Bizarre, Courts, Criminal law, Politics, Society

Montana Judge Orders Men To Wear Shaming Signs For Claiming To Be Veterans

I have previously written about the rise of shaming punishments in the United States in both blogs (here and here and here and here and here) and columns (here and here). We can now add Cascade County District Judge Greg Pinski in Montana who crafted his own flavor of justice by requiring Ryan Patrick Morris, 28, and Troy Allan Nelson, 33, to wear signs reading “I am a liar. I am not a veteran. I stole valor. I have dishonored all veterans.” As always, such punishments are hugely popular with people but they are also, in my view, high damaging to the legal system.

Morris and Nelson were sentenced for separate crimes in attempting to get benefits and preferential treatment from a veterans court. Morris was given a 10-year sentence in prison for violating probation after a felony burglary and falsely claiming to be a wounded veteran with seven combat tours. Nelson was sentenced to five years for drug possession and falsely claimed to be a veteran to gain benefits in a veterans court.

I have previously criticized past prosecutions for stolen valor (here and here) as a threat to the first amendment. Such cases are deterred through social stigma and simple research, as it was here. This was a straight-forward case of fraud where the men could be prosecuted for seeking or securing benefits on false pretenses. These men are looking at serious jail terms.

Yet, it is easy to let the well-based anger overwhelm our judgment and even relish the degrading act ordered by the court. However, these shaming punishments degrade our legal system and turn judges into little Caesars meting out their own justice to the thrill of the public. We have seen judges force people to cut their hair in their courtroom or clean their court bench with a toothbrush. These sentences make justice a form of public entertainment and allow judges to turn their courtrooms into their own macabre productions.

I have no problem with the tongue-lashing from the court, who correctly said that the claims filed by the men were “abhorrent to the men and women who have actually served our country . . . You’ve not respected the veterans. You’ve not respected the court. And you haven’t respected yourselves.”

However, Pinski suspended some jail time only if they agree to degrade themselves with the sign Pinski described. While on probation, they must wear placards on Memorial Day and Veterans Day outside the Montana Veterans Memorial with a sign that reads: “I am a liar. I am not a veteran. I stole valor. I have dishonored all veterans.”

It is a sad statement about people that they secretly enjoy seeing such displays of public shaming. However, a legal system seeks to achieve more than visceral appeal or vicarious enjoyment. It is based on consistent sentencing that does not depend on the whim or pleasure of the particular judge that you pull in a docket rotation. It is no accident that this type of abuse is almost uniformly the domain of state, elected judges. Forcing convicted people to degrade themselves is a way to appeal to voters who relish such scenes. State bar associations and judicial conferences have failed to take action against such improvisational sentencing.

83 thoughts on “Montana Judge Orders Men To Wear Shaming Signs For Claiming To Be Veterans”

  1. Professor. You are over intellectualizing this matter. In my never to be humble opinion a little schadenfreude can, in this instance be accepted for the deterrent effect achieved by the public shaming.

  5. Here’s another guy — a MAGA/KAG man — who falsely claimed to be a veteran:

    Excerpts:

    https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2019/08/man-in-maga-hat-clashed-with-different-portland-bar-crowd-before-his-alleged-assault-video-shows.html

    Footage captured by Radosevich shows the man hurling expletives and pointing at people inside The Vern on Friday night while claiming he served in the military and had been disrespected.

    Multiple patrons can be heard in the video telling the man he needs to leave the bar, located in the 2600 block of Southeast Belmont Street.

    “Come outside and see what happens,” the man, identified as Luke Lenzner, says at one point.

    “No one wants to fight,” Radosevich and at least one other person can be heard yelling back. Lenzner eventually takes off.

    …

    Lenzner also said he never served in the military, but some of his family members have. “In the heat of the moment it came out wrong,” he said in the statement. “I’m truly sorry for that.”

    ___

    He’s only sorry because he was caught.

  7. Heinlein, Robert wrote “If it’s worth doing enough will come forward. If enough do not come forward it’s not worth doing.”

    I was shocked when the anti vietnam war anti draft movement, supposedly of the left, suddenly disappeared and instead of abolishing the draft or as it was know then Conscription Act but a few years later saw he reason why.

    The trade off was ‘Selective’ Service and the bribe was college money…. not just for men but for women who got that privilege on a free ride.

    The only politician I recall that wanted it used again was a Representative from New York City who saw it as a social tool and it’s not been used since shortly after Vietnam War ended.

    However one should glance through sss.gov to see the consequences for not signing up at age 18… for men. Men by the way who signed up for that college loan money changed their status from potential draftee to ‘volunteer for military service.’

    I skipped the draft and went regular army for 24 years but am a hard core anti draft advocate. Why? Having some one ‘involuntarily volunteer which is how the wording goes on the contract is neither moral or to my mind legal.’ That was the old system. The new one uses the college money ploy and job with US government as another to get a signature and that legally changes the status … should it be put to use.

    Question is did they truly volunteer and was the promise of a government job legitimate since the most probable employment would be… military service.

    As an independent self governing system I made the choice from start to finish but I don’t believe that applies to any form of service which is in any way conscripition and further tak ing a chance based on college money as income makes the individual a what? Independent Citizen or … mercenary… or perhaps a candidate for Canadian citizenship.

  8. It could have been worse.
    What if they had been ordered to wear MAGA hats. That could have seriously put their lives in danger.

  9. former SEAL Don Shipley is the best at exposing fake SEALs and all the rest of the stolen valor frauds

    Amazingly, Youtube pulled his awesome channel a while back– why?

    https://connectingvets.radio.com/articles/youtube-pulls-navy-seal-don-shipley-buds131-stolen-valor-channel

    He dared to expose the lies of the Native American drum beating Catholic schoolboy harasser guy, Nathan P. who was spinning tales about his service that were untrue, that’s why

    and youtube a property of google is in the business of censoring speech which might dare help Trump, conservatives, etc.

  10. William Barr, Mr. Deep Deep State, should be compelled to wear a “shaming sign” for claiming to be Attorney General when he is actually

    the agent for absolution and acquittal of the Deep Deep State co-conspirators in the Obama Coup D’etat in America.

    James Comey is irrefutably guilty of crimes clearly defined by the law.

    The only person who doesn’t know is AG Barr, Mr. Deep Deep State.

    Where are the Epstein prison videotapes, AG Barr; where is investigative journalism?
    ___________________________________________________________________

    The Obama Coup D’etat in America is the most egregious abuse of power and the most prodigious scandal in American political history.

    The co-conspirators are:

    William Barr, Rosenstein, Mueller/Team, Andrew Weissmann, Comey, Christopher Wray,

    McCabe, Strozk, Page, Laycock, Kadzic, Yates, Baker, Bruce Ohr, Nellie Ohr, Priestap,

    Kortan, Campbell, Sir Richard Dearlove, Steele, Simpson, Joseph Mifsud, Alexander Downer,

    Stefan “The Walrus” Halper, Azra Turk, Kerry, Hillary, Huma, Mills, Brennan, Gina Haspel,

    Clapper, Lerner, Farkas, Power, Lynch, Rice, Jarrett, Holder, Brazile, Sessions (patsy),

    Obama et al.

  11. What is justice? Is being given the choice to publicly admit that they lied, or go to jail, injustice? Whatever the punishment should be, it should be standardized, so that the punishment fits the crime, and is equal.

    This was not only about lying, it was about fraud. When someone claims to be a veteran, they defraud people for money, or even sometimes to get dates.

    It’s the false statement of fact used to commit fraud that’s at issue.

    “Morris and Nelson were sentenced for separate crimes in attempting to get benefits and preferential treatment from a veterans court. Morris was given a 10-year sentence in prison for violating probation after a felony burglary and falsely claiming to be a wounded veteran with seven combat tours. Nelson was sentenced to five years for drug possession and falsely claimed to be a veteran to gain benefits in a veterans court.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_statements_of_fact

      1. The only one making false claims, which you do repeatedly even though refuted time and again, is you.

        1. About 1.17 million people were examined for military service in 1968. Of these, 42% were disqualified. About 10% were so for miscellaneous reasons, 90% for medical reasons. The flow statistics are not broken down between those issued I-Y deferments and those issued IV-F deferments, but the stock figures for that year indicate that of the cumulative total of those of the 1943-50 cohorts who’d received medical deferments, about 62% were classified I-Y and 38% VI-F. IOW, north of 25% of those given induction physicals in 1968 were classified I-Y. Nothing unusual about Trump’s classification.

          Natacha’s pathology is manifest.

        2. Well, Paul, riddle me this: how come The Donald was well enough to march in NYC parades in his military school uniform and participate in all of the military maneuvers at the military school he attended at the time he got his deferment for allegedly crippling bone spurs? When and where did he receive treatment for this condition? He never denied the reason for the deferment, but said he didn’t recall. Why would the daughters of the podiatrist make up such a story? it is undisputed that Fred Trump was his landlord there in Queens. Of course, the records are long-gone.

          1. Natacha – the bone spurs actually build up over time. You can tolerate some pain, but at some point the pain may be more than you can handle.

                    2. Well the doctor stated the diagnosis was made at his father’s request. And his father was kicked out of Germany for failure to enlist so it doesn’t seem out of character

                    5. Anonymous – you betcum, Red Ryder. White man speaks the truth for once.

                    6. I know the doctor lied because I want to believe that he lied. I claim to have knowledge to support what I’d like to believe

                    7. Paul, the evidence – besides the facts that Trump is a proven indiscriminate liar as well as an athlete in his youth – is from the daughters of the doctor who wrote the note.

                      “…The podiatrist, Dr. Larry Braunstein, died in 2007. But his daughters say their father often told the story of coming to the aid of a young Mr. Trump during the Vietnam War as a favor to his father….

                      For decades, Dr. Braunstein saw patients in a congested ground-floor office below Edgerton Apartments in Jamaica, Queens, one of dozens of buildings owned by the Trumps in the 1960s. The family sold the building in 2004, records show…”

                      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/us/politics/trump-vietnam-draft-exemption.html

                    8. Anon1 – you know what? My family has several stories it told over the years that were total bs, That is what this one sounds like. Dr, Braunstein’s licence would be on the line for doing what he did. Still, and I say this from experience, the military doctors checked you as well during your draft or pre-draft physical. They would have x-rayed the foot before they made their decision.

                    9. Paul, that is entirely possible and you can bank on that or not, or you could bank on Trump being a proven indiscriminate liar who claimed his high draft number got him out and the fact that he was an athlete in his youth,

                      As to further exams by the SS:

                      “…Dr. Braunstein’s daughters said that when he discussed Mr. Trump’s medical exemption, he often mentioned Dr. Weinstein, though it was unclear to them what role Dr. Weinstein may have played. He was close to the family, they said, and known as Uncle Manny.

                      The two men forged a close friendship after meeting in podiatry school in New York, from which they graduated in 1953. ….

                      One possible explanation that has been raised over the years, the Braunstein sisters said, is that Dr. Weinstein had a connection to the draft, as some private practitioners did. In fact, multiple doctors would have been involved in the final determination.

                      Men could bring along documentation of medical concerns from private physicians. That information was presented at their exams and considered by a medical officer. Often, a civilian specialist working with the exam station would be asked to review the case and make a recommendation. A local draft board would finalize the man’s classification.

                      Dr. Weinstein practiced podiatry in Brooklyn’s Bath Beach neighborhood, maintaining an office near another Trump building, Shore Haven Apartments. In 1968, phone books show, Dr. Weinstein moved into an apartment in Westminster Hall, a Trump-owned building. He lived in that building for many years, and later lived in another owned by the Trumps.

                    10. Anon1 – during a draft physical, you can bring in x-rays, letters from your doctor, etc. However, you are still going to be examined by military DOCTORS. I speak from experience. They had it down to a science, sadly.

          2. Marching around in a school uniform is equivalent to fighting in Vietnam? Who knew? Anyone who has ever served knows that you don’t get a note from your doctor to keep you out of the draft, like getting a note from the doctor to excuse you from going to school that day. Sure, your Dr. can render his opinion, but it is subject to being reviewed and overruled by the military doctors, who have the last word.

            1. Trump played football, baseball, and soccer in high school and was supposedly good.

              1. Anon1 – spurs grow, so I played football until my sophomore year in college. Then the spurs became to painful to deal with.

            1. The “evidence” is that the doctor’s daughters said that their father said that Fred Trump said he wanted a favor. Additionally, TIN’s point that a simple note from your doctor would not get someone a medical deferment.
              It would be up to those conducting the draft physical and reviewing the medical records to make the call on a deferment. Of course, maybe a claim will surface from a daughter of a long-dead member of the team that performed Trump’s draft physical will now say that her dad said that Trump’s dad said that he said he asked the team that conducted the draft physical to give Trump the I-Y deferment.

  12. Post signs in the restroom of the courthouse where the judge preaches. First Amendment. Say anything which is not defamatory. “Judge Not. Least You Shall Be Smudged!”

  14. The signs perhaps ought to have read “I tried to defraud others by claimiing to be a veteren (insert rest of sign text here).”

    The account doesn’t capture whether the judge mentioned the thing thart made this not just a “stolen valor” sentence – that the claims of being a veteran were made in one case to claim benefits fraudulently, and in the other apparently to try to gain lieniency after committing an unrelated crime.

    That these people chose to hide behind claims of imaginary military service is secondary to the cynical acts of fraud which occaisioned their claims.

  15. Shaming works and should be used more often. Our legal system is far far from perfect and it is the lawyers who make it so.

  18. Stolen valor my arse. Only vain glory correlates to voluntary military service today. By the time the military killed Pat Tillman, he had realized his horrible error of judgement in volunteering for service, and giving up his life’s joy of playing in the NFL (read Jon Krakauer’s book). Major General Smedley Butler, then the all time most decorated Marine: “…All wars are banker’s wars…” Thousands of veterans regret their service (all should). Every one of our foreign military excursions would cease overnight if persons would stop volunteering, and the world would be a better place.

    Stolen valor is stealing the valor of cowards and pacifists who refuse to fight.

    1. Every one of our foreign military excursions would cease overnight if persons would stop volunteering, and the world would be a better place.

      LOL! Of course, are we to rely on your sense of duty to defend our national security when that better world magically shows up on our shores? Not a chance. You have the freedom to be naive and ignorant because we have honorable men and women willing to do the heavy lifting to protect that freedom.

      You’re welcome!

      1. So you’re saying Major General Smedley Butler lied, was deceived, was naïve, what? You tell readers. When the US military killed Pat Tillman, he was reading anti-military excursion author Jon Krakauer, who Tillman’s widow chose to write Pat’s biography. You and any military member should read Pat’s biography, mandatory reading for anyone proposing to join the military.

        How decorated are you compared to Butler when he renounced war? What exactly good did the military accomplish in Viet Nam, for 53k dead US soldiers, and thousands more maimed physically and mentally? And for killing how many innocents? Did the US win or lose in Korea and Viet Nam? In case you did not know, we lost both wars.

        What shall the military have accomplished other than to have made hundreds of thousands more sworn enemies, and killed approximately 2400 US military members, when we turn and flee from the lost wars of Afghanistan and Iraq, with tails between our legs?

        In case you’re blind or naïve, we lost Afghanistan the moment boots landed there.

        The result of the “allies” winning WW2 was approximately 60+ million (ten x the so-called holocaust) dead innocents in the Soviet Union (the Allies gave Eastern Europe to the USSR), and Mao’s rise to power in China: “…It (Mao’s government) was additionally responsible for vast numbers of deaths with estimates ranging from 30 to 70 million victims through starvation, prison labour and mass executions…” (Wiki)

        Hear it right from then-POTUS Clinton’s own voice, the last five minutes of Part 3 of this audio: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/on-the-media-empire-state-mind-1 Exactly as OBL said in his 1996 Declaration of War against the West (I hope you’ve read it), OBL declared war directly because the US Military established in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia. The Islamic analogy would be to plant ISIS in DC and in every evangelical church in the US, especially the mega-churches.

        The US hired OBL’s father to build the Khobar Towers Marines Barracks. OBL later grew to detest American Imperialism, which requires US military excursions abroad, so he blew up the Khobar Towers, exactly the same as you would do to an Islamic military base in DC. You would do exactly what Obama did 1000x over. When Islam responds to US Imperialism, you call it murder and terror. When you do it, it’s “collateral damage” from a benevolent peace loving power. When the effects are the same, differences in justification are moot.

        1. So you’re saying…

          Only in your imagination, Princess. You completely whiffed on the portion of the anonymous comment I had replied to that was clearly ignorant wishcasting. Our national defense begins with the perception we have the force and will to provide it and ends where that perception is tested; where that perception meets reality. Any gap between perception and reality will be exploited by those that want to do harm to our country. Will without force is a paper tiger.

          So, while I believe we need a superior military force capable of defending our national interests, that does not mean I support every use of that force. For far too long, the political class at the federal level have abused power they were given and assumed powers that they were not supposed to have in the first place. This power has gone largely unchecked as evidenced by their domestic and foreign interventions. It should not surprise anyone that a federal government that does not respect the sovereignty of its own states and citizens, will have any respect for the sovereignty of other nation-states and their citizens.

        2. Princess Trohar – We tied in Korea and won the war but lost the peace in Vietnam.

          1. Actually, most of Korea’s population remained under the authority of the south. South Korea is now an affluent first-tier economy. North Korea is hell on Earth, i.e. where Trohar wants to send the Jews.

      2. Actually, considering how large are Muslim families (who don’t shirk from child birth the way Western non-Muslims do), I’d wager that for every single civilian non-combatant the US military kills in the ME (gee, I wonder why it’s ILLEGAL to release that number), let’s say that the US military converts about 25 Muslims who might have previously been neutral to positive about US Imperialism, to become stone cold anti-American Muslims who would consider it an honor to kill any American on sight.

        My best understanding is that Wiki, ten years ago, quoted that the US military admitted at that time to have killed 66,000 innocent civilian non-combatants in Iraq alone. I’d wager the real # was 10x that.

        That’s a hell of a lot of unnecessary and unwanted Muslim hate toward America and Americans.

        1. Total fertility rates have been tanking for a generation in the Muslim world. The tfr for the World Bank’s Middle-East-and-North-Africa set is now about 2.7 births per woman per lifetime, or similar to that of the United States ca. 1966. Only one country in the set has a tfr exceeding 4.0 (Iraq, as it happens).

          Muslim countries in tropical Africa commonly have high fertility rates (> 4.0), but so do non-Muslim countries therein. Muslim post-Soviet states have fertility rates similar to the MENA set (decades of official secularism notwithstanding). The three Muslim states the World Bank classifies as of ‘South Asia’ have fertility rates which range from 2.1 to 4.5. The Muslim states of the Far East have rates between 1.9 and 2.3.

    2. Right you are. If I military was used just for our defense it would be one thing, but it is not. Our latest “wars” are all about natural resources and hubris.

      1. If I military was used just for our defense it would be one thing, but it is not.

        What should they be defending and where should that be done?

      2. They have little to do with natural resources and you’d not make a business case for them on that basis.

    3. I can see why you used the name anonymous. I was a draftee who volunteered to stay in the Army – ended up spending 28 years, 9 months and 19 days before retiring as a Colonel. You should have been with me along the East German border with West Germany and numerous other sites to see the appreciation of those being defended. And defending from people with opinions like yours – a true arse.

      1. My best friend is a Marine Aviator. The CO of his unit was an absolute falling down drunk, who made multiple passes at my friend’s wife (both military crimes), and who the Marines protected and eventually granted him a wonderful retirement, like you and Olly (the retired part, not the other stuff). The military generals who do not speak out about foreign military excursions (which are illegal, I suggest you read the Constitution) are sell outs, nothing more than glorified mercenaries leading members to early deaths.

        The biggest loudest mouths like you and Olly promoting war and death are deceivers. Thousands of ex-military honorably discharged members agree on this subject.

        Read Pat Buchanan’s book on Hitler and Churchill; the latter affirmatively chose WW2. Churchill affirmatively and positively lied when he wrongly promised Poland to defend it if Hitler attacked. WW2 was absolutely avoidable, and most Brits well know it by now, though it’s a well kept secret in America. There’s a good reason that Churchill left the world stage in abject shame, at least in his home country. Churchill ended the British Empire when it did not have to end. How has Africa faired since the end of the British Empire? Hong Kong? India, etc. etc.?

        1. The biggest loudest mouths like you and Olly promoting war and death are deceivers.

          I challenge you to cite anything I’ve said that makes that statement true.

          Ready. Go.

        2. Trohar’s peeved that Hitler was interrupted ‘ere he could finish the job.

    4. anonymous, “only vain glory correlates to voluntary military service?”

      TOTALLY CLUELESS

      MANY IF NOT MOST PEOPLE SIGN UP A SERVICE CONTRACT FOR MONEY,. THE PAY. IT’S A JOB.
      FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT AND WANT THE GI BILL BENEFITS.

      you must be so well off in society that you had no clue about that. no, Pat Tillman is not a good example. He was a patriotic volunteer. Most volunteers just need the money. Your example is the exception not the rule.

      We will pardon your ignorance as you likely are very privileged and had no idea most are doing it for the money

          1. Was he?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

            “Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940) was a United States Marine Corps major general, the highest rank authorized at that time, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I. Butler later became an outspoken critic of U.S. wars and their consequences. He also exposed an alleged plan to overthrow the U.S. government.”

            Military awards

            In addition to the Medal of Honor and his other American military decorations, Butler received several awards from other countries including the Haitian Médaille militaire and the French Order of the Black Star.[76]

            1. i like reading about smedley butler. i think crank is too severe. he was colorful.

              here’s a funny quote

              I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

              when Butler was police chief of Philly he cracked down on booze. that was a fool’s errand.

              blaming everything on banks is dumb too. they say the bankers start the wars. mel said it was the jews. often these remarks sound quite the same. but in either case here is the rub: it’s actually the political leadership that starts the wars and they always have some form of financing.

              they also have other social conventions necessary to wars like armaments producers, sutlers or horse wranglers or agricultural interests backing them. it makes as much sense to say that “the arms manufacturers start the wars” as it does “bankers start the wars” or it could be “oil companies” etc etc.

              these interests are all parts of modern society. but the sine qua non of who starts a war, is what commander gave the order. all these other interests are going to be similar on any side.

              in this way i feel his famous quotes have become an evasion. no society will function without finance. look at the Communists. They had banks too. It’s back to the pre-Roman times if we get rid of banks.

              but we would have to go back to pre Babylonian times to get rid of booze, and Butler wanted to do that too.

              So he was interesting but suggest not to make too much of him.

        2. Before his career as a traveling pacifist speaker, Butler had, during the Hoover administration, been arrested and court-martialed for publicly repeating rumors that Benito Mussolini had killed a child in a hit-and-run accident, accepting a reprimand.

          His entire career was marked by controversy and outspoken antics which would have ended the careers of officers whe hadn’t Butler’s advantage of a father in Congress chairing the House Naval Affairs Committee directly responsible for the Marine Corps. His valor was undoubted, he’d earned the respect of legends such as Commandant John Archer Lejeune, and managed to clean up the highly corrupt Philadelphia police department, taking leave from the Marine Corps to do so.

          Smedley Butler resigned from the Marine Corps in 1931 after being passed over for Commandant of the Marine Corps by Ben Fuller (who’d had more time in the service, and was less flamboyant and less dependent on a politically influential fatjer than Butler), to help found the Oregon state police and advocate for veterans (he was a force in the Veterans of Foreign Wars).

          It was only after a failed 1932 run for the US Senate that Butler publicly recounted what a racketeer for Big Business he’d been all his career, and 1935 that he published War is a Racket. It’s possible to honor the man for his service while at the same time seeing what part of his post-service bitterness that thwarted ambition may have played.

      2. So you’re saying readers should ignore the anti-war position of one of the all time strongest, most determined military members, one who gave up a life of civilian wealth and glory, to voluntarily fight against “terrorism?” One who the US military itself killed, and then attempted to hide their fragging death, because it would harm President Bush’s lies that we were “winning” a war that we lost the moment we did not declare it?

        You’re not much for reading ME history.

        1. Your portrayal of him is fictional. He was a retired military officer. Technicians often know their own trade but little else. That he was flag rank military doesn’t legitimize political or historiographical lunacy on his part.

          1. Absurd: “He was a retired military officer. Technicians often know their own trade but little else. That he was flag rank military doesn’t legitimize political or historiographical lunacy on his part”

            You really are a piece of work.

          2. This is absurd x XIII says: August 30, 2019 at 5:16 PM

            “Your portrayal of him is fictional. He was a retired military officer. Technicians often know their own trade but little else. That he was flag rank military doesn’t legitimize political or historiographical lunacy on his part.”

            Said like someone who has surely never served.

          3. She’s probably repeating the conspiracy theories swirling around the death of Pat Tillman, not Smedley Butler (who died in hospital of what was diagnosed as “probably cancer” in 1940). Tillman wasn a flag, and Butler never served under Bush..

    5. Besides Anonymous and the rest of the socialist left have a better way. Activate the still ‘in force’ draft…. except for their own kids which is the reason for the new name ‘Selective’ Service which by the way proves they are anti equality for women since women are exempted as the left sees them put to better use as baby factories to the men’s cannon fodder role.

  19. Forcing convicted people to degrade themselves is a way to appeal to voters who relish such scenes.

    Come on Turley, read your own effing post. This judge did not force these POS fraudsters to wear these sign boards. He gave them an option.

    However, Pinski suspended some jail time only if they agree to degrade themselves with the sign Pinski described.

  20. We allow judges far to much discretion over sentencing. The return of the birch, the cane and the pillory-and-stocks is properly welcomed (especially for juvenile offenders), but this freeforming from the bench is annoying.

    1. I heard a speech by John Paul Stevens condemning the Federal Uniform Sentencing Guidelines. Basically he got up and read “The Charge of the Light Brigade” and that was it. The assembled lawyers gave him a standing ovation. I thought wow this guy is really full of himself.

      Reinstating modest controlled non-injurious corporal punishment in lieu of excessive and ineffective incarceration is an excellent idea.

      https://idebate.org/debatabase/law-law-general-punishment/corporal-punishment-adult-offenders

      1. How about judging each case on its merits, and allowing a judge the discretion to sentence someone convicted of a criminal offense without being shackled by mandatory minimums? No 2 cases, no 2 juries, no 2 defendants, no 2 victims, no 2 sets of mitigators and no 2 sets of aggravators are ever the same. Some cases are truly based on technicalities, situational circumstances and poor judgment resulting from trauma rather than bad moral character. There are way too many decisions based on vengeance, prejudices and assumptions. Too many jurors are old, bitter white people. Judges are supposed to be there to even the outliers. Federal judges have lifetime appointments to prevent them from the tyranny of politics. Mandatory minimums and elimination of parole detract from this plan of justice.

        1. You don’t allow judges discretion because nothing in their training gives them the sort of knowledge which would provide for reliable calibration of punishments. Legislators took away judicial discretion because it was abused.

        2. too many jurors are white people and old? did you really say that Natch? Ten bucks says you wear white skin too. Self hate much? and oh you will be old one day too, even if you sound like a sixth grader today.

          an even worse comment than the usual garbage about trump narcissist. well, thanks for trying, anyways

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