“Then Hate Me When Thou Wilt”: Salford Removes Sonnets as “Products of White Western Culture”

The University of Salford has reportedly removed sonnets and other “pre-established literary forms” from a creative writing course assessment. The university is seeking to focus on thematic writing but also stated that sonnets and other traditional forms “tend to be the products of white western culture.”Sonnets are, of course, one of the major poetic forms that have shaped creative writing for centuries. The structure of a fourteen-line poem written in iambic pentameter has challenged students throughout education from high school to university level classes. While associated with Western literature, it is a major form associated with such great writers as Shakespeare, Dante Alighieri, John Milton and others. Even Michelangelo wrote in sonnet form.
We have recently seen calls to drop Shakespeare to combat “white supremacy” or to reduce the dominance of “white authors.”The University of Salford will now remove an exam section that required students to write the traditional forms, including sestinas and sonnets.A slideshow reportedly connected the move to “decolonising the curriculum.” First-year students may still be exposed to sonnets with other forms.

The last word should be left to Shakespeare in sonnet form who warned that “other strains of woe, which now seem woe, Compared with loss of thee will not seem so”:

“Then hate me when thou wilt; if ever, now;
Now, while the world is bent my deeds to cross,
Join with the spite of fortune, make me bow,
And do not drop in for an after-loss:
Ah, do not, when my heart hath ‘scoped this sorrow,
Come in the rearward of a conquer’d woe;
Give not a windy night a rainy morrow,
To linger out a purposed overthrow.
If thou wilt leave me, do not leave me last,
When other petty griefs have done their spite
But in the onset come; so shall I taste
At first the very worst of fortune’s might,
And other strains of woe, which now seem woe,
Compared with loss of thee will not seem so.”

 

131 thoughts on ““Then Hate Me When Thou Wilt”: Salford Removes Sonnets as “Products of White Western Culture””

  1. The word is oikophobia and it means hatred of one’s own society. This is a privileged, first world issue which is odd since the privileged, first world is where everyone wants to be. Nobody in Africa, South America or even Asia hates their own world as much as rich white western idiots. Overeducated morons have so much leisure time that they can sit around navel gazing and trying their best to ponder what is important.

    The same leftist fools that are critical of our great western thinkers and writers have no problem idolizing the morons at the Met Gala or Kim Kardashian OR EVEN JOE BIDEN, but of course they think that Shakespeare should be shunned.

    The good news is that every year my own, and that of my contemporaries, intelligence ranks higher and higher as compared to the newly “educated”.

      1. I thought the word was oinkophobia, fear of pigs. After all, it was the 1984 pigs creating such feelings. 🙂

  2. Interesting that Salford is efforting to decolonize their university from western white culture, led by a Council dominated by a western white membership. I suspect if one were to dig deeper, this is likely an ESG move.

  3. Are the dolts on the left willing to admit that the life they so comfortably and safely lead is the product of the Western World or would they prefer to create a world for themselves based on the “African World, or the North Korean World or any of the Western Hemisphere worlds prior to 1492? The hypocrisy is equal to millennials sipping Starbucks while texting on their Iphones the evils of capitalism. The Universities in the Western World need to befumigated for the express removal of such dullards as they are a poison to the very concept of education and edification.

  4. @sam

    Comments such as those above have been made by our enlightened elites. Just shows how out of touch they are regarding how ordinary people live and how they despise us.

    antonio

  5. “tend to be the products of white western culture.”

    They spit in the face of Western culture — the very culture whose values make their life possible.

    That does not end well.

  6. Well if we are going to delete poetry, writings, books, histories because of the sins of the groups that wrote them throughout this world then you’re going to have a pretty thin library. The comprehensive book would have an introduction that will say “This is a book written by people without sin” and then followed by 400 pages of blank paper.

    1. “. . . because of the sins . . .”

      And note what the “sin” is: Being white, i.e., a trait over which one has no control.

    2. You anticipate that any of these lately mis-educated progs would understand your statement. They seem so devoid of a true, factual grounding in history as to be ignorant of their own ignorance. Just how do you reach generations of such naïve/brainwashed voters? I say you cannot and the task ahead to save this nation is beyond ability to comprehend by most. I see little light at the end of this tunnel.

      1. Just how do you reach generations of such naïve/brainwashed voters? I say you cannot…

        Alma, I would say you’re exactly right. As Bezmenov warned 38 years ago, once the Marxists have successfully demoralized these individuals, then they are a lost cause.

        In what is perhaps a most striking passage in the interview, here’s how Bezmenov described the state of a “demoralized” person:

        “As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore,” said Bezmenov. “A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures; even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him [a] concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it, until he [receives] a kick in his fan-bottom. When a military boot crashes his balls then he will understand. But not before that. That’s the [tragedy] of the situation of demoralization.”
        https://bigthink.com/the-present/yuri-bezmenov/

  7. Republicans ban professors from mentioning racial and equity issues, and you are just fine with that. But a school making their own choices on curriculum and you freak out. Methinks you are just a Republican partisan hypocrite.

    1. Sammy, I must have missed a Republican banning a “professor” or, “professors”. Who, well, what is the name or names of the Republican or, Republicans that did the banning, and the name of the Professor or, Professors they didn’t want them mentioning racial or equity issues? That you state that Mr Turley is fine with this? And how are you so sure, that he is if certain Republicans actually did this?

    2. What Professors are you speaking of. If you mean kindergarten through 3rd grade, then yes Republicans have banned teachers from discussing issues of sexuality with small children, I.e. grooming. There is a gulf of a difference spanning the universe from that and attempting to erase review of a class of poetry in a university, the very existence of which, is a product of white, western, culture.

    3. Equity is the antithesis of equality. It should be rejected at every opportunity.

  8. Next week the they’ll probably hire Professors Eminem and Lil Wayne to instruct poetry.

    1. In another lifetime I handled the merchandise at arenas and stadiums for special events like concerts. It might surprise you that the audience for rappers like Eminem, Lil Wayne, Snoop Dogg, and others is about 95% white which also mimics their record sales. Those “professors” are just giving white people what they want and are willing to pay for.

      1. 95%? I call bullchips (esp because coming from you)

        Kindly provide a reputable source link or remain a discredited angry black old man.

        1. What a sad and lonely life you must live where trolling others is your only source of joy. You are the one is disbelief, I’m good with what I’ve witnessed. Look it up yourself.

  9. These spoiled children are going to reap exactly what they are sowing, and it’s already begun. The should rename the university experience ar large as: ‘Shooting Yourself in the Foot and Cutting Off Your Own Nose, A Discourse in Temper Tantrums’.

  10. @jeffsilberman

    Why do you assume I am a ‘Trumpist’? Big opportunity, big disappointment. Never looked at Trump like s@@tlibs viewed the Messiah (i.e. Barack Hussein Obama).

    But Trump moved the Overton window and made the left show their hand. Made them show us what they really think of the rest of us. And I can assure you the feeling is mutual.

    And hate to break it to you, we aren’t going back to the Mitt Romneys and George W. Bushes. Perhaps an amicable divorce?

    antonio

  11. @enigmainblackcom

    Maybe you could suggest one of the glorious African symphonies, playwrights or other world renowned cultural icons of which there are many. And they would be better known but for ‘White supremacy’.

    I heard that sub Saharan Africans were smelting steel with semiconductor technology at one time but that this knowledge was ‘stolen’ by evil Whites.

    Please enlighten us!

    antonio

  12. drop Shakespeare to combat “white supremacy” or to reduce the dominance of “white authors

    Of course minimizing Shakespeare will not elevate a single author.

    “You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people’s initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.”
    ― William J. H. Boetcker

    But its another white guy.

  13. I want my son to learn the history of the world. So when he goes to a college he has to probably go to Brittain or some place overseas.
    We shall overcome!
    We shall over come!
    We shall poop on Harvard today!

  14. Enigma says:

    “Black history is too hurtful for white people to learn about.”

    The South will never forgive blacks for slavery.

    1. “The South will never forgive blacks for slavery.”
      ***************************
      2% of Southerners owned slaves in 1860 thus no forgiveness necessary on any side. Black history is fine to learn about since it’s really American history. There is no black history outside that context unless you want to delve into blacks all over the world and then it’s world history.

      1. Mespo says:

        “2% of Southerners owned slaves in 1860”

        Some things never change. Nowadays, 2% owns most of the wealth.

  15. @independent bob

    Just remember the $6.00 a gallon gas is all for the ‘greater good’. We should be taking more public transportation anyway, right? And remember lentils make a great substitute for meat.

    antonio

    1. “. . . lentils make a great substitute for meat.”

      And the “substitute” for a/c: A hand-held fan.

      For heat: A fire in a cave.

      And for life: Death.

  16. Turley’s argument about deleting whiteness appears to be, “Look how much great whiteness we will miss?” I don’t particularly mind teaching sonnets and Shakespeare, but I’m curious as to what the rest of the curriculum looks like? If the only thing taught is white history (while Black history is too hurtful for white people to learn about), that might be worth a look.

    1. “. . . deleting whiteness . . .”

      That you interpret Western culture as “white” culture, as opposed to seeing its fundamental values, is the essence of racism.

        1. Why don’t you splain black history to us, particularily that occurred in Sub-Saharan Africa? What was developed in that area and exported to the world? Who did that development? What are they exporting today other than say oil reserves, and commodities, that they did not development on their own? Are they even exporting Produce anymore? Nope

    2. Wellllll, you could always teach about black culture. See the 350 millions of views on these Youtube iambic pentameter ballads. Considering how they denigrate women, demonstrate prehistoric thinking and exhibit trash talk, of course blacks love these poetic symphonies. But one suspects you will ignore these rhythmic creative lyricists because …you know, you are an uncle Tom self-loathing black.

        1. enigma:

          “Let the name-calling begin!”
          ******************************

          No name-calling. Some people just don’t desire to expose themselves to some forms of black culture. Like some don’t like Italian or Spanish culture. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, ethnic pride can be a source of great accomplisment. Fifty’s crooner, Perry Como’s, family migrated legally from Italy (Abruzzi) with exactly $50 in lira in their pockets made a life for themselves with no government assistance in Cannonsburg, PA. Even though they couldn’t afford it, they sent the young Perry (one of 10 kids) to music lessons and bought him a $3.00 organ. With lots of hard work working weddings and clubs, he finally signed a deal with a traveling orchestra and then onto fame with RCA Victor. He paid for his family to move from their poverty stricken neighborhood and into the middle class. His father worked everyday at the mill until his heart condition forced him into disability. Perry cut hair to provide for the family and his father encouraged him to develop his voice even though it meant less money for the family.

          That’s the ethnicity that I know and a source of Italian-American pride as it should be. Family first, sacrifice, working hard, watching and wanting the the kids to grow and thrive and gratitude for the chance — just the chance — at sucess. It that descrbes current black culture, then count me in. (BTW when I grew up, it did – more Black families were intact than Caucasian ones as their fathers were in the home). If it doesn’t, I’m not interested.

          1. “No name-calling. Some people just don’t desire to expose themselves to some forms of black culture. ”

            That’s fair enough, but we were talking about the curriculum of a University. What I said, lest it get lost in the name calling of others, is that I don’t mind the teaching of sonnets and Shakespeare but I wondered if anybody else’s culture was included? I’m all for ethnic pride, I’m not for ethnic exclusion which is what most of the fake CRT complaints are about.

            1. enigma:

              “I’m all for ethnic pride, I’m not for ethnic exclusion which is what most of the fake CRT complaints are about.”
              *************************
              Me neither. I think every ethnicity should get a fair shake and let people pick what they want to talk about. If we’re talking English literature (the langauage not the island) I think every group gets a sonnet or two. If we’re talking English Literature (the island) I think omitting Shakesspeare is a capital offense. Let people pick and they will invariably pick what interests them. If it’s Black Cultural Studies so be it.

              The reason folks hate CRT is that it’s fundamentally confrontational and demeaning to whites. If you tell a white kid “check your privilege at the door,” (as CRT does – I have the documents) you’re implying they have privilege. Maybe true for a rich lacross-playing kid in Loudoun but damn stupid if it’s a dirt poor white kid from Covington. Worst part is that CRT judges by race — which we are told legally schools may not do. Lots of white people hate white people. They need counseling not a curriculum to teach.

              In America, no group gets a free ride regardless of their previous history here or abroad. Nobody (least of all the government) owes anybody anything. The sooner the Left accepts that the better they will be since misery seems to be the only idea they have in abundance.

              1. “The reason folks hate CRT is that it’s fundamentally confrontational and demeaning to whites. If you tell a white kid “check your privilege at the door,” (as CRT does – I have the documents) you’re implying they have privilege.”

                First, CRT isn’t being taught below a grad school level and not much then. SOme curriculums mention some aspect of race in America’s history (how could it not) and because real history can’t be taught in a manner consistent with “American Exceptionalism,” some would rather nothing be said at all. My county is literally burning books.

                ” Nobody (least of all the government) owes anybody anything. ”

                I used to think (just as I’d been taught) that reparations was a ridiculous concept. That was until I understood the role that government played/plays in imposing inequity. You might be surprised the extent white people got reparations after the Civil War? The Japanese got reparations after their Internment. The government might be just the right body to make good because you certainly don’t want us looking to what families benefitted from the enslavement of others.

                1. enigma:

                  Well CRT isn’t directly taught as a subject in primary and secondary school but CRT concepts are taught as early as kindergarten according to Virginia DOE so if it walks and talks like CRT, it’s CRT. Here’s the report from SOPI and we now learn that the Leftist education Maoists aren’t quite as smart as they think they are:

                  https://www.doe.virginia.gov/statistics_reports/interim-30-day-report-on-inherently-divisive-concepts.pdf

                  1. I especially liked the part of the report that said they removed any implication that white people benefit from racism. Let’s get rid of that concept because it can’t possibly be true.
                    While the direct teaching of CRT certainly doesn’t happen, the teaching that white is good, explaining away almost wiping out Native Americans and saying it was God’s will (Manifest Destiny). The church was one of the main institutions (besides the government) supporting enslavement so we have to clean that up. And the Civil Rights Act referred to as being the law of the land (later gutted by SCOTUS because that’s what they do) didn’t eliminate racism like Virginia claims, it only eliminates redress. The report throws some shade on Affirmative Action because America is obviously on a level playing field (I need a sarcasm emoji). This document is more political than educational, just like Florida banning all the math books but one and going after Disney for daring to object to King DeSantis. Virginia DOE is no different than the Florida Board of Education. They are running scared of the politicians that allow them to exist.

                2. Enig What about the 1964-1965 Welfare, Civil rights – voting rights acts. With all the affirmative actions, tokens, reduced standards and about $26 trillion of reparations expended, and what has that accomplished? Nothing but still reducing standards., and worse, breaking down the family unit. As MLK, Jr explained he wanted to be judre ged by character not color. USA has had a black POTUS, a black DOJ AG, for 8 years, and most of the largest cities in America have a black Dem, mostly female mayor and chief of police, Boards of Commissioneres and chairman of those mostly black and you contend America is sestemically racists. Where does crime numbers stand in most of those arenas? I am not for a CRT education platform in elementary, middle, or high school, to just tell my child because he/she is white that they should be guilty for being white and automatically equates you to be a racists. At this stage I am for under the auspecies of the US Constitution to give any and ALL the equal right to the pursuit of happiness, but you you must now pay your way. This is 2022 not 1806, 1906, not 1966. Be judged by your character, and your merit?

                3. “I used to think (just as I’d been taught) that reparations was a ridiculous concept. That was until I understood . . .”

                  So affirmative action, for decades, is not enough of a “reparation?”

                  1. Affirmative Action never was what you think it is. At best if forced white people to remove barriers that virtually excluded minorities, at the same time the minimums imposed were treated as caps. If you had to hire 15% minorities, you might get to 16% by accident but the end result was a guaranteed 84-85% for white people. When people complain that Black people are taking Asian slots at Harvard, it’s because white people through legacy and other admission policies aren’t ceding any of their slots, leaving the crabs to fight each other in the barrel.
                    Affirmative Action programs also included women. The quota could be met by hiring or contracting with firms owned by white women, many of those firms were headed by spouses of relatives of the white male owners contracting with them. Affirmative Action is best looked at as a cap, it’s never been a gift, though it did help some individuals like Clarence Thomas get into schools they couldn’t have otherwise.

                    1. “[T]he end result was a guaranteed 84-85% for white people.”

                      Nice deflection.

                      If you were intellectually honest, you would have written: “a guaranteed15% for some, because of their race.” But such intellectual honesty veers too close to the fact that affirmative action is racist.

                    2. I’m reminded of Shawshank Redemption when the warden was told he couldn’t be that obtuse. I’ll write it slow for you. White people guaranteed themselves a greater percentage of jobs than their percentage of the population limiting everyone else to fight for the scraps. They were held back because of their race, not given anything.

                    3. Sam, deflection is Enigma’s game. When Enigma said. ““brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations”, did he correct himself or explain the difference when I quoted Henry Gates saying it was 388,000?

                      No. He deflected.

                    4. “I’m reminded of . . .”

                      You’re good at gaslighting. But not that good.

                    5. Affirmative Action is best looked at as a cap, it’s never been a gift, though it did help some individuals like Clarence Thomas get into schools they couldn’t have otherwise.

                      It’s best looked at as a crutch that no self-respecting person would be limited by. There’s a principle in process management that basically states that if a process is capable of producing the desired outcome, then the only barrier to repeating the outcome is special-cause variation. There are millions of successful black Americans that understand this principle and they do not accept being limited by those variations. Affirmative action is such a variation. It’s a path designed to keep people dependent on the government for limited success. Reparations is a far worse variation. It sucks any desire to achieve success on their own as they await their payday.

                    6. “It’s best looked at as a crutch that no self-respecting person would be limited by”

                      Is that worse than being locked out of the jobs altogether? You do recognize that it’s why affirmative action came about in the first place? Which was better, Affirmative Action or exclusion?

                    7. Is that worse than being locked out of the jobs altogether?

                      They aren’t locked out of jobs, their locked into the victim mindset. There have been and always will be barriers (exclusions) to success. Look at any job announcement and you’ll find them. Successful people aren’t limited by such barriers or exclusions. I grew up in poverty. Single mother with 5 children on welfare. My siblings and I all broke out of that environment by the age of 16. And we all found a way to succeed despite the barriers.

                    8. Another obtuse one. So affirmative action wasn’t a response to the purposeful refusal to hire and contract with minorities by government entities and major employers? This is why history needs to be told because people like you (and Texas and Florida schoolbooks) tend to completely rewrite it.

                      The middle-class was created largely on the backs of VA and FHA loans. Loans which most Black people couldn’t get until the Fair Housing Act of 1968. Everything you see as crutches and giving free stuff was actually a reaction to widespread (I can’t say systemic because I’d be accused of teaching CRT) discrimination. Then Congress passes a watered down Act which the Supreme Court later guts. That’s American history.

                    9. What part aren’t you buying? That VA and FHA loans helped start the middle-class? That Blacks were excluded for half a century? That it made a difference? If there’s anything you dispute factually let me know? Otherwise, you not buying it is either being obtuse or willfully ignorant.

                    10. “The middle-class was created largely on the backs of VA and FHA loans.”

                      BS.

                      The middle class was created by American industrialists, such as Ford, William Levitt, A.P. Giannini (whose bank, Bank of America, was one of the first to offer banking services to the middle class).

                      That’s one problem with a racist view of history. You miss actual history.

                    11. Thank you for proving my point. Levitt used FHA and VA loans to build his communities. Programs that almost entirely excluded Black people.

                      “Through government loan programs (VA and FHA), new homeowners could buy a Levittown home with little or no down payment and since the house included appliances, it provided everything a young family could need.”

                      https://www.thoughtco.com/levittown-long-island-1435787

                      The industrialists like Ford contracted with unions that also initially wouldn’t let Black people in.

                      Bank of America used red-lining and refusal to lend to Black people as a long-standing practice.

                      There is no version of Ameriocan history that doesn’t include racism. You’ve just convinced yourself of the lie.

                    12. There is no version of Ameriocan history that doesn’t include racism. You’ve just convinced yourself of the lie.

                      Duh. Is there any period in world history that didn’t include racism? Or any other “ism” for that matter? Take your pick; White, Black, Brown, etc. They’ve all been the oppressor and the oppressed at some point. Additionally, the oppressors weren’t always a net negative to our country, nor were the oppressed always a net positive.

                      Your entire schtick is based on a cherry-picked view of history. Unlike you, I won’t accuse you of believing in a lie. It’s the whole truth that you avoid. That makes you as much a racist as any other.

                    13. What is the “whole truth” I’m missing. If I tell someone their pure as snow version of history isn’t the truth, then I’m the racist. Sam picked out his heroes that created the middle-class and all of them used racism to do it. Your boy Allan trolls everything I say, and when he finds out it was the Texas school books promoting a lie instead of me, it’s my fault for having used them as an example of America misleading its youth.
                      If you were actually listening to me you’d hear me say that it’s class that is the biggest oppressor, class uses race as a means to keep people from uniting. There was a point in America when white indentured servants, Black indentured servants, and Black enslaved people joined forces and burned down Jamestown in a revolt against the governor (Bacon’s Rebellion). The powers that be set up a new race structure, got rid of indentured servitude, and used every means possible, especially racism, to keep the lower classes from uniting. That was the plan then and that’s the plan now,
                      At least you, unlike most of the people here, aren’t saying I’m lying. I’m just telling an inconvenient truth nobody wants to hear. Until we eradicate the rasicm piece of what America still is, we won’t get close to dealing with the class issue.
                      Instead of calling me the racist, how about recognizing in some of these discussions that I’m not promoting some leftist lie. You don’t have to agree with my conclusions but support the facts. Just once in a while would be nice. Every now and then.

                    14. “Your boy Allan trolls everything I say, and when he finds out it was the Texas school books promoting a lie.”

                      I troll? Did you note how you injected me into your discussion with Ollie? Of course not. Why would you? You also didn’t notice that you were the one who quoted the errant statistic. It met your needs, so you said nothing. Did you notice that you had a chance to correct it? Of course not. Why fix it when you can go on the attack. Did you notice who I quoted? Of course not. You don’t seem to notice much of anything unless you feel it can enhance your claim of victimhood.

                    15. You are such an idiot. I provided an example of how Texas school books got it wrong. I can’t correct their lies, just point them out. For the record, the publisher apologized, had you bothered to read the provided article then quote came from. You can’t apologize, because you are not only a troll, but a lying, worthless one.

                    16. Enigma, you are the one that included the quote in your rhetoric. You had a chance to correct any impressions created, but you doubled down. You should have apologized not for the statement but for your responses. What I did was correct any misimpression by quoting Henry Gates. When it comes to race and politics, you are full of fallacies.

                    17. I can’t remember which book of Sowell’s to refer you to so I copied a blurb from a news article.

                      “Thomas Sowell on Race and Red-Lining

                      Thomas Sowell’s new column: “It so happens that whites were turned down for mortgage loans at a higher rate than Asian Americans, but that fact seldom made it into the newspaper headlines or the political rhetoric. Nor did either the mainstream media or political leaders mention the fact that black-owned banks turned down black mortgage loan applicants at least as often as white-owned banks did.”

                      Imagine all that! I am not saying discrimination doesn’t exist. I know it does from direct experience, but that is not a reason to overplay your grievance.

                      Shucks, whites are turned down for mortgages more than Asians. Maybe, the answer is Asians don’t default on loans as frequently as whites. We can extend that to any group.

                      I can’t guess how the quasi-government agencies handle race, but I know from experience that NYC public housing, at least in the past, used to be quite racist.

                      I wonder why insurance rates skyrocket when BLM and Antifa riot and burn down businesses. Does anyone think that might have something to do with it?

                      Most private businesses prefer money more than being racist. When they yield to racism over cash, it is generally from pressure. The government has frequently been such a source directly or indirectly, through laws or lack of enforcement of laws.

                    18. Enigma is angry because he lives in a high crime black neighborhood outside Orlando, and redirects his rage on here instead of his situation, i.e. victim grievance industry. He amounted to nothing in life and tries to convey a level of accomplishment when there is none.

                    19. You trying to dox me? I used to live in areas outside Orlando. I’ve lived in Winter Park, and Windermere. I also have lived within the city limits in an average neighborhood. Now though, I live in Trump country and of course I’ve written about it.
                      https://medium.com/@williamspivey/update-from-trump-country-fe733aef1045

                      Rage is the last word to describe me, try disappointed at the responses I get here. I don’t need fake Internet fame and glory, I have a great life that you can’t undermine.

                    20. Enigma, Winter Park is a nice and friendly place. I love going there for their outdoor art festival which is one of the best in the country. The people I meet there are decent and nice. Why did you leave?

                    21. I started to simply not respond. You ask a casual qu8uestion about my life like we’re friends? You are a troll, interrupting my every conversation that didn’t include you. You lie, and then lie about your lies. Go away!

                    22. Enigma, when you stop insulting and lying about people many on this blog support, perhaps I will have no reason to respond. Are you able to understand that?

                      If you stop race-baiting, maybe I would have no reason to respond.

                      If you stopped including my name in posts to everyone, maybe I wouldn’t feel the need to respond.

                      I like Winter Park. Why did you move from there?

    3. “Black history is too hurtful for white people to learn about”

      Victimhood galore.

      It’s strange, but my black friends and acquaintances look down on those who talk like you and demean other black people in the process. It might be that they are all affluent even though some had nothing when they were young. They know that blacks can succeed if they don’t fall into your trap.

    4. Enigma,
      A thorough US history curriculum will include many peoples and what happened. I feel like you are caricaturing schools a bit. I know I learned about some of the horrors of slavery and lynching–we even listened to Billie Holiday’s “Strange Fruit” and discussed it. We read quite a bit of Langston Hughes, too. Learning world history would help students see the struggles, sins, and even triumphs of all people over the course of human history–and that is filled with many, many more hurt and horrors. Oh, but wait, history ain’t tested and the current education leadership only seem to want to “measure what matters”.

      1. ” Oh, but wait, history ain’t tested and the current education leadership only seem to want to “measure what matters””

        Current education in public schools is being led by states like Texas that only teach what matters to them. They teach “American Exceptionalism,” and things that put real history in a less bad light. When you learned about the horrors of slavery and lynching, did they teach you about forced breeding and rape to explain the number of Black babies born relative to white ones. Historians covered it up and called it “natural increase.” I don’t think I’m hard enough on schools. I live in Trump Country where the schools are banning books by Black authors so the enlightenment of your school is the exception and not the norm. I wonder if your school is still teaching those subjects or have the teachers become too fearful of lawsuits and firings.

        1. Enigma,
          Students do not need to learn about *all* the sordid details to get an understanding of the horrors of slavery. Neither did I learn about the details of the Rape of Nanking or, longer past, what Cyrus’ grandpa did to his advisor for not killing Cyrus as an infant. People can be quite awful to each other, but focusing on the wickedness too much is unhelpful. Acknowledging the evil but then uplifting those who fought against such things is better for the soul and for students to strive for the good.

          1. If you leave out the worst parts, heven’t you changed history? And to what purpose, to excuse behavior and make one side look better? You say acknowledge the evil but what you seem to mean is minimize it.

            1. You can show some of the terrible things to demonstrate a point, but there are only so many hours in a day and only so many days in a school year. You have to constrain the details of history. Do you write absolutely everything you do in a single day in your diary?

              “what you seem to mean is minimize it”.

              That is not what I said at all. Don’t twist my words.

              1. “Students do not need to learn about *all* the sordid details to get an understanding of the horrors of slavery.”

                Sounds like minimizing to me. What parts would you leave out?

                1. Prairie, Enigma wishes to vent his anger at the world, thinking his victimhood is the worst the world has ever seen. He wants to prove it to the young in history class. However, Enigma takes no interest in teaching kids how to read.

                2. Enigma, there are 500,000+ horrible things that happened, I’m sure. Multiply that 10000x if you teach world history. It does not make sense to enumerate all the terrible things people do to one another.

                  1. Let’s pretend they didn’t happen. Texas already tried it.

                    https://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-do-new-texas-textbooks-whitewash-slavery-segregation-20150707-story.html
                    They called slaves, “workers.” What’s wrong with that?
                    https://www.newsweek.com/company-behind-texas-textbook-calling-slaves-workers-apologizes-we-made-380168

                    U.S.
                    Company Apologizes for Texas Textbook Calling Slaves ‘Workers’: ‘We Made a Mistake’
                    BY ZOË SCHLANGER ON 10/5/15 AT 6:16 PM EDT
                    Textbooks
                    Texas purchased almost 140,000 copies of the brand-new textbook that calls slaves “workers.”
                    DANNY NICHOLSON/FLICKR/CREATIVE COMMONS
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                    Comments
                    U.S.
                    TEXAS

                    Texas’s latest textbook controversy involves a high school edition of publishing giant McGraw-Hill’s new World Geography, in which a caption refers to African slaves who were forcibly brought to the Americas as “workers.” The company’s CEO, David Levin, wrote a letter of apology to his employees Monday.

                    “In life and business mistakes are made. The first step in correcting them is acknowledging them,” Levin wrote. “We made a mistake.”

                    According to the Texas Education Agency, districts in the state bought a combined 138,930 copies of that textbook this school year.

                    The caption was brought to the public’s attention last week, when Roni Dean-Burren, a resident of Texas, posted a photo of the textbook to Facebook. Dean-Burren’s son had texted her the photo, along with a note that read, “We was real hard workers wasn’t we,” and a disappointed-looking emoji.

                    NEWSWEEK NEWSLETTER SIGN-UP >

                    “The Atlantic Slave Trade between the 1500s and 1800s brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations,”

                    1. “They called slaves, “workers.” What’s wrong with that?”

                      Fits right in with “comrade”.

                    2. ““Workers” implies both choice and wages, neither of which was the case. I hope you’re joking but Texas wasn’t/isn’t.”

                      I am mostly joking. That was pretty stupid on the part of the publisher (on a sidenote, CA and TX essentially fight over who leads the country for the direction of textbooks).

                      However, if you pair “workers” with “comrade”, then, it more or less fits, because in that communist scenario, workers get neither a choice nor wages; it’s just a slightly different sort of slavery.

                    3. I would never pair “workers” with “comrade.” The Comrades did get pay based on what the govt. decided was appropriate for the task. The “workers” were property and could be killed or raped without recourse. Not the same.

                    4. Enigma obviously never heard of “Arbeit macht frei,” which means “Work sets you free” or “Work makes one free.” That appeared at the entrance to Auschwitz and other German concentration camps where millions of people did forced labor until they were too weak, and then they were killed. Millions died.

                      He is too involved in working on his own victimhood.

                    5. “The Atlantic Slave Trade between the 1500s and 1800s brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations,”

                      Enigma, the problem you bring to the list is your lack of accurate information, and when the correct information is presented, you want to kill the messenger.

                      I will quote from PBS (I don’t know if they are accurate either). Henry Gates writes this.

                      “And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That’s right: a tiny percentage.”

                      If it were only one slave, that would be too many, but you live your life around victimhood. Based on the two preceding generations, I can say the same about my wife and my family. More of our families were killed than permitted to live. If we compare our respective fates based on the generations we knew and were close to, we only met those that remained alive.

                      You shouldn’t be claiming victimhood. I should, but I will not permit my life to be wasted doing so. You shouldn’t be paid for what happened to your ancestors that you never knew. We should, for we knew and lived with the few that remained.

                      I am not interested in looking back. I will look forward like you should. Instead, you want revenge and, in the process, are creating the same world that behaved badly before killing and enslaving races they did not like.

                      You haven’t learned. You haven’t progressed. You are your own enemy and the enemy of good people that look at hate as wasted energy.

                    6. ““And how many of these 10.7 million Africans were shipped directly to North America? Only about 388,000. That’s right: a tiny percentage.”

                      America as planned for in the Constitution and enacted later by Thomas Jefferson went the route of domestic production of slaves. That means forced breeding and rape to get higher output. Jefferson wrote George Washington about the high value of a female slave that produces an offspring every two years. Laws were passed to make rape of slaves legal and make sure the rapists had no responsibility for the rape or the child. Historians called it “natural increase” when it was anything but.

                      You quote a few people that say something you like but don’t know enough to have context. Additionally, slaves arrived here after a pit stop in the West Indies. What point were you trying to make about 388,000 being directly shipped here as if directly made any difference at all? We still ended up with millions and then passed laws to replicate slavery when it ended. You cant “correct” anyone being as ignorant as you are.

                    7. Enigma, that was Henry Gates who I quoted. Are you unaware of who he is?

                      The statement commented on had to do with the claim of “brought millions of workers from Africa to the southern United States to work on agricultural plantations” You didn’t even stop to think. It satisfied your rhetoric. The actual number, according to Gates, was 388,000, a tiny fraction of the number you put in your reply. Unless you can prove otherwise, how can anyone trust your data?

                      Did you bother to prove the millions? No. Did you disprove the 388,000? No. Did you pay attention to either number to explain the difference? No. Instead, you rambled on to your next topic, but how are we to trust those ramblings when you don’t first address the number of slaves brought to the US?

                      “You quote a few people that say something you like but don’t know enough to have context. ”

                      What context did I need? I quoted from PBS something written by Henry Gates.

                      “What point were you trying to make about 388,000 being directly shipped here”

                      I was correcting your number that was off by so much that anyone who studies the subject would know better. You state we have to spend more time teaching about slavery, but you don’t even have the numbers correct. You want people like yourself to teach about slavery, but if that happened, we would have many ignoramuses on the subject because the teacher didn’t know it. There is something wrong with your concept of education.

                    8. I see where you went wrong. The figure you’re quoting wasn’t anything I wrote. It came directly from the Texas school books. I’ll await your apology.

                    9. No apology can be made, especially based on your later words. You posted it. Own it. Anyone reading it knew it was a quote, and most would know it was wrong. You could have corrected it in your response, but we got more garbage from you. I will quote.

                      “What point were you trying to make about 388,000 being directly shipped here as if directly made any difference at all? We still ended up with millions and then passed laws to replicate slavery when it ended. You cant “correct” anyone being as ignorant as you are. ”

                      You demonstrated your ignorance and not having the ability to know what you said previously. You didn’t even stop to think. The quote you provided satisfied your rhetoric.

                      “I see where you went wrong. ”

                      No Enigma, your victimhood took over. No other person went wrong. You went wrong, but you are unable to accept it.

                    10. Never in life have I anxiously awaited a comment from you and you didn’t disappoint. What you should learn is to stay out of other people’s conversations but your troll self is incapable of that. I was explaining to Prairie Rose how badly Texas was teaching about slavery. I was focused on the word “workers” as opposed to slaves. I do thank you for pointing out how wrong the whole paragraph was.
                      Of course you can’t apologize for blaming me for the quote. You’re incapable! I didn’t know what you say I said because I didn’t say it. They weren’t my words.
                      So continue criticising me for your ignorance. It fits you. A better man could at least grudgingly apologize. An average man would at least remain silent. But you are an ignorant troll and trolling is all you know to do. I will possibly further engage in conversation with you once you admiot your mistake. Good-bye!

                    11. “I was explaining to Prairie Rose how badly Texas was teaching about slavery.”

                      In the process, you were promoting things that weren’t true. To convince people, you have to be trustworthy, which you are not.

                      “Of course you can’t apologize for blaming me for the quote.”

                      Enigma, you are the one that needs to apologize, but we know that you will not take responsibility for your actions. You can’t help yourself but blame someone else for your failures. You copied the data and could have corrected it in your first reply, but instead, you wanted to complain.

                    12. Enigma,
                      You are right; it is not the same. The Kulaks and those shipped to the Gulags might quibble a bit about freedom, though, too.

    5. Very much @ Enigma: I’ve actually lived in other countries where black people were the majority, i.e. I was the minority, and without ‘America’, and my experience is the diametric opposite of yours. How about you? Bet you haven’t ventured much outside of your neighborhood or your employment circle. I’m willing to wager, though if I’m incorrect, correct me, but I pretty much think you are just another, albeit older, millennial. You wouldn’t be posting here if you were not also somewhat privileged (who that is worrying about paying their gas bill comes to a legal blog and writes posts that could effectively be blogs unto themselves?). And you have done this for years. I follow this site, and you have been a thorn for a very long time. That’s a lot of convenient time for a suffering soul that has nothing better to do. Either correctly name the issues at play or STFU. By my metrics and my life experience, i have spent more time around real black folks than you could dream of. Go away. You are a privileged and whiny tool. The day you wake up to that fact will change your life. And if you insist on posting here, find a way to post something that is actually smart and not a cut paste or a mind blind repetition of what someone else has told you. You are too old for that ****. At present, you present as either a paid troll, or an incredibly privileged and ignorant piece of something, and nobody is falling for that anymore. sorry your job was cancelled before you cashed in your 401k. Nobody cares. I have no alternative but to presume that the picture in your profile came from a stock agency. Black, my ***. Go ahead. Try to poke holes. You are a joke, and you are an embarrassment, and the vast, vast majority of us that do not need Democrat ‘enlightenment’ are already miles ahead of your pathetic, whiny, hateful, tripe. You are about to find out, big time.

      1. So to sum up, and combine the comments from you and Shaq. I’m an Uncle Tom, not really Black, paid troll, self-loathing Black, and you have spent more time around “real Black folks than I can dream of,” and my presence here means I’m privileged and shouldn’t be consorting with privileged white people. Did I miss anything?

    6. Eh? With whom are you arguing? Was there any statement anywhere, either in Turley’s blog post or in the source material, that the choice had to be *either* sonnets *or* some form – take haiku – that had been originated by a person or society of color? *Either* Shakespeare *or* Hughes?

      Is there any statement that so-called “white” history ought to be taught to the exclusion of so-called “black” history? That “white” history ought to exclude the depredations of European colonialism in favor of a nice literal whitewashiing?

      Is the straw person in the room with us right now?

      1. I asked the question about what other material was being taught and brought into the conversation the elimination of Black history under the name of eliminating CRT, and banning books. Texas and Florida School Boards are already eliminating and whitewashing American history which isn’t new. America used to distribute a “slave bible” which they borrowed from Britain that cut out all the chapters that mentioned revolution (Exodus) or a new world (Revelations). This isn’t imagined but has been going on… since America.

        1. “cut out all the chapters that mentioned revolution (Exodus)”

          This was probably not as widespread as it seems, or, it was ignored by many slaves. Harriet Tubman’s brother was named Moses.

          1. It came and went in waves. There were many periods when reading and writing weren’t allowed at all. The “slave bible” was introduced in the British West Indies right after the Haitain Revolution and spread to America at the same time. Typically after every revolution anywhere, more laws were passed to prevent reading in hopes Blacks here wouldn’t become aware. Even “free” Blacks of the time were subject to curfews, inability to gather in groups of three or more, and subject to the same rules about reading/

  17. I am quite certain that the current effort to remove Shakespeare (and Michelangelo) from public memory will be successful and in another 50 years no one would have heard of either!! Just wondering what our leftist friends intend to replace these dead white males with? Maybe the world renowned African symphonies? Or Maya Angelou? The former great works would be more respected and known, but for ‘White Supremacy’.

    As a deplorable, my knowledge is limited in such matters. Maybe one of our morally superior and intelligent s@@tlibs can enlighten the group?

    This all reminds me of the glorious Cultural Revolution in China. What an amazing event and we now get to experience our own version in the West.

    antonio

    1. Antonio asks:

      “Just wondering what our leftist friends intend to replace these dead white males with?”

      Would that include Trump? I would not mind Jared Kushner replacing Trump. How does that grab you Trumpists?

    1. the goal of the left is equal to the goal of the islamic jihadist; total annihilation of all that does not submit to their creed. And like the islamist, we have witnessed the carnage to which these fanatic prog jihafists will go to achieve their goals. I just wonder when islamist meets prog, which side will prevail.

    1. Goldman Sacks prediction is a no-brainer. Regular 87 octane gas is already above $6/gallon in my wonderful progressive state. Premium grades have been above $6/gallon for over a month.

    2. IB:

      “Goldman Sacks says, gasoline will hit $6.00 a gallon by summer.”
      ************************************
      Worth every penny and then some to rid of this godforsaken Dimwitted political party of panty-waist Communists and brain-challenged social engineers. I’d prefer tar and feathers but stopping their nefarious ambitions works too. $6/gallon probably means a Republican Senate majority and 60-70 House seats.

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