Constitutional Law, Free Speech, Politics

North Carolina Judge Fines Klansman For Littering In Troubling Free Speech Case

There is an interesting case out of North Carolina where Justin Adams was fined $1,000 for littering.  Adams is a KKK member who was distributing Klan literature on car windshield wipers.  Complaints followed and police were called.  Chief District Judge Mark Galloway imposed the fine, but there are serious questions raised about content-based discrimination of speech. Adams’ views are vile but it seems unlikely that others distributing literature would be subject to arrest. Indeed, Roxboro Police Chief David Hess seemed to confirm as much in his later comments.

The charge of littering seems a tad convenient given the obnoxious and disturbing character of his views. Police merely charged that some material ended up on the street and that was enough for a charge.

These suspicions were only deepened by the statements of Roxboro Police Chief David Hess:

“We do not support the message of the KKK. We have historically demonstrated that and will continue to take appropriate actions. I commend the citizen for calling 911.  See Something Say Something is what allowed this arrest. I commend officers for taking appropriate actions. We support people exercising their constitutional rights. Littering is not a protected right and I commend our officers for taking appropriate action.”

He begins with celebrating the arrest of a Klansman and only belatedly adds that it was a littering charge.

Galloway did not help things.  In this supposed littering case, Galloway  referenced previous incidents of KKK violence despite his recognition that Adams had nothing to do with those incidents.  He then added the entirely inappropriate comment: “Your client has made a choice, and I’m going to do what I can to let others know that’s not a good choice for them to make . . . The phrase I always heard was, we don’t need any – and you want to know what I’m getting ready to say? – out-of-town agitators.”

Perhaps but what we need most is free speech.

Adams should challenge this fine.

107 thoughts on “North Carolina Judge Fines Klansman For Littering In Troubling Free Speech Case”

  2. I have a co-worker, a black guy who maintains a quote below his e-mail signature. Something to the effect of: “To be a black man in America today is to be in an almost constant state of rage. Richard Baldwin, 1961.” When I first read that, I thought, 1961? Are you serious? That’s more than a half century ago! But yes, there are some people, who for their own psychological reasons, need to harbor a feeling of oppression, even where none exists.

      1. Hahaha. Yes, enigma works in the cube next to me. And worse than his constant racial whining, he stinks up the restroom and never contributes to the donut fund.

      1. the cops should try arresting litterbugs for litter. at least in my corner of flyover where kluckers are not the problem but litterbugs leave their mark every day

          1. The leaflet is pretty much accurate until it gets into “the anti-Christs are trying to enslave you” bit. I think it’s greed, not religion motivating the Sacklers. The New Yorker points out the extraordinary amount of money being made off OxyContin, which funds the ability to live an opulent lifestyle and gain immortality as philanthropists. (And who cares if a bunch of deplorables have their lives destroyed along the way.) If the leaflet had stuck to its anti-drug message, it would have been more effective. Nonetheless, the judge is making a fool of himself as his ruling is so blatantly unconstitutional.

              1. True, it’s seems that their orientation is to help people with drug and alcohol problems, not harm police or anyone else they consider enemies.

  5. there are a serious of cases from the late 40s related to Jehovah’s witnesses that protect the right to flyer political and religious material, and not be charged with littering or other petty offenses. all the guy needs is a decent lawyer to look it up and appeal. probably the aclu would take an easy one like this especially if the klucker is a total rube in which case they use these fools to burnish their image

  6. I don’t care who distributed the pamphlet, or what it said, I HATE people who stick flyers, coupons, etc. under people’s windshield wipers. It is going to end up as litter. And, if they break the wiper in the process, do they reimburse the owner of the private property they just trespassed on?

  7. Perhaps but what we need most is free speech.

    Unless of course you’re the President of a university, right Turley?

    1. Straw man argument, Ollie.

      No one disputes Falwell’s right to say stupid stuff, least of all Professor Turley.

      Professor Turley is simply exercising his freedom of speech to criticize Falwell,

      which in this case is perfectly warranted.

  8. Perhaps the owners of the cars could file charges of trespass, or if they feel threatened by having their personal space invaded by what they feel might do them harm-blow the guy away. Stand your ground might work. Trespass might work, but littering is a tough one. There would have to be proof that the KKK guy actually threw the trash on the ground.

    1. You obviously haven’t read the pertinent NC littering statute where “placement” is included in the list of prohibited deposits of “litter.” By that’s nothing new for you. The micro-legal issue is whether or not the pamphlet is “litter” which is typically defined as trash. The macro-issue is whether or not the distribution is protected speech.

      1. mespo – thanks for explaining the issue at hand. I am not sure this is Constitutional under the circumstances. Political speech is heavily protected and I think this would fall under that. If they have enough money, this falls on appeal.

        1. All speech is protected except for a few exceptions that have been explicitly excluded from protection. Racist speech is not one of the exceptions (good news for Turley’s comment section).

          1. WhyWhyWhy:
            “Racist speech is not one of the exceptions (good news for Turley’s comment section).”
            **********************
            Neither is stupid speech — Good news for you!

      2. Actually, Mespo, the macro-issue is, as I see it, Equal Protection Under- and Enforcement of the law. If the police are not similarly acting against many, many others who do the same thing, then the Klan was singled out for censorship and “oppression.”

        Also – just something to think about and chuckle: What about parking tickets, which are normally left on a vehicle in much the same manner?

          1. I think it work better and that Free Speech is more of a meta-issue in this case. Why bother with whether flyers on cars windshields is “speech” when there’s the more immediate and much more clear constitutional issue of Equal Protection / Enforcement?

            And, honestly, the free speech angle is cloudy and might require or, at least, lead to content-based decisions. After all, is a restaurant’s menu or some grocery store’s sales tabloid “speech” that should be treated the same way as political flyers?

    2. flyering is protected free speech. there is already case law that they cant be charged with littering

        1. Schneider dealt with hand to hand distribution, so involved a recipient taking possession of the paper. I believe there is a split between circuits as to whether car leafleting can be banned.

          1. nah, it doesn’t matter. flyering is squarely protected by this line of cases. racists have been flyering for decades. just a decade ago it was hugely common. occasionally there is an arrest for littering and it almost never even makes it to court. but, flyering is done less now due to the internet. this old fart is stuck in the past.

        2. Mr Kurtz – most of us do not have access to Lexis-Nexis so would be kind enough to summarize the case. 😉

  9. Exactly at what point does it go from free speech to becoming littering?

  10. The Judge in question is about 75 years old. The people of that jurisdiction have had decades worth of this jack-wagon.

  11. This raises an interesting question. Are unwanted pamphlets free speech or litter?

    I get a lot from pizza & Chinese takeout delivery shops. The worst is Jehovah witness paraphernalia. Join Jehovah witness, confess your sins or go to hell.

    If you see something, say something!

    1. there are late 40s cases specifically protecting Jeh witness activities and political flyering against littering charges.

      this is easily protected free speech

    2. Is it illegal to stuff tons of trash pamphlets in mail boxes across America? 95% of ad mail is thrown in the trash. Advertisers hope for a 5% response. The Post Office refers to it as “revenue.” Why didn’t the judge fine ALL other parking lot pamphlet distributors?

  13. The klansman is without question a wretched pile of dog manure.
    Doesn’t matter, he still is protected by the First Amendment.
    The Judge should be sentenced to a Constitution 101 course at the local Community College.

    2. Wildbill:
      He’s “wretched” and dog waste “without question” because he is exactly what ? A member of s group you disagree with? Since we don’t know what the pamphlet says how can anyone evaluate the person who placed it? Maybe you’re a swami. Or maybe you’re exactly like the historical KKK and judge people based on your own prejudices rather than their individual characteristics.

      1. meso, was that sarcasm? He’s a wretched pile of dog manure because he is a member of the KKK. Not just a group I disagree with but a well documented hate group peopled by lowlife bigots.
        Will you be defending the neo Nazi trash next?

        1. “Will you be defending the neo Nazi trash next?”
          *****************************
          Sure, just like the ACLU did in Skokie. And No Bill we don’t objectify people just because we don’t like the message ascribed to them and then judge them based on their lawful affiliations. That’s guilt by association and worse still is bad logic. I thought the Left didn’t judge people as groups merely as individuals. Another false virtue signal.

          I’ll defend any person based on someone’s else’s characterization of them but not the group which is typically judged by its leadership.

          1. I agreed with the ACLU on Skokie because I believe even vermin like the Klan and the Nazis enjoy the same Constitutional rights as everyone else.

            But I never considered them as anything other than vermin.

            You. of course, have the same Constitutional right to defend Klansmen and Nazis, though you do so at the expense of your reputation.

            1. You. of course, have the same Constitutional right to defend Klansmen and Nazis, though you do so at the expense of your reputation.

              I believe a similar statement was made to John Adams in his representation of the British soldiers for the Boston Massacre.

              As long as Mark maintains his principles, his reputation will be just fine.

              1. He defended the principal of the right of an accused person to legal counsel, and he was right. I agree that Nazis and Klansmen should have that right as well. But I’m not deluded as to the character of Nazis and Klansmen.

      2. mespo – he was convicted of littering offense, not a hate crime. Is some litter better than others? If the ACLU hadn’t taken a dive in the last 10-15 years, this would be the perfect case for them.

          1. Clear as to handing out flyers hand to hand. Not clear as to leaving trash lying around.

      1. I already said his free speech rights should be respected. Even if he is a pile of dog feces.

  14. Go to any Klan meeting and most of the attendees will be government informants.

    Wonder if this judge would levy a $1000 fine against any leftist passing out literature? Won’t hold my breath.

    In another 15 years a person will be charged with “hate speech” for performing similar activities.

    1. No, he wouldn’t. And the vast majority of law professors would prefer to produce a mess of obfuscating verbiage justifying his behavior than to call out such blatant abuse of power.

    2. SJW (NOT) – no lefty would be arrested, it is against the Constitution.

    3. there is no “Klan” anymore there are a bunch of dweebs out there pretending to be something they arent. they don’t have meetings, unless you mean a few drunks guzzling beers

      when’s the last time one even heard of a credible cross lighting? the “klan” has died out

  15. It is content based discrimination. This opens the county up to a lawsuit, which they will lose.

    This is the down side of Free Speech. The government may not infringe upon this Constitutionally protected right. I vehemently disagree with Justin Adams. The Klan is now a fringe group with a tiny fraction of the membership it once enjoyed. It has no power over government, police, or the lives of people in general, besides pissing them off.

    The best solution to the KKK is to starve them of attention. Imagine if they planned a rally and no one showed up. No protestors. No onlookers. No media. Instead, everyone should gather on the other side of town and have a nice BBQ with people of all races having fun and getting along just fine.

    Remember this: the Klan loves media attention. It makes them feel relevant, important, and powerful. Why ever would anyone give the Klan what it wants?

    1. Here is what you do with an offensive leaflet:

      1. Dispose in the trash
      2. Use as toilet paper
      3. Shred it to use in the cat’s litter box.

      Have fun with finding the most appropriate Karma for such a message.

      2. Karen S….
        – Thank you for reminding me to find and hook up my printer.
        I want to more ceremoniously and more properly dispose of Weasel Bill’s comments here.

      1. The biggest reason for the small attendance at the “Unite the Right Rally” is the infighting among Klan organizations and the contempt others had for the leader. There was a recent trend of coming out of the closet and shedding their robes given a new surge of popularity of these groups (for no particular reason) but the even more recent trend of Twitter/Facebook users tracking down and identifying people and pressuring their employers has reduced that greatly.

        While Klan memberships are down when you combine them with NeoNazis, skinheads, white nationalists and others. There’s still a good number of people you could lump together that are not irrelevant to those that still managed to get murdered or attacked in the modern era.

        https://www.adl.org/resources/reports/despite-internal-turmoil-klan-groups-persist

        1. “The biggest reason for the small attendance at the “Unite the Right Rally” is the infighting among Klan organizations and the contempt others had for the leader.”
          There were few KKK members at Charlottesville. Most of the groups – though still extreme right were not as extreme as the KKK and Neo-Nazi’s.
          To get reasonable numbers you have to expend the defintion of KKK and neo-nazi far beyond what it was in 1968.

          The unite the right march was in response to an actual KKK event sometime before that had only a handful of KKK in attendance.

          ‘There was a recent trend of coming out of the closet and shedding their robes given a new surge of popularity of these groups (for no particular reason)”
          Only in your head. you are engaged in a snipe hunt.

          “but the even more recent trend of Twitter/Facebook users tracking down and identifying people and pressuring their employers has reduced that greatly.”
          Actually those actions are stupid and dangerous. Drive these groups underground and it is far harder to know what they are up to and there is far less oppertunity to persuade them of their error. The efforts of social media to police speach are extremely stupid and counter productive.
          I would suggest reading J S Mill “On Liberty”
          You can try a contemporary rewrite.
          https://heterodoxacademy.org/mill/

          While FB and Twitter are free to censor, all censorship is ultimate harmful to all.

          The remedy for bad or false speach is more speach

          https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/274/357

          “While Klan memberships are down when you combine them with NeoNazis, skinheads, white nationalists and others. There’s still a good number of people you could lump together that are not irrelevant to those that still managed to get murdered or attacked in the modern era.”

          The vast majority of murders involving the KKK and Neo-Nazi’s and white supremecists are murder OF them – often by each other.
          Regardless, you are more likely to be hit by lighting than murdered by a Klansman today.

            1. Enigma, anyone who cares about the murder rate of black people should drill down the numbers. According to national statistics, the far and away killer of black people are other black people. Much of this is driven by gangs. However, it’s really hard to break the gangs when there is so much anti-police rhetoric espoused by the Left.

              Without the check of law enforcement, it would be The Purge 365 days a year.

              There also needs to be efforts to starve the assembly line carrying kids into gangs. As I’ve remarked before, single motherhood with an absentee father is the highest risk factor for the children to be impoverished, drop out of school, join gangs, commit crimes, and end up in jail or dead. If you want to fight the high incarceration rate and murder rate of black people, then the social approval of single motherhood needs to end. Those girls need to stay in school, learn in class, get an education, and wait to get married to start their families. They have the power to change their fate. That decision alone would protect them from poverty and keep their kids out of gangs. Without new membership, and with active policing, the gangs would dry up. With less poverty, the impetus for gangs and some of the criminal activity would end. Drugs are another scourge on all communities now, driving not only gangs but also homelessness from the addict end.

              Where are the marches? Where are the impassioned speeches? The treasure pouring into PSAs and community programs? It all goes to the cache programs like squabbling over racism in one of the least racist nations in the world and the anti-semitic Black Lives Matter movement. I’ll believe that BLM to them when they get to work on fixing Gangland Chicago and the reasons why it’s like a Third World war zone in there.

              1. Enigma:

                From my recollection, you never seem to respond to the data involving most of the murder of black people in the US. If Black Lives Matter, why will you not discuss what is ending, or ruining, black lives? You will talk about tiny fringe weirdos like the KKK, and the BLM movement, but not the actual crime against black people.

                Why is that?

        2. enigma….I am correct. Also, the ACLU and NAACP, both irrelevant.
          You need to stop clinging to the archaic race baiting. Thinking people of all races have moved on.

          1. race is real. so are ethnic groups. it’s a valid basis for social organization.

            for blacks or whomever, and also whites

            thinking people understand the sense of a people as a social identity, does not just go away

            1. Mr Kurtz……excuse me when I say “Huh?” Don’t have a clue how you misunderstood. I was referring to “race-baiting”…not “race”.

              1. well Cindy I think so long as race is real people will associate on that basis from time to time as social circumstances may require or allow. race baiting is what people call it when an advocate is calling for racial solidarity.

                you can say al sharpton is a race baiter or a racial activist.
                you can say exactly the same thing of david duke

                i would not be so quick to judge either one for advocating for their group racial interests

        3. There are a shade over 2,000 klavern members in this country, give or take the FBI informants. There hasn’t been a unified Klan since 1949. You’ve had a couple of organizations who pretend to a ‘national’ membership, another clutch who claim a skelletal state organization, and several dozen stand-alone klaverns. The last homicide attributable to klavern members acting in concert occurred in 1981.

            1. klan group = meets together in seclusion perhaps in a cave= klan cavern = klavern

              ku klux comes from the greek word “kuklos” meaning circle

              the word klan recalls the Scottish clans
              who also communicated via lighted beacons….
              hence the custom of the lighted cross

              just a little “klankraft” for everyone’s edification. you’re welcome.

        4. Enigma:

          According to your own link:

          “Nationwide, there are still approximately 3,000 Klan members and unaffiliated individuals who identify with Klan ideology — but turnover and lack of stability have diminished most groups’ numbers.”

          There are 325 million people in the US. The KKK makes up approximately 0.000923%. At one time it drove politics and was the strong arm of the Democratic Party.

          While it is true that it only takes one to harm someone, it is not anywhere near the existential threat it once was.

          Publicity is free advertising for the Klan. Huge counter protests makes them feel relevant. Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t particularly want to give the Klan free advertising or a boost in morale. I don’t want to infringe upon their Speech, which would grant them court victories and self righteousness.

          Do we really need to show up in droves to protest the Klan? That will inevitably end in violence. It’s obvious that society rejects them. I would say that society rejects racism, but sadly identity politics is still going strong in the Democratic Party. Ever see what happens to an African American who refuses to vote Democratic and voices conservative views?

          Here is one of my favorites. It involves white Democrats literally screaming in her face and blowing whistles, driving her out of the restaurant where she was eating. They are trying to terrorize her into going back to the Democratic plantation. All they are missing are their white hoods. As someone of the black community, how does this make you feel, watching a bunch of Democrats literally screaming in the face of a petite black woman, because they don’t like her conservative opinions? Strange how no one steps in. Is that because they don’t wear white robes?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEm3tYZVu-g

          The Klan may be irrelevant, but its tactics of trying to force African Americans to vote Democrat are still going strong. It’s mainstreamed just like the Klan was. You can go on mainstream media and find racial slurs proudly slung at African American conservatives. It really is too bad that they never shared the conservative view of, “I disagree with what you say, but will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.”

          The Democratic Party has a problem. It has accepted hatred and violence, and it is a major turnoff to people all across the country. And now it’s openly promoted Socialism, that failed social experiment responsible for the deaths of millions of people, abuse of human rights, and damage to the environment. Do you think we’d want those people shrieking to set up Socialism in America?

          It’s not the Klan that’s the problem; it’s the mainstreaming of bullying conservatives, including minorities, to try to pressure them to be Democrats. And people care about some rally of irrelevant people cutting up bedsheets? They’re not the ones on MSNBC.

          For shame.

          1. Robert Byrd was a fine congressman. I would like Republicans to drop this stupid meme that he was a klucker. Maybe so but he was a fine congressman and served WV and the US well.

            Here he gave a wise speech. RIP Robert Byrd

            https://speakola.com/political/robert-byrd-i-weep-for-my-country-iraq-2003

            Robert Byrd: ‘I weep for my country’, Speech against Iraq invasion – 2003
            19 March 2003, US Senate, Washington DC, USA

            I believe in this beautiful country. I have studied its roots and gloried in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution. I have marveled at the wisdom of its founders and framers. Generation after generation of Americans has understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great Republic. I have been inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their strength.

            But, today I weep for my country. I have watched the events of recent months with a heavy, heavy heart. No more is the image of America one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper. The image of America has changed. Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are questioned.

            Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand obedience or threaten recrimination. Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves. We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption which is understood by few and feared by many. We say that the United States has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of the globe which might be suspect in the war on terrorism. We assert that right without the sanction of any international body. As a result, the world has become a much more dangerous place.

            We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance. We treat U.N. Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their heads from the carpet. Valuable alliances are split. After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq. We will have to rebuild America’s image around the globe.

            The case this Administration tries to make to justify its fixation with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence. We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple reason. This is a war of choice.

            There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11. The twin towers fell because a world-wide terrorist group, al-Qaida, with cells in over 60 nations, struck at our wealth and our influence by turning our own planes into missiles, one of which would likely have slammed into the dome of this beautiful Capitol except for the brave sacrifice of the passengers on board.

            The brutality seen on September 11th and in other terrorist attacks we have witnessed around the globe are the violent and desperate efforts by extremists to stop the daily encroachment of western values upon their cultures. That is what we fight. It is a force not confined to borders. It is a shadowy entity with many faces, many names, and many addresses.

            But, this Administration has directed all of the anger, fear, and grief which emerged from the ashes of the twin towers and the twisted metal of the Pentagon towards a tangible villain, one we can see and hate and attack. And villain he is. But, he is the wrong villain. And this is the wrong war. If we attack Saddam Hussein, we will probably drive him from power. But, the zeal of our friends to assist our global war on terrorism may have already taken flight.

            The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to “orange alert.” There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions unanswered. How long will we be in Iraq? What will be the cost? What is the ultimate mission? How great is the danger at home? A pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber. We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq.

            What is happening to this country? When did we become a nation which ignores and berates our friends? When did we decide to risk undermining international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire approach to using our awesome military might? How can we abandon diplomatic efforts when the turmoil in the world cries out for diplomacy?

            Why can this President not seem to see that America’s true power lies not in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire?

            War appears inevitable. But, I continue to hope that the cloud will lift. Perhaps Saddam will yet turn tail and run. Perhaps reason will somehow still prevail. I along with millions of Americans will pray for the safety of our troops, for the innocent civilians in Iraq, and for the security of our homeland. May God continue to bless the United States of America in the troubled days ahead, and may we somehow recapture the vision which for the present eludes us.

            Source: http://www.salon.com/2008/03/19/byrd/

            1. He was not only a klavern member, he was the statewide organizer. In West Virginia (where blacks are fewer than 4% of the population). During a time period where the 2d incarnation of the Klan was two years away from formal corporate dissolution. His defenders in Congress lied their asses off at the time of his death and claimed he’d done this because it was necessary to get elected. Of course this was a slander contra the voters of West Virginia. Byrd’s predecessor in the Senate and the Senator who served alongside him from 1959 to 1985 were both friendly to the interests of blacks. If you can locate another member of the West Virginia Congressional delegation between 1946 and 2010 who had been a Klan member, please tell us who it was.

              Actually, his career was an indication of pathology in West Virginia and nationally. He held public office continuously from the age of 29 to his death at age 92. He had ordinary wage jobs between the ages of 14 and 35, but no career. He could have retired with a satisfactory pension in 1989 but remained in Congress another 20 years. His bright idea for improving West Virginia’s economy was to lard the place with federal patronage.

              1. WV is full of Scots Irish working people. They don’t like carpetbaggers. Byrd was a true son of the state. He was a fine American. He had the good sense the Democrats now usually lack, on many issues.

              2. i was going to say LBJ was a klucker too but he was from Texas.

                and I would have to point to a declassified CIA report to substantiate that which might make me a conspiracy theorist. So forget it.

                1. LBJ is not in my lexicon of “Democrats that I like.” Byrd is.

                  Stephen A. Douglas is under-rated too.

            2. “Robert Byrd was a fine congressman. I would like Republicans to drop this stupid meme that he was a klucker. Maybe so but he was a fine congressman and served WV and the US well.”

              Exhibit A that Democrats idolize a racist KKK organizer in a shocking double standard. If Trump voiced appreciation for anyone who was in any oblique way connected to the Klan, there would be mass hysteria.

              “We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance.” It is not arrogant to be proud of our accomplishments in culture and technology. Third World Countries do not do much for the environment, women’s rights, basic human rights, or the innovation of technology that makes humans healthier and fights pollution. We are in a position to help much of the world because of our success. If we were knocked down a notch we would be unable to help anyone.

              “We treat U.N. Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their heads from the carpet.” (A) The UN puts the most egregious human rights abusers on its Human Rights Council. (B) The UN is increasingly anti-semitic and hostile to the US (C) The UN takes advantage of the US. We keep pouring in treasure to an organization that is (A) and (B) above, as well as useless in global crisis. You can research the scandal over UN peacekeepers raping women, children, and boys around the world while on missions. Or there are the UN schools which employ terrorists to preach anti-semitism and terrorism to Palestinians. Or there is the fact that the UN does not meet its financial obligations, but rather feels entitled to keep one hand out for continuous donations while the other hand is making a rude gesture at us.

              We should require positive results rather than just feeling good. The UN sounds like a fantastic new world order, but not when you take a closer look. It is useful to have a venue to meet with representatives; it is not a panacea.

              1. Robert Byrd was right about the Iraq war debacle. He was strong enough in his position to speak out against it when few others did. He deserves high honors in our collective memory for this fine speech. You are welcome.

                Trump is very much in line with the type of politician that Robert Byrd represented, one who represents the interests of working people and is not a war monger.

          2. Karen – I’d heard about the event with Candace Owens but hadn’t seen the video which I thank you for providing. You asked me “as someone of the black community” how I felt? My first impression is that at no point in time did she appear to be in danger and even she was laughing throughout. I can’t make any reasonable comparison to what happened to her and what continues to happen to black people at the hands of the far right.
            I think it a false narrative to think black people are not allowed to be either Republican or conservative without facing the wrath of those who would force them to comply. I have friends who are black, Republican and conservative whom I have nothing but respect for although I do take the time to mock them for the behavior of their own. The ones that have achieved disdain are not disliked because they are conservative, it’s because they’ve taken individual stances which hurt people or lie to support people or policies that benefit no one but themselves. Examples of that type would be Pastor’s Darryl Scott and Mark Burns.
            I personally have always admired several Republican legislators, some of whom were black and have no problems with many principled conservatives. You telling me what I dislike does not make it so.
            You mention “at one time” the Klan was the “strong arm of the Democrat Party” which is correct. I live 10 miles from Ocoee, FL where in 1920 the entire black population was either killed, burned out, or forced to leave because two men tried to vote in the Presidential election. Of course that history is not taught here and the headline in the Orlando Morning Sentinel said, “Race Riot in Ocoee, Two White’s Killed.” No mention of the hundreds of black people killed but the Democrats held great sway at the time. I submit I may know the heinous crimes historically of Democrats better than you, yet while they still have their issues, they are not now what they once were.
            Neither is the “Party of Lincoln.” For all that they did to help free the slaves. They traded it all for the outcome of the 1876 Election which was closely contested. In the Compromise of 1877, Republicans won the Presidency in return for removal of Federal troops from the South. This marked the end of Reconstruction and the beginning of Jim Crow. The Party of Lincoln, a title some still claim, became the party that sold out black people and arguably they have never fully recovered. After Democrats grudgingly passed (with some Republican help) the Voting Rights and Civil Rights acts in the 1960’s, Most of the Democrats that were comfortable with their history of hatred and violence, fled to the Republican Party. You can point to what the Democrats used to be but my eye is on the policies the Republicans currently promote. White nationalists occupy positions in the White House, I choose to be concerned about that. (Of course,I can name some if you want me too)

              1. It’s what happens when people bring up the relationship of the Klan to the Democrats. History must be retold, most of you, hearing it for the first time.
                One day we’ll be telling the history of how Republicans went crazy supporting Russians, White Supremacists, Neo-Nazi’s ansdWhite Nationalists, in what is now the current era. Some of you will have some explaining to do!

            2. you are right to some extent Enigma. Both parties served a white majority and hence both parties necessarily addressed the interests of whites. A lot of the other talk is retrospective propaganda.

              I would probably disagree with you that this was so wrong or illegitimate. It was democratic. It is democratic for the ANC to oust white minority in RSA? Or is that just racial counter-oppression?

              https://www.newsweek.com/anger-south-africa-over-presidents-proposal-seize-white-owned-farms-without-1052240

              Hence you can understand why some white people are increasingly attracted to the notion of racial separation. Like it or not. It’s a matter of group self protection. If blacks can worry about their own kind then so can whites. Get used to it, my good fellow.

              1. Mr Kurtz – You seem to have the order confused in your examples. White people (in America) are not “increasingly attracted to the notion of racial separation,” they invented it. Nor were blacks the first to “worry about their own kind,” for them now and then it was self-preservation. Responses today to things like Stand Your Ground, Stop & Frisk, and Mass Incarceration. Your recognition that what is happening in South Africa is a “counter-oppression” has more of a leg to stand on although it can be taken another way.

                1. Responses today to things like Stand Your Ground, Stop & Frisk, and Mass Incarceration.

                  “Stand Your Ground” and ‘Castle Doctrine” are an extension of the right of self-defense. They’re not invoked very often. (Justifiable homicides by civilians number a few hundred a year). There was a great deal of hoo ha about them during the Martin-Zimmerman case in 2012-13, even though Zimmerman had a straightforward self-defense claim and neither Stand-Your-Ground nor Castle Doctrine applied in his case. Stop-and-Frisk is a component of vigorous pro-active policing which has had great success in the City of New York. It’s a minor nuisance to a small slice of the population. People who make a fuss about these matters fall into two categories: people who have wildly ill-informed or irrational risk-assessment or (2) people who have bizarre priorities.

                2. Anyone who complains about ‘mass incarceration’ is using weasel terms masking a complaint about incarceration per se. Criminal justice properly results in punishment, not social work. People who land in prison, with few exceptions, are there because they committed serious crimes or are recidivist offenders who’ve landed in court again and again and again.

                  1. I would grant the premise that black men have been mass incarcerated as a group by federal drug conspiracy laws that require damn little evidence to prove the case. Possession of a small handful of cocaine rocks will suffice to sustain a federal charge of “intent to distribute” just because they had “a lot” which actually can be just a few rocks, ie, several doses more than one might take in one day as a typical drug abuser.

                    I find that bad. I think conspiracies should have evidence to support them not just inference from such petty “facts” as possession of more than a few doses. But that is how it works according to my understanding.

                    I do not cry and moan over this, i do not consider it racist, but I do consider it wrong.

                    Of course it is whose ox gets gored. Maybe Meuller will be abusing the same widely phrased and not-strictly-constructed conspiracy attempt type laws of which “Tax evasion” and “money laundering” are exemplary, such wide ranging laws to convict Manafort as they do to “get the baddies.”

                    Hence what Trump was getting at by contrasting Manafort to Alphonse Capone

                    1. About 20% of the total prison population is there on charges for which the top count was a drug charge. If I’m not mistaken, those in on drug charges are less likely to be black than those in on other charges.

                3. sometimes the legacy of tribal animosity is too great and separation is a legit solution.
                  is that the situation in America at this time? i do not have the answer

                  but seems to me that tribalism is part of who we all are.
                  and race is just like a big tribe of tribes

                  anyhow i part company with my conservative friends when it comes to individualism. i will allow tribal-racial-ethnic group organization for all peoples including whites.

                  if you do not allow it for whites, but you say it’s ok for blacks, then you are a hypocrite.
                  like eric holder who wanted a frank conversation on race so long as it was only black folks complaining and white folks saying sorry. well that is not the script for me.

                  watch, increasingly, it will not be a matter of silly uniforms, it will just be an organic emergent social phenomenon. and white folks will not be asking other peoples’ permission nor sanction.

                  “group forming consciousness” cuts both ways and applies to all humans

        6. That’s right, Kessler is an idiot. He was known to be an idiot before Charlottesville last year too. Events have confirmed, yes, he is an idiot.

          you’re also right there are a large number of white people out there who think that they have a right to exist. who could put a number on it? I would guess at least 1% of the white population. which is pretty scary for whites, to think that 99% of them probably feel guilty about crap that happened long before they ever lived, and so willing to resign their own group interests.

          white nationalists is not a bad name for them. and it’s not per se wrong for a white person to love their own kind anymore than it is for blacks.

          of that 1% only a fool associates with the feckless “klan”

    3. The KKK is nearly inconsequential today.

      40 years ago it was weak and dying – and THEN they still held rallies with a few thousand participants in my area.
      THEN they managed marches through town with a few hundred.

      I have not heard a whisper of KKK activity in my counting in several decades.

      Remember Sen. Robert Byrd was a Klansman. Today it is only Kooks – and few of them.

      We need not go very far out of our way to ignore them. They are pretty close to extinct.

      To many on the left fixate on boogey men long disappeared or so diminished as to be inconsequential.

      There are likely more Antifa In Boston than Neo-Nazi’s in the country.

      1. Again, the FBI’s estimate of klavern membership rolls was 2,200 in 1975. The Anti-Defamation league ca. 1983 was claiming 8,500 members in sum ‘ere the Invisible Empire declared bankruptcy and revealed that it’s total membership (1,800) was 40% lower than the Anti-Defamation League had been claiming. An attempt to organize a Klan rally in Washington in 1982 drew 37 men in white sheets who were taken into custody by law enforcement and bused away. A ‘counter-protest’ drew 5,000 people, many of whom menaced passers-by and committed acts of disorderly conduct and vandalism. When the United Klans lost a lawsuit to the Southern Poverty Law Center in 1987, they were forced to publish their balance sheet. Assets consisted of a quonset hut appraised $51,000. The contemporary collection of klanlets has several functions: as a boogie man for the $PLC to use in fund-raising, as an income source for a couple-hundred FBI assets, as a diversion for x thousand Antifa creeps and their CNN / NPR press agents, and as a diversion for people like Enigma who’d rather avoid contemplating the black population’s real problem. It’s rackets and theatre all the way down.

        1. but the racial activists get a lot of donations. many anonymous. one wonders how many are actually kept in business by Sleaze Deaze hisself

    4. “the klan” is long dead. what it is now is one old fart with a po box and a website asking for donations.

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