The George Washington University (where I teach) has a new free speech controversy after the Student Association Senate unanimously passed a resolution calling on school officials to suspend the campus chapter of the Young America’s Foundation (YAF) for alleged four “transphobic” tweets.
According to The Hatchet, the SAS approved the “No Place for Hate Act” declaring a series of YAF tweets to be “hateful” and demanding a response from the university.
There are four tweets posted from a three-day period:
“…On April 20, 2022, at 5:57 pm, GW Young America’s Foundation Tweeted from their official Twitter account “oh the pro-pedo libs are gonna LOVE this one” as a quote Tweet of the official Young America’s Foundation Twitter account;
…On April 21, 2022, at 4:52 pm, GW Young America’s Foundation Tweeted “we aren’t the ones advocating for the grooming and sexualization of children…” in response to a Tweet calling them disgusting;
…On April 22, 2022, at 10:21 am, GW Young America’s Foundation Tweeted “AGREE OR GET CANCELLED: @benshapiro explains how trans ‘rights’ are an attack on free speech.”;
…On April 22, 2022, at 3:56 pm, GW Young America’s Foundation Tweeted “The statement that pedophiles shouldn’t be teaching in schools should not be controversial, it’s common sense.”
Among the relief demands is the suspension of the group and for the Office of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion to “conduct trainings” with the conservative group to ensure it “understand[s] why [its] statements were wrong.”
YAF deleted the first tweet and said that the word pedophile should not have been used and “did not represent the entire organization’s views.” It further said that it “was not meant to refer to transgender people as pedophiles, only people who support implementing education about gender and sexuality in elementary schools.”
There are clear justification in other students objecting to the tweet. However, the organization told The Hatchet that
“a YAF e-board member posted the tweet without “any pre-approval,” and that the member is no longer part of the organization. Moving forward, we will closely scrutinize our social media posts to ensure that they are in-line with the executive board’s views as a whole.”
While some have said that this statement does not expressly offer an apology, it is clear that the group has disassociated itself from the statement made by someone who is no longer with the group.
The question is whether this and the other tweets justify a suspension of a group and mandatory training.
The second tweet was reportedly in response to a member of GW Reproductive Autonomy and Gender Equity calling YAF “disgusting.” It reflected a view of some conservatives that early exposure of children (particularly from kindergarten to third grade) constitutes “grooming and sexualization.” That is a roaring debate on and off campus, particularly in light of the recent Florida parental rights law. While many understandably view the statement to be insulting and inaccurate, it is a political viewpoint supported not only by these students but various politicians and pundits. It should be treated as protected speech on campus.
The third tweet stated “AGREE OR GET CANCELLED: @benshapiro explains how trans ‘rights’ are an attack on free speech.” Again, many students have a legitimate right to denounce that statement as insulting and inaccurate. However, it is a political statement that captures not only the views of Shapiro but the view of many conservatives. It should also be treated as protected speech on campus.
The fourth tweet, again, uses the term “pedophiles” that many understandably find insulting. It is not clear what this statement is referencing from the resolution. However, the labeling of others in this debate as pedophiles is irresponsible, offensive, and wrong. The group itself publicly stated that the word “pedophile” should not have been used in the discussion.
The resolution maintains that action is required from the university “to improve safety for the LGBTQ+ Community.”
There is ample basis for condemnation of the use of this label in tweets. Trans individuals have long faced this prejudicial, harmful, and demeaning label in society. They are often portrayed as threats to children due to their identity. We should all stand in opposition to such characterizations and be cognizant of how such labels impact members of our community.
However, the suspension of the group (which only received $186 from the university according to the Hatchet) would come at a high cost for free speech. I have seen other groups at GW engage in insulting and reckless characterizations. That includes calling Republicans fascists, racists, and other terms. Likewise, pro-life advocates are often denounced as being anti-feminist or misogynistic.
As forums of free speech, universities encourage students to participate in political causes and engage in debates over contemporary issues. In so doing, schools strive not to regulate such speech out of concern for free speech values. That can be difficult when passionate debate leads to reckless or offensive comments. Such intervention can create a slippery slope of regulation where the university is called upon to address a myriad of offensive or insulting characterizations in political debates.
In this case, YAF was legitimately called out for the use of pedophile in these exchanges on Twitter. The groups deleted one tweet and said that the term should not be used as part of the debate. If the university goes further, it will need to establish not just a bright-line rule on how it will be responding to such insults but also address the failure to do so with other groups.
The concern over consistent and uniform treatment of speech is long-standing on campuses. In past postings, I have defended faculty who have made an array of disturbing comments about “detonating white people,” denouncing police, calling for Republicans to suffer, strangling police officers, celebrating the death of conservatives, calling for the killing of Trump supporters, supporting the murder of conservative protesters and other outrageous statements. I also supported the free speech rights of University of Rhode Island professor Erik Loomis, who defended the murder of a conservative protester and said that he saw “nothing wrong” with such acts of violence.
Even when faculty engage in hateful acts on campus, however, there is a notable difference in how universities respond depending on the viewpoint. At the University of California campus, professors actually rallied around a professor who physically assaulted pro-life advocates and tore down their display. We also previously discussed the case of Fresno State University Public Health Professor Dr. Gregory Thatcher who recruited students to destroy pro-life messages written on the sidewalks and wrongly told the pro-life students that they had no free speech rights in the matter.
In all of these controversies, my natural default is in favor of free speech despite the offensive content of the statements. I have the same inclination in this controversy. The group has pledged to more closely monitor tweets using the group account and to avoid the use of the term “pedophile” in the debate. The students were correct in calling out YAF for the tweets, but a suspension would raise troubling free speech implications for the university, particularly after the recent censorship of a group criticizing the Chinese government.
This is an important debate for our community and legitimately caused this group to review and revise its approach to social media commentary. The resolution, however, fails to consider the countervailing dangers to free speech raised by the controversy. A suspension of the group would undermine free speech rights on campus.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ….. don’t suppress my right to call it a duck.
I may be wrong, but I have the right to be wrong.
This is a serious Q. How can Turley defend faculty calling for murder of people based on their skin color and/or favoring the wrong political ideology while he simultaneously favors censoring students for using the word “pedophile?”
Professor Turley Writes:
“While many understandably view the statement to be insulting and inaccurate, it is a political viewpoint supported not only by these students but various politicians and pundits. It should be treated as protected speech on campus”.
……………………………………………
Currently America is awash with fringe political beliefs. Therefore to argue that viewpoints supported by “various politicians and pundits” should be “protected speech” is ludicrous!
A ‘politician’ could be a state senator from South Dakota or an alderman from Chicago’s South Side. Regional office-holders make crazy statements every day! So just because some ‘politician’ utters something crazy shouldn’t make it ‘protected free speech’.
The meaning of ‘pundit’ is also vague. A pundit could be a columnist for an obscure online paper. Alex Jones is a ‘pundit to millions of followers. Tucker Carlson thinks White men should be tanning their testicles. The point is that anyone posting in a public forum can call themselves a ‘pundit’.
With this column Professor Turley has gone completely QAnon. And Turley is essentially demanding that mainstream America respect QAnon views. Thank God I live in California where is QAnon is still nuts.
“Tucker Carlson thinks White men should be tanning their testicles.”
That is a lie. Anonymous can’t help himself.
That must have been Anonymous the Stupid who made such an ignorant and obviously false comment.
“Professor Turley has gone completely QAnon.”
And with that oft-repeated slur, the Left continues its disgraceful smear campaign against Turley. A campaign that just happens to coincide with the Left’s desire to establish government censorship in America. I wonder what their motivation could be.
Actually Professor Turley would demand ‘mainstream’ America respect the rights of QAnon (and all other Americans) to have their own views and also their right to express those views. And he would also agree with your right to disagree with those views and express your opposition to those views, but not allow you to restrict anyone’s right to their own views or their freedom to express them.
Taking the 30,000 foot view of Natacha’s Indiana case for just a moment, if there are roughly 200 countries on planet Earth today, how many of them are at least somewhat ‘open’ to the reality of trans-genderism? How many are completely open to it, how many are like the USA which is becoming more and more open to it, and how many countries have policies that crush it, stamp it out, punish those who claim they were born in the wrong body? I do not have an answer – but this Mother’s son who became a daughter will be quite well accepted in certain societal circles and geographic areas as she matures and enters adulthood. America has reached at least that point in its evolution.
Those who demand change often expect immediate results when societies don’t move at warp speed, governmental policies don’t either. No one is patient anymore.
These clown show communists call the Founders and Framers “conservatives” and their words “offensive.”
Their goal is to “fundamentally transform the United States of America” into a communist gulag and to enslave actual Americans.
These communists and their leader of the Coup D’etat in America are direct and mortal enemies of the Constitution and of America.
“Their goal is to “fundamentally transform the United States of America” into a communist gulag and to enslave actual Americans.”
Go ahead and tell us, George. What groups in your mind aren’t “actual Americans.” They know already, you can say it out loud.
For George, only white men with property are “actual Americans.” He might occasionally include white women, but only as breeding stock.
I know, I just wanted to hear him say it. And most everyone else here ignore him saying so.
Anincompoop:
That you infer maliciousness to George when his words don’t support it tells us everything about you and almost nothing about George. But that’s typical anytime anyone delves into that pea soup of a mind you show here. George clearly spelled out who he meant, you and enigma can’t seem to read.
Why are you so scared? Are you trying to find those elusive “Racist”, you have heard so much about? No one like a commie, for commies are more dangerous than racists.
” No one like a commie, for commies are more dangerous than racists.”
I suppose that depends on who you are? “Commies” have been far more supportive of Black people in America than “racists” (a term that includes all those who know better but do nothing). Commies publicly supported the Scottsboro Boys when racists wanted to hang them. Sure they had reasons of their own, but your belief commies are more dangerous than racists shows how little you know about racists. (BTW, I really hope this isn’t Allan because you would have sunk even lower in my opinion).
Enigma, I wonder if you can educate us about those black communists that ran African nations. Were they more supportive of black people?
You knew that you were responding to someone other than Allan or S. Meyer. Your doubt was purely dramatic, and your understanding of the words commie and racist is limited. I think you need to freshen your knowledge up a bit. It would help if you geared yourself to make things better, not worse.
When anyone posts as Someone, I don’t always know whether it’s you? Sometimes it’s clear by the tone or point of view. Others not so much. The post I was responding to didn’t by any means eliminate you as a possibility.
You’ll have to be specific about which African nations and leaders you mean? Were any of them worse than some of the racists that led America? I don’t think so, and I’m talking about our Founders.
Enigma, so far, when you ask and I see your request, I let you know it is me. You can consider me colorblind and one that believes in individual rights and freedoms for the ordinary citizen. If the comment is racist, it isn’t me. If the comment is directed against one who is intentionally dividing people by race, there is a high likelihood it is me. If it has to do with educating less affluent minorities and giving them a chance through their effort and a helping hand, it is a good chance it is me.
If you take all those things into account, it will be difficult for us to bang heads.
Right off the bat, Turley starts his spin. The title of today’s little piece of excrement is intentionally misleading–it says a “conservative group” is being subjected to censorship. Turley, you and I both know that calling people who say the sorts of things you reported is just part of the Fox effort to normalize the ultra-right wing culture wars that Republicans think will gain them power. REAL conservatives don’t go around claiming that there are “pro-pedo libs”, because people who are liberals oppose pedophilia. Associating pedophilia with liberalism is intentionally deceitful. Nor do real conservatives claim that Democrats participate in the “grooming and sexualization of children”, and they don’t complain that “pedophiles” are teaching in schools or anything about “trans rights”. You and I both know this is Q-Anon rhetoric, calculated to hook evangelicals who are apparently unsophisticated enough that they don’t know that transsexuals are not child molesters. And, Turley, you are an active, willing participant in spreading this misinformation. Q-Anon capitalizes on the ignorance around transsexualism. So, is there some “right” to spread lies demeaning an entire group of people as criminals, based on their sexuality?
It’s just like Turley’s laughable efforts to complain about Democrats engaging in “censorship”. You know damn good and well, Turley, that it’s the REPUBLICANS who are: 1. banning books, including even math books because they claim they support CRT; 2. in Florida, punishing the Disney Company for opposing DeSantis’s “don’t say gay” law; 3. forcing doctors to lie to pregnant women seeking abortion care about the developmental stage of the fetus, or “advising” them of negative outcomes, all contrary to science; 4. disallowing what Republicans unilaterally call “CRT” from being taught in schools, even though it isn’t being taught in schools.
Natacha – 1) those math books do use CRT 2) the word “gay” or ” straight” is not in the bill 3) no one is forcing doctors to lie to people about abortion care and there are negative outcomes for some women 4 ) CRT regardless of what you call it, is being taught in schools.
Paul,
Let’s start with your first claim. I dare you to link to a single problem in a public school math book that you believe “uses CRT,” and explain how it is “using CRT.”
Paul, you have experience as a teacher. Anonymous the Stupid is trying to play definitional games. Here is the curriculum from K-3 at Evanston.
Instead of teaching math and reading skills, they teach what DeSantis forbid in Florida.
Be prepared. It is 277 pages.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21694116-evanston-prek-3rd?responsive=1&title=1&mc_cid=d38ae03611&mc_eid=4ac790b60f
S. Meyer – I had to get to pg 113 to get to the lesson plan on transgenders for preK-3. I am envious. I had to do my own lesson plans, slides, etc. Evanston does it all including a script. A trained monkey can teach those classes. BTW, p. 113 was after Pride Week, which went into too much detail for me.
It would be easier to accept that those on the left were not promoting pedophilia – if they did not go on TikTok and prove that false.
Teaching 4yr olds how to masterbate is pedophilia.
Childhood is a often wonderful time, kids believe in magic, and dragons, they think they can fly, they beleive the impossible and are infinitely suggestible. They are far from being logical or any concept of facts, logic, reason.
Pedophilia is a crime specifically because it is incredibly easy to take advantage of children. While it slowly gets harder over time – most of us has not reached our peak cognative development before 35, the law still finds those under 10 sufficiently disconnected from facts, logic and reason that we do not allow them to testify in court and we do not charge them with crimes.
If you do not want those on the right making preposterous claims – do not make them True.
Do not tell children that they can change their sex in a closet – because they believe you and they believe in magic.
Regardless, abusing the trust of children to advance adult political goals is absolutely revolting.
No one is banning books – DeSantis has not taken down Amazon.
You have sided with nut job left wing nuts over what is appropriate to teach children.
Using children to advance adult political and sexual agenda’s is disgusting.
Absolutely the scope of what is provided to children in public schools is being limited.
That is not new. It is not possible for public education to teach children all sides of everything.
Choices must be made.
Parents are free to indoctrinate their own children as they please – though that often does not work out well.
Teachers and the state ARE NOT.
The charter for public schools is the fundimentals of education – first reading, writing and arithmetic.
2+2=4 – not 2+2=5.
When the basics of that have been accheived – the basics of science, and the basics of history can be added.
Public schools are never the approriate places for nonsense like CRT or bogus history.
If private college wish to indulge in nonsense like CRT – that is their business and my children had better not expect me to help pay for an education in nonsense like CRT.
The slightest understanding of real history debunks CRT trivially.
For centuries the british oppressed the scotch and irish – not Blacks. There were less than 15,000 blacks in England in 1800.
The foundations of western law and government date back to long before the first slaves – in fact there were NEVER any slaves in england.
The entire concept of racial oppression is a historical nonsense. For most of human history people oppressed their neighbors. Few had the ability to travel 25 miles much less half way accross the world. Slavery existed since the dawn of humanity, enslavement by race did not exist until man had the ability to transport slaves thousands of miles. Even then – black slaves were nearly entirely enslaved by other blacks, it was not until the 19th century that whites were able to survive in Africa for more than a year.
The core of CRT is nonsense concocted by people unfamiliar would world history, and incapable of logic and reason.
Any university should be ashamed to teach such nonsense to students.
It is completely appropriate for Public schools to refuse to waste time on such idiocy.
We send kids to public school so they can manage on their own as adults.
The FL law forbids teachers from teaching about sex prior to the age of 9.
Straight Sex, Gay sex, transexual.
Most of us do not want blue haired preschool teachers teaching our kids how to masterbate.
If CRT is not being taught in schools – you should not be so virulent opposing baring it.
Regardless – you seemed to have missed what happened in VA and accross the country – parents – primarily women, most often minorities, are vigorously opposed to the ACTUAL curriculum they have found teachers pushing in their schools.
The left’s efforts to shutdown schools BACKFIRED spectacularly.
It required parents to be more heavily involved in the education of their kids, and they did not like what they found.
It does not matter whther you call it CRT or not – it was vile and racist and parents did not like it.
And then you were stupid enough to demonize them as domestic terroists for standing up to schools.
This mess is of the lefts making.
You do not seem to grasp that people will allow all kinds of idiocy to be foist on them to avoid being called racist.
But everything changes when you try that with their kids.
Let’s make it easier. Let’s remove all teaching by the left.
Trans/homosexual males did lead the male pedophile rings in schools, recreation, Boy Scouts, etc. Liberals lead the normalization of the wicked solution: reproductive rites. Progressives lead the charge for politically congruent (“=”) diversity [dogma] (e.g. racism, sexism), inequity, and exclusion (DIE).
Transsexualsim and homosexualism have nothing whatsoever to do with child molesting, which is a crime. Most child molesters are straight, and often related to the victim. Associating homosexuals and transsexuals with pedophilia is wrong scientifically, morally and legally, but part of the Q-Anon pandering to hook voters.
You are correct – to a point.
It is quite common for actual pedophiles to present as transsexuals if that gains them access to children.
Simple rule – no one with a penis in the women’s and girls restroom.
Don’t care what you call yourself. If you are an adult who has had your penis removed – you are free to use the women’s restroom.
I do not think that is correct
It is however correct that Pedophiles can be crafty and will exploit any allowances and options available to them.
Scouting was not created with the intention of creating a hunting ground for pedophiles – but whatever the intentions – that is what occured.
we are already seeing pedophiles taking advantage of identifying as Trans to gain access to children and girls.
We are even seeing rapists in prison identify as trans to get into womens prisons – where there is a near infinite supply of victims.
We do not need to intend a specific result to get it.
The understanding that even changes made with good motives and often good first order effects can have brutally bad 2nd and third order effects is the fundamental thesis of conservatism.
Better the devil you know than the one you do not.
Good intentions are NOT enough, Changes that are on net good are rare and extremely difficult.
I do have one question: Who is it that is displaying a phobia here?
I would argue that those who are attacking YAF for their statements from their group account are the ones displaying phobias here, unless they actually believe that they have an unreasonable fear for their lives from these statements. It is obviously not the statements of the YAF that display any type of phobia.
So the world needs to get out of this cycle of attaching the word “phobia” to any type of statements that may be hateful, since it is obvious the ones making the initial statements in these cases are not suffering from any type of phobia. They may be suffering from hate, but that certainly isn’t fear.
“SAS approved the “No Place for Hate Act” declaring a series of YAF tweets to be “hateful” and demanding a response from the university.”
So SAS announces that it hates the YAF “hateful” tweets.
Does that mean that it is guilty of “hate” speech?
I know; I know. Clear definitions and consistency are not their strong suits.
Turley said:
“the labeling of others in this debate as pedophiles is irresponsible, offensive, and wrong. The group itself publicly stated that the word “pedophile” should not have been used in the discussion.”
……..
“There is ample basis for condemnation of the use of this label in tweets. Trans individuals have long faced this prejudicial, harmful, and demeaning label in society. They are often portrayed as threats to children due to their identity. We should all stand in opposition to such characterizations and be cognizant of how such labels impact members of our community.”
—————
From my reading of the commentary of our so-called “blog family,” it would seem that ONLY Enigmainblackcom, Concerned Citizen and one Anonymous have indicated that they agree with Turley’s statements above.
The rest of you do NOT.
JeffSilberman, I agree that terms such as Pedophile, Nazi and Fascism should not be thrown around lightly. However, this doesn’t mean that some activities shouldn’t be discussed and evaluated when being presented to young children. I offer an example. https://www.dragqueenstoryhour.org/. A child can be touched inappropriately not just on their bodies but also on their brains.
TiT,
As an academic, Turley is very careful in choosing his words. If this country was made up with people like Turley, these derogatory terms would not be thrown around so recklessly. It’s a great pity that his circumspection does not rub-off on the vast majority of those who follow him.
With just a handful of exceptions, it is evident that none of the Trumpists posting here share Turley’s heartfelt belief that “Trans individuals have long faced this prejudicial, harmful, and demeaning label in society. They are often portrayed as threats to children due to their identity. We should all stand in opposition to such characterizations and be cognizant of how such labels impact members of our community.”
Turley’s passionate plea to stand in opposition to calling people “pedophiles” is falling on deaf ears.
The accurate tweet would have been that “trans people” are suffering from a mental disorder and likely to migrate to their birth gender over time and after treatment. That they often commit suicide or have other bad outcomes seems more than the snowflakes at GW can handle. My guess is the libs would blame in on the YAF for “bullying” if they’d even admit it. GW will probably shut the YAF down because it’s the hip Maoist thing to do. No matter. Higher education is becoming increasingly irrelevant and of course, patently absurd. The YAF membership should transfer en masse to HIllsdale College and leave the liberal cesspool they find themselves in. No need trying to reform Hell. Many have tried and failed. Leave the devil to his own devices.
I truly don’t understand how or why people who know absolutely nothing other than what they hear on Fox, and why they passionately believe the lies they have been fed to the extent of arguing about such matters of which they really know nothing.
I follow cases involving transgender issues for my own edification. Below is an excerpt from an Indiana case, decided today, of which the issue was whether Indiana law allowed the parents of a transgender girl to petition to have her gender marker changed.
The mother’s testimony:
“She, one hundred percent, to her core, is female. It’s who she is.
I don’t understand it. I don’t understand the physiological side
of it. I don’t understand the medical side of it. I’m learning so
much through her and working with doctors and what … we
need to do to support her. But she is confident in who she is.
She doesn’t feel bad when she steps out. She doesn’t, like I said,
she doesn’t understand that people think transgender is negative.
She kind of sees herself as a unicorn. She’s amazing and
something different and that’s just how she was born. That’s
who she is.”
Transcript at 18. Mother noted instances in which Child had been “outed” in
Girl Scouts, which “devastated” Child, and while in waiting rooms for
medical/dental appointments. Id. at 14. Additionally, without the requested
Court of Appeals of Indiana | Opinion 21A-MI-2096 | May 2, 2022 Page 6 of 37
gender marker change, Mother indicated that the school intended to exclude
Child from using the girls’ locker room, which she believed would negatively
impact Child’s social engagement with peers and her self-esteem. Mother
testified that Child wants the gender marker on her birth certificate changed
“[m]ore than anything” and asks about it often. Id. at 19.
[10] Among the letters submitted to the court was one from Dr. Donahue, noting
her diagnosis of Child with gender dysphoria and expressing support for the
family’s request to legally change Child’s gender marker. Dr. Donahue
explained:
Existing research demonstrates that transgender youth whose
gender is affirmed through developmentally appropriate social
(e.g., name or gender marker change) and/or medical
interventions show more positive mental health outcomes.
When transgender youth desire these interventions but cannot
access them, they are [at] greater risk for negative mental health
outcomes, including suicide. While [Child] has the full support
of her family, her legal gender marker of “male” has created
difficulties for her and distress in certain school situations and in
medical settings. I believe the family’s request to legally change
[Child’s] gender marker to “female” is in the best interest of the
child at this time and will likely serve to protect her from
additional future harm.”
The opinion noted that the child was forced by her school to use the boy’s bathroom until she was accosted by older boys who insulted and abused her. She therefore avoided using the bathroom at all during school, which resulted in soiling accidents. One time, when she was outed in front of other students, she had a wetting accident. Eventually, the school allowed her to use a private bathroom to keep other students from harassing and abusing her. Her mother also testified that from the time her daughter could talk, she said she was a “girl inside”.
So Mespo, another “know it all” when it comes to transgenders committing suicide it’s NOT because they are weird or crazy: it’s because of the abuse they suffer at the hands of morons like you and Karen S. who don’t understand and who don’t want to understand their situation and don’t care how your ignorance and hate is damaging to someone who is transsexual and just trying to be who they are. And, BTW, no shocker here, ruby-red Indiana refused to allow the gender change.
A someone familiar with actuarial science, birth gender has a direct impact on life insurance premiums, and retirement annuity payments. When a woman retires, her monthly payments will invariably be less dollars, due to her actuarial longer life expectancy than a man of the exact same age. Her monthly insurance premiums for individual life insurance will also be different from a man of the same age, although their individual health will factor into the premiums whereas retirement plan pay-outs do not take health into account.
You might be wondering how this is relevant —- I have dealt with Life Insurance Companies since the early 1990’s on how and when to adjust insurance premiums and annuity payouts for transgender persons. There is a protocol for handling it, and it’s been around for 30 years.
But changing the gender marker on an official document created at the birth of a person was not part of the protocol, and to my knowledge, still is not. No court in this country wants to engage in such a precedent-setting ruling, allowing it.
So my suggestion to this Indiana mom is to hire a very good document specialist to get a copy of the original birth certificate and change the M to an F.
Voila — problem fixed.
Who’s going to check?
And what would be the ‘punishment?’
No one and none in both cases.
Thank you for listening, and I wish the child the best in their future life.
Falsifying official state records is a felony. I don’t know whether anyone would check, but it wouldn’t shock me if they did because ignorance about transsexualism is rampant. There is more to this case than what I reported, including the first trial judge substituting his opinion for that of licensed physicians and psychologists, but at the end of the day, the child knows who she is and shouldn’t have to suffer for it. The mother herself said she didn’t understand it medically or psychologically–why her child, born with male equipment, knows that she is really female, but despite not understanding it, she believes her daughter is being sincere. At the end of the day, why is this anyone’s business other than the person and her family?
All good questions, and we’re only discussing it here because someone made a decision to bring it to a court – I am not expressing an opinion over whether going to court or not was the most prudent next step, but Mom’s legal counsel might should and perhaps did explain the chances of getting any Judge to create a precedent-setting affirmative ruling to Mom’s request for a gender marker change were just about None — no where in the federal state or local laws is there an ordinance which says changing the gender marker on an original birth certificate is permitted as long as the requester feels like a different sex/gender than that at birth, which is the specific event causing the issuance of a certificate of birth.
Perhaps 10 or 20 years from now, this kind of question will be adjudicated in the highest court in the land, perhaps earlier, or perhaps never.
If you think children know who they are – you have never been a parent.
That is laughably stupid.
I am a 63yr old very happy man because my mother stopped me from doing several stupid things as a child that I was sure were right and reflected who I really was.
The core to parenting is allowing children to make stupid choices – WHEN THERE ARE NO PERMANENT CONSEQUENCES.
And stopping them from making stupid choices – when there are permanent consequences.
Finally in Natacha’s long story the truth comes out. She tells us that from the time the child could first talk he said he was a girl. What level of cognitive ability do we find in a fifteen month old child. https://theconversation.com/when-should-my-child-start-speaking-122579. So at fifteen months mommy heard her son say that he was a girl when he was still to young to ask for a cookie. Maybe at fifteen months it was a good time to start telling him he was a girl.
So, you, TIT, know more than the mother does, and are, indirectly, calling her a liar? Do you think any mother would intentionally lie about something like this? Another point in this case is that all of the judges, trial and appellate, marveled at how much this girl was loved and supported by her family who didn’t understand transsexualism, but whose love for the child overcame their lack of understanding.
The circumstances in which I am prepared to allow government to interfere with parents rights to raise their children are almost non-existant.
That does not however mean that I think all parents know their children or are good parents – only that government nearly always does WORSE than bad parents.
We do not have a perfect world – we have plenty of bad parents.
“So Mespo, another “know it all” when it comes to transgenders committing suicide it’s NOT because they are weird or crazy: it’s because of the abuse they suffer at the hands of morons like you and Karen S. who don’t understand and who don’t want to understand their situation and don’t care how your ignorance and hate is damaging to someone who is transsexual and just trying to be who they are. And, BTW, no shocker here, ruby-red Indiana refused to allow the gender change.”
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Of course, its society’s fault. It always is — to Maoists. It’s how you justify destroying society. Society, bad; mental illness, good. Truth is transgenders are disturbed people no matter what their “mom” says and enabling the delusion harms the patient. The trannies are perfect mascots for the Left since they, like most of the Lefties, can’t stand themselves either. It’s a Bird of a Feather situation. Here’s the important facts on trannies:
1. .03% of the adult pop says they’re transgender
2. Forty-one percent of transgender people surveyed said they had attempted suicide, compared with 1.6 percent of the general population.
3. The DSM list gender dysphoria as a mental consition which come trannies suffer from.
This is a fringe group with serious problems being elevated to empower the Left and give them a cudgel to berate the rest of us. Sorry no sale here.
First of all, what stake do you have in the life of this child or any other transsexual who wants to change their gender marker? How is allowing someone to live the life they were born into constitute a “cudgel to berate the rest of us”, unless, somehow, this is some of your business? You have no stake in her life just because you are ignorant and think you know more than the girl does about who she is and how she should live. And, as a matter of fact, this same sort of rhetoric used to be used against homosexuals, but since so many talented and successful people have come out, we don’t see as much of that ignoramus hate spewing forth like it was years ago. Most people know at least one homosexual. And, how is supporting someone who is transsexual “empowering the Left?? Live and let live. Given the depth of your ignorance and the nonstop prejudice that is fostered by the alt-right to hook ignorant people like you, it’s no wonder that transsexuals attempt suicide. You cite statistics as some pathetic effort to prove that transsexuals are either immoral or born damaged. You don’t take into account the effect of living in a world with prejudiced stupid people like you.
Nutacha – what in gods name are you talking about ?
The human “gender marker” is the paid of sex chromosomes that are either XX or XY in the case of 99.999% of us.
They can not be changed – that is just a fact.
Next, you state you are talking about a child – by definition that is someone not legally allowed to make significant decisions for themselves.
If you do not like that – lower the age of majority – see how well that works.
If an adult wishes to change their pronouns, their name, their attire, or undergo plastic surgery – that is all their free choice – so long as their choice imposes no duty on others.
I might in order to avoid conflict call you what you want me to – if I can remember it. But it is no moral offense if I do not.
It is no moral offense if I refuse to accept what you demand I accept.
Just as adults are free to do as they please to themselves, They are also free to not go along with the changes other adults have made.
I am not required to Call your car a Toyota if it is a Chevy.
You say that people are being denied living the life they were born into ?
Can you prove that ?
Regardless you are undermining your own argument – something can not be both a choice we must respect and the life they were born into.
I do not care who adults wish to have consensual sex with or how they dress when they do so.
If nothing else the internet has made all of us aware that there are a near infinite number of sexual predilections that cause no harm to others.
But you are not discussing adults, and you are not discussing situations that have no harm to others.
There is little evidence that transexuals – whether that is a choice or they are born that way, are more harmful than straight people
But there is abundant evidence that Pedophiles and rapists will pretend to be MTF transexuals to gan access to children and or rape people.
If you have a penis – you do not belong in the women’s restroom – simple test.
We are already solving MOST of the restroom problem – structurally. Increasingly stores and other places of public accomidation are providing unsexed family restrooms, or multiple single facility unisex restrooms.
Todate I have not heard of a solution for high school lockers, but who knows given time we may.
In the meantime – no penis’s in the women’s and girls rooms – pretty simple. I suspect that I can find quotes from Andrea Dworking or Cathrine McKinnon to support that.
And leave the decisions of children to their parents – as we do in all other matters.
John B. Say —- Wrong again:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/10/its-intersex-awareness-day-here-are-5-myths-we-need-to-shatter/
Benson:
Your own article argued against sex reassignment surgery:
“Myth 3: Being intersex is a condition that needs to be corrected
Many intersex children undergo surgery in an effort to ‘normalise’ them – even though these interventions are often invasive, irreversible, and not performed for emergency reasons.
Although doctors and parents may be well meaning, the reality is that the procedures performed on intersex children can cause major problems, including infertility, pain, incontinence and lifelong psychological suffering. All this just to make children conform to society’s idea of what a girl or a boy ‘should’ look like.
Research by Amnesty International has highlighted how this constitutes a human rights violation. These interventions are often performed on children who are too young to meaningfully participate in decisions about their own bodies, and their parents are often not properly informed about the potential risks.
States have a duty to combat harmful stereotypes about gender and diversity – instead, many choose to subject children to needless operations just to make them “fit”.”
It is also of note that the definition of intersex has been expanded. Intersex was a chromosomal abnormality, such as XXY. By expanding it to include hormonal irregularities, the author can claim that intersex is not that rare.
David,
Karen is right. It appears you have not read your own article. I think you sometimes harvest citations by title or hasty scans without being aware that the articles themselves upend your argument, as in this case.
Young that happens with Anonymous the Stupid all the time.
I picked up your book on Darrow. It is interesting and the history something worthwhile to think about. The only problem is too many names.
The suicide rate for transexuals is unchanged after transitioning.
Transsexuals very strongly correlate to people with anxiety and depression.
They are looking for answers in their bodies when they answer is in their minds.
They are free – as all the rest of us to expect that a pill or surgery or a change of attire will fix everything, but it rarely does.
Natacha, you claim the mother loves this child. Let’s assume she does, and that this was not Munchausen by Proxy. She’s stated she doesn’t really know much about transgenderism, and is learning through having a transgender daughter. Does she know most children grow out of this, so she shouldn’t commit her child to anything permanent? Does she know the health risks of puberty blockers?
It is indisputable that most children who identify as suffering gender dysphoria outgrow it by age 18, as long as they do not start puberty blockers. That is pivotal. The end result of a male child suffering gender dysphoria, who receives affirming care, no questions asked, is chemical sterilization and surgical castration. In effect, the process quite literally produces a modern eunuch. There have been eunuch crazes before, from the Muslim slave trade that castrated millions of European and African slaves, to the Castratti of Italian Opera, and the Hijra of India.
There are lots of euphemisms, PR, and positive rhetoric surrounding transgenderism. The reality is that affirming a child with transgenderism puts them on a path to castration, and an extremely high risk of suicide after surgery. Automatic affirmation should never be the first response, as the end result is dire. Every attempt should be made to help the child become comfortable with their own biology. In most cases, no parent, school, caregiver, or doctor should make permanent, life changing decisions for that child, such as sterilization. A child’s brain is immature, highly susceptible to peer pressure, wired to respond to positive reinforcement. They cannot conceive of what castration or sterilization really means. A vaginoplasty does not create a functioning female reproductive tract. It’s a permanent wound. On open cavity, made through skin grafts of skin that grows on the exterior. It was never designed to line a body cavity, and so is prone to infection, which makes the area smell. Hair grows inside the cavity, and needs to be layered. The cavity requires specialized care forever. Years from now, they will require specialized nursing in elder care facilities. Many transgender are horrified at the reality of vaginoplasty. Many female to male transgenders bitterly regret the drugs that made permanent changes to their bodies.
Sex reassignment surgery regret is a real phenomenon.
It is sad to think how many parents think they are doing right by their transgender children, automatically affirming them, only to create a bitter, traumatized, permanently maimed adult who wonders why no one said, “No.”
The common consensus among transgender is that automatic affirmation is what they encounter in the medical community and support groups. Many later wish that weren’t the case.
As for the bathroom and changing room controversy, there should be no penises in girls changing rooms, showers, and bathrooms. It’s a privacy and public safety issue. When you mix biological genders, there are assaults, pregnancies, and shame. Girls and women have a right to penis free private spaces when they are vulnerable. Transgenderism is different than sexuality. It seems to be assumed that a transgender teenager, intact, would not be interested in girls. See the Loudon County assault by a transgender in a skirt, in a girls’ bathroom. See Wi Spa. See the battered women case in Canada. See the NJ All Women’s Prison pregnancies. The answer is to provide single occupancy bathrooms and changing rooms for anyone who needs it. There are many reasons why a student would not want to get changed in front of others. That allows safety and privacy for the transgender student, and it also respects the rights and feelings of female students.
There is a total lack of common sense in transgender politics. If most children grow out of transgenderism, and transgender have a very high rate of suicide and sterilization, then obviously automatic affirmation, gender reassignment, puberty blockers, and changing bathrooms and locker room access is not the way to go. Automatic affirmation would be irresponsible, yet that’s what’s being pushed.
I strongly suspect that the DSM has it wrong.
Nearly all transexual suffer from anxiety and depression. Something that also leads to high rates of suicide.
I strongly suspect that gender dysphoria is SOMETIMES a symptom of anxiety and depression, rather than an independent problem.
In the past decade anorexia and bulimia among teenage girls has nearly disappeared while transsexualism has spiked.
Anorexia and bulimia are also characterized by anxiety and depression.
If someone is suffering from anxiety and depression treat those BEFORE anything else.
Especially a child.