In past columns, we have discussed the litany of “slam dunk” crimes that Harvard Law professor Laurence Tribe has declared as established against former President Donald Trump, none of which have been actually charged. Indeed, Tribe appears intent upon running through the entire criminal code. Just for the purposes of keeping score, Tribe declared evidence supporting criminal charges of witness tampering, obstruction of justice, criminal election violations, Logan Act violations, extortion, espionage, attempted murder, and treason by Trump or his family. This week, Tribe insisted on MSNBC that Trump yet again is facing a “slam dunk” criminal conviction over the raid on Mar-a-Lago. While some of us have suggested that we wait to see the actual evidence before evaluating the risk in the case, Tribe again is confident that the still uncharged case has already been made.
Just last month, Tribe declared Trump clearly guilty of the attempted murder of Vice President Mike Pence on January 6, 2021. Tribe again insisted that the case could be prosecuted “without any doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt, and the crimes are obvious.” I guess there is no doubt. There is also no compelling legal basis for the claim. Nevertheless, Tribe promised more if needed: “There are other crimes that have been proven. Those are plenty to start with.”
It is a curious thing that none of these prior “proven” crimes have been charged. After the riot, District of Columbia Attorney General Karl Racine announced that he was considering arresting Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Rudy Giuliani and U.S. Rep. Mo Brooks and charging them with incitement. So what happened to that prosecution? The failure of Racine to charge Trump was not due to any affection or loyalty to the former president. It was due to the paucity of direct evidence of a crime that would hold up in court.
Now, without an indictment or the public disclosure of actual evidence beyond the inventory list, Tribe sees no reason to wait for proof. The evidence is, again, a “slam dunk” for conviction.
While the three criminal provisions cited in the warrant do not require that the documents be classified, the declassification of the documents could make the case more difficult and could raise difficult issues of a president’s inherent declassification authority. As I have previously discussed, we have not seen what Trump refers to as a “standing order” of declassification. However, to the extent that declassification relates to Trump’s intent in possessing these documents, a court could have to grapple with some novel constitutional questions. While a former president loses such inherent authority, Trump is claiming that he declassified the material when he was still president. Tribe dismisses such claims but, again, we have yet to see the alleged order or the specific claims made in past exchanges between the former president and the Justice Department.
Notably, at the start of the interview, Tribe argues against the release of any of the affidavit. While many of us thought the court would likely defer to the Justice Department, it was also clear (in my opinion) that portions could be released. Anyone familiar with these affidavits knows that there are portions that can be released, including sections with information that are already known to the target. We are interested in not only what was presented to the court but how it was presented given the history of the Department in making false or misleading statements in past Trump-related investigations.
Notably, Tribe also insisted that any release would “violate important rules on grand jury secrecy.” The problem is that we have not heard of any grand jury on the Mar-a-Lago matter. This was a warrant sought from the court based on probable cause of possible criminal offenses. There also has been no suggestion that the warrant incorporated material from other grand juries like the ongoing January 6th grand jury. Ironically, if Tribe has been given such information from sources, it would likely be a Rule 6(e) violation. Moreover, if this warrant is an attempt to acquire evidence for a separate investigation, it would contradict the public statements of the Justice Department that this was prompted to protect national defense information.
Tribe added that ” this man . . . I was going to call him ‘traitor’ but that is not quite right it is not treason.” Actually, Tribe previously suggested that Trump was a traitor and could be charged with treason.
Tribe has, of course, never lacked confidence that his lengthening list of crimes have been proven “without any doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt.” He is not alone in such hair-triggered analysis. It has been the signature of much of the legal analysis in the last six years. Yet, it would be useful. . . just once . . . if only for appearances . . . to start with the release of actual evidence before discussing slam dunk convictions.
Whatever happened to “Innocent before Guilty” ?
The FBI and the DOJ killed it.
Another slam dunk?
That is what? The 10th? The 34th? The 101st?
That is why it is called “Slam Bunk”…same ‘ol same ‘ol. The best idea: “The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.”
Know what would be a slam dunk?
Hunter Biden lying on the ATF 4473, section 21, part e: “Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?”
Yet, nothing.
A flagrant display of a two tire justice system.
In a country of laws, the legal profession is the living bulwark of those laws against the passions of the times. Thus, the intellectual honesty and temperance of lawyers is a support of freedom, as tyrants recognize. [“The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.” Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2] Academics like Tribe, who increase the level of our frenzy, undermine the profession.
RE:”” Academics like Tribe, who increase the level of our frenzy, undermine the profession.” What we read here, and else where, is that those of his ilk are ‘training’ the legal profession of the future, witness the UVA student, quoted in italics, somewhere in this conversational morass, who noted that she would be attending law school. I am not confident that, by the end of this century, if not sooner, we will not have a legal profession in stark opposition to the basic tenets which created our Constitution.
We’ve a ‘Harvard brat’ of our own who has evolved into a narcissistic effete snob of an adult, He married, and ultimately divorced a woman whom he met when both were students there. A wack-job in her own right, B.A., M.S.W., PhD notwithstanding. I regard Harvard and the rest of that ‘club’ as the wellspring of everything having the potential to wreck us. Too smart and ‘all that’ for their own good with the false impression that anything and everything they say is important. NOT!!
Since Laurence Tribe is what passes for a, “Harvard Law professor”, Then Harvard in and of itself needs to close its doors. Because Tribe is truly, a village—idiot.
+1000000000000000000000
Disgraceful that this man purported to have “taught law” at Harvard — and telling that he was perennially on the Democrat short list for SCOTUS picks. It’s not about equal application of the law in a nation that is supposed to be founded upon the rule of law, it’s about pushing an agenda. Anybody or anything who gets in the way of that agenda (including CLS, CRT, etc.) must be destroyed by any means necessary.
Jonathan wrote, “Tribe has, of course, never lacked confidence that his lengthening list of crimes have been proven “without any doubt, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond any doubt.” He is not alone in such hair-triggered analysis. It has been the signature of much of the legal analysis in the last six years. Yet, it would be useful. . . just once . . . if only for appearances . . . to start with the release of actual evidence before discussing slam dunk convictions.”
Be honest Jonathan, it’s not just Tribe that’s regressed to this immoral tactic of pure accusational propaganda, it’s the 21st century political left at large that want’s to bypass the the entire justice system and the constitution in favor of screaming ignorant accusatory nonsense in the town square so they can publicly smear those they hate (yes hate) in the court of public opinion, this is how they aim to destroy the lives of their targets without any facts whatsoever. Guilt by accusation and implication is all these immoral people need to justify their ends justifies the means primary tactic, these people are enemies of the people. It’s as if the political left at large thinks that all Republicans and conservatives are wearing an equivalent to the Star of David making them justifiable targets of the left’s modern day brown shirt like persecution army. Democrats have shown us over the last 15+ years, and especially over the last 6+ years, that the justice system and the constitution are nothing but annoyances that interfere with “progressives” (that’s an oxymoron, they’re actually immorally regressive) and their goal to politically, socially and culturally dominate the USA with their totalitarian, hive-minded, regressive immoral ideology.
Remember the 21st century regressive Democrat’s four tenets of “truth”…
1. The Democrats are right.
2. Everyone else is wrong.
3. Wrong is evil.
4. Evil must to be destroyed.
…that’s the dead end of the 21st century regressive Democrat’s ability to think critically.
Witherspoon,
“ Guilt by accusation and implication is all these immoral people need to justify their ends justifies the means primary tactic, these people are enemies of the people.”
Funny you mention that given that Turley and all republicans do this on a daily basis. Hunter Biden is guilty of crimes based on accusations and implication, so is Hillary or Obama.
The sheer ignorance and irony of your post speaks volumes about the amount of cognitive dissonance affecting the right and “law professors” like Turley.
You make a LOT of assumptions based on that cognitive dissonance and often it’s mere projection onto others for what the right does every day.
“Screaming ignorant accusatory nonsense” as you put it is a long cherished tradition of of the right.
Trump is certainly in a lot of trouble and the only way to put it into context is if you substitute “Trump” with “Hillary”, “Obama”, or “Biden”. Do you think that if any of them had been accused what Trump has been doing that you would rationally conclude that they did NOT commit a crime or broke the law?
Would you honestly be able to brush it off as easily as you do with Trump?
Many on the right bring up Hillary and the private server issue that according to them she should have been sent to prison. Trump obviously is in bigger trouble since the sensitive classified documents are the most secret the government has was found in his possession when he was not supposed to have it. Shouldn’t the right be calling for Trump to be sent to prison as well?
Witherspoon, then why aren’t you demanding that Trump be prosecuted or be “locked up”?
It didn’t stop you from making such demands when it involved Hillary or Biden. Where are the accusations of Trump’s criminal deeds like the right does with Hunter Biden or Hillary?
You just accused the “left” of engaging in the exact same accusatory tactics the right employs and that includes Turley.
Are you then whitewashing Trump’s problems while blaming the left? It sure seems like it.
Svelaz,
Exactly what part of end of discussion and “FO troll” did you NOT understand?
Apparently all of it.
Witherspoon,
You just can’t bring you self to admit the obvious hypocrisy that is being propagated by the right.
Instead of just acknowledging that there is indeed a problem you relegate yourself to childish tantrums.
Is it THAT difficult to just acknowledge the fact that what many on the right were calling Hillary or Biden a criminal or guilty because of the accusations and insinuations? By that very same standard Trump should be accused of being a criminal and guilty of breaking the law.
Your protestations and general ambivalence suggests you agree they should be calling out Trump a criminal because he’s engaging in the very same behavior that the right accused Hillary and Biden of.
There is a difference: Clinton, Obama, and Biden appear to be immune to scrutiny, despite a lot of evidence that would seem to point in the direction of warranted investigation – including, in at least the cases of Clinton and Hunter Biden, admissions from their own mouths. Trump, OTOH, has been the target of investigation (and public castigation presented as fact, not on the opinion pages, by the national news media among many others) since the escalator.
Does that dichotomy make some primarily individual – not national news, not “paper of record” – voices short-circuit the process in their rhetoric, jumping straight to “She’s guilty of treason!”? Yes – but if we’re going to engage in whataboutism, it seems to me that it’s incumbent on your side, Svelaz, to show how bloggers’ accusations against Clinton, Obama, and Biden are equivalent to actual FBI investigations and, now, a raid against Trump.
Jamie,
“ There is a difference: Clinton, Obama, and Biden appear to be immune to scrutiny, despite a lot of evidence that would seem to point in the direction of warranted investigation – including, in at least the cases of Clinton and Hunter Biden, admissions from their own mouths.”
Have there not been countless investigations by republicans on the Clintons? They’ve been subjected to literally a decade of partisan investigations. All of which found nothing or at least mere policy violations. When one investigation failed to yield the results they wanted they started another and another, all looking for that illegal act or crime they thought was that they committed.
Clinton,Obama, or Biden were not immune to scrutiny. They were all scrutinized by republicans all the time. Because they couldn’t find anything to pin them down it seems according to republicans that they are guilty of something. Because they didn’t find anything.
Trump is being subjected to the very same scrutiny that they did. The distinction lies in the fact that Trump and his supporters are incredulous at the idea that THEY can also be scrutinized. Therein lies the hypocrisy of the right. That’s a point often lost on the right when they are directly confronted with such hypocrisy.
“Witherspoon, then why aren’t you demanding that Trump be prosecuted or be “locked up”?”
Because Trump did not steal classified documents, because he did not share them with potentially every hacker in the world.
Because there is no credible claim that Trump actually committed a crime.
“it didn’t stop you from making such demands when it involved Hillary or Biden.”
Because there is more tha sufficient credible evidence that Hillary and the Biden’s committed crimes.
Because whether criminal or not the conduct of the Biden’s is repugnant and corrupt, and despite 6 years of effort nothing even close has been found regarding Trump.
” Where are the accusations of Trump’s criminal deeds like the right does with Hunter Biden or Hillary?”
What does this mean ?
“You just accused the “left” of engaging in the exact same accusatory tactics the right employs and that includes Turley.”
Nope,
People are accused of crimes by the left and the right and just in general all the time.
Sometimes those accusations are credible, sometimes they are not.
Regardless, all accusations are not equal. Those with significant high quality evidence and clear violation of the law are most credible, and those with little evidence and ambiguous law are not.
Those made by people who have a long reputation of being correct and accurate are more credible than those from people who do have a reputation for false claims.
The FBI office driving this investigation is the same one deeply involved in the collusion delusion.
To a very large extent it is the same people. It is people who either lied on a FISA warrant or turned a blind eye to others who did.
Many of us want the Afaffadavit – and we want it NOW!!!! Because we have a very high degree of confidence that it is the same pile of schiff that was used in the Carter Page warrant. And we are not interested in wasting another 6 years before it is funally exposed as fraud.
I have little doubt the affadavit will be damning. What is relevant is whether it is truthful.
Frankly it is far more important to publicly get to the bottom of all of this NOW!!! than it is to send anyone to jail.
The public interest is not best served by Jailing a 76 year old after years of investigation.
The public interest is best served by knowing the truth now.
Publicly expose that Trump is an actual criminal. Provide compelling evidence he stole classified documents or is providing classified documents to foreign powers – and Trump is toast forever. He will not run again, and everyone will flee him quickly.
But most americans are not expecting that. The majority of americans are more suspicious of the DOJ/FBI/Biden admin than Trump. And rightly so.
If as is suspected this is a political witch hunt – everyone associated with this MUST resign or be fired.
In fact everyone not bowing the whistle on this must resign or be fired.
And the american people should not need to wait 4 more years to find out which is true.
I would further note that I am hard pressed to think of an actual case against Trump that would actually be undermined by exposure to sunlight. The entire claim that exposing this would interfere with the investigation inherently means there never was sufficient evidence for a warrant in the first place. Either there is a crime or these is not.
If there is exposing the affadavit is unlikely to alter DOJ’s abiliy to prosecute. And if it does ? So what Hillary got away with criminal conduct scott free. The key difference will be that – despite obvious Criminal conduct – tens of millions of demcrats still voted for Clinton. With similar evidence against Trump – prosecuted or not – he is done for.
Unlike democrats – republicans do hold their leaders to higher standards of conduct.
We KNOW what Clinton did – and you voted for her.
We KNOW that the Biden family has been selling Joe’s office for decades – and yet you voted for him.
Few republicans will vote for Trump if you ever establish that he likely committed an actual crime.
Democrats have voted for people who inarguably are crooked.
Are you then whitewashing Trump’s problems while blaming the left? It sure seems like it.
All right Stevie!
Hunter Biden is guilty based on documented evidence. We have an undisputed true copy of the form, we have his documented drug abuse.
Everything else is disputable. Highly suspicious but disputable nonetheless.
Ti317,
Problem is nobody is ever prosecuted for lying on the ATF form. Many people say he’s guilty, but that’s not actually true in the legal sense because he’s never been charged or been found guilty. It’s all thanks, ironically, to the NRA and the uselessness of trying people for lying on ATF forms.
“ Lying on the form is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. For being a user of unlawful drugs in possession of a firearm, the punishment is up to five years. The odds of being charged for lying on the form are virtually nonexistent. In the 2019 fiscal year, when Hunter Biden purchased his gun, federal prosecutors received 478 referrals for lying on Form 4473 — and filed just 298 cases. The numbers were roughly similar for fiscal 2020. At issue is when Biden answered “no” on the question that asks about unlawful drug use and addiction when purchasing a gun. Biden had been discharged five years earlier from the Navy Reserve for drug use and based on his 2021 memoir, he was actively using crack cocaine in the year he bought the gun. The data do not show how many people might have been prosecuted for falsely answering the question about active drug use. A 1990 Justice Department study noted how difficult it was to bring cases against people who falsely answer questions on the form, especially because there is no paper trail for drug abusers like there is for felons.”
https://www.ncja.org/crimeandjusticenews/few-prosecutions-for-lying-on-atf-gun-purchase-form
“Funny you mention that given that Turley and all republicans do this on a daily basis. Hunter Biden is guilty of crimes based on accusations and implication, so is Hillary or Obama.”
We all have the actual evidence regarding Clinton, thousands of classified documents magically migrated from the state department SCIF to here bathroom basement mail server. Clinton did not have unilateral declassification authority.
Therefore the removal of those classified documents from secure govenrment control was a violation of the espionage act.
At the time it was noted that Obama had done the same – on a much smaller scale. But while embarrasing it was not a crime – because Obama was president.
There is however plenty to investigate regarding Obama – there is lots of evidence that Obama was a participant in the collusion delusion and the entrapment of Flynn and instigating the attempted coup of Trump. Absolute beyond a reasonable doubt proof ?
No, but more than enough to further investigate.
There is plenty to investigate regarding the Biden’s. It is self evidence they make their money – like most elected officials. by selling political influence. No one is paying hunter Biden for his expertise on oil, or indian affairs,
Basis for conviction – of somethings probably. Basis for investigation – absolutely.
“The sheer ignorance and irony of your post speaks volumes about the amount of cognitive dissonance affecting the right and “law professors” like Turley.
You make a LOT of assumptions based on that cognitive dissonance and often it’s mere projection onto others for what the right does every day.”
Look in the mirror.
It is hillarious watching the purveyors of the collusion delusion or russian disinformation conspiracy who are still telling us inflation is transitory or we are not in a recession – telling those who have been right about pretty much everything that they are suffereing from cognative disonance.
Reality is the test of judgement and credibility, and the people you insult have been tested and found credible.
While you and those your fawn over have been tested and found wanting.
“Trump is certainly in a lot of trouble”
Then lets expose the affadavit – everything – no redactions at all. And lets test the claims. NOW – not in 6 more years.
If Trump did something illegal – it is done and that can be proven NOW. If he was going to do something, that has been thwarted.
Right now we are ALL entitled to know everything. We are entitled to know who is crooked – because with certainty either Trump is or DOJ/FBI is – and so far the evidence is against the DOJ/FBI.
“and the only way to put it into context is if you substitute “Trump” with “Hillary”, “Obama”, or “Biden”. Do you think that if any of them had been accused what Trump has been doing that you would rationally conclude that they did NOT commit a crime or broke the law?”
Clinton did far worse that what Trump is accused of, and never was indicted – much less raided.
“Would you honestly be able to brush it off as easily as you do with Trump?”
If Biden or Obama, or Clinton had their lives toren apart for 6 years by the DOJ/FBI/SC and the press accross the world, and the results established that the DOJ/FBI/SC were corrupt – then yes, I would be reluctant to believe allegations against them.
But that is not the case.
“Many on the right bring up Hillary and the private server issue that according to them she should have been sent to prison. Trump obviously is in bigger trouble since the sensitive classified documents are the most secret the government has was found in his possession when he was not supposed to have it. Shouldn’t the right be calling for Trump to be sent to prison as well?”
Svelaz – you are ignorant of the facts.
We know nothing about the one TS/SCI document Trump allegedly had – including whether it was actually classified.
We know nothing about the 4 TS documents Trump allegedly had.
We know nothing about the additional 6 classified documents Trump had.
We know that Hillary has atleast a dozen TS code word only documents – that is higher than TS/SCI.
That she had hunderds of TS and above documents,
and thousands of classified documents.
We do not know how the Trump documents got to MAL – and that is important beccause mere posession is not a crime.
We do not know if Trump brought them while president or GSA brought them from the whitehouse – neither of which would be crimes.
We know that every classified document Clinton had Was removed by her or her staff at her direction from the state department SCIF. We know that Clinton did not have declassification authority. That she did not have the authority to take classified documents to her home – Presidents and vice presidents do. We know that a crime was committed transfering those documents to her bathroom basement mail server.
We also know that reckless handling of classified documents is a crime.
Locking a dozen paper documents in a SCIF is not a crime.
Pleacing thousands of electronic documents on a mail server on the internet that can easily be hacked is a crime.
The FACTS are radically different.
Fake John B. Say,
“ Clinton did not have unilateral declassification authority.”
Neither did Trump. Presidents don’t have unilateral declassification authority. There’s a required paper trail and records noting the declassification. Trump as president and this includes ANY president does not have the authority to unilaterally declassify TS/SCI secrets. That’s never declassified for any reason. It’s obvious Trump is lying because nobody had produced this “standing order” he talks about.
“ We know that Hillary has atleast a dozen TS code word only documents – that is higher than TS/SCI.
That she had hunderds of TS and above documents,
and thousands of classified documents.”
Here’s where you show everyone that you are just making stuff up. TS/SCI is the highest classification. Not TS. Hillary didn’t have that on her server. If Hillary kept some classified documents on the server they were in relation to her job. Keep in mind that she still had her security clearance at the time. Trump didn’t. He wasn’t trusted with classified briefings after he left the White House. None of the documents he had belonged to him by law. So if you think Hillary should have been in prison for her negligence Trump should too. Especially when he had the highest level of classified documents in a storage room with a padlock instead of a secure facility with multiple security layers.
“ We also know that reckless handling of classified documents is a crime.
Locking a dozen paper documents in a SCIF is not a crime.”
Locking a dozen paper documents that do not belong to Trump IS a crime. It’s called theft.
That falls under the purview of reckless handling.
“ We know that every classified document Clinton had Was removed by her or her staff at her direction from the state department SCIF. We know that Clinton did not have declassification authority.
They were emails you moron. They were not “removed”. They were part of her communications regarding her job. She had a secure server and it was never hacked. It was a policy violation. Which is why she couldn’t be charged with a crime. Trump is in actual violation of a federal law. Not a policy.
Based on your own rationale Trump should be in jail because he violated the law just as Hillary did according to you.
Even Turley agrees that Trump didn’t have a right to those papers. Especially the TS/SCI documents.
“Neither did Trump. Presidents don’t have unilateral declassification authority. There’s a required paper trail and records noting the declassification. Trump as president and this includes ANY president does not have the authority to unilaterally declassify TS/SCI secrets. That’s never declassified for any reason. It’s obvious Trump is lying because nobody had produced this “standing order” he talks about.”
Not a single word of this is constitutionally, legally or factually correct.
Presidents have unilateral declassification authority – that has ALWAYS been true.
The requirements for classification and declassification are determined BY THE PRESIDENT, and they do not apply to the president only others. The Actual exceuctive orders – by Clinton, Bush and Obama state precisely that.
As does the constitution.
TS/SCI secrets are declassified all the time – and again Read the Clinton, Bush and Obama EO’s.
Further I already linked to several instances of Obama declassifying nuclear “secrets”
From the DOJ web page on declassification.
“IS SENSITIVE COMPARTMENTED INFORMATION (SCI) SUBJECT TO AUTOMATIC DECLASSIFICATION?
Yes. SCI is subject to automatic declassification unless specifically exempted by an approved file series exemption or declassification guide. All SCI information will be referred to the appropriate member(s) of the Intelligence Community for declassification action.”
https://www.justice.gov/archives/open/declassification/declassification-faq
Courts have already ruled that Tweets by Trump (or before Obama) as well as others in government are binding government orders. Atleast 3 people have come forward confirming Trump’s “standing order”.
Further we still do not know what these documents actually are, But Trump has REPEATEDLY and PUBLICLY ordered everything associated with the collusion delusion declassified. WaPo and NYT have reported this on many occasions.
Trump has publicly declassified MANY other documents. and with near certainty privately declassified far more than what he has noted publicly.
I have not merely rebutted,
I have FALSIFIED every single claim you have made about his.
Something is a “lie” when you know it is wrong and say it anyway.
If you continue to repeat this nonsense about classified information, having been informed – not by my oppinion,
But be actual facts,
by Presidential EO’s,
by media stories confirming declassification by the president of nuclear information.
By the DOJ website outlining the procedure to declassify TS/SCI material.
Rebut these – with FACTS,
if you do not continuing to repeat these claims is LYING.
Something is not true just because you wish it to be.
Finally – it is likely you have gotten these idiotic false ideas from some other sources.
I doubt you thought this nonsense up on your own.
If you have a whit of intelligence you would now KNOW these people are WRONG and likely LYING to you.
A wise person would no longer trust people who have lied to them repeatedly.
“Locking a dozen paper documents that do not belong to Trump IS a crime. It’s called theft.
That falls under the purview of reckless handling.”
Again wrong on every point.
thĕft: The unlawful taking of the property of another.
Theft is an act. Posession is not an act.
You have not established these documents were unlawfully taken.
You have not established that these documents do not belong to Trump.
The JW/Clinton case establishes they are Trump’s property.
Regardless, they were the presidents to do as he pleased while president.
While president.
If he moved them to MAL – not theft.
If he ordered someone to move them to MAL – not theft.
If GSA moved them on their own – not theft.
If is only theft if AFTER jan 20,2021 Trump removed them from the whitehouse.
Locking up top secret paper documents is not reckless – whether they are legally or illegally possessed
Puting them on an internet server is reckless – whether they are legally or illegally possessed.
“They were emails you moron.”
False an irrelevant.
The Clinon TS information was removed from the State Deparment SCIF. There are no computers in the State department SCIF that are not air gapped from the internet.
While it is possible to “email” a TS document – from one Secure computer to another – that does not involve the internet at all ever. Anytime a classified document appears in an “email” that is NOT part o fthe Federal governments secure air gapped network – a crime has been committed.
If the Trump documents are actually classified – and Trump put them on the internet – after Jan 20,2021 – then he committed a crime.
“They were not “removed”.”
Completely false. In more than one instance she Faxed herself classified douments to her home where her maid retreived them.
Regardless there is no way to get a classified document onto an internet connected email server that is not a crime.
“They were part of her communications regarding her job.”
Also false. These documents were sent to many people – among them Sydney Blumenthal who had no security clearance and who Obama refused to allow into his administration – because of Bluemnthal’s role in starting the Birther nonsense.
And Yes, the Birther nonsense started with CLINTON – not Trump.
“She had a secure server and it was never hacked.”
Nope Comey later testified that information on her bathroom basement email server was being accessed in real time by atleast one hostile foreign government. Most beleive that was China.
“It was a policy violation.”
Nope it was a crime.
“Which is why she couldn’t be charged with a crime.”
Nope, Comey Litterally said she could not be prosecuted becase a DC Jury would not convict her.
Here is Comey’s press conference.
While there are a few things MISSING – the penetration by foreign govenrments was established later,
as was the fact that signifcant portions of Clinton’s emails were repeatedly backed up on a variety of other peoples computers – including the infamous huma abedin/Anthony Weiner laptop that had litterally 700,000 Clinton emails on – basically about 60K emails backed up many many many times.
The Weiner laptop further found MORE government emails that have not be recovered.
Also NOT addressed in Comey’s press conference i HOW this classified material got into Clinton;’s emails.
Comey notes that many of Clinton’s communications were subsequently upclassified or did not include classified marks.
MUCH of this is Clinton Chosing to use an insecure public system to communicate material that she knew or should have known was classified.
This is not Clinton stealing classified documents, it is her reading or otherwise being aware of classified information as a consequence of her role, and then typing that information into the email on her own – thousands of times.
This is a crime. but it is correct that Sec State Powell and Sec. State Rice had done so in the past also – beut not even close to the scale Clinton had.
Regardless, in those instances Clinton’s mind is the transport mechanism – she read or otherwise was aware of classified information and she wrote it into am email.
Every single person who ever receives a securtity clearance is trained to NOT DO THIS – it is potientially a crime.
As I said that is the Bulk of Clinton classified information. But it is not ALL.
Many actual classified documents were found in here emails – verbatum or near verbatum copies of actually classified documents – not Clinton’s mental recall of classified information – but actual copies.
There is only one means these documents can get into her emails – in some way they were STOLEN from the State Department SCIFF. Either she or her employees – brought cell phones into the SCIF and photographed screens, or they printed documents in the SCIF and snuck them out, or they hand wrote the contents of the documents from the classified terminals.
Each and every one of those acts is a Crime, and probably about 10% of Clinton’s classified material got to her email server by that route.
https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/27/china-hacked-clinton-server/
https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system
“Trump is in actual violation of a federal law. Not a policy.”
Trump is not in violation of either a law or policy.
“Based on your own rationale Trump should be in jail because he violated the law just as Hillary did according to you.”
Nope, Clinton – both by stealing – and by transmitting classified information to people who were not entitled to receive it on networks that were insecure compromised classified information.
Trump – with near certainty legally posessed information that may or may not have been classified and was regardless secure.
There is no claim that Trump ever shared actually classified information while NOT president with anyone not cleared to receive it. In fact there is no claim Trump shared the retrieved documents with anyone. Todate there is no claim Trump himself accessed any of those documents since leaving the WH.
There are a number of things we do not know. What we do know is not a crime. OF what we do not know – very few possibiliites result in a crime and none a tiny fraction as serious as Clinton’s
“Even Turley agrees that Trump didn’t have a right to those papers. Especially the TS/SCI documents.”
First, you do not know the papers were classified. You just know that DOJ/FBI claim they were.
One of the reasons we need massive transparency is specifically because of what we do not know, and because DOJ/FBI are not trustworthy. We can not accept the word of people who have repeatedly tried to frame Trump that these documents are classified.
But lets assume they were – ex-presidents are cleared to access anything – constrained ONLY by specific denials by the current president. Do you have any evidence that Biden denied Trump any classified information ?
Please actually read the Obama Executive order on classified documents – instead of whatever idiot you are following.
I have no idea what Turley agreed, and I do not trust you – as you can not get anything correct.
All that we actually know is that a handful of documents that DOJ/FBI claims were classified were found at MAL.
We do not know how they got there – and every single likely means would be legal. We do not know that even Trump accessed them – even though he could have legally – even if they were classified. We do not know whether these documents were declassified by presidential order – as everything related to the collusion delusion was. Or defato declassified,
or never declassified or never actually classified.
Given that the FBI has lied repeatedly before, they can not be beleived now. They most prove their case to all of us.
In fact it is far more important that we establish the extent of political corruption in DOJ/FBI than that we convict Trump if he committed a crime.
If Biden ordered this – by the precedent of Trump impeachment I – then that is impeachable. Presidents can not seek investigations of political rivals – so the democratic house has told us.
If these documents are Collusion Delussion related – we are seeing the FBI/DOJ used to coverup malfeasance – that is a crime.
If these documents are actually declassified – then this raid is at best incompetent, and at worst poltical.
We do not even know that these documents were not planted – and given the collusion delusion and the whitmer kidnapping entrapment – the FBI is not trustworthy – further these are the same agents involved in the collusion delusion – with a few from the Whitmer entrapment. So we have the most political least trustworthy people with an axe to grind against Trump
And you are saying – we must trust them ?
We already know the NARA claim was BS.
We need to know ALL the facts NOW. We need a trustworthy third party to assess the purported classified documents, and address a long list of questions about them.
10 years ago – most of us would have trusted the FBI – not a chance today.
Remember the 21st century regressive Republicans’ four tenets of “truth”…
1. The Republicans are right.
2. Everyone else is wrong.
3. Wrong is evil.
4. Evil must to be destroyed.
…that’s the dead end of the 21st century regressive Republicans’ ability to think critically.
This is as true as your claim about Democrats (hint: both are counterproductive overgeneralizations).
There is no doubt Tribe has a brilliant legal mind. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Anonymous wrote, “There is no doubt Tribe has a brilliant legal mind.”
I know you were being facetious but I have to I rate this statement as false.
There is serious doubt that “Tribe has a brilliant legal mind” after the many, many fact-less and anti-constitution Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) pure propaganda statements he’s made over the last 6+ years. Two things have become very clear to me about Tribe over the last 6+ years:
1. No one that is a “brilliant legal mind” and actually understands how the law, the constitution and justice actually work would ever resort to the pure propaganda nonsense like Tribe has done.
2. It’s become very clear to me that Tribe could easily be used as the poster child for either of these phrases, “TDS makes you stupid” or “bias makes you stupid”.
Here’s what happens to a mind infected with TDS…
https://stevewitherspoonhome.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/ethicsflush.jpg
Maybe, but see the November 19, 2010 issue of the ABA Journal.
Catherine,
Please provide a link.
In response to Steve Witherspoon:
https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/laurence_tribe_leaves_white_house_job_cites_symptoms_of_brain_tumor
Thanks for the link Catherine.
I didn’t know that about Tribe.
Maybe this “TDS has made him stupid” is being seriously exacerbated by that medical condition; but regardless of why he’s turned stupid, Tribe needs to stop spewing his irrational nonsense, completely remove himself from the public eye if he’s really having medical related issues regarding critical thinking and lastly the media needs to stop giving this irrational man a soapbox to spew to spew his irrational nonsense from. The media is fully employing “the ends justify the means” with their continuing use of Tribe for any legal analysis of anything related to Trump.
Prosecution? No, only Persecution of a President of the people by the most corrupt individuals in government.
Mr Tribe would have made a great prosecuting attorney during the “Reign of Terror”, or during the “Dreyfus Affair”. I guess Professor Turley will have to serve as the American Version of Emile Zola. Good luck!
The reluctance to prosecute Trump is similar to reluctance to prosecute any cult leader when some of the cult members could be on the jury or even be the judge. Like trying to convict a Scientology leader of a crime with a Scientologist judge and Scientologists on the jury. It does not matter what evidence is brought, these jury members will refuse to see it.
Of course George voted for Hillary in 2016 and Biden in 2022, both proven, known and obvious criminals.
To quote you, “Imagine stating, as fact … that someone, anyone, has committed a crime that has not even been charged.”
Apparently it’s OK as long as you’re the one doing the stating.
Isn’t that what voir dire is for? IANAL, but that’s my understanding, anyway…
And is it your contention that 80,000,000 Americans are members of a cult? Come on.
If not all of those who voted for Trump, how many, then? What proportion? If the only reason not to prosecute Trump is because one or more “cult members” might slip through the voir dire process, nullify the jury, and result in an waste of taxpayer money, then doesn’t it seem to you that Trump’s alleged crimes maybe aren’t all that heinous?
I mean, if they were so heinous, wouldn’t you at least have to try?
How much can HARVARD take of this BUFFOON before he gets shut down a la STELTER ? CLOWN SHOES JURIST
Tribe is an example of how TDS makes otherwise smart people stupid.
Just read many of the lefties on this blog.
Larry has a brain tumor and it shows. Leave the old gas bag alone.
https://abovethelaw.com/2008/01/larry-tribe-has-a-brain-tumor/
Trump was caught with classified nuclear data. His crimes are clear. If this was anyone else he would be in jail already.
Slammed Sammy:
Prove it.
The warrant application cover sheet — which has now been unsealed — only says “national defense information,” not “nuclear data.” Best not to pretend to know things we don’t know.
Sammy has that one superpower known to Democrats and media people, the ability to remain shameless. Imagine stating, as fact ala Schiff, that someone, anyone, has committed a crime that has not even been charged.
Like Trump did with Clinton?
RE:”Like Trump did with Clinton?..” Seriously!?!?!? Should we now roll out the complete ‘Clinton[s] Charmin’ in rebuttal? Or perhaps how Harry Reid blew up Romney’s 2012 candidacy with a little ‘fiction’.“Well, they can call it whatever they want,” Reid said. “Romney didn’t win, did he?” Swalwell, notwithstanding having enjoyed a bit of Chinese poontang with a CCP infiltrator, yet sits on the Intelligence Committee with the approval of the House Speaker, a ‘piece of work’ in her own right. The entire political landscape is littered with ‘like somebody did with somebody’ and ‘what abouts.’ These scumbags crap all over each other as well as their constituencies, are never held accountable, and are returned to DC laughing all the way to the proverbial bank.
ZZDoc, I take it that you don’t agree with hullbobby’s opinion that people shouldn’t “stat[e] as fact … that someone, anyone, has committed a crime that has not even been charged.”
RE:”ZZDoc, I take it that you don’t agree with hullbobby’s opinion that people shouldn’t “stat[e] as fact … that someone, anyone, has committed a crime that has not even been charged.” I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion! I take issue with ‘the whataboutists’ and ‘the somebody did to somebodyists’ who have nothing more in rebuttal. What has not yet been learned, in some quarters, is that the ‘Russia Gate’ debacle, in all its sundry incarnations, should have reminded us that ‘something is ALWAYS rotten in Denmark.. It’s a virus for which there will never be a vaccine, It infects any individual who seeks to swim in the cesspool which is politics. The citizenry which remains blind to this blight are their lawful prey. Best to remain circumspect until ‘incontrovertible evidence’ is revealed and, as well, to be prepared for same to be proved fiction. To trust as valid only that which can be seen with one’s own eyes. THAT has been the lesson of recent history.
Well said ZZ!
ZZdoc;
“The entire political landscape is littered with ‘like somebody did with somebody’ and ‘what abouts.’ These scumbags crap all over each other as well as their constituencies, are never held accountable, and are returned to DC laughing all the way to the proverbial bank.”
***************************************
Saying “everybody does it” is surrender. Pointing it out is better. Doing something effective about it is best.
Like Trump did with Clinton?
President Trump is quoting Comey. He listed the crimes and elements to support the crime. There is plenty of case law to back up the conclusion.
“Lock her up” isn’t quoting Comey.
Clinton did commit a many many many crimes – and there is plenty of evidence.
“Imagine stating, as fact ala Schiff, that someone, anyone, has committed a crime that has not even been charged.”
How do you know?
Notably, Tribe also insisted that any release would “violate important rules on grand jury secrecy.”
This sentence stuck out to me also.
It is such a great example of outright lies. The warrant never states Grand Jury predicate for justification. Tribe has so beclowned himself, no person takes him or the venue, serious. I imagine msnbc just handed him a script and a check.
Proof that lies are required to push the Democrat Part Narrative. Speaking the truth is counterproductive to their goal.
Tribe is nothing more than an attention whore with a law degree….
So is Turley. Two peas in a pod, despite the differences in their slants.
“Anonymous’, why go to and comment on someone you don’t respect’s site? This is a sickness, the likes of which we haven’t seen since Jeff Silberman left the arena. I have noticed over the years an odd personality quirk that makes people be contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian and the one common denominator is that they always have no friends, no social life and almost always no spouse or partner. Sound familiar “Anonymous”/
Awww, aren’t you sweet.
It sounds like Hullbobby has a point. The likelihood is strong that Anonymous has “no friends, no social life and almost always no spouse or partner. Sound familiar “Anonymous”
Sounds like you’re talking about yourself.
Anonymous, that’s an outrageous statement – and certainly a “minority” view. There are many folks with law degrees who read Professor Turley’s blog on a daily basis who hold him in high esteem. Very disrespectful – the First Amendment notwithstanding!
Some people hold Turley in high esteem. Some people hold Tribe in high esteem. Some people think poorly of Turley. Some people think poorly of Tribe.
Whether it’s ‘outrageous’ or not is a matter of opinion, and we have no way of knowing whether it’s a minority view without taking a random sample survey.
Turley remains a credible constitutional scholar.
Tribe has gone from being one of the most brilliant constitutional scholars of his time to a clown.
Tribe is clearly past his “use-by” date. As I recall he wanted to impeach Trump before his inauguration!
Not only him, but so did many Democrats. Nancy Pelosi / Maxine Waters etc etc etc.
He is clearly past his “use-by” date. If I recall he wanted to impeach Trump before his inauguration!
Yet the media keeps going to these guys for their “expert analysis!”
Of course the media goes to their allies for endorsement within th echo chamber they live in….why would they go elsewhere?
The scientology comment accurately describes the Clinton Russia Gate Investigation where Comey, without authority, declined the prosecution of Clinton when it was the Attorney General’s job to do that.
The TDS sufferers care not for facts, evidence, the law, or anything else in their uncontrollable drive to see Trump undone….no matter the damage to the DOJ, FBI, CIA, NSA, or the People.
They are the treasonous ones in our midst….all of them.