Bizarre, Congress, Media

SOTU Games: Trump Drops Speech After Pelosi Drops Pretense

We previously discussed the controversy over the State of the Union. I view both sides as irresponsible in this dispute. I previously objected to Speaker Nancy Pelosi using a clearly manufactured excuse of security. After Trump confirmed that security was not an issue, Pelosi simply dropped the pretense and disinvited the President. The media was virtually silent about the earlier misrepresentation and misuse of the security rationale. Trump then dropped plans to give the speech and seemed to morph into Jack Nicholson and saying that “Nancy” cannot handle the truth. The problem is that that line was given by a trapped, unhinged perjurer in A Few Good Men. We are left not only without a SOTU but no leader in sight on this issue. Frankly, most of us cannot handle the truth about both parties and their apparent priorities.

Pelosi sent her original letter on January 16 raising security reasons as the only barrier to the SOTU. Once the security rationale was eliminated, she then refused to invite the president due to the shutdown.

Trump responded by saying Pelosi had cancelled the speech “because she doesn’t want to hear the truth . . . She’s afraid of the truth . . . She doesn’t want the American public to see what’s going on.”

Trump later said that he would wait to give the speech on the House floor. It was a smart move. A speech anywhere else would have made Trump look less presidential.

None of this does a thing to end this ridiculous and harmful shutdown. We have now expended more money than what was demanded for the wall. That is the illogical state in which we live as citizens with leaders who act solely for their insular political interests.

191 thoughts on “SOTU Games: Trump Drops Speech After Pelosi Drops Pretense”

  2. Who really wants to listen to the Orange One, ADD to his more than 7000 lies at a SOTU address.
    We all know he can’t live without an audience, even if they BOO him, it’s still ATTENTION and he’s
    feeding off that.

    If he had run as a Democrat, which he was for years he’d be impeached, by now. We need a third Party in the U.S. The Republicans have shown themselves to be ENABLERS. SICK, DRIED UP OLD PRUNES.
    THEY HAVE SOLDBTHEIR DOULS, ON THIS LUNATIC.

    2. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq2h-J63moo
      Anyone is free to participate in the “last refuge of scoundrels” game.
      So as a “true American Patriot”, as our All-Star often likes to refer to himself, I’ ll see his Colin Powell and raise him a Kate Smith.
      If anyone wants to join in for higher stakes, there’s a good selection of John Phillip Sousa songs you can round up and post as a stake.
      Also, multiple renditions of our national anthem, America to Beautiful, etc.
      I know that many have the capacity to be competitive in this game; “we can do it”.
      Don’t allow yourselves to be “outpatriotsized”.😉😁

      1. Blast from the past at the link below. House Republicans obstructed a plan for $40 Billion worth of border security in 2013.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/25/us/politics/senate-endorses-proposal-calling-for-extra-border-security-measures.html

        Jun 24, 2013 … June 24, 2013 … But the solid bipartisan support for the border security proposal by two … “The bill has been improved dramatically tonight by this vote, there’s no question … Their amendment will also require a $3.2 billion high-tech border …. Security benefits, as well as from receiving federal welfare funds.

        1. Excerpted from the article linked above:

          The 67-to-27 vote prevented any filibuster of the plan to devote roughly $40 billion over the next decade to border enforcement measures, including nearly doubling the number of border agents to 40,000 and completing 700 miles of fencing.

        2. Another excerpt from the article linked above:

          Any final bill passed by the Senate will head to the Republican-controlled House, where it already faces vocal opposition. Speaker John A. Boehner has publicly said that he will not bring any immigration bill up for a vote that does not have the support of a majority of House Republicans. That decision pleased the conservative wing of his caucus but also raises hurdles for any broad immigration bill in the House, where many Republicans oppose any pathway to citizenship.

        3. One last excerpt from the article linked above:

          Despite a clamoring for stronger border security from many Republicans in the Senate and the House, some leading Republicans dug in against the plan, and a majority of Senate Republicans did not vote to take up the measure.

          Senator John Cornyn of Texas, the No. 2 Republican in the Senate, said that he could not “support an amendment cobbled together at the 11th hour,” and warned, “The underlying bill puts symbolism over substance and they’re hoping the American people won’t notice.”

    3. Normally agree with you but Powell is no hero and it can’t be said often enough. If Iraq is investigated, Powell won’t fair well.

  4. Trump tapped into his animal spirits on this one and acted like big dog conceding bone to small dog at little or no cost.

  5. Turley wrote, “A speech anywhere else would have made Trump look less presidential.”

    Turley concluded, “We have now expended more money than what was demanded for the wall. That is the illogical state in which we live as citizens with leaders who act solely for their insular political interests.”

    In the first place, it is not possible to make Trump look presidential, at all, let alone less presidential. And even if it were possible to make Trump look more presidential, the point would remain that Trump still has actually to become presidential rather than merely looking presidential.

    As for the second place, the plural “s” clearly does not belong on the term “leader” in Turley’s peroration. Trump owns this lockout (government shutdown). Trump, himself, boasted about his ownership of this lockout. Trump could’ve had his boondoggle wall shortly before the last time Trump held a government shutdown. Instead, Trump made disparaging remarks about “people from ‘pit-latrine’ countries.” [Note: ‘pit-latrine’ is not the actual word Trump used.] Remember: The previous Trump lockout occurred because the House Freedom Caucus insisted upon, amongst other things, reducing or eliminating the lottery system for asylum seekers from the aforementioned ‘pit-latrine’ countries and Trump played along with them on that ploy. And that’s why Trump didn’t get the funding for his boondoggle wall when Republicans held both Houses of Congress. Trump did not lead his own party on Trump’s signature campaign promise when Trump had a chance to do so last time around. And that means that Trump, himself, does not want Trump’s boondoggle wall.

    If you simply must bellyache about the “illogical state in which we live,” then you simply must make more effective use of the memory capacity of the organ that is responsible for logic.

    1. Speaking to Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer in the Oval Office, Trump said on December 11, “I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. … I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it.”

  6. It clearly evident, by most of the comments here, that Turley’s statement about you idiots “not being able to handle the truth”, being in denial, is still in full force.

    You morons sit around and whine, point fingers, watch propaganda TV, and drink the koolaid by the gallons.

    You make even the slightest intellectual want to _______. In the end, I hope you get what you want, you totally deserve it. May you suffer, as you are making others suffer now.

  7. I am changing my name on the website to Maddog. I am one mad dog over the demise of the Democrat Party. We need a new Party. We need a new guy like Lincoln to come along and form a Party. No more Whigs, no more Dems. No more Pelosi making us swim to the other side.

      1. Liberty 2nd —> Maddog even though Liberty never told us who he changed from. Autumn has a different name and it isn’t her husband’s.

  8. Suppose there is no state of the union address. Maybe Trump should just put it on the editorial page of the Wall Stret Journal and just be done with it.

  9. NO CONSERVATIVES IN GENERATIONAL PIPELINE

    REPUBLICANS MUST MODERATE OR FADE-OUT WITH BOOMERS

    Generation Z is one of the most ethnically diverse and progressive age groups in American history. People born after 1996 tend to espouse similar views to the age cohort just ahead of them, the Millennials, but they are far more open to social change than older generations have been, according to the findings of a new report by the Pew Research Center. The findings mark a shift that could substantially reshape the nation’s political and economic landscape.

    According to the study — which was based on online surveys of 920 youths aged 13 to 17 and nearly 11,000 adults 18 or older — only 30 percent of Generation Z respondents said they approved of President Trump’s performance; more than half believed humans were fueling climate change; and 70 percent said they wanted the government to do more to solve the nation’s problems. Those views roughly mirror attitudes held by Millennials, and together, the two age groups may add up to a powerful voting bloc at odds with Republican orthodoxy, political scientists say.

    “This should be an alert to the Republican Party as they think about generational replacement,” said Elizabeth Bennion, a professor of political science at Indiana University South Bend.

    Each succeeding generation of Americans tends to be more progressive than those that came before, Ms. Bennion noted, a trend that potentially poses a long-term threat to the Republican Party’s power.

    Democrats of all ages tend to align fairly closely on major social and political issues, but the report highlights a sharp generational divide among Republicans. For example, more than half of the youngest Republicans surveyed said that racial and ethnic diversity was good for American society, a view shared by fewer than 40 percent of their Millennial counterparts, 34 percent of Generation Xers and just three in 10 baby boomers.

    More than 68 million Americans belong to Generation Z, representing about 22 percent of the nation’s population, according to 2017 survey data from the United States Census Bureau — a share larger than the Millennials’ and second only to the baby boomers’.

    Contrary to conventional wisdom, Americans’ political and social views do not tend to drift to the right as they age, according to Kim Parker, who oversees research into social demographic trends at the Pew Research Center.

    “The differences we see across age groups have more to do with the unique historical circumstances in which they come of age,” she said, noting that demographers have not seen a generational pattern of growing more conservative or more Republican over time.

    Edited from: “Young Voters Keep Moving Left On Social Issues, Republicans Included”

    Today’s NEW YORK TIMES

        1. Yeah, that was largely attributed to it’s “Never-Trump Crusade”.
          The author, Phillip Terzian, has not gone out of business, but may be semi-retired since he’s in his late 60s.
          In any case, the folding of a publication, by itself, has nothing to do with whether a particle article is valid or not.

          1. Tom, the current Republican party is heavily dependent on aging Whites in outer suburbs and small cities. Common sense suggests they will age out with the Boomers.

            So the question is: “Where is the next generation of Republicans?”

            This is good time to raise that question. Our two youngest generations, The Millennials and Generation ‘Z’ will remember the Trump years as chaotic and dysfunctional.

            In that regard this government shutdown is the most bone-headed move any President could make. A savvy politician would find a way out long before it went this far.

            1. We can go over and debate demographic details and the impact of those details endlessly.
              There’s no shortage of raw data out there that can be mined to support one view or the opposite view of the future of a political party.
              Your almost exclusive focus on millenials and Gen. Zs ignore the overall graying of America, and the fact that the 50-64 and 65+ age are, percentage-wise, the fastest growing demographic age group.
              I’ve read a fairly large number of articles on this topic, and have shifted through census data; there is nothing close to predicting a clear, certain outcome to be found in the data, and really no dominant argument in the opinion/ editorial pieces about the future fate of either party.

              2. Tom, yeah, seniors are the fastest-growing group. But as a voting base, they’re ‘dead-enders’, so to speak.

                The oldest Millennials are approaching 40. Millennials will soon be ‘The Establishment’ in terms of management and leadership. Where does that leave Republicans?

                Republicans have to moderate on social issues.

                Republicans must offer (or accept) a comprehensive healthcare system.

                Republicans must recognize Climate Change and cooperate in planning.

                But, more than anything, Republicans must find ways to connect with women and minorities.

                These adjustments should be no hardship if Republicans want to survive beyond the 2020’s.

                But is right-wing media flexible enough to change with the times?

                1. I think when you said that the voting base of seniors 65+`were dead-enders,
                  I’m assuming that you mean that they won’t live forever, and will have diminishing clout.
                  I’m just trying to clarify what your point was. I would agree that they are probably not immortal, but I’m just trying to see if I interpreted your comment correctly.

                  1. The 55+ generation, mostly “baby boomer”, were not born as Republicans or conservatives.
                    When they were in a younger demographic group, they were, on the whole, pretty liberal.
                    If, as noted, the older demographic groups have less clout as they die off, then will the millenials and those in other age groups stay the same age?
                    I can’t see how that could happen, where you pull the senior demographic group out of the equation as they die off, and assume that millenials won’t age into that senior demographic?
                    Assumptions based on suspending the aging process for one group, as the other, older group disappears due to dying off doesn’t make a lot of sense.
                    Neither does the assumption that a demographic age group that holds a certain set of political views will set those views in cement throughout their lifetimes.
                    That goes back to comments I made in the first two sentences.

                    1. Tom, there were a lot of redneck hippies in the 1970’s. I knew more than a few. So it’s a generalization to say that all hippies were liberals. Boomers in the South, Southwest and Midwest were probably conservative all along, even if they looked like hippies.

                      What’s more, that New York Times article notes that people are no longer becoming conservative with age, if indeed they ever did. I know i’m not. I was more conservative in college than I am today.

                    2. “It’s a generalization to say that all hippies were liberals”.
                      I never even said that, or anything like that.
                      And, as always, I appreciate you suggesting that I did say that, so you could respond to something I didn’t say.
                      That’s a handy stunt.

                2. gay marriage: dead issue. conservatives know this….a lot of things are like that… for now, it’s mostly coming down to immigrants versus natives.

                  Democrats are pushing the demographic replacement of whites

                  the population wouldn’t reliably elect them, so they’re electing a new population

                  will it work? or will it end in Yugoslavia style civil war? time will tell

      2. For decades, our political spectrum has been moved slowly to left from the leftist demoncratic party from Moscow!!! Coimmies intent to take our country with no ,shots being fired was to gain control of one or both political ,parties, control the media, control schools and many more strategic political moves. This is available on the internet. It is time for Americans to wake up before we lose our country to power to me people like Pelosi and Schumer!!!!

    2. on you missed the Catholic school boys with pro life moms. you may underestimate what’s coming.

    3. you also may overestimate how hispanics here three generations and out may vote
      a lot of them will assimilate into the white native conservative type population,
      look at texas

      Asians a few generations in, may also drift into the conservative native masses

      basically the growth plan for Democrats comes down to one thing: new influx from migrants. just like before times

  10. Democrats are willing to shut down the government in their fight to protect and perpetuate illegal immigration. They aren’t fighting to keep their own front doors unlocked; they’re fighting to force all of ours to be left unlocked. They live behind walls in gated secure communities, with security at taxpayer expense.

    It is beyond irresponsible not to force all immigration to go through legal channels, thorough vetting, and control the quantity to numbers that our resources and land can sustain. People from the Middle East cross illegally. Illegal immigration funnels billions of dollars into drug cartel’s bank accounts, which strengthens their drug and gun running and human trafficking. We enable a rape trail gauntlet by leaving the door open.

    An imposing barrier would discourage some people from trying the journey at all. How many kids’ lives would be saved, how many rapes prevented, if we made it clear that illegal immigration is highly unlikely to be successful from now on? From now on, if an adult illegally immigrates, they will be forever barred from the country. That would be a deterrent.

    We have encouraged illegal immigration, but now we have to be responsible and stop this.

    Walls don’t work? Then why are we legally required to fence in pools? Why do we fence in schools? Why do we roll down locked gates over businesses? Why are bank vaults behind locked doors? Why did we pay for a wall in Jordan? Why did improving our border wall in some areas reduce illegal immigration and drugs? Why does the wall help Israel reduce terrorist attacks?

    Stop the rhetoric. Democrats are holding the government hostage (to use their own parlance) in order to perpetuate illegal immigration at the cost of American citizens and our invited guests.

    This should be a difficult call. Fund the wall and other border security measures. Get a backbone and protect our country. Make everyone take the safe route to the front door.

    1. If Nancy Pelosi thinks walls are immoral, then she should tear down that stone wall around her winery that prevents people driving past her gate, tear down the gate, and take the lock off her front door. Then bus in a whole bunch of illegal immigrants to camp out in her neighborhood and go to the local schools, causing test scores to plummet because the numbers are just too high to manage.

      The coastal elites are protected from the consequences their policies force on us rabble.

        1. Trump got elected President on his promise to build the wall. Support for border security is strong, although the Dems have done an effective job as proclaiming the wall xenophobic to its voters. How strange. Is locking your front door xenophobic? Having a fenced in backyard?

          In any case, I wonder what people will think if there is another illegal alien terrorist attack. They have already stopped some people with terror ties illegally crossing, as well as thousands of others from countries with high terrorism support and unknown backgrounds. How many slipped past? Guess we’ll find out if some of those are going to commit the next 9/11. Then there will be lots of finger pointing, and wailing, and wishing we could go back in time and secure our border to keep the bad guys out.

          Squander the opportunity to protect the people, and pay for it later.

          If you build a wall to keep people in, you have a prison. If you build a wall to keep people safe, you have a responsible, caring country. It’s like tucking your kids in safe with all the windows and doors locked. It’s not because you think everyone outside is a murderer or robber; it’s because some of them are.

          The Democratic Party is being completely irresponsible. What’s so unfair is that everyone has to pay for what they are doing. Whether you agree or disagree with them, everyone pays for illegal immigration. The next terrorist attack won’t select for the people who enabled it to happen. We are all at risk because of the power mad Democrat Party.

          1. Well saidfor both comments, Karen. Ought to send your comments to the Opinion page of the NYT, WP, AND WSJ.

        2. you exagerrate the polls first of all
          second of all, people lie to polls.
          thirdly, pollsters amplify the lie with their own biases

    2. Speaking to Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer in the Oval Office, Trump said on December 11, “I am proud to shut down the government for border security, Chuck. … I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I’m not going to blame you for it.”

      Karen S says: January 24, 2019 at 8:08 PM

      Democrats are willing to shut down the government in their fight to protect and perpetuate illegal immigration.

      Obviously everything Trump says goes in one of Karen S’s ears and comes out the other of Karen S’s ears without leaving any lasting impression upon Karen S’s memory.

      1. Parent says to teen, “I’m shutting down your social life, phone included, until you shape up and do all your chores properly.”

        1. That’s not what Pelosi told Trump. Pelosi told Trump that Trump was not invited to the House of Representatives to deliver the SOTU address.

          But you’re pretty close to the mark on Trump’s arrested development. The teens start at thirteen. And that’s only three years older than Trump’s developmental age–ten.

      2. Democrats refused to fund more miles of physical barrier at the border, with additional security measures. They claimed it was immoral to do so, requiring their followers to completely disengage their cerebral cortex, because they recently built several hundred miles of wall in the US and Jordan.

        Trump refused to pass the budget without funding for the border wall, which would trigger a government shutdown. Dems’ position was, great, shut it down them, because we’re not budging. WE WILL NOT FUND A WAll AND IF THE GOVERNMENT SHUTS DOWN, GREAT, IT’S TO OUR POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. They play with peoples’ lives over politics and go on vacation. It’s like keeping our front door wide open while theirs is gated, locked, and guarded. They have taxpayer funded security the rest of us don’t.

        Dems won’t fund a border wall because it was one of Trump’s foundational campaign promises that got him elected. They have to prevent him from getting that victory. In addition, they enable illegal immigration because they court the Latino vote. They have a super majority now in CA because of it. Illegal immigration changed the politics of one of the most populous states in the Union. Some illegals voted illegally, some got amnesty and voted legally, they had kids here who voted legally, and they have friends and family here who vote legally. They have become a very powerful political voting bloc.

        While Dems play oneupmanship, meanwhile there are illegal aliens committing rape and murder who would not be here if there was a comprehensive border security that included a physical barrier. There are kids getting raped because of this temptation to come over as leverage to get their parents allowed to stay. Women get raped on the illegal immigration trail. Billions funnel to the coffers of the Mexican drug cartels that run these human smuggling operations. Pregnant women die in childbirth trying to time it just right to have a baby here. Influxes of unskilled workers depress entry level wages. We spend billions on illegal immigration, and our courts are tied up for years. Terrorists and those from terrorist regions illegally immigrate. We are going to pay for this and it will be so bad.

        This is totally irresponsible to everyone involved. Support for illegal immigration is unequivocally, squarely, hung around Democrats necks like the Albatross of the Ancient Mariner.

        You do not play with people’s lives like this. It takes a breathtaking naïveté on the part of American voters to condone this behavior.

  11. Turley wrote: “… that line was given by a trapped, unhinged perjurer. ”

    Glad you’re finally acknowledging the obvious.

  12. $22 Trillion – since 1964 spent on the welfare state to fund parasites.

    $4.4 Trillion – on the current U.S. budget which is overwhelmingly redistribution to parasites.

    $5 Billion – a miserly amount for a security fence (like Obama and Hillary put up around their houses).
    _________________________________________________________________

    The American Founders claimed “TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.”

    The parasitic 45% of Americans who don’t pay taxes enjoy “REPRESENTATION WITHOUT TAXATION.”

    Karl Marx would be proud of this spectacular achievement and the envy and covetousness of his thuggish gang members.

    The American Founders would wonder what the —- their posterity did – why they transferred dominion to the forces of hysteria and incoherence.

    Ben Franklin, we gave you “…a republic, if you can keep it.”

    Abraham Lincoln, “America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”

    Old “Crazy Abe” would know. He nullified the Constitution, usurped the power of the legislative branch, commenced an undeclared war of aggression against a sovereign foreign nation, confiscated private property, suspended Habeas Corpus, ruled as a brutal, tyrannical and oppressive dictator and began the very destruction of the principles of the Constitution and America that he prophesied.

  13. Mr. Turley claims that “Trump then dropped plans to give the speech and seemed to morph into Jack Nicholson and saying that “Nancy” cannot handle the truth. The problem is that that line was given by a trapped, unhinged perjurer in A Few Good Men.”

    These statements are misleading for a couple of reasons.

    First, President Trump said that Pelosi is “afraid of the truth,” not that she “can’t handle the truth.” Words matter, and what the President actually words meant, in effect, was that Pelosi didn’t want the American public to hear the truth about border security.

    Second, although this famous and effective movie line is often falsely attributed to Aaron Sorkin, the playwright and screenwriter of A Few Good Men, the line “you can’t handle the truth” was actually improvised by Jack Nicholson. Sorkin’s original line was “You already have the truth,” a much weaker line from a character and dramatic standpoint than Nicholson’s brilliant and memorable revision to the script.

    Third, Pelosi was the person who actually morphed into Jack Nicholson’s character when she said years ago that then Majority Leader Eric Cantor “can’t handle the truth.” So, Pelosi, not Trump, is the actual person who used the line that Mr. Turley said was used by a “trapped, unhinged perjurer in A Few Good Men.”

  14. Pelosi is now the leader of the Democratic Party. This is the worst leader we have ever had in our party. I am joining the Independent Party. We need a Speaker of The House. Nancy is the Speaker of The Outhouse. Too bad, so sad, I’m mad.
    -Mad Dog!

  15. “After Trump confirmed that security was not an issue,”
    Anything Trump says is suspect. How many unpaid workers does it take to provide security for the SOTU? Maybe Wilbur Ross told him that security won’t be a problem because workers aren’t really being hurt by the shutdown, or maybe the imaginary voices contacting Trump saying they don’t mind not getting their checks and for him to hold out for the wall. The actual cost of completing Trump’s wall is closer to $100 Billion, what stunt will he pull to get the rest of the money?

    1. Enigma, it appears that Trump is running out of stunts for wall funding. That is ‘why’ this shutdown persists; ‘Trump is running out of stunts’.

    2. Pelosi doesn’t even want enhanced wall where the experts say it should go. Even Mark Warner just said he was in favor of that. Most Americans are. Most Americans respect borders and want ours respected, too.

      1. Mr Kurtz – Be careful when you say, “Most Americans.” Unless you are listening to Trump lies. Most Americans; don’t want the shutdown, don’t want the wall (although they do want border security), and don’t want Trump. Trump has lost 8 points in the polls since December. Every spokesperson for the administration is tone deaf to the people suffering. There have been at least three, “let them eat cake” moments.
        I think Trump can help his cause by doing some of the following:
        1. Give the SOTU from the ballroom of the Trump International Hotel. Ivanka can negotiate the same rates she did for the inauguration and he can clean up.
        2. Go to the Super Bowl in Atlanta. I was at a Super Bowl in Atlanta (working) when Vice-President Gore attended and it totally screwed up activity for those trying to use the concourse or exit for a period because of security concerns. That plus all the people trying to fly out on Monday with limited TSA screeners should be great for him.
        3. Hand out food at Mar-a-lago, but set up a wall on the bridge leading to the estate so no one can actually get the food. Kinda like applying for asylum.
        Not to be totally non-responsive to your comment. Where exactly do the experts say an enhanced wall should go and what is the cost. Related question… what “experts.” Jared? Ivana? Rudy?

        1. What does Border security mean without a physical barrier? Does it mean sending out Border Patrol to physically interact with swarms of illegal immigrants, throwing tear gas? Does it mean that drones monitor a whole bunch of people overwhelming Border Patrol? Remember that commercial about credit protection? Do you want someone who just monitors your credit? (There’s a robbery.) Or do you want someone who protects you?

          How would you secure a border? Please explain:

          A) Why is a security fence immoral or wrong at the border? For a fence to be immoral, that must mean that it prevents people from crossing, and allowing all to pass is the right thing to do.
          B) Why should we allow any illegal immigration, and support illegal immgrants with benefits programs, rather than requiring everyone to go through legal channels and get permission to immigrate, going through background checks?
          C) What does “border security” mean to you if you oppose a fence?
          D) If you oppose a fence, do you wish us to tear down existing barriers? If new fencing is immoral and wrong, then existing fencing must also be so. What do you expect the result of tearing down existing fencing will be?
          E) What do you think would happen if we built a secure fence/border that is difficult to scale across our border, manned with patrols? What would be the effect on illegal crossings?
          F) What do you think would happen if we tore down all fencing?

          1. Your argument presumes what I am for and what I am against. I don’t oppose a strong border, I oppose a policy which doesn’t allow anyone to actually seek asylum (from some countries), especially when we (America) helped create some of the conditions they are fleeing from. Trump’s request for 5.7 Billion when it would take twenty times that to build a wall/barrier serving the whole Southern border would do what? What will he withhold in order to get the next 5 Billion, and the next 5 Billion after that? What happened to Mexico paying for the wall? Trump has done to the debt what no Democrat would have been allowed to do and Republicans just look away. Trump says he won’t be there when it all crashes. His tax cuts only served the rich. This wall only serves Sean, Rush, and Ann.

            1. Enigma,..
              You should review the years of One $ Trillion Dollar deficits during the Obama Administration, and ( roughly) the doubling of the debt from $10 Trillion to $20 Trillion during his 8 years.
              Your statement that “no Democrat would be allowed to do” that is not correct.
              There are now very few deficit hawk/ fiscal restraint candidates in politics; don’t pretend that this isn’t a bipartisan phenomenon.

              1. In Obama’s first years, revenue was significantly down due to the recession he inherited, he spent a lot of money in stimulation to save the country, contributing a lot to defense. The savings attributed to the Affordable Care Act did’t start occuring until later years in his term, helped greatly by Republican obstructionism.
                Trump gave money to the rich, revenue is way down and spending way up on things like sending thousands of troops to the border to look like he was doing something before the election.

                1. The first fiscal year deficit in the Obama Administration is more accurately considered the last Bush 43 deficit.
                  An incoming administration doesn’t set or influence the existing F.year budget, so I’ll give you that one.
                  And I think that is generally considered a proper “allocation of blame’ for a deficit.
                  The other points you made trying to excuse the deficits of the Obama years are not convincing.
                  The spending binge and the TAX CUTS were, overall, the dominant drivers of Obama year deficits.
                  At least the multiple ” stimulus packages” went toward shovel-ready, infrasture projects😒, so we no longer have to face up to the infrastructure spending issue.
                  It was things like “cash for clunkers”, tax cuts, home buyer subsidies ( I sold a house where the buyer needed every penny of that $10,000 in “free money” to purchase the property), and other goodies that ate up the bulk of funds during those speding binges.
                  The main fiscal impact of ObamaCare seems to be on MediCaid spending; the looser qualifying thresholds contributed greatly to a jump from c.50,000,000 on MediCaid to c.70,000,000 on MC during the course of the Obama years.
                  That increase was hardly due to “Republican obstructionism”.
                  So while we can “throw out ” that first year deficit that technically coincided with Obama’s first year, the other debt/ deficit factors were primarily due to Obama policies largely supported or condoned by a compliant Congress.

                  1. Tom, Afghanistan and Iraq, combined with Bush tax cuts, drove the debt and deficits all through the Bush-Obama years.

                    One should pause here to note that Bush became the first president ever to cut taxes ‘before’ going to war. Historically presidents always felt obliged to ‘raise taxes’ for war.

                    Eisenhower wanted to see World War II paid for before his generation died. That was responsible thinking.

                    And ‘yes’ the Great Recession was a huge debt bomb. Obama’s stimulus was really a bailout of the states. California, Florida, New York, Illinois, and Arizona were all in serious trouble. Those are all major states. Had any of them declared bankruptcy, it would have crashed the markets further.

                    Obviously Obama couldn’t call his package “A Bailout Of The States”. That name alone would have spooked investors!

                    So Obama called it a ‘Stimulus Package’. But anyone paying attention knew it was bailout. States were overwhelmed by the Great Recession.

                    This brings us to aging Boomers, a trend Republicans blamed on Obama. Beginning in 2011 Baby Boomers began retiring. And their retirements showed up immediately on Social Security and Medicare rolls. That surged the deficit.

                    Aging Boomers should have been no surprise to any policy maker. Reagan adjusted Social Security taxes in anticipation of Boomer retirements. And Al Gore kept mentioning it during the 2000 campaign.

                    Here again the Bush tax cuts were completely inappropriate. The Treasury needed to plan for retiring Boomers. Instead Bush ran up the deficit ‘before’ Boomers retired. It was mindlessly stupid!

                    Paul Ryan acknowledged retiring Boomers in his effort to privatize Medicare and Social Security. Because those programs were a threat to all the tax cuts he planned!

                    Ryan, by the way, just left Congress with a national approval rate of only 12%. So much for Paul and all his privatization schemes.

                    1. After an extremely frustrating and non-productive exchange with you on budget/ tax/ deficit issues a few weeks ago, I’m not going to waste my time.
                      You are about as clueless on those issues as anyone in these threads, and seem to think that your revisions of economic history are fact, and that your fairy tale fiscal alchemy “solutions” are the answer.
                      I don’t like wasting my time with foolish propagandists who don’t know what the **** they’re talking about.
                      Not real fond of your tactic of lying through your teeth, either, as the “summation” for your propaganda speil.

                    2. Tom, I have no idea why you’re so deeply offended. There are no lies whatsoever in what I wrote.

                      The fact is that deficit was surged by stupid tax cuts. And I believe Enigma noted that.

                    3. Yeah, you did lie at the end of that exchange.
                      The pathetic ignorance and evasiveness that you displayed throughout that “debate” were bad enough, but when you added lying to that at the end, that was the topper.
                      If you were not so busy preaching the gospel of St. Peter and running the HHHNN, you wouldn’t have a problem figuring out why I called you on it.

                    1. Enigma,…
                      As I mentioned, a major feature of ObamaCare was opening up MediCaid to more people by raising income level eligibility; this was a big factor in the huge spike in MediCaid enrollment in the wake of ObamaCare.
                      “Republican obstructionism” did not prevent that from happening. That kind of a massive increase of enrollment in a major government program is accompanied by a major hike in spending on that government program.
                      If you doubt that, look at the numbers of enrollees added after Obamacare, and the corresponding spike in MediCaid spending.
                      I don’t see why you insist on disregarding that as a factor in the deficit, or try to tie it to “Republican obstructionism”.

                    2. It was definitely a factor, failing to achieve the projected savings on schedule was affected by Republican obstruction. Two things can be true at the same time.

                    3. “schedule was affected by Republican obstruction.”

                      No-stop passing of the blame by Enigma.

                      Flip Wilson’s: “The Devil made me buy that dress”.

                      Obamacare could not succeed unless further legislation and increased sums of money were spent and that would only have delayed its failure. Enigma doesn’t know the first thing about Obamacare yet thinks himself a genius.

                    4. Allan, You’re familiar with Obamacare. Are you familiar with the Constitution? Congress has merely the power to tax for “…general Welfare..” deliberately omitting and, thereby, excluding individual welfare. Congress has merely the power to regulate the “flow,” trade or exchange of commerce “…among the several states…” to preclude favor or bias by one state over another – Congress has no power to regulate the design, engineering, production, marketing or any other aspect of free enterprise. Congress alone may establish immigration requirements – Obama had no power to impose DACA which is irrefutably unconstitutional. The right to private property “…in exclusion of every other individual…” precludes affirmative action, quotas, forced busing, unfair “Fair Housing,” discriminatory “Non-Discrimination”, rent control, etc. The critical step for the legislative branch to take in support of the Constitution is to impeach all Justices of the Supreme Court that do not declare all acts contrary to the “manifest tenor” of the Constitution void.

                      Obamacare and the entire American welfare state – redistribution of wealth and social status to parasites – are unconstitutional.

                      America is simple; the government exists to facilitate with “…general Welfare (i.e. roads, post office, water, sewer, electricity, etc.)…” the American thesis:

                      Freedom and Self-Reliance.
                      _____________

                      Article 1, Section 8

                      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

                      To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

                      To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian Tribes;

                      To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,
                      ____________________________________

                      Private property is “…that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual.”

                      – James Madison
                      ____________________________________

                      “…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”

                      “[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”

                      – Alexander Hamilton

                    5. “Allan, You’re familiar with Obamacare. Are you familiar with the Constitution? ”

                      Absolutely. George, it is my opinion that Obamacare was unconstitutional but the Supreme Court voted otherwise. A bad decision but that is the nature of our Republic. If you wish you can pick up your arms, go to Washington D.C and be shot dead. That is your decision.

                      By the way Alexander Hamilton will not be standing at your side. He is already dead.

                    6. Allen, Thank you from the bottom of my heart. You, democrats, RINO’s, progressives, the Subordinate Court, et al. have completely abandoned and nullified the Constitution as you/they support the Communist Manifesto. To quote my wife with reference to your response, “That guy is a real trip.” I am inordinately gratified at your acknowledgment that the entire American liberal segment is treasonous, anti-American and criminally communistic. Alger Hiss got nothin’ on y’all! It would be completely legal, ethical and moral, if not compulsory, for the U.S. military to intercede and re-implement fundamental law in the United States, that of the “manifest tenor” of the Constitution, which equates to a government, sans welfare and social engineering, that exists merely to facilitate the American thesis: Freedom and Self-Reliance.

                      Oh happy day!

                      Thanks again, Al.

            2. As an African American, perhaps you favor migration from Africa, because it grows your visible affinity group. Numbers can mean greater power.

              http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/24/key-facts-about-black-immigrants-in-the-u-s/

              Demographic power is people power. This is why you and other Democrats dont want borders. You want power. Just come clean! It’s ok: power matters.

              And I’m white that’s why I oppose migration from a bunch of third world countries that will swamp white people and make us into a minority. That never ends well for white people. Sorry, but I’m not interested in collective suicide and I don’t apologize for that.

              I would favor migration from Europe and from countries in northern Asia who are more congenial to assimilation in America. I would also support Hispanic migration by favorable qualified migrants who can make a good contribution.

              I have met a lot of fine people from Africa, and I have nothing against them as individuals. but at the big group level this is not favorable prospect for whites. Who are almost totally clueless about the current levels of migration from Africa. which are high and have been for quite some time.

              1. it’s foolishness to think that all national groups are equal. they are not.

                I have my own preferences. Among Caribbean migrants I would take a Jamaican before a Haitian. If only because they speak English. But maybe other reasons. The nation as a whole has a right to prefer migrants from one place or another. Flat out, a right!

              2. Mr. Kurtz “And I’m white that’s why I oppose migration from a bunch of third world countries that will swamp white people and make us into a minority. ”
                Your statement is pretty much the basis for the Trump immigration policy, voter suppression, and gerrymandering. Based on your desire to live in a majority white country with white control, can I suggest Iceland? I have forgotten the projected year in which whites become a minority in America (because it isn’t that big a deal to me) but that day is coming.

                1. Sorry too poor to move. Gotta stay. if it really bothers you, feel free to start a go fund me for me and if it hits $10 Mil. i promise to try and move to Europe. Southern Europe that is. Iceland? nice place to visit but wouldn’t want to live there, too cold.

          2. Karen,
            Good questions.

            “What does Border security mean without a physical barrier?”

            This made me think of the children’s game “Red Rover”.

            1. More Border Patrol Agents plus more border surveillance including aerial and ground based electronic detection linked to more Border Patrol Agents.

              House Republicans could’ve had 700 miles of physical barriers way back in 2013, but they balked at it. They’re balking at it still.

          3. A)Not sure about immoral but wrong because it is an expensive exercise in futility that will grant a false sense of protection and block healthier ways of establishing security ie: robust and very clear programs w/proper channels and repercussions for non-observance. We don’t want people here that ignore the laws we have established…it is law, not walls, that keep our society safe and civil.
            B) Because it is part of our foundation, it is part of our Countries genetic code, because we have always benefitted from those who come from other places AT OUR INVITATION and bring their blood sweat and willing spirit to our shores. We are a place people aspire to come to. Let’s not blow that sacred ground by becoming a place people will do anything to get away from.
            C) It means having the knowledge that we are secure even without a fence. That people will respect a door even if it has no lock. That if they are unable to muster that respect that the reason is taken into account before they are forever hurled into the abyss of an abusive regime.
            D) I’m not sure. I will ponder this ….I don’t think I’ve heard of anyone saying they want the existing fences torn down….
            E) They would happen anyway. Determined people who are existing at the point of a gun or spear have no choice but to find ways. If we had established appropriate ways other than relyiong on fencing then they would have another avenue to take. Our policies and agency need to keep up with the times, our complacency is hurting not just us. Additionally, a fence that secure would damage, maybe irretrievably, the wildlife and naturally occuring living lands and waters that exist at our ‘man-made’ and imagiNational borders. We did not create the planet but we are sure hell-bent on destroying it.
            F) Turtles looking for mates would be so happy…..

            1. clarification on point B) If we don’t have adequate methods and avenues for legal immigration then those aspiring to come here will find other ways. Not every healthy productive aspirant will come wityh letters of introduction or a million dollars in the bank. We have the ability to discern, walls do not.

            2. “A)Not sure about immoral but wrong …”

              Becka, can you tell us why both Israeli walls that work don’t work? Then you explain the same about all the other walls that have been built around the world including the wall around the Vatican that has armed guards.

              Can you tell us why it is moral for a person to trespass but not moral for a person to prevent trespassing with a wall or barrier?

              Do you think the hard working American including the minorities should have their standard of living reduced because ‘walls are immoral’? This includes all the protected classes such as blacks, latinos, women and even recent immigrants. What happened to our concern about the working families that need a leg up when illegal immigration means a leg down for them?

              I’d like to go to B, C and further but one has to start somewhere.

            1. Oh, I’m a native born American, but presently, I am in an apartment in Crimea, sipping vodka. A beautiful woman is cooking for me. She is barefoot and pregnant. Well, ok, I am in America, it cold, and I am having a joke with you, tovarishe.

            1. What do you recommend for our Southern border and how would you handle it, say, if you were in charge? Would you eliminate the fence and welcome further mass migration?

              How would you feel about expanding the opportunity for economic migrants from the third world to come to America?

              In Enigma’s view, how many is too many? If we have say 15 million illegal immigrants here today– numbers are just estimates and vary– would you give them all green cards if you could?

              Would you welcome, say how many migrant workers from Africa, on a work permit program, if you could? One million? Ten? Fifty? How would you decide?

              I just wonder what your program would be. Please describe.

              1. So in other words, design a comprehensive immigration program from scratch? I’d start by looking at our internal needs like how many workers do we need to maintain our agriculture system, and in other fields and establish target goals. I’d expand our asylum system and actually process applicants, also I’d look at foreign aid to improve their lot so less people would feel they had no choice but to come here, particulary helping those countries where we (America) participated in creating those conditions. I would look at thye type Visa’s that allow seasonal workers to work at hotels and golf courses which benefit the business owners, my preference would be for full-time citizens rather than past timers with no actual ties here. My program would be relatively color blind. I would want to weed out criminals, potential terrorists, but there wouldn’t be ban on entire countries or religions. Your recent focus on Africans confuses me. My impression is that a higher percentage of people coming from Africa are in needed professional fields like doctors and engineers than other countries.

    3. Republicans put a bill forth to pay federal employees during the shutdown. Democrats voted it down.

      Republicans offered amnesty for DACA in exchange for a measly $5 billion to fund only a few hundred miles of border wall. Democrats declined.

      I think it’s pretty clear who Democrats are going to the mattresses for, and it’s not federal employees or the citizens who voted for them. They’re doing this for illegal immigrants, to stitch up those who currently vote illegally, their friends and relatives who vote legally, and the future votes after amnesties. They are hoping to get the Latino vote in the bag like the African American vote. They hurt African Americans over and over again – dumping millions of illegal immigrants into the job market to depress wages and compete with jobs, driving businesses under, as well as promoting polices that destroyed the African American family and fueled the gang and prison industry. But they keep not only dutifully voting Democrat, but savagely attack their own who deviate from the approved party. Once they get the Latino vote in the bag, the Dems will promptly forget about them, too, take them for granted, and move on to the next aggrieved party to take advantage of.

      1. You are misrepresenting the Republican bill quite a bit. No amnesty for DACA recipients, just a three year extension with no guarantee it will ever get resolved. Keep in mind ending DACA is on hold by the courts so he would be extending something he doesn’t currently have the power to do anyway. Trump is trying to negotiate by pointing a gun at 800,000 workers.

        1. You are referring to the latest version a few days ago. Back in January, they tried to negotiate for amnesty but were rebuffed.

          Here’s the deal. It is unfair to grant amnesty to Dreamers when Democrats refuse to shut off the flow of illegal immigrants. Because it will never stop. It circumvents our immigration laws and renders them null and void if you can just walk on over, flout our laws, and get citizenship anyway. No country allows that, including Mexico.

          I am sympathetic to kids brought over here by parents who broke our laws. It’s not their fault. Giving them amnesty without a wall means we just created an incentive for millions more of them. Why go through our lengthy immigration process at all or get a visa? What a waste of time? Just cross illegally, get courted by Democrats, get lots of benefits, jump the line, and become a citizen anyway.

          What kind of country would allow that?

          Hey, why not just say anyone who wants to can come, allow 7 billion people in, lose all our national parks, crash our economy and benefits system, run out of water, force farmers off their land, have to import all food, and we can all starve in the hedgerows? Western values would also instantly be in the minority, women would be abused second class citizens, and gays and Jews would be harassed and murdered like most other places in the world. Is that what they want? Because they are creating a real mess that is becoming more and more difficult to rein in. The more illegal aliens we have, the more vote illegally, the more have legal friends and family here who vote, and the more vote after amnesties. Illegal immigration becomes a self sustaining juggernaught until we lost control of our immigration system entirely.

          Dems are fighting toward dystopia.

          1. The policy that Trum turned down where Dem’s (who controlled nothing at the time) would have allowed 25 Billion for a wall included comprehensive immigration reform. Republicans could have done what they wanted. Of course that wouldn have required a plan from the top.

    4. Enigmainblack asked, “How many unpaid workers does it take to provide security for the SOTU?”

      Trump says Mexico will pay for SOTU security.

  16. Wait! Is the government shut down? I hadn’t noticed. Everything seems normal to me. How about we just lay-off the very busy and hard-working, government “workers” who are engaged in any and all forms of central planning, control of the means of production (i.e. unconstitutional regulation beyond the “flow” of commerce among the several states), redistribution of wealth and social engineering.

    Oh yeah, huh! That’s what the Constitution requires – not engaging in affirmative action, welfare, food stamps, quotas, Obamacare, forced busing, rent control, utility subsidies, social services, WIC, HAMP, HARP, HUD, HHS, TANF, SSI, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Social Security Disability, “Fair Housing,” “Non-Discrimination,” “hate crime,” “Reconstruction” amendments, etc.

    Silly parasites, the principles of communism are for communists!

      1. So, as a loyal and patriotic American, can we count on your vote to annihilate any and all forms of communistic central planning, control of the means of production (i.e. regulation beyond the “flow” of commerce among the several states), redistribution of wealth and social engineering? You know, Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto 59 years after the Constitution was adopted because absolutely none of and nothing close to the principles of communism were in it.

        1. You, an unidentifiable internet anomalie, can count on nothing from me. And while your words are supposed to be captivating one only needs look at the current distribution of wealth to see the real perpetraitors of so-called ‘central planning’. What you lable ‘Communism’ is not that…

          1. So you admit to subversion of the Constitution and sedition? The Constitution irrefutably precludes any and all forms of central planning, control of the means of production (i.e. regulation), redistribution of wealth and social engineering.

          2. Mandy Patinkin’s fake accent in that movie is less and less charming every time I hear it. Andre the Giant was a hit however.

            1. I loved Mandy in that movie. The scene where he finally got his revenge on his father’s murderer was tremendous.

    1. Bingo!!!

      Yet the theater will continue. Proof that the Dims have no intention of working across the aisle but rather run a 2 years presidential campaign.
      If the MSM did their job the Dims would be run out of DC or face mob rule, just like a bunch of Catholic young boys!

      “Waters plans fresh scrutiny of nation’s big banks”
      https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/24/maxine-waters-scrutiny-nations-big-banks-1113148

      Hillary need not worry since she wont be using Wall St money to prop her third and failed run for Prez

  18. Plenty of “blame” to go around in this country of ours. Our problems began long ago. Where we are now shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. (And this is the perfect time to mention that Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off the table back in 2006, which was a big mistake.)

    Lawyer Wolfgang Kaleck: Bush, Rumsfeld & Cheney Are a Troika of Tyranny & Should Be in Prison

    JANUARY 24, 2019

    https://www.democracynow.org/2019/1/24/lawyer_wolfgang_kaleck_bush_rumsfeld_cheney

  19. ” We have now expended more money than what was demanded for the wall. That is the illogical state in which we live as citizens with leaders who act solely for their insular political interests.”

    Here the left is totally at fault since in the past they have agreed to the wall and been a part in building one. A compromise to save face could have been made but for the left that cares little about America, the American people or the truth.

    1. Alan, show us a poll that demonstrates American’s blame Democrats for the shutdown.

      1. Why don’t you tell us what the poll would mean. Why do people flash their brand name products when the only thing different is the label. The mainstream press has created all sorts of illusions. Peter, tell us why Pelosi and Schumer are on record supporting the building of a wall and suddenly they are against it. Where still completing portions of the wall that were being built under Obama.

        By the way, you can spell my name any which way it pleases you as it matters little to me but it is spelt with two L’s. By this time one would have expected a reasonably intelligent person to notice.

        1. Allan, Trump could have had his $5.6 billion if he had only offered amnesty to the 3 million Dreamers. But right-wing media would have never allowed that. This whole crisis has been generated by right-wing media.

          1. What you are therefore saying, Peter, is that this was an attempt by the left to pass legislation not an attempt to block the construction of a wall previously approved by the people you are talking about. What you are actually saying is that the leaders of the left have been acting like lying pigs you included..

            1. Alan, hostage-taking isn’t working for Trump.

              First he took the Dreamers hostage. Now he’s holding Federal Workers hostage. And increasingly the whole country feels hostage. Trump needs to release all the hostages.

              1. Trump was willing to deal on the Dreamers. Pelosi “No wall”

                The federal workers are being used by Pelosi and the Democrats. Her answer to the wall is no even though previously the answer was yes.

                The Democrats are for open borders and talk about plans to seal them but that is all talk or they would fund the $5.7 Billion that only covers the most urgent needs. The Democrats like cheap labor and love scr-wing blacks and latinos. Why anyone would fall for the Democrat ruse is not understandable.

                Peter, you don’t care about American workers or their jobs. You are terrible.

        1. TBob, by Monday all my sources reported that said incident was ‘more complex’ than initial coverage. It appears that a third group, Black Israelites, played an uncredited role in proceedings.

          But by now we are all totally sick of said incident. It’s the biggest non-story since Nancy Kerrigan-Tonya Harding.

          1. Peter, your sources along with the rest of the left wing media pounded those children. You and they acted like child molesters. It’s not a non-story. It is a story that has a video attached without which those wearing MAGA hats were guilty without proof. Any fair minded person can look at what happened and see how rabid the left really is.

    2. Maybe, except the precedent is important unless you think that the mobsterish behavior of blackmail and demanding $$$ or else the damaging behavior will continue is an ok thing…..I think we probably saved a HELL of a lot of resource by standing up to this behavior.

      1. Trump has his request for building a small portion of the wall which isn’t different from Pelosi’s, Obama’s, Clinton’s or Schumer prior to the time Trump was elected President. That makes it pretty simple to decide which side is playing the blackmail game. The costs we are incurring today are greater than the costs Trump is asking for.

          1. Becka, what you call Bush’s war was the country’s war. A lot of people on the left were pushing in the direction of war and later changed their minds. Hillary Clinton was one of those. Our intelligence was faulty and Bush’s management of the war was poor as far as I am concerned. I don’t blame him for enterring the war ( I can’t possibly know enough) but I do blame him for not leaving when the war was over plus a few other things. One has to be fair in their assessments. WW2 may never have occurred if in European people weren’t so accomodating to the Germans and the US wasn’t so isolationist.

      2. I love Monty Python. I don’t agree with holding the government hostage, as the Democrats would say, to refuse to secure our border, but I hope you keep making your poin with these vignettes. 🙂

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