Below is my column in the Hill on the raid on Mar-a-Lago. Questions continue to grow over the necessity for the raid as opposed to the use of a subpoena or other means. According to the Trump counsel, the former president was given an earlier subpoena and complied with it and then voluntarily gave the FBI access to a storage area and agreed to add a specified lock on the room. It is not clear why a second subpoena would not have sufficed if there were other covered material under the Presidential Records Act.
There is also a report of a confidential informant or source used in the operation. The only thing clear is that, while the J6 Committee does not appear to have changed many minds, the raid has. Any possibility that Donald Trump might not run seems to be evaporated with any likely challengers in the wake of the raid. That could change as we learn more details but the raid has galvanized Trump’s supporters. Ironically, Newsweek reported that the FBI was hoping the raid with Trump out of town would be a “lower profile” option — a notion that borders on the delusional. The lower profile option is called a subpoena.
Here is the column:
The unprecedented raid on former President Trump’s home in Florida has set off firestorms of celebration and recrimination across the country. For Trump foes, it is the long-awaited moment of FBI agents swarming over Trump’s property in a concrete step toward criminal prosecution. For his supporters, it confirms long-standing suspicions of an FBI willing to target Trump on any grounds possible, to bar him from regaining office.
The raid will fulfill the narrative of both sides and, in many ways, advance both causes. For many Democrats, it will paint Trump as a felon-in-chief; for many Republicans, it will reinforce belief in a “deep-state” conspiracy against him.
Yet this is another moment in need of sobering reality checks on what it does and does not mean.
The most serious possible aspect of the raid did not occur on Monday night. This apparently was not a warrant executed in relation to the Jan. 6 riot or an outgrowth of an ongoing grand jury investigation in Washington that could involve charges of seditious conspiracy, obstruction of official proceedings or other serious counts.
Instead, the raid initially appears to be an outgrowth of the long tension between Trump and the National Archives over material removed at the end of his presidency that is subject to the Presidential Records Act (PRA).
I previously testified in Congress on the seizure of some boxes of material at Mar-a-Lago and the authority of the National Archives to seek intervention by the attorney general to force compliance with the PRA. The PRA is rarely subject to criminal prosecution, and past prosecutions have resulted in remarkably light punishments.
While the PRA requires the preservation of documents — and Trump’s alleged removal of records likely violated the law — it is relatively weak on enforcement elements. As shown in prior administrations, presidents have long chafed over the PRA’s limitations and required disclosures.
The 1978 law requires that memos, letters, emails and other documents related to a president’s duties be preserved for retention by the National Archives and Records Administration at an administration’s end. Prosecutions can include charges under Section 2071 which states that anyone who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates or destroys … any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited … in any public office” can be fined or imprisoned up to three years. An allegation of removing classified material can trigger other laws beyond the PRA that bar the removal without authorization and proper protections.
Records violations involving both presidential and non-presidential material are common, however. Those laws were raised with regard to former FBI Director James Comey removing FBI material and then leaking information to the press, yet he was not prosecuted.
In the case of President Clinton’s former national security adviser, Sandy Berger, the violations involved stuffing classified material into his pants and socks to remove them from the Archives and, after dropping them at an outside location, to retrieve them later. Berger was allowed to plead to a misdemeanor, given two years’ probation and a three-year suspension — not a permanent revocation — of his security clearance.
Former CIA director and retired four-star Army general David Petraeus was accused of giving access to classified information to his alleged lover. Although prosecutors reportedly wanted to file serious felony charges, Petraeus also was given a generous plea deal without jail time.
Thus, the targeting of Trump on a PRA case would raise questions about the necessity for such a raid, as opposed to using a subpoena or other measures. It does not mean criminal charges are inevitable, despite the euphoria expressed in many quarters.
All this brings us back to Sandy Berger’s socks — with a top official knowingly stuffing classified material in his clothing in order to remove it from a secure location, then dropping it at a spot for later retrieval.
Thus far, Trump’s reported behavior is well short of Berger’s. According to Trump’s son, Eric, Trump’s safe was forced open, only to find it empty. The question is, what documents were found and was there prior knowledge that they were illegally withheld? Archives officials searched Mar-a-Lago in February and recovered 15 boxes of material; it is unclear whether they identified and notified Trump of other missing documents believed to remain on his property.
While there is no need to show “evil intent,” the Justice Department must show that “an act is … done voluntarily and intentionally and with the specific intent to do something the law forbids.” Whether such evidence exists here is not clear.
The Justice Department could argue that the earlier recovery of 15 boxes put Trump on notice that he had to make a complete surrender of any such documents. However, it still would need to show he had the specific intent to hide or retain such material. If he was given specific notice of material in his possession, it could show specific intent. It also would show a virtual self-destructive mania in light of the host of investigations already circling the former president. Absent an extraordinary disregarding of any notice, this search could find covered or classified material — but not necessarily find a viable criminal case.
If that is the case, there likely will be continuing questions over the use of a sensational raid to look for classified material, particularly this close to the midterm elections. The Biden administration has engaged repeatedly in heavy-handed FBI raids without any clear necessity, including searches or arrests targeting Rudy Giuliani, Roger Stone, Peter Navarro and other Trump associates; each played out on television, despite the obvious alternatives of voluntary surrenders. It remains unclear whether some of these raids even uncovered criminal evidence or will result in criminal charges.
There is a documented history of bias against Trump by top FBI officials, including prior falsification or misrepresentations used to facilitate the Russia conspiracy investigation. Thus, Attorney General Merrick Garland surely knew this raid would rekindle suspicions that this could be another example of what fired FBI official Peter Strzok once called an “insurance policy” against Trump becoming president in 2016 — only this time in 2024. For that reason, the Justice Department has an added burden to show this raid was a step toward actual criminal prosecution and not just a political indemnification.
We will soon learn if a criminal case can be brought on the fruits of this search. Absent such charges, the empty safe at Mar-a-Lago could become the most indelible and embarrassing image since Al Capone’s safe.
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. Follow him on Twitter @JonathanTurley.
Trump is petitioning a judge to unseal the warrant. Like usual. Leftist just guess wildly. Why a raid to pick up boxes under DoJ lock. A simple phone call to make an appointment was working just fine to this point.
But why seal the warrant?
Turley is the one who is guessing, and he is not a leftist.
As I pointed out earlier, multiple entities have petitioned the judge to unseal the warrant, including the NYT and Judicial Watch. Trump doesn’t need to petition the judge. Trump was given a copy of the warrant and can make it public himself.
Why did the govt seal the warrant?
Why are you asking me?
Unlike you, I don’t pretend to know things I don’t know.
Anomaly,
“Trump was given a copy of the warrant and can make it public himself.”
As usual, you assume facts not in evidence.
ashtRay, as usual, I already provided the factual basis for my claim, but you ignore it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_41
I’ve not only posted this link several times, I’ve also previously quoted the most relevant sections.
Federal law requires that the subject of a search be given a copy of the warrant. Nothing prevents Trump from making it public. If there’s some classified info in the warrant (which I doubt but cannot rule out), then it can be made public with redactions.
Anomaly,
Yes, the law does state that a copy of the search warrant must be provided to the person whose property is being searched and that this person must be allowed to witness the inventory of the items that are seized. However, this is no way proves that these actions took place. This is where you fail; the facts of what took place are not yet in evidence, you simply ASSume that the law was followed.
On the one hand we have the former President’s lawyer stating that she was not allowed to examine the warrant, she was not allowed to view the items being seized, and she was not provided with an inventory of the items that were seized. On the other hand we have AG Garland, the guy who Trump kicked to the curb, stating that a copy of the warrant and inventory were provided to the former President’s lawyer.
One thing is certain, Trump was not provided a copy of the warrant as you claim because he was not at MaL when the warrant was executed. Another fail on your part.
If you can provide a link to someone on Trump’s team acknowledging that they received a copy of the warrant and the inventory then this would go a long way towards clearing this question up.
Otherwise, we have a “he said, she said” situation with no clear indication of what actually happened. Do you believe the lady who was there in person and is reporting her actual experiences or do you believe the man who was 1000 miles away in DC and is just repeating what he was told by an underling?
You may be right about this but, if so, it would be a first. Don’t stop trying though.
fRayed,
“he was not at MaL when the warrant was executed”
Duh. Which doesn’t prevent him from being given a list of the items taken. AG Garland confirmed this afternoon that Trump was given a two page list along with a copy of the warrant. You may not believe Garland, but I do believe him. He’s a whole lot more honest than Trump or his lawyer. Garland also said that the DOJ has petitioned the court to unseal the warrant and appendices to the public. I wonder whether Trump will object.
“AG Garland, the guy who Trump kicked to the curb”
No, that would be McConnell, not Trump.
Anomaly,
You have tried to mock my name in myriad ways for quite some time and you have failed again and again based solely on the simplistic nature of your offerings. You know this to be true and this is why you keep trying for something new.
As for myself, I nailed you as an Anomaly right off the bat and it stuck. It’s a good name for you and your ilk and it is much easier to type than “idiot with a bag on his head”.
The problem for you is that, while you have managed to refrain from calling me “butt-face”, the names that you have come up with to date are no more sophisticated. But again, you are an idiot with a bag on his head so I have never expected anything more.
However, sometimes even a blind squirrel can find a nut and, for you, today is that day!..:“fRayed”…I’ll give you credit little fellow, you found a nut!
I am seriously considering changing my name to; “fRayed”, Pronouns: Jarhead/Deplorable/MEGA-MAGA!! (in this order!), Location: the Free State of South Carolina.
As for your continued arguments about the warrant, you have presented nothing new, you still assume facts not in evidence, and you are now trying to shift the argument. I get it, this is the only play that you have.
As for myself, I would love to see something solid and credible one way or the other but alas, all that we have to work with so far seems to be obfuscation from both sides.
It would be greatly appreciated if someone from the blog can offer some enlightenment on this question one way or the other.
fRayed
They are withholding the “probable cause” information from Trump and his lawyers.
Not a word from Biden’s DOJ. No press conference. Just radio silence.
Then Biden, Wray, Garland, and all of Congress took off on vacay.
These people want the anger to build in order to provoke “deplorables” into violence so Biden’s “jackbooted Stasi” can pounce. DO NOT TAKE THEIR BAIT.
Nope. Again, by law “A person who wishes to challenge the validity of a search warrant has access to the affidavits upon which the warrant was issued.”
The DOJ is required by law to be silent about specific investigations unless/until they indict someone. You’re complaining that they’re complying with the law?
Agreed that no one should take any bait to violence, but disagreed that that’s what the DOJ is doing.
Is an indictment imminent, in your opinion?
Why guess about it? I’d rather wait and see.
That’s not an opinion.
Trump doesn’t need a judge to unseal the warrant. He has the warrant. He could release it along with the itemized list of what was removed but chooses not to.
False Democrat talking point.
Let’s imagine that this will be cleared up one way or the other. If it turns out that Trump has the warrant and inventory and won’t release it. What would you think then?
What would I think? Smart move. It’s from the Democrat playbook: “Never let a good crisis go to waste.”
And everyone that lies about a sealed warrant and inventory list, they’re just being smart too?
Do you know who these people are? This is not a time to “play nice and roll over.”
That’s what prompted the search warrant in the first place, Trump didn’t play nice which will all come out. He thinks he’s above the law.
You got it. That’s the Democrat talking point. No one is above the law!
How about when “feds” lie? Are they above the law? Because you DO know, don’t you, that the FBI lied and falsified evidence in order to get a judge to sign a warrant to spy on Trump the last time around. They get NO benefit of the doubt.
One FBI lawyer made a false statement, and he was charged and convicted for it. Only in your bizarro-world is that evidence of someone being above the law.
You are lying again, but maybe it is because you are that ignorant.
He wasn’t convicted…he had his hand slapped, and now he can practice law…AGAIN. Democrats can do and say whatever they want with NO CONSEQUENCES. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10322339/Disgrace-lawyer-Kevin-Clinesmith-practice-law-despite-conviction-forging-government-records.html
It was not just “one FBI lawyer” making a false statement! The entire FBI Crossfire Hurricane investigation was based on a phony document, the Steele dossier, that they KNEW was phony and they still ran with it, got warrants to spy on Trump and his people, lied to the courts, lied in the media, and continued to lie about it all for over two years.
He pleaded guilty and was convicted. If you can’t even get that fact right, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Your own article says he was convicted.
Another talking point, because Trump (and his lawyers) *did* play nice. The ‘feds’ are the ones playing dirty.
Dem talking point: No one is above the law!
Dem talking point: It was a search.
The media have been dutifully using the more gentle word, “search” and not calling it a SWAT team Raid – which it was.
When have Trump and his lawyers ever played nice?
“When have Trump and his lawyers ever played nice?”
Trump is actually quite civil when it matters. Mean words on social media is another ballgame. You try playing nice when the feds bring down the full-force of the government to politically target you and everyone in your orbit while brazenly lying and falsifying evidence to frame and destroy you. There is a time and a place for “playing nice.”
“And everyone that lies….” I was referring to Trump, not “everyone”
RE:”And everyone that lies about a sealed warrant and inventory list, they’re just being smart too?: The deed is done. The warrant, the items taken, the inventory list all made public. The affidavit yet to be made public, if ever, presents evidence and argues for the justification of the issuance of the warrant. Whether or not reality will bite, and the entire matter justified is yet to be determined. There’s lots to be argued between the principals in ths matter. I plan to enjoy the rest of the weekend and await outcomes..
True talking point. I’ve already quoted the law that requires that Trump have been given a copy of the warrant. Here it is AGAIN:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_41
Do Trump’s lawyers have the ‘sealed’ supporting affidavits with probable cause?
You know, that link answers your question. (Too lazy to read it? You could instead read what I quoted earlier about that very issue.)
I didn’t read it. You assume Biden’s jackbooted Gestapo are following the letter of the law. I do not.
The FBI wouldn’t lie or fabricate evidence to get a warrant, would they?
Hey! What time is it?
Turley’s article leaves out the “little people” that don’t receive a slap on the wrist:
What about war hero “Reality Winner” – she played an integral role in killing over 600 foreign enemies. While upholding her Oath of Office she revealed that an enemy nation-state of the USA was tampering with elections. Winner served about 4 years for lesser crimes than Petraeus or Berger or Trump’s alleged crimes.
What about former CIA agent “John Kiriakou” – he simply refused to betray his constitutional Oath of Office – refusing to torture. Ronald Reagan’s torture treaty made it a felony crime – under USA law – for any American to torture anyone for any reason. The DOJ trumped up charges and sent him to prison for about 3 years.
What about “Chelsea Manning” – who was actually tortured in military prison (a felony crime by prison officials – under Reagan’s treaty) for upholding the constitutional Oath of Office. Manning revealed that innocent reporters and civilians were being killed by the U.S. military.
This is not intended to put Trump and other elites in prison, but shouldn’t we make real heroes like Winner, Kiriakou and Manning whole again with a full presidential pardon?
Unlike Trump – these heroes actually served their nation in dangerous war zones while remaining loyal to their constitutional Oath of Office and the Military Field Manual (rulebook for America’s military). There are two justice systems, Turley omits the other justice system.
With everything we know to this point, it’s a toss up as to what is more stupid; a 30+ agent raid on MAL or defending the raid.
Everything is fishy about this raid;
1. A magistrate (with a colorful past and their own sanctions / issues with the DOJ based on their manner of leaving it and information they used from the DOJ FL Epstein investigation to defend Epstein’s employees and his “sex slave.” Where is Epstein’s client list?? Everything leaks in DC, but this) signing it.
2. A sealed warrant utilized?? This makes it impossible for any subject of it to read the basis and scope of it.
3. Harsh tactics and manners of the doj attorneys and the fbi involved in the raid. Trump and his attorneys were in dialogue with injustice dept. and had been cooperating with it / complying with it’s recommendations on materials storage.
4. Prior administrations have had disputes / legal disputes with the National Archives over records never, ever leading to Draconian action like this by injustice dept.
For whom the bell tolls. Folks, the scariest part, based on their repeated abuse of power, is if they have done this to a former president they can do this to any of us for any reason or whim causing, even if innocent, us great ruination.
The magistrate is a Trump appointed judge.
Trump’s lawyers have a copy of the warrant, the FBI is obligated by law to give a copy to Trump. He can release it anytime he wants.
Those tactics are consistent with every warrant execution. It’s normal.
Prior administrations have immediately complied with the archives, they didn’t wait until legal action was threatened after month’s of non-compliance.
False.
The magistrate is a Trump appointed judge.
Trump’s lawyers have a copy of the warrant, the FBI is obligated by law to give a copy to Trump. He can release it anytime he wants.
Its a federal Magisrate judge. assigned by a committee of federal judges.
The warrant is sealed. Waiting on a Federal judge to unseal the warrant.
30 Agents searching for 9.5 hours. = 285 man hours / 40 hour work week= just over 7 weeks of on person doing the work. I cover a lot of ground in 7 weeks.
“The magistrate is a Trump appointed judge.”
The first time you made that claim could have been an innocent error.
The second time is a bald-faced LIE.
Prove me wrong. The magistrate IS a trump appointed judge. All of the maga fans are saying is that he’s an Obama donor, but what they are conveniently or obliviously leaving out is that he is indeed a Trump appointed judge.
https://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeships/about-federal-judges
RRE:”Prove me wrong”.,”Magistrates who are hired by district judges to help them with routine matters, simply decide whether law enforcement agents have established probable cause that a crime has been committed and that the search would uncover evidence of that crime.”-Palm Beach Post….8/10/22; Reinhardt was NOT appointed magistrate by Donald Trump. https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/15/west-palm-beach-attorney-bruce/7506025007/ I trust you are already familiar with the cause Reirihardt gave for recusing himself from Trump v Clinton in Palm Beach County. The question arises that, having done so, why he did not demurr at signing the warrant for the same cause.
You are an idiot.
RE:”Prove me wrong. The magistrate IS a trump appointed judge..” I don’t know what happened to my prior response to this challenge. Consider this:https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/2022/08/10/judge-bruce-reinhart-signed-off-search-warrant-trump-mar-lago/10289049002/ https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/15/west-palm-beach-attorney-bruce/7506025007/
You are not an idiot. If you look closely at the indentations beside the picture, you will find the idiot. If there is difficulty then move up to the guy called Svelaz. He is the idiot.
The magistrate is a Trump appointed judge.
Trump’s lawyers have a copy of the warrant, the FBI is obligated by law to give a copy to Trump. He can release it anytime he wants.
Those tactics are consistent with every warrant execution. It’s normal.
Your first statement is demonstrably false. As to the rest, you’re describing what should have happened. There is no evidence they followed that procedure and one of the attorneys at MAL stated publicly they weren’t permitted to read or retain a copy of the warrant.
Svelaz, magistrate judges are not appointed by the President. They are nominated by the Article III judges in their district: https://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/judges-info
Thank you for clearing up that misinformation.
RE:”The magistrate is a Trump appointed judge..” The magistrate has a prior professional history of potential conflicts of interest including, most recently, his recusing himself from hearing the Palm Beach County’s Trump v.Clinton matter for which he gave cause. Prudence would have seen him act accordingly when presented with that warrant for signature. Now, after having stepped in it, he endeavors to scrape it off his shoes.
As magistrate judges are appointed by a majority vote of the federal district judges (of Southern Florida) Bruce E. Reinhart was not appointed by then President Trump and confirmed by the Senate. “Six weeks earlier he recused himself from the former president’s lawsuit against Hillary Clinton and other Democrats in the Russia collusion scandal, citing concerns he couldn’t be impartial.” [1]
As the warrant was sealed and motions asked the court to unseal ASAP [2], the Magistrate in question has ordered the Department of Justice to file a response no later than 8/15.
[1] https://justthenews.com/accountability/political-ethics/judge-who-authorized-mar-o-lago-search-previously-recused-self
[2] https://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-files-motion-to-unseal-fbi-search-warrant-used-to-raid-president-trumps-mar-a-lago-home/
More nonsense and ignorance from Svelaz.
“A sealed warrant utilized?? This makes it impossible for any subject of it to read the basis and scope of it.”
That’s false.
By law, the subject of a federal search warrant must be given a copy: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_41
“Trump and his attorneys were in dialogue with injustice dept. and had been cooperating with it / complying with it’s recommendations on materials storage.”
If Trump failed to turn over any presidential records after NARA having to chase down multiple boxes of records, then he clearly wasn’t complying.
As for “Prior administrations have had disputes / legal disputes with the National Archives over records,” NARA hasn’t had to retrieve boxes and boxes from any previous admin. And I bet Trump is one of the people suppressing Epstein’s client list.
By law, the subject of a federal search warrant must be given a copy: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_4
Not if the warrant was sealed. There are reports this morning that the FBI had a confidential human source that tipped off the FBI. Whether true or not, the FBI would use that pretext to ask the magistrate to seal the warrant to protect the identity of the CHS.
The warrant itself wouldn’t identify an informant, so no, that’s not a reason for preventing the subject of the warrant from getting a copy of the warrant, as required by law. The warrant affidavits presumably use a typical FBI pseudonym (e.g., “Unidentified Trump Employee #1), and the law does not require that he be given a copy of the affidavits, only that he be able to view them if he challenges the warrant — presumably in a protected location, so that he cannot make copies of the affidavits.
Thank you.
It is obvious that the FBI targeted specific documents.
Specifically, The love letters sent to Trump from none other than:
Lustrous and Glorious Supreme Dear Divine Leader, Kim Jong-Un….Aka Rocket Man.
You can’t be a “felon-in-chief” unless you’re convicted of a felony. Democrats have thrown everything they could at Trump — Russiagate, “insurrection,” two impeachments, banning him from social media – but nothing has stuck. Not a single charge could be made against him, and not for want of trying. Democrats don’t want to get rid of Trump because of his policies — Biden has continued many of them. Instead, they’re terrified that Trump will open investigations into their crimes. Hillary, Hunter, and “the big guy” himself are corrupt to the bone. That’s their fear.
Absolutely the Left is scared of Trump.
The likely difference in policies between a DeSantis presidency and a Trump 2nd term is small.
But the difference int he make up of the administrations and the conduct of a Trump DOJ are enormous.
Trump is cleaning house if elected again. MASSIVELY, He is well aware of the cost of the wrong people in power.
IF elected he will have the political capital to fire large numbers at the top of all agencies.
He will get his own people in at the top of these agencies.
Unlike 2016 – he will come to office this time KNOWING who to put where.
And DOJ/FBI is going to be at the top of his list for house cleaning, and at the first opertunity the new leadership of both will start investigating democrats.
Democrats have normalized this.
Turn about is fair play.
No other Republican will be willing or able to go after democrats in the way Trump has.
Nor will any other republican be able to hit the ground running as Trump will be able to .
And Democratrs are terrified of that.
Well said, JT.
Your scholarly analysis and your grasp of the related cases is precisely why the Left has renewed its smear campaign against you.
“ According to the Trump counsel, the former president was given an earlier subpoena and complied with it and then voluntarily gave the FBI access to a storage area and agreed to add a specified lock on the room. It is not clear why a second subpoena would not have sufficed if there were other covered material under the Presidential Records Act.”
Turley is leaving out important details here. Trump didn’t immediately comply with the national archives subpoena for those records back in February. He held on to those records which were not his to keep…for months. The only time he agreed to turn them over is when he was threatened with legal action by way of a grand jury. It was months before Trump finally complied with the first subpoena. Turley conveniently leaves that out. Because there were still classified documents not turned over after the first subpoena the archives notified the DOJ that there were still documents missing.
Since it took months for the first request after legal action was taken. The keeping of stolen classified documents for any extended period of time posed a national security risk. Trump is no longer president and as a private citizen he was illegally in possession of classified information. The urgency and need to have them back to where they belong necessitated the raid.
Trump was in essence in possession of stolen government property. Obviously that is a crime and Turley is either being willfully ignorant or just plain stupid. The law is clear those documents do not belong to Trump and he’s not allowed to keep them on his property. Remember foreign nationals have access to mar a lago. And a simple padlock is NOT sufficient security.
Republicans going into hysterics and bloviating about “civil war” have no clue about what they are trying to defend. Trump was in possession of stolen documents. Theft is clearly a crime.
Your back pedaling incredibly fast.
Your still under the idiotic assumptiont hat the NA is correct about anything.
We have not seen anything like this before.
That is easy to explain. Because the National Archives has not been openly hostile to prior presidents.
Like Obama and Bush truckloads of papers are going to Trump’s library eventually.
Papers that are at Mar-A-Lago now, papers that are at the national archives now.
Just like Obama and Bush and presidents going back to Washington, just like Joe Biden’s papers as VP or Senator,
These records are ultimately THEIRS.
There is no good reason for the NA to fight over who holds them at this moment.
This was obviously a political hissy fit from the start.
What you had better hope is that the harrassment of Trump is not coordinated with the Whitehouse.
If it is Biden will be impeached and removed.
You had Better hope that this is some political appointee at the National Archives who is acting stupidly.
And engaging in an idiotic turf war.
One of the interesting things about this is that unlike the Clinton scandal – this is about PAPER.
There is very little paper in the whitehouse (or Mar-A-Lago) that is original.
Eric Trump claimed what was taken was boxes of letters to Trump by foreign leaders, and boxes of newspaper clippings that Trump has collected for years. We do not know that is true – but that makes alot of sense. Those are original documents.
And if that is what this spat is about – the Biden administration is going to come out with massive amounts of egg on its face.
And if it is not – then what is it about ?
Papers that the NA with near certainty has both paper and electronic copies out the wahzoo ?
It is highly likely that this all turns out to be a turf war between Biden and Trump – simple harrassment nothing more.
If you think otherwise – then please tell us all what PAPER Documents Trump could possibly have that are a huge deal ?
It has already been established – your own Cite that the FBI wanted different locks because of Classified materials, that Ex Presidents are allowed access to and posession of classified materials.
And lastly – for the moment. How is it these documents got to Mar-A-Lago ?
You keep ducking that.
If Trump did not move them personally – you are back to stupid turf war idiocy.
You are essentially claiming that the choices that the GSA made when removing Trump’s things from the whitehouse are not agreed to by the NA.
It does not matter who is right in that argument – the Left loses, the FBI loses, the DOJ loses.
You want Trump in an orange jumpsuit – you need to have Trump PERSONALLY secreting something like 50 boxes from the whitehouse to maralago.
And even that is ludicrous.
Presidential archives – the content OWNED by each president are huge buildings worth of documents – tractor trailer loads.
And you are ranting over 15 boxes ?
Unless these are nuclear football codes or something like that – your in deep schiff.
Put simply there is not a win here for the left.
There is alot we do not know.
But there are not infinite possibilities.
It is possible to look at what is possible and conclude that it is highly unlikely that Trump has a problem here.
And highly likely Biden does.
Worse still – all the ranting by the left to indict Trump, to prosecute Trump.
All the reports that Biden is seething because Trump is not being prosecuted.,
All that works AGAINST you.
It is entirely possible that all this is some over zealous idiot at the National Archives.
But with all the “get trump” stories it is going to look to the rest of us like a conspiracy.
I would remind you of the story of St. Thomas Becket.
Becket was at one time friends with Henry II, but after Henry arranged to have him made Archbishop of Canterbury, they ended up at odds.
Henry purportedly shouted in a fit of anger “who will rid me of this priest”.
And several in his court took that to heart and murdered Becket.
Those on the left should be careful what they say – as they can be considered to be part of a conspiracy when others attempt to turn their wishes into reality.
Those ranting to “lock her up” – have Comey’s own statement that Clinton seriously violated the law, but was not prosecutable.
You do not have the same.
You have put yourself into a Beria situation – “Bring me the man, and I will find the crime”.
Your in trouble.
There is now even some specualtion by those ont he left that Trump actually set this up deliberately.
That he essentally lured Biden and the DOJ/FBI into a trap and pushed them to act stupidly.
I doubt that – but even if true – it is STILL a problem for the left.
John B. Say, What backpedaling? I have been consistent with my arguments.
“Your still under the idiotic assumption that the NA is correct about anything.”
The NA IS correct. They have evidence and records to prove that trump has in his possession documents that ARE the property of the NA. The law is quite specific about that. As far back as February the NA noted that Trump had taken documents from the white house that he was not supposed to. They formally asked Trump to send them back to the NA and Trump essentially fought against it. The NA issued a subpoena for those documents earlier in the year and it was upon that legal threat that forced trump to comply. The NA shouldn’t have had to go that far to get those documents that they KNEW he wasn’t supposed to have. The Presidential records act is quite clear on why Trump can’t have those documents and your examples of Obama and Bush ignore the fact that the NA is still by law required to have all of their documents in THEIR control until they can vet or process them when each of their presidential libraries is ready to open. They also declassify documents according to stringent rules and when a certain amount of time has passed. This is all dictated by federal law.
“That is easy to explain. Because the National Archives has not been openly hostile to prior presidents.”
The National Archives didn’t have to resort to issuing subpoenas to get documents back from former presidents before, especially when this ex-president refused to cooperate the NA was forced to act. This is Trump’s doing. Not the NA.
“There is no good reason for the NA to fight over who holds them at this moment.
This was obviously a political hissy fit from the start.”
Oh, but there is good reason for the NA to fight over those documents. BECAUSE FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THEM TO ARCHIVE THOSE DOCUMENTS. It’s their primary job. How is that difficult to understand? They HAD to have those documents. The law is very clear on that.
“One of the interesting things about this is that unlike the Clinton scandal – this is about PAPER.
There is very little paper in the whitehouse (or Mar-A-Lago) that is original.”
It WAS about original papers. Why do you think they were requesting documents as physical paper documents? Obviously, the NA knew exactly what they had missing and they knew that trump had them. What is interesting is that this is about a federal law that it is REQUIRED of every administration. Trump is the one exception who essentially stole these documents and kept them for months after being told that they were illegally taken to Mar a Lago.
“Eric Trump claimed what was taken was boxes of letters to Trump by foreign leaders, and boxes of newspaper clippings that Trump has collected for years. We do not know that is true – but that makes alot of sense. Those are original documents.
And if that is what this spat is about – the Biden administration is going to come out with massive amounts of egg on its face.”
Eric Trump was not there. Whether they were letters or newspaper clippings they were NOT legally allowed to be in Trump’s possession. He was breaking the law. That is the whole point.
“And if it is not – then what is it about ?
Papers that the NA with near certainty has both paper and electronic copies out the wahzoo ?
It is highly likely that this all turns out to be a turf war between Biden and Trump – simple harrassment nothing more.
If you think otherwise – then please tell us all what PAPER Documents Trump could possibly have that are a huge deal ?”
The POINT is that those papers didn’t belong to Trump. The law clearly states that Trump cannot have those papers especially if there were classified documents involved. They may be “his” papers but they are official government records that, again, BY LAW are required to be turned over to the National Archives. Eventually THRU A LEGAL process so they can be disseminated to their respective presidential libraries. That’s how it works. That’s the gist of the whole thing and the right is going hysterical over a common process that Trump stupidly does not understand OR he is deliberately keeping those documents for fear that they will divulge damaging information about his schemes or intents. He lies so much that he is terrified of records contradicting him or showing he is indeed a massive liar.
“It has already been established – your own Cite that the FBI wanted different locks because of Classified materials, that Ex Presidents are allowed access to and posession of classified materials.”
No I didn’t cite that. I did say that the Trump estate SUGGESTED locks. They still couldn’t keep those documents there. Ex-presidents are allowed to access to classified materials, but NOT keep them in their homes or be in possession of them. They are NOT allowed hence the current problem. It’s illegal for Trump or any president to keep classified materials in their private homes period.
“And lastly – for the moment. How is it these documents got to Mar-A-Lago ?
You keep ducking that.
If Trump did not move them personally – you are back to stupid turf war idiocy.”
I’m not ducking that. That is self explanatory. Every president’s staff is supposed to KNOW what goes and what stays when they leave. The only one who has made this “mistake” is trump and he is known for wanting to keep certain things secret. It’s plausible that he intentionally ordered those documents to Mar a Lago.
“You want Trump in an orange jumpsuit – you need to have Trump PERSONALLY secreting something like 50 boxes from the whitehouse to maralago.
And even that is ludicrous.
Presidential archives – the content OWNED by each president are huge buildings worth of documents – tractor trailer loads.
And you are ranting over 15 boxes ?”
It’s not what I want. It’s what the facts lead to and they currently lead to Trump breaking the law. Even if it was one box, it’s still illegal according to FEDERAL LAW. You of all people should understand that. You wouldn’t let Obama or Biden get away with such a violation because to you the law is the law and it MUST be enforced. Here you are wanting to look the other way simply because the left may be right about this.
The reason why there is such a overreaction to this “raid” is because it was done legally and by the book. It was Trumps own stupidity that got him in this mess. He had every opportunity to correct the “oversight” and he refused and evaded until the government was forced to act. Especially when it involves classified materials pertinent to national security.
In end its the right who is wrong here. They reacted without thinking and it is showing.
John B. Say, What backpedaling? I have been consistent with my arguments.
Consistently going backwards.
“Your still under the idiotic assumption that the NA is correct about anything.”
The NA IS correct.
Because you say so ?
More and more information is coming out.
Garland personally signed off on this.
Garland has personally asked the Warrant to be unsealed.
We further find that what is essentially government harrassment of Trump has been going on since he left office.
Unlike you – NO ONE has alleged that documents have been stolen.
The NA has been aggressively harrassing Trump since he left office.
Despite the harrassment, Trump and his people have been FULLY cooperative from the start.
NA and a grand jury have been interviewing Trump and Trump associates about records from the start.
The NA has come to Mar-A-Lago – and they have been given anything they wanted – and this is well documented.
But then they issued a subpeona through he Grand jury – and the FBI came to enforce the subpeona – and Trump surprised the FBI by ebing present when the FBI came to enforce he subpeona – and Trump told his people to give the FBI anything they wanted.
LATER the FBI asked for better locks on the room Trump had his cloths and some records such as letters from foriegn leaders and newspaper clippings. Trump had the Secret Service put on the lock that the FBI requested.
After that the FBI asked for surveailance video of that storage room – and Trump complied.
Basically the NA. the FBI whoever has been given whatever they have asked for from the start.
The Biden administration has been UNILATERALLY ratchetting this up.
I would note that if Trump did not comply with a GJ subpeona – DOJ could ask the court to issue an order enforcing the subpeona.
But there is no claim that Trump did not comply.
It will be interesting to see what claims are in the Warrant.
This is all a stupid partisan game that the Biden administration has been playing since the start.
The only conflict that Trump has had with NA and FBI is in their heads.
This has never happened before with any president. All this is is a sign of how bitter and scared Democrats are of Trump running again.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/trump-got-grand-jury-subpoena-spring-voluntarily-cooperated-home
How many of Melania’s Panties & Bras did Joe/Hunter/AG Garland/Chris Wray & the Just obeying Commie-Nazi Orders guys Steal or Sniff????
That could be Your Wife or little girl or my family!
I know, “But they’ll say, I was just following orders!!!” , “But My Pension” Just like 911!!!!! Just like the Nazis claimed!
I hope they all saw Fauci getting his Azz Booed off in Seattle 2 days ago.
I think the America Citizens have had enough of these Commie/Nazi Prevs.
Just my guess, but I suggest Insiders expose the insider criminals further.
We’ll see.
“How many of Melania’s Panties & Bras did Joe/Hunter/AG Garland/Chris Wray & the Just obeying Commie-Nazi Orders guys Steal or Sniff????”
Oky do you think they will share their loot with Anonymous the Stupid?
There is no oversight here.
Further whether NA has been correct or not about anything – and they are not correct about much of this.
There is actually a records that Trump and his staff and his attorney’s have fully complied with every request from NA from the start.
NA searched Mar-A-Lago without a subpeona or a warrant. They were given access to anything they wanted.
They took what they wanted.
They decided they needed more.
Instead of coming to Mar-A-Lago to search for more. DOJ convened a Grand Jury and issued a subpeona.
Trump fully complied with the Subpeona.
If he had not – the next step was a court order to compel performance.
The NA/DOJ did not do that.
They jumped right to issuing a warrant.
You are right there is a HUGE problem here – the problem is that democrats are weaponizing government agencies.
This stinks to high heaven and was a huge mistake.
Even If Trump had fought the NA tooth and nail – this would be a HUGE error.
If Trump had fought this – that would be his legal right, and it would be up to the court to decide whether to enforce the subpeona.
Jumping to a warrant is a blatanly partisan step.
Further this is exposing the Grand Jury – which appears to be on a witch hunt for classified records.
Which is an absolutely stupid move.
If there are classifed records at Mar-a-lago – they are allowed to be there.
Even if you disagree, Trump is allowed to legally challenge that.
Even if he were to lose,
the records were all moved by GSA – not Trump.
You can not get where you want to, but we do know know the stupid ass premise behind the Grand Jury.
The answer for the search warrant is within your Sandy Berger/ couldn’t this have taken care of with a second subpoena deflection, Turley…
Let’s review ok?
Trump tears up, burns, eats and flushes documents while his staff ran around trying to tape it together for one thing…
And if a second subpoena is required for the information trump stole, why trust that a 3rd or 4th wouldn’t be required? Why not just get it yourself if you’re DOJ?
My money is on Melania and Baron dropping the dime btw. Let’s see what was seized and talk further, Magats.
lets presume that Trump did tear up, burn and flush documents – a claim with no actual support.
So what ? Every desk in the whitehouse has a trash can. Nearly everyone in the whitehouse has a document shredder,
People go through the whitehouse every day with burn bags to collect classified documents to be shredded.
Almost every single document in government, in business, in life today is a paper copy of an original that is in a computer.
Trump can burn, flush, shred, stomp on anything he wants, and that will not be a crime.
You left wing nuts are idiots.
And I would suggest actually looking up the photo of Trump purportedly clogging a toilet with shredded Documents.
Can you say “Jusse Smollet” ?
Are you so stupid you can not recognize a hoax when you see one ?
Ignoring the fact that Trump says the Whitehouse toilets do not look like that.
Ignoring that the photo was likely taken with a smart phone and therefore has a GPS location in the metadata.
Try this experiment. Take your tax return or whatever document you want and angrily shred it.
See if the result looks anything like what is in the toilet picture ?
People do not tear documents into regular rectangular peices that you can read after shredding.
Those of you on the left are morons.
You are incapable of thinking beyond the absolute surface.
Missing the point there, John Say. Trump’s predilection/fetish for document destruction is an absolute character predictor of how he’d handle stolen documents. It puts a ticking clock on when, and how, to take possession back of the stolen material…
E.
As to what’s contained in the documents, let’s avoid talking nonsense and wait to see what’s on the table, shall we?
B.
Represent.
“Trump’s predilection/fetish for document destruction is an absolute character predictor of how he’d handle stolen documents.”
So false. Trump’s predilection for destroying documents is a myth from unnamed sources or sources with little or no credibilty.
We have been through all this with the Collusion delusion.
When you hacve someone who has testified under oath and been subject to rigorous cross examination – then and only then will I beleive that a claim made about Trump might be true.
I am not some Big Trump, but we are well past the point where if a claim is made but he media etc about Trump you can be pretty damn sure it is FALSE.
That is what a loss of credibility means.
So you are demanding that I extrapolate from what is essentially nothing more than gossip to conclusions about Trump’s character – conclusions that do not follow if what you are claiming is true ?
Next – you say “stolen documents” – a perfect example of the left’s clown car nonsense.
How stolen ? Did Trump shove 50 bankers boxes down his shorts ? We all saw him get onto Marine one to leave the whitehouse – I did not see him or Melania carrrying boxes.
Or do you think Ivanka and Jared snuk them out in a van ?
Whether you like it or not presidential documents in Mar-A-Lago were transported their by the GSA. They were packed by the GSA, they were reviewed by the GSA. These people do this all the time. They know exactly what they are doing. They prepare ahead for a long time.
There is no stealing here. No one crept into the whitehouse ninja style on Jan 21, 2021.
How exactly is it that Trump “Stole” these documents ?
“It puts a ticking clock on when, and how, to take possession back of the stolen material…”
Stolen ? Right.
“As to what’s contained in the documents, let’s avoid talking nonsense and wait to see what’s on the table, shall we?”
Why ? Those of you on the left are NEVER right about your idiotic claims. Lets be open and upfront from the start.
This is not all that hard.
What exactly could be in these documents that justifies any of this ?
There are very very very answers that justify any of this nonsense.
I was just listening to the Lawyer handling the raid on project veritas.
She said- you are never going to get to know. The warrant is sealed – it is unlikely JW will win its efforts to unseal it.
We will never find out what they were really after. DOJ will stall, block, obfuscate and never come clean.
They know there is no answer that would not be damning.
When the GOP starts to investigate in Jan 2023 – we will here nonsense about ongoing investigations.
There will be leaks from the DOJ and FBI – but these will be false. Because the DOJ or FBI leaking the truth would get them fired – or in a more honest world prosecuted – but Attorney’s and Agents can lie to the press with impunity – there is no crime of lying to the press.
But you will not get anybody under oath in front of congress answering any important questions – short of impeaching them.
Democrats have opened the door – so impeach them.
Exactly. As another lawyer said, the “partisan chicanery” is found in the affidavits. Which are “sealed”…..how convenient.
why would multiple subpeona’s be required ?
The FBI searched Mar-A-Lago in may.
The searched the entire place.
They searched the same rooms.
They searched the same boxes,
What is it that you think ? Trump has another 10,000 boxes at some store-n-go ?
If so – search the Store-n-go.
Or do you think Trump is hiding documents in the walls at Mar-A-Lago ?
Do you idiots actually think before you write this nonsense ?
The boxes the FBI took this time – are ones that were there last time that they left.
There is next to no chance this goes anywhere.
The FIRST big problem you have is your are going to have to prove that Trump sureptitiously secreted whatever it is from the white house.
That he snuk it on to marine one with him.
This is not Hillary Clinton secretly attaching classified documents to her email for years, and keeping it all on a server in her basement that some foreign power had hacked and was reading real time.
This is dozens of boxes of paper you are ranting about.
Someone had to move it arround.
And it was NOT Donald Trump.
With near certainty it was the GSA.
So what you really have is a bunch of different government agencies all with different ideas of which paper documents Trump was allowed to have after he leaves the presidency.
Sandy Berger went to the national achives and stuffed documents in his pants.
Do you think Trump smiggled 15 boxes of material out of the whitehouse in his pants ?
You left wing nuts are complete idiots.
If you found nuclear football codes in Trump’s papers – you would still have to find his fingerprints on them, and even that would not be enough.
Your off in LaLa land.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
None of these left wing nuts ever think about the implications of what they are saying.
“Stolen boxes” – fine HOW How are you going to steal something from the whitehouse ?
Your not.
Then there is the claim that the NA knows everything about every government document. If so then they know exactly what was in the whitehouse, and what box it was in when it left. I doubt that is true, but if you want to pretend the NA is omniscient your stuck with it.
Next we have this “originals” nonsense. Very little floating arround government or anywhere is originals today.
Letters from foreign leaders, Trump’s newspaper clippings. an maybe his personal copy of things he signed as president.
Even when a law is signed – multiple official copies exist and dozens of pens are used – because everyone wants a pen,
And the NA is there to take the official copy right as it is signed.
The white house is full of Drafts and file copies. That is it. And there are copies on computer of all the drafts and file copies.
When hillary stole top secret material – she did so ELECTRONICALLY. Because that is easiest and because that is how everyone deals with things.
The very fact that we are talking about boxes of paper – already is reason to be very suspicious.
This is not 1918. We have been through the era of the xerox, the fax, and the photocopier and we are now in the era of the word processor an the internet.
Even the classified claim. Classified documents rarely appear on paper – did the FBI find lots of classified papers at Hillaries home ?
Classified documents are on classified computers, that have no USB no removeable disks, no wifi, no bluetooth, no printers.
That is part of what is damning about Hillaries emails – alot of work was necescary to get those documents from the State Department SCIF to her email. Large parts of the Whitehouse are a SCIF – within that SCIF classified materials are handled thoughlessly. But those documents do not get out of the SCIF, You are searched going in and out. You can not take cell phones into the SCIF. you can not have USB sticks etc.
In the real world none of these claims make sense.
John, your ignorance is astounding. You’re better than that.
There was only ONE subpoena issued. After that an informant allegedly had information that Trump was still harboring classified documents. Imagine the informant showing photographic evidence to the FBI. If trump was deliberately concealing more documents then a search warrant was warranted.
He’s very well known for destroying documents and the FBI finding out he was still harboring stolen documents they had a need to act fast. A second subpoena will have tipped him off and destroy the rest. It’s possible.
“John, your ignorance is astounding. You’re better than that.”
I am doing fine.
“There was only ONE subpoena issued.”
I do not recall saying otherwise.
In fact that is the point.
First if there was material at Mar-A-Lago that was not allowed to be there – that is the responsibility of the GSA and subsequently NARA.
The NARA searched Mar-A-Lago and was given full access in January.
They took what they wanted.
They were free to come again and search more. They did not. ]
Instead they issued a subpeona through a grand jury.
And in May the FBI searched everything again – and took what they wanted.
And again were free to return and search again.
Trump was present at the May search and told everyone to cooperate fully and give them whatever they wanted.
There are several possible next steps if the NARA/FBI beleive Trump was not cooperating.
Go back and search again. There is no evidence todate that Trump was not cooperating with searches – with or without subpeona’s.
Go to court and get an order to compell performance on the search warrant. that would have allowed Trump to either comply or assert that the subpeona was unlawful. But that never happened so neither occured.
Instead DOJ/FBI went for a warrant, That requires probable cause that a crime was committed.
Increasingly discussions seem to be narrowing to the Documents Trump declassified by Executive order that he has requested that NARA provide Patel and Solomon access to.
This is speculation – but if that is what this is about – then this smells like an effort by he Biden admin to coverup malfeasance by those in government during the collusion delusion. and that is going to blow up in their faces.
It is I guess theoretically possible for Biden to have reclassified those documents after Trump ordered them declassified.
But that will stink to high heaven.
It is possible even likely that Trump has copies of those documents at Mar-A-Lago.
Given that he ordered them declassified while president – he is perfectly able to assume they are declassified.
“After that an informant allegedly had information that Trump was still harboring classified documents. Imagine the informant showing photographic evidence to the FBI. If trump was deliberately concealing more documents then a search warrant was warranted.”
We have had lots of these types of claims for the past 6 years.
Has any of these proven True ?
“He’s very well known for destroying documents and the FBI finding out he was still harboring stolen documents they had a need to act fast. A second subpoena will have tipped him off and destroy the rest. It’s possible.”
False, there is lots of gossip that he has destroyed documents. Regardless, as president he was free to do so.
I would further note that if he had classified documents at Mar-A-Lago abnd destroyed them – that would not be a crime.
The crime would be providing them to someone who was not allowed to have them.
As I have addressed repeatedly – and keeps getting ignored. There is very rarely such a thing as a one of a kind classifed original.
Classified documents are kept on the Governments classified network. Paper copies – which are very hard to come by are NOT originals.
They are routinely destroyed.
Much of this came up with the Clinton mess – as it was necescary for her to transfer classified documents from the classified network in the State Department SCIF to her personal devices. Somehow that happened Thousands of times.
There is no way that was done accidentally or innocently.
Conversly Mar-A-Lago has a SCIF and Trump is still cleared and can access classified documents.
Sir or Madam Anonymous, your lurid speculations appear to be Ridiculous as they are Invalid… you have never seen Trump do anything to any documents… unlike witnessing Pelosi on live TV tearing up the President’s speech behind his back….
“Let’s review ok? Trump tears up, burns, eats and flushes documents”
Meaningless. Without proof. This type of response represents a mind incapable of productive thought.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
The administrative state is populated with very deluded and immoral people. They know what they’re doing is wrong but somehow they look themselves in the mirror and find justification for their behavior.
An Australian take on the FBI carrying out a warrant at Mar a Lago:
https://www.theshovel.com.au/2022/08/10/the-shovels-view-on-the-fbis-raid-on-donald-trumps-home/
Oh I love this take!! Posted on this scurrilous subject myself! Well, until it gets censored anyway. EB.
Do we no live in a world were unsubstantiated allegations – allegations in which most of the time we have no idea what person even made them are treated as facts – despite no succesful investigation or often no investigation at all ?
In the US we have a presumption of innocence. – but that of course does nto apply to Trump – only to biden’s.
Joe Biden is accused of rape – his senate papers can not be examnined to see if they support or undermine the allegation.
The Biden’s are accused of all kinds of corruption – using their OWN documents as proof – but that is declaered russian disinformation.
Trump is accused of – whatever the accusation of the day – and his entire life, his tax returns all records, are turned over to whoever demands them,
and over time the whole mess dies.
Yet those on the left are certain – anonymous allegations that fizzled are all true ?
Most of us grasp that when such allegations fail over and over and over – it is the credibility of those making the allegations that is questionable.
Who to beleive ? A DC FBI office that has been openly out to get Trump or years ? Or Trump who has been right about those out to get him for years ?
Jonathan askes, “The Mar-a-Lago Raid: Criminal Prosecution or Political Indemnification?”
Honestly people, if there is any reason at all to pose such a question then there’s a serious problem with the overall actions of the Democratic Party related to President Trump and the overt politicization of the Department of Justice and the Federal Bureau of Investigation over the last 6+ years.
This raid should really not come as a big surprise to anyone that’s been paying close attention to the escalating tactics of hive-minded cult, aka the Democratic Party.
A Brief Rant About The Last 15 Years
I think we’ve all known deep down that Washington DC is full of narcissistic, type A, partisan hacks with one thing in mind and that’s gaining individual power, but the actions in the last fifteen years of the Democratic Party and the politicians & bureaucratic officials that support the party are bordering on a hive-minded soft coup in a “progressive” (that’s an oxymoron, they’re actually regressive) effort to centralize the power of the Democratic Party, destroy any opposition and physically dominate the entirety of the United States. These hive-minded people have shown us repetitively that there’s no means that they will stoop to destroy their opposition and achieve their ends; aka, the ends justifies the means and their quite proud of using that unethical and immoral rationalization. A soft coup, such as this, is part of a conspiracy (whether centralized or disjointed) by people who are seeking a hive-minded totalitarian style centralization of power, their power, but do so under the false pretense of improving or saving democracy when in fact they are literally the ones that are slowly destroying democracy and freedom.
Here is the current Democratic Party’s four tenants of “truth”…
1. The Democrats are right.
2. Everyone else is wrong.
3. Wrong is evil.
4. Evil must to be destroyed.
…that’s the dead end of the 21st century Democratic Party’s ability to think critically.
Any opposition to the their totalitarian hive-mind is treated as an act against democracy and should be sacrificed upon their holy alter of social justice, this is then used to justify outright persecution of the opposition. Propaganda narratives rule for totalitarians. This is very cultish.
The modern day totalitarian hive-mind hates the United States of America, yes they literally hate (feel intense or passionate dislike for) the USA. They hate that the 1st Amendment applies to everyone, they hate ethical journalism, they hate the concept of innocent until proven guilty, they hate the justice system and anyone or anything that supports it, they hate civility, they hate the police, they hate anyone that opposes their ideology, they hate a Constitution that dares to allow others to oppose their ideology, they hate that our basic freedoms allow some people to make more money than others, they hate that their opposition has any rights, they hate the fact that equal opportunity doesn’t equate to equal outcomes, they hate our system of education, they hate that all our history (both good and bad) make us what we are today, they hate, Hate, HATE. Their hate is a malignant cancer to our society, our way of life i.e. our culture, and our country.
Remember Obama’s words calling “progressive” activists to action during his Presidential campaign in 2008, “Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”, well here we have it, the Democratic Party wants to fundamentally change the USA and turn it into a totalitarian nation and they’re doing everything they can to implement their irrational changes. These totalitarians seem to believe in rights for me but not for thee. These people are anti status quo. So-called “progressives” and social justice warrior’s ideology, aka the Democratic Party, has shown us that they are an enemy to everything that makes the USA what it is, both their anti ideology and those that push it are an enemy of the people. Even moderate Liberals are succumbing to the social pressures exerted by the 21st century hive-mind and they’re predictably falling, one by one, into the ends justifies the means abyss.
With every day, week and month that passes the tactics of the hive-minded Democratic Party become more and more obvious as their totalitarian tentacles stretch deeper and deeper into the bureaucracies that actually run and control the United States and those tentacles are strangling their opposition out of leadership and replacing them with anti-American anti-constitution hive-minded individuals with the ends justifies the means as a core belief. Consider this; the constitution will be toothless when all the bureaucracies are in complete control of the hive-minded totalitarian Democratic Party cult. If this cult is allowed to gain more power over the population then real tyranny is just over the horizon.
There; now that I’ve shared this little rant you can observe what’s been happening and what happens in the relative future with a new perspective.
Rant complete.
Rant indeed.
You seem a tad biased.
BTW, with respect to the politicization of the DOJ, that occurred under Trump, when he called on the DOJ to investigate many of his political opponents. Here’s a partial list:
https://twitter.com/MarshallCohen/status/1556982869695897602
Anonymous wrote, “BTW, with respect to the politicization of the DOJ, that occurred under Trump, when he called on the DOJ to investigate many of his political opponents.”
You are completely devoid of logic.
No, you illogical imbecile, what you’re talking about is attempted politicization of the Department of Justice not actual politicization of the DOJ; actual politicization of the DOJ as a result of Trump’s requests didn’t occur.
What’s happening now is actual DOJ and FBI actions, approving the raid on the Mar-a-Lago home of the former President of the United States, Donald Trump, that is being questioned by both sides of the political aisle because it is clearly perceived far and wide as being an unneeded escalation of the National Archives position and it’s clearly political in character, that’s active politicization. This appears to be an ends justifies the means side swiping political attack on President Trump. The DOJ and FBI should not be doing things that appear to be blatantly partisan and transparently political in nature while intentionally breaking the norms of how previous President should be treated; nothing even remotely similar to this has ever been done to a previous President of the United States, this was unprecedented. Who is actually breaking all the norms in Washington DC, the Democrats are.
An ethical President would fire the Attorney General Merrick B. Garland and the Director of the FBI Christopher Wray immediately for doing something that clearly puts a black cloud of pure politicization over the DOJ and the FBI when there were other avenues, aka subpoenas, to get the documents that the National Archives wanted. These actions make it appear that the Biden Administration is weaponizing the DOJ and FBI and that’s not the appearance that a Presidential Administration should be projecting. We don’t have an ethical president, and haven’t for many years, so I don’t expect Garland or Wray to be fired.
You might want to think critically about the comments you’ve written before you hit the submit/send button.
*Politicization: the action of causing an activity or event to become political in character.
And how many of those were investigated ?
Barr was the epitomy of an apolitical AG.
In fact Barr’s greatest failure as AG was that all his efforts to depoliticize the DOJ and FBI were for naught.
They lasted 2sec after Biden took office.
Sorry but the politicization is DEMOCRATS.
There are no FBI agents texting about insurance policies to get Hillary.
There are no efforts to suppress investigations of Trump.
Trump has said lots of stupid things. Nothing came of them.
The DOJ did not re-investigate and prosecute Clinton, they did not go after Obama or Biden – despite plenty of evidence.
Trump’s verbal attacks on enemies were exactly that – sound and fury signifying nothing
The actual politicization of federal powers was done exclusively by democrats.
But I doubt that will be the case in 2024.
turn about is fair play.
“PRO TIP: The feds are trying to antagonize you into doing something dumb and illegal so they can send their goons after you. Just like they did on January 6th.
Don’t take the bait.” ~Jesse Kelly
“It is not clear why a second subpoena would not have sufficed if there were other covered material under the Presidential Records Act.”
And Trump himself could go a long way towards answering that question by releasing a copy of the warrant and a copy of the receipt for what was taken.
Recall that by law (Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 41), “The officer executing the warrant must give a copy of the warrant and a receipt for the property taken to the person from whom, or from whose premises, the property was taken or leave a copy of the warrant and receipt at the place where the officer took the property. … A person who wishes to challenge the validity of a search warrant has access to the affidavits upon which the warrant was issued.”
Note that Trump has not challenged the validity of the warrant in court.
“Any possibility that Donald Trump might not run seems to be evaporated with any likely challengers in the wake of the raid.”
In your dreams. You have no idea what people like DeSantis have decided re: running for the GOP nomination, and you shouldn’t pretend to know.
“The raid will fulfill the narrative of both sides”
Personally, I’m holding my judgement until the warrant is made public (that is already a subject of multiple court filings by news agencies and groups like Judicial Watch), along with a receipt, so we know more about why the warrant was issued and what was retrieved.
“the raid initially appears to be an outgrowth of the long tension between Trump and the National Archives over material removed at the end of his presidency that is subject to the Presidential Records Act (PRA).”
We don’t know the basis for the warrant. Best not to make guesses. Patience is a virtue. BTW, executing a legal warrant is not a “raid.”
“the Justice Department has an added burden to show this raid was a step toward actual criminal prosecution and not just a political indemnification.”
I’m guessing that the affidavits used to obtain the warrant do that. We’ll eventually find out.
He doesn’t HAVE a copy of the warrant.
He does. I literally quoted the law that make it a requirement to give him a copy of the warrant. Again: “The officer executing the warrant must give a copy of the warrant and a receipt for the property taken to the person from whom, or from whose premises, the property was taken or leave a copy of the warrant and receipt at the place where the officer took the property.” What part of this do you not understand?
And yet the attorney who was present for the search says she did not even get to read it all.
The law does not require that the warrant be provided to a lawyer. It requires that it be provided to the subject of the search, who is free to share it with his lawyers and anyone else.
So where is the warrant ? BTW we all know this warrant is sealed.
JW filed to unseal it. No one has the warrant outside of govenrment.
And in the unlikely event someone not in government has a copy – they are NOT free to share it.
How much do you want to bet that the Warrant is not produced next week ?
Trump has a copy, as Garland confirmed this afternoon. That’s it’s sealed to the public does not imply it’s sealed to the subject of the warrant.
I don’t bet.
If it is sealed – Trump is not free to disclose it.
Cite for Garland saying Trump has a copy ?
Though I do not know why – I do not trust you, or Garland.
“Trump has a copy, as Garland confirmed this afternoon.”
Whether Trump got a copy or not we don’t know. ATS is not trustworthy. But, what we do know is that ATS has been making this claim from the time MAL was searched. He didn’t know squat then, so he lied like he lied about many other things having to do with the search of MAL
I explained my thinking in an earlier post leaving out conclusions I could not prove, something that ATS doesn’t do. He shoots from the hip and is wrong most of the time.
When he first said Trump was given the warrant, that was highly unlikely because it was shown and not given to one of his lawyers at MAL Trump wasn’t there to receive the warrant. ATS lied. Now we have to ask whether he has the warrant including an explanation. We also have to know if the warrant told us the locations and what the FBI was looking for. Did the warrant say that the cameras had to be turned off?
There is so much to know and ATS knows everything until he doesn’t.
Yes he does. By law the FBI is required to give trump a copy of the warrant and a list of what was taken. Trump KNOWS what’s in it.
He has the power to make it public. It’s more likely that the information in the warrant contradicts his claims therefore it’s more beneficial for him to keep it in the dark and deliberately enrage his base to rally a defense.
Svelaz, you have no critical thinking skills and are stupid to boot. I don’t have the complete answer to this question because it is more complicated than a simpleton like yourself can perceive.
What I know is that the attorney at MAL said it was a sealed warrant. There are reasons for a sealed warrant so one has to consider why it was sealed. That attorney was at MAL (Mar-a-Lago) when the FBI came, and I believe her when she says she could not view the warrant.
Does Trump presently have the warrant in his possession? I have no way of knowing, but we have seen the FBI delaying the production of evidence for years. Even the declassified Russia hoax documents have not been released even though ordered by President Trump while he was in office.
Are there other complications as to the release of the warrant? One can only surmise. As an example of the complications involved, The warrant had to do with a search of MAL. MAL is not personally owned by Trump. It is owned by the Trump Organization. That organization is huge so other legal entities exist as well.
The question could be that the FBI claims difficulty in presenting the warrant to the right entity. That is an excuse. IMO the FBI is buying time so that today’s news becomes tomorrow’s page 19th page inclusion.
Svelaz, you are abysmally ignorant with no critical thinking skills. Your argument in one post opposes your arguments in another. Your facts are generally wrong or incomplete despite the fact you represent them with such surety. You lie about facts, and when appropriate sources prove your facts wrong, you run away only to engage later with the same lies or errors.
Some think you are a paid troll. I do not know if that is true or not. If it is true they are not getting their money’s worth. If it is false, it simply confirms that you are a joke.
PS There is no reason you need to respond. You don’t like the insults, but I don’t like people that lie and run away wasting my time. My suggestion is to bear with my criticism and not respond. You can do as you wish.
good catch Wen. Here is more concerning info
FBI Agents Refused to Show Trump Lawyer the Search Warrant For Mar-a-Lago Raid; Kicked Her Out of the House
In an interview with the Daily Mail on Wednesday, Eric Trump said FBI agents on Monday refused to hand over the search warrant for the FBI raid of Mar-a-Lago to his father’s attorney Christina Bobb. Worse, they allegedly kicked her out of the house while they searched the premises. …Bobb, and Lindsey Halligan, another attorney for Trump, were called to the scene, where they had to wait outside, reportedly in the estate’s parking area, while the feds did their work. Halligan told CBS News on Wednesday that the search warrant was sealed, thus she did not know what kinds of documents the feds were looking for.
“Donald Trump and his legal team will likely seek a court order to force the FBI and The Justice Dept. to turn over a physical copy of the search warrant, the affidavit, and a complete inventory of what was taken in the Mar-a-Lago raid,” Fox Business correspondent Charles Gasparino reported Wednesday afternoon on Twitter.
https://amgreatness.com/2022/08/10/report-fbi-agents-refused-to-show-trump-lawyer-the-search-warrant-for-mar-a-lago-raid-kicked-her-out-of-the-house/
Let him say it under oath, where there’s a penalty for lying.
Trump’s attorney was barely allowed to read SOME of the warrant before they hid it from her.
Let her testify about that under oath, and then I’ll trust her claim.
We have already seen the FBI and DOJ lie repeatedly in Warrants.
Let THEM testify under OATH.
Oops I am sorry – a warrant REQUIRES providing probable cause UNDER OATH.
So we already know that DOJ/FBI will lie under oath.
Clinesmith didn’t himself submit the warrant request. He was convicted of making a false statement to another FBI employee.
You don’t name a single FBI/DOJ employee who “lie repeatedly in Warrants.” My guess: you’re imagining them, as you often imagine things you provide no evidence for.
Every person who signed off on the Carter PAGE warrant LIED.
That is trivial. Much of the Warrant has been made public and much of what is public is FALSE.
Further we KNOW that the FBI knew much of what was in the warrant was KNOWN false when the warrant was first requested.
Lets use Klinesmith – which you claim some familiarity with.
Klinesmith received from CIA an email that said that Page had previously acted as a source/agent for the CIA.
Klinesmith altered that email to say that Page had NOT been a source/agent for the FBI, and that modified email was attached to the warrant application.
Applications for warrants – as required by the 4th amendment are Sworn oaths. False statement are more than lies, They are lies under oath.
In a warrant – atleast as required by the 4th amendment law enforcement is not permitted to say – this is what we think.
They are required to support the warrant request with claims that meet the probable cause standard. That is not quite beyond a reasonable doubt,
But it is a far higher standard than reasonable suspicion – the standard to open and investigation.
Law enforcement must provide evidence – like the CIA email, that it verifies to be true and correct – under oath.
That reaches the probable cause standard.
When law enforcement fails to do so – the warrant should not be granted.
When law enforcement meets that standard – by using forged documents or other false statements or evidence. That is a lie under oath.
It is a crime.
So YES we KNOW that the FISA warrant applications for Carter Page contained SWORN LIES known to the FBI and DOJ when the warrants were submitted. This should be a big deal. Those who signed the warrants should have been convicted of Sworn falsifications, They should never hold a position of respect ever again.
And no I do not expect any better from the Trump warrant.
But lets go further. Robert Mueller ad histeam made NUMEROUS requests for Warrants.
But we know that as of the start of January when Dankchenko was intervierwed and went on the record saying what the FBI had know for moths that the Steele Dossier was garbage, that it was gossip from the DNC and that there were no first person sources for anything.
That means the whole Russia collusion investigation was DEAD. This is why Barr had DOJ drop the charges against Flynn.
Because at the time he was interveiwed by Strzok there was no longer a valid investigation going on.
This is why the Strzok request to hold open the investigation in Jan 2017 is so damning – you can not hold an investigation open when reasonable suspicion has died. The standard for whether a valid investigation exists is whether reasonable suspicion exists – not the preference of the agent to keep the investigation going.
About 2 months later Rosensten appointed Robert Mueller special counsel.
The only thing that had changed in that time is that Trump had Fired Comey.
Firing Comey does not create reasonable suspicion where none existed before.
That means that from late Dec 2016 forward there was never a time in which Reasonable suspicion for the collusion delusion existed.
Which means the entire special counsel investigation violates the constitution.
That means Every warrant request was a fraud on the courts, and lies under oath.
Robert Mueller never had the constitutional grounds to continue to investigate – NEVER.
The whole thing was a crime.
Courts actually deal with this all the time – it is called the fruits of the poisonous tree.
Take an axe to the predicate for an investigation and EVERYTHING goes.
Every single FBI agent or DOJ attorney who signed the FISA warrant for Carter Page – which was re-issued 4 times.
That is a significant portion of FBI brass.
You caught ATS in a lie. That was easy. Anyone can do that.
Now try and catch ATS telling the Truth. That will be a challenge.
+100
He does, and refuses to release it.
https://www.rawstory.com/mar-a-lago-search-warrant-2657840265/
“Note that Trump has not challenged the validity of the warrant in court” primarily because neither he or his attorney have been supplied a copy of the warrant and the inventory of the items removed from Mar-a-lago
Federal law requires that he be given a copy, and that if he wants to challenge it, that he also be allowed to view the affidavits on which the warrant was based: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/rule_41
Trump is an inveterate liar.
Links, that is all that ATS can provide. Did he completely read the link operative sentence and then provided the link. ATS is a charlatan.
Merrick Garland is a figurehead. Take a closer look at what Obama-insider Lisa Monaco is doing at DOJ.
From Julie Kelly —->
“I wrote this in April 2021 after the confirmation of Lisa Monaco.
Don’t forget how Senate GOP enabled this rolling disaster—which is why so few are speaking out.”
______________________________________________________–
Senate Republicans Just Handed Matches to an Arsonist
https://amgreatness.com/2021/04/22/senate-republicans-just-handed-matches-to-arsonist/
“Biden’s Justice Department is shaping up to be as hyperpartisan, relentless, and destructive as Barack Obama’s, perhaps more so since no one has been held responsible for perpetuating the Russian collusion hoax on the American people.”
Julie Kelly wrote this in March 2021 —->
“Despite assurances that his Justice Department will be independent and free from partisan bias, Joe Biden (or whoever is running the White House) is stacking the agency with Obama loyalists who have a history of weaponizing their authority against political foes. Their actions in office and public comments during Trump’s presidency are disqualifying on their face, never mind that they remove all doubt that these appointees are unfair and selective enforcers of the rule of law.”
https://amgreatness.com/2021/03/08/obamas-wingmen-set-to-take-over-justice-department-again/
“In the end, it all come back to Barack Obama. He spent 8 years filling every part of this government with America-hating communist activists. That’s what finished us. We were done when he walked out of the White House. We just didn’t know it yet.” ~Jesse Kelly
Well, the current administration does seem to be Obama 3.0
THE THREAT NON-SECULAR WHITE POWER BRINGS
Democracy requires independent courts and free and fair elections. Free and fair elections in a democracy require candidates who are willing to peacefully accept losses and wins.
The problem we have today is an unfortunate convergence of democratic horrors:
1) America has the first U.S. Presidential candidate who believes and tells his supporters the only way he could lose would be if his opponents and the government cheat Donald Trump; Donald John Trump’s personal mental health issues have cross-contaminated and emboldened White Supremacists.
2) America is transforming away from Non-Secular White Power Rule to a highly diverse, secular majority rule.
This transformation exposes the violence and mental illness associated with Non-Secular White Power.
Non-Secular White Power absolutely rejects the notion or possibility that a new American diverse secular population could dethrone and overcome Non-Secular White Power.
Non-Secular White Power has always, always believed God authorized Non-Secular White Power to permanently rule America; and that anyone or any group displacing or dethroning Non-Secular White Power is evil incarnate and must be extinguished and voided.
Further, Non-Secular White Power fervently believes their God authorizes Non-Secular White Power to take any action, including violence and stealing elections, to maintain power and control of an ever-emerging, highly-diverse American society.
Worse, Non-Secular White Power does not believe in Majority Rule as a matter of non-secular policy, since maintaining authoritarian control is more important than conducting free and fair elections.
The truth is Non-Secular White Power has always been a ticking time bomb in waiting; waiting for the day Non-Secular White Power is threatened and under attack by an ever-increasing diverse population.
Non-Secular White Power has always indoctrinated and warned their offspring and white youth in general: one day the N-WORD(s) are going to take over and they’re going to rape your wife, break into your home and defile and dethrone Non-Secular White Power.
Non-Secular White Power believes the only solution to diversity threatening majority rule is not a political solution or an electoral solution, but a Second Amendment solution: the Final Solution.
That is the DOG WHISTLE MESSAGE echoing throughout the Trumpverse and the halls of Non-Secular White Power.
Diverse majority rule is completely and wholly unacceptable to Non-Secular White Power, period – U.S. Constitution, federal law and courts be damned!
Non-Secular White Power has always believed the Second Amendment is not for hunting or sport, but to STOP DIVERSITY FROM OVERCOMING OR DILUTING NON- SECULAR WHITE POWER.
My point is Donald Trump and the Republican Party are not willing to peacefully lose any election; but they are willing to use violence to maintain Non-Secular White Power.
This will not have a Happy Ending.
I predict the criminal prosecution of Donald Trump will be the proverbial line in the sand Non-Secular White Power is willing to cross at all costs.
Donald Trump is going to give America the Civil War that Non-Secular White Power has been calling for.
The indictment and trial of Donald Trump will embolden Non-Secular White Power members to literally kill diversity, repatriate and reconfirm Non-Secular White Power.
Non-Secular White Power will not die a peaceful death, nor is Non-Secular White Power interested in being demoted from Absolute Ruler to an equal amongst a diverse society.
When will the Diverse Majority realize America needs to ban semi-automatic weapons?
One-third of Americans believe the Second Amendment gives them the right to violently overthrow the federal government.
This 33% are most likely Trump supporters of Non-Secular White Power who practice shooting their semi-automatic weapons in the event Non-Secular White Power needs to execute a violent armed insurrection of the federal government.
These are the armed HOLY WARRIORS OF NON-SECULAR WHITE POWER.
I predict absent a full ban on semi-automatic weapons, Non-Secular White Power will use and cite the Second Amendment as Holy Authorization to maintain Non-Secular White Power control of government.
I predict Non-Secular White Power will try to intimidate, shoot and kill anyone standing in their path to return Non-Secular White Power to Glory and Absolute Rule.
The criminal prosecution, trial, conviction and sentencing of Donald Trump will motivate Non-Secular White Power to new depths of violence and civil unrest heretofore unknown in America since the Civil War.
https://thehumanist.com/magazine/summer-2022/features/conquering-secular-and-skeptical-white-supremacy-in-america/
You are either delusional or projecting. The most likely origin of violence comes from the left wing, Antifa, BLM, and most frightening, an amped up totalitarian government of communists, the real insurrectionists. Those currently in power. Wray’s statement about threats against law enforcement have all the ear markings of a false flag event to come to justify martial law: arresting opposition, seizing guns, shutting down the internet and taking control of elections (as if that hasn’t already occurred).
studioron1: Respectfully, I opine that your very lengthy piece represents a little bit of overreaction here, n’est ce pas? But then again, thank you for confirming for us that you have been so “impressed” by the article you cited. Another example of the subversive, sub-current, subliminal effect of MEDIA. Again, I thank you for getting it all out of your system before it starts to give you heartburn.
Respectfully, you come across as passive aggressive.
S. Meyer: The fact that there are a number of hateful, rude, vitriolic and insulting comments here today, but somehow you chose my rather mild brief statement to display your psychological acumen, -tells us more about you than me. Thanks anyway.
Yours truly, Lin
Lin,That was not me. If you look at the icon you will see it is different from mine. Usually it is YNOT who does this type of thing. He is a known nutcase from long ago, so you have him pegged correctly. You will see him copying my name a lot. That is what one has to face when talking to leftists.
People have to look at the icon, not just the name.
I have no problems with any of your comments.
S. Meyer: Yes, yes, as soon as I clicked the “post comment” I realized that I should have explained that it was not you. Problem was, he calls himself “not the troll” (apparently referring to you) and I would have had to reiterate his whole blog name which I didn’t want to endorse, so I just clicked it. Please accept my apology for the confusion, and ditto on the comments.
Lin, no apology needed. You did the right thing. I don’t insult those that are trying to sort things out even if I disagree with them. I insult those who are insulting or if they continuously lie and deceive. Lots of times I will insult Anonymous the Stupid under an anonymous name so people know what I am saying has little relevance to the discussion.
Studio did you ever attend Evergreen College?
you should write for the Babylon Bee……….so funny…………I could not stop laughing…………..great start to my day
It is always the atheists who pontificate about moral issues, e.g. racism, and pound their chests about their dependance on facts and reason. If only it were true. Follow the science!
McNamara ME, Rossi V, Slater TS, Rogers CS, Ducrest AL, Dubey S, Roulin A. Decoding the Evolution of Melanin in Vertebrates. Trends Ecol Evol. 2021 May;36(5):430-443. doi: 10.1016/j.tree.2020.12.012. Epub 2021 Feb 3. PMID: 33549373.
Ron, White Supremacy is your religion with nary a fact to support your delusional manifesto. The color of one’s skin is determined by genetic factors that activate melanocytes that synthesize proteins (broadly known as melanin) which have a wide variability of penetration and phenotypic ratios. Rarely have I seen two people from the same race, be they “black”, brown” or “white”, who have had the same phenotypic penetration of a lousy protein that conveys no supernatural, mythic powers. Hispanics like me come in all hues and shades, some from the same family. I get dark as a skunk when I go to the beach but my siblings get sunburnt. Fun fact: birds, reptiles, fish, plants, insects, vertebrates all exhibit this “racist” feature of pigmentation. Melanin is also expressed in our retinas, hair, brain, etc
PS: you are a pasty white dude. The Aztecs, Mayas and Incas would have loved you, and “beat the white off your a**”, to quote Richard Pryor
38 of 52 states constitutionally require Secret Ballot elections.
A secret ballot requires:
an official ballot being printed at public expense,
on which the names of the nominated candidates of all parties and all proposals appear,
being distributed only at the polling place and
being marked in secret.
These requirements were NOT met in 2020.
The election was LAWLESS.
State legislatures – as required by the constitution, make the laws that dictate how elections are conducted.
Governor’s and Sec. States, and State Election commissions in state after state in 2020, ignored those laws and concocted new rules of their own.
That is LAWLESS.
Ballot harvesting is illegal in every state in he country except California.
Yet, we had massive ballot harvesting in 2020.
That is LAWLESS.
The administration of elections in many places was turned over to NGO’s.
That is LAWLESS.
The law, as well as trust and morality require tht the entirety of an election is conducted transparently with observers, and chain of custody documents.
This was routininely ignore in 2020.
That is LAWLESS.
A majority of States have voter ID laws requiring that voters provide Government issued photo ID as proof of citizenship, the right to vote in the specific precinct they are voting at, and as proof that they are who they say they are.
None of this was done anywhere for mailin ballots.
Mailin voting violates State constitutions, it violates Voter ID laws, and it violates transparency and ethical requirements.
We know what happens when ballots are free floating in public – we have the example of massive fraud int he 19th century.
Secret Ballot laws and state constitutional provisions were put in place to end the massive inducement and coercion of voters that occurred in the 19th century.
So long as ballots are out in public – voters can be coerced or induced to vote specific ways – that is lawless and that is fraud.
Just a few days ago a Maryland county decertified election results and recounted the ballots – because the number of voters who voted and the number of ballots that were counted were off by about 1000.
In PA, GA, AZ, NV, MI, WI the discrepancy between number of voters and number of ballots counted exceeds biden’s margin of victory – often by a full order of magnitude.
No election EVER should be certified where more ballots are counted than voters.
If you can not conduct lawful elections – those election will not be trusted.
If you can not conduct transparent elections – those elections will not be trusted.
Ultimately the legitimacy of an election – and the legitimacy of the government rests on the trust of the citizens.
It is irrelevant whether citizens do not trust an election because of lawlessness, or fraud or, any other reason.
An election where 10% of people do not trust the result is illegitmate, and dangerous, and likely to lead to violence.
As much as 52% of voters beleive cheating effected the outcome of the 2020 election.
You do not get to blame the people for failure to trust government.
It is governments DUTY to ear the trust of the people.
The FIRST requirements for that are lawful elections.
But that is NOT sufficient.
Government MUST do whatever it takes to assure that nearly all citizens trust the results of elections.
If everything in 2020 had been done “perfectly” which it was not,
and people still did not trust the results – then the results would not be legitimate.
Without the trust of citizens in the election, the results of the election are not legitimate.
The purpose of election laws, the purpose of constitutional requirements for secret ballots, the purpose of laws against ballot harvesting,
the purpose of voter ID laws, the purpose of transparency, The purpose of all the complexity of elections that those on the left hate,
Is to instill trust in citizens.
Fail at that and the election is not legitimate, and the government is not legitimate.
‘
The raid, and that is what it was, is already backfiring. Unlikely critics are denouncing it and the Regime’s blame game is ramping up to point elsewhere. Clearly the ultimate goal is to take Trump down and disqualify him from running in 2024. If that is not politicization, nothing is. Concern over classified documents? Please . . . But one can’t help wonder if the FBI isn’t planning to clumsily plant evidence, or was there to secure incriminating evidence Trump might have possessed, not yet revealed. More details on Joe and Hunter’s nefarious business dealings, suppressed information on the Russia collusion frame up, or even Epstein’s client list. All things that Trump might unveil in a 2024 run. Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense.
“Concern over classified documents? Please”
A reminder that after calling for Hillary Clinton to be jailed, in 2018 Trump signed a law that stiffened the penalty for the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents from one year to five years, turning it into a felony offense.
Your imaginings sound like fiction.
I think that this may end up being the Rubicon. The Democrats have finally gone over the line with their obvious police state tactics and now it is too public to be kept from the moronic masses that get their news from CNN, MSNBC and the 3 networks. Of course CNN and MSNBC are trying to justify this appalling action, but they are losing this battle and they may have proverbially shot themselves in the foot.
The deceit and hypocrisy run deep with the current regime and their minions, especially the FBI.
Those documents belong us, not Trump. Anyone that steals taxpayer-owned documents, justifies the National Archives recovering that stolen property. The National Archives made an effort to recover the stolen documents and apparently Trump said “no”.
Trump has a copy of the search warrant and inventory of what items were seized. Trump could have released that information but instead cited the 5th Amendment over 440 times.
There has been no indictments, only recovering the stolen documents that Trump stole. Trump never owned those documents.
Ashhat, the issue isn’t the “crime”, the issue is the DOUBLE STANDARD! Hillary, Sandy Berger, Comey etc etc etc. Stop being a fascist little partisan hack.
This is our new life here in Doublestandardstan (TM).
The law changed since Clinton and Berger. Why? Because the Republican-controlled House and Senate passed a new law in 2018 stiffening the penalty for the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents from one year to five years and turning it into a felony offense, and Trump signed it.
No double standards.
BTW, we don’t know that Trump will be charged EITHER. Learn patience.
“Learn patience.”
Learn to learn from history — starting with the Russia hoax, on down.
There was no “Russian hoax.” Multiple members of Trump’s campaign interacted with Russian agents in order to help Trump win. Manafort admits to passing sensitive campaign polling data along to Kilimnik, Stone worked with Guccifer 2 re: the Wikileaks dump, Flynn is on tape with the Russian ambassador discussing sanctions when he was not yet the NSA, …
Learn to pay better attention to the historic details yourself.
“There was no ‘Russian hoax.’”
I amend my comment:
Learn to stop re-writing history.
RE:”“Learn patience.” If the two of you, as well as others herein, would adhere to a creative, non-hostile style of writing, we could dispense with the verbal tennis matches which go on herein, save space and direct our attentions to the issues at hand.
“. . . would adhere to a creative, non-hostile style of writing . . .”
Says the one who apparently does not grasp that passive-aggressive behavior is born of hostility.
RE:”Says the one who apparently does not grasp that passive-aggressive behavior is born of hostility…” Do you find my writing passive-aggressive? If so, how?
You make assumptions that confirm your prejudice. Yesterday you promoted a half-dozen to a dozen wrong facts. Today you forget about them and provide new facts you know very little about. You hope in the argument someone will spend time understanding the law. If he disagrees with your puny knowledge of the facts you will disagree or pick out a thread to hang on for a little longer. If he agrees with you you will pat yourself on the shoulder proving to yourself, BUT no one else how smart you are.
That is the nature of ATS and those that pose with him.
ATS makes assumptions that confirm his prejudice. Yesterday he promoted a half-dozen to a dozen wrong facts. Today he forget about them and provide new facts you know very little about. He hope in the argument someone will spend time understanding the law. If he disagrees with your puny knowledge of the facts you will disagree or pick out a thread to hang on for a little longer. If he agrees with you you will pat yourself on the shoulder proving to yourself, BUT no one else how smart you are.
That is the nature of ATS and those that pose with him.
AZ:
“Those documents belong us, not Trump. Anyone that steals taxpayer-owned documents, justifies the National Archives recovering that stolen property.”
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Love the righteous indignation over a jaywalking ticket. And can’t wait for your diatribe against Comey, Hillary, Petreaus and every other sleazy Dim who took far more and got far less scrutiny.
To be fair? Right, AZ?
The president has the ultimate authority to declassify documents. And if you may recall, presidents have had disagreements over documents, archives, and executive privilege surrounding them in the past.
Tell that to Sandy Berger and Hilary Clinton.
Neither Trump nor his attorney have been supplied with a copy of the search warrant.. his citing the 5th is part of a lawsuit in NYstate and has nothing to do with the FBI raid.
we still dont know what “records” NARA recovered
“Anyone that steals taxpayer-owned documents, justifies the National Archives recovering that stolen property.”
then where was NARA when it came to HRC’s emails?
That Archives argument is nonsense.
Most of the country knows that presidential libraries are private, and that they contain Truckloads of documents.
There is a gigantic gulf between – undeniably government property and the NA being in a pissing contest with Trump over who owns which documents.
And that ignores the “how did they get to Maralago.” problem.
Unlike Sandy Berger Trump did not shove 50 boxes of documents down his pants.
Unlike Hillary he did not sneak them out of the SCiff and then email them to others, and store them all on an email server that foreign powers could hack.
These are paper documents locked in storage at maralago
We do know the NA have been providing documents to the J6 committee. Conducting a raid on MAL, presumably to gather documents for the NA, would effectively be a raid to provide documents to the J6 committee.
From a legal perspective I care what is being provided to the J6 committee.
The Biden administration by Waiving Trump’s privilege does not seem to grasp that they have waived their own.
But Personally I believe that very little of what goes on in the Executive is immune from congressional oversight.
But that has not been the view of the courts – at least not until they all agreed we should Get Donald Trump.
But these choices take on a life of their own.
I do not care much if Everything Trump related in provided to the J6 committee or subpeona’d willy nilly,
If what is good for the goose is good for the gander. There will be a reversal. Republicans will regain the house in the fall.
When that time comes – I do not want to hear about executive privilege or ongoing investigations or any of the other valid or invalide claims to thwart inquiry that were not honored when democrats controlled the house.
I hope that Republicans do a better job of following the house rules than democrats. I hope that democrats are allowed to put whatever members they wish on committees. I hope witnesses are examined and cross examined.
But when they call AG Garland and he refuses to answer questions – Impeach him.
When they request documents and the White house refuses – impeach Biden.
I do not care if the Senate removes them. We are passed that. Democrats have made impeachment into a political weapon.
Republicans can use it – and do so far less blatantly politically than democrats.
Trump has a copy of the search warrant and inventory of what items were seized.
Trump has a request before a federal judge right now to unseal the warrant. So as usual, the left is just making stuff up to support their lies.
“Those documents belong us, not Trump.”
AZ, you make that comment without knowing what documents you are talking about. A piece of toilet paper slipped into some of the papers. I will provide you with ownership of that piece of toilet paper. Before you make such a claim, you ought to know what you are talking about.
Do you realize how many times the record keepers and the FBI have been at MAL collecting things they believe are their duty to collect? If they did the job correctly the first time, one would expect that no documents remained. If they did the job a second time it would be crazy to believe Trump withheld anything because by that time they would have figured out what they forgot. I don’t know how many more times officials were collecting things but as late as June third the FBI collected more documents and Trump thanked them and said his door was open to any further requests they had. They then asked to place their lock on the storage room which was intact when they last broke in to do what was completed months before.
“Those documents belong us, not Trump.” sounds like a record that doesn’t recognize that the FBI supposedly emptied everything from MAL. The President hasn’t been back to the WH since. Such ignorance is not expected from you AZ.
” Trump has a copy of the search warrant and inventory of what items were seized.”
You don’t know that to be true. You assume it and may or may not be correct at this hour, but not when the search occurred. It was a sealed warrant and the attorney at MAL stated they did not give it to her. I explained this to Svelaz earlier. Try not to listen to what he says because it will make you look as foolish as him.
” instead cited the 5th Amendment over 440 times.”
More uneducated BS. AZ. Why do you want to sound like the nuts that surround you? Once a person takes the Fifth it is permanent unless he wishes to fully testify. A prosecutor can repeat the same question a million times and the person must repeat that he takes the Fifth a million times. That is why your comment sounds so ignorant. Try to keep your comments rationale based on critical thinking.
“Trump never owned those documents.”
Again, you don’t know that.