When Che Abdul Karim Che Abdul Hamid decided to marry his third wife in Thailand, he chose an 11-year-old girl who was handed over by her Malaysian family. The problem however was that this particular marriage to a child of eleven is that it was not approved by the local Shariah court. Besides being a rubber scrap dealer, Che Abdul Karim is an imam. The girl’s father works for him as poor rubber tappers. His third wife will not attend school now that she is an 11-year-old bride.
Deputy Prime Minister Wan Azizah Wan Ismail declared the marriage was illegal for the same reason — not due to the child bride by the absence of approval from the Islamic Sharia court.
Che Abdul Karim insisted that the marriage was perfectly moral to this child and he was going to wait until she is 16 before consummating the marriage.
The view of the marriage as illegal due only to the absence of proper Islamic certification is a glimpse into the plight of these young girls.
FWIW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59Hj7bp38f8
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
When I think of these thing I think of:
Doesn’t Thailand have a reputation for foreign men going there to have sex with children(probably doesn’t matter the sex of the child). So what are the odds that she gets to have a great life where she makes her own decisions on how she will spend the rest of her life.
Squeaky needs a sugar daddy.
The mean age at first marriage in Malaysia is 25.7 years for women. You’ve picked an odd case which has been disallowed by local authorities to illustrate the ‘plight’ of Malaysian women.
Now for some truth: Real per capita product in Malaysia is similar to what it was in the United States in 1970. The country relies abnormally on extractive industries and has a skewed income distribution, so the situation doesn’t map precisely to what it was in occidental countries at that time. The standard of living of the broad mass of the Malaysian public may be more along the lines of what it was ca. 1957 in the United States. You could call it a high middle income country or a 2d tier affluent country. It’s also growing rapidly, and will likely be a peer of (say) Poland and Portugal within a decade.
The homicide rate is 2.0 per 100,000, 60% lower than that in the United States. The country has a parliamentary political order. A heretofore impregnable political machine has governed the country since 1957, but their electoral position has been eroded and it’s a good wager they’ll be headed to the opposition within a decade.
Men and women who are not family members do not socialize in Malaysia and young couples discovered alone together are compelled to marry. Marriages are arranged and failure rates for first marriages are extraordinary – on the order of 2/3. Matriliny is the order of the day and property is inherited from mother to daughter. Efforts of the British overlords to promote male property ownership and father-to-son transmissions were a pretty comprehensive failure.
This moderately affluent, orderly, and benevolently governed matrilineal society is one you’re calling out for social deficiencies. Get it through your head: they maintain their marriage customs to please them, not to please you.
PS, in spite of the high divorce rate, divorcees are not common in Malaysia. Fewer than 2% of the female population is in a divorced state at any one time.
https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2018/07/01/child-marriage-is-no-happilyeverafter-children-who-get-married-at-a-young-age-tend-to-have-health-co/
“In Malaysia, it is still legal for children below the age of 18 to be married under Islamic and civil laws.
Although under civil law non-Muslims can only marry from the age of 18, non-Muslim girls can marry as early as 16, provided they get the permission of the Chief Minister or Menteri Besar.
For Muslims, the minimum age of marriage is 16 for girls and 18 for boys, but exceptions can be made for girls or boys to marry at a younger age as long as they obtain the Syariah courts’ consent.” (This has bearing on this blog post, as it was the lack of Sharia court consent that was the crux of the problem, not the girl’s tender age of 13 or any lack of her consent.)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274007709_UNVEILING_THE_REALITY_OF_CHILD_MARRIAGE_IN_MALAYSIA_ITS_FACTORS_AND_IMPACTS
“In Malaysia, child marriage is a rare practice. However, census shows that this practise is still exist. From the year 2000 until 2010, the statistic indicates an increasing trend of child marriage practice in Malaysia. Census data in 2000 showed more than 6,800 girls under age of 15 were married and in 2010, the figure had risen to approximately 16,000 girls. One of the main reasons of this practise is due to decentralization of jurisdiction. For Muslims, the Shariah courts can grant the marriage permission.”
Karen, you can get married as early as 13 in New York with the permission of a state superior court judge and as early as 15 with parental permission. I had among my co-workers a woman marred at 15. She retired in 2005.
I oppose child marriage, period.
Right here in the US, there was a girl who was a foreign exchange student, living with a Muslim family I was friends with. She was forced into an arranged marriage to a much older man when she returned home.
Are we not allowed to criticize the support of child brides under Sharia Law because a judge in NY used to be able to allow a 14 year old (not 13) to get married? Bill A5524, which was signed by the governor, ended marriage in NY under the age of 17.
https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2017/a5524/amendment/b
If you dig into law books, there are still cities in which is illegal to have sexual relations in any but the missionary position. Just because there are outdated laws on the books doesn’t mean our culture accepts it, or that they won’t be updated.
There were in 2010 about 500,000 girls in Malaysia between their 13h nd 15th birthday. About 3% were married. The practice is quite atypical.
As was mentioned previously, when men marry children they don’t usually register the union.
However, even if only 3 out of every 100 13 – 15 year old girls are given away against their will to rapists for the rest of their miserable lives, that is too much. Sharia Law supporting child marriage is a problem.
I cannot understand all of the energy people put into arguing against even the criticism of child marriages and the cultures that encourage it. What, don’t enough little girls get raped under this system to matter to you guys? How many would it take?
They might have their marriage customs to please themselves, but we are all free to criticize atrocities such as child marriage.
Averages do not take into account individuals. Should we not combat homicide because, on average, most people are not murdered? Please also note that men who marry children do not typically register their unions, according to the below website, and thus are not included in national averages.
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/tackling-child-marriage-in-malaysia-a-child-rights-activists-perspective/
They might have their marriage customs to please themselves, but we are all free to criticize atrocities such as child marriage.
Karen, not everyone lives in cul-de-sacs in the Kansas City suburbs. The decisions they make are done in the process of navigating their very particular circumstances. Surgical and chemical abortion are atrocities. Marriage contracts between adolescents and middle-aged men are not atrocities, merely adjustments to unhappy circumstances. If they were running a gift shop in Kuala Lumpur, it’s a reasonable wager it wouldn’t happen. They’re not. They are living a great deal closer to subsistence.
Good God. You are defending a system which forces little girls to marry old men. In this system, if a man rapes a girl, her family’s honor will be restored if she is given to him to wife.
If you actually read any of my links, you would have learned that the most common reasons given for child marriage is religious (the Qu’ran supports the practice), and to prevent adolescents from engaging in premarital sex. It’s not to provide access to food.
Although, now that you mention it, temporary marriages, or mu’tah, is a booming business in places like India. Also known as the traveler’s marriage, it is a form of prostitution that was promoted by the Prophet Mohammed. Families sell their daughters to Muslim men, who “marry” them, sleep with them, pay their parents, and then divorce them. And round and round it goes. This is what the Prophet enjoined his followers to do so that they did not commit a sexual sin. Well, either that or they had to conquer a place and take sex slaves. But there were not always villages available to plunder. In that case, they could resort to Mu’tah wives.
Karen, I’m pointing out the obvious. You fancy this girl and her family face the same sort of choices and expectations as you faced or as your daughter might face. She doesn’t. Consumer choice is a characteristic of affluence (among other things). The choices these people make are among the realistic alternatives they face.
One confusion you’re suffering from is this schoolmarmish notion that adults acknowledging a juvenile’s latent womanliness is some sort of crime. Another is that it is categorically wrong for a man of a certain age to desire a woman a great deal younger than is he. Another is that it is categorically wrong for a woman (or her parents) to look upon a man as a producer of economic security. Women look to men as providers, in laws look to sons-in-law as providers, men look at young women as attractive for the obvious reasons, and tweens grow into young adults in just a few years. It doesn’t bloody matter what your feelz on this question are, Karen.
There are a variety of reasons men should generally stick to their own contemporaries (and the 2d wife of this rubber dealer is advancing her own interests in this regard). That counsel of prudence has been disregarded in this case, because people are always making trade-offs.
I’d suggest, Karen, that you quit watching those Kellie Martin movies on the Hallmark Channel, throw away your romance novels, and put away your high school diary. Human relations aren’t structured that way in much of the world, and for reasons you cannot properly condemn.
TSTD:
“You fancy this girl and her family face the same sort of choices and expectations as you faced or as your daughter might face.” Where did I say that?
You seem very ignorant of what goes on in child marriage. I suggest that you look up the various organizations that deal with the aftermath.
Where did I say that?
It’s been latent in every remark you’ve made on this subject.
You seem very ignorant of what goes on in child marriage.
What goes on is what goes on in any marriage of people living close to subsistence.
Karen, though I find some of this behavior outrageous, some cultures that are not misogynistic might have adapted different cultural norms to meet the society’s needs that we may not understand so I wouldn’t make any bold conclusions. I remember decades ago before the Internet hearing about a culture where very old men would marry very young woman. The men would bring them up (as both father and husband) to be members of the society. Being old these men didn’t live that long and a mature widow would then marry another man ‘having already been educated by her first husband’. I wish I could provide the details for that type of arrangement might have been of great benefit to that society at that time.
Presumably Wan Azizah Wan Ismail is aware of his countries laws on marriage, yet he saw reason for further investigation. I’m sure he’s also aware of those statistics, yet strange enough they seem to have had no influence.
The marriage took place in Thailand BTW, wouldn’t Thai laws apply?
I’m sure he’s also aware of those statistics,
No, he likely isn’t.
Sez you.
Oh, and another thing, the whole sex-at-age-11 thing is pretty common in America, in the “community”, that is poor black neighborhoods. If you doubt me, then:
Unlike the 11 year old Malaysian chick, the little black girls don’t get a husband out of the deal.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
“Unlike the 11 year old Malaysian chick, the little black girls don’t get a husband out of the deal.”
This comment is offensive.
It’s hardly offensive, it’s just more honest than you’re comfortable with
Was my comment true? If not, please provide some evidence.
Thank you!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
What a lucky girl, being married to a rich man! People here need to stop thinking like White, European Christians, and get with the whole diversity thing! This girl will now have a stable and secure life style, and children to care for her in her old age.
Besides, now that American women are lezzing out, and killing their unborn babies to beat the band, we need people who think like these Thais and Malaysians to make up for our declining work force!
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
PS: I am NOT being sarcastic about her being lucky.
Squeeky – who is going to take care of you in your old age?
Me.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky – and who is going to visit you?
I don’t care if anybody visits me or not. I will have a guitar, my gun, maybe a cat or two. TV, Internet, and books. Why would I need anything else? I am not a clingy type person. I like being alone. Putting up with other people’s insanity is a bummer.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky – we just had a 92-year-old woman who shot and killed her son for trying force her into asst living.
I read that. Mean old biddy! I bet she was a rolling b*tch thru most of her life. I hope they lock her up where she can’t watch her soaps.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Squeeky – I think she had priorities and they did not include assisted living. 😉
That she killed him for suggesting something practical about her living circumstances tells you why he and the paramour were disinclined to take care of her anymore. It’s a reasonable wager the woman required 24 hour supervision, not readily possible because the man and his paramour are of working age.
We had an eldercare mess in my family. The older son of the woman in question had this to say, “If she were difficult in some novel way, it would be easier”. It’s a reasonable wager her behavior was an elaboration on long-established patterns. She’s due for the assisted living offered in a woman’s prison or the prison system’s asylums.
“She’s due for the assisted living offered in a woman’s prison or the prison system’s asylums.”
I think William Osler said something like this, “though feared by the young, pneumonia is the old person’s friend.”
Paul, the subtext of most of Squeeky’s remarks is that she really isn’t,,, neurotypical.
DSS – Squeeky is the kind of person that makes the world interesting. 😉
The chances you’re going to be in a situation where you can’t anymore are about 40%. Whether you’re clingy or not, you’re going to have to deal with CNA’s changing your Depends.
By that time most of will probably all be living like they do in Venezuela, from hand to mouth. Nursing homes will likely be a distant memory. I expect to be on the family farm, avoiding the Zombie Apocalypse, and will just croak the old fashioned way.
Squeeky Fromm
Girl Reporter
Revered Holy Judeo-Christians: Ancient Holy Pedo God impregnated 12 yr old Holy Adultophile Virgin Mary wed to middle-aged Holy Pedo Joe – DOH!!!
BOSSBitch – Mary was 12-14 by apocryphal accounts when engaged and inseminated by the Holy Spirit. So, we don’t know for sure how old she was. Those same accounts make Joseph 90 years old and they went on to have several children. So, it is hard to say how much truth there is in them.
Trust A.P. Ochrypha not Schulte splitting early pubic hairs, Who cares 12-14, the point is, all age Adultophile maids have always said, “My Mind, My Body, My Choice, My Pedo – Mind Yer own!”
BOSSBitch – you are using the term pedophile incorrectly. Even at 12 the Virgin Mary would be outside the range for pedophiles.
There is extreme resistance to outlawing child brides among the religious clerics, because child brides were allowed in the Qu’ran, the ultimate authority. That does put up some roadblocks to condemning it.
Women will not make appreciable strides towards equality until child marriage is abolished, the culture shifts to accept the moral wrongness of marrying a child, and both girls and boys have access to quality education. In addition, polygamy itself erodes the equality and value of women. It’s kind of hard to claim equal status when they do not have equal rights. For example, a man may take 4 wives but a woman may not take 4 husbands. Instead, she has to be content with a 1/4 of a husband. The man may court other women while married, but the wives must remain chaste. Polygamous marriages have been extensively studied to create a higher rate of misery in women than other unions.
This is so sad.
One of the little talked about consequences of child brides is that their bodies are not physically mature enough for childbirth. Even if the “spouse” waits a few years, they often consummate the marriage before the girls are physically ready. The result can be severe consequences, such as fistulas, which is severe internal damage in which the victim suffers such terrible consequences that she is often shunned by her family or left on the street, if she doesn’t die of sepsis.
Since child marriage are forced upon the child, it is really a type of sexual slavery. She is given to a man, her master, and she may not say no. She may not escape. She’s just stuck for the rest of her life.
Awful. Those poor little girls.
This is one of those examples why I do not believe in moral relativity between cultures. As many people around the world believe, I really do think my own culture is the best chance for fairness and happiness. I am so sorry that so many women and girls suffer around the globe.
Karen, the man’s in a polygamous marriage, which is unusual in Malaysia right there (the number of married men and married women is almost precisely equal). It was one of his other wives who grassed him up.
Whatever actually is going on with this arrangement, we do have an idea of how the man in question is presenting himself. He insists this is a betrothal, and that the girl will continue living with her parents until she reaches the age of 16.
While we’re at it, have you considered two dimensions of this? One, the man is a rubber dealer and her parents are rubber trappers. Malaysia is a fairly modern country and these people are retro and rural. Sixty years ago, you had landowners and sharecroppers in some areas, but it wasn’t a typical way people made a living. The other is that he’s cementing a family relation between himself and the girl’s father, which improves the latter’s standing in the business.
“but it wasn’t a typical way people made a living. ” in the United States.
DSS – I do not understand dealing with 3 wives. I have enough trouble keeping one happy. 😉
Unfortunately, Paul, you are unable to multi-task.😀
Allan – if you have tips, I am willing to take instructions. 😉
Paul, I would be glad to give you those tips but I am afraid your use of them would end your life.😀
Allan – would I die with a smile on my face? 😉
Yes, that is possible, but a 5-second smile isn’t worth it and will be subject to removal by those that formerly loved you.😀
Allan – I will put it in my will that I am to be buried with a big a$$ed smiled or no one gets anything from my estate. 😉
“or no one gets anything from my estate.”
Paul, I just heard your wife laughing.😀
Quran is silent about child brides.
David Benson owes me five citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after six weeks – Muhammed took a child bride. It could not be more clear about child brides.
Women will not make appreciable strides towards equality until child marriage is abolished,
This is a nonsense statement.
Since child marriage are forced upon the child, it is really a type of sexual slavery. She is given to a man, her master, and she may not say no. She may not escape. She’s just stuck for the rest of her life.
Again, arranged marriage is the norm in Malaysia. Most early marriages end in divorce.
I am sure WSU could find a place for both or all 4 of them.
Child Protective Services…
David Benson owes me five citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after six weeks – you have to respect his religion, so you would have to hire him as a full professor of religion and get him housing for the wives.
WSU is broke.
David Benson owes me five citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after six weeks – you could do your part and return your pension.
After you.
David Benson owes me five citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after six weeks – the state of Arizona is in good shape and my public pension is rising because of it. In AZ teachers pay half the contribution to the fund and the employer pays the other half. I earned both halves.
However, I know how altruistic you are so I was sure you would give yours back to the state of Washington.
Paul C. Schulte,..
– During your time as a teacher, and in your area, was the NEA active and influential?
Tom Nash – the NEA is now a union like the AFT.
Paul C. Schulte,…
Were they active and influencial during your years in teaching?
Tom Nash – the AEA and AFT competed for the right to represent districts. It depended on which district you were teaching in as to who was representing you. The schools I taught at were charter schools and we refused to unionize although attempts were made.
Thanks, Paul. I guess it’s probably a district-by-district
decision for non-charter schools too, although I don’t know what percentage of traditional public school teachers are unionized.
Tom Nash – 100% of district teachers are represented by unions.
SCHEDULE OF AUDIT FINDINGS AND RESPONSES Washington State University July 1, 2016 through June 30, 2017
“The University did not have adequate internal controls in place for the fiscal year to ensure the accurate presentation of its permanent endowment fund additions, and investment and component unit footnotes.”
They’re not broke, David. WSU, like every other such institution in the country, is run to please it’s superordinate administration and its tenured faculty. Tenured faculty (outside the economics department and the business school) fancy they live in an economy of abundance and are poopy little tweens when told they have to set priorities.
Spastics — I am here and you are not. If WSU was a for-profit organization it would be in Chapter 11.
David Benson owes me five citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after six weeks and until he cites his sources is not to be believed. He Makes Stuff Up.
In this case, he does not walk towards the university, but rather away from it. He has no inside information.
This man should be allowed to immigrate to the US immediately.
Austria is Austria and Malaya is Malaya. i don’t believe in telling Democrats what to do as long as they find their own country.
Michael Aarethun, I fail to understand what Austria has to do with a situation in Thailand.
“not attend school”
Maybe the worst part of the arrangement.
Nothing in the cited news report that states she no longer attends school.
Don’t just Make Stuff Up, Jonathan Turley.
Sixth paragraph from the top.
“I know that my third wife is only 11 years old, that she does not attend school and that she has to reach the age of 16 for us to live together. [She] agrees to this too,” Che Abdul Karim told Bernama.
Thank you, wildbill99. I missed that.