Journalist Jamal Khashoggi apparently wrote one last column before he was savagely murdered by agents of the the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia within its consulate in Istanbul, Turkey. There is mounting evidence that Khashoggi was killed by a team sent from Saudi Arabia including a forensic expert and a close security aide to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. Turkish sources released the contents of a tape indicating that Khashoggi was literally cut up while alive by the Saudis and may have taken seven minutes to die. There are strong indications that the United States is desperately seeking any way not to sanction Saudi Arabia or lessen such sanctions, including the suggestion by President Donald Trump that “rogue” elements might be responsible. While Trump initially promised severe punishment if Khashoggi was murdered in the consulate, the fear of many is that the Administration will find a way to protect Saudi Arabia in the face of the torture and dismemberment of a respected intellectual. For some, Khashoggi is merely a name while Saudi Arabia represents billions in contracts and thousands of jobs. However, he was a person living in the United States and a journalist who fought for freedoms in the Middle East. While he also praised the Saudi Crown prince for some reforms (particularly in giving women more rights), he was a danger precisely because he bravely spoke of freedoms of speech and the press in a region where such expression often results in arrest or execution. The Crown Prince has insisted that Khashoggi was a “friend” and that he exited the building, but the Saudis can offer no proof of the exiting.
Now the Washington Post has published his last column. As fate would have it, Khashoggi wrote about press freedom and his dream that Middle Eastern nations could some day join the West and free and open nations. Khashoggi moved to the United States in June 2017 and wrote for The Washington Post.
He was a permanent U.S. resident working as a journalist in this country when he was brutally dismembered.
He often criticized the Saudi government for its repression of critics, journalists, and women. He was an advocate for democratic reforms and freedom of speech and the press.
The evidence is now overwhelming that he was murdered by Saudi agents at the consulate in Istanbul.
What is most painful to read in this column is Khashoggi’s discussion of how atrocities by Arab authoritarian nations are no longer treated as newsworthy or at least worthy of condemnation:
“My dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi, wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press. He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five-year prison sentencefor supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government’s seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, al-Masry al Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community. Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence.”
The question is whether the United States will use some facially implausible excuse to ignore a murder of a journalist committed by the close aides of the Crown Prince. The question is whether we have reached a point where we are simply unwilling to risk the loss of military contracts or economic benefits in responding to such an atrocity. Evangelist Pat Robinson has said that responding to the brutal murder of a Washington Post journalist is not worth endangering $100 billion in arms sales. The question is whether our policies will now be entirely decoupled from any moral or ethical standards.
Khashoggi killing: Turkey vows to reveal ‘truth’ on Saudi critic’s death
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45926754
Brief excerpt:
Turkey has vowed to reveal all details about the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, after Saudi Arabia admitted for the first time he had been killed in its consulate in Istanbul.
“Turkey will never allow a cover-up,” a ruling party spokesperson said.
Saudi Arabia suggested on Friday Mr Khashoggi, a prominent Saudi critic, had died in a “fist fight”.
Turkish officials previously said he had been deliberately killed inside the consulate, and his body dismembered.
Earlier this week, unnamed Turkish officials told media outlets they had audio and visual evidence to prove this.
” Turkish officials told media outlets they had audio and visual evidence to prove this.”
Khashoggi’s death according to the Turks is proven on video and audio. We know about cameras outside of the embassy but a lot of people are talking about an Apple watch being the way the audio was recorded. The Turks haven’t mentioned how they have proof of the killing inside the embassy so it would make one think that the Turks might have bugged the embassy and don’t want anyone else to know.
I was wondering the same thing, Allan, about the Turks bugging the consulate.
I’ve seen some “tech geeks” dispute that the Apple watch transmitting to a cell phone outside would have worked.
Tom Nash – under normal circumstances, my Samsung watch would have transmitted to a phone somewhere else if they picked up. Now, they would have had to had recorded it to get the results the Turks are talking about.
Virtually all of the statements out of Turkey have been made by “unnamed Turkish officials”, or “senior” Turkish officials.
An “unnamed” Turkish official said ( on Friday, I think) that Sec. Pompaeo had heard the tape, which Pompaeo forcefully denied.
One version I’ve seen is that the body was dismembered and the remains flown back to Saudi Arabia, and another version has the body rolled up in a carpet and dumped somewhere in Turkey.
We have 2 or 3 versions of the Saudi “explanation”, and 2 or 3 versions of Diane’s versions/revisions of the Saudi statements.
If it’s established that Khoshoggi was in fact dismembered, the next version to pop up somewhere might be that he was accidently dismembered in a ceremonial sword dance gone bad.
Turkey seems to have a lot of information about Khosoggi’s final minutes in that Saudi consulate, but unless and until the evidence ( especially the tapes) is put forward officially by an identified Turkish official(s), we’re largely in the dark about a lot of the details.
One question I have is why Koshoggi did not insist on visiting a Saudi embassy or consulate in the U.S., instead of Turkey, to obtain the documents he was said to have needed.
He appears to have been concerned for his safety and may have recorded his final minutes inside of the consulate.
It seems that the Saudi assassins may have been more reluctant to kill Koshoggi at a Saudi facililty in the U.S., but maybe they would have found another way to do him in wherever Koshoggi was.
The Khashoggi are the Merchant family of Saudi. They may not be royal or cleric, but they do wield power. The horror of his death is inconceivable. It was my understanding that he did not want to go in that consulate, but was reassured by the Turks that he would be safe.
If Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman declared he exited alive, but the Turks claim they have video of him being cut into pieces while still alive, then someone’s lying.
Khashoggi was a legal resident under our protection, and one of the few journalists with integrity putting his life on the line criticizing one of the Muslim regimes. His own country betrayed him. Will we stand up for what’s right?
Saudi Arabia is not just a source of contracts and jobs. It is part of OPEC. It is the most friendly Muslim majority country to America, now that Turkey has fallen down the rabbit hole to Muslim extremism. Saudi Arabia represents military strategic access to the Middle East, and it can impact our access to oil. The Oil Embargo of the 70’s almost brought our country to a standstill. You can’t buy eggs or milk without using fossil fuels to transport it to the store.
This is one of the reasons why I have long wanted energy independence for the US. Any outside energy in our portfolio should be sourced from strong allies. Alternative energy is currently too expensive and inconsistent to replace fossil fuels entirely. Until fossil fuels gets replaced by clean energy that is economical, we need to produce as much of it domestically and from our close allies as possible. That alone will greatly decrease the leverage of the Middle East.
Realistically, we also should solve the problem of depending upon despots for logistical access to the Middle East. We shamefully fail to recognize Turkey’s Armenian genocide. We ignore the fact that very little differentiates the behavior of ISIS and Saudi Arabia. Apostates are still killed. Women are still stoned to death. And gay men take a one way trip to Chop Chop Square. My own father frequently travelled to Saudi Arabia for the Pentagon, and later for private industry. He never forgot when they took him to Cop Chop Square for what turned out to be the execution of two gay men. It really disturbed him, but he couldn’t do anything to stop it.
The Royals live in a Militant Puritanical country, but they come to America to act like hedonist hypocrites.
And what about the Four Princesses who have lived their lives in house arrest because they liked the West too much? The last I heard, Sahar and Jawaher were running out of food and water in 2015. And yet, their father, the late King Abdulla (Servant of Allah) was praised by John Kerry for his wisdom, and by the former head of the International Monetary Fund as a “strong advocate for women.”
It’s not just the US who turns a blind eye to this repressive Muslim regime. It’s the entire Western world. Perhaps when the oil runs out, or it’s finally been firmly replaced, they won’t have any more wealth to fund terrorism or buy indulgence from countries who should know better but make the Machiavellian choice.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/01/23/dont-forget-the-late-saudi-kings-jailed-princesses/?utm_term=.b204a2603c67
It is time for Saudi Arabia to be held accountable. No one gets a pass. The West fears the complete destabilization of the Middle East and its decent into extremist chaos. Turkey and the UAE had some tension between the clerics and rulers. They did not have free reign. Turkey is descending into extremism and bin Salman treads a razor edge, but he sure isn’t secular or a fighter for individual liberty. The West cannot hold back the tide of extremism in the Middle East, and needs to doomsday prep for that day.
“It is time for Saudi Arabia to be held accountable.”
Yes, but without hurting Americans or America. Sometimes things of this nature can be used to bend countries to act appropriately. I think the President has that skill and Democrats will do everything to prevent him from using it even if it hurts America and Americans.
It is a vulnerable position for Saudi Arabia to hold such leverage over us. I would like to weaken their position. Of course, we built their missile defense shield.
We let Saudi Arabia hold leverage on us and that has cost us dearly. In the 70’s during the gas crisis I advocated raising gasoline taxes very significantly since the alternative in my mind was control by oil producing countries and terrorism.
Today things are different. Saudi Arabia doesn’t have such power over us as they did before. They need us and we should use our bargaining power as a way to move the Saudis in the appropriate direction. That doesn’t mean we have to stop our relationship with them. We just have to exert our power judiciously. Of course the Democrats because of their hatred for Trump will do everything possible to make him look bad even if that causes harm to America or Americans.
“Of course the Democrats because of their hatred for Trump will do everything possible to make him look bad even if that causes harm to America or Americans.”
Allanonsense by Allanucklehead.
All you can do is call people names. You can’t dispute opinion or facts. You can copy the written word, but you don’t seem to know what you copy means. All and all you act like an ignorant lunatic and apparently love the attention.
Nickolas Kristof
More Insulting Lies from Saudi Arabia
Recommends a very hard stand; recommended reading.
David, if you want to get yourself into a frenzy read things that hype of the Saudi affair. That, unfortunately, doesn’t help one plan for the future. It just dullens the brain so one makes bad decision. The truth is that most do not like the Saudi’s to begin with and many would have dealt with the Saudi’s in the past far harsher than has been done. Unfortuantely reality sometimes places bad actors with good actors and the good actors have to tolerate the smell because the alternatives are worse.
David, if you want to get yourself into a frenzy
Ha ha ha. There are cells in David’s body which haven’t seen blood in years. They’ll be terribly disoriented when it shows up.
Allan, credible implies a positive degree of belief.
On that topic, see
Formal Representations of Belief
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
although The Donald has such confused mental processes that I doubt it is helpful in this instance.
“credible implies a positive degree of belief or plausibility”
David, though you might live in a world where things are totally black and white, that is not true for those that think a bit deeper. One can have many credible statements that do not agree with one another yet all are credible statements. I think you should skip the Philosophy encyclopedia and head directly for the dictionary.
You misunderstand Trump’s mental processes. You are unable to think more than a step or two ahead so you get confused when he thinks far ahead. You must not be very good at chess.
I used to be a 2 Dan amateur player of the orientation game of Go.
Using those black and white pieces you may have advanced up the ladder but that has little to do with the political intrigues of our time. You have not demonstrated any facility in the area of ideology and politics. I suggest you play GO.
You brought up chess so you are changing the subject again.
I call a Gish Gallop on you.
David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me seventeen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – changing the subject is not a Gish Gallop. You really need to look up the definition again.
As
I
Have
Mentioned
Several
Times
But
You
Don’t
Recall
As
Your
Mind
Is
Not
All
There,
I
Have
Heard
Duane
Gish
In
Debate.
David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me seventeen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – you may have heard Gish in debate but you neither listened nor learned.
When one considers the idea of thinking ahead one thinks of chess. I was trying to get you to understand that it is not good enough to think only one step ahead. You criticize Trump because he is so many steps ahead of you that you cannot figure out what the game plan is.
You should stick to the game of Go or read up on the Gish Gallop. The argument I maid remained the same, thinking ahead, but perhaps that was too much for you as you couldn’t even figure out the present.
Oriental
D¥₩n the autocorrect!
Got a problem Anonymous so that you are using foul language.
Credible = believeable
Your language is unbelievable.
Do you find, along with The Donald, that the Saudi story is credible?
Incredulous fool, I say.
David, at least until the present the President hasn’t stated whether or not he believes the Saudi story. You can’t seem to get the facts straight.
Allan, according to the news, The Donald stated that the Saudi story was credible.
Do try to keep up.
David: Credible = believable
That a story is believeable doesn’t make the story true. Stop acting stupid and recognize that a lot of different scenarios are credible. The President has to act like a Statesman in this type of situation not like the type of political hack you would likely support.
Allan, reread your comment of 9:51 pm, supra.
I read it. Apparently you don’t know what the word credible means.
Any thoughts on the latest excuse from the Saudis?
And many thanks to L4D.
The House of Saud has publically confessed that Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salman and fifteen of his intelligence operatives are stinking cowards. The Kingdom has also thereby publically conceded that one The Kingdom’s critics, Jamal Khashoggi, was a valiant warrior who bravely fought back against The Kingdom’s coterie of cowards unto his very last. Such public confessions of Saudi cowardice will not be well received in the Muslim world. And that, too, is bad news for us.
“Such public confessions of Saudi cowardice will not be well received in the Muslim world”.
From Rueters, Oct. 20, 2018– “Egypt commends Saudi king on brave and desisive action over Khoshoggi killing”.
Pretty severe criticism 😉from a major country “in the Muslim world”.
That comment from the military leaders whom The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia installed in Egypt once they had ousted the democratically elected President of Egypt Al-Mosri in a military coup was bought and paid for to the tune of beaucoup bucks.
Ordinarily The Bournemouth Strangler is not that incomparably gullible. I swear. There’s desperation in the air that the mouth-breathers have been chuffering lately.
I didn’t know that L4B meant that the Saudis’ statement “will not be well received in the Muslim world” by the regimes she approves of.
That’s a change from her original statement.
Since she disapproves of Egypt’s leadership, it must not be part of the Muslim world by her “reasoning”.
The US still backs Mohamed ElBaradei. So does L4D. Mohamed Morsi was an Islamist who did highly suspicious things with The Egyptian constitution. Nevertheless, the Saudi backed military coup against Morsi was hardly a good thing for anybody else besides The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia who bought and paid for that coup. And, in any case, the unfinished business leftover from The Arab Spring is most definitely what the assassination of Jamal Khashoggi was all about.
Not Al-Morsi, but Mohamed Morsi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Morsi
Excerpted from the article linked above:
The military suspended the constitution and established a new administration now led by General Abdel Fatah al-Sisi.[17] The Muslim Brotherhood protested against the military coup, but the pro-Morsi protests were crushed in the August 2013 Rabaa massacre in which at least 817 civilians were killed. Opposition leader Elbaradei quit in protest of the massacre.
Since his overthrow, Egyptian prosecutors have charged Morsi with various crimes and sought the death penalty, a move denounced by Amnesty International as “a charade based on null and void procedures.” His death sentence was overturned in November 2016, so he will receive a retrial. However, Morsi is still currently imprisoned.
How much it cost The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-egypt-protests-loan/uae-offers-egypt-3-billion-support-saudis-5-billion-idUSBRE9680H020130709
Excerpted from the article linked above:
CAIRO (Reuters) – Saudi Arabia approved $5 billion in aid to Egypt on Tuesday and the United Arab Emirates has offered $3 billion in desperately needed support for the economy after the army ousted the Islamist president last week.
The Saudi funds comprise a $2 billion central bank deposit, $2 billion in energy products, and $1 billion in cash, the Saudi Finance Minister Ibrahim Alassaf told Reuters.
“The House of Saud has publically confessed that Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salman and fifteen of his intelligence operatives are stinking cowards. ”
Did the House of Saud really call them “stinking cowards”? I don’t think so but Diane doesn’t like to report facts. Instead she likes to report what she would like to hear. That is where we get our insight into the mind of Diane and it provides a lunacy that cannot be found on Netflix.
Allan,..
The actual statement from the Saudis is online.
It differs considerably from the Dianeizied version.
Once actual statements or comments go through her spin machine, they come out looking different.
Different, but more to her liking.
On the issue of how the Saudis’ statement is being received in the Muslim world, three nations allied with Saudi Arabia have praised the statement.
The “fistfight” version of what actually happened is not convincing, but the issue brought up by our Expert on the MidEast and Everything Else was that the statement would “not be well received in the Muslim world”.
More likely, those Muslim states who are Saudi allies will accept and even complement the statement.
And it will probably “not be well received” by Saudi adversaries in the Muslin world.
No amount of posting Wikipedia links, or quoting Wikipedia while changing the subject, will alter that scenario.
PS…Prof. Irwin Corey, aka “The World’s Foremost Authority”, died fairly recently at the age of 102.
Allan, given his style ( firing off non-sequiturs and nonsensical observations), you can “get insight into the mind of Diane” by watching Prof. Corey’s act.😏
“It differs considerably from the Dianeizied version.”
Tom, I learned long ago that Diane makes up facts to meet her desired ends. This is her nature so I wouldn’t try and change her. All one has to do is discount anything she says. Her conclusions are generally wrong and frequently she thinks her conclusions are existent fact so she adds them to her list of facts. She fits well in the leftist world which doesn’t care about truth or honor.
Truth? Honor? MBS sent fifteen goons to assassinate someone who dared to say things contrary to MBS and his Daddy The King coughed up the thorouhgly wretched excuse that Khashoggi was justifiably killed for having had the temerity to fight back against his killers with the only weapons he had brought with him–his fists–so the fifteen-goon death-squad had no choice but to kill him in “15-to-1-self-defense”????? IS THAT A FACT?????
And Allanuckled blathers bunk about Honor and Truth?????
We are talking about you Diane, not MBS. I don’t care about MBS. I care about America and its people. You sit there spinning conspiracies and lying before even knowing the facts. You are one looney old woman.
Allanucklehead said, “Did the House of Saud really call them ‘stinking cowards’?”
Of course not. What the House of Saud said is that Jamal Khashoggi valiantly fought back against the fifteen Saudi intelligence operatives whom MBS had sent to assassinate Khashoggi. The House of Saud further coughed that up as a craven excuse for having sent fifteen goons to assassinate Khashoggi in the first place. And those craven confessions necessarily entail that MBS and his death squad were stinking cowards.
By analogy, when Kavanaugh denied ever having lost consciousness as a result of excessive alcohol consumption, he did not deny ever having blacked out as a result of excessive alcohol consumption.
Do the head scratching, Allanucklehead.
“Of course not.”
Diane, There it is. You admit that what you said wasn’t true. Then you blame the other person for pointing it out.. That is the type of lunatic you are. Then you tie Khashoggi into Kavanaugh when they have nothing to do with one another. Then you pass out insults.
You are one crazy woman Diane, I’d say you are on the borderline of being committed.
Marcy Wheeler:
https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/1052660529406373888
emptywheel
@emptywheel
More emptywheel Retweeted Helena Cobban
Really interesting thread abt why MBS would take such extreme measures w/Khashoggi.emptywheel added,
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
6. But the combination of intra-family oppositn with extra-family opposition from e.g. pro-MB networks was likely seen by MBS & his enforcers as so incendiary as to justify “extreme measures” such as reportedly were taken. I knew JK just a little.>
Show this thread
1:40 PM – 17 Oct 2018
Hellena Cobban:
https://twitter.com/helenacobban/status/1052650132922134528
Helena Cobban’s series of tweets
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
[Thread] 1. I’ve been trying to figure out the source of MBS’s extreme hatred/fear of #JamalKhashoggi. For starters, it’s key to note that though JK had a long track record in journalism, he was also a political actor. >
10 replies 144 retweets 238 likes
Reply 10 Retweet 144 Like 238
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
2. He’s had close ties to Prince Turki al-Faisal (fmr longtime head of Saudi intelligence, more recently ambo in London & DC) & to other non-MBS royals. It’s also no secret he recently had good relations with the Muslim Brotherhood, >
2 replies 16 retweets 57 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 16 Like 57
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
3. a historic, transnational organiz’n containing a number of trends. E.g. the MB branches in Egypt & Palestine participated in elections & committed to an electoral process (& both suffered much for that), while that in Syria has been much more committed to violence. >
1 reply 11 retweets 43 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 11 Like 43
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
4. In the past 18 months or so, in addition to picking up the interesting gig as a contributor to @WaPo’s Global Opinions, he has reportedly been planning for creation of a pro-democracy movement focused on Saudi Arabia. >
1 reply 17 retweets 65 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 17 Like 65
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
5. So it seems this, based on the broad reach of JK’s connections both inside & outside the eponymous “Saudi” royal family, aroused MBS’s v. intense ire. Easy to see how MBS wd be spooked to learn of opposition to his already-grisly & maniacal dictatorship from his cousins, >
1 reply 16 retweets 61 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 16 Like 61
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Follow Follow @helenacobban
More
6. But the combination of intra-family oppositn with extra-family opposition from e.g. pro-MB networks was likely seen by MBS & his enforcers as so incendiary as to justify “extreme measures” such as reportedly were taken. I knew JK just a little.>
12:58 PM – 17 Oct 2018
14 Retweets 61 Likes JillianScott StuebnerRick BuekerTrish HolmgrenScoobyCrew🇺🇸Proud Mimi of Two🇺🇸Deb ClantonJeanneدخت بندر خشكيده
6 replies 14 retweets 61 likes
Reply 6 Retweet 14 Like 61
New conversation
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
7. Back in ’05, I was running an international workshop on nonviolence at/with the UN University’s (now-defunct) campus in Amman, Jordan. It was a weird experience. But w/ encouragement from the people running that UNU program I went to see then-ambo Turki in his DC office >
1 reply 9 retweets 43 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 9 Like 43
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
8. to see if we could get his approval for some Saudi citizens to attend. (Yes, it was a weird experience, as many UN operations are.) Turki called in his “advisor”, JK, to attend that meeting & to my surprise said JK himself wd take part in the 2-day workshop. Not exactly >
1 reply 9 retweets 41 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 9 Like 41
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
9. the kind of “young citizen activist” we’d had in mind, but I’d done enough “Track 2” diplomatic things by then that I thought getting a foot in the KSA door seemed a good thing. JK did come to the workshop & took part in all the exercises etc with good humor. >
1 reply 8 retweets 41 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 8 Like 41
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
10. So of course it’s been v. shocking to learn via the Turkish-govt leaks about the unspeakable things MBS’s goons reportedly did to Jamal in the consulate. RIP; and my deep condolences to his fiancee & the rest of his family. But again– WHY this extreme brutality, which now >
1 reply 10 retweets 56 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 10 Like 56
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
11. looks very counter-productive indeed & also (since we have to assume that MBS is not entirely stupid) must have been viewed as very risky indeed when he & his goons were planning it. So why? I think the threat they saw Jamal as posing was not only from the “Al-Saud” cousins >
2 replies 11 retweets 45 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 11 Like 45
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
12. But also from his ties to MB-linked circles given that in many contexts the MB has proven to be effective in building grassroots civilian movements that offer a *modern* form of Islam to Muslims, thus competing directly with his claims to be a “modernizer”. Also, the MB >
1 reply 12 retweets 46 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 12 Like 46
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
13. has kept to the very traditional Muslim opposition to any form of (inheritable) monarchy; does not believe in either kings or princes, and promotes traditional Islamic virtues of egalitarianism. I don’t know what support the MB has among Saudi citizens. >
1 reply 10 retweets 47 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 10 Like 47
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
14. Maybe it’s like the Falun Gong in China: An autocratic government will always fear self-organizing citizen movements. But I do know that very many Saudi citizens are outraged by the profligacy of the royals, the double standards they enjoy; and many Saudis are also >
1 reply 8 retweets 55 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 8 Like 55
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
15. deeply offended by the ease with which so many royals flout the basic tenets of their faith and flaunt their wealth domestically & in international settings. So the constituency for an MB-type movement is almost certainly there, both among Saudi citizens & >
2 replies 10 retweets 48 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 10 Like 48
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
16. among many of their non-Saudi hired hands. If someone cd create an alliance between non-MBS royals v angry at his usurpation of their powers, privileges, boondoggles, & bottom lines and a potential popular movement inside “Saudi” Arabia (aka the Arabian Peninsula), >
1 reply 10 retweets 41 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 10 Like 41
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
17. then that wd be explosively threatening to MBS & justify him & his goons taking great risks. I should note tho tht ever since King Faisal was killed by a nephew (w CIA ties??) in 1975, no Saudi king has *ever* taken on the challenge of governing with any seriousness & hence >
1 reply 12 retweets 41 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 12 Like 41
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
18. for > 40 years, *very* few Saudi princes have received any serious training in the arts of governance or anything else socially useful except libertinism and idleness. So the “bench” of princes capable of envisaging a persuasive alternative to MBS or planning >
1 reply 12 retweets 45 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 12 Like 45
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
19. its implementation is thin, indeed. What does all this mean? Well, clearly, there is a crisis in Saudi-US relations (based as they are primarily on the Saudis giving massive dollops of $$ to US businesses/consultancies/etc.) & this is almost certainly spooking Saudi royals >
1 reply 13 retweets 41 likes
Reply 1 Retweet 13 Like 41
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
20. & the few other members of the country’s elite who are worth counting as players, very deeply indeed. MBS has worked hard & fast over the almost 4 years since his Dad became “King”, to cut off access to levers of power from being held by anyone else except himself >
2 replies 9 retweets 37 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 9 Like 37
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
21. & that almost certainly also includes his deeply geriatric Dad. But might Dad be able to disavow this son and switch the designation of “Crown Prince” elsewhere? In a crisis like this, he loyalties of the heads of the ctry’s various security orgs are crucial. >
2 replies 10 retweets 36 likes
Reply 2 Retweet 10 Like 36
Helena Cobban
@helenacobban
Oct 17
More
22. In this sense, the atmosphere inside Riyadh today is almost certainly Shakespearean: Julius Caesar; Macbeth; Richard II… I wish I had time to write more about this. But stay tuned for lots more news coming out of Riyadh in the coming days & weeks.
Falun Gong. Oh boy. The PRC which is repressive indeed but Falun Gong are no saints. It’s an oversimplified and phony kind of Ch’an Buddhism that’s mostly a profit center for its founder.
Here we have scientology. Even worse than Falun Gong to be sure. But another obvious religious fraud. Our government won’t suppress cranks. the PRC will. I won’t lose any sleep over Falun Dafa.
If you want to find outrageous things about China you never have to even get to Falun Gong, the corruption and abuse of regular citizens is quite enough. Move on to Tibet, And then you can move on to a million Muslims locked up in Xinjiang for no reason other than “reeducation.” I mean there have been problems with jihaadi muslims in China but one million? that’s quite a large number of regular people I would think.
It makes the “repression” of Falun Gong look paltry by comparison.
The wretched mass media in the US always gives the PRC a pass. Prolly all the money the Chicoms give the Democrats, not surprising outcome.
Washington Post Smears Front Page to Cover Up Facts About Khashoggi
And we are talking about facts here.
1. Jamal Khashoggi is a Muslim Brotherhood figure.
2. His Afghanistan “journalism” was Jihadi propaganda.
3. He remained a supporter of Islamic terrorism
and…
4. He was an old friend of Osama bin Laden and mourned his death
These are all facts. The media huffs and puffs, but all it has in response is innuendo and arm waving. The Washington Post gave Jamal Khashoggi a forum to promote the Muslim Brotherhood and its agenda, Its response to the facts about Jamal Khashoggi would make the North Koreans wince at the lack of subtlety.
Hard-line Republicans and conservative commentators are mounting a dark whisper campaign against Jamal Khashoggi
“Hard-line”.
Subtle innuendo.
And it’s not a whisper campaign. They’re statements of fact, said out loud. It’s the Washington Post that is trying to run a dark whisper campaign.
“In recent days, a cadre of conservative House Republicans allied with Trump has been privately exchanging articles from right-wing outlets that fuel suspicion of Khashoggi, highlighting his association with the Muslim Brotherhood during his youth…”
The articles, including mine, are public. And Khashoggi’s association with the Brotherhood is ongoing.
and raising conspiratorial questions about his work decades ago as an embedded reporter covering Osama bin Laden,
He was recruited by a Jihadi financier and he didn’t report, he produced Jihadi propaganda, As Patrick Poole showed,
“While Khashoggi was once sympathetic to Islamist movements, he moved toward a more liberal, secular point of view, according to expertson the Middle East who have tracked his career.
His own WaPo work promoted the Muslim Brotherhood, The Post is lying about the contents of its own paper. It does this by attributing the lie to “experts”.
And here’s Khashoggi celebrating Hamas,
Khashoggi knew bin Laden in the 1980s and 1990s during the civil war in Afghanistan, but his interactions with bin Laden were as a journalist with a point of view who was working with a prized source.
A source of what?
Khashoggi was glamorizing Jihadis on behalf of their backers. When Osama bin Laden died, he grieved. He was no more of a reporter than Dabiq’s writers are.
A Tuesday broadcast of CR-TV, a conservative online outlet founded by popular talk-radio host Mark Levin, labeled Khashoggi a “longtime friend” of terrorists and claimed without evidence that Trump was the victim of an “insane” media conspiracy to tarnish him.
I’d say this article is evidence.
A story in far-right FrontPage magazine casts Khashoggi as a “cynical and manipulative apologist for Islamic terrorism, not the mythical martyred dissident whose disappearance the media has spent the worst part of a week raving about,” and features a garish cartoon of bin Laden and Khashoggi with their arms around each other.
It also mentions all the facts that WaPo keeps denying.
Fred Hiatt, The Washington Post’s editorial page editor who published Khashoggi’s work, sharply criticized the false and distorted claims about Khashoggi, who is feared to have been killed and dismembered by Saudi operatives.
Nothing but the facts at the Post.
Hiatt said in a statement. “It may not be surprising that some Saudi-inspired trolls are now trying to distract us from the crime by smearing Jamal. It may not even be surprising to see a few Americans joining in. But in both cases it is reprehensible.”
What’s reprehensible is that the Post gave a platform to a terrorist supporter.
In the House, a perceived lack of cooperation from the White House on Khashoggi has compelled some Republicans to take newinterest in a bill to invoke the War Powers Resolution to curtail U.S. military support for the Saudi-led coalition operating in Yemen’s civil war. But the legislation has not yet secured the support of leading Republicans on foreign policy.
The Post’s propaganda, as usual, neglects to mention whom the Saudis are fighting. And that should tell you everything about its agenda.
Iran. Through its Houthi proxies.
That’s also whom the media supports.
__Greenfield
well, i have seen a lot of garbage coming out of the Wapo so I can believe it’s just as Allan says.
At the end of the day I think this will just add up to an internecine thing among the Saudi royals that is not too much our US business so just let it slide.
Mark M. fires three shots and then rides off to reload.
I guess there is a fourth parting shot.
David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me seventeen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – as I said before, when an NPC is shooting blanks, who cares.
David Benson is the King of Making Stuff Up and owes me seventeen citations (one from the OED) and the source of a quotation, after nineteen weeks, and needs to cite all his work from now on. – who cares if the NPC Marky Mark Mark rides off to reload, it is shooting blanks.
Princess Diana
“Diana believed she was going to be killed by the establishment The main motivating factor behind the conspiracies is the belief that Diana herself thought she was going to be killed. And that much, it appears, is true. Chief among them is a letter that was disclosed by Paul Burrell, Diana’s one time butler, who said he had been given it for safekeeping.
“I am sitting here at my desk today in October, longing for someone to hug me and encourage me to keep strong and hold my head high. This particular phase in my life is the most dangerous. […] is planning ‘an accident’ in my car, brake failure and serious head injury in order to make the path clear for Charles to marry,” it read.
The letter appears eerily prescient. And, indeed, it had history: when Diana wrote the letter, she had experienced problems with her car, had voiced fears about them, and her bodyguard had died in an accident that she believed had been a conspiracy. Diana clearly had concerns about her safety: that much isn’t a conspiracy theory. But there appears to be no official suggestion that she would actually be killed, even if there was animosity between some members of the royal family and Diana.”
– Independent
Is that about Khasoggi’s second cousin, Doo Doo al Fayed?
What do we have here?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/2018/10/18/just-about-everything-youve-read-warren-dna-test-is-wrong/
Aha! Right newspaper, wrong thread.
But too bad nobody but me has read it. 🙁
Joseph Rago
“VEROPHARM”
Joseph Rago –
“Wall Street Journal Reporter Asks Russia For “Clinton Information” —-Turns Up DEAD 2 Days Later”
“A Wall Street Journal Editor who was investigating how a Russian
Pharmaceutical firm could have been purchased in 2014 by an American
Pharmaceutical firm while Sanctions against Russia existed against such
business transactions, has been found dead in his New York City
apartment. The crux of the dead journalists investigation was how
then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton influenced the transaction to be
finalized, but only AFTER her husband Bill was paid $500,000 for giving
a speech in Moscow.
The Russia Consulate General’s office in New York City was contacted
by Wall Street Journal reporter/editor Joseph Rago who requested a
Thursday (20 July) in person interview with consular officials regarding
an upcoming article he was preparing on Hillary Clinton and her links
to Russia. Rago failed to attend the meeting and was later discovered
dead in his apartment of as yet “unknown causes” just hours prior to
this meeting occurring.”
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news/world-news/878-wall-street-journal-reporter-asks-russia-for-clinton-information-2-days-later-turns-up-dead
“Sarcoidosis” killed Joseph Rago in minutes just before a meeting at the Russian Consulate General’s office. Sarcoidosis must be very similar to an instantaneous car wreck.
_____________________
Sarcoidosis may resolve without any treatment within a few years.[2][5] However, some people may have long term or severe disease.[5] Some symptoms may be improved with the use of anti-inflammatory drugs such as ibuprofen.[8] In cases where the condition causes significant health problems, steroids such as prednisone are indicated.[9] Medications such as methotrexate, chloroquine, or azathioprine may occasionally be used in an effort to decrease the side effects of steroids.[9] The risk of death is between one and seven percent.[5] There is a less than five percent chance of the disease returning in someone who has had it previously.[2]
– Wiki
Seth Conrad Rich
DNC Voter Expansion Data Director
Died: July 10, 2016
Seth Conrad Rich was shot several times in the back a block from his home in D.C.’s neighborhood of Bloomingdale. The police declared it a robbery gone bad, but nothing had been taken; Seth still had his wallet, watch, and cell phone.
One possible motive for his assassination lies with the WikiLeaks dump of 20,000 DNC emails which proved the DNC was rigging the primaries to favor Hillary Clinton. The scandal forced DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Shultz to resign. Although Hillary’s people tried to portray this as a hack by Russia, to cast Hillary as a victim of international intrigue, WikiLeaks, while not identifying the leak, denied it was Russia, and stated it was an “internal” leak. If Seth (who was in a perfect position to acquire the data) were the leak, that would be ample motive to murder him, as a warning to others inside the DNC not to blow any whistles.
Shortly after the killing, Redditors and social media users were pursuing a “lead” saying that Rich was en route to the FBI the morning of his murder, apparently intending to speak to special agents about an “ongoing court case” possibly involving the Clinton family. Reports are that we was set to testify before the Congressional Committee looking into Hillary’s email server. According to Rich’s girlfriend, Seth Rich had uncovered evidence of massive fraud in the primaries involving a voter app he himself had written.
A reward has been offered for information on this murder.
– Clinton Body Count – What Really Happened
al-Awlaki deserved his punishment.
Do tell.
Given the shifting stories we see being leaked to our wretched media, it’s a reasonable inference we haven’t a clue as to what’s going on and that Turkey is spinning this for it’s own Machiavellian designs. Caveat lector. And suspend judgment.
LOL “our wretched media” they are liars watch this it made me laugh, DJT is hilarious
https://www.breitbart.com/video/2018/10/14/trump-during-back-and-forth-with-cbss-lesley-stahl-over-immigration-im-president-and-youre-not/
stories on the net say one of the 15 man hit team mysteriously died in a car accident, thus confirming the hollywood trope of the assasin getting assasinated
also they say Al Sissiri or some name like that is the General that MBS has authorized to take the fall for this thing.
it’s all good when you’re a Saudi prince, that is, unless a Saudi prince above you decides it’s time for you to cash in them chips!
Or this:
US supplied bomb that killed 40 children on Yemen school bus
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/us-supplied-bomb-that-killed-40-children-school-bus-yemen
American values.
Anon:
Probably sold them the stretcher, infusions and medicine used to treat them, too. So? Think they’d be happier if it was a Chinese bomb?
America Is Not an Innocent Bystander in Yemen
Washington has left a vacuum in the Middle East, letting U.S. allies do as they please—no matter how high the body count.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/27/america-is-not-an-innocent-bystander-in-yemen/
So if we stay we’re wrong and if we leave we’re wrong. Quite the prejudice you have there.
The fact that something is unfair does not make that thing untrue. I would’ve thought the Machiavellian worldview would accept such a hard-nosed reality.
The reality is we have nothing to fear for our adversaries so long as respond to them as our adversaries. There is no blowback. It’s Someone’s fantasy.
You should read the article to which anonymous linked us. I did. The Saudis and the Emiratis are fighting the Houthis in Yemen. The Houthis are backed by Iran and Hezbollah. Every last one of those warring parties is fighting Al Qaeda on the Arabian Penninsula (AQAP). Guess who our number one enemy is? That’s right. AQAP. So, to review the bidding with the original inflection: Yemen is now Afghanistan.
Out of curiosity, what does Mespo think “blowback” means?
P. S. anonymous is never to be dismissed.
I read the drivel. The premise is that “errant” anti-terrorist drone strikes by presumably the US protecting its interests justifies hatred of the US. Stupid premise. Btw the blowback is an unwanted effect of an action. Please explain the effect in the context of Defending ourselves from our mortal enemies. Should we prostrate ourselves before them to avoid the dreaded “blowback”?
If you read the article, then you failed to comprehend it. Yemen is now a failed State of the exact type that Afghanistan was from the years after The Soviet/Afghan War through the September Eleventh terrorist attacks and beyond into America’s longest running war ever.
L4D:
Here’s the “money” paragraph in the article (“America Is Not an Innocent Bystander in Yemen”) that serves as its premise and which I referred to:
“The United States finds itself in the midst of this tragedy, but it is hardly an innocent bystander. Yemen has regularly been the target of U.S. drone strikes over the last 16 years. Those operations have killed a fair number of terrorists, but there have also been plenty of mistakes that have obliterated families, maimed people attending weddings, and blown up guys in pickup trucks who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
” Should we prostrate ourselves before them to avoid the dreaded “blowback”?”
Isn’t that what Obama essentially did. That and sending piles of money to people that want us dead.
it’s exactly what he did though as you know, I;m not an Obama-phobe. I recognize good things he did domestically.
Mespo, Id like to know what you think he did domestically that was theoretically good and carried out well without a lot of unintended consequences. Understand I don’t disagree with a number of his ends, only the means he used to get there.
Allanucklehead has surpassed his previous nadir of incomparable doltishness.
According to Allanucklehead and–looky, looky, Mespo, too, who really ought to know better–Obama supposedly postrated America before Jihadists in the act of killing them with drone strikes. Meanwhile, it was Seal Team Six who brought Osama bin Laden to justice. Obama had nothing to do with it.
There is no lower limit to the incomparable doltishness of Allanucklehead. (But Mespo, too???)
“Obama supposedly postrated America before Jihadists in the act of killing them with drone strikes.”
Diane, no one said Obama wasn’t two-faced.
To mespo727272
You’re glib. And obviously not a deep thinker.
(The thing about these wars and other violent actions — is that they always come home — in one way or another; they come back to haunt us.)
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/blowback-chalmers-johnson/1100623460#/
sometimes they do but you mr anonymous may suffer from delusion that sovereign power can subsist without “Violence” that is false. it is the substance of sovereignty itself
so a country may refrain from stirring up needless wars but wars as such are and always will be necessary in the human struggle for existence and as groups will always always be competing for resources
the reference to “violence” dilutes whatever good point you may have been trying to make. of course the US backs violence and others back violence against us.
Let’s banish any kind of petty moralizing from our discussions of these happenings, or they will be as tiresome as was the petty moralizing here last month.
“…the reference to “violence” dilutes whatever good point you may have been trying to make.”
Does it? (I don’t think so.)
“On this day in 2011, an Obama-ordered, CIA drone strike killed 16 year-old Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, an American citizen, his teenage cousin, & 5 other civilians as they were eating at an outdoor cafe in Southern Yemen.””
https://twitter.com/Americas_Crimes/status/1051560048974069760
Someone:
“… they come back to haunt us.”
*************
No they don’t, oh platitude King. No blowback from the Confederacy, the Kaiser, Hitler, Hirohito or Ho Chi Minh. Al-Qaeda and Isis in ruins. Saddam gone and Israel stronger than ever. Not even a Barbary Pirate around.
Said by a man who clearly doesn’t understand the meaning of blowback — or the real consequences of war.
The real consequence of war is that somebody wins and somebody loses. You don’t like the outcome so you fantasize that the losers are the winners. It’s what losers — and their supporters — do. It lets them sleep at night.
Out of curiosity, who won The Korean War?
The most common outcome from war is stalemate of the status quo ante. From the time of Napoleon to the time of Hitler, The French and The Germans fought five wars against one another. The average interval between those wars was, IIRC, roughly twenty-six years–or about once every generation.
No war is won until the combatants stop fighting the damned war over and over again.
L4D:
“No war is won until the combatants stop fighting the damned war over and over again.”
*********************
Wrong, war is over when the combatants cease hostilities. Period. We’re primates, war is a natural state not some artificial or transitory state of man thus we never stop fighting “over and over” again. War is determined viable when one side believes its interests are served by war and when they judge the spoils greater than the risks of annihilation. Victory is determined by whose goals were accomplished. We won the Korean War when we stopped the Communists from overrunning South Korea. Looks like Trump is winning it again when reunification is being discussed. The wars on ISIS and Al Qeada were won when they were rendered powerless to substantially attack us. We will always fight to defend ourselves. Hence the notion of “blowback” is a facile look at the world affairs.
e’re primates, war is a natural state not some artificial or transitory state of man thus we never stop fighting “over and over” again. War is determined viable when one side believes its interests are served by war and when they judge the spoils greater than the risks of annihilation.
WELL SAID MESPO
You’re arguing that the interest of the belligerents is to perpetuate their belligerence. Thus, you’re also arguing that whole and sole object of war is a perpetual state of war itself. First the war is on. Second the war is off. Third the war is never won, because the war is a perpetual state of war. Whence the war is never lost because the war is a perpetual state of war. And you have unmitigated audacity to pin the blame for this hopeless miasma of yours on Pan Troglodytes, because you’re perpetually incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions.
Mespo said, “We won the Korean War . . .”
Have you cleared your goal-post moving definition of victory at war with Trump?
Victory at war requires that 1) our enemy must surrender to us on our terms; 2) our enemy must become our friend on our terms at some point along the way after the enemy surrenders to us on our terms. Those conditions were satisfied for Japan and Germany following the Second World War. Niether of those conditions has been satisfied by North Korea following the cessation of hostilities in The Korean War. And there are occasional instances of armed combatants shooting at one another across the heavily defended and fortified border separating South Korea from North Korea.
Maybe Mespo should stick with conducting Gettysburg seminars.
L4D:
You need to read less Mao and more Von Clausewitz: “victory, when one side has achieved the maximum possible military advantage relative to the available resources and feasible political aims.” For some reason, I find him more credible on the topic.
This sounds like the empty headed Anonymous who is afraid of her own icon. Does she understand the meaning of blowback? No. Does she understand the consequences of action or inaction? No. She’s just an anonymous poster that doesn’t even have the integrity of owning her own icon.
kind of like an NPC
orange man bad
believe women
refugees welcome
rape culture
You just described almost every Liberal on the list, no matter how many aliases they have.
The women are cheating and winning. It’s so unfair. Who the blazes taught the women how to cheat and win? It clearly wasn’t George with his “end incoherent affirmative action hysteria; repeal The Nineteenth Amendment now” exhortation.
Maybe it was some girly-man like Trump who taught the women how to cheat and win. It’s so unfair.
Diane, Liberal stupid women cheat but they don’t win. They eventually lose for themselves or for their daughters (and others). You must have a very low opinion of women, but most women are not like you. They actually are complete persons.You are a characterization of the loony female..
It’s another one of Diane’s sock-puppets. Darren really should hose this place down.
Get thee to the nearest pillory, old deluded one who has posted with numerous aliases. This is to old Tabby from someone who isn’t Diane.
They get especially testy whenever Trump screws up. Trump has been screwing up left and right, hand over fist the whole way through. Their desperation is slowly reifying into a concrete object known as The Crock of Cockamamie (nee FUBAR).
Everything Tabarrok always ever wanted for Christmas from Santa Trump has been wagered on the table. And the only way to receive the goods is to assert executive privilege over grand jury evidence presented in Mueller’s final report. Except that Mueller will present his evidence through indicments over which no executive privilege can be asserted. And the assertion of executive privilege over Mueller’s final report will be thoroughly bogus anyhow.
Whence they’ll just have to make do with their beloved Crock of Cockamamie (nee FUBAR).
Mespo said, “Al-Qaeda and Isis in ruins.”
Al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) is alive and well and stirring up trouble for The Saudis,The Emiratis and, get this, The Houthis in Yemen whom the Saudis and The Emiratis are fighting. Yemen is now the new Afghanistan circa 1992 through 2001. Remember where Al Qaeda holed up whilst plotting the September Eleventh terrorist attacks. Remember how long it took to reach a reduction in force agreement with The Afghans that allowed us to pull most our troops out from our longest war ever so far.
When you neglect to read the articles to which anonymous links us, it is you who end up posting platitudes that would have us imagine that losing in the present and the future will be just as good as all of our winning in the past. Now there’s your fantasy for you.
“When you neglect to read the articles to which anonymous links us…”
Anonymous is like a library. A dead cavernous space filled with books but in her case selected citations, read without comprehension.
An Elephant never forgets. And neither does anonymous.
Allanucklehead is a rat who never remembers. Every day is a new T-maze for Allanucklehead.
Thank you Diane, an elephant never forgets and Anonymous would be lucky if she could be as smart as an elephant.
and the Taliban who will never quit will eventually win that war.
which is why our special envoy went behind the Afgan presidents back to talk to them
losing a war in afghanistan is almost mandatory for a great power; now we are having our turn at it.
that’s ok, make an orderly withdrawal, if we can be friends with the knuckle dragging Saudis for decades then we can have a decent truce with the Taliban for sure
So the whole and sole object of America’s longest running war ever, thus far, is, according to HoD, to lose to The Taliban so that we can have a decent truce with The Taliban. Tell it to the brave men and women of the armed forces of the United States–including, especially, the ones who died in Afghanistan. Or tell it to our military families, instead–including, especially, the ones who lost sons, daughters, husbands, wives, fathers and mothers in Afghanistan.
The persistence of failed States such as Afghanistan is no reason to proliferate the failure of States such as Yemen or Lebanon that used to be successful States. To do so for the sake of perpetuating endless war in the name defense industry jobs, jobs, jobs [read: dividends, dividends, dividends] is gruesome and gory beyond belief.
Anonymous said, (or otherwise quoted someone else as saying), “The thing about these wars and other violent actions — is that they always come home — in one way or another; they come back to haunt us.”
Agreed. Afghanistan after the Soviet/Afghan war was very similar to what Yemen is like now. We already know what came out of Afghanistan to haunt us here at home. The question going forward is what, exactly will come out of Yemen to haunt us here at home one way or another and when?
I just gave you examples of when it doesn’t come home. “Always” is a big word.
Your examples were all conventional wars fought against conventional Nation-States deploying conventional forces. That sort of thinking is precisely why we could not win in Vietnam. Know thine enemy. And catch up with the future, already.
Correction: Mespo’s allusion to The First and Second Barbary Wars is strongly analogous to asymmetric warfare involving irregular forces inhabiting failed states. However, it would be an extremely persnickety instance of excessive literalism to say that The Barbary Wars never came home because all of the kidnapped Americans were captured at sea.
barbary wars were a good example actually quite apt and the excessive literalism is on late’s side not mespo’s.
If they can kidnap our people “over there,” then according to Mespo and HoD, those kidnapped Americans are NOT an example of the “blowback” coming home. Because the phrase “coming home” is to be interpreted in the excessively literal sense only.
speaking of whom the Saudis saw up one dissident and it’s an outrage for the Democratic party boosting mass media
but the Chinese lock up a million Uighers for being Muslims and the Democratic party boosting mass media just ignores it
maybe that’s because a) the Chinese by which I mean the PRC Chicoms have emplaced spies in Dem offices like Difi of CA and b) the Chinese actually own more and more mass media and Hollywood operations themselves and c) the Chinese have been giving big money to Democrats like BIll Clinton for decades and d) Silicon Valley wants to penetrate PRC markets but they are locked out and some naive suckers like Suckerberg think the kiss PRC butts hard enough they will let them in LOLZ
oh wait FINALLY it makes the NYT
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/18/world/asia/uighur-muslims-china-detainment.html
Not to be forgotten:
“American Values
@Americas_Crimes
On this day in 2011, an Obama-ordered, CIA drone strike killed 16 year-old Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, an American citizen, his teenage cousin, & 5 other civilians as they were eating at an outdoor cafe in Southern Yemen.”
https://twitter.com/Americas_Crimes/status/1051560048974069760
Obama was tough, had some really scary model airplanes, racked up a lot of kills with em.