Sometimes it takes a princess to truly make a royal fool out of yourself. Last week, Princess Lamia bint Majid spoke to the World Tolerance Summit in Dubai. That appearance alone raised issues of hypocrisy and absurdity. However, what the princess said was breathtaking: that in a country where women have been arrested for driving or moving about without permissions of male relatives, Saudi women enjoy more rights than their apparently oppressed counterparts in the West.
We have discussed a seemingly endless line of cases of abusive and repressive acts against women in the Kingdom (here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here and here). Yet, the Princess appeared to assure women around the world that they should come to Saudi Arabia to enjoy real freedoms under the egalitarian principles of medieval Sharia law.
The Princess explained:
“The West always thinks that women in my country are vulnerable and not being given their rights. I remember being in a meeting in the UK recently where they were discussing the problem of unequal pay between men and women and I couldn’t help but smile to myself. Men and women have equal pay in Saudi. If someone is earning even one riyal less than someone doing the same job they can sue. That’s not the case in the West, despite the fact they’ve been talking about it for years.”
Saudi Arabia of course continue to arrest and beat women for advocating equal rights or wearing clothes of their choice. While the Princess talks of her amusement at complaints of women at conferences over pay, true feminist heroes like Loujain al-Hathloul, continue to be abused for seeking the most basic rights of equality.
While these women languish in the jails of the Kingdom, conferences in places like Dubai are featuring royal princesses who can recount that their experiences have not been all that bad. That is reassuring. Perhaps the women in the Saudi prisons will be heartened and say ‘Psst, pass it along, Princess Lamia bint Majid says we’re free and enjoying the best years of our lives.”
Another example of Liberal hypocrisy on the treatment of women: Allowing men who identify as women into women’s private spaces. Women who object to getting naked in front of biological males are labeled Transphobic. There’s that ad hominem stick of compliance again, used to pummel women into submission.
Here is another story where a girl is shaking and upset that she will be forced to change in front of a biological male, with all his biological male parts, in the locker room. The school did not care that this traumatized her. Exposing male genitalia to a female without her consent is considered heinous in all other cases except for this. She is wrong, apparently, for not wanting to get naked in front of a naked boy against her will. All he has to do is say he’s a girl, and he has access to the girl’s changing area. Around 90% of transgender children grow out of the condition by adulthood. So there is a high probability that this person will not think he is a girl by the time he is an adult, but he will have bullied his way into forcing girls to get naked in front of him.
How’s that for a war on women right here in America?
https://www.dailywire.com/news/walsh-female-student-breaks-down-in-tears-as-school-board-grants-boys-access-to-girls-locker-room-this-is-simply-evil
A student named Nova Maday, a biological male who identifies as transgender, filed a lawsuit in 2017…He demanded access not just to the girls locker room, but to the exact same area where the girls change. His basic human rights are apparently violated in horrific fashion if he is not able to actually see girls get naked and himself get naked in front of them.
The tenor changes dramatically with Julia’s reaction. Her voice shaking and tears in her eyes, she says that she is “uncomfortable that my privacy is being invaded.” She explains that she is a swimmer and therefore has to get changed “multiple times, naked, in front of the other students in the locker room.” Yet even in the face of this outrageous trampling of her basic privacy rights, she still attempts to be as generous as possible to the other side, acknowledging the school’s “obligation to all students” but arguing that she should also be accommodated.,,
At the very least, if you support forcing scared and humiliated young girls to change in front of boys, please do not pretend to care about women’s rights, especially women’s privacy rights. And please do not ever sermonize about the dangers of “rape culture” or “patriarchy.” You are willing to put a girl’s safety at risk and expose her to the shame and embarrassment of changing in front of boys all for the sake of the LGBT agenda. You are an enemy of women, not a supporter. At least be honest about it.
Saudi Arabian women are well-versed in the anti-family culture in the US. For one, Saudi Arabia has no CPS culture that extracts children from mothers and fathers. There is no law that puts men on the streets when a woman decides she no longer likes her husband. Saudi Arabia is about preserving family and children. The West is about destroying family and children.
Three questions:
1. Why is it our business how Muslims in Saudi Arabia treat women?
2. Why doesn’t the ever so progressive feminist crowd condemn Islam due to its treatment of women?
3. Why doesn’t the ever so tolerant, loving LGBT crowd condemn Islam due to its treatment of gays?
antonio
Antonio, your first question possibly answers the second and third questions. Though it’s not like American feminists are going charter flights to Saudi Arabia so they can march on Mecca.
Not suggesting that American feminists March on Mecca.
I’m merely pointing out their utter hypocrisy for attacking Americans with traditional views but nary on peep on how Muslims treat women.
Same for the LGTBQ crowd.
These would be the first two groups to get it.
Have absolutely no empathy for either if they are that blind or stupid.
Kind of like white s@@tlibs who end up around a lot of dindus and are surprised when they get harmed.
antonio
i could give a fig whether the Saudi women are oppressed or not. Seriously.
If by next summer the world has sunk a lot farther into chaos, as it’s appearing to be going right now, then maybe someone will remember this and say hmmm how quaint that was a concern at that time
Liberal American Women: “The Princess speaks the truth. Saudi Arabia is a beautiful country that empowers womyn of all colors and genders. If you don’t agree you’re a racist, a misogynist, and a Hannity troll.”
So yes it might be a stretch to label all liberal American women as supporting such tyranny against SA women, but that is the reputation they are earning presently.
BS! It’s not liberal American women who are sending troops and weapons to the theocrats in Saudi Arabia. It’s the “sainted” or is it “deified” Republican President and his enablers in Congress.
Good grief, Obama sold weapons to them, too. And, he bowed to them for good measure.
Are you unaware of how Liberal women, her and abroad, defend Islam’s treatment of women? Ever heard of hijab in solidarity movements? Calling out any criticism of Islam’s treatment of women and Jews as Islamophobic? You must have heard of this at some point. It’s perfectly fine to call for reforms in the Catholic Church, but not Islam.
The Islamophobic stick is used to curtail criticism of how Islam is practiced both in the Middle East, and in the West. Not all Muslims are strict adherents, and in fact the moderates just ignore about 2/3 of the Qu’ran. But if you criticism FGM “vacations” or other harsh practices, you’re labeled Islamophobic. Liberals don’t want to wear that undeserved hat, so they remain silent or enablers.
They don’t understand a real patriarchy when it’s staring them in the face.
https://unherd.com/2018/04/many-left-wing-progressives-protest-pope-silent-islams-totalitarian-tendencies-victims-cowardice-overwhelmingly-women/
“As a lifelong feminist, and firmly on the political Left, I am appalled at so-called progressives that capitulate to Islamist men, and make an exception for Islam as a religion – when being (rightly) critical of Judaism and Catholicism. What is behind this hypocrisy? From where I am standing it is simple: the fear of being labelled ‘Islamophobic’.
As Anna Pak, an Iranian exile to France, and staunch secularist feminist explains, the Islamophobic term originated from 1979 when Ayatollah Khomeini came to power. “Women went to the streets and marched to be free of the veil,” she says. “Khomeini and the Islamists obliged them to wear the veil, and that’s when they started calling these women Islamophobic.””
People afraid of being called Islamophobes have created space for hardline Muslim men to promote sharia courts, the wearing of the full-face veil, arranged marriage, female genital mutilation (FGM), and gender segregation in public places
–
What, then, are these leftists supporting, when they shout, ‘Islamophobe’ at those of us that consider Islamic ‘traditions’ can be both totalitarian and harmful to women? Male chaperones, punishing ‘impurity’ of women, and the need to control women’s bodies and sexuality.
These cultural relativists have given their support to sharia courts, the wearing of the full-face veil, arranged marriage, female genital mutilation (FGM), and gender segregation in public places. What’s more, many do it in the name of women’s emancipation. Supporting traditional Islam flies in the face of the feminist quest for liberation from patriarchal structures.”
Darren, whatever you were trying to express in this comment is seriously disjointed.
How are liberal American women responsible for the tyranny of Saudi women??
If you’re trying to say that American women should be marching for the rights of Saudi women, as ‘male’ conservatives often claim, it’s a specious assertion. American women are still struggling for their own rights. Reproductive rights in particular are under constant assault by Republican state legislatures. Equal pay and physical security remain big concerns as well.
It’s not like American women have the luxury of taking up the cause of women in the Muslim world. The Muslim world includes North Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia; hundreds of millions of people. It’s not like American feminists really have time to focus on all those countries when their rights at home are still unfinished business.
Your comment, Darren, provides a strong clue as to why Republicans are polling terribly with women.
American women are still struggling for their own rights. Reproductive rights in particular are under constant assault by Republican state legislatures. Equal pay and physical security remain big concerns as well.
1. No decent society allows the slaughter of its young, or has the audacity to refer to such slaughter with the fraud term ‘reproductive rights’.
2. ‘Equal pay’ is not now a concern, nor has it ever been. Women enter and exit the labor force more frequently than do men, work part-time more often, and choose different (and less lucrative) occupations. Geraldine Ferraro once made a remark to the effect that wouldn’t it be nice if women could be as well paid as men having chosen occupations agreeable to them. To which a wag responded that it was now the stated goal of a prominent Democratic Party insider that one should have the job one wants at the salary one wants. Ha ha.
Tabby, abortion is legal in most western countries with educated women. In fact, abortion is more likely to be illegal is less educated societies.
But good Catholics like yourself can’t help but think that women need to be punished for sex outside of marriage. To that end, you want to see women and doctors imprisoned for abortions while claiming that’s more ‘humane’ than legal choice. Like we really want police detectives making regular calls at hospitals to investigate miscarriages!
Then you wonder why Republicans have a serious problem attracting women voters and candidates.
JB:
“Like we really want police detectives making regular calls at hospitals to investigate miscarriages!”
******************
You seem to want to vindicate every right — indeed every whim — of every female except for those voiceless ones in the womb. How noble!
Mespo, if you think police detectives should be more involved in women’s health, then the ‘pro-life’ movement should talk about that more. Republican candidates, for instance, should say how much prison time doctors and women should get. There should be an honest discussion about criminalization.
In fact, you’re a lawyer, Mespo. Why don’t you tell us here how much prison time doctors and women should get when convicted of abortion.
Peter – what is the mandatory sentence for premeditated murder in CA?
JB:
Well if you deliver a child and permit it to die out of some warped view of mother’s reproductive rights, you deserve squads of detectives in your OR and the exact punishment that murderers who lay in wait receive. That applies to the doctors who deliver and abandon and the mother’s who direct and condone it. I see no difference morally or legally between this situation and that of Susan Smith for willful murder of her children in a lake. Please explain the moral difference or the legal difference without regard to base sentimentality or mindless rhetoric.
Mespo, just as an exercise, post an article from a recognizable mainstream source that tells us how often babies are delivered only to be ‘murdered’. Let’s see some real stats on that.
In any event, we’re getting at something here. You and Paul are apparently comfortable with jailing women and doctors. But I wonder if the anti-abortion movement could survive while emphasizing penalties. Because it seems ‘pro-life’ activists are generally quite shy about mentioning penalties. It’s an aspect of the discussion they’d rather not wade into.
“In any event, we’re getting at something here. You and Paul are apparently comfortable with jailing women and doctors.”
********************
I’m comfortable jailing criminals regardless of their occupation of vagina status which until talking to you I didn’t know conferred immunity. As for live birth abortions, you can listen to Gov. Blackface below. Now answer my question you clumsily dodged or I’ll just assume you can’t.
Mespo, Governor Blackface is doing okay at the moment. Democrats just took over Virginia’s statehouse. So no one can say Governor Blackface went down in disgrace.
JB:
Gov. Blackface is a disgrace but it would take a sense of propriety to understand that. Oh, and thanks for conceding no difference between Susan Smith and live birth abortion. Now let’s move on to distinguishing viable fetus abortion from Susan Smith. I’m all ears at your distinctions.
Mespo, Northam has nothing to be ashamed of here. Doctors should be the decision makers regarding women’s health.
No woman in her right mind is going to seek a late term abortion unless she really has to. Late term abortions typically involve pregnancies the mother ‘wanted’ to carry. It’s not a capricious decision women make on catty whims. Yet you seek to portray it as that.
Women get to decide their own health not the health of viable lives in utero. Those lives are separate.
A child is not a punishment, Peter. It is a child. And it is the issue of the father and the mother, while we’re at it.
So because women in the US are so oppressed and incapable, that they cannot summon the strength to speak out against injustice? Sounds rather misogynistic on your part.
Some liberals are often so busy wrapped up in their own insular cocoon, they cannot bring themselves to recognize that worse conditions exist elsewhere because it would detract from their falsehood that (insert American victim class here) suffers the worst punishment in the world and thus the current ‘enemy’ of liberals is not in fact the actual tyrants of the world. Plus, they suffer from saying that since in your case Republicans are so bad, that any opponent of repubs is of course noble and virtuous. But any atrocious behavior by these opponents is something that should be swept under the rug or ignored.
As for your quote “How are liberal American women responible for the tyranny of Saudi women?” Well if you say so, but I don’t find women in Saudi Arabia to be tyrants. But if that is your belief, that is your issue not mine.
Well Darren, here again your comment is disjointed. But you seem to confirm my suspicions that you think American women are spoiled prima donnas. It’s a nonsensical assertion, but that seems to be your message.
That huge women’s march in Washington, the day after Trump’s inauguration, infuriated conservatives. They discerned that march was ‘not’ supportive of Trump. And that’s when I began to see comments to the effect that American feminists are ‘hypocrites’ for not taking on the cause of Muslim women.
Child labor is still an issue in much of the world. And Republicans have claimed for years to be the party of ‘family values’. So why aren’t Republicans crusading against exploited children in third world countries? The question is a stupid What About, of course. But that’s how dumb it gets.
And it’s a stupid What About to say that American women should be taking an active role in crusading for the rights of Muslim women. What about American men? Shouldn’t they care about women in Muslim countries? Why should only liberal women care? Again, it’s all just a stupid What About.
It is usually advantageous to stay on target with resolve when presenting your side of an argument. You are all over the map here, and importing many suppositions on your behalf of what I believe. I can assure you that your attempt at clairvoyance is greatly lacking, though you would have everyone believe otherwise.
You are free to proffer whatever version of truth you will, just don’t expect it to be accepted by others. That’s all I have to say, but you of course can have the last word if you that is your goal.
Darren:
It’s the pinball wizard style of argument allowing you to rush headlong into one argument and then rebound just as hard into the next reality. Then, of course, after ringing a few bells you just crap out down the middle.
That reminds me of a documentary we watched on Elton John’s life. I believe it was titled “Rocketman”–a recent production.
For me it was among the most entertaining films I’ve seen in some years. Very well made and a bit allegorical at times, which is something I find thought provoking. It’s worth watching if you have the time.
Darren, I’m all over the map..? Then ‘where’ are ‘you’??
All we can glean from your comments is a very cynical What About hidden beneath cryptic language. Yet you seemed to confirm what I suspected you were saying. The subtext is basically a slap at feminists for not voting Republican. Like ‘American women have it all but they’re still spoiled ingrates’.
I have been wondering why we are told to embrace cultural diversity and the customs of the less developed world on the one hand,
and on the other hand, we are selectively not supposed to appreciate the “patriarchy” which is evidently still the predominant social form across the less developed world, ie, Africa the middle east and most of Asia.
i am trying to figure that one out, but i cant. can a feminist professor with a minor specialty in multiculturalism give me a quick lesson?
even in the country governed by atheist communists who ended foot-binding, apparently, there’s limitations.
http://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/postcard/thwarted-home-can-chinas-feminists-rebuild-movement-abroad
MK:
“I have been wondering why we are told to embrace cultural diversity and the customs of the less developed world on the one hand”
*************************
It’s fairly simple. Self-loathers have an enhanced death drive (Thanatos) which compels them to engage in self-destructive behavior and to invite others to join them in their rush to oblivion which, of course, validates their inclinations. It’s a perversion of justice which demands punishment against themselves when turned inward and rampant aggression when turned outward. Basically, it’s broken people re-enacting their personal trauma over and over again.
“All we can glean from your comments is…hidden beneath cryptic language.”
~+~
oh american women definitely are prima donnas, as a group. we all know that especially if we know other such groups for comparison’s sake.
this is one of the benefits of “cultural diversity:” the ability to see the weaknesses of your own!
here’s just a little taste of “social studies” to give a picture of certain trends
https://ifstudies.org/blog/promiscuous-america-smart-secular-and-somewhat-less-happy
of course every single person may be quite wonderful; but the group has its character as a whole
That huge women’s march in Washington, the day after Trump’s inauguration, infuriated conservatives.
Someday, Peter may learn the difference between fury and laughter.
John:
The march falsely attributed evil motivation to the Republican party in general, and Trump in particular. Plus, if you’re going to wear a hat fashioned to resemble female genitalia, you are going to be mercilessly mocked forever.
Also, there are in fact many conservative charities whose direct goal is to help children around the world.
Liberals attack criticism of how Islam treated women in the US, as well, falsely labeling it Islamophobia.
Men and women do care about the treatment of women under Islam domestically and abroad. You will often hear them referred to as “Islamophobic” or read the announcement that Liberal Twitter, FB, and Youtube have banned and deplatformed them.
Step #1: Criticism Islam does not make you an Islamophobe. Until and unless the Left grasps this foundational principal, we will never get to Step #2: Criticizing Islam’s treatment of women in the Middle East, and here in the US, is not Islamophobic. If you’re still with me, Step #3: It is hypocritical to accuse Republicans of waging a war on women simply because they view a fetus as a baby and want to protect the baby from being killed, which is an honorable intention whether you agree or not, while simultaneously supporting the Islamic mistreatment of women, with hijab solidarity days, defending targets of misogyny with accusations of Islamophobia, and in other ways enabling and supporting the mistreatment of women. (I’m sorry. That last was a terrible run-on but I’ve got to rush.)
Liberal women interfere with criticism of the treatment of women under Islam, both in the Middle East and here, using the false ad hominem, Islamophobe.
This makes them hypocrites.
Criticism of Tlaib being labeled as Islamophobic would be one example that comes to mind.
It’s not anti-Christian to point out abuses that require rectifying. It’s not anti-Islam to point out the abuses there, either, or to urge more followers to take a more moderate, healthy approach.
Why the constant clamoring for ‘ equal rights ‘ ( for women, for races, etc ) ? Wouldn’t passing a law granting ‘ equal rights ‘ to any special group in fact be granting special rights to select groups and thus cause an imbalance under the law in our society?
No Rick. Do me a favor read a book. Start easy.
Back to the subject. If they trot out a common citizen and take off the socialist disguise I might believe them. Is it a human or is it a Schift
When listening to a Saudi Princess speak on women’s rights from Dubai remember this:
Sheikhs Latifa bint Mohammed al-Maktoum, daughter of the ruler of Dubai, spent 7 years planning a desperate escape. She made it to sea, where she was kidnapped off a yacht at gunpoint. She disappeared for quite a while. After that, video surfaced in which she said she was happy and safe in the arms of her family.
What is the daughter of Majid going to say? Please help me? No one would. A family’s honor resides in the body of the women of the family. There is a long list of “sins” that “dishonor” the family and require violence to “correct.” Bad things happen to women who speak out.
Many women give up. They have been groomed by oppressors since birth to believe their plight is normal. Sons get treated like emperors while women are repressed. They are encouraged to take out their frustration by abusing foreign domestics. Women in the Middle East are so twisted up. Women without power in society tend to have an iron fist over their families. They can’t affect their husbands, so they control their sons. And in Saudi Arabia and Dubai, polygamy is the norm. Then you have jealousy and infighting among the wives, as well as their children. It’s kind of funny in a sad way when a Saudi man takes his 4 wives shopping. When one of them picks an item, he buys 4 identical ones in a desperate attempt not to give them an excuse to accuse him of favoritism. So they get huge bags of stuff they don’t want, and 25% of the haul is what they do.
What is it they say among Western ex-pat wives in the Kingdom? Have you hit bottom yet?
And in Saudi Arabia and Dubai, polygamy is the norm.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S111056901300068X
The share of the male population which is currently married in Saudi Arabia (guest workers excluded, presumably) is as follows:
ages..
30-34: 86.4%
35-39: 94.0%
40-44: 96.4%
45-49: 97.2%
50-54: 97.5%
55-59: 97.4%
60-64: 96.9%
65-69: 96.2%
70-74: 94.2%
75-79: 92.5%
>80: 84.4%
Where is the bachelor herd, Karen?
Are you asking with a 50/50 gender distribution, how so many males in the Kingdom are married in a polygamous society?
It is quite common to marry women from other countries. Persians are particularly valued, with a reputation for being the most beautiful.
http://saudigazette.com.sa/article/165994
Karen, you have about 7 million Saudi nationals who have a wife. Of these, perhaps 0.5 million have multiple wives. You may fancy that a phenomenon which accounts for 7% of a given population is a ‘norm’, but no one else is going to have a clue what you’re talking about.
By the way, there are hardly any Persians living in Saudi Arabia.
I know of Saudis who married Persian women and moved them to Riyadh.
There is kind of a joke in some parts of the Middle East about how common it is for Saudis to be homely, compared to their more comely neighbors.
Polygamy is part of the culture of Saudi Arabia. As for how common it is, it depends upon the part of the country, tribe, family, wealth. In some families it is about ubiquitous. The first wife is often arranged in these families. If a man wants a wife he chooses himself, he marries another one, while still providing for the first. In some parts of the Kingdom, it is getting extremely rare.
The very wealthy often have 4 wives, which is the limit under Islam for anyone other than the Prophet. Outside of the royals, polygamy seems to be most common among the older than the younger Saudis.
There are a surprising number of US women expats living in Riyadh with their Saudi husbands. They meet them when they go to school in the West, or travel there.
I will say that to watch a Saudi man going shopping with his 4 wives, is to watch a beleaguered man.
I am told that in Islamic states such as Saudi, you can have as many wives as you can afford.
That is different than countries like America, where a fool can parent children with as many foolish women as will have them, regardless of being able to afford anything.
here’s an interesting study of western and westernized countries. it seems the US is suffering from single parent homes. these are the dubious fruits of “progress”
https://www.educationnext.org/international-look-single-parent-family/
Yet, the Princess appeared to assure women around the world that they should come to Saudi Arabia to enjoy real freedoms under the egalitarian principles of medieval Sharia law.
Come on Turley, how is the princesses expressions of her truth any different than Christine Blasey-Ford’s? The facts are irrelevant. If they feel it’s true, then who can reasonably assert anything else?
Wow! You simply refuse to see realty.
Which reality? The one you feel is the truth, or the one the facts prove is true?
Plumbing the sources of your fixation on Saudi Arabia might be interesting.
Your problem, Professor, is that ever age and every society gets sex wrong. You don’t care for the Saudi regime, the question one might immediately pose is what is the better regime. And there’s your problem. You see, the occidental regime includes widespread abortion, ba*stardy, divorce, and general immodesty. And when you say ‘feminism’, you ought to be cognizant of what that actually means. It means the habit of looking at human relations with the assumption that women have options, while men have obligations. It also means the the assumption that women must not held accountable for anything except when it is beneficial to them. It means in addition that men are looked upon as if they were defective women and had no talents and skills which subsist in their masculinity.
And, currently, you’re living in a world where it is (1) commonly illegal and considered a breach of professional ethics for a counselor or psychotherapist to work with a client on his homosexual feelings while (2) being fully within bounds to perform grisly surgical procedures and endocrine therapies to succor the delusion of some that they were assigned the wrong sex at birth. We now, all over the occidental world, legally harass people who refuse to endorse the assumptions behind either of these delusions. It’s all going on in your neighborhood, and you’re fussing about Saudi women getting driver’s licenses.
You might want to pay more attention to what’s going on in the U.S., JT.
This speech is keeping her out of jail and from being beaten.
Liberals, Democrats and the American press have distorted and misreported the truth consistently so OF COURSE people across the world would think it’s true. Just look at the front page of the NYT and WaPo constantly telling the Americans and the world that America is an evil, misogynist, racist, country run by corrupt conservatives. The Dems hatred of the US and our capitalist, democracy has MIS-informed not just the American public, especlally our youth, who now embrace socialism, but certainly mis-informed the rest of the world. If Democrats would stop with the fake news and lies that they tell all day, every day, and if the press would start acting like a true free press and not an arm of the Democrat party, maybe the world, and our own American population, would know the truth about the wonderful country we live in.
It is awful , we have to be the voice to get out the real truth. Adam Schiff is corrupt and evil. He talks nothing but made up lies. He needs to be taken off the airways for sure. He is hurting the USA
The small things repeated count. Such as correcting the use of mainstream media to lame stream or more accurately left stream. One might say that about Fox but unfortunately they too are shifting too far and the key to that is their application of The Constitution. As for the others they never heard of The Constitution or our Constitutional Republic. Accordingly I return the favor.
Hard to believe but KISS is older than I but not as old as marxist leninist socialism in one of it’s three versions no matter what the propaganda sez
Personally i would take Kiss over any of the far left extremist non media anyday.