On Wednesday, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit narrowed the order of U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon by allowing the Justice Department to regain access to the roughly 100 classified documents seized among roughly 11,000 documents at Mar-a-Lago. It was not unexpected. As previously discussed, this was the “smart move” by the Justice Department to first seek access to this small group of documents with classified markings, the strongest of its arguments against the order. In the meantime, former President Donald Trump gave a full hour-long interview with Fox’s Sean Hannity, a risky decision in a case with potential criminal charges. In the interview, Trump suggested that he could declassify any or all documents “with a thought.” It is a position likely to further alienate both the Special Master and the appellate court, which have already expressed frustration with the lack of support offered for declassification claims.
Since the night of the Mar-a-Lago raid, many of us have asked for the evidence of such an order. While the government must show a knowing violation (as opposed to classified status), the Trump team has repeatedly declined to produce evidence of such a written or oral order, including any declaration from Trump or staff on such a decision.
The Hannity interview may explain why. In the interview, Trump did not claim any written order and brushed aside any need for any process or even expression of an intent to declassify:
Hannity: “A president has the power to declassify.”
Trump: “Correct.”
Hannity: “You have said on Truth Social, a number of times, you did declassify.”
Trump: “I did declassify yes.”
Hannity: “What was your process to declassify?”
Trump: “There doesn’t have to be a process, as I understand it. You know, there’s different people say different things. As I understand, there doesn’t have to be. If you’re the president of the United States, you can declassify just by saying, ‘It’s declassified.’ Even by thinking about it. Because you are sending it to Mar-a-Lago or where ever you are sending it. There doesn’t have to be a process. There can be a process, but there doesn’t have to be. You’re the president. You make that decision. So when you send it, it is declassified. I declassified everything.”
If a president could declassify with a thought, he could literally declassify every document in the possession of the U.S. government with a constitutional Jedi-like power. No one would know that there was declassification other than the fact the he removed the documents or treated them as declassified.
Trump also appears to be relying on a legal advice defense (as he has with the challenge to the 2020 election and Jan. 6th questions). He makes direct reference to being given different accounts of the controlling law. There are some lawyers who believe that a president has immediate and unlimited authority over classified information. However, Trump is stating that he may not even have to utter a word of declassification to effectively negate the process of declassification as well as the status of documents.
That is clearly not going to go over well with the courts. Special Master Dearie has already lost patience with the Trump team in failing to support declassification claims and, correctly, said that he will proceed under the view that these documents remain classified in the absence of such proof.
At the same time, the 11th Circuit handed down its decision to curtail the earlier Special Master order to allow prosecutors to resume their review of documents marked classified.
Judge Cannon’s order on the classified documents was the most controversial element of her appointment. The former president’s failure to support his declassification claims only magnified the problem with that part of the order. However, the court also noted that “even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them.”
The three-judge panel (which included two Trump appointees) granted the motion for a partial stay and noted that the Trump team offered no countervailing evidence “to undermine the United States’s representation—supported by sworn testimony—that findings from the criminal investigation may be critical to its national-security review.”
The panel stated that “for our part, we cannot discern why Plaintiff would have an individual interest in or need for any of the one-hundred documents with classification markings.”
The panel relied heavily on Department of the Navy v. Egan where the Supreme Court ruled in 1988 that “the protection of classified information must be committed to the broad discretion of the agency responsible, and this must include broad discretion to determine who may have access to it.”
The question now is whether the Justice Department will push forward to seek to challenge the rest of the order and the very basis for the appointment of the Special Master. There are roughly 11,000 documents and 1,800 other items being held from the search on Mar-a-Lago. As I wrote previously,
“The Eleventh Circuit could always go further on its own to strike down the order or indicate unease with the order as a whole but the Justice Department is only seeking a narrow remedy on the strongest claim dealing with classified documents. The decision on the motion pending appeal could give the DOJ an insight on whether the court is willing to go further on a more general rejection of the order.”
This was a very strong opinion, though the panel emphasized that “We stress the limited nature of our review: this matter comes to us on a motion for a partial stay pending appeal. We cannot (and do not) decide the merits of this case.” The Justice Department could elect to take the win and let Dearie proceed with his review (while litigating control or possession before the lower court). Conversely, it could take this strong language as an indication that the panel could be skeptical of the very appointment itself.
What is clear is that the investigation can now proceed with the full use of these classified documents to try to establish knowing violation by either Trump or his aides, including lawyers who certified or stated that there were no further classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
Here is the opinion: 11th Circuit opinion
OT “FBI whistleblower alleges Jan. 6 cases manipulated to create illusion of national crisis”
expense of other crimes, including child sex exploitation.”
AT the same time we are seeing the lefts actions increase crime throughout the nation. Here is one example of many that show up continuously. Not, it is in NYC also spending resources trying to get Trump.
Democrats should be blamed for the increase in crime, murder, rape and child exploitation.
“Sex fiend gets ‘sweet’ deal from Manhattan DA Bragg on teen rape charge — then attacks 5 others: sources
A man accused of raping his teenage relative secured a sweetheart plea deal from Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg — and then went on to allegedly sexually terrorize five people in the Bronx just a month later, The Post has learned.
Justin Washington, 25, was promised a plum 30-day jail sentence, along with five years of probation, after he agreed in August to plead down to a charge of coercion in his Manhattan rape case.
But just a week before he was set to be sentenced Wednesday, Washington allegedly went on a sex-crime spree, attacking four women and a man near the homeless shelter where he was living in the Bronx.”
Cont: https://nypost.com/2022/09/22/sex-fiend-gets-sweet-deal-from-manhattan-da-bragg-on-teen-rape-charge-then-attacks-5-others-sources/?utm_campaign=nypevening&utm_source=sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20220922&lctg=62680bbe38a279b1870b18c5&utm_term=NYP%20-%20Evening%20Update
In unrelated news, in the civil suit brought by Democracy Partners against Project Veritas Action Fund, the jury found PV liable on both counts (unlawful wiretapping and fraudulent misrepresentation) and awarded damages of $120K. Project Veritas says it will appeal.
Project Veritas will appeal and win like it has all the other cases. Here is a quick response “journalism is on trial”.
“The jury effectively ruled investigative journalists owe a fiduciary duty to the subjects they are investigating and that investigative journalists may not deceive the subjects they are investigating. Journalism is on trial, and Project Veritas will continue to fight for every journalist’s right to news gather, investigate, and expose wrongdoing – regardless of how powerful the investigated party may be. Project Veritas will not be intimidated.”
Project Veritas has lost a few cases. Including this one. They might appeal, but that doesn’t guarantee that they will succeed.
There was only one case lost and that was before O’Keefe had money for lawyers and what he did was above board. It was proven on his camera, but not surprisingly the video was deleted by the police. We see corruption but can’t prove it. Likely had he had the funds to hire a good lawyer he wouldn’t have been convicted.
I think in that case Project Veritas wasn’t charged so Project Veritas didn’t lose a case.
Now you can run away or name a case Project Veritas lost.
You are too stupid to know that you should gather your facts together before commenting.
OT:Pennsylvania county sues Dominion Voting Systems over alleged ‘severe anomalies’ in 2020 voter data
County claims “inaccuracy and/or inability to reconcile voter data with votes actually cast and counted.”
Presumably a self deletion by ATS who recently used Jonathan as a new alias.
” don’t you think it’s time to retire the phrase TDS? It’s based on a 2016 abstraction that trump wouldn’t turn out to be as awful a president as people were predicting.”
TDS is running rampant in the Democrat Party.
As far as Trump being awful:
We were petroleum exporters when Biden came to office. Now Biden is using the strategic reserves to keep gas prices down. Not a good job for soon they are going to go up even more.
Inflation was controlled and now it is out of control so from a Trump created excellent environment for economic growth Biden is providing us with a recession.
Trump moved America away from war and made peace in many areas. Today the Russians are threatening to use nuclear weapons in their fight with Ukraine. Anyone anxious for a nuclear war? If you prefer peace don’t vote Democrat.
I could continue but this is enough to prove ATS has TDS and fails at trying to establish new aliases.
It is true that a sitting President can declassify anything, and that there is no formal process for doing so.
The problem is that if that President does not create a paper trail, then he leaves himself or herself open to political activists who will claim the documents were not declassified before leaving office. Without a paper trail, there will be no way to prove when or if they were declassified. Enemies will exploit any vulnerability, so best to minimize them, especially when Democrats control the 3 letter agencies that would investigate the matter.
Karen, that is the check and balance in the system. Political Capital.
Much like the Pardon power. There is a formal process…..all invented by the White House(President). Ignoring the process, still gets exactly the same results, that is immune from any challenge.
Ask yourself, who tells the separate and equal executive branch what to do, when to do it and how to do it.
Answer: The chief executive officer and commander-in-chief.
Oh, and, so long as he strictly adheres to the Constitution, absolutely nobody else.
Under the presumption of inncence until proven guilty, doesn’t the procsecutor need to prove that the documents were NOT declassified ?
It’s a civil case, not a criminal case, and Trump is the plaintiff, not the defendant.
Karen S: Here we go again. TRUMP DID NOT DECLASSIFY THE DOCUMENTS. EVEN IFHE HAD, THEY DID NOT BECOME HIS PERSONAL PROPERTY.. Try reading the 11th Circuit order and Judge Dearie’s opinion if you don’t believe me, instead of falling for whatever crap Hannity, Tucker, Levin and Laura have put out. Trump made up the lie about declassification by mental telepathy, which he refuses to put in the form of a sworn affidavit because it is a lie and his lies are catching up with him. No less than 3 lawyers told him not to take the papers, which became the property of the United States of America at noon on Jan 20, 2021. He took them anyway, refused to return them, lied about returning all of them, and thereby forced the DOJ to get a search warrant.
The problem is not the lack of a paper trail–that’s just a dodge for believers like you. Even Turley doesn’t believe it.
Some of you people are as dumb as a bowl full of Lucky Charms W/no milk!
Ever heard of a guy Kash Patel , among others, that were in the Rm when Trump was De/Classing the Docs in question.
you people might as well just go a ahead & call call Vlad & tell him to nuke you as there’s lil to no intelligent life I can after reading your post & some others. And don’t forget you 8th CV19 Boosters & YOUR Mask.
How much time has been wasted so far on this fruitless Melania Panty raid by the leaders of the DOJ/BIF?
Why has Trump’s legal team not received an affidavit from Kash Patel? Maybe because he does not want to go under oath to make the statements he claims on TV…?
Oky1: if what you say is true, it would be recorded. Remember the Nixon tapes? Everything in the Oval Office is recorded, and has been for decades. The fact that NO recording has been produced should tell you something. NO ONE raided Melania’s panties, either. Trump could have avoided all of this by just not taking the documents in the first place or returning them upon request or in response to the subpoena. He was given plenty of time and opportunities.
All of the related “classified material” is in Real President Donald J. Trump’s cognitive process.
Will the communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) next demand a prefrontal, nay, global lobotomy to remove all classified material?
Will Americans give that, or any of their other preposterous, communist demands a scintilla of audience?
That was double plus bad Estovir, I approve of that Vid’s msg. LOL:)
The US govt idiots can’t hide/blame the Ruskies for their Phk’ups this time, they own it.
Is It Okay To Broach The ‘Q’ Thing?
Donald Trump shared a picture of himself wearing a Q lapel pin, overlaid with the QAnon phrases “The Storm is Coming” and “WWG1WGA,” on his Truth Social account on Monday (Sept. 12). The post was originally shared on Truth Social by an account called “Patriots in Control,” before Trump re-shared it.
In QAnon world, the “storm” is the moment when Trump will reveal his secret plan to dismantle the deep state and the group of elites QAnon followers believe are operating a global child sex trafficking ring. The “storm” will also, they think, trigger Trump’s return to power and the public executions of those who’ve acted against him.
The post comes just weeks after the ex-president went on a QAnon-filled posting spree on Truth Social. “It’s almost like Trump is trying to tell us something,” one popular QAnon influencer wrote, referencing Trump’s increasing embrace of the QAnon conspiracy. Trump’s influence is undeniable.
Telegram channels and message board threads lit up on Monday night with supporters who believed that once again, this was a sign that “it’s happening” and that “there’s certainly no doubt now that Trump is openly endorsing Q.”
Edited From:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/epzbya/trump-support-qanon
……………………………………………………..
On Saturday night Trump appeared at a Youngstown Ohio rally on behalf of Senate candidate J.D. Vance. There Trump gave a speech over music linked to the QAnon movement. Rally attendees responded with raised arms pointing their index fingers. This odd gesture is basically the QAnon salute.
In a recent podcast Trump told Hugh Hewitt that the American people “would not stand for his (Trump’s) indictment”.
Some analysts think Trump is now openly courting Q’Anon as preparation for civil strife if he is indicted (for one of the many cases pending).
The left is clueless as to President Trump. He has the best sense of humor of any President, and almost all politicians, Senator Kennedy for LA is almost as funny
You’ve been punked by President Trump, It it weren’t for the left, Q??? would get no attention at all. I still have no idea who or what Q is or does.
“Q” is the omnipotent menace to United Federation of Planets, especially Captains Picard and Janeway, and others throughout the universe. 🙂
It’s the same Russia, Russia, Russia troll over and over again.
Is it workin’ for ya?
From 10,000 feet, this really seems to be a dispute that does not need to be handled as a criminal matter. A former President left office with boxes of documents he asserts are legitimately his under the PRA. The archivist asserts the former President has in his possession documents that belong to them under NARA. There had been some level of cooperation between the former President and the archivist, and the FBI visited MAL in June on this matter and ordered the documents held at MAL to be locked in the storage room, for now. I presume the FBI had knowledge at that time of classified documents in the storage room. But yet they determined leaving the former President and his team to put a lock on the storage room would mitigate any risk to national security risk. And then all of a sudden (sarc), over a month later, the FBI executes a warrant to conduct a sweeping search of the entire property.
What changed between the FBI’s visit in June and the raid in August? Why a raid at all? Couldn’t they have gotten a court order requiring the former President to have the boxes of documents moved to a neutral secure facility and then have a special master settle the PRA/NARA dispute? And if the special master found documents marked classified, he would order the former President to provide proof of their declassification. And any that remained classified, would be returned to the appropriate agency and/or the archives. Dispute settled. Move on.
That’s what I expect should happen with a non-politicized FBI/DOJ. What happened however is more consistent with weaponized federal agencies sent like the gestapo to destroy a political adversary. And with the current President’s Philadelphia speech, those weaponization tactics are being deployed against any supporters of his political adversary.
Now, back to the trees.
You “understand” several things incorrectly, perhaps because you haven’t read enough of the court documents and/or because you rely on reporting by people like Turley who avoid discussing details.
Trump admitted that some of the documents are covered by the Federal Records Act, not the PRA, so any discussion has to address both.
Trump was subpoenaed for “Any and all documents or writings in the custody or control of Donald J. Trump and/or the Office of Donald J. Trump bearing classification markings including but not limited to the following: Top Secret Secret Confidential Top Secret/SIG/NOFORN/ORCON Top Secret/SI-G/NOFORN Top Secret/HCSO/NOFORN/ORCON Top Secret/HCS-O/NOFORN Top Secret/HCSP/NOFORN/ORCON, Top Secret/HCS-P/NOFORN Top Secret/TK/NOFORN/ORCON Top Secret/TK/NOFORN, Secret/NOFORN, Confidential/NOFORN TS TS/SAP TS/SI-G/NF/OC TS/SI-G/NF TS/HCSO/NF/OC TS/HCS-O/NF TS/HCS-P/NF/OC TS/HCS-P/NF, TS/HCS-P/SI-G TS/HCS-P/SI/TK TS/TKINF/OC, TS/TK/NF S/NF, S/FRD S/NATO S/SI, C, and C/NF.” Here, too, it’s not limited to records subject to the PRA.
Trump failed to turn over more than 100 such documents, and we don’t even know that the Aug. 8 search got all of them in Trump’s possession, as they only searched MaL, when the subpoena wasn’t limited to MaL.
When the FBI “visited MAL in June on this matter,” they did *not* “order the documents held at MAL to be locked in the storage room.” They told Trump to properly secure all of them per https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/isoo-implementing-directive.html, which Trump didn’t do. Not only was the storage room not properly secured, but some of the docs were in Trump’s office. You’re wrong again when you say “they determined leaving the former President and his team to put a lock on the storage room …” That’s not what they said.
You “presume the FBI had knowledge at that time of classified documents in the storage room,” but you shouldn’t, because the DOJ already stated to the court that Corcoran would not allow them to look inside the boxes in the storage room.
You ask “Couldn’t they have gotten a court order requiring the former President to have the boxes of documents moved to a neutral secure facility,” when Trump already disobeyed a subpoena about just that. He was supposed to turn over ALL documents with classified markings. He didn’t do what the law required him to do, but you want them to get another court order for him to disobey.
“if the special master found documents marked classified, he would order the former President to provide proof of their declassification.” No again! He was required to turn them over regardless of whether they’d been declassified.
“What changed between the FBI’s visit in June and the raid in August?”
It appears that one or more whistleblowers let them know for certain that Trump had kept documents that had been subpoenaed and that those documents weren’t properly secured.
You “presume the FBI had knowledge at that time of classified documents in the storage room,” but you shouldn’t, because the DOJ already stated to the court that Corcoran would not allow them to look inside the boxes in the storage room.
That’s interesting. So the FBI didn’t know in June that he had 100 or so documents marked classified?
It appears that one or more whistleblowers let them know for certain that Trump had kept documents that had been subpoenaed and that those documents weren’t properly secured.
Appears, huh? Whistleblowers, right, that must be it. Whatever you do, don’t use the word spy or spies. Anonymous, no doubt. Well that’s convenient. That seems so Third Reich. Especially given the FBI track record over the last 6 years.
I have zero reason to assume that they were spies or to assume that they were anonymous. You seem fond of assuming things you don’t know.
We do know that Trump failed to turn over documents that were subpoenaed.
“FBI didn’t know in June that he had 100 or so documents marked classified”
After months of discussions with Trump’s team, in 1/22 NARA retrieves 15 boxes of Trump WH records from Mar-a-Lago. Theses boxes contained some materials that were part of “SAP”. In 2/22 NARA informs the DOJ that because some of these documents have classified earmarks and asked whether he violated PRA.On 4/29/22 DOJ sent a letter to Trump’s lawyers notifying them that more than 100 classified documents, totaling more than 700 pages, were found in theses boxes FBI needs immediate access because of important national security interests.
You must remember this: A kiss is just a kiss, A sigh is just a sigh, the fundamental things apply: As time goes by. (Casablanca, 1942).
I’m betting for each of those marked documents, exists an extensive document trail of President Trump, sending copies of documents to the originating agency to declassify. Documents from that agency sending them back with far too many redactions, and the President returning them telling them which lines must have the redactions removed. The originating agency slow walking the process until Jan 21,2021
Proof the originating agency was participating in a fraud against the US govt. I let the originating agency (in this case the FBI, the same agency that issued a general search warrant in violation of the 4th amendment rights, explain their actions, refusing to follow the orders of the Executive.)
I’m betting that you’re wrong.
What ATS is really betting on is that time will pass and everyone will forget he was wrong on almost all issues involving Trump. Time has passed and the proof is in, ATS WAS WRONG!
Ask ATS to state what his argument is. It will be different from a few weeks ago and with time the bulk of his argument WILL BE FOUND TO BE WRONG.
Olly, you posted too much lately. that I rule out you missed online news last six years!
Donald Trump was a carismatic TV personality before jumping into DC’s political arena from scratch. He always was well connected and in addition to that he also dealt with a bunch of legal powerhouses during his Presiddency, some of them he appointed to his cabinett, like AG Bill Barr.
So if his inner circle, staff, countless advisers, and babblers had issues with NARA, they brought this to his attention. If a prime issue, he easily could ask AG Barr for assistance how to procedere in declassifiying documents.
On 1/20/21 he left office and four mounth later NARA controversy arised and first peaked in 2/9/22 as NARA asked DOJ to investigate the former President. Independently there was an expanded exchange between one of his representatives, lawyer Evan Corcoran, and NARA culminating in said letter dated 5/10/22. Then a grand jury subpoena was issued and carried out by FBI on 5/6/22 (aka “FBI visit”) and followed up with FBI/ Trump represantives conversation until end of 6/22. DOJ opend a criminal investigation.for potential violations of “Espionage Act” (aka “nuclear documents”). The FBI execution of said signed search warrent on 8/8/22 shifts the investigation into court terretory. As Trumps lawyers not only let it go for two weeks but also don’t appeal the approval of a very broad search warrant is another episode in a never ending story.
If Joe on mainstreet is targetet by the government and his lawyers act like those of Trump, some would say he is misrepresented. But Trump is not Joe on mainstreet. A person in his position don’t need 18 month think about if he comply. Trump choosed to walk on the escalation path. If the government will present “nuclear documents” than an explanation like he dindn’t know because someone else stored it, would hurt him politically. Igor Danchenko might defend himself in court (“Special Counsel Durham Investigation”) that he recogniced the voice of Sergej Millian though there is no evidence on his phone record the he called. But Trump doen’t like to be compared with Igor Dantchenko.
Trump’s Remarks To Hannity Should Be The Last Straw
Trump’s contention that he can declassify documents just by “thinking about it” should be the last straw for even the staunchest Trump defenders. For 6 years Trump has uttered falsehoods and unhinged rants on an almost daily basis while never being held to account.
In the minds of Trump defenders it has always been mainstream media’s fault that Trump has been so ‘misunderstood’ outside the rightwing bubble. Repeatedly defenders have claimed that Trump is actually a great statesman but that liberals suffer from ‘Trump Derangement Syndrome’.
One can look back and see countless points where Trump’s insanity crossed lines that should have been barriers of ‘No Return’. Yet rightwing media and Republican leaders have always stuck with Trump; creating a mass charade where half the country was merely ‘hallucinating’.
Therefore to hear Johnathan Turley say that Trump’s remarks to Hannity are absurd is incredibly refreshing. It provides hope that this country might possibly wake-up from the Trump nightmare.
Why should that be “the last straw” ?
Trump exagerates. SO WHAT! What is new ?
The fact that he is wrong – he can not just think a document to a declassified state does not change the fact that he is obviously right otherwise.
Trump did not give the riechstag speech – better int he original German, that Biden did, and has not weaponinzed the govenrment – not merely to go after political opponents, but to go after anyone that disagrees with him.
The US under Biden is a banana republic in so many ways.
Those of you on the left pretend everything is binary.
That you are waging a war against fascism – by being fascists.
That Mean and or stupid tweets by Trump justify totalitarianism by the left.
Those on the left chant “hate speech is not free speech” – failing to grasp that it actually is.
The first amendment is completely unnescary as a protection for good speech.
It exists entirely to protect what some deem bad speech.
And we see all arround us the consequences of supressing so called
bad speech, hate speech or disinformation.
Rising violence, rising distrust, and frequent massive error on the part of those with power.
“Totalitarianism by the left” has nothing to do with Trump’s tweets. It has been going on for over a hundred years now. Reached its peak in Germany in 1940 or so but it has never really abated with major waves cresting in 1965 and 2011. Can’t be sure yet if 2022 is another major wave or just a large ripple
The Nazis were right-wing. What on earth are you referring to when you say that “Totalitarianism by the left” … Reached its peak in Germany in 1940?
“The Nazis were right-wing.”
You don’t know what you’re talking about.
The Nazis were *both* wings. In essence, they told both the left- and right-wing parties: Stop quibbling over who gets to control German citizens. Let’s have total control — a dictatorship. It is accident that parties from both wings supported the Enabling Acts.
“is [no] accident”
The Nazis identified themselves as a right-wing party. Are you suggesting that you know better than they do where they place on the political spectrum?
Here’s a German discussion of the Weimar political parties:
https://www.bundestag.de/resource/blob/189776/01b7ea57531a60126da86e2d5c5dbb78/parties_weimar_republic-data.pdf
“Here’s a German discussion . . .”
Copy and paste is not a substitute for knowledge. It is, though, a crutch for those who are ignorant about the political philosophies operative in Weimar Germany.
If you could think in principles, you might see that the Right in Weimar Germany stood for partial statism (of the authoritarian type). The Left stood for partial statism (of the socialist type). Both sides rejected capitalism and individualism. Hitler’s rise to power consisted of removing the “partial” from both wings — and establishing total statism.
In other words, your mind is closed to evidence that the Nazis identified themselves as a right-wing party.
“In other words, your mind is closed to evidence that the Nazis identified themselves as a right-wing party.”
I have no idea what YOU mean by “right” or “left”.
The NAZI’s over and over and over identified themselves as SOCIALISTS.
Fascism is a form of SOCIALISM.
Fascism is “Everything in the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state” Musolini.
So what part of the Fascist or NAZI ideology is “right wing” ?
Nowhere in your link do the Nazi’s identify as right wing.
In your resource they they are identified as anti-capitalist and socialist.
The paper has a claim that Hindenberg gave Hitler power as a consequence of pressure from the right.
It is true that in close to anarchy lots of groups prefered the Nazi’s to the communists, and that at the time the Nazi party was declining in popularity and the elites thought Hitler could be controlled and pushed aside. Others expected that he would fail and that would bring them to power.
Regardless Hitler did not rise to power because he was conservative.
I would further note that your paper is the thoughts of some modern historian – and it obviously vastly and incorrectly describes Hitler’s rise to power. Though at the very least it acturately describes the Nazi’s as they would descripe themselves – nationalists, Socialists, anti-capitalists.
ATS, let us simplify it for the fools. You can make whatever claim you wish but we are discussing the politics in America.
Left-wing: Big government; rights of private property infringed on.
Nazi: Big government; rights of private property infringed on.
“Right-wing”: Small government; private property rights essential
Libertarian: Small government; private property rights essential
Classical liberal: Small government; private property rights essential
Conservative: Varies slightly but mostly Small government; private property rights essential
Add to Nazi: National Socialism; Dictatorship; religious persecution and persecution based on race; expansionist; Jessie Owens could not possibly exist.
“Democrat racist leadership including their friend, Joe Biden: Jessie Owens sits in the back of the bus.
“Right-wing”: Jessie Owens was an American. ‘Americans are free’
Now, ATS, you can pretend these realities don’t exist. That proves why you are not credible and why no one should listen to anything you have to say.
“Totalitarianism by the left” has nothing to do with Trump’s tweets. It has been going on for over a hundred years now.
Trump is an idiot. Out of 16 Republican candidates, the RNC chose a charlatan who’s only skill was insulting others. Carly Fiorina has bigger gonads than Trump, and yet he smeared her and that resonated with the RNC. The RNC is populated by beta-male cowards, the DNC by Marxists.
re: Totalitarianism by the left, no single ideology has resulted in more deaths of innocents: Mao in China, Stalin in USSR, Hitler in Germany, all leftists, murdered hundreds of millions
Nazi = National Socialist German Workers’ Party, per Adolf Hitler. Socialism and Workers’ Party movements are fundamental to Left wing ideology just like today’s Democrat Party
And that was the reason also why we named our Party, The National Socialist German Labour Party.
– Adolph Hitler in “Mein Kampf”
http://meinkampf.us/mein-kampf/mkv1ch12.html
Trump is “a charlatan who’s only skill was insulting others.”
Except, of course, for his beneficial domestic and foreign *policies* (wich in the real world are what actually matter).
“Nazi = National Socialist German Workers’ Party, per Adolf Hitler.”
True. But apparently you didn’t feel like mentioning the Catholic church’s support for Hitler. Or the most prominent Catholic political party’s support for Hitler — a party that voted for the Enabling Act.
“Trump is an idiot. “
Castro was shrewd.
Do you prefer Castro?
Please cite times Trump has crossed points of no return.
I can not think of a single one.
Yet those on the left do so all the time.
The left wing nut media is its own problem.
No one even cares if the MSM misunderstands Trump.
They are in trouble because they misunderstand america,
and they misunderstand reality.
Much of the country is not hallucinating, YOU are hallucinating, as well as much of the MSM,
And you are doing so obviously out in the open.
We have lots of idiots here trying to defend the behavior of those at Martha’s vineyard.
Poor little rich kids, not enough beds to handle 50 brown people.
You fixate on DeSantis or republicans. They did not make the problems at the border,
Nor did Trump. What Trump did was prove that we could do much better.
Since Trump we have more crime,
more suicide
more drug overdoses,
more illegal immigrants.
more inflation.
more Covid deaths
more deaths from all causes
We have an economy that was ready to explode, preparing to implode.
You made this mess.
We can fight over how bad things were under Trump.
But inarguably you have made things many many times worse.
Why exactly is it that we should trust you ? You have been wrong about pretty much everything ?
Why exactly should we trust the Media ? They have been wrong about pretty much everything.
About Trump, about Biden, about covid, about illegal immigrants, about the economy, about inflation.
You think this is all about Trump ?
Your an idiot.
This is all about YOU.
You and those who share your views, your policies, your values,
have failed.
and have harmed ALL OF US in doing so.
Is Trump a great president ? No.
is he the best president in the 21st century by a long shot – OBJECTIVELY yes.
You want to piss all over him ? Fine, give us something better, if you can not manage that, no one it interested.
To paraphrase Lincoln:
“I can not spare the man, he fights” YOU.
John, two months prior the election, in late 7/16, the FB opened a counterintelligence investigation into possible links between the Russian government and Trump campaign officials. On 11/8/16 not only he but also GOP took House & Senate. Completing the wall on our SW border was an essential part of Trump’s agenda Did he get it funded?
“Trump’s Remarks To Hannity Should Be The Last Straw”
No. But do you know what is the last straw? — An entire administration that is on the premise: Wishing makes it so. And who then uses that premise to peddle the delusions that:
— The Afghanistan debacle was a success
— That rampant crime is an illusion
— That inflation is no big deal and that inflationary policies are not inflationary
— That it’s beneficial to destroy America’s energy industry
— That political opponents are enemies of the state
— That student loan debt can be wiped out with the stroke of a pen
— That by merely saying so, the pandemic is over
— That your kleptocratic family is not full of kleptocrats
— That your President is of sound mind
— That dissenting speech is “disinformation” and should be censored by the government
Judge Dearie’s directions today to Trump and the government:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64911367/106/trump-v-united-states/
Janet.robert.kaplan@gmail.com
Wow, These Trumpite posters sure like fiction …. Oh, DOJ planted the classified docs, Oh, no, it was the WH staff packing the boxes and Trump didn’t know what they were putting in them,,,,,Well, Trump had the “powers of mind control” to declassify. the docs (as he now acknowledges taking!)
What a circus and the Trumpites fall for all the smoke and mirrors Trump gives them! lol lol lol
In the meantime Trump is totally wrecking the Republican Party!!!!!
All of the related “classified material” is in Real President Donald J. Trump’s cognitive process.
Will the communists (liberals, progressives, socialists, democrats, RINOs) next demand a prefrontal, nay, global lobotomy to remove all classified material?
Will Americans give that, or any of their other preposterous, communist demands a scintilla of audience?
MAGAs “Trump is not guilty of illegally stealing classified documents, he declassified all he documents and is just really sloppy and has zero regard for national security. So all good.”
Did # 45 missed the legal path how to properly declassify documents?
Professor, after reading your well written, lengthy column, you aware me about an aspect of “Navy v. Egan”, who I never had before: Up to date those who argued on a legal POV quoted SCOTUS ruling 484 U.S. 518, # 86-1552 from 2/23/88 (and Art 2 Section 1, Sentence 1) favorable for # 45. However, (legal) critics asserted that incumbent President can revoke predecessor decision, which was also a discussion point between Trumps legal representatives and NARA (see their letter from 5/10/22 to Evan Corcoran).
1. After FBI executed (an overbroad) search warrant, signed by Magistrate Bruce Reinhart, at Mar-a-Lago on 8/8/22 and # 45’s representatives didn’t dispute the issue of the warrant, immediately (it took two weeks for a legal response), I was confident that it’s only a question of time that this criminal investigation will lead to indictment and conviction in a DC criminal court later. Separately, I also asked you to share your knowledge about the timeframe until the sentence (including all appeal possibilities).
2. Former President remains not only the most powerful figure within GOP but also indicated, that he considers running again for office in ’24. As he (by a wide margin) successfully indorsed “MAGA Republican” candidate, results of midterms will show electorates verdict: If GOP will flip House & Senate, “MAGA Republicans” will give him credit, although his critics will say despite his presence. Independently he is keynote speaker at several “Save America” rallies attended by “MAGA-Republican” supporters by large numbers (next is tomorrow in Wilmington, NC, followed by Warren, MI on 10/1/22). As a consequence, he also will be available for home-turf broadcasters.
3. Within the opinion, the court of appeal for 11th district referenced a declaration from Alan E. Kohler, Jr., the Assistant Director of the Counterintelligence Division of the FBI (pages 12-13. explained that “since the 9/11 attacks, the FBI has integrated its intelligence and law enforcement functions when it exercises its national security mission.” Later in his opinion, the court stated (page 25-26): “Through Kohler’s declaration, the United States has sufficiently explained how and why its national-security review is inextricably intertwined with its criminal investigation. When matters of national security are involved, we must accord substantial weight to an agency’s affidavit. [1] The engrained principle that “courts must exercise the traditional reluctance to intrude upon the authority of the Executive in military and national security affairs” guides our review of the United States’s proffered national-security concerns. […]
In sum, given the long-recognized “compelling interest in protecting . . . the secrecy of information important to our national security [2]”
4. Apart from keeping “nuclear documents”: Did President Trump lost,
(a) because he missed the legal path how to properly declassify documents. [3] or
(a) as declassified documents can also be “important to our national security”, the status of documents is irrelevant. If so, who is the decission maker?
[1] Kohler and court quoted Broward Bulldog, Inc. v. U.S. Dep’t of Justice, 939 F.3d 1164, 1182 (11th Cir. 2019) (quoting Am. Civil Liberties Union v. U.S. Dep’t of Def., 628 F.3d 612, 619 (D.C. Cir. 2011)
[2] Court quoted Snepp v. United States, 444 U.S. 507, 509 n.3 (1980)
[3] https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2020/10/11/heres-how-president-trump-can-declassify-documents-around-the-authorization-process/ (published on 10/11/20)
Please cite the Constitution.
What the Constitution says is that the executive branch is the executive branch.
At the same time, the Constitution says that no other branch or entity is the executive branch.
The Constitution also says that the executive branch is headed by the chief executive, the president.
What the president decides regarding the executive branch is entirely the purview of the chief executive, which IS the aforementioned chief executive, the president, and the executive branch, of which the president is the head.
What part of the statement that the executive branch is the one and only executive branch do you not understand?
Classifying and declassifying materials is the function of only the executive branch.
Classifying and declassifying materials is NOT the function of any other branch or entity of the constitutionally established government.
A society of laws must adhere to the laws.
Thanks for confirming that Trump, who is no longer President, cannot assert Executive Privilege against the Executive Branch.
Please cite the Constitution.
Real President Donald J. Trump exercised his powers as Chief Executive of the Executive Branch, which include classification, declassification, archiving and any and all other aspects of the current and historical disposition of classified material engendered during his term as Chief Executive of the separate and equal Executive Branch, dominion over which no other branch or entity may claim or exercise, and dominion which would require a constitutional amendment.
Biden is President.
Biden is a model patient in the asylum.
Susan Rice stole the election.
Trump was President when he declassified records and took his Presidential records.
Get things straight.
That is with near certainty false.
Executive privilege is not a claim made in the present, it is a status of particular documents.
It is much like attorney client privilege.
Executive priviledge – like attorney client priviledge can be waived.
But prior to Biden I do not beleive there is an instance in which a current presiden waived priviledge for an ex-president,
and there is much law, including the PRA that strongly indicates that executive privildge regarding prior administrations remains with the ex-president.
There are lots of cases where the courts have found that executive priviledge did not overcome congresses oversight responsibilities, or the needs of law enforcement. But that is quite different from deciding that it does not exist, or that the current administration can waive it for the past.
Regardless, and most importantly, there is absolutely no instance in which a court has decided that a claim of executive priviledge could be overcome without going to court.
That is incredibly important as the Biden administration from the start sought to cut the courts out of this entire process.
That means They not Trump was acting lawlessly.
It is far less important whether Trump wins on each of his claims than it is that he wins on requiring DOJ to go to court.
The latter completely destroys any claims of criminality on the part of Trump.
Any action in law that requires a court to sort out – even if the decision goes against you is by definition not criminal.
The Executive Branch is bound to execute the laws passed by Congress, and Trump violated those laws. Congress can and does write laws that apply to and limit the Executive Branch.
Please cite the Constitution.
If you choose to pursue a transfer of the power of the executive branch to the legislative branch, you must amend the Constitution.
This is an entirely moot children’s game in a kindergarten sand box; a tempest in a teapot.
At the point in time when the president conceived declassification of any or all material, that material was declassified.
Classification and declassification of material is an exclusive function of the executive branch.
No legislation to affect classification or declassification of material of the executive branch is possible or constitutional.
The legislative branch has no power to usurp the power of the executive branch.
Power of the executive branch may only be transferred to the legislative branch through amendment.
The legislative branch may attempt to impeach a sitting president for any reason.
Unintelligible and irrelevant ideations of the citizenry, members of the legislative branch or members of the judicial branch do not bear and do not prevail over the dominion of the Constitution.
“ No legislation to affect classification or declassification of material of the executive branch is possible or constitutional.”
Please take a class in civics. The legislative branch can and has passed laws that regulate the actions of the executive branch.
Examples:
– the budget is passed by the Congress and carried out by the executive branch;
– laws that created various agencies and departments such as the EPA and the Department of Energy;
– laws that restrict the executive branch’s ability to interpret laws passed by the congress;
– laws that fund or defund specific programs that are carried out by the executive branch;
– laws that place direct limits on the what the executive branch can and can not do.
An example of the last is the congress passed a law that prevents the executive branch (CDC, specifically) from performing gun violence research.
George, ATS thinks he can change the Constitution as quickly as he changes his aliases whether the alias is Jonathan, Green anonymous, or anyone else.
He is not credible and knows nothing about the Constitution except specious arguments to destroy it.
The whole security classification system is based on executive orders, not Acts of Congress.
Documents containing information about nuclear weapons or nuclear weapons research can be declassified only by the originating agency, typically the department of energy.
I was both the government/Navy attorney responsible for the Egan case and later in life the Original Classification Authority (OCA) for the FBI. Trump is right in his claim that he has the authority to declassify, can argue that the movement of those documents to Mar a Lago indicates that he had declassified them and that there is no established process for an OCA to classify or declassify.
He *could* argue that, but he has NOT argued that.
Also, you meant “had,” not “has.” Trump does not have the authority now to declassify anything.
You are correct that Mr. Bowman made an error of tense.
Beyond that he is completely correct.
If Trump declassified something as president, by order or defacto (not by telepathy or thought) then it is declassified.
Then there would be a record of that declassification by marking the documents as “declassified”. No such record has been produced. Trump lied.
Then there would be a record of that declassification by marking the documents as “declassified”. No such record has been produced. Trump lied.
There is a process required to declassify information. The power to create that process is exclusive with the President of the United States, or his delegate. No one has the power to challenge the process used by the President.
In short, there is no requirement for any documentation or records, when the President declassifies
“Then there would be a record of that declassification by marking the documents as “declassified”. No such record has been produced. Trump lied.”
Obviously false.
Lets just try one scenario.
These documents are the portfolio of documents that Ratcliffe brought to Trump in Jan 2021, and that Trump ordered declassified. Trump kept his own copy of those documents – because he did not trust DOJ to do as Ordered – which BTW they have not done, so obviously Trump had excellent reason to not trust them.
The copy Trump was provided by Ratcliffe would not be marked declassified.
This BTW is just one of many easily constructed scenarious in which a declassified document remains marked classified.
I would note, there is an actual record of the documents Trump ordered declassified that were in Ratcliffe’s portfolio.
And thus far absolutely no one has given anyone – not even the courts any basis to know whether these are those documents or not. But Trump’s declassification order went beyond those specific documents.
Trump declassified EVERYTHING in the entire collusion delusion Fiasco at one time or another, often multiple times.
If these documents have anythign to do with Crossfire Huricane or the Muller investigation – marked or not they are PROVEABLY declassified.
But establishing that requires examination of the content, which is an issue of fact, not law.
I would note that the collusion delusion documents are the most likely documents at issue here.
But similar scenarios are possible with ANY classified documents.
No one is disputing that Trump, while President, could declassify things.
And yet they are constantly.
I would further note that if this legal battle is about whether Trump did or did not declassify these documents,
Then there is no consequential fight.
Trump in possession of declassified documents is not a crime.
Trump in possession of documents that he beleives he declassified but actually did not – is not a crime.
Trump in possession of documents he knows he did not declassify is not a crime.
To reach a crime, Trump must have ACTED illegally. As in he must have gone back to the WH and stolen these after jan 20, 2021. OR he must have tried to sell them to a foreign power.
There is no such allegation.
Therefore there is not crime.
Depending on the facts – NARA or DOJ MIGHT have a legitimate civil case.
But even a warrant is not merely escalation, it is a crime.
Government may not use the criminal process to gain leverage in a civil conflict.
And certainly not for poitical purposes.
It was not so long ago that Democrats were chanting that all uses of govenrment power against a political rival were impeachable offenses.
Suddenly that is not true anymore.
There was far more evidence that the Biden family was engaged in criminal abuse of power in 2019, than there is that Trump has violated any law in 2022. There is far more evidence that Biden has used government illegitimately as a political weapon – and not just targeting Trump, than that Trump targeted Biden illegitimately.
Regardless, Republicans will control the house and likely the Senate in 2023.
Like it or not we are already in reccession, and as the FED essentially just said – it will neither be short nor mild.
And the left has earned the blame.
Incompetence has consequences.
No one is disputing that Trump, while President, could declassify things.
And none of the 3 alleged crimes hinges on whether the documents were or weren’t declassified.
Of course they do.
This is more absolutely stupidity.
Lets use the obvious case.
Lets assume for the sake of argument what seems to be likely.
That these documents are collusion delusion related documents that Trump declassified.
There is clearly no violation of the espionage act. The documents are declassified.
We all know there is no national security interest EXCEPT Protecting DOJ/FBI/SV and Obama whitehouse officials from exposure.
Assuming those are the documents in question – this is not a Trump crime, this is an egregious abuse of power By Biden and the current amid to COVERUP their own malfeasance.
It is possible those are not the documents in question – though frankly every single new bit of actual information we get tends to lean towards that. We do not know ALL of the affadavit, but all the parts we do know are about Collusion Delusion declassified documents.
But lets skip the collusion delusion documents.
NEarly everything in the federal government that is declassified is subject to FOIA requests.
Are you saying that the posession of documents that ordinary people can request, and that if denied they can go to court and with a very high probability of success get, that that can be a crime ?
It is true that a document does not have to be marked classified to be classified.
It is absolutely false that possessing a declassified document – marked or not can violate any of the laws cited.
It is not merely stupid it is ludicrously stupid.
Why is it we are constantly getting these reality defingly stupid arguments from the left ?
We all listened as you defending Clinton over her actual theft of classified documents that were then made available on the internet to anyone with the minimal skills needed to Hack her.
It is not possession of a classified document outside of a SCIF or other secure fascility that is the crime.
It is whether there is a legal means for you to come into possession of such a document, and whether what you did with that document violated the law.
Clinton did not have any legal means to possess classified documents in here home. She got them by faxing them to her home, by emailing them to herself or others – which requires a separate crime because there is no legal means to get a classified document into an email. Clinton violated the law by providing classified documents to people who were not permitted access to them – such as Sydney Blumenthal who profited off that access. And she violated the law by recklessly making them available on the internet – as well as there getting to Anythony Weiners laptop and many other insecure places they could have been either electronically accessed or easily stolen.
None of that is True with respect to Trump.
No one as of yet has claimed that any of these documents were on a computer.
Everything alleged is about paper documents that were in a gated facility where everyone must show id to get in, and then in a private residence protected by the secret service at all times, and then inside Trump’s presidential offices within that residence, space that is STILL government leased space, and then inside a doubly locked closet.
We do not know how these documents came to be at MAL, but so long as that occured at Trump’s direction while president, or on the independent action of the GSA – there is no crime in acquiring them. They were moved from one place they were allowed to be to another place they were allowed to be.
I keep joking about Trump scaling the WH fence on Jan 21, 2021, but that or something similar is what you need to get a crime of possession.
I also joke about Trump selling nuclear secrets to the Saudi’s – but that or something similar is what you need to get a violation of these laws.
I’m not going to assume with you.
11th Circuit:
“… Plaintiff’s effort to raise questions about classification status is a red herring. As the government has explained (Mot. 15-17), even if Plaintiff could show that he declassified the records at issue, there would still be no justification for restricting the government’s use of evidence at the center of an ongoing criminal investigation. Again, Plaintiff offers no response. Plaintiff likewise fails to rebut the motion’s showing that the injunction is irreparably harming the government and the public. …”
11th circuit court of appeals not 11th circuit.
The differences is quite important.
Every single issue that the 11th circuit court of appeals address falls into the domain of the trial court at this time, not the appeals court.
That is true even if they are RIGHT.
You keep constantly claiming this is not about the warrant – this is a civil matter and must be weighed using civil standards. Yet the section you cite is specifically about the warrant and requires the application of the standard for a warrant. Those are matters for a TRIAL court. not an appeals court.
I would note the language from the 11th circuit court of apeals as written is not limited to classified documents.
What they just said is that if the government wants it and a warrant is granted they can have it. PERIOD.
They can have classified documents, they can have Trump’s passports, they can have executive priviledged material, they can have photos of Trump, they can have melania’s underwear. All they must do is claim it is evidence in a crime.
The entire purpose of the review Trump asked for – which is rare but not perfectly legal, and fully within Cannon’s discretion, is to determine whether the government has seized more than it is allowed to.
That decision hinges both on FACTS and on law. Cannon is the finder of FACT, at this stage, and she has not at this point reached any findings of fact that DOJ can challenge – and even if she had challenges to findings of FACT at an appellate level very rarely succeed.
Yet the 11th appeals court is engaged in an obviously FACT based analysis. Therefore they are OBVIOUSLY wrong.
Trump is going to lose with regard to providing government documents marked classified. It was improper for Dearle to even allow Trump to question classification at this level. But it was also improper for the 11th court of appeals to interfere on the basis of facts.
The portion of the decisions you cite – as written says that courts can NEVER appoint a special master,
because the government has alleged a crime and therefore is entitled to whatever they want.
That is blatantly unconstitutional and wrong.
There is another error with respect to the decision of the 11th circuit court of appeals.
They keep saying the Plantiff has not met its burdern. Again that is a fact decision and NOT the domain of the appeals court.
But it is also legally incorrect. DOJ appealed Cannon’s order – the burden is on DOJ not the plantiff in the appeals court. All facts must be presumed as favorable to the non-moving party in an appeal – in this case that would be Trump.
The 11th circuit court of appeals is wrong to intervene at this time.
When Cannon has made a final decision, if there are errors in the law, whichever party wishes can appeal.
DOJ’s appeal is an interlocutory appeal. That is an appeal from a non-final decision of the court.
The following 3 criteria must be met;
the order must have conclusively determined the disputed question;
the order must “resolve an issue completely separate from the merits of the action”;
the order must be “effectively unreviewable on appeal from a final judgment.”
None of these are true.
For all of the idiots who think that Trump could declassify documents simply by thinking in his head “these are declassified” and never notifying anyone, if you believe that then you must also believe that Biden could reclassify all of them by simply by thinking in his head “these are reclassified.”
Exactly. I think Biden said he thought he did that a couple days after getting to the White House. “I think I will reclassify any and all documents I think Trump might have thought he declassified and also still thinks belong to him.” said Biden, meanwhile thinking what a clever way to entrap Trump for having classified documents he thought he declassified.
Look folks, during my time in the military, I had access to classified information, as do most military personnel in certain jobs. Trump is right about declassifying with “a thought.” After all, that is how documents are classified in the first place. Someone, the originator or a higher authority, reads a document and decides, a thought, that they contain classified information and so marks them. There’s no single office or authority that says this is classified and this is not. As the Chief Executive officer, the president is THE highest authority on classification. We, or some of us at least, already know that there was a big flap between Donald Trump and the FBI over documents related to the “Russiagate” investigation. Trump ordered the FBI to declassify all the documents and make them public. FBI officials refused, which is a case of insubordination, It’s beyond highly likely that those are the documents the FBI went after. Journalist John Solomon went to the National Archives and searched for those specific documents and found that they are not there. That’s a pretty good indication of what documents are in question. Members of the Trump administration have stated that he ordered the documents declassified and sent them to the FBI to do so during the last months and even last hours of his presidency, but they stonewalled. Those documents most likely include information obtained by NSA eavesdroppers prior to and possibly during his administration. Everything the NSA does is highly classified simply because they can, not because the information itself should be classified. I suspect this is all headed for the Supreme Court. We’ll see what happens.
@sem whatever…
Yes, now we’re getting into a semantics argument.
What did Trump mean that he could declassify it with a thought.
Turley is being literal.
Trump may not have been.
To his point… removing a classified document and taking it to MAL, could be a ‘thought’ and then a subsequent action. Meaning the POTUS merely removing a doc to an unsecured or less secured location could make the document declassified.
So here’s the thing. Trump claimed that he had a standing order on declassification. Even if he claims to have said it. Is that enough for the courts?
It could be.
The other thing that is interesting… these are *copies* of the original documents. So its less seeing the docs but knowing what docs he had.
And then you have to consider Obama is guilty of the same thing. Same w other former POTUSes.
And also there’s nothing criminal here.
Its a NARA issue.
Trump’s legal team made the wrong argument.
And I’m not sure if that wasn’t on purpose.
Lets see what leaks.
“ So here’s the thing. Trump claimed that he had a standing order on declassification. Even if he claims to have said it. Is that enough for the courts?”
No. A standing order even a verbal one would have to be on record as being said. Everyone would have to have been notified including the CIA, FBI, NSA, NIS, etc. In any court you have to PROVE with physical evidence such as an affidavit or an actual document stating Trump’s standing order. Obviously that is not true. Trump was just lying.
Svelaz: thank you. What the Trumpsters are overlooking is the fact that everything the POTUS does is recorded. Remember the Nixon tapes? There is a daily diary of everything that is done in the White House. The fact that Trumpy Bear claims he can do a Vulcan mind meld with the documents and automatically change documents from classified to declassified merely by the strength of his genius mind proves that it never happened and that no paper trail exists. This also explains why neither Trumpy Bear nor his current crop of lawyers has claimed, either in the form of a declaration under oath, or verified motion, that declassification happened–even after being pressed by Judge Dearie. They saw what happened to brother Giuliani, and even the $3 million retainer isn’t worth losing your law license to promote falsehoods from a chronic, habitual liar.
It appears to have suddenly dawned on Trump that he’s in a lot of legal trouble for lying on financial statements and tax returns–hence the “declassification by thought process” story he gave on Hannity that even Turley is skeptical about. Yesterday, the NY AG sued Trump for a longstanding pattern of lying about the value of his assets for purposes of securing loans and insurance, and then downplaying the value for tax purposes. One example: he claimed his Trump Tower apartment was 33,000 sq. ft, when it is actually less than 11,000 sq. ft. He also grossly exaggerated the value, claiming it is worth far more than any other NYC apartment has ever sold for. Chris Hayes did an excellent segment showing just one example of how Trump constantly lies and exaggerates everything. There was some sale of military materiel to Saudi Arabia. Trump began by saying this would create 400 jobs; the next interview, it was 400,000 jobs; after that, it was 500,000 jobs, and lastly, he claimed it would create at least a million jobs, maybe more. He similarly exaggerated the selling price for the equpiment that went up every time he spoke. AG James has a strong case because all of Trump’s lies can be proven by records, which speak for themselves.
Another point: as to the TS/SCI documents, on Hannity last night, Trump has admitted he TOOK the documents–no more lying about the GSA being at fault for packing them away. He also opened the door to the notion that there might be more of his mind-melded documents floating around elsewhere.
Another thing he lied about: Mar A Lago. He grossly exaggerated the value by claiming that although there was only one residence, plus cottages, on the property, the parcel could be divided into individual residential lots and sold which would massively increase its value. He KNEW that there are restrictive covenants prohibiting any sort of subdivision of property subject to the covenants when he made this representation. Just another big, fat lie.
Agreed. It will take a trip to SCOTUS. Hopefully, at least one Justice will ask DOJ, “Could you kindly show us where in the Constitution a sitting president, as head of the Executive Branch, is required to give more than a verbal order to declassify executive department documents and who exactly is required to hear it? And if that verbal order is defied what are the consequences for the one (or many) who defied the order? I mean, this is all written down somewhere, right?”
Where did Trump give a verbal order about these documents while President?
Sorry, I don’t respond to troll-bots. I lied, I’m not really sorry – but do feel free to ask the Court that very question yourself, while you’re there defending the same people who wouldn’t give a second thought about putting you in solitary for just ‘being’.
Does not matter where. All that matters is that he did.
He has the power to do so. Hopefully we are well past the nonsense claiming otherwise.
The burden for a criminal conviction is on DOJ.
That’s what the request for “where” was about: evidence that he DID. So far, no such evidence has been presented to the court, as noted by the 11th Circuit and Judge Dearie.
The DOJ hasn’t indicted him. IF they indict, THEN they have a burden to prove that he committed the crime(s) he charged with. But right NOW, they met their burden for the 11th Circuit to stay the relevant portion of Cannon’s ruling.
Neither the 11th Court nor Dearie requested proof of declassification because Trump hasn’t been charged with a crime. Trump does not have to provide anything at this point because he hasn’t been charged with any crime. DOJ has the alleged ‘classified’ documents. That there’s no supporting paperwork with them to prove they were no longer classified when they arrived at MAL isn’t relevant nor part of the SM inquiry as he is not charged with that finding nor will he determine those documents ‘status’ during his review. DOJ is fishing for something, ANYTHING, that will prevent Trump from running for office, nothing more AT THIS POINT.
Consider this perspective from ‘never-Trump’ Matt Taibbi about how out of control the DOJ is today compared to just 20 years ago:
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-justice-department-was-dangerous-dbe
Trump’s lawyers acknowledged that Dearie’s Draft Plan asked them about it: “the Draft Plan requires that the Plaintiff disclose specific information regarding declassification to the Court and to the Government.” Maybe you haven’t read enough of the relevant documents.
Keyword “draft”. Let me know if you don’t understand that ‘draft’ does not equal ‘final’ in any known legalese sense of the word. I suspect you already knew that, though, so there’s no need to actually ask me about that.
You falsely claimed “neither the 11th Court nor Dearie requested proof of declassification.” Dearie DID ask for it, both in his written Draft Plan provided to the Government and to Trump, and also in the hearing 2 days ago. Let me know if you don’t understand that you were mistaken.
You, the DOJ, and now Dearie and the 11th are working the Preponderance of Presumption angle wherein the strategy is to put the defendant(s) on the their heels and demand proof of innocence BEFORE charging them and having a trial. That’s bush league law practicing. Government prosecutors have the burden of proving the accused is guilty every step of the way, not the Courts. Reasonable people see this as a declaration of guilt by the government on Trump’s part in search of a crime and evidence to support that conclusion. It’s not Trump’s, Cannon’s, the 11th’s, nor Dearies’ job to help the government search for evidence as they are not the investigating parties. The Cannon inquiry is NOT a pre-trial motion to determine document status nor include or disallow evidence of any EXISTING CRIMINAL CASE. Cannon and the rest of the Court’s job is to ensure the accused’s rights are not trampled – they are not tasked with investigating the facts in evidence before that evidence is presented at trial, AFTER indictment.
Bottom line: If DOJ believes Trump is guilty of SOMETHING (they’ve had more than six years of investigation), then indict him and PROVE it in court NOW, aka ‘poop or get off the pot.’
BTW, Dearie also asked about it in the hearing:
“The government gives me prima facie evidence that these are classified documents. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it. … You can’t have your cake and eat it” if they refuse to provide evidence of declassification.
https://lawandcrime.com/trump/as-far-as-im-concerned-thats-the-end-of-it-skeptical-special-master-presses-trumps-lawyers-on-declassification-evasions-at-hearing/
That courts tend to side with government’s position first isn’t new. Even judge’s get the law wrong on occasion. Either way, these hearing are not part of an existing trial. The question of documents classification status is it’s own fishing expedition using the newly created DOJ , ‘Preponderance of Presumption’ legal standard where the defendant is tasked with negotiating away their own “presumed innocent until proven guilty” rights to prevent being charged with a crime OR in the hopes of using process crimes as proof of an underlying criminal act or acts. US vs Trump is an INVESTIGATION at this time, not a trial. Defendant Trump isn’t required to prove his innocence before being indicted. And while DOJ isn’t required to show their hand prior to indictment, it’s in everyone’s interest that DOJ demonstrate they’re being transparent and have been dotting their I’s and crossing their T’s all along rather than accusing, without evidence, that literally anyone’s actions have been unlawful by trying cases in the media instead of in front of a jury.
Again, please consider this ‘never-Trump’ journalist’s perspective: https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-justice-department-was-dangerous-dbe
You are horribly confused.
You are blurring your interogative pronouns, and botching standards of proof.
A warrant is criminal. The Standard of proof for EVERYTHING related to a warrant is probable cause.
That is different from the civil standard.
It is the standard that questions related to the warrant will be judged by even in a civil case about the warrant.
It is a low standard – which is why Trump will likely lose, Which is also why Trump and his lawyers will likely reserve serious challenges to if and when there is an indictment. Because making their best arguments and losing when the standard of proof is more favorable to the DOJ would prejudice them later when the standard of proof is much higher.
Regardless, as always you are wrong about everything. You are either fixating on the wrong W or you are just clueless. And you are certainly clueless about standards of proof.
Sem,
“ Someone, the originator or a higher authority, reads a document and decides, a thought, that they contain classified information and so marks them.”
That’s the evidence of having that thought. MARKING them “classified”. What you are leaving out is that even the president having a “thought” of declassifying something it still has to be…MARKED “declassified” by order of the office of the president or something in that regard.
In order to PROVE that one declassified anything there has to be EVIDENCE that the “thought” occurred and was acknowledged by everyone else so there would be an AWARENESS that specific documents were declassified.
You time in the military obviously didn’t involve creating classified documents or declassifying them.
Svelaz, You just made that whole explanation up out of thin air. And that’s being kind out of respect for Prof Turley.
We are dealing with a criminal case – the burden of proof is on the prosecution.
A president can not declassify something merely by thought.
He must either order it declassified or he must Act. As president handing a classified document to a person without sufficient clearance to see it declassifies it. Making the document public declassifies it, Taking it from a secure location to an insecure location declassifies it.
More than a thought is necessary, but while an order is sufficient it is NOT the only means that something is declassified.
A document being MARKED classified creates a presumption that it is classified, But it is NOT an irrefutable fact.
Just as a document being unmarked creates a presumption that it is NOT classified, but is not an irrefutable fact.
Why do the rational among us have to REPEATEDLY beat nonsense out of you ?
No, we’re not dealing with a criminal case.
Trump v. United States (9:22-cv-81294) in SDFL is a civil case.
Trump v. United States (22-13005) in the Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit is a civil case.
Maybe the DOJ will file a criminal case against Trump in the future, but so far they haven’t done so.
The burden of proof in a CIVIL case is on the plaintiff.
The government is the appealing party – the government – appealing party – has the burden of proof in an appeal.
There are very very few cases in which questions of fact are reviewed in an appeal, this is not one of those.
Regardless, the Apeals court is Oviously wrong regarding whether Trump had a personal interest.
He was in posession of the documents, he presumptively had a personal interest. You can argue otherwise to a jury.
But the court must presume the facts as they are and the natural conclusions that derive from those facts.
Further where there are questions of fact, in civil proceedings those must be assumed in favor of the non-moving Party – Trump.
Separately search warrants are CRIMINAL, all burdens of proof in everything related to a search warrant are on the Government.
To some extent the reverse is true down at the circuit court level.
Alot is made of Dearle’s request for proof that marked documents were declassified.
That request was improper. Dearle is pretty much obligated to take the documents as they are, and not consider facts outside the documents themselves. Each side can argue points of LAW regarding the documents, but not introduce new facts.
Dearle was pretty much obligated to decide that a document marked classified is classified – specifically for the purposes of his review, and to direct that document be provided to DOJ.
That does not mean that such conclusion is correct, only that it was correct given the standards and evidence that Dearle was permitted to consider.
I would note that every single time you raise the possibility that DOJ will not indict or prosecute, you are inherently admitting this is an unconstitutional political act.
There is alot that WE do not know. But Trump with near certainty knows everything, and DOJ knows nearly everything.
It is highly unlikely that DOJ’s case will be stronger in a year than it is now. It is highly unlikely that there is anything new to actually discover.
If DOJ does not indict it STRONGLY indicates that one of the following is true.
This was a failed fishing expedition. The common guess is they were after evidence that the J6 committee could spin into something politically meaningful.
Alternatively this was an effort to preclude Trump from making collusion delusion documents that would be damning to DOJ or FBI or Biden or all of the above Public.
Next it is plausible that it wad the WH/DOJ/FBI’s intent just to manufacture a criminal complaint for political benefit in the mid terms of 2024. If you find that hard to beleive – it is precisely what was done in the collusion delusion nonsense.
Finally, combinations of the above are possibilities.
DOJ/FBI are long past getting the benefit of the doubt – especially where Trump is concerned.
The recent Whistle blowers do not mostly directly pertain to this case.
But they ALL directly reflect the politicization of the FBI/DOJ.
Despite the fact that there has been no consequential act of Domestic terrorism since Mr. Hodkinson shot up the Republican congressional baseball team, and no allegedly “right wing act of domestic terrorism” since Oklamhoma City.
We have have the president, DOJ/FBI investigating record numbers of alleged domestic terrorism cases.
Fly a Betsy Ross flag, post quotes from the constitution or declaration of independence, and show up at a school board meeting complaining about the indoctrination of your children – and you could easily end up on the FBI Domestic Terror watchlist.
The are a few mentally broken people out there who will glom onto one ideology or another and commit violence. There is nothin new about that. Nor is it domestic terrorism – whether they fixate on warped leftism or warped rightism.
The only organised domestic terrorist group today is Antifa.
Yet there are no investigations of Antifa, and they have been removed from the domestic terror watchlist.
Yet the FBI – which all too recently botched the investigation of rapes and sexual abuse of the US womens gymnastic team – allowing abuse to continue for years after it was reported, resuling in the rape and sexual abuse of many teens, that FBI is removing resources from child sexual abuse cases and moving it to non-existant domestic terrorism cases.
More people on the FOREIGN terrorist watchlist have cross the border that we know of in the past few months than during the entire Trump presidency.
We have real problems.
We have real concerns about real possible terrorism
These are being ignored by this administration.
While something that is just not happening is the focus of most of the FBI/DOJ.
We also know – both with respect to Covid and other issues that our government has been using social media to censor political speech.
That is evil and unconstitutional
And undermines our trust of the FBI/DOJ/Government.
So no we do not trust the DOJ/FBI. And frankly we do not much trust the court either.
The criminal case is in Reinhart’s court, not Cannon’s. You are often sloppy on details.
“every single time you raise the possibility that DOJ will not indict or prosecute, you are inherently admitting this is an unconstitutional political act.”
BS. It’s wholly appropriate to investigate things and then decide whether or not to prosecute based on the investigation.
If Trump had obeyed the subpoena, we wouldn’t be here.
“If Trump had obeyed the subpoena, we wouldn’t be here.”
If Trump were a democrat we wouldn’t be here. If Clinton were Trump the sock draw would have been seized. If Obama or Bush were Trump the left would complain that an abandoned furniture store was not the proper place to keep records.
ATS, you are a hypocrite and a liar. I note you have abandoned your Jonathan alias. It was too transparent for you and you couldn’t hide as easily.
You are not credible and should not be listened to.
Not sloppy on details – that would be you.
Cannon’s case is about the Warrant – the standard is that set by the 4th amendment.
That does not change.
“BS. It’s wholly appropriate to investigate things and then decide whether or not to prosecute based on the investigation.”
No actually it is not. You are not free to investigate whatever you want merely because you want to.
I guess you learned nothing from the collusion delusion.
Though unfortunately no one was jailed for criminal violations of civil rights,
and here you are condoning that again.
Unfortunately at this stage we are not getting to evaluate whether the DOJ/FBI are on another unconstitutional goose chase. The gist of things so far is “Trust us” – guess what some of us have never trusted the FBI, but that number has grown since the collusion delusion. Publishing the warrant and parts of the afadavit has not helped.
There is not a basis for the claims in the warrant in the afadavit, and there is not probable cause of any crime.
In fact what has been made public in the affadavit reveals the same nonsense as the FISA warrant.
Reliance on newpaper articles, rather than government investigations, and worse stories that do not suggest a crime.
It is entirely possible – many of us think Probable that this will turn out to be another illegal action by FBI/DOJ.
That it has been undertaken for entirely improper purposes – just like CrossFire Hurricane.
And Just like CrossFire huricane we will not know that for 2 years AFTER republicans gain the power to dig into this and finally overcome DOJ/FBI refusals to provide fundimental information about the basis for the investigation.
Regardless, we have a DOJ/FBI that we have no reason to trust.
And we have mostly the same people within the DOJ/FBI.
So yes it is quite reasonable for lots of people to belive the crime in this investigation is the investigation itself.
That should always be suspected when government is doing something it has never done before.
It should also be suspected when the same people who pulled off a criminal stunt before are involved in what smells alot like one now.
It should also be suspected when the target of the investigation, has been the target of many investigations – all of which have gone nowhere, and several of which were obviously corrupt.
Regardless, No government is NOT entitled to investigate whatever it wants.
Not with Trump, not with any of us.
It is self evident at this time – independent of this case, that the FBI and DOJ need housecleaning and oversight.
That neither Barr nor Wray made any lasting corrections to the corruption,
Trust in our institutions is at an all time low – and this is a big part of why.
“If Trump had obeyed the subpoena, we wouldn’t be here.”
He did. If DOJ did not think he did, the next step was a court order.
Subpeona’s BTW are demands, they are not orders. They are from lawyers, not courts,
and they are nearly always for information – COPIES, not originals.
I have issued many subpeona’s myself. If the other party does not comply to may satisfaction,
I have neither the power nor authority to issue a warrant. Failure to comply with a subpeona can not result in a criminal sanction, and only under the most rare and egregious instances can it result in a court sanction without a court order.
“Cannon’s case is about the Warrant”
It isn’t.
The case in Cannon’s court is about the Special Master request.
Reinhart signed the warrant, and any case about the warrant will remain in his court unless he rules and his ruling is appealed to the 11th Circuit.
“Subpeona’s BTW are demands, they are not orders. They are from lawyers, not courts,”
This subpoena was from a grand jury.
As I said: You are often sloppy on details.
You are ALWAYS sloppy about everything – details and the bigger issues.
You suffer from massive confirmation bias. You see what you want.
Even if you did not fully know the details, certain fundimentals that are core parts of the law,
and if they were not the law just plain would not function, make your errors clear.
The law MUST be read narrowly – it would be unconstitutional otherwise, we would also end up rapidly with a police state, and everything would be illegal.
Crimes are ACTS.
Yes, to review documents collected based on THE WARRANT.
If you do not want insulted, stop making unbelievably stupid arguments.
Reinhart is a magistrate, not an actual judge.
He does not hear cases. He does not have a court room. He serves another ACTUAL Judge and I am not certain, but that could well be Cannon.
again, If you do not want insulted, stop making unbelievably stupid arguments.
Grand Jury’s do not issue subpeona’s The lawyers running grand juries do.
Subpeona’s are issued by lawyers, AGAIN they are demands, not orders.
If you do not think the other party has complied you go to an actual court with an actual judge – each grand jury is assigned an actual judge, and you get a COURT ORDER
again, If you do not want insulted, stop making unbelievably stupid arguments.
“Reinhart is a magistrate, not an actual judge.”
Magistrate judges ARE judges:
https://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeships/about-federal-judges
“Grand Jury’s do not issue subpeona’s The lawyers running grand juries do.”
Nope. The subpoena is issued by the court overseeing the grand jury. A prosecutor requests it, but it’s issued by the court. In this case, see Attachment C: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/64911367/48/1/trump-v-united-states/
“If you do not want insulted, stop making unbelievably stupid arguments.”
Take your own advice.
You are debating titles.
Magistrates do not have courts.
They do not hear cases.
They do not make final decisions.
In most cases they have even less actual power than ALJ’s.
They are LOOSLEY the federal equivalent of district magistrates – who also love to be refered to as judges.
Except for the most part local district magistrates actually have more power than federal magistrates.
Federal magistrates review warrant applications, they conduct scheduling for a real judge, they handle court administration.
They do not conduct trials.
Actually read attachment C.
It is signed by J L Bratt the US ADA.
It is not signed by a judge, it is not signed by the members of the grand jury.
It is a command issued by an attorney.
It is NOT a court order.
If the attorney in question beleives that the subpoena is both valid and not followed, they may ask a COURT to enforce it. That is done in an ADVERSARIAL hearing in which Trump’s attorney’s can argue that they complied or that the subpoena was unclear, overboard, unconstitutional, ….
You have obviously never had anything to do with actual subpoenas.
I have not dealt with thousands. But I have dealt with enough to be able to state:
A subpoena is not an order it is a demand by one party on another.
Subpoenaing parties never feel the subpoena was complied with.
But they rarely go to court.
The subpoena party always feels the subpoena is over broad and always reads it as narrow as possible.
If and Only If the subpoenaing party beleives they have been denied something important, they take up the issue with the judge and try to get a court order. Which they are NOT certain to get.
Only courts can issue orders.
Courts can and do impose penalties for failing to comply with subpoenas – but only courts can impose penalties.
And these penalties are usually penitentiary. Such as if you did not provide what the subpoenaing party requested the Jury can presume that it is harmful to your case.
I regularly issued subpoenas for information that I already had, merely to prove the party also had it.
The point was not to acquire documents but to prove the other party had them.
I would further note that the subpoena you cite is a subpoena to testify with a request to bring documents that might be needed in that testimony. It is not a subpoena to turn over all documents. It is not a subpoena for possession of originals. That testimony occurred. There was no challenge, and no request of the court for an order.
By law the subpoena was complied with.
You keep digging deeper and deeper holes.
You do not read your own documents.
You are clueless regarding how the courts actually work.
I would note that the rules and procedures were worked out over centuries to avoid exactly the kind of nonsense that you are arguing.
Subpoena’s are issued by LAWYERS – not courts. They are demands, not orders.
They are essentially “Do as I ask or I will try to get the court to force you to”
They exist purely to avoid lawyers going to court to get an order every single time they want something from the other side.
Subpoena’s have teeth – two rows. One for the party requesting and one for the party demanding.
When a subpoena becomes a conflict for the court – one side or the other is going to lose credibility with the court.
I would further note that I have issued subpeona’s with the explicit hope that the other party would not comply.
Not because I was going to get an order from the court.
But because if I subpeona something and the other party failed to provide it, THEY can not use it later in court.
Further Subpeona’s are for information NOT possession normally – and this particularly one was a subpeona to TESTIFY, with a demand to bring material that might be needed in that testimony.
We still do not know what these documents are.
And DOJ is doing everything in its power to assure we do not find out.
Between that, the phony leaks – which pretty much tell us what the documents are NOT, and the FACT that the DOJ used the public remarks of Patel that if DOJ did not get off its ass and release properly redacted versions of the collusion delusion documents he would post them unredacted on the web is evident that they are collusion delusion documents.
DOJ essentially argued to Rienhart that Patel’s threat to publish documents Trump ordered Declassified, was evidence of a crime. That is also pretty solid evidence that THOSE are the documents in question.
It is NOT necescary for a single person on earth to be Aware that the president declassified something, for it to be declassified.
While declassification requires an order or an act, it does not require anyone much less everyone to be aware.
If the president took some highly classified documents from the whitehouse and hid them deep in the racks at the new york public library where no one was likely to find them for years. They would be declassified and no one would know it.
Only the current president can do this, and there are very few scenarios where only the current president knows the documents have been declassified, but there is no requirement that others have knowledge of a declassification.
The fact that something is unusual does not make it impossible.
It appears that we are FINALLY past the point at which you are arguing that a document is not declassified unless it goes through some formal process that you have never specified.
Those in the military who mishandle classified documents are pretty much always prosecuted criminally within the Miltary Code of Justice for doing so. Minor violations face draconian punishments.
But that is NOT the norm. Sandy Berger got a slap on the wrist for stealing classified documents.
As CIA director Deutch received a relatively minor punishment for a massive mishandling of classified documents – though less egregious than Clinton. Then Pres. Clinton pardoned him on the way out the door. Gen Petreaus while CIA director took a large number of paper classified documents home, shared them with a lover/biographer, who then used classified information to stalk another person, and Petreaus received a slap on the wrist. No one was ever successfully prosecuted for the release of the pentagon papers.
As a rule of thumb –
if you are found to have mishandled classified documents while actively in the military – you will go to jail, for a long time.
If you are an elected or appointed member of government you will receive a slap on the wrist – if anything.
If you are a private government contractor – you will lose your job, and you will lose your security clearance permanently.
If you are completely private without a security clearance, at worst you will never receive a security clearance.
There are few exceptions to this. Outside of Clinton the Obama administration fairly aggressively prosecuted government actors who release classified information – sending one whistle blower who provided generally publicly know information regarding korea to the press to prison for several years.
Completely private individuals can and have been prosecuted under the espionage act, but only for actual spying.
For buying, stealing or blackmailing to get classified documents, and then selling them to countries like Russia.
That is substantially more than mishandling.
The president CAN NOT mishandle classified documents while president. That is just not possible.
He could accidentally put the nuclear codes on the internet – and while he might be impeached he could not be convicted of a crime.
An ex-president can possess classified documents. Criminal mishandling would be virtually impossible to prove, and has never been charged. Actual criminal ACTS – such as selling them to foreign powers are about the only crime that would not be near impossible to commit as an expresident.
While YOU repeatedly allege Trump “stole” these. That is a very stupid claim.
No one has claimed or offered proof that Trump took these documents from the WH after he was president.
Even if you successfully argue that Trump can no longer possess these documents, there is still no theft. There is no crime.
“ An ex-president can possess classified documents. Criminal mishandling would be virtually impossible to prove, and has never been charged.”
An ex-president can possess classified documents only if the administration of the president is aware of it. An ex-president can have ACCESS to classified documents, but is not allowed to have them in their possession without the knowledge of the presiding administration.
Trump being a private citizen who no longer has any personal interest or need to know what is in classified documents has no right to unilaterally possess classified documents. This is why upon discovering that Trump had classified documents including the most sensitive secrets there are without the current adminsttration knowing AND refusing to comply with a subpoena constitutes is deliberate obstruction and theft. That is a crime. Simply having defense information that he is no longer needs to know is a violation of the law.
“ No one has claimed or offered proof that Trump took these documents from the WH after he was president.”
The proof is the documents FOUND in his home. They didn’t magically appear in his office or in some storage room in a basement of his country club. He already admitted he took them during Sean Hannity’s interview. Thanks to Trump’s affinity to shoot his mouth off rather than exercise his constitutional right to remain silent. This is why no self respecting lawyer will work for him.
“An ex-president can possess classified documents only if the administration of the president is aware of it.”
FALSE
“An ex-president can have ACCESS to classified documents”
Correct,
“but is not allowed to have them in their possession without the knowledge of the presiding administration.”
Nope.
You are trying to manufacture a crime based on the ignorance of a third party
“Trump being a private citizen who no longer has any personal interest”
The 11th circuit court of appeals completely botched that.
First it is a question of fact, not appropriate on appeal.
Next, pretty much by definiton someone posessing something has a personal interest in it.
“need to know what is in classified documents has no right to unilaterally possess classified documents.”
Please read Obama’s EO you are just plain wrong.
We have plowed this ground repeatedly.
restating the same errors over and over does not change anything.
“This is why upon discovering that Trump had classified documents including the most sensitive secrets there are without the current adminstration knowing AND refusing to comply with a subpoena constitutes is deliberate obstruction and theft.”
Nope. You keep trying to make up how the classification system works.
You are wrong about the law, and you are making myriads of factual assumptions most of which are likely wrong.
“That is a crime.”
Nope,
“Simply having defense information that he is no longer needs to know is a violation of the law.”
Nope,
SCOTUS refused to require the Washington Post to return the unpublished portions of the pentagon papers which were highly classified and not yet made public.
Mere posession is not a crime.
No private person has ever to my knowledge been convicted of a crime merely for possession of classified information. They had to either illegally obtain it. or illegally provide it to others – all actual crimes.
“The proof is the documents FOUND in his home.”
That is proof of posession.
That is not proof of an illegal act.
“They didn’t magically appear in his office or in some storage room”
Correct.
We do not know with certainty how they got there.
But we do with a high degree of probability.
Either Trump moved them to MAL while president
or GSA moved them to MAL.
Neither of which is a crime by Trump.
“He already admitted he took them during Sean Hannity’s interview.”
Don’t watch Hannity – pretty much ever. And certainly do not trust you.
Regardless, The president can take classified documents wherever he pleases and does all the time.
And he can leave them wherever he pleases.
“Thanks to Trump’s affinity to shoot his mouth off rather than exercise his constitutional right to remain silent.”
Trump is behaving like someone who has no concern at all about this and is milking it for every political advantage he can get. Maybe he is bluffing. When EVER have you seen Trump bluff ?
“This is why no self respecting lawyer will work for him.”
And yet the credentials of Trump’s lawyers are better than those at DOJ.
After 6 years of Get Trump, this seems way too elementary to believe his army of lawyers and national security advisors didn’t see this coming. It has all the makings of a trap for the DOJ/FBI. Don’t forget that the FBI didn’t refer the matter to the DOJ when they concluded their investigation into Clinton’s private email account and server. In that case, it was determined she had highly classified information stored on the server and that it did not have the necessary safeguards against foreign hackers. Yet they concluded that while reckless, it was without criminal intent.
In Trump’s case, what’s different? Unlike Clinton, he was the President and he had the ultimate declassification authority. Were they declassified? Trump seems to believe so, or at least he believed he had the authority to have them at MAL. But let’s say they were not. Were they secured? The fact the FBI felt they could leave MAL in June under the condition the storage space be locked, suggests they didn’t have a national security concern at that time. Was there an intent to secretly hide the fact he had documents at MAL? I don’t believe that the dispute with the archives was a secret at all. It is a battle between PRA and NARA. No intent to commit a crime.
So what’s the difference between the Clinton case and the Trump case? Name, political party and the conservative agenda. Oh, and the not so minor fact that Biden’s gestapo will be gutted by Trump’s America First agenda, if they don’t find a way to take him out first.
THE BIG PICTURE REVEALS A CONTINUUM OF CONSPIRACY TO WRONGLY IMPLICATE AND MALICIOUSLY PROSECUTE REAL PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP.
“6 years of Get Trump” constitute an illegal conspiracy, a coup d’etat when he was president, violation and illicit nullification of the Constitution, and actionable abuse of power and malicious prosecution.
It’s long past time for the Supreme Court to review and decide against the criminal and criminal-of-high-office perpetrators of the “Get Trump” campaign from Peter “We Will Stop Him” Strzok, Page, McCabe, Comey, Obama et al. to Letitia James, N.Y. AG who is engaged in malicious prosecution, and the DOJ/FBI who have abused the power of their offices in an attempt to usurp the power of the executive branch regarding exclusive, executive branch material classification, declassification and archiving.
Where is the real-time, constitutionally adherent, Judicial Review Doctrine of Marbury v Madison and the DOJ policy statement?
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Judicial Review in the United States”
Annotation
The legitimacy of judicial review and the judge’s approach to judicial review are discussed.
Abstract
The doctrine of judicial review holds that the courts are vested with the authority to determine the legitimacy of the acts of the executive and the legislative branches of government.
– DOJ, Office of Justice Programs
From a lawyer that I read:
“My reading of the applicable law is that Trump needn’t do anything at all to declassify a document. In my view, all he has to do is DECIDE, and then act in conformity with that decision. So, I believe that if President Trump moves a classified document twelve inches, say moving it one foot out of the secured area into the common area, that’s all he has to do to declassify.
Taking the documents to Mar-a-Lago is an act in conformity with his decision to declassify. To me, it’s that easy.
I base my conclusion on that hypothetical I suggested when I first analyzed this problem. Here it is again. Suppose there’s a global diplomatic emergency. Major powers are about to go to war. Trump is in the Oval Office, intently reading a brand-new classified report that could defuse the entire situation: our intercepts prove a diplomat was really killed by an angry prostitute, not an assassin. Trump has minutes to spare before missiles fly. So the President jams the report in his jacket pocket, hops in the Beast, and races to the Serbian embassy, where he personally presses the report into the ambassador’s hands. And just like that, war is averted.
You with me so far? Believe me, the President is in the clear. He didn’t break any laws. But let’s take it up a notch. Now imagine the same scenario, but also imagine that Serbia is a U.S. enemy. So Trump is giving top-secret material directly to an enemy of the United States without consulting or even telling anybody.
I think it still doesn’t matter; I STILL believe what the President did in the hypothetical is 100% legal. It HAS to be, or the President would be completely hamstrung, especially in emergency situations.
Now ask yourself exactly WHEN in the hypothetical timeline did Trump “actually declassify” the Serbian prostitute intel? Was it when he handed the classified report to the Serbian ambassador? Was it when he got in the Beast with the report? Was it when he jammed the report in his jacket pocket?
Or, as I believe, was it the moment when, while he was reading the report and realizing what he needed to do, the President silently made a decision to declassify? That’s what I think. I think all it takes is a decision. The President doesn’t have to tell anybody until he’s ready to disclose. That’s the only thing that makes sense.”
This scenario is irrelevant because Trump is not the current President. A more apt scenario would be Obama doing this with intel available to him while he was president, but in 2019, when Trump was President. Could he undermine Trump and claim he declassified it with a thought back in 2015? No, everyone would ask for proof.
+100
You miss the point.
It is not irrelevant. The President has plenary power to give classified documents to the enemy.
(But you claim. Not to declassify and move.)