A New Mexico State University professor is the latest professor to pledge to challenge COVID mandates after a strident anti-vaccine lecture that contained comparisons to the Nazis and concentration camps. Business law Professor David Clements had just received the teaching excellence award but could not attend the ceremony over his refusal to wear a mask. The video shows students leaving the lecture, which I felt was inappropriate and over-the-top for making this point. Professor Clements has every right to challenge the mandate but I was astonished by the length and intensity of this lecture that became a diatribe before the students who came for a business law class. Clements was later put on paid administrative leave.Professor Clements insisted that students could or could not wear masks based on their own judgments. However, he would not do so. He also has refused to take the vaccine and went through what he considered the countervailing data on value of vaccines. At George Washington University, my students must wear masks but the faculty can teach without masks if they have six feet of separation. The same rule applies at NMSU, which requires “face coverings at all indoor NMSU system locations and offices around the state when it is not possible to maintain six feet between individuals. Those who are unvaccinated must wear a mask at all times when indoors.”Thus, as an unvaccinated person, Clements must wear a mask at all times.Such rules have been and are likely to be upheld by the courts. They have the support of the CDC and many health experts. Some like Clements disagree but that is insufficient basis for courts in establishing a reasonable basis for mandates. Notably, unlike other professors who object due to their having natural immunities from prior cases of the virus, Clements is rejecting the vaccine due to what he views as objective countervailing data. He is also not claiming a religious exemption.
As many on this blog know, I have an expansive view free speech and academic freedom, including (as in a recent column) some statements in classes that some students would consider insulting or offensive. I have the view of faculty discussing mandates. However, universities have a right to impose what they consider to be reasonable and necessary health measures. A professor should be protected in challenging the basis for the rule while nevertheless complying with the rule. This is his class but it is the university’s classroom.
I also think that this lecture was excessive in its rhetoric and its length. I think a more appropriate approach would have been to state his position more concisely while referring to written statements posted on a blog or some other source if students want to understand better why he opposes the mandate.
However, this type of categorical refusal to comply with the school rule is unlikely to be supported in court. Even natural antibody claims are facing difficult receptions in the court.
Professor Clements clearly cares deeply about teaching and his students. I disagree with him on the vaccine topic. I was eager to take the vaccine and I am tested every two weeks at GWU. However, this is an important debate to have on campuses but there are few opportunities for such exchanges. Indeed, it is outrageous that this video may be banned by social media, which will not allow their users to hear such opposing views. I prefer such points to be made in a forum rather than a class where students signed up to learn a specific subject.
It is also important to recognize that the university also cares for students and has come to an opposing conclusion on the public health requirements for a safe school. Courts uniformly require compliance with such rules. I would however prefer for schools to allow faculty like Clements to teach virtually.
The controversy does raise an interesting issue. If Clements had a religious claim, he would presumably be given an exemption in most businesses. However, if you have philosophical or scientific objection, it is not considered a basis for an exemption. (I could not find whether the university allows exemptions for virtual classes.). Clements clearly has deep-seated objections to the vaccine, but they are science rather than religious based.
In the end, the lecture is unlikely to help his case with the court. A judge is likely to view the class as supporting the university in raising the logistical problems of having multiple faculty take the same stance in classes with students walking out and others objecting to the choice of not taking the course or being taught by an unvaccinated, unmasked professor.
Not what was promised. Fully vaccinated getting infected.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/82-of-public-high-schools-covid-cases-are-among-fully-vaccinated
There are also reports of many cases in Gibralter and Israel where vaccination rates are very high.
“Not what was promised”
Just what do you think was promised?
Turley wrote “However, universities have a right to impose what they consider to be reasonable and necessary health measures. ”
———
But are they actually reasonable and necessary? The premise with the so-called mRNA vaccines (i’ll use the word shots), is that they reduce the possibility of serious illness/death for those who get Covid thus reducing hospital overcrowding and two, they prevent transmission of the Covid virus to others. If both of these premises are not backed up by evidence, then are they really “reasonable and necessary”?
Covid breakthrough infections (that which occurs in previously vaxxed people) are between 20- 30% of all new infections now! Vaxxed people are winding up in the hospital and even dying. Various new reports are stating that the shots “wane” after 5-6 months, which is why so-called “booster” shots are being pushed.
Then there is the issue of virus transmittal. There are numerous reports that vaxxed people harbor significant number of live viruses in their throats and noses and can transmit them to other, just as any sick person would do.
There was an interesting WSJ piece about a month ago, that explains the mRNA vaccines only give some kind of internal immunity that doesn’t work in the nasal area, which results in vaccinated people capable of spewing large amounts of virus out just through their breathing.
———-
Follow Your Nose to Herd Immunity
The biology behind ‘breakthrough’ cases and the confusing CDC mask guidance.
By Michael Segal
Aug. 16, 2021
…..
All this has implications for public-health authorities’ determination to achieve herd immunity through vaccination alone. In the Provincetown, Mass., outbreak, which informed the CDC’s recent change in guidelines, viral loads in the nose were “similarly high” in the vaccinated and unvaccinated, suggesting that the vaccine’s efficacy against infection in the nose had fallen to zero with the advent of the Delta variant. That would mean herd immunity through vaccination is impossible.
….
https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-herd-provincetown-mayo-delta-mask-mandate-vaccine-passport-cdc-mucosal-immunity-11629128219
———–
So if the shots are not protecting people very much any longer and any protections are quickly waning and the vaxxed are spreading viruses particles wantonly, then what is the point of vaccine mandates or pushing vaccination further?
OTOH, those who have had an infections (cases) generally are showing permanent and resilient immunity to all variants of the Covid virus!
“Vaxxed people are winding up in the hospital and even dying.”
The vast majority of people hospitalized with Covid and dying from it now are unvaccinated.
Wrong think on masks punished at Stanford.
https://thefederalist.com/2021/09/15/stanford-faculty-smear-professor-who-accurately-summarized-data-on-masks
I thought this was interesting:
COVID studies evaluating masks on adults. Based on the 95 percent confidence intervals, surgical mask wearers in Denmark were between 23 percent more likely and 46 percent less likely to be infected by COVID.
And
In a Bangladesh study, surgical masks reduced symptomatic COVID infections by between 0 and 22 percent, while the efficacy of cloth masks led to somewhere between an 11 percent increase to a 21 percent decrease. Hence, based on these randomized studies, adult masks appear to have either no or limited efficacy.
I would guess that where masks made infection more likely it might have been because some mask wearers bring hands to face more often.
this is the conversation Americans should be having with their physicians, their politicians, and being disseminated by the corporate media.
Anything written by John Ioannidis is bulletproof.
March 2021 but the principles still apply
Reconciling estimates of global spread and infection fatality rates of COVID-19: An overview of systematic evaluations
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13554
Even correcting inappropriate exclusions/inclusion of studies, errors and seroreversion, IFR (Infection Fatality Rate) still varies substantially across continents and countries. Overall average IFR may be ~0.3%-0.4% in Europe and the Americas (~0.2% among community-dwelling non-institutionalized people) and ~0.05% in Africa14 and Asia (excluding Wuhan).
IFR will depend on settings and populations involved. For example, even ‘common cold’ coronaviruses have IFR~10% in nursing home outbreaks. Admittedly, primary studies, their overviews and the current overview of overviews have limitations. All estimates
have uncertainty. Interpretation unavoidably has subjective elements. This challenge is well-known in the literature of discrepant systematic reviews. Cross-linking diverse types of evidence generates even more diverse eligibility/ design/analytical options. Nevertheless, one should separate clear errors and directional biases from defendable eligibility/ design/analytical diversity. Allowing for such residual uncertainties, reassuringly the picture from the six evaluations assessed here is relatively congruent: SARS-CoV- 2 is widely spread and has lower average IFR than originally feared, and substantial global and local heterogeneity.
That’s interesting and unexpected given the behavior of politicians and medical bureaucrats.
True and here’s another study. This is one of many studies.
But do you ever see this in the MSM anywhere? Of course not. And if you post this info in places like the NYT, WaPO or the LAT, it will almost certainly be blocked or removed as “misinformation”.
How can you have a discussion when you aren’t allowed to present anything that disagrees with the establishment narrative? Why isn’t there any counterpoint at all in the MSM discussing the value of masks? Go ahead and wear a mask if it makes YOU feel better but don’t require me to embrace YOUR fear and also wear a makes simply because it makes YOU feel better. This is where we are at with mask wearing.
===========
Published Online: 21 July 2021
Experimental investigation of indoor aerosol dispersion and accumulation in the context of COVID-19: Effects of masks and ventilation
Physics of Fluids 33, 073315 (2021);
ABSTRACT
The ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of aerosol dispersion in disease transmission in indoor environments. The present study experimentally investigates the dispersion and build-up of an exhaled aerosol modeled with polydisperse microscopic particles (approximately 1 µm mean diameter) by a seated manikin in a relatively large indoor environment. The aims are to offer quantitative insight into the effect of common face masks and ventilation/air purification, and to provide relevant experimental metrics for modeling and risk assessment. Measurements demonstrate that all tested masks provide protection in the immediate vicinity of the host primarily through the redirection and reduction of expiratory momentum. However, leakages are observed to result in notable decreases in mask efficiency relative to the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material, even in the case of high-efficiency masks, such as the R95 or KN95. Tests conducted in the far field (2 m distance from the subject) capture significant aerosol build-up in the indoor space over a long duration (10 h). A quantitative measure of apparent exhalation filtration efficiency is provided based on experimental data assimilation to a simplified model. The results demonstrate that the apparent exhalation filtration efficiency is significantly lower than the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material. Nevertheless, high-efficiency masks, such as the KN95, still offer substantially higher apparent filtration efficiencies (60% and 46% for R95 and KN95 masks, respectively) than the more commonly used cloth (10%) and surgical masks (12%), and therefore are still the recommended choice in mitigating airborne disease transmission indoors. The results also suggest that, while higher ventilation capacities are required to fully mitigate aerosol build-up, even relatively low air-change rates (2 h-1) lead to lower aerosol build-up compared to the best performing mask in an unventilated space.
https://doi.org/10.1063/5.0057100
Joko, Thanks for that link. The information is great.
I noted:
“The results demonstrate that the apparent exhalation filtration efficiency is significantly lower than the ideal filtration efficiency of the mask material.”
I have been saying [I think here] that theoretical mask efficiency is not a reliable guide for policy makers and that real investigation is needed.
The potential weakness in the study is that it is of masks and not masks + people. Easily observable human behavior in public spaces shows how mask efficiency will be impaired and may increase infection. People with masks tend to touch their faces more, wear them improperly, and wear them dirty. I suppose the ergonomics of masks are a factor.
Closed spaces allow buildup of viruses and it is heartening to see that even moderate increases in airflow or exchange can make a difference. That is something that can be improved on and does not rely on variable human behavior for effectiveness.
Months ago I read of LED lights that put out a UV spectrum and I wondered here if air ducts in larger facilities could have those lights installed so that any air passing through the duct would have viruses killed without exposing occupants of the building to UV. Seems like it would be cheap and could help in high risk environments.
This is so overblown it isn’t funny. i am from that state, the governor pretty much reads the DNC missive in the morning and then defers, nothing here is as bad as claimed regarding COVID. It is pure drama. Clarity and drama cannot coexist. This guy was making a point, however ill-advised, and it is valid. We have a very high vaccination rate in this state, and the rest have antibodies. Do not accept the narrative; in NM our politicians are DNC hucksters. End of story. There is not a single person here in mortal danger. We would vote them out if we could, but to our politicians, emulating California seems like a really good idea has been for a decade or more. Who can fail the fastest?
If the ‘vaccine’ is so great it is hard to explain why so many CDC staff are slow to get it and why Congress has exempted itself.
Seeing how congressional trough feeders operate, if the vaccine were truly great they would be getting it ahead of everyone else. We would be elbowed aside.
Something doesn’t add up.
Reposted from my comment below.
All of the Democrats in Congress are vaccinated.
With actual COVID vaxxes? Or saline, for show?
I actually have to give you credit: navigating life with your eyes closed and bind-folded is no mean feat. Good job.
ROFLMAO
good one.
I don’t know where the link is online but I recall the Texas State Democrats fleeing Austin for a getaway to Washington DC, with cases of beer on their airplane, and taking photos of themselves, morbidly obese females, on the plane sans masks. As if….. I forget how many of the Democrats from Texas succumbed to COVID-19. I don’t believe they ever disclosed it because of….reasons. But it was great theater none of us could have produced. Democrats refuse the vaccine as well which is to say Blacks, Hispanics and Whites in Congress. Then there are many health care professionals who refuse the vaccine. Although I received mine in January x 2, and my family as well, shortly thereafter, I completely understand why some refuse it. Their choice. Their body. Oh wait, that’s the abortion mantra, AMIRITE?
I’m stuck on campus right now, and the kids, faculty and staff are required to wear masks inside the buildings, but the second people step outside onto the pavement, masks come flying off. The kids are over it. So am I.
If this pathogen were Mycobacterium tuberculosis or Ebola, this would be a whole different story.
“All of the Democrats in Congress are vaccinated.”
***
Then why do they need an exemption?
What part of the separation of powers do you not understand?
An executive branch mandate doesn’t apply to Congress. This is nothing new.
Apparently the mandate applies to all Americans. What part of ‘Americans’ don’t you understand?
Or, as Estovir snarked, maybe the folks in Congress aren’t really Americans. It’s getting easier to sell that idea every day.
“Apparently the mandate applies to all Americans.”
Says an ignorant guy who clearly hasn’t bothered to read what Biden’s plan actually says. It’s on the WH website, but reading it is too much effort for you.
It’s on the WH website, but reading it is too much effort for you.”
***
I waiting for President Pinocchio to hold a talk explaining ‘his’ plan to all of us.
Do you think he can make it through a whole paragraph before they start yanking power cables to his audio?
I don’t.
By the way, the Democrats in Congress have declined to require illegal and Afghan immigrants to be vaccinated. I wonder why that is?
Things don’t add up.
He already did. The more you write, the more ignorance you display.
Please do post the vaccination legislation that Republicans in Congress have attempted to introduce for immigrants (legal or illegal).
I think you must be bad at math.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/15/democrats-reject-plan-to-mandate-coronavirus-vaccines-for-immigrants
“Every Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee opposed the vaccine mandate for immigrants while every Republican supported the measure.”
It was in committee.
The Democrats control Congress. If they wanted migrants vaccinated it would be done. They don’t. Why? Do they want more Wuhan virus seeded throughout the country? Seems like.
Ask them, not me. As for whatever Breitbart is referring to, I want to see the actual text of the amendment before I judge. I wouldn’t be surprised if they introduced something extreme and voted in favor of it for headlines, knowing that it wouldn’t make it out of committee.
“I want to see the actual text of the amendment before I judge.”
**
I don’t care what you ‘judge’. I generally post for others. 8f you want to see ‘thet tedt’ look it up.
Well you’re not posting it for others either.
To be clear: if immigrants work for executive branch agencies, Biden’s new rule will apply to them. Ditto for immigrants who work for companies with 100 or more employees.
I’m going to guess that mandating vaccination might be easier with illegal immigrants because they can addressed through employers whereas Afghan immigrants would be more dependent on what state they end up in. The two categories may overlap in key areas, but illegal immigrants often work in a limited set of industries.
eb
Agreed !!!
It is because they don’t know how to tell the truth period.
Young, there’s one in every crowd.
Seems like.
Too bad they weren’t sterilized.
and their staffs?
Sterilize them to.
Nothing about the COVID response adds up, at least not in America. The DNC couldn’t have invented a better tool to serve their aims than the vagaries of an unknown virus. Meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to move on, and generally speaking, are. Ultimately, this will only accelerate the entropy the American Democratic party has fomented for so long. I honestly do not know what they are thinking, and it remains to be seen whether or not it will slum-ify us writ large.
Jonathan: You are on a slippery slope in defending the indefensible, i.e., professors like David Clements who refuse to get vaccinated or wear a face mask. His long winded and unscientific justification of his position prompted students to get up and leave the classroom. But you criticize them for doing the sensible thing–refusing to be exposed to Covid. Clements made an edited video of his “lecture” because he apparently wants to be a conservative cause celebre for anti-vaxers everywhere. He posted the video on “Rumble”, a right-wing social media platform. The video was picked up by other conservative groups. “GiveSendGo”, a Christian “Crowdfunding site”, is championing Clements’ cause by setting up a defense fund. GiveSendGo was founded by Joe Oltmann who also founded “FEC United”, a right-wing group that promotes conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. Clements appears on conservative podcasts and Tucker Carlson’s Fox show. So Clements is part of the Fox effort and other right-wing groups to undermine the Biden administration’s fight against Covid. As a paid frequent contributor on Fox you are a willing participant in undermining public health measures.
It is your right still to say what you feel about this professor but it is still his right to say how he feels about the mandate of a vaccine that has been again and again indicated as not being what it was noted to be in the beginning. And so say what you want because you still have that right at least for now. And the exclusion of immigrants and illegals is not BS and neither is the exclusion for the Congress . So you need to quick drinking the Dem cool aid guy .
[Clements made an edited video of his “lecture” because he apparently wants to be a conservative cause celebre for anti-vaxers everywhere. He posted the video on “Rumble”, a right-wing social media platform.]
Your “argument” is so filled with “reading the mind of others to support your derogatory presuppositions” that I doubt you could be objectively honest if you tried as hard as you could.
I might suggest you should be ashamed of yourself, but I suspect you are too far gone.
Here is an interesting chart and article on the effectiveness of mask mandates in Minnesota.
Essentially no positive effect. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/09/do-mask-mandates-work.php
I have something like this before. I posted here that immediately after California imposed a strict lockdown and mandate last December cases soared. Our politicians don’t seem to know what they are doing.
No they sure do not and worse yet they don’t follow their own guidelines for their states or cities . We have way too many double standards any more in this country for the Politicians and Elite individuals. Besides that if you are going to mandate then don’t give special exemptions to a bunch of illegals coming from other countries that we have no idea what so ever what they will be bringing in with them. And the refugees need to go back and stand up for their own country and fight instead of pushing their way into our country when we can’t hardly take care of ourselves least wise anyone else.
There are no “special exemptions to a bunch of illegals.”
As for “the refugees need to go back and stand up for their own country and fight,” I’d have more sympathy for your view if the US wasn’t actively f’g things up in a lot of foreign countries, whether by starting a war (as in Afghanistan) or via drug laws (as in Central America) or via an outsized impact on climate change.
The *Science* of Natural Immunity
Keyboard warriors assert that natural immunity is a hoax perpetrated by anti-vaxxers.
Then there is the actual science of natural immunity — the efficacy of which has been known for decades. And is now proven for Covid:
“The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine . . .”
The Israeli study is “‘a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,’ says Charlotte Thålin, a physician and immunology researcher at Danderyd Hospital and the Karolinska Institute who studies the immune responses to SARS-CoV-2.”
https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital
(To anticipate a ridiculous response: The study is *not* an argument against vaccination or for hosting an “infection party.” It’s an argument for the efficacy of natural immunity.)
“Keyboard warriors assert that natural immunity is a hoax perpetrated by anti-vaxxers.”
A claim for which you provide no evidence.
As for the article you linked to, it also says “The researchers also found that people who had SARS-CoV-2 previously and received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine were more highly protected against reinfection than those who once had the virus and were still unvaccinated. … the researchers compared more than 14,000 people who had a confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection and were still unvaccinated with an equivalent number of previously infected people who received one dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The team found that the unvaccinated group was twice as likely to be reinfected as the singly vaccinated. … the immune systems of people who develop natural immunity to SARS-CoV-2 and then get vaccinated produce exceptionally broad and potent antibodies against the coronavirus.”
So even those who’ve had Covid are better off getting vaccinated.
“A claim for which you provide no evidence.”
I could provide you with scores of examples (from this blog and the culture at large). Your reply would be something along the lines of: “But they didn’t hyphenate ‘anti-vaxxer’.”
I wouldn’t, and there’s an easy way for you to test your conjecture: present your examples of “Keyboard warriors assert that natural immunity is a hoax perpetrated by anti-vaxxers.”
I’d be happy to be convinced that ignorant people are claiming what you say, and I don’t know how you’d feel to see that your assumption about me is wrong.
Not interested in your diversion.
The fundamental issue is the robust efficacy of *natural* immunity.
Again: by your own citation, natural immunity + immunization provides more protection than natural immunity alone.
And if you don’t like “diversions,” don’t make false claims about me.
Sam: “Your reply would be something along the lines of: “But they didn’t hyphenate ‘anti-vaxxer’.”
***
Sam, you have captured his mode of discussion perfectly.
A) the kind of masks that are mandated (i.e. any old face covering) do not prevent virus transmission and even Fauci has admitted that. Therefore the mask mandate is all about control and zero about health. If Clements doesn’t want to participate in this worldwide sadomaso fantasy I don’t blame him. B) the “vaccine” that has FDA approval, Comirnaty, is not even available in the US. So people are being forced to get vaccines with EUA such as Pfizer,Moderna, and J and J which they are being led to believe are FDA approved, but they’re not. Therefore there is zero liability. Normally, when a product receives FDA approval, the EUA is removed from other products but somehow that didn’t happen here. C) these “vaccines” are racking up deaths and permanent disabilities right and left. College athletes are going blind, developing heart disease. Babies are dying in the womb. Breastfed newborns are dying. All of these injuries are being hidden. Why? D) ivermectin and hcq have been proven safe, cheap and effective in study after study. An entire state in India with over 250 million people is now completely covid free thanks to ivermectin. Why are we still forcing people to get a product injected that can never be removed, about which the long term effects cannot be known, and which doesn’t protect against transmission? E) the inventor of mrna technology has been begging for a pause as more and more deaths and adverse events are seen and he has been vilified by his former liberal buddies. Why? F) the swine flu vaccine was withdrawn after 52 deaths. We don’t even know how many deaths this jab has caused but it’s way more than 52. How can you, in good conscience, support forcing people to get an injection than can kill them or permanently disable them to counter a disease with a 99.99% recovery rate? G) the point about college kids showing up for a law lecture and not whatever Clements did is valid. On the other hand, if you were a professor of law in Nazi Germany and you stood up and gave an impassioned speech against what you saw happening, how do you think history would judge you as opposed to the guy blogging in favor of the government?
So do I read this right? The vaccines they are “mandating” are not even approved by the FDA?
How can that be?
I’d like to hear more about that and these deaths from the vaccine.
Needless to say I’ll be reading up on that today. It’s a rainy day and I’m home so this is gonna fester.
Not FDA approved…I don’t get how they can be doing this then if that’s true.
Chris,
It’s not true. Don’t trust what a random internet commenter claims.
“On August 23, 2021, the FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.” https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/comirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine
Deborah’s claim that “the “vaccine” that has FDA approval, Comirnaty, is not even available in the US” is totally false.
I hate responding to an anonymous poster who is trolling, but in this case since I didn’t know one way or the other I reviewed the link you provided.
It says it wasn’t approved until Aug 23 2021.
So what have all these millions and millions of people who are vaccinated been given? They’ve been “jabbing” them all year. A non FDA approved vaccine?
It says this one was the “first” approved and it wasn’t approved until a few weeks ago. So what did they push on all these other millions of people?
They’ve been compelling people to get vaccinated all year, mostly through industry taking away peoples livelihoods if they didn’t get the “jab”. And NONE of it was approved by the FDA during that whole time until a few weeks ago? And then only 1??
What are all the other people taking who are being given another one?
I’m posting anonymously, but not trolling. I recognize that there’s no good way for you to distinguish among all the people who comment here anonymously unless you spend enough time reading the comments to get to know people’s writing styles.
I’ll try to address your questions.
The Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J vaccines all obtained FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) before millions of people were vaccinated. Here’s some info about these EUAs: https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained An EUA is different from full approval. Pfizer also applied for full approval, but that takes longer to obtain, and it was granted in August. The Pfizer vaccine that people got earlier under the EUA is the same vaccine that the FDA gave full approval in August and that Pfizer is now distributing under the name Comirnaty.
Deborah falsely claimed “the “vaccine” that has FDA approval, Comirnaty, is not even available in the US.” Comirnaty is the very same vaccine that Pfizer has been providing all along, and it *is* available in the US. The other two have not yet gotten full FDA approval, but both have gotten EUAs.
Does that address your questions well enough? If not, ask more and I’ll try to give accurate answers.
Yes you are trolling, and yes there’s absolutely no way to tell, “writing style” or otherwise who the f$# you are in any way shape or form. You could be some paid PR person for the company, or the FDA itself. You could be some govt contractor trolling for the jab. You could be a rep for the company making it, some lunatic in his moms basement or a Russian troll. You could be anything or anyone. Heck you could be half the trolls in here.
The only thing I know about you, is that you want me to believe the vaccine is safe, and you’re so confident in your words but not enough to put your own f$#king name on them.
That’s what I know about you.
And as for not trolling, your comment was full of holes as is this one, just reframing it to sound like something its not.
Everything you just wrote still amounts, to the govt pressuring businesses all year to compel a definitively experimental vaccine on an unsuspecting population that they are sooo sure is safe, yet not safe enough to put the FDA stamp of approval on, until a couple weeks ago and then only ONE.
Nothing you wrote changes that. You just keep rewording the same hole filled song and dance, and yes that’s trolling.
“Yes you are trolling”
What did I write that’s false or misleading or uncivil?
“you’re so confident in your words but not enough to put your own f$#king name on them. ”
The vast majority of commenters here do not put their own f$#king names on their comments. Most here use pseudonyms. For you, does pseudonymous or anonymous commenting itself equate to trolling?
“your comment was full of holes as is this one”
Again: did I say something false or misleading? I am not going to write pages and pages on your behalf in order to make sure that I include absolutely everything you might want to know and avoid any holes. If that’s what you want, pay for a tutor.
“Everything you just wrote still amounts, to the govt pressuring businesses all year to compel a definitively experimental vaccine on an unsuspecting population that they are sooo sure is safe, yet not safe enough to put the FDA stamp of approval on, until a couple weeks ago and then only ONE.”
Nope.
First, Biden did not pressure businesses all year.
Second, the new mandate is “The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated OR require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.” So don’t pretend that people are compelled even now to be vaccinated if they’re not federal employees.
Third, everyone who has been vaccinated so far got info that it was an EUA. If you didn’t read it or didn’t understand the difference between an EUA and full approval, don’t blame me.
The fact remains that Deborah’s statement that I quoted was false, and she has not substantiated any of her other claims. If you want to complain about my correcting her false statement, so be it.
From what I am reading, the govt is literally saying take this “new” vaccine into your bodies and its very safe. But not safe enough that we want to put our official stamp of approval on it, …in case we get sued if it turns out to be harmful.
Someone tell me how that is not the case.
Members of Congress, staff exempt from Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate
https://americanmilitarynews.com/2021/09/members-of-congress-staff-exempt-from-biden-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/
It is like Barack Obama’s mandated health care reform for Americans except for members of the US Congress…because they’re not American?
I hate responding to an anonymous poster who is trolling…
I respond to them only when I wish to inform the readers of some relevant scientific point. Otherwise Anonymous are cowards who do not merit our time or energy.
American Nomenclatura.
“It is like Barack Obama’s mandated health care reform for Americans except for members of the US Congress…because they’re not American?”
No. It’s because Congress chose to exempt itself from the ACA.
As for Members of Congress, staff exempt from Biden COVID-19 vaccine mandate, that’s because the executive branch mandates don’t apply to the legislative branch and because Congress exempted itself from OSHA.
If you want to complain about it, at least understand the separation of powers in the US and how Congress sometimes exempts itself from its own legislation.
The FDA put their official Emergency Use Authorization stamp of approval on all 3 vaccines used in the US before millions of people were vaccinated with them.
The FDA put their official stamp of full approval on the Pfizer vaccine in August. Moderna submitted its application for full approval about a month after Pfizer, and the FDA is in the midst of assessing the application, but I bet it will get full approval soon. I’m not sure about the timing of the J&J application for full approval.
If it is so great it is hard to explain why so many CDC staff are slow to get it and why Congress has exempted itself.
Seeing how congressional trough feeders operate, if the vaccine were truly great they would be getting it ahead of everyone else.
Something doesn’t add up.
You haven’t presented evidence that “so many CDC staff are slow to get it.”
All of the Democrats in Congress were vaccinated months ago: https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/14/politics/democrats-vaccination-rates-house-mask-rules/index.html
Congress exempts itself from all sorts of things: https://www.propublica.org/article/do-as-we-say-congress-says-then-does-what-it-wants
In an attempt to discredit the testimony USA says that it is not true that 40% or so of CDC staff are ‘refusing’ to get the vaccine. That’s one of your deceptions: Create a straw man to knock down.
But the testimony only was that about that many were not vaccinated and no reason was given. They put up a fake ‘reason’ to shoot down and hide the underlying truth.
But the question is, why have so many people best placed to know the risks and benefits of the vaccine not rushed to get it as less well informed people like you have done?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/05/30/fact-check-fauci-didnt-say-cdc-fda-staff-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/7474372002
“That’s one of your deceptions: Create a straw man to knock down.”
LOL, I literally quoted you. No straw man from me.
The article says “Walensky told the Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee that CDC employees have the option to submit their vaccination status. However, because it is not required by the federal government, the exact percentage is unknown, she said.” That certainly isn’t evidence for your claim that “so many CDC staff are slow to get it.”
Keep shooting yourself in the foot.
From the USA article:
“Speaking about employees of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, Fauci responded saying, “You know I’m not 100% sure, senator. But I think it’s probably a little bit more than half, probably around 60%.”
Burr posed the same question to Marks, who said he couldn’t give “the exact number” of vaccinated FDA employees but that it was “probably in the same range” of 60%.
So about 40% not vaccinated for some reason.
But Anon chose to quote the more vague and evasive Walensky dodge, coupled with insults, rather than admit the truth.
This is why, Anon, so many say you are dishonest in discourse. You are.
But, I am left wondering after this testimony why, if vaccination status is so vitally important, these pompous bureaucrats didn’t know exactly how many people on their staffs weren’t vaccinated? It’s almost as if they didn’t really care.
“Anon chose to quote the more vague and evasive Walensky dodge, coupled with insults, rather than admit the truth.”
No, Young, I quoted the part about the CDC because YOU claimed “so many CDC staff are slow to get it,” and I’d asked you to back up YOUR claim. Instead of admitting that your article did not have evidence for YOUR own claim, you now try to move the goalposts to other agencies.
Again: do you have evidence for your claim that “so many CDC staff are slow to get it”?
Even if what you assert was true (it’s not), remember that FDA actually approved Vioxx, which killed tens of thousands during the five years it was approved before being unapproved and pulled from the market. I take any FDA seal of approval with a very large grain of salt.
“Even if what you assert was true (it’s not)”
I try to correct my mistakes. What did I say that’s false?
Lets not forget Zantac, and about 30 other drugs and potions that ended up curing illness by killing the host. So many people are down groveling at the feet of big for profit medicine and never bothering to realize that they’re still being sold potions by snake oil salesmen only these wear lab coats and have a college degree.
[Deborah’s claim that “the “vaccine” that has FDA approval, Comirnaty, is not even available in the US” is totally false.]
Nonsense. The specific gene therapy called Comirnaty is not available.
No, as I already pointed out (quoting and linking to evidence from the FDA), Comirnaty is the very same Pfizer vaccine that has been available for the entire year.
And I’m done talking to that anonymous troll who’s still running his mouth, making bullet points out of every phrase I said, rephrasing his arguments as if I’m supposed to respond to each one all over again. This is why I despise trolls. Endless circular logic over and over and over, and of course his bulls$@# lies about the govt not imposing on people, as if millions of peoples livelihoods haven’t and weren’t being threatened by their employers who have been compelling this mandate mentality all year thanks to govt pressure, influence and even monetary rewards for curtailing their workers rights to a second opinion.
None of his babble changed the fact that the FDA just got around to approving 1 drug. That bs about emergency approval is nothing more than a hail Mary pass, “yea go ahead and give it to them and lets see what happens”.
It was so safe they didn’t put their official approval on it meaning it hadn’t gone through the process they hold all these health and beauty supplement manufacturers to every day, or the people making any consumables to the public. THEY have to go through the process for approval or its “not FDA approved”. But not here.
I am not saying the vaccine is safe or not safe. I don’t know. But neither does some anonymous troll blogging on his keyboard. He doesn’t know either. What we do know is there’s lots of them and people are getting different ones in different areas as that’s how it is here, and yet only ONE of them has the actual FDA approval on it, not some emergency measure but the actual approval and that one only a few weeks ago. Even though by their own brag millions have already taken it and the others.
So excuse the $# out of me if I want a second opinion other than being browbeat online by some double-talking troll repeating mine and his words endlessly and who is sooooo confident in his own words that I supposed to trust my health to his f#$ing armchair opinion of the same data I am looking at, …yet not enough to put his own name on them.
I’m not some “antivaxxer” or whatever they wish to call it. I have never been opposed to vaccines as a whole, Nor would I refuse to wear a mask were I asked by an establishment to do so or make a scene, etc. I’d either put one on politely or politely not go in in the first place. I do make my own health choices however, not let a goose-stepping mentality of public peer pressure compel me into choosing their health choices for my body. People have lost their jobs over not taking the vaccine, and maybe for some armchair internet hack who gets paid to sit online all day running his mouth about things way over his and whoever’s reading it’s paygrade its not a big deal. But for those out there who you know, actually work for a living in a trade or skill related field losing their job can be devastating. Much more so than any disease that MOST people recover easily from. But trolls like this one keep selling it online. It was ironic to read the challenge to the statement by denying an “army of keyboard warriors” or something to that effect. As if he weren’t aware he was one of the conscripted whether by intent or design.
I never thought I’d live in an America where our rights to our own bodies and health decisions thereof were being removed by the state and the state influenced corporations pressured into carrying out those demands, but here we are.
And just wait. I’m seeing stories online now about this new “Africa virus” something completely different but of course “10 times worse”.
Once the genies out of the bottle, its hard to get her back in.
Just ask Tony Nelson.
“Thus, as an unvaccinated person, Clements must wear a mask at all times.Such rules have been and are likely to be upheld by the courts. They have the support of the CDC and many health experts. Some like Clements disagree but that is insufficient basis for courts in establishing a reasonable basis for mandates. ” — Jonathan Turley
Here’s where our paths diverge Professor, although they shouldn’t. (if this is a bit rambling apologies, long day and very tired but wanted to respond to this article)
We have come to a point where the CDC and “many health experts” are deciding health decisions for everyone, and any alternative information is treated as practically heresy, certainly its treated as lunacy or ignorance. Even your summation makes it sound as if the jury were in, as it were. But its not.
The fact is not all the experts agree, and many of the smartest experts contradict the for want of a better term; “official state position” on masks. The Dutch are smart logical people. I know my father was a Dutchman, coming to America with his family in 1928. I’ve always admired the Dutch and their ingenuity. Where the rest of the world often sees a problem, they see solutions.
Well, the top Dutch scientists all concurred that Masks do NOT help, and in fact may make it worse. In fact their official National Institute for Public Health officially decreed ““Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,” — “There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.”.
“From a medical perspective there is no proven effectiveness of masks” – Netherlands Minister for Medical Care Tamara van Ark.
So in Holland they didn’t impose a national mask mandate except in public transportation.
In Sweden, their scientists arrived at the same conclusions and likewise Sweden did not impose a national mask mandate, going even further not even requiring them on public transportation.
Yet miraculously none of the chicken little “the sky is falling” predictions by Fauci came to fruition. No mass deaths. No rampant out of control virus spread. The Dutch and the Swede’s are still breathing and they’re doing it without a cloth over their face.
Yet that information is not promulgated in the news like the fear mongering and panic is. In fact try to spread a little of that information on Facebook and watch how quickly you’re banned for “spreading Covid misinformation”. Its treated like heresy even in our courts.
Why?
Are all the scientists in Holland just ignorant? Are they redneck Trump supporters? Lowbrows? Are the Dutch stupid? Are the Swedes stupid? Are they all gonna die tomorrow because they’re not wearing a mask? Did they all die already and we just didn’t hear about it yet because no ones there to answer the phone?
Its easy for a guy like Fauci to sit back and declare the masks work. And its easy for polling firms to produce numbers to reinforce any argument. If you’ve ever worked at a polling or survey center, you’ll know those numbers say whatever you want them to say. Its all in how the questions are asked, who you’re asking, who does the asking and who interprets the data.
You say the antibody argument isn’t given credence in court. Well its not an argument. It was basic biology and immunology fact up until March 2020 when the CDC and the Media declared hundreds of years of proven science to be false. Now its considered heresy.
You say the courts are going to lean towards the science, but its not “the science” but “some science” from “some scientists” that they are heralding as some kind of scientific law, and all else need not apply.
It would be one thing if it were just a handful of backroom quacks and alternative medicine merchants offering contradictory opinions. But its not.
Its the official dept of health for not just one but several entire developed Nations contradicting our panicked knee jerk science.
Just 2 short years ago Americans, including American medical personnel were lambasting “germaphobes” who walked around in public wearing facemasks. It was considered a form of neurosis. A mental condition, suffered by a handful of “kooks”.
Yet now its law.
It has always been the position of American medicine up until March of last year, for pretty much any vaccine or immunization that “healthy people do not need to be vaccinated, only the very old or those with compromised immune systems. It has always been taught that our autoimmune response will be our vaccine. Until now. Now all of that information is considered ignorance and heresy and shouted down, silenced, even blacklisted.
We are lying about the science. Its not at all conclusive.
We are pretending that there is no logical argument or good science against wearing facemasks. There is. Entire developed nations have officially said so, but we refuse to hear it, and worse, refuse others the right to speak it in public, or for it to be considered in court.
We are lying that the data shows we must wear masks. We have entire countries that prove that data flawed at best. (manipulated is more likely).
There is plenty of contradictory evidence yet its not being heard. In fact its being banned and the bearer’s thereof blacklisted.
I would think this would be of alarm to you. But it sounds as if the bamboozle has captured you too.
-Chris
“If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle.
We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us.
It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken.”
― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8583925/The-land-no-face-masks-Hollands-scientists-say-theres-no-solid-evidence-coverings-work.html
https://summit.news/2020/07/31/netherlands-refuses-to-mandate-face-masks-sweden-says-they-are-pointless/
thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/hollands-top-scientists-say-no-evidence-face-masks-work-may-actually-cause-harm/
Chris Weber,
You might not have been made aware but this website only permits two hyperlinks per comment. I edited the last link on your comment so that it would post. If in the future you wish to have the readership review more than two links, this may be accomplished through the posting of multiple comments of two of fewer links each.
Thank you, I was wondering why it didn’t show up after I clicked submit. I figured it was gone and thought, “there’s 15 minutes of my life I’m not getting back” lol.
This may be one of the first signs of problems we hoped would not appear but feared might.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/idaho-doctor-reports-a-20-times-increase-of-cancer-in-vaccinated-patients/?utm_source=wnd&utm_medium=wnd&utm_campaign=syndicated
This is rich: Massa Biden is descended from slave owners.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/14/biden-related-to-maryland-slave-owners-report/
California just passed a law requiring that all illegal immigrants (200,000 per month) Must show proof of having been vaccinated before they can enter the country. Sorry, I meant to say that California didn’t pass a law requiring all illegal immigrants (200,000 per month) to be vaccinated before they are allowed to enter the country. MY BAD.
hiiiiiiii
Texas didn’t either.
Because … border regulation is the feds.
But don’t let facts get in the way of your rant.
Are negligence and dereliction options for the “feds?”
Is a border an option for a country?
Does an invasion of a “…heterogeneous compound,..” tending to “…a discordant intermixture…” constitute immigration?
______________________________________________________________________________________________
“The influx of foreigners must, therefore, tend to produce a heterogeneous compound; to change and corrupt the national spirit; to complicate and confound public opinion; to introduce foreign propensities. In the composition of society, the harmony of the ingredients is all-important, and whatever tends to a discordant intermixture must have an injurious tendency.”
– Alexander Hamilton
California has just past a law requiring that if you attend an outdoor event where more than 10,000 are in attendance you will be required to show proof of having been vaccinated. Listen up California football and basketball fans. You can go to such events and even if you are vaccinated you can spread the virus to others and other people who have been vaccinated can spread the virus to you. Soon they will say that you can not attend such events at all. Oh wait, they already did that!
If illegals don’t need a shot or mask as they invade the border then why does any citizen? The illegals must be docile enough already.
National Interest Collides With Interest Of Trumpers
Most Republicans believe they are locked in a long Cold War with Democrats. And Donald Trump is doing everything possible to make this cold war a hot war. In pursuit of this war, Republicans feel they must resist virtually every single policy put forth by Joseph Biden and the Democrats.
Therefore our struggle with the pandemic is hostage to this war Republicans are waging. It is in our national interest, of course, to put the pandemic behind us as soon as possible. In terms of lives and financial costs, the pandemic has been on par with a global war. Here in the U.S., an entire generation has faced an unprecedented disruption of the educational process. Numerous small businesses have fallen to the pandemic. And still the pandemic casts suspense. We are now entering a third winter of pandemic conditions.
This is a moment like WWII where every American needs to cooperate. We need to unite as a country in defeating this pandemic. Yet Republicans are far more concerned with pursuing their war against Democrats. So every day the news features stories about Republican leaders opposing health mandates. The idea seems to be that so-called ‘personal freedoms’ are more important than defeating the pandemic. Which means there is really no hope for this country. America is essentially finished as a global power if one major political party seeks total destruction of the other party at the expense of everything else.
Well Anonymous what is the final solution. If some people will not comply what should the penalty be? You pontificate about patriotism as you now wave the American flag when in the past you have called for changes to the Constitution so it will be more aligned with your centralized government position. How ironic. You leave out the final solution o the vaccine dilemma. Please tell us what you are thinking. Concentration camps perhaps?
hi
Right. We must obey fools, knaves and (ever since Benedict Milley) now traitors. It’s the Communist way.
Anonymous — All of that crap and not once did you mention the responsibility of China and Fauci for creating this pandemic. Yes there have been losses, but those responsible should pay.
“. . . the responsibility of China and Fauci for creating this pandemic.”
You’d think that after the horrors of Nazi “science” and Soviet “science,” scientists would have learned not to lend their brains to totalitarians. Instead, Fauci, Daszak, et al., support and conduct viral research in a dictatorship (China). They are, quite probably, complicit in mass murder.
Sam – “Fauci, Daszak, et al., support and conduct viral research in a dictatorship (China). They are, quite probably, complicit in mass murder.”
***
I suspect so too. That is why they stomped on any suggestion they China virus came from the Wuhan lab.
It would trace back to them.
aninny:
“The idea seems to be that so-called ‘personal freedoms’ are more important than defeating the pandemic. Which means there is really no hope for this country. America is essentially finished as a global power if one major political party seeks total destruction of the other party at the expense of everything else.”
**************************************
Now your’re getting it. Personal freedom trumps everything including a phony pandemic with a 99.89% survival rate. It sure took you long enough. Maybe you’d do better in some third world dictatorship where you could coddle up to the tyrant and mouth his every word. And don’t worry about America when you’re off bootlicking, we’ll be fine and a global power once the Communists in our midst are dealt with.
Just for your education it’s not what you call Republican’s that are not taking the vaccine check the data 40% of black people are unvaccinated 58% of Hispanics are not vaccinated. There are far more black and brown people unvaccinated than any other group in the country and with good reason they do not trust the government when it comes to healthcare because of the past. The government experiments on black and brown people in the past in the 1930’s 1950’s and in the 1960’s so there is still mistrust in the government and it’s healthcare recommendations because of this history. 80% of the people in Harlem New York is unvaccinated and are now not allowed to go to a restaurant or bar which is basically de-facto segregation for these people. WHICH IS WRONG!!! So as you an obvious Democratic individual can see by the data and you and anyone else can look it up so don’t bother your tit for tat stupid response because it means nothing to me and you will get no response from me. These are facts which I know you will have a problem with but to bad.
Bryan “The government experiments on black and brown people in the past in the 1930’s 1950’s and in the 1960’s so there is still mistrust in the government and it’s healthcare”
***
What are you talk8ng about?
Throughout history, tyrants have always used two techniques to enslave people: Declare that there is a real (or imagined) “emergency.” Then declare that that “emergency” demands sacrifices — for the collective, the “greater good,” the “national interest.”
The only “war” here is the Democrats’ war on the concept of limited government and individual rights (what some disparage as “personal freedoms.”) The war now is the individual versus the government — and a statist government is winning.
Incidentally, schools and businesses were *not* closed because of the pandemic. They were shuttered by power-lusting politicians and their fascist policies.
I’m vaccinated. Will get a flu shot in October. But I don’t believe in forcing anyone to do what I did voluntarily. But then again Vice President Harris wants to protect me from those who didn’t get vaccinated. Excuse me, but why the hell did I get vaccinated if I need to be protected from those who didn’t . What kind of scam is this? And do we still live in America?
“why the hell did I get vaccinated if I need to be protected from those who didn’t”
The vaccines are not 100% effective. Also, you are not the only person in the world: some people are immune compromised and the vaccines are less effective for them, some people (kids) are too young to be vaccinated, … Everyone needs to be protected as well as possible. This requires us to pitch in on each other’s behalf, not only for our own benefit.
Everyone needs to be protected as well as possible.
You use a lot of ill defined and subjective terms.
What is your goal? What are you attempting to achieve?
Explaining why people who are eligible to be vaccinated should choose to be vaccinated even though the vaccine isn’t 100% effective.
I quote my longtime Usenet ally, Christopher Charles Morton.
http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=368972&page=12&p=4480009#post4480009
1 in 500 Americans has died of Covid. Compare that to the serious adverse events from vaccination.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
“Everyone needs to be protected as well as possible. This requires us to pitch in on each other’s behalf, not only for our own benefit.”
Should we force people to eat spinach, kale, oranges, and liver? Should we force them to go outside to get more sunshine and exercise? Co-morbidities like obesity and diabetes are driving quite a few of our problems.
Being physically healthy and eating well helps support the immune system so you are better protected. Be healthy on each other’s behalf, not only for your own benefit.
I was “Explaining why people who are eligible to be vaccinated should choose to be vaccinated even though the vaccine isn’t 100% effective.” Why are you turning this into a matter of “force”? Independent Bob, the person I was responding to, was not forced to be vaccinated. I wasn’t forced to be vaccinated. And yes, it would be good for people to be healthy on each other’s behalf, not only for their own benefit. But that’s a more complex discussion. It would include, for example, how the government subsidizes production of unhealthy foods.
I’m not the one turning it into a matter of force. Biden is with the coercive mandate for businesses with 100+ employees.
He is quite gotten himself too big for his britches.
“Biden is with the coercive mandate for businesses with 100+ employees.”
Have you actually read his plan?
It says “The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) is developing a rule that will require all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.”
Why do you consider that choice to be a “matter of force”? Do you also consider other OSHA regulations to be force?
It doesn’t take into account natural immunity. Besides, why force people to get vaccinated with a leaky vaccine? (Why force them at all?!) If someone wants to get the jab to try to reduce the severity of disease, fine. The vaccine doesn’t stop infection or transmission. Might as well test the vaccinated people, too. It will just add to the theater.
But it does not force people to be vaccinated: “… OR require any workers who remain unvaccinated to produce a negative test result on at least a weekly basis before coming to work.”
What do you mean by “leaky vaccine”?
” It would include, for example, how the government subsidizes production of unhealthy foods.”
I agree with you here. This is a terrible problem. Subsidies would have to be removed with some lead time expiration, though, because many farmers would probably have to consider revamping what they farm. Less corn and soy beans and more of other crops, I would think.
I’ve been tested 4 times in the past 18 months. All negative. We don’t live in a sterile pristine world. Now what, hide in my basement. I don’t think so.
Who is telling you to hide in your basement?
That would be next.
No vaccine is 100% effective.
I was vaccinated from polio back in the early 1980’s. While I theoretically could have caught polio afterwards and infected others, the odds were so miniscule that I never even considered taking any sort of extraordinary precautions to avoid being infected or infecting others. No one bothered to take any measures to protect me from someone unvaccinated from polio.
By the way, no bar or restaurant ever asked me if I was vaccinated from polio.
Masks don’t work and our first clue was catching all of the mask tyrants, Pelosi, Fauci, and the rest, with their masks off until they knew the cameras were coming on.
But there is stronger evidence. City Journal did an excellent review of studies and of CDC duplicity in ignoring studies that did not support its political [not scientific] narrative.
https://www.city-journal.org/do-masks-work-a-review-of-the-evidence
Masks work fine when used properly but therein lies the problem. I have been wearing surgical masks since medical school days, and we wore them for 30 mins to 60 mins tops, exited the surgical room or isolation room, tossed the old mask and got a new one, on top of face shields, latex gloves, gowns, for TB patients or other similar high contagious patients. Infection control is a meticulous process that is taught/learned formally. People on the street are not trained in these matters and many of us have seen the majority of Americans wearing masks haphazardly. These give a false sense of protection. I have had children come to clinic with soiled masks after having worn them for weeks. Then there are the many pathogens that live in our mouth, throat, etc. See:
The microbiome of the upper respiratory tract in health and disease
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-019-0703-z
Wearing a mask incorrectly for prolong period of time, will allow these microorganisms to travel to areas where they should not, which leads to systemic infections
Better to allow healthy people get the pathogen to build an immune response, both plasma B cells antibodies and memory T cells, and segregate the high risk patient like immunocompromised, cancer chemo patient, etc. As for the obese, the hypertensive, the Type II Diabetic, etc, vaccinate or if you refuse, hope your immune system is able to ward off the pathogen just like it does for influenza, common cold, strep infections, walking pneumonia, Herpes simplex virus, Hepatitis A virus, etc.
Most physicians are exhausted with the CDC, an agency that bears most of the blame under Biden for the politicizing of a virus which will always be with us under continuing mutating strains…just like the flu, etc
Estovir, great post.
Estorvir, I agree with independent Bob. Great post.
Estovir– Judging by much of the existing evidence the cloth masks that people put on are worthless. The common surgical masks pose little protection to the wearer but might help a little bit to protect others if an infected person is wearing one. N95 masks offer more protection and they are what my friends were wearing when preparing to treat H1N1 patients.
But, as you know, masks must be worn properly. Even N95 masks require fitting to a degree.
The problems come less from the theoretical capability of masks than from human behavior. Often I see people wearing surgical masks improperly, below the nose, on the chin, or with large gaps. The dangers that outweigh the benefits of those masks come from behavior. One can often see people adjusting their masks and that hand to face contact is in itself a factor in contracting the illness, as it is with many other pathogens. People should not be encouraged by devices to keep touching their faces.
You mentioned another thing. You wear a mask for a short period of treatment and then discard it. Ordinary people do not. They wear them far too long; long enough for them to become loaded with pathogens other than Covid.
The physical capabilities of masks are not enough to evaluate their benefits and risks. One must also consider inevitable human behavior in using them.
If Fauci were serious about reducing death rates he would stop going on about experimental vaccines that are injuring many people and start telling people to lose weight, a lot of it.
Obesity is a significant, controllable risk factor for Covid death and yet it isn’t discussed.
Obesity is a significant, controllable risk factor for Covid death and yet it isn’t discussed.
Bingo. Recall the insulting Cosmopolitan magazine cover with obese women slightly uncovered, laughing, celebrating them as “This is healthy”. Like pro-abortionists promoting abortions that kill Black babies disproportionately, Cosmo extolling obesity is reckless.
inflammatory conditions like obesity create opportunities for pathogens like influenza, SARS viruses and Respiratory Syncytial Virus (RSV) to lead to death. Subacute, Acute and Chronic inflammatory conditions entail a vigorous engagement of the immune system and create permeable circulatory vessels to respond to the offending condition. Obesity is an offending condition. Adipocytes (fat cells) are active in secreting chemicals (adipokines) that illicit a response from the immune system. Adipokines include Interleukin 6 (IL-6), IL-8, IL-10, tumor necrosis factor alpha or (TNF-α), Interferon gamma (IFNγ) and hundreds of others. All of these signal a war of sorts deep inside our bodies that are undetectable to modern diagnostic tests. Obesity, Type II diabetes, Hypertension, Atherosclerosis are all inflammatory states. Why? The immune system must react to whatever it senses as being a threat. High blood pressure, high glucose levels (or lack of glucose due to insulin insensitivity), and a torrent of chemicals secreted by adipocytes put the immune system in a hyper-vigilant state. It responds with flooding the body with its own anti-inflammatory or pro-inflammatory signals (cytokines), thus creating a hurricane of activity that none of us realize until it is too late. “Sniffles” are an example. These are a result of immune cells responding to agents like viruses, bacteria, pollen, dust, etc and with an increase permeability of capillaries in our nasal system. Capillaries dilate and their walls become permeable to allow immune cells to enter and exit freely to attack the offending agents.
Caveat: However, there is nothing the immune cells can do about high blood pressure in the cardiovascular system, blocked coronary arteries (atherosclerosis), excess fat on the body, nor can it eliminate the high glucose it senses in the blood body. No worries. The immune system is not a system of slackers. Like dogs that bark when they hear something that gives them concern, the immune cells will respond regardless.
Of course this is a complex message to convey to the general public, and the corporate news media could take the opportunity to educate. Alas, it is not interested. All they want to do is for their readers to click on links to generate revenue. Matt Taibbi has written extensively on this in his book “Hate Inc.”
I have been saying it on this forum for 2-3 years. Those who are not fit do not survive. Medical conditions (comorbidities) like I have explained lead to death in pandemics because they are already crippled by physiological and molecular processes that make them the perfect target. People should focus on their comorbidities like obesity so that when the “big one” comes, they are well poised to survive hostile conditions. Otherwise, no mask, no vaccine, no hand washing can replace a healthy body that is well designed to survive adverse scenarios, unless if has already been crippled via lifestyle choices.
See
Drucker D. J. (2021). Diabetes, obesity, metabolism, and SARS-CoV-2 infection: the end of the beginning. Cell metabolism, 33(3), 479–498. doi.org/10.1016/j.cmet.2021.01.016
Kany, S., Vollrath, J. T., & Relja, B. (2019). Cytokines in Inflammatory Disease. International journal of molecular sciences, 20(23), 6008. doi.org/10.3390/ijms20236008
“when the “big one” comes, they are well poised to survive hostile conditions.”
What are you thinking of? I am curious.
He means a big disease like Covid.
Young,
It was open-ended, so, it could mean another disease. However, “when the “big one” comes, they are well poised to survive hostile conditions” could refer to many other things under the “hostile conditions” umbrella.
Barack Obama, Joe Biden and James Clapper knew at least since 2013 if not earlier
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Intelligence%20Reports/2013%20ATA%20SFR%20for%20SSCI%2012%20Mar%202013.pdf
Statement for the Record
Worldwide Threat Assessment of the US Intelligence Community
Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
James R. Clapper
Director of National Intelligence
March 12, 2013
HEALTH and PANDEMIC THREATS
Scientists continue to discover previously unknown pathogens in humans that made the “jump” from animals – zoonotic diseases. Examples are: a prion disease in cattle that jumped in the 1980s to causevariant Creutzeldt-Jacob disease; a bat henipavirus that in 1999 became known as the human Nipah Virus; a bat corona virus that jumped to humans in 2002 to cause Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS); and another SARS-like corona virus recently identified in individuals who have been in Saudi Arabia, which might also have bat origins. Human and livestock population growth and encroachment into jungles increase human exposure to crossovers. No one can predict which pathogen will be the next to spread to humans, or when or where such a development will occur, but humans will continue to be vulnerable to pandemics, most of which will probably originate in animals.
….. but humans will continue to be vulnerable to pandemics, most of which will probably originate in animals.
We should all be living each day as fit, nourished, and in prime health as possible. We never know when life will become incredibly uncomfortable, challenging and downright dangerous. Being from the Caribbean and having lived through political upheaval and many hurricanes have taught me that electricity, gasoline, food, potable water, and adversarial conditions like looting, lack of security and pests like mosquitoes can become a reality in less than 48 hours.
Americans have become too complacent. I am repeating myself.
That’s why the Obama Admin. created a pandemic playbook (https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6819703/WH-Pandemic-Playbook.pdf) and gave it to the Trump Admin., along with running a pandemic exercise with the incoming Admin. before Trump was inaugurated.
Trump, Pence, and lots of others also knew it long before SARS-CoV-2 emerged.
Impending pandemics have been feared for many years.
World unprepared for pandemic, panel warns
https://www.dw.com/en/next-flu-pandemic-a-matter-of-when-not-if-says-who/a-47853367
March 11, 2019
The next pandemic could spread within 36 hours, disrupt economies and destabilize national security, WHO and World Bank experts have said. The panel said current efforts to manage a pandemic are “grossly insufficient.”
the following should make everyone pause.
Pandemic ‘Imminent’: WHO Raises Swine Flu Pandemic Alert Level to 5
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFlu/story?id=7456439
April 29, 2009
Despite calls from many U.S. lawmakers for tightening controls over the Mexico-US border, Obama ruled out that option, even though the swine flu outbreak has been at its most virulent and may have begun there. “We have been preparing all along as if this is going to be stage 6,” Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano said at a press conference this afternoon before the WHO announcement. “Our efforts have been to stay ahead of whatever number WHO assigns.” Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said at the same conference that the change in designation should not inspire undue worry. “Panicking is probably not very helpful,” she said. “What’s helpful is turning this concern and worry into action steps.”
We are going to have to learn how we are going to”live” with Covid. We can’t shut life or this country down.
Andrew Sullivan has written likewise wrt living with HIV. He made excellent points re: accepting the virus that is now part of his DNA genome, carrying on with life using health, nutrition and lifestyle behaviors that support his goal, and not be a victim. HIV-positive patients, both untreated and treated, die much sooner than HIV-negative patients. Not so with COVID. COVID is nothing compared to HIV which is why Sullivan’s story is so strong. But of course the Left attacked because thats all they have, insult, denigrate, disparage, the Saul Alinsky way.
https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/let-it-rip-f9c
Let It Rip
How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Live With The Virus
Andrew Sullivan
Jul 30
It sounds very much like a Business Law case study; shame he didn’t approach it from that angle.
Mr. Turley, you’re surprised that he made a strong speech about this? After everything that’s happened? The scapegoating of the unvaccinated and the willful violation of freedom of medical choice is morally wrong to the core. I understand the professor’s strong objections to what’s happening.
Another professor, in Canada, recently objected to the fact that it’s fundamentally wrong — really a human rights violation — for an employer to force people to take an experimental drug. She took a principled and commendable stand for basic human freedoms — which all persons of conscience should be doing at this time. Here is the statement by ethics professor, Julie Ponesse, who refused experimental vaccine on the grounds of freedom of medical choice, informed consent, and bodily autonomy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmsTpSQXIYI
It should be apparent to any sane, rational person, at this point, that we’re facing is actually the imposition of an authoritarian biosecurity state, a medical tyranny, imposed on us by degrees. Denial of what’s happening is due to fear among most and complicity among some. Many are caught in the boiling frog syndrome: not fully aware of the change until it’s too late.
A comparison with fascism is not unwarranted, if one excludes comparison to its final results — genocide — but includes comparison to the early stages of the totalitarianism being introduced to a population through a psychological operation reliant on disorientation and division, using scapegoating (psychological displacement), censorship, and scapegoating. It is designed to tear our society apart so that the authoritarians can then take over.
The model they’re striving after in this case is not Nazi Germany, but Communist China. The CCP, as it turns out, has been working behind the scenes, through asymmetrical warfare, to accomplish world domination, for years. They don’t even hide their ambitions. Look up the “United Front Work Department”; “The Unnatural Origin of SARS and New Species of Man-Made Viruses as Genetic Bioweapons”; and “Unrestricted Warfare, by Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui.” The pandemic is being used to accomplish that goal.
There are numerous holes in the narrative being imposed on us that undermine its credibility and reveal its nefarious intent. Those who tell us the emperor has no clothes are courageous because they often lose their jobs and are publicly shamed for doing so. But they know that speaking out is just losing one’s job. Later on, it will mean losing one’s life, once the authoritarians fully take over.
For example, a group of health professionals in British Columbia, Canada, recently stated: “Proclaiming that vaccine therapies are “safe and effective” is misleading and sloganistic. The reports of vaccine injuries are increasing every day, yet are being ignored. We are witnessing an increase in Covid illness occurring in fully vaccinated individuals and, irrationally, that is being followed by a promise of mandated boosters. The lack of answers and the vague information being provided over the past 18+ months do not instill confidence …
“This lack of transparency has resulted in unprecedented divisiveness amongst citizens, families and friends. There are individuals who are angry that some concerned citizens are not complying and are comparing our current circumstances to the Holocaust. While this may seem extreme, the Holocaust also began with the small removal of freedoms, just as we are seeing today. This historical atrocity started out as a slow and seemingly innocent removal of rights by the government but quickly morphed into media control, divisiveness between groups of people, and limitations to what one select section of society could do. In this way, the ordinary citizen easily became an enemy of the state.
“Today a one-sided, politically-driven narrative, which is being fuelled by politicians and the media, is causing a similar divisiveness. When only one side of the story is made available to the public, it is easy to understand how individuals can become disgruntled toward other citizens who are fighting to maintain their freedom and bodily autonomy. A political agenda is clearly being pushed here, and the refusal to address questions and concerns of healthcare practitioners and citizens … speaks volumes.
“You must recognize and acknowledge the problems our country faces with our media and with our supposed leaders. We are on a dangerous trajectory and we must STOP —NOW! The media’s control of information and the censorship of knowledgeable and experienced physicians, scientists, and lawyers are preventing access to the two sides of the story. The introduction of “Fact-checkers”—who are wholly owned by Big Tech, Big Pharma, and Big Media — being paid to censor anyone who does not support the government narrative. The tools of intimidation, coercion, and bribery are being used to divide our society, and all of this is happening right in front of us. Obviously, this type of behaviour is not a reflection of good people with good ideas; to the contrary, it is criminal activity.”
“Groups of doctors are forming international networks to investigate public health measures and to raise questions and concerns. We call on all Canadians to join the rapidly growing movement of ordinary citizens who are standing up against tyranny and violation of our human rights and freedoms!” The document asks several excellent questions, such as:
“Given 84.3% of all people who are said to have died with COVID-19 are age 70 and over, and 94% of all people who are said to have died with COVID-19 are age 60 and over, how do you justify applying public health restrictions on the rest of the population? …
“It is important to note that the inventor of the PCR test, Kary Mullis, stated many times that “PCR tests cannot be used to detect viruses”. It is now admitted that the PCR cannot tell the difference between a common cold, the flu, or any virus or variant. Also, the PCR cannot differentiate between live and dead matter meaning whether something is infectious or not …
“Why is the inflated Relative Risk Reduction (RRR) of 94.0% utilized in reporting of vaccine effectiveness instead of the Absolute Risk Reduction (ARR) of less than 1.0%? What information are you relying upon when you say vaccines prevent or reduce the risk of infection with covid-19?”
You can read the whole thing here: https://www.eastonspectator.com/2021/09/12/open-letter-to-dr-bonnie-henry-adrian-dix-and-premier-john-horgan/
Ask yourself: how can it be right to destroy people’s livelihoods and violate their inalienable rights for a disease with a 94 to 99% recovery rate (depending on age group), and then force people to take an experimental drug or lose their jobs and services?
How can it be right to compel healthy students who have a 99.97% recovery rate to take the jab and put them at risk of adverse events? Why are university students not protesting en masse? They seem to be brainwashed by Leftist ideology to accept this as the price for getting a country they think will be democratic socialist as promised by Bernie Sanders — but in fact, will be more like Communist China. In time, they’ll surely regret their complicity in this.
And how is it right to violate human rights and create a segregated society in which one group of it is scapegoated by imposing vaccine passports and mandates? How is right to suppress low-cost treatments that work in favour of expensive, experimental drugs that don’t provide immunity – drugs that give Big Pharma huge profits and state actors absolute power over us? How is it right to coerce another person to take a drug again their will?
Do we really want a society in which the following are the norm?
• Censorship (no freedom of speech, no academic freedom)
• Suspension of inalienable rights
• Statism and state media with only one approved message
• Scapegoating portions of the population (i.e., the unvaccinated, conservatives)
• Giving state-sanctioned ‘health’ apparatchiks absolute authority over our lives
• Creating lockdown deaths and ruining small businesses and countless lives in the process
We will never emerge from this as long as people continue to submit to it. We need to take a lesson from the Australians who recently went back to the beach in an act of massive civil disobedience. Giving in to the authoritarians is a slippery slope to more and more losses of freedom until nothing is left and we might as well be living in a Communist country. If we accept the loss of bodily autonomy, where does it end? I support the law professor’s stand. He was right to tell his students what’s happening in unequivocal terms, and they were foolish if they left class and refused to listen. They’ll later come to regret the loss of a free society they’re naively supporting.
Schools have had vaccination requirements for decades.
A smaller % of people who get measles die from it, but vaccination is still required. This is not a human rights violation.
Please cite the Constitution for any fashion of legal basis providing Congress the authority and power to compel vaccinations or any other form of healthcare.
In the absence of that citation, the Supreme Court has committed actionable dereliction, negligence, abuse of power, usurpation of power and quite possibly treason.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”
“…men…do…what their powers do not authorize, [and] what they forbid.”
“[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”
– Alexander Hamilton
“Schools have had vaccination requirements for decades.”
A school is not an institution of physical force. The government is.
Compelling an individual to undergo a medical procedure is not only a “human rights violation” — it’s barbaric.
Public schools are part of the government.
You’re free to consider public school vaccination requirements to be barbaric. I’m free to disagree with you. You are not forced to attend (or send your kids to) schools that require vaccination.
“Public schools are part of the government.”
Public or private, a school is not an institution of physical force. You seem to have a hard time grasping the distinction between government coercion (its police force) and voluntary choice.
For a person who habitually concocts phony distinctions, you have a remarkable ability to evade important distinctions — when it satisfies your desires. That is not thinking. That is rationalization (and intellectual dishonesty).
“You seem to have a hard time grasping the distinction between government coercion (its police force) and voluntary choice.”
No, I understand that distinction. But public schools NEITHER use police force coercion NOR allow voluntary choice when it comes to vaccinations, so any truthful and sufficiently precise discussion of the issue doesn’t pretend that those are the only two possibilities.
Public schools simply do not allow students to enroll if they are not vaccinated. I suppose the police might be called if an unvaccinated and unenrolled student tried to attend classes. Has that ever happened?
“For a person who habitually concocts phony distinctions …”
I don’t, though of course that doesn’t prevent you from believing otherwise.
“you have a remarkable ability to evade important distinctions”
I don’t do that either. I’m rejecting your false dichotomy between police force and voluntary choice. What term would you like to use for the kind of force public schools do use: refusing to allow unvaccinated student to attend?
When you say things like “A school is not an institution of physical force. The government is,” it simply isn’t accurate. A more accurate statement would be something like “A government school is not an institution of physical force. A government police department and army are.” If you said it that way, maybe you’d understand better that public schools are part of the government, and they’re not using physical force in insisting on vaccination.
If you choose not to get vaccinated, that’s your business. Charles Darwin, survival of the fittest. I got vaccinated.
The unvaccinated only have 99.99% survival odds!
They should go to Las Vegas.
This professor had a choice: be vaccinated or wear a mask. He wasn’t forced to be vaccinated. Unless one has a medical condition that makes it hard to breathe with a mask on, wearing a mask in public is not onerous.