Bizarre, Criminal law, Free Speech, International

Chinese Tourists Arrested For Doing Nazi Salutes In Front Of The Reichstag

480px-ReichstagsbrandWe have previously discussed the German laws barring certain expressions and symbols connected to Nazi Germany.  Germany like much of the West has continued to criminalize speech in a gradual erosion of free speech.  Most recently, the German police arrested two Chinese tourists for making illegal Hitler salutes in front of the Reichstag building that houses the German parliament. It was obviously a joke but in Germany it is a crime.  The problem is that most tourists will not assume that such a picture could be a crime because it is such a senseless denial of free speech.  It is ironic that the arrests would involve Chinese citizens who probably assumed that in the West they could enjoy free speech.

While I am certainly sympathetic to the Germans in seeking to end the scourge of fascism, I have long been a critic of the German laws prohibiting certain symbols and phrases, I view it as not just a violation of free speech but a futile effort to stamp but extremism by barring certain symbols. Instead, extremists have rallied around an underground culture and embraced symbols that closely resemble those banned by the government. I fail to see how arresting a man for a Hitler ringtone is achieving a meaningful level of deterrence, even if you ignore the free speech implications.

In this case, the  two men, aged 36 and 49, were taking pictures posing in front of the symbol from the rise of Nazi Germany.  The building was burned on February 27, 1933 after Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor of Germany.  The incident was used to blame the communists and help the Nazis take control.

They now face charges for “using symbols of illegal organizations.” They were released after posting bail of €500 each.

I do not believe for a second that these cases actually succeed in deterring extremism any more than the arrest for the ring tone did so.  Neo-Nazis have continued to flourish in Germany. They simply change their symbols and work below the radar screen.  Attempts to criminalize speech have never succeeded in deterring dangerous thoughts.  What they do succeed in doing is fuel greater and greater criminalization as groups demand greater protections from hateful or degrading or harmful speech.

 

56 thoughts on “Chinese Tourists Arrested For Doing Nazi Salutes In Front Of The Reichstag”

  1. having such arcane laws on the books only feeds tyrants

    when you see what is happening over at Google and youtube on twitter and facebook looks like history is gearing up for a repeat.

  2. Another thread which demonstrates that this is the common room in Bedlam.

    1. David Benson – why are you so concerned with Bedlam? Currently it is state-of-the-art in its third location. They closed down the old location in 1930.

  3. So if I go to the fatherland and do the Bellamy Salute as part of my American tradition am I guilty of violating a law that criminalizes gestures?

    1. Roscoe Coltrane – how close is the Bellamy Salute to the Nazi Salute? And would you be able to demonstrate the difference in a court of law?

  4. I get the whole freedom of speech thing, but still I’m glad that the hitler greeting is verboten in Germany. If it weren’t most tourist attractions here would be taken over by mobs of tourists, nazis or just innocent jokesters, having their pictures taken while holding their right arm up and yelling “Heil ##tler”. No thanks.

  5. Somebody slap those pesky Germans and wake them up. Tell them to throw off the bonds of fascism, feminaziism and dictatorship, including the bias and tyranny of “Affirmative Action Privilege.”

    All people had natural and God-given rights and freedoms before governance came into existence.
    ________________________________________________________________________________

    “I say RIGHTS, for such they have, undoubtedly, antecedent to all earthly government, — Rights, that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws — Rights, derived from the great Legislator of the universe.”

    From John Adams, A dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law, 1765

  6. My parents were visiting relatives in Germany one April several years ago. My mom made a sarcastic joke about it being Hitler’s birthday. The relatives all turned white and went into a tizzy. “Don’t say anything about that man, you never know who’s listening.” No, this was not in STASI-dominated East Germany, but by their reactions you would think that it was.

    1. “No, this was not in STASIS-dominated East Germany,”

      Seriously? You just said that.

      Angela Merkel is a Feminazi who has never had children – she knows nothing of life, she knows only power.

      Angela Merkel has never contributed to the perpetuation of Germany through childbirth.

      Angele Merkel imports Germany’s population while diluting Germany and Germans out of existence.

      Angela Merkel IS a barren-woman East German who was raised, schooled, brainwashed and indoctrinated by communists in East Germany.

      Angela Merkel is a radical with no concept of family – she is not dissimilar to megalomaniac Hillary Clinton who bore only one political baby.

      Angele Merkel has no concept of freedom and the indivdual..

      Angele Merkel only know communistic collectivism, central planning, redistribution of wealth and social engineering.

      Germany and China are communist.

  7. Germany has fascistic policies that regulate self expression to show they are opposed to Fascists who want to regulate self expression.

  8. Sooo, let me see if I get this. Germany fines two chinks for Das Hitlerlerian Salut, because The Holocaust.

    Then, Germany imports a couple of million Muzzies into the country, even though most Muzzies are rabidly anti-Semitic, and in fact, view Hitler in a most favorable light.

    Yeah. It makes sense to me.

    Squeeky Fromm
    Girl Reporter

  9. Pingback: Chinese Tourists Arrested For Doing Nazi Salutes In Front Of The Reichstag — JONATHAN TURLEY – Site Title

  11. Neo-Nazis have continued to flourish in Germany.

    In your imagination, only. The closest thing to a neo-Nazi organization with a popular base in Germany is the ‘National Democratic Party’. which generally receives > 1% of the vote in federal elections, has never placed one member in the federal legislature, and has placed only a scatter in regional legislatures.

  12. Freedom of speech isn’t exactly a sacred notion here in the land of the free and home of the Braves. Try
    questioning any aspect of the Jewish holocaust and you’ll find out real quick.

    1. You’re still walking the streets Bill. You’re irritated because you fancy you’re a person of special insight and people see you for what you really are: a self-aggrandizing clown.

    2. We will soon find out if public condemnation of words describing Israel, are considered a crime even if one doesn’t say “Israel”, but simply groups together the words, ethnic cleansing, white supremacy, segregation, apartheid, and racism — where everyone knows what “country” those words describe.

      1. They’re not considered a crime ‘doglover’. It’s just that people who talk that way expose themselves as malicious fools.

  13. This is the problem with ‘free speech’. It is not free, never has been, never will be. Our freedoms rest on our responsibility to not only guard them but apply them properly. This is where the ‘yelling fire in a crowded theatre’ and defamation issues come into play. Given the crimes committed under the banners that included the Nazi salute, perhaps in Germany this sort of behavior is tantamount to yelling fire in a crowded theatre. There is the defending to the death, our most cherished freedoms and then there is the perverting of them. The same society that created these freedoms must guard them in all ways. If any foreigner was to defame China in a similar fashion, in China, they would be locked up, fined, and then booted. At the very least the fines are appropriate for the stupidity of the tourists. The upside is that fewer idiots will be wandering around Germany pulling these stupid stunts. Right here in the good old free US of A, we have lots of stuff that is verboten. Now, let’s call a spade a spade.

    1. issac – well written. I just re-watched ‘Olympia’ before I left on vacation and I still found those Nazi salutes when the Nazi flag was raised very disturbing.

      1. Why thank you Paul

        And, this did not come out of any sacred texts, but a lifelong pursuit of understanding through history and human nature. We, in America, would be well advised to revisit the issues without referring to the doctrine as well as holding the doctrine safe. History has shown one thing if it has shown us anything, we the humans created and continue to create ourselves.

    2. Oh yes. we should always look to China as a model for formulating our policies on civil liberties.

    3. Your Highness, will there be any more EDICTS issued today?

      We are very busy denying so many freedoms our enforcement efforts are overwhelming.

      The “Affirmative Action Privilege” takes a high priority, denying the freedom of those who merit is a 24/7 task.

      Welfare and denying the right to private property by confiscating dollars from earners requires an entire agency, the IRS.

      Forcefully imposing the dictatorship of unfair “Fair Housing” commands and discriminatory “Non-Discrimination” commands is a full-time job for thousands of comrades and political officers.

      Please have mercy on us, Your Eminence.

  14. Germany is still traumatized by the reality of the holocaust. To it’s enormous credit, it has insisted time and again that history not be re-written even in the smallest detail to white out those horrific events; this in an effort to never repeat them.

    Germany remains understandably, if somewhat excessively, vigilant against all manner of fascistic behavior, but particularly instances bearing direct connections to Hitler’s Germany such as the arm gesture of total subordination to Hitler and the Third Reich.

    Given this context, one might be forgiving of breaches of freedom of speech when so directly related to those terrible events of the past.

    Unfortunately in other areas, Germany as with other countries in the West, is indeed increasingly falling short of the worthy goal of fostering and encouraging free speech. We are in a period of such general corruption, that it seems easier to our leaders to make talking about it illegal (initially in subtle ways of course, such as who gets to determine what constitutes “fake news”) – particularly since many of them are hip deep in the benefits of such corruption – than to actually address the problem. And it has become no small problem that can easily be dealt with.

      1. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide links or evidence substantiating the claims of German Holocaust denial laws.

        I’m not saying they don’t exist, Germany is increasingly guilty of economic discrepancies with it’s influence on EU banking and its export policies, but I am unaware of specific laws in Germany denying the existence of the Holocaust.

          1. Links or evidence of some sort would be helpful.

            This site from a quick search suggests the opposite is the case. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-holocaust-denial-a-crime-in-some-countries

            Namely, that Germany makes it a crime to deny the reality of the Holocaust (up to five years in prison) You may have your facts mixed up. According to one of the commentariat, the crime is rarely imposed, but it is on the books and it’s unlikely there would be two mutually exclusive laws in a place as irritatingly efficient as Germany.

            1. brooklin: I meant that it is against the law in Germany to deny that the holocaust took place.

      2. That’s funny Germany has done nothing other than to guarantee the rewriting and the denial of true history with it’s Holocaust denial laws.

        Mark Weber devotee.

        These comment boards seem to be a collecting pool of a miscellany of cranks.

    2. Germany is still traumatized by the reality of the holocaust. T

      No, they’re just being officious jerks.

      In any case, the laws in question are useful for suppressing the sort of dissent the German establishment is truly worried about: opposition to the hag-chancellor / Eurocrat population replacement policy (as well as the ongoing campaign to take issues away from public deliberation, something the legal profession works on the United States).

    3. all manner?

      they are fascist once again, only this time they have different leaders and call it the EU

      they need to sort the whole Holocaust thing out – it’s far from settled.

      Truth is ALWAYS more important than belief

  15. I just got back from Las Vegas and two of our National Parks. They are loaded with visiting Chinese. Americans would have been arrested for doing the same thing. When you travel, you are at the mercy of the laws of that county.

    What the two have going for them is that because of the Great Firewall of China, no one in China will know what they did. 🙂

  16. The German attempts at censorship go way beyond the banning of symbols associated with the Third Reich.

    The police have special units that will try to hunt you down for posting inappropriate tweets. And inappropriate tweets now include criticism of government refugee policy.

    Multiculturalism is Hitler’s posthumous revenge.

    1. “LITTLE DEBBIE IN BIG TROUBLE” resigned within 2 weeks of the Seth Rich assassination and the police department can’t “connect the dots” or find the hit man or the foundation that put out the contract.

      The FBI can investigate President Trump for “NOTHING” but it can’t investigate parties with a “motive” for the Seth Rich assassination.

      Willy, you naughty boy you.

      And the MSM calls Vladimir Putin violent and brutal as they report the polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.

      “IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN HERE,” right?

    1. “Ironic given the Chinese total blackout of Tiananmen Square!”
      ______________________________________________________________________________

      The fascists who rule America with an Iron Fist will not allow Americans to possess the truth.

      Those who abuse freedom of the press with “blackouts,” omissions lies and “fake news” are traitors.

      Drawing and Quartering was the English penalty for high treason from 1250 until 1870.

      Comrade Rosenstein is the “tip of the spear” for the “deep state” despots.

      President Trump is an historical American patriot and hero.

      President Trump is trying to take back America from the fascist, anti-American-sovereignty globalists.

      President Trump’s attempt to “drain the swamp” is a massive and daunting undertaking.

      The ruling class, “deep state,” globalist fascists are savage and cruel.

  19. After all, the constitution of the People’s Republic of China guarantees freedom of speech.

    1. yah and don’t we deserve to know what was on those servers of uber creepster HRC who ran for president? >

      1. Uh, no and this is seriously off topic.

        You completely failed to note the implicit sarcasm of my note. For shame!

          1. You are a pathetic Dem! So sad but do you understand that 42% if not more of independents will not support the Dims? Did the last election teach you nothing?

          2. Autumn, I always enjoy reading your comments. On or off topic, they are always to the point of a more general discussion that runs throughout these threads and posts. And your sincere efforts to bridge divides should be legend.
            -BB

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