
You can cherry pick Islam around the world and find a few bright lights and you can cherry pick Christianity around the world and find a few dark spots. The one thing that is sure is that the preponderance of the world’s backwardness is due to religious and ethnic bigotry and Islam is way, way, way out in front. So, yeah there are faults in the Western nations and anomalies like Indonesia but Islam is a backward religion that demands total submission and those that aren’t submitting are targets. This guy in Sweden might have been a pickpocket caught in the act and behaving uniquely as a Muslim North African. He could have been unjustly accused and behaving as a Muslim North African. This one act has relatively little to do with the problems caused by Islam.
Isaac, you are of those I respect here for your logic. However, when it comes to religion, you have the typical new atheist bias that makes you miss the mark. It is also worse when you discuss Islam because you reveal that you do know enough about it in order to comment intelligently.
Whatever you said above is from hearsay, for if you read the quran, you’d see that whatever you just said is not true. Unless, that is, you are stating that Islam is what Muslim do opposite the Quran? Islam demands total submission? To what? To whom? Anyone other than God? Isn’t the point of all religions, to submit to God?
At some, you have to do the right thing and just read the book. You may still feel the same afterwards but at least you would be speaking on your own.
Saying that Indonesia is the anomaly is no true because we have Turkey, we have Nigeria, we have Senegal, Tunisia, Egypt before SIsi, Bahrain, many central asian countries, morocco…etc…
Even Qatar, Jordan, EUA… the anomaly is actually the religious dictatorship such as Saudi Arabia. Even Iran is repressive but very democratic in many ways.
OFF TOPIC alert. Who here has seen the David Bowie video “Blackstar”? This is COMPLETELY irrelevant to this story but as a public service… This video analyzes one of David Bowie’s “farewell gifts” to humanity; a music video so disturbing you’ll wish you could unwatch it. This video SHOULD be a huge warning to all the top of the heap ‘artists’ who have sold their soul to be where they are because as this and his other parting gifts demonstrate, death ain’t so pretty when you choose the path of darkness in your life.
David Bowie & Rihanna’s Occult Golden Age REVEALED (2016): Dimension of Chaos
issacbasonkavichi
1, January 25, 2016 at 4:39 pm
Indonesia is Islamic first and its democratic structure is dependent on it remaining Islamic. Indonesia may not be as rabid as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and other strict Islamic states but the country is Islamic first and democratic second. In the West, secular democratic structure comes first. This accommodates various religions. The Western nations may not be perfectly secular but their direction is correct. The Islamic states either moderately or in the extreme are religious states. For an idea of one of the last Western peoples who cling to a religious definition, followed by-albeit closely-a democratic structure we have Israel. I would rather be a Muslim in Israel than a Jew in Iran.
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Isaac:
Per wiki, “The Indonesian constitution provides for freedom of religion. The government generally respects religious freedom for the six officially recognized religions: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Confucianism.“, so I disagree with you there.
Also, look up many countries is Europe and latin America, you’d be surprised how many countries around the world have a religious, Catholic identity.
I don’t disagree about what an islamic state is, I disagree about how many fall within that definition. And…don’t we swear on the bible…right here? Isn’t God on our money? Is that secularism? Isn’t the case still made, by elected office holders no less that this country is a christian one?
As for Israel, look it up, we have heard from Iranian Jews who were very happy and proud of being Iranians. Waiting to hear that from a Muslim Israeli, whose marriage is not recognized in Israel and the officials publicly and loudly call for massacring him.
PO
Indonesia is Islamic first and its democratic structure is dependent on it remaining Islamic. Indonesia may not be as rabid as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and other strict Islamic states but the country is Islamic first and democratic second. In the West, secular democratic structure comes first. This accommodates various religions. The Western nations may not be perfectly secular but their direction is correct. The Islamic states either moderately or in the extreme are religious states. For an idea of one of the last Western peoples who cling to a religious definition, followed by-albeit closely-a democratic structure we have Israel. I would rather be a Muslim in Israel than a Jew in Iran.
Isaac:
You claim that his background had nothing to do with it. But that would only be true if his background or beliefs were not causal to his actions.
For instance, if a Muslim robs a bank because he is a lazy thief, his religion has nothing to do with it. If he punches a woman because he came from a country where that was completely OK to beat a woman, then his background is relevant
Disclaimer – I have no idea what his background actually is, and am merely saying that it is relevant to any investigation.
I also disagree with your position that if he was innocent of pickpocketing it would muddy the waters on the charges? How so? He would either be charged with the minor crime of pickpocketing or not. That’s not muddy. And it’s irrelevant to the assault, which is the major charge.
My concern is that you seem to race to the conclusion that his actions had nothing at all whatsoever to do with his background/culture/religion, etc. When you can hardly know at this point. Immigrants from regions infamous for abuses of women would actually be very relevant.
Or he could just be a brunet native Swede guy who’s an A-hole. Don’t limit an investigation or try to undercut immigration concerns when none of us know everything yet.
I’m disagreeing with you on a few points, not ranting. Get me going about the Outlander shutout at the Golden Globes if you want to hear a rant.
Isaac:
“Regardless of the outcome in trial, the guy’s behavior did not eclipse that of a substantial portion of the youth of Sweden. Europe and Sweden in particular has its fair share of disgruntled and rebellious youth. The Nordic types have been doing this well before the ‘immigrants’ showed up.”
I disagree with this line of reasoning. A man who murdered his wife may not use as his defense that strangers murder each other, too, for reasons completely different than his own. It would be false logic to claim that there is no need to form programs, shelters, or task forces to combat domestic abuse because there are completely unrelated assaults that also go on.
You combat crime by dealing with the unique circumstances that cause it.
In one case, poverty, absentee fathers, high crime neighborhoods, economic recession, broken window syndrome, high drug use, and bullying in schools could all be contributing factors that produce a very high rate of juvenile offenders. That would require a specific plan of action completely unrelated to affluenza, Munchausen by Proxy, teenage pregnancy, human trafficking, or any number of other crimes that have nothing to do with the price of eggs.
Yes, there are also completely unrelated other crimes that occur in Sweden. They would require different approaches.
Your approach to prevent honor crimes is different than your attempts to prevent teenage drug use or gangland murders. They have no bearing at all on each other.
Karen
That’s what I said. It’s either attempted robber with assault or assault. Read more carefully and pull in your ‘rant’.