Media, Politics, Society

Proud Boys and Antifa Emerge As The Winners From The Presidential Debate

Last night’s presidential debate left many of us in a deep depression over the state of our politics.  Once again, the duopoly of power in this country has reduced a population of over 300 million to two subpar choices. President Donald Trump’s conduct and comments have been rightfully denounced while Biden offered little beyond not being President Trump. There were however two clear and surprising winners last night: Proud Boys and Antifa. 

ANTIFA

When pressed by moderator Chris Wallace on why he has not been more clear in calling for Democratic mayors and governors to crackdown on rioting (including the use of the National Guard), Biden simply said that he was not the president. However, not only is that irrelevant, Biden has been forceful in calling for other actions on these protests and other issues like the pandemic despite his private citizen status. Yet, the most notable aspect of his exchange with Wallace was his reluctance to denounce Antifa.  Instead, Biden referenced FBI Director Christopher Wray’s statement that Antifa was more of a movement than an organization. Biden simply dismissed the question with “Antifa is an idea, not an organization.” It was a telling and inaccurate statement.

We previously discussed Wray statement.  Wray was adamant: “Antifa is a real thing. It’s not a fiction” and, while it is not a conventional organization as opposed to a movement, they have arrested people who admit that they are Antifa.”

I testified in the Senate on Antifa and its history of violence on our campuses and streets. As I have written, Antifa is indeed more of a movement than a specific organization, but it has members and associated groups. Indeed, it has long been the “Keyser Söze” of the anti-free speech movement, a loosely aligned group that employs measures to avoid easy detection or association.  Wray stated “And we have quite a number — and I’ve said this quite consistently since my first time appearing before this committee — we have any number of properly predicated investigations into what we would describe as violent anarchist extremists and some of those individuals self-identify with Antifa.”

I have repeatedly emphasized that extreme right groups are also responsible for recent violence and Wray made clear that far right violence still dominates in terms of a threat profile.  Moreover, I have opposed declaring Antifa a terrorist organization.  We have ample laws to deal with such extremist violence from the far left or far right. We do not need to rely on terrorism laws or most recently suggested sedition laws. Yet, Antifa is more than some “idea.” The Antifa Handbook discusses how it uses an association of groups, including self-identified Antifa groups, to carry out attacks on critics and those with opposing views.

My greatest concern is that we need to take Antifa seriously as a virulent anti-free speech organization.  There is a fair criticism of some politicians who have refused to denounce the group or even support it.  Former Democratic National Committee deputy chair Keith Ellison, now the Minnesota attorney general, once said Antifa would “strike fear in the heart” of Trump. This was after Antifa had been involved in numerous acts of violence and its website was banned in Germany. His own son, Minneapolis City Council member Jeremiah Ellison, declared his allegiance to Antifa in the heat of the protests this summer.

During the recent hearing, Democratic senators also refused to clearly denounce Antifa and falsely suggested that the far right was the primary cause of recent violence.

Biden continued this bizarre reluctance of Democratic leaders to denounce Antifa, which includes specific groups like Rose City Antifa. It is not just “an idea.” It is a collection of groups, including self-identified Antifa groups, that carry out violence against those who oppose their anti-free speech agenda.

Antifa received a huge boost from Biden’s equivocal response. It wants to be dismissed as “an idea” while organizing violent protests and rioting.  That is precisely what it got last night with Biden’s remarks.

PROUD BOYS

Perhaps the most disturbing statement of the evening was President Trump response to Wallace on denouncing white supremacy and actions of far right groups.  It should have been an easy question and answer, but Trump seemed to struggle to avoid an outright condemnation.

When pushed Trump declared “Sure, I’m willing to (tell them to stand down), but I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.”   Wallace and Biden pushed back and Trump said “Who would you like me to condemn?” Biden could be heard twice saying, “Proud Boys.” Trump responded “Proud Boys — stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what. I’ll tell you what. Somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem.”
The statement for The Proud Boys to “stand by” thrilled the extremist group.  The group even shared a new logo online that included the phrase “stand back and stand by.”

The President has struggled after his statement that there were many fine people on both sides in Charlottesville.  The President has maintained that he was not speaking of the extremists but the debate of the preservation of historical statues. However, he has repeatedly equivocated in such comments about far right groups. Last night was in my view far more serious than the Charlottesville statement.  The President has offered an alternative meaning of his line of Charlottesville and he did contemporaneously denounce the violence on both sides. However, here was an opportunity to clearly denounce the far right violence and instead he told them to “stand by.”

As I stated in my earlier testimony, far right groups have historically been more lethal in past attacks and indeed there is some evidence of far right groups fueling violence after the George Floyd killing.  Antifa has also been involved in the violence.  Both should be denounced, but the Democratic candidate equivocated on Antifa while the Republican candidate equivocated on Proud Boys. The implications could not be more precarious for the country.  As our divisions deepen and anger rises, both politicians are playing a dangerous game in currying favor with extremist groups on the left and right. By not clearly denouncing such groups, these politicians give them legitimacy or help them evade responsibility in their actions.

George Washington University student Jason Charter has been charged as the alleged “ringleader” of efforts to take down statues across the capital. Charter has been an active Antifa member on campus for years. Following his arrest, he claimed the “movement is winning.” It is winning. It is winning mostly since people remain silent. Silence kills free speech. Antifa knows that.

The same is true for The Proud Boys and other far right groups like Boogaloo. They do not want or need support. They need the silence and passivity of the public and those in power.

That is why the great winners last night were The Proud Boys and Antifa.

564 thoughts on “Proud Boys and Antifa Emerge As The Winners From The Presidential Debate”

  1. Jonathan.

    Please provide video of the Proud Boys:

    – Setting police precincts on fire

    – Rioting in the streets of multiple major cities across the country

    -Setting occupied government buildings on fire and barricading the exits to prevent the occupants from escaping

    – Attacking police with Molotov cocktails, incendiary devices, guns, baseball bats, lead pipes

    – Attacking anyone and everyone who disagrees with their ideology

    – Destroying, looting, and burning, businesses around the US

    Anyone who knows how to run a search can literally provide hours of video of Antifa doing all of the above, and then some.

    You claim to be a defense attorney?! What a joke.

    1. These people thing they’re invincible, it would seem:

      “Hicks traveled with the president to Pennsylvania for a rally Saturday, to Cleveland for the first presidential debate Tuesday and to Minnesota for another campaign rally Wednesday.”

      “She was photographed without a mask at the Pennsylvania rally clapping to the Village People’s “YMCA” with other Trump aides and in Cleveland on the tarmac deplaning Air Force One.”

        1. I believe if you could find the method used for testing one would find that the testing done by teams are rapid test, one hour or a little longer results. Anything reported to CDC is the nasal swab, 2-3 day results testing that is much more accurate. If you get tested at a doctirs office and they use one of the new rapid test and test positive, you then get the nasal test.

          1. “Your Coronavirus Test Is Positive. Maybe It Shouldn’t Be”

            https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html

            “Some of the nation’s leading public health experts are raising a new concern in the endless debate over coronavirus testing in the United States: The standard tests are diagnosing huge numbers of people who may be carrying relatively insignificant amounts of the virus. Most of these people are not likely to be contagious…”

            “In three sets of testing data that include cycle thresholds, compiled by officials in Massachusetts, New York and Nevada, up to 90 percent of people testing positive carried barely any virus, a review by The Times found.”

            It’s just like everything else involved with this entire scamdemic. From the Bat soup story, to the CDC’s bullsh*t data collection methodology, it is all designed to create fear and panic.

    2. I thought the Commie Dim Libs said Trump lies all the time? & Commie flu test have shown over 80% false positive results.

      It is only a hair over 30 days til election BTW.

  3. There’s a new book coming out called “All the President’s Lies.”

    Here’s a recent one:

    “Trump boasted he made insulin so cheap ‘it’s like water.’ Americans with diabetes beg to differ.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/09/30/trump-insulin-cost/

    Early in Tuesday night’s presidential debate, President Trump claimed he had drastically lowered the price of insulin, a lifesaving drug taken in some form by more than 7 million Americans with diabetes.

    “Insulin, it’s going to — it was destroying families, destroying people. The cost,” the president said. “I’m getting it for so cheap it’s like water.”

    That came as a shock to the Americans who shell out hundreds of dollars a month on insulin, a number of whom posted triple-digit pharmacy bills to social media immediately after the president’s assertion.

    “I looked at my husband and slapped my leg and said, ‘Can you believe that!’ ” said Tiffany Garrioch, 36, a public health nurse and educator in Minnesota with Type 1 diabetes, who watched the debate with her family.

    “We’re already an underserved and highly vulnerable population,” she said. “To hear the president say it costs as much as water makes us look like we’re crybabies or liars.”

    Insulin costs her $36.76 a day, she said. In 2008, it was $9.81. -Washington Post

    1. A former gold standard insulin has been priced at below $50 at Walmart for quite some time with substantial discount if one buys a bigger bottle. That would be about a 1 month supply for a large number of diabetics.

      I don’t know that Trump caused insulin prices to fall that much but he has been working with pharma and if his plans aren’t stopped a lot of drugs will fall substantially. I think costs have already declined a significant amount.

      When Hillary made her claim before she ran that this poor woman was spending $10,000 out of pocket for her meds and didn’t have money for food, it seemed the woman had insurance that covered most pharmaceuticals. A quick check of the actual costs of medication for her diseases was in the hundreds of dollars. Hillary priced out the newest and most expensive and then probably added to the price. I’m not saying we get drugs cheap. We don’t. Some of the laws and threats caused pharmaceutical companies to raise their prices in response. Trump’s’s threats, based on his understanding of business, caused some prices to fall. Some outright abused society. The middlemen were making all sorts of deals and getting very rich. WE have to restore the dollars to more patient control.

      The consumer was paying because government became so involved in a stupid fashion. When Part D was passed it set a minimum price pharmaceutical companies could get. Companies like Pfizer and Mark were mailing new brand name drugs to the poor for free or $15. After Part D was passed they got paid for these drugs. Mark was in trouble at theme so some called it the Merck bailout. Part D stimulated unnecessary spending on more expensive drugs as did too much coverage.

      Big pharma reacts to government in strange ways. They can react stronger and more quickly than government so the patient almost always is the loser. More control by patients means lower prices.

      1. “Everything You Need to Know About Walmart Insulin”

        https://diabetesstrong.com/walmart-insulin/

        Considering that today’s most modern insulin options cost at least $300 per vial, the affordability of Walmart’s insulin is appealing. Unfortunately, the rigid schedule and limitations of these insulins truly make them a “last resort” option.

        They are especially challenging for younger children who have unpredictable eating habits and an inevitably lesser understanding of how important it is to eat a specific amount of food at a specific time of day.

        These insulins will help you stay alive if you truly cannot afford more modern insulin. If they are the only type of insulin you have access to, then yes, it is a good option for you.

        If you can get more modern insulin through your health insurance or one of the many financial assistance programs that exist today, you’d be better off going that route.

        Sure, it’s nice that these older insulins are easily accessible but they are not the solution for a long, healthy, full life for a person with diabetes. They are the last resort.

        Diabetes Strong

          1. He could have paid $25 a vial for Walmart or $50 a vial for Humulin and he would still be alive today. As I said before your critical thinking skills need vast improvement.

            1. “Trump boasted he made insulin so cheap ‘it’s like water.’ Americans with diabetes beg to differ.” -Washington Post

              I guess that Allan isn’t clear about the cost of water.

              1. It’s a metaphor, but $25 for a months supply of insulin. See how much you would pay at the local 7/11 if you bought enough bottles of water to supply you for a month. You are interested in the politics. Watch what people do rather than what they say and how they act.

                Obama made you feel good, but the prices rose tremendously under his administration. Trump is trying to tackle the problem and I think he is going about it the right way. You on the other hand focus on all the wrong things.

              1. I don’t pretend to be an expert, but I am more expert than you.

                You don’t like it that I seem to have a lot of information on diverse subjects. I need that for what I do to earn money. However, you are not really upset that I have such information but you are upset because you have an opinion of yourself that is not justified and you can’t match my expertise. If you could you wouldn’t need to Google references in order to discuss the situation at hand.

                Stop being angry at yourself and blaming others. Develop critical thinking skills. Those actions are a waste of time.

            3. You’re right, Allan, what an idiot he was to not research more options for a lifesaving drug.

              What a loser. Everyone knows to go to Walmart for the cheapest drugs anywhere.

              Allan, the semantic wizard; the claimant of all arguments; the prognosticator of all verbal expression has spoken.

              Froth and venom is all Allan has ever offered here.

              1. Haversham, the froth and venom seems to come from your direction.

                Everyone doesn’t know about Walmart or Humulin insulin the former gold standard. You seem to focus on political victory rather than things that actually help the American public.

                Why haven’t you been calling for the:
                Ability of consumers to purchase drugs from Canada and elsewhere.
                Getting rid of the middleman so that in essence the patients get the discount.
                Transparency
                More patient control

                You are too busy looking for demons to fight and hindering solutions for these grave problems. You probably are very similar in thought to the Anonymous I am presently talking to.

          2. Didn’t you every stop to think if he hadn’t taken those vaccines he wouldn’t have got diabetes & would never had need insulin & lived?

            There’s much more along this same line. I suggest stop being another gullible.

              1. It’s likely because Okies know better then most of the Commie Libs not to eat the mushroom vaccines that sprout from the speical Bullsh.it that Dr Fauci/Bill Gates are growing/selling to Idiots.

                Thanks for the compliment. 😉

        2. How you gather your information is horrid. You are talking about Walmart insulin which is quite inexpensive. The article is horrid and written to promote doubt in the medication and to promote the newest and most expensive medications that aren’t needed in the vast majority of cases if needed at all.

          I discussed Humulin insulin which was the gold standard of insulin some years back. If you know any long term diabetics there is a good chance they may have used it or are still using it today. New drugs arrive all the time and the newest ones can cost many multiples. Are they better? Depends on what you consider better. Is the top of the line Mercedes better than a standard Toyota? Yes and it is probably safer as well but do regular people buy the Mercedes or the Toyota? Why should it be any different with drugs? Humulin would be the equivalent of a good Toyota or Honda.

          I am not sure of all the attributes of the these drugs. Have they been proven to add years of life? You don’t know. Can some of them later be found to cause harm? Yes, because they haven’t been out as long. Do those drugs mean (which is what the article was pushing) that one doesn’t have to watch their diet? No.

          Humulin N is a good choice for insulin though perhaps not as convenient. If one of our billionaires had diabetes and was put on insulin a number of years ago he might still be on Humulin N today.

          Your selective research leads you on a path to ignorance, not knowledge. I suggest you improve your critical thinking skills.

          By the way, do you know how many newer and improved drugs have been pulled off the market for safety reasons? I don’t think so.

          1. Insulin costs her $36.76 a day, she said. In 2008, it was $9.81. This according to “a public health nurse and educator.”

            From the Washington Post article above:

            “Insulin, it’s going to — it was destroying families, destroying people. The cost,” the president said. “I’m getting it for so cheap it’s like water.”

            That came as a shock to the Americans who shell out hundreds of dollars a month on insulin, a number of whom posted triple-digit pharmacy bills to social media immediately after the president’s assertion.

            “I looked at my husband and slapped my leg and said, ‘Can you believe that!’ ” said Tiffany Garrioch, 36, a public health nurse and educator in Minnesota with Type 1 diabetes, who watched the debate with her family.

            “We’re already an underserved and highly vulnerable population,” she said. “To hear the president say it costs as much as water makes us look like we’re crybabies or liars.”

            Insulin costs her $36.76 a day, she said. In 2008, it was $9.81. -Washington Post

            1. “Insulin costs her $36.76 a day, she said. In 2008, it was $9.81. ”

              Yes. Take note of the 2008 date. Drugs spiraled because of bad management. This occurred with many previously inexpensive drugs. I blame all administrations for not handling the problem but did the price come down with ObamaCare? The WP is telling you NO. Obama was elected in 2008. Obama did nothing. Trump is trying to do something about the problem. He is looking at these things with a business perspective which is what is necessary.

              As I said in one response, politics and politicians are the cause. Trump is a businessman and that is where a solution needs to come from. You have to put the facts together in a better way. From a business perspective the solution is not that difficult. You need to improve your critical thinking skills.

  4. The best way to ascertain who won the election is to look at the skin in the game.

    If Dems really believe the heavily Dem oversampled (+14% in absolute terms) CNN poll showing that Biden crushed Trump (60%-29%), then they would be advocating for as many debates with exactly the same format as possible. Repeat until elected.

    Instead, numerous Dem pundits, strategists and insiders are pressing to end the debates or change the format at a minimum.

    When Pelosi says: “One and Done” it tells me Dems don’t believe in their own polling.

    And that speaks volumes.

    1. The leader of Proud Boys is Enrique Tarrio, a Cuban black man, raised in Little Havana in a very large Cuban traditional family that shared meals, participated in large family gatherings in a small humble home and discussed Communists and politics with much passion and gusto. Enrique is friends with Roger Stone.

  6. Anonymous writes: “You’re a liar, Allan.”

    Trump is responding to Wallace:

    Wallace: “ And to end this, button up this segment, I’m going to give you a minute to answer, sir. “

    Imagine that, on a very complex issue where definitions are inexact and things are being conflated Trump has a whole minute to respond to Wallace who becomes the opponent after Biden lied and used a lot of untrue hyperbole.

    Firstly as Trump predicted he ended up debating Wallace not Biden on this point. He offered the National Guard to stop the violence and create peace. (for clarity parts of the following discussion are left out)

    Wallace says: “ And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities.”

    To that Trump said: “Sure, I’m prepared to do it.” …. responding to Wallace’s “not add to the violence”.

    Wallace: “So what do you, what do you say-“

    Trump: “I’m willing to do anything I want to see peace.”

    Biden interjects: “The Proud Boys.”

    Trump responds: “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by.”

    That remark doesn’t use Wallace’s words “stand down” but Wallace was drawing a conclusion and conflating defensive with offensive violence. This means there is no real answer anyone can provide unless one states ‘do not protect yourself’ and we know people have a right to protect themselves.

    Trump was under a time limit so he couldn’t go through a discussion of what type of violence Wallace was talking about. That makes it impossible to answer perfectly (a one minute limit). That is a problem when the moderator enters as an opponent.

    Also the word (white) supremacist means a person who believes they are superior to another in this case based on the color white. That doesn’t mean they are violent. Once again Wallace entered in as a Trump opponent in the debate. Wallace is conflating violent and non violent white supremacists and like my previous explanation this is impossible to answer without a long drawn out definition of white supremacy, violent and non violent.

    Suffice it to say Trump called for peace without making a judgement call as to the particulars of Wallace’s conflated ideas. But he did want to point out that the violence or the vast majority of the violence was coming from Antifa and Antifa was permitted by democrat leaders to burn and destroy neighborhoods. (all of this in that one minute having to answer both Wallace and Biden. Biden jumped into the one minute permissible answer.)

    If Wallace wants a more complete answer then Wallace has to define his terms, not conflate violence with non violence, offensive its defensive.

    If you only engage with those on one side of the aisle and are unaccustomed to looking at both sides of the coin I am sure you will have to study what I am writing because this will be new to you.

    “When did you stop beating your wife” is the perfect example of what was happening there, but Trump has made it clear there and elsewhere he wants peace and is not in favor of offensive violence.”

    We note that your responses to simple questions involve citations that can take from several minutes to an hour to read. Trump had one minute. In the future you can see what you can do in a one minute limit using your own words.

  7. Jonathan: The legendary songwriter Woody Guthrie had a sign on his guitar. It read: “This machine kills fascists”. In the midst of WWII this resonated with with millions of Americans who saw fascism as the ultimate evil. If Woody were alive he would be disappointed the fight against fascism did not end in 1945 but continues today.

    Although the polls show Biden won the debate neither candidate gave a knockout blow. The debate was disappointing and embarrassing. Biden could barely get in a word because Trump bullied, shouted and interrupted Biden and Chris Wallace in violation of the debate rules. One would have hoped for a more dignified debate on the important issues facing the country. But “dignified” is not in Trump’s DNA. The lowlight of the evening was Trump’s refusal to condemn the Proud Boys and other right-wing racist and fascist groups. Proud Boys loved Trump’s “stand down and standby” comment and now uses it as their logo. To that extent the group was the only “winner”. In your posts and Senate testimony you have focused only on Antifa, just like Trump and your good friend AG Barr., while ignoring the more serious violence and threats coming from right-wing terrorist groups. But you think the response to Proud Boys and similar ilk should be “silence and passivity of the public and those in power”. Are you serious? You have apparently not learned the lessons of history. When Hitler was on his march to power Western powers, including the U.S., ignored the threat because they viewed Hitler as a bulwark against Soviet Communism. That was a huge mistake. Had Germans stood up to Hitler’s storm troopers and had Western powers resisted the Fuhrer’s aggression perhaps 15 to 20 million would not have died. That is why the rise of neo-fascist groups, like Proud Boys, here and in Europe, cannot be ignored but must be confronted. And that is why the Antifa movement arose.

    Now Proud Boys, unlike Antifa, has a hierarchical organizational structure (just like Hitler’s brown shirts) with identified leaders and “chapters”. And unlike Antifa the group has “members” and recruits them only among young white males. It believes, like Trump, that white men and Western culture are under siege. Proud Boys opposes feminism–it believes women should be subservient to men…much like “People of Praise”, the secret Catholic covenant community in which Trump’s Supreme Court nominee, Judge Amy Barrett, is a card carrying member. Proud Boys counts as one its supporters Trump’s close friend Roger Stone. In 2018 Proud Boys posted a video featuring Stone who said: “Hi, I’m Roger Stone. I’m a Western chauvinist…”. Although Stone claimed he is not a member of the group, when he was arrested last year Enrique Tarrio, the chairman of Proud Boys, met with Stone as Stone left the courthouse. Tarrio was wearing a “Roger Stone Did Nothing Wrong” T-shirt. He wore the same T-shirt when he attended one of Trump’s televised speech’s in Miami–standing behind Trump.

    If there was any doubt before it should be clear now that Trump is a white supremacist who has courted fascist groups like Proud Boys. He won’t condemn them because he counts on them to be by his side if he decides not to leave office even if he loses the election. This is the real danger you choose to ignore.

  8. “As Trump Equivocates on White Supremacy, the FBI Warns of Right-Wing Terror”

    ‘An intelligence report dated the day of the presidential debate predicts a “violent extremist threat” posed by a far-right militia.’

    By Ken KlippensteinTwitter

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/white-supremacist-boogaloo/

    “While antifa groups have engaged in acts of property destruction and sometimes violence, a recent study published by the Center for Strategic and International Studies found that anti-fascist groups have not been involved in a single murder in the United States in the past 25 years.”

    1. Antifa plays your game. You blame it on other anonymous characters and Antifa blames it on members that participate but supposedly aren’t part of the group. But for Antifa’s actions many people that would be alive today thanks to Antifa are dead.

      Brainless is the King of selection when it comes to looking for data. Unfortunately she doesn’t know the difference between truth and fiction.

      1. “But for Antifa’s actions many people that would be alive today thanks to Antifa are dead.”

        Give us some examples, Allan.

        1. Michael Dorn is the first one that comes to mind. You probably don’t remember him. Look him up and look at his family. Look at his former job and look at what he was doing.

          Look at George Floyd’s funeral (not a good man) and look at Michael Dorn’s funeral.

          You are sick.

      1. Once again the Brainless Wonder searches for things selectively. Our eyes and ears tell a different story.

    3. i have studied the booger bois memes on the internet. they are a trivial number of gun loving anarchists. it is improper to characterize them as right wingers. an anarchist is not a right winger simply because they want to play with machine guns and fantasize blowing things up. if the categories which refer to “domestic terror threats” are to have any political meaning then they have to be appraised for political content. much as the FBI wishes to increase its budgets and placate Democrat constituencies, there is no rational basis to characterize the “meme lords” and hand ful of nobodies so far collared as booger bois, as anything but a strange variety of leftist who wants to play with guns. they are pathetic and they are not substantially different from ANTIFA except they wear Hawaiian shirts instead of black hoodies.

      now the mere fact someone things the US may collapse into civil war after 100 plus days of insurrection does not indicated any political leaning at all. there are a large number of americans who have been polled who seem to expect “civil war 2” and that does not mean they are “booger bois”

      here is the excellent journalist and former liberal James Howard Kunstler on the subject:

      https://dailyreckoning.com/civil-war-two/

      apocalyptic fears have not only been the subject of much religion over thousands of years but they are also a subject of countless movie and tv productions. something more than apocaplyptic insurrectionist ramblings is needed to make a meaningful category out of the booger bois

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