The FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago has unleashed a familiar euphoria among critics who have longed for–agents descending upon the President’s residence in a criminal operation. One MSNBC pundit declared that day of the “orange jumpsuit” may finally be at hand while another simply exclaimed “hallelujah.” It was a tad premature since we do not even know if classified material was found and, if so, whether there is a criminal case to be made from such a discovery.
I previously testified in Congress on the earlier seizure of the boxes at Mar-a-Lago under the Presidential Records Act and how criminal prosecutions have been rare under the law. Nevertheless, criminal charges are possible, including under Section 2071 which states that anyone can be prosecuted who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates or destroys … any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited … in any public office.” That crime, however, requires a showing of not just negligence but that “an act is … done voluntarily and intentionally and with the specific intent to do something the law forbids.”
Notably, even the most serious cases of mishandling classified records have not resulted in major charges. One example is that of former Clinton National Security Adviser Sandy Berger who was found to have secretly stuffed classified material into his pants and socks to remove them from a secure facility. He then hid them in a spot to be retrieved later. It was a flagrant and premeditated violation of federal law and put national security secrets at risk. Yet, Berger was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor and did not have to serve any jail time. Indeed, his security clearance was suspended for only three years.
However, critics were not particularly interested in whether Trump might have some suspended misdemeanor sentence. Rather, even before learning if any evidence of criminal conduct was found, critics turned to the ability to use the charge to disqualify Trump from future office. Section 2071 has excited the imagination of such critics because of a line that states that a convicted party can “be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.”
That was the enticing possibility highlighted by Marc Elias, Hillary Clinton’s campaign lawyer who was a critical player in pushing the false Russian collusion claims in the Steele dossier. In addition to accusations that he may have lied about the funding of the Steele dossier, Elias has been sanctioned in court for his conduct.
Elias was not alone citing the possible use of a Section 2071 charge to block Trump’s expected presidential run in 2024. Former federal prosecutor Harry Litman even suggested that this could be the actual plan of the Justice Department to end Trump’s political career: “So this could be the whole enchilada in terms of DOJ resolution.”
Consider that culinary-legal analysis for a second. The claim is that the Justice Department may be actively seeking to use a charge to block Trump as the real motivation for this raid and possible charge. There is not a hint of concern over the FBI being used to achieve such a political purpose. That is putting aside the fact that, unless there is evidence of a “willful and unlawful” effort to conceal or retain such material, the FBI could end up an enchilada short of a combination plate for prosecution.
There is also a significant constitutional hurdle facing this latest means of barring Trump from office.
This is not the first time that this disqualification argument has been made and scholars like Seth Tillman have previously raised constitutional objections to it. (Professor Josh Blackmun also has a column on this issue)
The problem is that the law would add a qualification or condition that is not stated in the Constitution. There are constitutional ways to impeach a president or to bar a former president from future office. The mishandling of official records is not one of them. In analogous cases like Powell v. McCormack and U.S. Term Limits v. Thornton, the Supreme Court rejected the authority of states to impose new qualifications for congressional seats under Article I. The same is presumably true under Article II when it comes to the chief executive.
There is ample reason to doubt that the presidency would be deemed barred by statute in this fashion. What would not be in doubt is how such novel claim of disqualification would be received by millions of citizens already skeptical of the motivations of both the Biden Administration and specifically the FBI.
The basis and even the motivation of this raid will become clear in time, including whether there is evidence of willful and unlawful conduct by the former president. However, whatever this raid produces, this “enchilada” will likely be hard for most judges to swallow as a way to keeping Trump off the ballot in 2024.
This column also appeared on Fox.com
Biden’s lawless, fascist regime insists they are just “following the law” where it leads them. Just like they are “following the science” on covid.
Americans need to wake up and know what time it is. As Kamala said, “That time is now.”
Alan Dershowitz weighs in.
Justice Department should have subpoenaed documents, not raided Trump’s home
BY ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR 08/09/22 01:15 PM ET
There were no raids, for example, on the homes of Hillary Clinton or former Clinton administration national security adviser Sandy Berger for comparable allegations of mishandling official records in the recent past. Previous violations of the Presidential Records Act typically have been punished by administrative fines, not criminal prosecution.
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/3594412-justice-department-should-have-subpoenaed-documents-not-raided-trumps-home/amp/
Stalinesque intimidation at the forefront of Democrat politics. They will destroy the nation to keep power.
BREAKING: Rep. Scott Perry says FBI seized his phone one day after Mar-a-Lago raid
Pennsylvania congressman sa
https://justthenews.com/government/congress/breaking-rep-scott-perry-says-fbi-seized-his-phone-one-day-after-mar-o-lago?utm_source=breaking&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletterys FBI didn’t need to stop him on family vacation and could have asked his lawyer for the phone.
That one was just pure Evil Anti-American. The Rep Perry is a head of the Freedom Caucus, aka anti-SML McConnell & his outlaws.
Tell me again the FBI raid on the Mar-A-Lago residence of President Trump had nothing to do with the J6 committee? I would say the weaponization of the administrative state is now fully out of the closet and coming for anyone they deem as a threat to their continued existence. Up next, 87,000 new IRS agents and their cache of newly purchased ammunition to provide American taxpayers better service.
This morning, while traveling with my family, 3 FBI agents visited me and seized my cell phone. They made no attempt to contact my lawyer, who would have made arrangements for them to have my phone if that was their wish. I’m outraged — though not surprised — that the FBI under the direction of Merrick Garland’s DOJ, would seize the phone of a sitting Member of Congress,” Perry said in his statement. “My phone contains info about my legislative and political activities, and personal/private discussions with my wife, family, constituents, and friends. None of this is the government’s business.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-ally-rep-scott-perry-says-fbi-seized-cell-phone-one-day-after-mar-a-lago-raid
In just the last few months, the Internal Revenue Service has bought almost 5,000,000 rounds of small arms ammunition — spending almost $700,000 in the process.
https://www.newyorkstatefirearmsassociation.org/why-did-the-irs-buy-5000000-rounds-of-ammo/
In the unlikely event this prevents Trump from running, he will be replaced by Desantis who stands a better chance of being elected.
I just heard yesterday the Biden regime has ordered 600 federal agencies to work on and submit their plan for “getting out the vote” – they have had 2 months to submit their moves in conjunction with Sorros NGO’s and Susan Rice is the czar set up to “okay” their “work” on stealing the election.
So don’t expect any non democommie to have a chance to win. Just like last time, no matter how egregious the criminality across every swing state and county all in favor of the democrats, it will be declared the fairest election ever in the entire universe, according to 501 former and current government officials, who somehow overcame Putin and his war, in cahoots with orange man bad, on democracy…
Everything is so ridiculous now, and by that I mean openly criminal, one can count on exactly nothing, but more demo DC high crimes bragged about right in the open, and spun of course, as SOP.
Federal employees may not participate in elections on govenrment time – it is illegal.
If Biden ordered them to do so that is an illegal order.
They are emboldened. They want Trump indicted and in handcuffs. They want to provoke Trump supporters to violence. They will not stop until it is all out civil war. They will destroy the constitution and the country in the process which is their endgame. “Waiting for the facts and to see the evidence” is utter and total hogwash.
Off Topic: (Sorry) Evening news just announced that a suspect was arrested in the killing of four Muslim men. His name is Muhammed ___________, and the killing involved a personal vendetta.
THIS IS AFTER THE MEDIA, FOR THE LAST 36+ HOURS, HAS BEEN TAINTING THE NEWS news with insinuation/innuendo of a “discriminatory hate crime.”
I can guarantee you that less people will learn of the suspect’s ethnicity/name -than heard the propaganda of a potential “hate crime.”
lin, those were so-called hate crimes. The two sects of Muslims have hated each other since the beginning.
Sunni & shia.
You may or may not be correct (because state discrimination laws GREATLY differ in their identification of protected classifications), but that is moot because this is not how the media portrayed it. Thanks
AND (even under federal hate crime statute) the killings need be based on that discriminatory motive. Here, it appears they all knew each other or were related? Either way, my beef is with MEDIA, not the elements of a crime. thanks
You are correct about this, but you will notice that I stated media’s “insinuation/innuendo of a ‘discriminatory hate crime.’” That has not been determined yet, since it appears he knew his victims.
I can guarantee you that less people will learn of the suspect’s ethnicity/name -than heard the propaganda of a potential “hate crime.”
You are prescient.
I’ve been watching the local morning new for 2 hours. Not a peep. I learned about the hate crimes on the same morning news, for a couple of days. And they do the same stories every half hour block.
Thank you Professor Turley for your very informative non partisan article. Admittedly, my family members and I are outraged at the actions taken by the DOJ & FBI. Holy shades of Mueller, Comey, Strozk, Page, secret email servers, FISA lies, Clinton Lynch tarmac meeting, Lois Lerner, Fast & Furious, Epstein committed suicide, Benghazi, Uranium One, Depends on what the meaning of “is” is, and process crime charges.
{It has the same meaning as Strok’s “there, there.”}
Peter Strzok. sorry
His name is actually spelled M-U-D 🙂
I think there’s also a “I,” “C,” and “K” in there somewhere.
mespo727272: Let’s play Wheel of Fortune. Are the first two letters preceding yours, maybe “S” “L” –or maybe four letters preceding yours, “S” “C”H” “T?” Can’t think of any to add to Diogenes, but he could reverse their order and still be correct.
The list of individuals never charged reminds me of the rotten fruit that eventually falls from the tree infested with bugs – and perhaps for those individuals no light at the end of this life. In the mean time selective justice is by definition “communism”. And that has never worked. Aquinas said evil can only exist in a parasitical relationship with the good or the host.
if that is an enchilada your using with this article it is not what one thinks of as an enchilada. Try this image instead
https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/farmers-market-enchiladas/
Merrick Garland has crossed the Rubicon, since the whole world knows Biden lacks the cognitive ability to read a cue card.
alea iacta est, the die is cast
– Julius Caesar when he crossed the Rubicon, 49 B.C.
The FBI, the Judiciary and Trump:
Given the recent history of abuse, it’s foolish to assume the bureau is now acting appropriately
Some have suggested a double standard in that the FBI just seized documents from Mr. Trump’s home, but in 2016 exonerated Hillary Clinton on her handling of classified materials and her use of a home server without even giving Justice prosecutors a chance to do their lawful duty to determine whether charges should be brought….. the FBI deserves no presumption of innocence.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fbi-the-judiciary-and-trump-11660074004
Blah, blah, blah, apparently the republican hysterics will continue for a few days. Who knew so many could be triggered by the prospect that Trump can actually be treated like the criminal he is. Shocking.
He makes a good point. You didn’t address it. I read the blog and all the comments to see if even one person could explain how this ISN’T an Equal Protections problem with Hillary and her Pakistani server administrators who fled the country.
There is not an equal protection problem – meaning that is not a defense.
But there are a long list of differences.
Presidents are not secretaries of state. President can declassify things.
It is highly unlikely Trump moved anything – that is all handled by the permanent whitehouse staff.
Former presidents homes are NOT ordinary residences. The former president retains their security clearance – though not declassification authority, and the fascilities for handling classified documents properly exist at former presidents homes – not at secretary of states home.
And on and on.
Trump can actually be treated like the criminal he is. Yet you can seem to actually name a crime. Leftist are forced to argue from a conclusion. Because facts don’t support their narrative
My girlfriends and I got together this morning for coffee. We all agreed that as former Trump supporters, we had turned the page to deSantis as we expressed Trump is getting a little long in the tooth. But this raid is just the thing to push us back into his camp. This is outrageous. Garland has proven Mitch McConnell to be very wise. Trump will win even if his name is not on the ballot. Biden’s people should be very worried
Good comment, Janice 🙂
Here’s Ted Cruz’s view:
“Elected officials, now matter how high their position, should be held accountable for criminal conduct. The rule of law matters.”
It sounds like Cruz supports holding Trump accountable if he’s convicted of committing crimes.
The National Archives largely lacks teeth to enforce the Presidential Records Act and instead operates on a “gentlemen’s agreement” with presidential administrations, an official told the Washington Post, which first reported about the Mar-a-Lago records. Legal experts told the newspaper it’s unlikely Trump would be prosecuted for running afoul of the law.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2022/02/07/national-archives-took-15-boxes-of-white-house-records-from-mar-a-lago-which-should-have-never-been-there/?sh=e99d92b647d4
So it’s always operated under a “gentlemen’s agreement. So what changed? Well, since the Archives have been turning over documents to the J6 committee, it’s not a stretch to believe the J6 committee is still looking for their “overwhelming” evidence.
Problem is trump is no gentleman. And he is the first to violate the act as a private citizen.
Let’s not forget that he may be an ex-president, but he’s still a private individual now. And he is still liable for prosecution for stealing classified documents. That has real implications.
Not true. Obama took all his government records and they are currently stored in a warehouse in Chicago, while he awaits a library under his name.!
Not true.
True, and true of all past presidents.
What is not true is that when they left they took ALL the documents that are headed to their presidential library.
I would bet that Biden took classified documents with him when he left as vice president.
Though that actually would be illegal as the VP does not have unilateral declassification/Classification authority.
“ I would bet that Biden took classified documents with him when he left as vice president.”
That’s illegal for ANYONE. The president or VP are not allowed to take those documents.
Your insinuation is just a cheap shot. Trump is in a lot of trouble. He was already taken to task for taking documents that he was NOT allowed to take with him before. Obviously he did not fully comply with the previous order to return all the documents. Given his well known history of destroying documents simply asking was not an option.
No, it is illegal for anyone that is not president.
The entire concept of classified etc does not apply to the president.
The president can access any government information he wants.
He can direct it to be given to anyone he wants.
He can give it to anyone he wants.
He can keep it himself.
He can formally declassify it, or informally declassify it by making it available to himself and others.
This was discussed when Clinton was running for president. Assuming the FBI actually did their job. The president of the united states is the only government job with access to classified information that Hillary Clinton can hold.
Because she can not get a security clearance anymore.
And only the president does not need a security clearance for classified materials.
We also discussed this long ago when Trump purportedly shared Classified Israeli intelligence with Putin.
The president can do that.
“ The entire concept of classified etc does not apply to the president.”.
Trump is NOT the president. When he left office he did not have the authority to keep classified documents in his home. He’s a private citizen.
There’s a specific reason why he’s in trouble right now. Precisely because he’s NOT the president. He has top security clearance so he can continue to receive presidential briefings not keep classified documents. That’s the distinction.
“ We also discussed this long ago when Trump purportedly shared Classified Israeli intelligence with Putin.
The president can do that.”
Yes, when he WAS president.
“” The entire concept of classified etc does not apply to the president.”.
Trump is NOT the president. ”
He was at the time the documents were moved. That is all that matters.
“When he left office he did not have the authority to keep classified documents in his home. He’s a private citizen.”
Both incorrect and false. First he had the unilateral authority to declassify anything.
Assuming – which so far appears NOT to be the case, that Trump personally directed classified documents to be transfered to Mar-A-Lago on J19th or anytime before – those documents are then Declassified.
Some aspects of this should be obvious. The presidents calendar as an example is CLASSIFIED. but no one sane would claim an ex-president is not entitled to his own calendars. If the president kept a personal diary that would be classified.
You are wrong on just about every point regarding the law, and pretty much all the facts.
The homes of ex presidents are NOT ordinary residences. Mar-A-Lago contains a SCIF – I would bet Obama’s and Bushes homes do too.
Do you have any doubt at all that there is classified materials from the Obama and Bush presidencies in their homes ?
I am sure that both Obama and Bush are in possession of their calendars and diaries from their time as president.
But switching to what we are increasingly finding out.
This is NOT about documents that Trump chose to take with him to Mar-A-Lago – If Trump CHOSE to take classified documents they are then defacto declassified.
This is about boxes of documents the GSA gathered from the whitehouse and shipped to Mar-A-Lago near the end of Trump’s presidency.
Again this would be the same GSA that did the same thing when Obama left, and when Bush left.
Subsequently the National Archives claimed that documents that should not have been transfered were. They were given access in Jan 2022 and removed what they wanted.
Subsequently the FBI came to Mar-A-Lago withour a warrant in May 2022 and were given access and took with them the documents they wanted.
All this occured BEFORE this warrant.
As best we can tell though the FBI searched all of Mar-A-Lago what they took with them were boxes fromt he same secured basement room the NA andFBI had been through TWICE before.
Further what is reported that they took were Trump’s correspondence with foreign leaders while he was president.
So the first problem you have is that the documents in question are the former presidents – not the governments.
The next is that if classified they are defacto declassified if removed at the then presidents direction.
The next is that if they were not removed at his direction any violation of the law would be on the GSA not Trump.
Next you have that the documents in question were searched with permission on atleast 2 prior occasions and many were removed by NA and FBI.
Absent Evidence that Trump stuffed documents down his pants while these prior consentual searches took place, you are SOL.
This looks bad and as wer learn more it is near certain to look even worse.
“There’s a specific reason why he’s in trouble right now. Precisely because he’s NOT the president. He has top security clearance so he can continue to receive presidential briefings not keep classified documents. That’s the distinction.”
As is typical left wing nuts do not understand security clearances. There is no security clearance limited to receiving briefings. Security clearances are about access to classified information – whether verbally or in documents. There are special requirements with respect to the handling of Documents. But the presence of a SCIF at Mar-A-Lago is prima fascia evidence that those requirements were being followed.
Regardless, you do not get to make up distinctions from thin air. Distinctions exist in the law.
““ We also discussed this long ago when Trump purportedly shared Classified Israeli intelligence with Putin.
The president can do that.”
Yes, when he WAS president.”
Trump was president in Jan. 19th and before when GSA boxed up the contents of the Whitehouse and transported it to Mar-A-Lago.
I am sure there is video of Trump getting onto Marine one on Jan 20. Is he carrying 15 boxes of Classified material ?
Did he sneak back to the whitehouse on the night of the 20th and grab boxes and stuff them in a van to send to Mar-A-Lago ?
You left wing nuts constantly fail to contemplate any claim you make more than shallowly.
Everything that Trump had at Mar-A-Lago was either moved there while he was president – BY THE GOVERNMENT, not him personally.
Or Moved in the days prior to Biden taking the oath of office.
At the moment Joe Biden was sworn in as President – anything Trump related – including cloths furniture, …. was all out of the whitehouse on the way to Mar-A-Lago. And Biden’s papers, cloths, etc were in the whitehouse.
The GSA and whitehouse permanent staff have been doing this for centuries. The final transfer takes place on innauguration day and takes place in 6hrs. By the moment one president says “I do” the prior president and his thins are Gone from the white house, and the new presidents is in place.
We have never had this stupid claim the left is makeing before.
That is because it is stupid and impossible.
This is even more stupid than the claim of Russian Collusion, or that Putin favored Trump.
Those of you on the left are not only incapable of critical thinking, You are just not capable of thought.
It is “self-evident” that what we are seeing is STUPID political power games.
I would further note that we do not know the basis for the search. But left wing nuts are claiming it is classified documents.
But that claim is really wierd – the National Archives has very little to do with what is classified and what is not.
But the left is also claiming it is the federal records act – not the espionage act.
Right now all we have is uninformed leftist drivel, wishful thinking and self contradictory nonsense.
In otherwords a typical day.
“ But that claim is really wierd – the National Archives has very little to do with what is classified and what is not.
But the left is also claiming it is the federal records act – not the espionage act.”.
The national archives deals with classified documents as well. The left AND the archives are citing the PRESIDENTIAL records act.
The fact that there had to be a raid and reports are that classified documents are involved leaves little room for doubt. Trump already had classified documents removed from his residence before. This just means he still had other classified documents that the archives knew were not turned over.
“The national archives deals with classified documents as well.”
They have absolutely nothing to do with whether a document is classified or not.
They do not decide. They are merely responsible for handling classified documents properly that is all.
“The left AND the archives are citing the PRESIDENTIAL records act.”
The left constantly mis cites and mis applies the law. – What is new.
We can actually read the law.
But there is another way we can get a good idea what the law actually is.
And that is past behavior of those responsible for enforcing it.
This has never happened in the past.
There exists no evidence that Trump snuk into the whitehouse late at night on Jan. 20th and ran off with about 50 cartons of classified documents – which is essentially what is being alleged.
Those of you on the left do not seem to ever think of what else would be required for your ludicrously stupid claims to prove true.
These boxes of documents that are allegedly classified, and are allegedly not allowed to be in Trump’s possession did not levitate themselves from the whitehouse to Mar-A-Lago.
If Trump directed their transport to Mar-A-Lago while president – they are defacto declassified.
If he did not – then if there is any crime at all, it was committed by the GSA.
“he fact that there had to be a raid and reports are that classified documents are involved leaves little room for doubt. Trump already had classified documents removed from his residence before. This just means he still had other classified documents that the archives knew were not turned over.”
Nope. You continue to echo the same stupid allegations.
There are only 3 ways classified documents get to Mar-A-Lago.
1). As the normal conduct of Trump’s presidency.
In that instance the FSO at Mar-A-Lago – a govenrment employee would have been responsible for them. He would have been responsible for removing them from the Scif at Mar-A-Lago and providing them to whoever was permitted to access them.
If documents that were not allowed to remain at Mar-A-Lago were present on Jan 21, 2021, then the FSO responsible for the SCIF at mar-a-lago would be responsible to remove them,
Actual classified documents are tracked thoughout the government by FSO’s. In most instances a SCIF is a secure room for storing classified documements. But for Some cabinet ranked people – and the President. Large portions of their workspace are designated as a SCIF.
Much of the whitehouse is considered a SCIF, that allows clasified documents to move within the whitehouse easily, but you may not bring cell phones or recording devices into the parts that are, and you may not have computers with USB ports or connected to the internet within the SCIF portions.
With the Clinton debacle we learned that an entire floor of the state department is a SCIF. It has secure computers, and no personal electronic devices are allowed on that floor and that staff are searched on the way in and out of that floor.
That is how SCIF’s work. It has been 20 years since I had my top secret clearance. But it is my recollection that classified documents can only rarely be removed from a SCIF, and that when they are the cleared person must sign for them, is only allowed to posses them in specific places and must keep them locked up when not in use. Again this is why at a cabinet level – large portions of these fascilities are a SCIF – while as a private contractor – a SCIF is a specific room.
Regardless, my point is that you have little idea how classified documents are handled.
One of the reasons that the Clinton debacle was so egregious is that we KNOW that she and her staff REMOVED highly classified documents from the State Department SCIF. That they either smuggled cell phones in, or brought up classified information on secure terminals and copied it onto paper by hand.
You do not have that here.
You have one of two things – either the DOJ/FBI/NA are claiming that things are classified that are not.
Or they are claiming that GSA or other govenrment employees accidentally (or deliberately) transported classified Documents to Mar-A-Lago without proper authorization, because if Trump authorized their removal while president – they are no longer classified.
I will be happy to Fit Trump for an orange Jumpsuit myself – if you prove a case here.
But the burden to do so is impossibly high. To get where you wish to go, you have to have Trump personally remove or direct the removal of classified documents AFTER Joe Biden took the oath of Office.
If Trump directed the removal of classified documents while president – they are now declassified.
If others removed them – then at the very best you have a violation of the law by GSA.
You are pushing another Stupid poorly thought out left wing nut claim that is logically nearly impossible.
I would note that I addressed all of this in the context of the Clinton classifed mess years ago.
At that time there was an allegation by some on the right that Clinton was being protected because President Obama had done the same thing.
As an example Pres. Obama had a secret email which he used to communicate with people – sometimes sending classified information over the internet much as Clinton had done.
At that time I noted there was a giant gulf between Clinton and Obama. Obama as president can do whatever he wants with classified material.
None of the laws regarding the handling of classified information apply to the president, as the president has sole and even defacto authority to declassify anything. If the president makes a msitake handling classified information – that does not violate the law. While if the Sec. State does exactlyt he same thing – it does.
Just about the only doument handling violation you can get the President on is Treason.
That is it. ‘
Obama may have been embarrassed to have his conduct with private email accounts exposed. But he faced ZERO criminal or legal risk.
Exactly the same is true of Trump. If he accidentally or deliberately sent classified material to Mar-A-Lago while president – it is now declassified.
The only way classified material can get to Mar-A-Lago and remain classified is if the GSA sent it there WITHOUT presidential direction.
That is of course ignoring th assinine possibility that Trump personally snuk into the white-house on the 21st and ran off with boxes of information.
“Your insinuation is just a cheap shot.”
No it is near certain true.
“Trump is in a lot of trouble.”
We here that from those like you everyday.
How has that worked out for you ?
“He was already taken to task for taking documents that he was NOT allowed to take with him before.”
So many false assumptions.
He was in a dispute with the National Archives.
One the NA was likely wrong about.
Regardless, he gave them what they asked for 8 months ago.
There is no “take with him” -= First Mar-A-Lago was functioning as the office of the president many times.
It has a scif. it still has secret service. It likely has an RSO even now, Trump still remains cleared for pretty much anything – though he can no longer declassify documents.
It is near certain that massive amounts of records were there on J20, 2021 – because those in govenrment brought them. Do you think that All government documents are sent somewhere else the moment the president leaves his home ?
Do you thinkl Trump personally carries boxes of documents all over with him ? The documents at Mar-A-lago are either:
Government documents brought their by the government.
Or presidential papers – the work product of the trump whitehouse which belong to Trump.
Do you have video of Trump carrying 15 boxes out of the basement of the whitehouse on J19th ?
Permanent government staff handles much of this.
“Obviously he did not fully comply with the previous order to return all the documents. Given his well known history of destroying documents simply asking was not an option.”
Even your “destroying” argument is nonsense.
Again – whitehouse papers are his – to destroy or do with as he pleases.
In the even there are non-whitehouse documents – “destroying them” is perfectly reasonable. They are not originals.
And according to Eric Trump who was at Mar-A-Lago – the FBI took boxes of newspaper clippings
“ Your insinuation is just a cheap shot.”
No it is near certain true.”
“Near certain” is not certain. It either is or is not. It’s still a cheap shot.
“ Trump is in a lot of trouble.”
We here that from those like you everyday.
How has that worked out for you ?”
It’s still true. Just look at the panicked reaction and the hysteria from the right.
Trump has multiple problems all happening at different times. Just like Alex Jones, it’s all bound to coalesce into a series of indictments. It’s only a matter of time.
“ He was already taken to task for taking documents that he was NOT allowed to take with him before.”
So many false assumptions.
He was in a dispute with the National Archives.
One the NA was likely wrong about.
Regardless, he gave them what they asked for 8 months ago.”
The archives have very detailed records of what the White House had because the presidential records act requires every document be recorded. They KNEW exactly what was missing.
He gave them what he was not supposed to have and apparently he didn’t give them everything.
“ There is no “take with him” -= First Mar-A-Lago was functioning as the office of the president many times.”
This was AFTER he left office meaning he was no longer the president. The key word here “WAS” means Trump had illegal possession of those records. His personal records are his to keep. Those of his work as president are not.
“ Again – whitehouse papers are his – to destroy or do with as he pleases.”
Wrong. He’s not allowed to destroy those documents by LAW. That’s why this is an issue. White House staff have warned Trump while he was in office that he cannot destroy those documents. He may have been president, but he’s not allowed to destroy documents by law.
“ Even your “destroying” argument is nonsense.”. He was destroying documents. He had a well known habit of tearing up documents. Staff had to tape them back together because what he was doing was illegal.
“ In the even there are non-whitehouse documents – “destroying them” is perfectly reasonable. They are not originals.”.
They were originals. Because if they were copies the archives would have had the originals. Obviously they didn’t which is exactly why they were asking Trump to return them. He was not allowed to keep them according to the law. Only personal records he can keep not work related documents.
“ And according to Eric Trump who was at Mar-A-Lago – the FBI took boxes of newspaper clippings”
Eric Trump is an idiot. He wasn’t there to witness the raid. None of the Trump family was there. How would he know what was in those boxes? Did he personally pack them? Not likely.
““ Your insinuation is just a cheap shot.”
No it is near certain true.”
“Near certain” is not certain.”
Correct. But it is good enough for a criminal conviction in a court of law.
Proof of guilt does not require certainty – only lack of reasonable doubt.
“It either is or is not. It’s still a cheap shot.””
False and false, and obviously so.
“” Trump is in a lot of trouble.”
We here that from those like you everyday.
How has that worked out for you ?”
It’s still true. Just look at the panicked reaction and the hysteria from the right.”
The right is justifiably hysterical – the left is obviously lawless and that is very dangerous.
“Trump has multiple problems all happening at different times. Just like Alex Jones, it’s all bound to coalesce into a series of indictments. It’s only a matter of time.”
We have heard that for nearly a decade. It is old and tired. No one is waiting with baited breath – except the few remaining far left wing nuts.
“” He was already taken to task for taking documents that he was NOT allowed to take with him before.”
So many false assumptions.
He was in a dispute with the National Archives.
One the NA was likely wrong about.
Regardless, he gave them what they asked for 8 months ago.
“The archives have very detailed records of what the White House had because the presidential records act requires every document be recorded. They KNEW exactly what was missing.”
Such a stupid claim. First as YOU presented it – that would be proof that there is no there there.
The NA was to Mar-A-Lago multiple times. They collected documents that are not likely theirs before.
The FBI was previously at Mar-A-Lago and searched and removed documents.
Part of this is the source of your false claim that Trump had previous problems, He did not. Either the documents belong to him – as truckloads of white-house documents do, or they were inadvertently transported to Mar-A-Lago by the GSA.
Regardless, if Trump directed them to be transported to Mar-A-Lago prior to Jan 21, they are declassified, by virtue of Trump directing their removal.
“He gave them what he was not supposed to have and apparently he didn’t give them everything.
“ There is no “take with him” -= First Mar-A-Lago was functioning as the office of the president many times.”
This was AFTER he left office meaning he was no longer the president. The key word here “WAS” means Trump had illegal possession of those records. His personal records are his to keep. Those of his work as president are not.
“ Again – whitehouse papers are his – to destroy or do with as he pleases.”
Wrong. He’s not allowed to destroy those documents by LAW. That’s why this is an issue. White House staff have warned Trump while he was in office that he cannot destroy those documents. He may have been president, but he’s not allowed to destroy documents by law.”
Wrong, he is.
And you think idiots telling the president what he can and can not do as president and getting ignored is consequential ?
Neither you, nor they get to make up the law. Most of the laws you cite are quite simple and do not say any of what you claim they do.
“ Even your “destroying” argument is nonsense.”. He was destroying documents. He had a well known habit of tearing up documents. Staff had to tape them back together because what he was doing was illegal.”
So you say. Regardless, not only can the president destroy documents, but lots of people throughout government can and do destroy documents all the time. Grassley and Johnson just told DOJ to preserve documents with respect to this incident. If it was illegal t “destroy documents” – they never would have needed to say that. What is illegal is destroying evidence.
““ In the even there are non-whitehouse documents – “destroying them” is perfectly reasonable. They are not originals.”.
They were originals.”
Because you say so ?
“Because if they were copies the archives would have had the originals. ”
Not how government works. The NA does not get copied on absolutely everything done within government. the Govenrment produces massive amounts of documents every day. Only a small portion of that ends up in the NA.
“Obviously they didn’t which is exactly why they were asking Trump to return them. He was not allowed to keep them according to the law. Only personal records he can keep not work related documents.”
You constantrly make these stupid assumptions. It is pretty clear you have never managed any office anywhere ever.
You are aware that every single desk in every office everywhere in the country even in government there is a trash can.
What do you think goes in trash cans ? Snickers wrappers ?
““ And according to Eric Trump who was at Mar-A-Lago – the FBI took boxes of newspaper clippings”
Eric Trump is an idiot. He wasn’t there to witness the raid. None of the Trump family was there. How would he know what was in those boxes? Did he personally pack them? Not likely.”
False, false, false, false, false.
Eric Trump was onsite at the time. He is obviously not an idiot. Why do you presume he does NOT know what is in the boxes ?
He may have packed them, or he just may know what is in various boxes having seen them many times, and he may know which boxes are missing.
Regardless, he is the witness that currently exists. YOU are not, and he FBI and DOJ are not speeking yet.
JW and others have filed FOIA requests for the Warrant. The Same judge that issued the Warrant has given DOJ/FBI less than a week to respond.
And required that even if they respond under seal they MUST provide a redacted response to the public.
Many people have responed aghast to this – including many democrats. Even those who MIGHT ultimately be supportive have said that DOJ/FBI MUST make a PUBLIC case justifying this – that they appear to have crossed lines and MUST show that they did not.
Stamp out the Mary Jane. Wrong, as m points out. And whose bidding do you think Sandy Berger was doing?
Would the FBI and DOJ be above manufacturing evidence of criminality from this raid? Add that to a DC jury, and what do you get?
I felt better when J. Edger Hoover ran the FBI. No politician could control him.
Just defund the FBI, the DOJ and the IRS in 2023.
The GOP will control the house and the house controls the purse.
Et tu John? I”m surprised you are joining they hysteria that republicans are engaging in.
Defund the FBI? For what? Doing their job? I thought Republicans were big supporters of law enforcement. Now that they do something that was completely legal, but it involved Trump it’s suddenly an unforgivable sin of some sort? Seriously?
I guess you now understand why BLM wanted to defund the police. Now you support that idea only because it involves a legal search warrant on Trump’s property.
AGAIN, I am not a republican. I am a libertarian.
I am not following GOP talking points – The GOP is slowly becoming more libertarian – as the the Government is increasingly politicized and their enemy. Regardless, I welcome the GOP to MY views.
Please read my many comments over years.
I have NEVER EVER been a fan of the FBI.
One of my legal hero’s is Gerry Spence – who defended and won Randy Witmer’s case related to Ruby Ridge – where the FBI illegally murdered his family.
At Wacco – they did better and murdered everyone – so that no one could sue them and embarrass them after.
Have you heard of Richard Jewel ?
What about the Church Commission ?
I have also been a big fan of Alan Derschowitz and other civil libertarian lawyers.
I was a member of the ACLU until they started becoming the agents of censorship rather than the lead opponents.
I am a strong supporter of Fire – which was started by liberals.
The GOP is slowly becoming nuts. Not libertarian.
You may not be following GOP talking points. But you are certainly following their hysterics and triggered insanity over a legal process that Trump brought onto himself when he didn’t turn over all the document he was required to.
You may not like the FBI, but they ARE law enforcement and just because they have had a few issues in the past just like local police has had in decades doesn’t mean they are all bad,
Remember BLM called for defunding the police precisely because of those bad actions by police. Here you are doing exactly the same thing because the FBI in the past has done some awful stuff. You mocked them for wanting to defund the police, but here you are demanding the same thing. Maybe you would be more emphatic about BLM’s demands to defund the police because you agree with the idea just because you don’t like some aspects of the FBI. That’s pretty ironic.
“The GOP is slowly becoming nuts.”
Not a tiny franction as much as democrats.
“Not libertarian.” Absolutely – neocons like chenney have been disempowered.
“You may not be following GOP talking points. But you are certainly following their hysterics and triggered insanity over a legal process that Trump brought onto himself when he didn’t turn over all the document he was required to.”
The GOP talking points are based on the constitution – my views are mirroring theirs – because they share the same source.
And you confuse a claim about a claim with a fact.
The fact is we do not know what DOJ claimed to get a search warrant yet.
Only what some people say they did.
When we know that – it is a Claim not a fact. Ultimately they will be obligated to prove it, and the burden will be on them.
“You may not like the FBI, but they ARE law enforcement and just because they have had a few issues in the past just like local police has had in decades doesn’t mean they are all bad,”
They have had far more than a few. On nearly every issue that has achieved national attention regarding the FBI in my lifetime the FBI has failed badly. Republicans are claiming a few bad apples – I have been claiming a corrupt institution for decades.
“Remember BLM called for defunding the police precisely because of those bad actions by police.”
BLM is idiotic black marxists that were briefly and stupidly popular.
I have plenty of issues with policing. BLM is wrong about the problems, and wrong about the solutions and the results have been higher crime. higher violence.
“Here you are doing exactly the same thing because the FBI in the past has done some awful stuff.”
Not expactly the same thing.
The police have a legitimate constitutional basis for existing. The FBI does not.
We need the police. We do not need the FBI – and we do not need BLM.
I would further note – that though I would see lots of reforms to policing. Given a choice between the way things were in policing in 2019 and what we have now – I am most of the country would pick 2019
I want reforms – not mostly the same ones as BLM. But only if they improve policing and do not increase violence.
The fact that I want police reform does not mean I share anything with BLM which as we are learning painfully was idiotic and marxist, and has made things worse.
.
“You mocked them for wanting to defund the police”
I mocked them for being wrong and stupid.
“but here you are demanding the same thing.”
Nope. I do not want to defund the police.
I want more police. I wan an end to stupid criminal prosecutions of police for errors rather than crimes.
And I want it easier to fire police or sue police for errors.
The FBI are not the police. The few legitimate jobs of the FBI could be delegated elsewhere.
We had NO FBI for over 100 years.
“Maybe you would be more emphatic about BLM’s demands to defund the police”
Not at all BLM seeks to fix the wrong problem in the wrong way.
“because you agree with the idea”
No i do not agree with the idea.
The FBI is a completely different entity.
We need actual enforcement of local laws – the laws against murder, rape, fraud.
We do not need the FBI.
” just because you don’t like some aspects of the FBI.”
There is very little about the FBI I do like – and more important that is constitutional.
“That’s pretty ironic.”
You do not understand what Irony is.
And I am going to defund muc more of the federal government than the IRS.
The FBI has little or no constitutional legitimate job.
There is no federal general police power.
With few tiny exceptions all law enforcement rests with the states.
And just ot be clear – because you either can not read or can not remember – while I do NOT want ot defund the police – I want more police not less. At the same time – I want bright lines for the conduct of police, I want to end the idiotic court created doctrine of qualified immunity. I am not a big fan of these stupid witch trials of police officers. But I am absolutely a fan of FIRING police (and teachers) easly when they fail to do their jobs or abuse their authority.
On many many issues I share the values of what used to be called liberals. Where we part ways is on the means.
They think more govenrment is the answer to the problems we agree on. I know the answer is less.
“ The FBI has little or no constitutional legitimate job.”
Neither does the police. The constitution makes no provision for any law enforcement. Only militias are mentioned.
When the police abuse their authority the FBI has authority thru congress. The constitution grants congress the authority to delegate powers and the FBI is one of them. The DOJ ensures that the states don’t violate citizens constitutional rights. This is how the 14th amendment was enforced when states refused to adhere to the constitution. They do have a purpose just as the police do.
The constitution defines the powers of the federal government.
With a few rare exceptions NOT those of the states.
Regardless, the state DO have general police powers.
That is why striking Roe returns the issue to the states, rather than just blanket making abortion illegal.
That is why States could lockdown or mandate masks, but the federal govenrment could only recomend.
Militias have nothing to do with police powers.
“When the police abuse their authority the FBI has authority thru congress”
Not legitimately.
“The constitution grants congress the authority to delegate powers and the FBI is one of them.”
False and false. There is no provision in the constitution that allows congress to manufacture a power not enumerated in the constitution.
And no power to delegate. The executive has the power to enforce constitutional laws. It does not have the power to make laws, or enforce unconstitutional ones.
“The DOJ ensures that the states don’t violate citizens constitutional rights.”
Nope. Citizens have the right to sue government when their rights are violated – in federal court.
“This is how the 14th amendment was enforced when states refused to adhere to the constitution.”
Nope. Prior to the 14th amendment only those portions of the constitution explicitly referencing the states applied to the states. They were not refusing. The constitution just mostly did not apply. After the 14th amendment, states were barred from restricting the same privileges and immunites that the federal govenrment had previously be barred from infringing on.
The courts have understood that to mean “the bill of rights applies to the states”.
The federal courts enforce that. Private citizens are fee to make claims.
“They do have a purpose just as the police do.” Not much of a legitimate one.
FBI are not the same as police. AGAIN there is no federal general police power.
“ The courts have understood that to mean “the bill of rights applies to the states”.
The federal courts enforce that.”
No. The courts interpret law only. The executive enforces the law. Who enforces federal law? The FBI. Who created the FBI? Congress, because congress has the power to create laws. The FBI id certainly legitimate.
Bizarre and wrong.
The constitution specifies the powers of the federal government,
There is no general police power.
This is settled constitutional law.
Congress can not do whatever it pleases. not can FBI.
Do you actually read your own arguments ?
Do you think about them at all ?
You just finished impeaching Trump for asking for an investigation of a political rival.
And you are now defending Biden for doing what you said Trump could not ?
I have noted repeatedly that you are in capable of critical thinking.
It is obvious you are barely capable of the most shallow thinking.
Some of us actually think the rule of law is important.
I am not concerned about Trump here.
It will have little consequence whether you “get him” or not. Though it is extremely unlikely that you will get what you want.
There is already ample evidence this has harmed you.
And I am very thankful that so many – including democrats grasp that this is likely an enormous mistake.
But I am concerned about the future. Lets presume as is likely – that you do not “Get Trump”.
Lets presume as is also likely that Trump is elected in 2024.
After he has cleaned house at DOJ and FBI can he start the same nonsense that you have been engaged in ?
Can He sick the DOJ/FBI on teachers that are trying to indoctrinate children as pedophiles ?
Can he sick the DOJ/FBI on Biden and Obama ? The rest of Democratic leadership ?
You do not seem to grasp that you are normalizing very bad conduct on the part of FBI/DOJ
“I thought Republicans were big supporters of law enforcement.”
They were. They are learning not to trust law enforcement – particularly federal.
I am not republican. I am not new to this debate – Republicans are.
BTW I do support and value law enforcement – I would have more police. But I would also hold them more accountable – i.e. I would fire them more easily.
No DOJ and FBI did not do their job.
They have not been doing their job for a long long time.
“ I thought Republicans were big supporters of law enforcement.”
They were. They are learning not to trust law enforcement – particularly federal.”
They are only supportive when they are not the ones being scrutinized. But when they are the ones being scrutinized suddenly they are not very fond of law enforcement. They don’t like to be reminded of the fact that they too are not above the law. This is about realizing that they too are not immune from the law if they are being lawless. They don’t trust law enforcement when they KNOW they are the NOT above the law. That sense of privilege gives them a false sense of security. Take it away and they are now demanding the FBI be defunded. It’s hypocritical.
“They are only supportive when they are not the ones being scrutinized”
Goof point – too bad you do not understand what you said.
The constitution – parts that apply to the federal and state government, do not allow law enforcement to “scrutinize” because it feels like it.
scrutiny by law enforcemnt requires reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed and reasonable suspicion those who are scritined committed it.
But a search or seizure requires probable case for both of those. You have neither.
Are republicans hypocritical ? Maybe. I am not.
I would note that Republicans are threatening the FBI with scrutiny – not defunding.
You seem to like scrutiny. Congress can “scrurtinize” the government for any reason or none at all.
Government must meat the standards of the 4th and 5th amendment to scrutinize anyone.
Defunding the FBI and DOJ and IRS is MY suggestion. Fully consistent with my positions over decades.
But it is also a legitimate means for the House to secure cooperation and information from DOJ and FBI, who are certain to stonewall as they did over the collusion delusion.
This is just the new leftist delusion.
“ I would note that Republicans are threatening the FBI with scrutiny – not defunding.”
They are threatening defunding. MTG is leading that cause.
MTG is not a republican leader.
Regardless, it is highly likely that when DOJ/FBI refuse for to cooperate with investigations that the house will cut funding.
That is one of the tools that the house has to force the executive to comply.
Frankly we need an accross the board 30% cut in federal spending.
“I guess you now understand why BLM wanted to defund the police. Now you support that idea only because it involves a legal search warrant on Trump’s property.”
Not at all. I want more police – just as most minorities do.
I want an end to federal mucking with state and local police.
Further BLM is the johny come lately. Libertarians have been arguing these things for decades.
Here is an excellent book that reflects many of my views on policing.
Radley Balko is a libertarian and this was written BEFORE BLM existed.
https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610394577
You detest the FBI because you believe they are heavy handed and have made horrible decisions and destroyed lives.
BLM has the same complaints about the police. You demand the FBI be defunded precisely for the same reasons BLM wants to defund the police. They too have been heavy handed and made horrible decisions and destroyed lives. There really is no distinction between the two. You are in effect in agreement with the sentiments BLM has regarding law enforcement.
Please stop trying to read my mind or emotions.
Do not put words into my mouth.
The FBI is illegitimate and corrupt. It has been that way for a long time.
This is not about emotions.
The police are legitimate and far less corrupt than 60 years ago.
The FBI needs shrunk or eliminated. The police need reforms. Almost none of which were what BLM sought.
“ The FBI is illegitimate and corrupt. It has been that way for a long time.
This is not about emotions.”
Oh but it is about emotions. Yours. Which are obvious. You pointed out about how you’ve felt about the FBI since the 60’s. There’s no mind reading going on. You’re saying exactly what’s in your mind.
“ The police are legitimate and far less corrupt than 60 years ago.”
The police is just as illegitimate as the FBI and far more corrupt. The whole reason why police reforms are being enacted now is precisely because of the increasing corruption and lack of accountability. You’re deluding yourself in thinking they are less corrupt now.
“Oh but it is about emotions.”
Only for those on the left.
“You pointed out about how you’ve felt about the FBI since the 60’s. ”
I pointed out FACTS that since the 60’s (and long before) there are myriads of examples of massive FBI failure.
That is not an emotion.
You are making stupid leftist arguments.
It is not surprising – everything is emotion for you.
Sorry, NO!
The FBI has failed, over and over.
It has little constitutionally legitimate purpose, and that can easily be delegated to other parts of government.
It has repeatedly engaged in bad conduct.
ACTS, not emotions.
“There’s no mind reading going on. You’re saying exactly what’s in your mind.”
Absolutely. The FBI has failed. Lets end it now, before it gets worse.
FACTS.
““ The police are legitimate and far less corrupt than 60 years ago.”
The police is just as illegitimate as the FBI and far more corrupt.”
Nope,
“The whole reason why police reforms are being enacted now is precisely because of the increasing corruption and lack of accountability.”
There is no meaningful police reform being enacted now. What has bee enacted in 2020 was ham handed and has failed miserably.
Those of you on the left BLEW an oportunity for meaningful reform and have created the circumstances that will make all the existing problems WORSE.
Instead of ending federal money to local police – which is a corrupting force, it is being increased.
Local police and local communities and cities need to address their own policing problems themselves.
It is blatantly obvious that what problems there are are NOT uniform throughout the country.
That many places do well and others do poorly.
The Defund the police movement was blatantly stupid – but one thing it did get right, was that communities must address their own problems.
NOT the federal government.
Regardless, Left wing nuts have likely destroyed any hope of meaningful police reform – possibly for atleast a decade.
Rising violent crime has changed peoples priorities regarding policing.
Police reform is something that is possible when crime is low and dropping.
When it is rising – what you will see is actions that increase police power.
“You’re deluding yourself in thinking they are less corrupt now.”
Not at all. If you wish to understand police corruption in the 60’s go read Seripco – or any of myriads of other expose’s of the time.
You must be a child. You do not speak of the past as someone who actually experienced it.
You do not know what you are talking about.
The odds of the search warrant being legal are about Zero.
There is a reason that prominent republicans are demanding to see it.
I would note that our founders had a very narrow view of search warrants.
They were not something law enforcement was supposed to be able to easily get.
You are free to attack me all you wish.
But you make a fool when you assume that my views are republican when I have told you over and over and over I am a libertarian.
Trump is not a libertarian. He is not even close to a libertarian.
But he is the most libertarain president since Reagan and Carter.
He does not have my support, I did not vote for him. But he is the lessor evil compared to democrats or the left.
The good news is that republicans are slowly becoming more libertarian, just as democrats and the media are becoming more marxist.
“ The odds of the search warrant being legal are about Zero.
There is a reason that prominent republicans are demanding to see it.”
Hope you don’t gamble because your betting skills seem pretty bad.
The warrant was legal. It was signed by a trump appointed judge. It was not only vetted thru him, but also Merrick Garland, and FBI director Wrey. Obviously they had ironclad reasoning to do what they did given the major implications they knew it would create.
Yes you are NOT a republican, BUT you certainly act like one at times.
Republicans are slowly becoming the authoritarians they say the detest. That is not libertarian.
The FISA warrants went through an even more rigorus process – they were obviously illegal.
The entire Special Counsel appointment and every warrant issued went through your rigorous process – but they were all illegal.
Because the foundation of the investigation – the Steele Dossier was a hoax AND the FBI and DOJ knew it.
You are hiding from the incredible magnitude of the misconduct.
This is not just about Hillary spreading some knowingly false gossip about Trump.
That is just a political dirty trick.
The real problem is that the FBI and DOJ KNOWINGLY used a hoax to investigate others, seek warrants, and prosecute people.
Significant portions of he upper tier of the FBI and DOJ were part of this. Many of those people are still part of the DOJ/FBI and in important positions.
Nor did this stop with the collusion delusion.
The FBI setup Two GOP senators – much as Comey did Trump relatively recent on Hunter Biden.
Agents at the FBI have been actively interfering and trying to close a legitimate investigation into the bidens.
Concurrently we have a gaggle of FBI agents and informers who essentially concocted the Whitmer Kidnapping plan and then duped 4 nearly homeless guys into taking the fall.
It is virtually certain that the FBI was involved in J6, but it refuses to come clean.
The same FBI/DOJ/WH duped the NASBO into sending a bogus letter providing a false claim that parents of kids objecting to idiotic and racist curicula being inflicted on their kids were domestic terrorists. And then DOJ used that to direct the FBI to go after parents.
And on and on – and you expect anyone to buy this ?
You run on about Defunding the FBI/DOJ.
Either it gets killed entirely – or a house cleaning down to bare metal takes place and rigid rules with teeth that end the politicization are put in place.
Let me remind you that YOU and Your ilk impeached Trump for far less than this.
You think this warrant is “proper” – then PROVE IT. When people have lost trust, they are obligated to PROVE EVERYTING.
PROVE IT, and when it turns out this is just another political dirty trick by the DOJ/FBI we clean house.
Everyone wbho touched this – gone. Impeached or resigns.
“ The real problem is that the FBI and DOJ KNOWINGLY used a hoax to investigate others, seek warrants, and prosecute people.”
That allegation is based only on opinion, not facts. You’re too biased to accept any reasonable explanation. That much is clear.
“ You think this warrant is “proper” – then PROVE IT.”
Give it some time. When it becomes public we will know. Ironically Trump’s lawyer has a copy that she’s free to divulge. Why isn’t she? Could it be because it contains damning information? We don’t know. So it’s best to wait and see if it is indeed what you claim.
“ Let me remind you that YOU and Your ilk impeached Trump for far less than this.”
Lol! I certainly didn’t impeach Trump. But I know what you mean.
Trump had a host of problems for sure. Just like Alex Jones. He’s already going to jail for perjury. It’s just a matter of time.
“That allegation is based only on opinion, not facts.”
Not an allegation – a FACT.
The CIA analysed the Alpha Bank data and found that it was human manipulated (a Hoax) and that it did not support the claims being made (a Hoax).
The Steele Dossier was created from Glenn Simpson’s newpaper clippings and Igor Danchenko’s gathering of gossip from sources inside the DNC.
There are no primary sources for anything in the Steele Dossier. There are no first person reports of anything. there are no actual russian soruces,
The entire thing is made up – a HOAX. All of this has been well established.
Further it has been established that the FBI KNEW this – with absolutely certainty by Jan 2017 when they interviewed Danchenko, and with near certainty in September when they accepted it in the first place.
” You’re too biased to accept any reasonable explanation. That much is clear.”
We do not need “reasonable explanations” – we have FACTS.
“Give it some time. When it becomes public we will know.”
How well has that worked for you so far ?
Is this the first time we have heard “Trump is headed to jail” ?
Is it the 10th ? The hundredth ?
“Wolf, Wolf, Wolf !”
“Ironically Trump’s lawyer has a copy that she’s free to divulge. Why isn’t she?”
False, she has already said she was not provided a copy of the warrant and was not given a chance to even read it.
“Could it be because it contains damning information? We don’t know. So it’s best to wait and see if it is indeed what you claim.”
Given that the FBI refused to provide it, it is near certain the reverse it true.
““ Let me remind you that YOU and Your ilk impeached Trump for far less than this.”
Lol! I certainly didn’t impeach Trump. But I know what you mean.”
Correct – you know exactly what I mean. And yet you still do not understand.
The left – including YOU is engaged in exactly the egregious conduct (or steriods) you accused Trump of.
With notable differences. Only a moron would deny there was probable cause to investigate the Biden’s in 2020.
At this moment you have GUESSES – speculation, Trust in an untrustworthy FBI/DOJ to support your claim that investigating Trump is legitimate.
Regardless, YOU set the standard. A sitting president can be impeached for investigating a political rival – even where there is probable cause to conduct that investigation.
That is YOUR standard – not mine.
You were warned when you started this nonsense that it would end badly.
I expect that the GOP house in 2023 will regularly impeach Biden, and that the Senate will be tied up for two years holding impeachment trials.
Turn about is fair play.
It is likely the only way those of you on the left will learn the stupidity of your nonsense.
“Trump had a host of problems for sure.”
We have heard that before.
“Just like Alex Jones. He’s already going to jail for perjury. It’s just a matter of time.”
I could care less about Jones.
He is primarily useful as a foil to demonstrate that the MSM is as bat$hit crazy as he is.
As to Jone’s purported problems – I would be happy to bet you those go away.
The legal problems with the recent case are enormous.
Frankly I can no see how it got to trial. The statute of limitations on defamation is long past.
The plantiffs are not from TX, and the whole trial violated TX law in many many ways.
This was all political theater.
I could care less if Jones is destroyed. But it is more likely that he comes out of this STRONGER,
as all of what you are hoping for fails.
When this nonsense is flushed by appeals courts – Jones’s supporters are going to rightly take that as proof of the corruption of the left,
and wrongly of Jones’s virtue.
But this is a common problem for the left. A long record of Pyrrhic victories.
All you do is make the case for removing leftist judges from the courts.
“It was signed by a trump appointed judge.”
That is false.
The president does *not* appoint magistrate judges.
And for the record: Judge Bruce Reinhart is an Obama supporter.
No, I have had problems with the FBI since the 60’s.
At best we need 10% of the FBI – possibly less.
They have always been corrupt. They are just corrupt in a different way today.
As to Defunding – I would really like to eliminate or radically reduce the FBI – they have little or no legitimate constitutional purpose.
But defunding vast swaths of the Biden administration is inside of the power of a GOP controlled house of representatives.
It is the means that the GOP has of putting teeth to their investigations.
The GOP is always talk and no action. When it comes to governing they always end up in failure.
Which is why in less than 2 years Biden had made Trump look like the best president in 200 years.
Biden has even managed to make Trump look good on Covid.
What is it that you think has improved with Biden ?
We have two increasingly hostile nuclear powers rattling sabers – something that has NEVER happened before.
My kids have fears that we all thought ended 30 years ago.
Inflation is the highest it has been in 50 years.
Our deficts are gargantuan, or debt at levels never before seen.
Gas is now just high, instead of record setting highs.
Jobs are faltering.
Foreign nations have zero respect for the doddering fool leading the country.
Our friends an enemies neither fear nor respect us.
Military recruitment is down 40% – there are whispers of having to bring back the draft.
Drugs and drug overdoses are at records,
The nation is in a growing epidemic of violence.
Illegal immigration is so bad even deep blue mayors are begging for help.
Debicrats just voted to further destroy small business.
And that is the tip of the iceberg.
If Trump and Republicans were failure – “Please Sir, Can I have more ?”
Again – not republican.
I will agree that most republicans are all talk and no action on myriads of issues that I care about.
Democrats either do not talk about those issues or actively seek to do the WRONG thing.
Put a gun to my head and tell me my only choices are republicans or democrats – and I will chose republicans.
Whatever their problems, they are less dangerous.
But you can slander and malign most republicans for failing o live up to their promises- and I will wholeheartedly agree.
I chuckle at you “legal search warrant claim”.
Today, my wife won a supression appeal.
The FBI got 4 illegal warrants against Trump before – why do you think anything has changed ?
Increasingly democrats are using the “nacht und nebel” tactics of the Gestapo.
Can you prove that the warrant was illegal? Just because previous warrants were allegedly illegal is not proof that this one is.
Why don’t we wait and see what the warrant actually says before making such claims?
So far it is legal until it is proven not to be.
“Can you prove that the warrant was illegal? Just because previous warrants were allegedly illegal is not proof that this one is.”
Previous warrants were not “allegedly” illegal” – they were absolutely illegal. They contained falsified documents, and completely lies and fabrications.
Nor is it my duty to prove a warrant is legal. It is the FBI/DOJ’s to prove it is legal. We have a problem – far beyond just the recent politically motivated bad warrants that courts rubber stamp warrant applications. That is true of FISA warrants, other federal warrants and state warrants.
When law enforcement lies – and yes it has been proven that many warrants – like the Cater Page warrant contain lies – in some cases nothing BUT lies, and the courts do nothing – that is a serious problem and it undermines the trust in our institutions.
The left is paying for that right now.
“Why don’t we wait and see what the warrant actually says before making such claims?”
Your “wait and see” attitude – different from your normal reaction to this political BS, reflect the fact that past bad conduct by DOJ/FBI the left has undermined YOUR trust.
We are slowly learning more – most of it is still “hearsay” – we do not have the actual warrant yet.
The NA has been to Ma-A-Lago several times. In January many boxes were taken by them.
In May the FBI came to Mar-A-Lago and searched for documents without a warrant and with permission of Trump’s attorney’s.
They searched the same places they did yesterday and they took 15 Boxes of material.
Yesterday they came with a warrant and searched mostly the same places as before. Trump’s attorney has said that the warrant was for classified material. They searched Melania’s dress closet, broke into Trump safe. Trump’s attorney’s were not permitted to observe the search so there is no way to tell if the FBI planted evidence. That was a huge mistake on the FBI’s part. Allowing Trump’s attorney’s to observe would have done no harm and protected them from such claims.
People are angry about this. It appears highly likely to have effected Tuesday’s elections. Trump endorsed candidates won come from behind victories in several places they were not expected to – including Connecticutt.
Regardless, the FBI seized another 15 boxes. We are told these came from the same locked basement closet that prior records that were voluntarily searched previiously and voluntarily provided to the FBI or NA previously came from.
That will prove a major problem for the DOJ/FBI in any case.
Finally we are told the boxes taken were packed and transported by the GSA – as I said was likely before, an contained letters to Trump from Foreign dignitaries. This is about as far as you can get from claims that Trump has stolen classified information.
There is a huge problem for the DOJ here – they are going to have to justify this publicly – and the best justification would be to file charges.
But doing that is even MORE fraught with political peril.
So far what APPEARS to be true is the DOJ/FBI sought and got a warrant alleging that Trump illegally possed classified documents at Mar-A-Lago.
We do not have the actual warrant. We have what it is being reported that Trump’s attorney has said about the warrant, and what was searched and what was taken.
From that we know that:
The FBI searched Mar-A-Lago broadly. Warrants are required to be specific about what is being searched for and where is being searched.
I am sure Trump and his lawyer’s will make lots of hay out of the fact that the FBI searched Melania’s intimates.
Exactly as I had said before, Much of the material At Mar-A-Lago was packed by the GSA, and transported by the GSA to Mar-A-Lago – as part of their normal handling of presidents – either as part of the presidents normal travels between the whitehoue and his homes, or as part of the transfer from one president to the next. Regardless, in the event you actually find something Trump should not have had, you will have an almost impossible problem proving that Trump either personally or by directing others intentionally acquired something he was not allowed.
Next you have the problem that the National Archives and the FBI have Both come to Mar-A-Lago on several prior occasions – with Trump’s permission, Searched mostly the same places. and took cartons of documents previously.
Again in the unlikely event that you find something that should not have been there – you now have the problem of explaining why you did not find that previously, and you have a much more credible allegation that whatever you found was planted.
Finally you several other major problems. ranking members of prior administrations retain their security clearances.
the papers of elected officials and their offices are the property of those officials – representatives, senators and presidents alike.
This was a massive mistake.
The fact that you are saying “wait and see” – is evidence that even you are seriously afraid it was a massive mistake.
There is probably no one here that would defend Trump if say the FBI found in Trump’s papers something roughly the equivalent of the nuclear codes. but we all know that is not going to happen. At the very best you are going to have the DOJ arguing that the contents of some diplomatic Letter from President Xi is classified, and that Trump can not continue to posess it.
This in the face of the fact that trump retains his security clearance. That elected officials generally retain personally ownership not only of their official correspondence, but also their government papers as part of their office. That neither Trump nor his own people were involved in the chain of custody of this material, and that the National Archives and FBI reviewed this material on several occasions previously and could have removed it and did not.
Basically you have a lose lose. Pretty much no matter what.
No matter what you come up with – comparisons to other presidents, and particularly to Vice President Biden are going to arrise.
You are likely to empower groups like Judicial Watch that have sought to get at VP/Senator Biden’s official papers for some time.
Not only is this going nowhere – bu you have undermined all your own claims against Trump.
I am sure you can provide me examples of Trump SPEAKING in an authoritarian way, or even as president saying that DOJ or someone else should be investigated. But nothing ever came of that.
Conversly – Everything you have Accused Trump of doing tyranically – Biden has actually done.
But continue the same wishful thinking you have engaged in for the past 6 years that “this time we got him” – go at it.
When will you learn from your own failure.
I would suggest reading Moby Dick – the story of Captian Ahab’s quest for the great white whale and how that brought destruction on himself and all those arround him.
As you are dense – Trump is the “great white whale” and it is YOUR obsession with him that is destroying YOU.
So far it is legal until it is proven not to be.
They do not need to manufacture evidence.
All they need to do is claim that perfectly innocent evidence proves some made up crime.
This is what we have been dealing with forever.
Regardless, this is a hair brained stupid move.
They are unifying Republicans even further behind Trump.
They are making themselves look bad.
They are going to face demands to put up or shutup – which it is certain they will stonewall.
Which further makes them look bad.
The republicans should just start mass impeachment proceedings against much of the Biden admin as soon as they take office in 2023.
Impeach anything that moves.
Impeach the judge that issued to warrant.
They won;t get convictions in the senate – but they will Tie up the Biden admin and democrats for years.
Turn about is fair play.
So your answer to this is to go full authoritarian and seek vengeance without due process or proof?
What happened to the rule of law? Nothing about that warrant issued was illegal. Republicans are upset because the FBI did their job. Come on man, surely you didn’t join in on the hysterics and apoplectic ranting over something nobody really knows about. Nobody knows what was in that warrant, but that didn’t stop the calls for civil war, impeachments, vengeance, petty investigations, etc, etc, etc. It’s all too comical. An entire party triggered over the possibility that trump may actually have committed a crime. The horror!
No one does know what is in the warrant – yet there has been massive speculating here.
But there is one thing we do know. IF the warrant was “by the book” legitimate, that would be a first for the DOJ/FBI in years.
This facile liberal despotism in pursuit of what I have no clue, could very well collapse the American experiment into the waste of some other ‘ism’. The left should be very careful in the path they choose, accusations of treason, unequal and dispirited law enforcement, and the lure of despotic control, could end as the French Revolution did.
Based on the recent “60 Minutes” TV series on “Reality Winner”, it seems likely at the very worst Trump would serve less than 4 years in prison. Based on Winner’s legal precedent at the DOJ.
Winner was an American hero that played an integral role in killing over 600 foreign enemies during wartime. Upholding her constitutional Oath of Office, Winner exposed that a foreign nation was attempting to tamper with U.S. elections.
Trump probably won’t serve much prison time based on the Winner DOJ precedent.
A full battalion of woke FBI thugs, including butch bull —-s with machine guns, pillages and plunders the manse of the Real President Donald J. Trump with no rhyme, reason or customary and traditional warrant.
This Gestapo of the Deep Deep State Swamp Justice Department is terrifying.
I can’t wait for the Chinese to takeover.
What a relief that will be.
So glad the adults are in charge now
I would kiss Mitch McConnell right on his ancient wrinkly butt if I ever had the opportunity. Garland has exposed Obama and Biden for the deep state, police power authoritarians that some of us already knew them to be.
There is no peace to be had with Democrats. They have no interest in a representative republic. They are ready to shift to a full on one party police state.
They will REALLY dislike these rules when applied to their preferred people. Because I want to see a President DeSantis go nuclear on his Dem opponents.
Speaking of preferred people. A special tax on the wealthiest individuals and businesses should be imposed to cover the costs associated with our (essentially open) border policy. They stand to benefit the most, while the rest of us bear the brunt of the costs…apt. rents are higher, affordable apts. are fewer, consumer costs for essentials are rising because businesses claim inflation, more public services are needed….police, fire, EMS, hospital emergency rooms aka doctor’s offices for immigrants etc. Used car dealers should be included in this tax plan, property taxes….in some of the most predominant cultures, education failure is not considered
a disgrace – so schools operate essentially as daycare centers since education isn’t deemed important.
Let those who profit the most from illegal immigration bear more of the costs of it.
The primary contest between Trump and DeSantis should be interesting.
THIS JUST IN:
70 – 25
Dallas, Texas
At the Conservative Political Action Conference Texas on Saturday, former President Donald Trump overwhelmingly won an unofficial straw poll of attendees who were asked who they preferred as the Republican nominee for president in 2024.
“He’s more popular than ever,” said Jim McLaughlin, a pollster for Trump who conducted the straw poll.
McLaughlin announced the results from the CPAC Texas main stage about two hours before Trump’s scheduled appearance. Among the attendees who voted, 69% said they preferred Trump, with 24% saying they would prefer Florida Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis.
– CNN
Understatement.
Feel free to kiss Mitch’s butt any time you want!
gross
Democrats and RINOs know that the jig is up and that even with brazen attempts to fix the forthcoming elections, they are going to lose big. The latest Deep State operation is a signal of their utter desperation as the Democrats and RINOs double-down on their own corruption. And, unsurprisingly, the Deep State relied on a proven drone who would follow orders and do their bidding. The Deep State assigned the job of signing off on the warrant to invade Trump’s home to “Judge” Bruce Reinhart, whose primary credentials were that he donated a large sum of money (not necessarily his) to Barack Obama’s 2008 presidential campaign and was on convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein’s payroll before Epstein was imprisoned and “suicided” to protect Epstein’s guilty wealthy and powerful clientele. You cannot make this stuff up.
Seeing the inventory document of the warrant’s “return” would be interesting.
Seeing who was allowed to oversee/witness what was taken, -and to ensure that every seized item or document appears and is listed, would also be interesting.
Trump has a copy, he’s free to release it. The demands from Fox News cronies that the warrant be released and that Merrick Garland explain the probable cause are being made because they know the Justice Department would violate every policy they had if they did so. I’m hoping they get their wish. What they will find is that there was probable cause and a Florida Federal judge concurred. They will most likely find that Trump was asked for the documents, lied and said he’d turned over everything, or simply refused to comply. What I’m sure of is that the Justice Department knew their actions could be criticized and bent over backwards to follow the law.
“What I’m sure of is that the Justice Department knew their actions could be criticized and bent over backwards to follow the law.”
They “bent over backwards to follow the law”…..Hahahahaha.
You sound like Oprah saying “What I know for sure….” Hahaha. Don’t stop believing! They need true believers like you now more than ever…
What step of the process do you imagine they wouldn’t follow? Do you think there was no application for a warrant? No reason given for probable cause given that a federal judge agreed with? Maybe you’re mad because they didn’t give several days notice? (That isn’t how search warrants work). Maybe you think they never asked nicely first and that Trump was really cooperating every step of the way because he never lies. If you were going to search Barack Obama’s home, wouldn’t you take every step to make sure you didn’t violate the law?
Just a few weeks ago Trump’s team met with DOJ officials at MAL to continue discussions about allegedly retained classified documents. It is reported that the DOJ officials “sensed” less cooperation from the Trump team, and that is what led to the warrant and the raid. Many analysts have said a subpoena should have been the next step.
But a subpoena would not allow the indiscriminate removal of many more documents than what would have been requested. Reports are that the FBI walked off with much of what they could find, sight unseen, and intend to review it later.
This suggests that the real motive at work is to uncover whatever they can in service of the Jan 6 committee narrative, which appears to be the subject of a DOJ grand jury currently in operation. That is Andy McCarthy’s theory as stated in his recent NY Post article.
Why haven’t the affidavit and warrant been published?
Has Trump taken any steps to seek to enjoin the review of his documents?
Daniel: I think state and local laws differ on how many days following search warrant execution before the inventory/warrant/affidavit are required to be turned in and become official “public records” available to media and interested persons?
(Excuse me please, I meant different CIRCUITS, not states. I don’t recall SCOTUS having ruled on this?
Now that I’m thinking about this, does FBI have its own rule on this? Dunno. In any event, I doubt that it is as soon as you expressed, 24 hours after execution.
F.R.Crim.P 41 (f)(1)(D)?
(only requires a “prompt” return after execution? )
do we have any federal criminal practice attys out there following this blog?
(This is in response to your comment above, to wit, “Why haven’t the affidavit and warrant been published?”
It is not normal to publish them.
But they are likely provided to Trump and his attorney and whoever acted for Trump at Mar-A-Lago.
If the warrant is not sealed – Trump’s people can provide copies.
But I would be surprised if they are not sealed.
This was a huge mistake.
Hey there Daniel and John Say: I did some light research last nite (I am vewy vewy sweepy this a.m,. yawn) but didn’t post so late out of respect for JT site manager.
As I said earlier, federal circuits and local districts differ, and the Eleventh Circuit (Florida) has case law that addresses both First Amendment and common law access to warrants/affidavits/returns.
Appears that this circuit is pretty tight-lipped, protective. In one district court within the 11th Cir., the court denied access to sealed search warrants and affidavits at pre-indictment stages, Bennett v. United States, (S.D. Fla. July 23, 2013), (following U.S. v. Valenti, 986 F.2d 708 (11th Cir. 1996). Still don’t know of cases involving time criterion for turning all this (warrants/affidavits/returns back to the court). John is correct that most end up sealed, but once they are turned in to court and entered on the docket, triggers media/public’s right to petition for release.
P.S. John, didn’t mean to be critical of persons who are commenting in the wee morning hours, -didn’t know if it shuts down for a few hours during nite, -don’t usually pay attention to the times attached to comments. I am impressed with your cogent thinking and expression at such hours, not so much for me….
Lin, I welcome competent criticism and argument.
You provided good background regarding Warrants and process in the 11th district.
Thank you.
There was an excellent Barri Weis “Honestly” podcast of Greg Lukianoff of FIRE
Greg made an interesting point. None of us are almost ever completely right or completely wrong.
We arrive at the truth from the combination of remarks that are mostly right, and good criticism.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-eternally-radical-idea/id1570872415?i=1000571350979
Trump could have released the warrant already if he wanted to. He clearly doesn’t want to.
The FBI is also required to give to Trump an inventory of what was found in the search; if Trump claims he had no government property in his home and this is a witch hunt, then he should release the search inventory to confirm it.
The papers of elected officials, and their offices are not government papers – that includes the president, the vice president and members of congress, it does not include the secretary of State.
Sen. Biden’s papers from his time as a senator and those of his office and staff are not government documents.
And they are locked away at UDel.
It is likely this warrant is sealed – otherwise Trump would already have released it.
According to Trumps lawyers, including one who was present during the raid, she was not allowed to hold the warrant. And the probable cause was sealed.
She also stated the FBI wanted everyone removed from the site, the MAL cameras turned off, and she noted they had backpacks that appeared to be full. She was concerned they would attempt to plant evidence.
If that is an accurate report of what took place, the lack of transparency, does not look good for the FBI/DOJ/Biden admin.
The fact the agents conducting the raid are from the Washington office, does not look good either.
The Dems appear to be desperate to get Trump at any cost. Even if it means burning down their credibility, the credibility of the FBI/DOJ.
Seems they would rather destroy America then even risk Trump running in 2024.
Disturbing times indeed.
Yes, this is highly disturbing.
As I have been addressing repeatedly with Svelaz the clueless.
Absent Trump personally going to he whitehouse on J21, and absconding with boxes of classified material, There is not a legal theory of a case here that would hold up.
If Trump ordered the removal of information as president – it is now declassified. That is no different from Pres. Obama accidentally transmitting highly classified information on his personal secret email account while president.
This ONLY applies to presidents and only while they are president. But the entirety of classifed records laws do not apply to the president while president. This is why Trump providing the Russians with classified information obtained from the israelis was not illegal.
The other alternative is these allegedly classified documents were removed by the GSA at the direction of someone other than Trump.
In which case the Crime would be that of the GSA or this other person.
This whole mess is further diminished by the fact that the NA and FBI conducted voluntary searches of Mar-A-Lago on several prior occasions.
This too was highly unusual. Regardless if they found documents that were classifed they were obligated to deal with that then.
Aprpox 15 boxes were removed on 2 prior occasions.
The Story of what was removed THIS TIME is that it was boxes with Trump’s correspondance with foreign leaders while president.
No one has ever tried to claim that was not the property of the PERSON.
We have the same issue with absolutely every elected official. The Rule is that everything associated with THEIR office is their property.
The only documents that could be in a senators office as an example that are not his personal property would be documents provided by other branches of government. (and not correspondence.)
This is true of Presidents – hence Presidential Libraries. which as most of us know are PRIVATE. Not government. The funding for them is PRIVATE, the documents in them are owned by the president – not the government.
All one should need to do is look at the Size of the Obama presidential library to grasp that the President owns far more than his personal diary as president.
This is not merely a non-starter.
It is a really bad non-starter.
This comes off as vindictive and political.
And it would practically take video of Trump in a ninja outfit cat burglaring the white house after Jan. 20th to flip that presumption.
Eugene Debs wasn’t stopped from running for president in the 1920 election, even though he was serving time in federal prison for allegedly violating the Espionage Act. And he got a million votes.