Columns, Congress, Politics

Swalwell’s Opposition to Parental Rights is Wrong Legally, Medically, and Politically

Below is my column in Fox.com on the Swalwell attack on parents seeking a greater voice in the education of their children. We discussed the tweet earlier and how it makes a curious argument based on legal and medical standards for clients and patients.

Here is the column:

The fault lines for the 2024 elections are already taking shape with the two parties in diametrically opposed positions and there is no greater divide than over parental rights. That stark difference was no more evident than in a tweet from Rep. Eric Swalwell who mocked the notion of parents making major decisions in the education of their children.

The California Democrat insisted that it is akin to “putting patients in charge of their own surgeries? Clients in charge of their own trials?” Swalwell declared: “Please tell me what I’m missing here … This is so stupid.”

What Rep. Swalwell, a lawyer, is missing is called informed consent.

Since he asked for assistance, let’s deal with each in turn.

Patients and medical consent

American torts have long required consent in medical torts. Indeed, what Swalwell seemed to suggest would be battery for doctors to make the key decisions over surgical goals or purposes. Indeed, even when doctors secured consent to operate on one ear, it was still considered battery when they decided in the operation to address the other ear in the best interests of the patient. Mohr v. Williams (Minn. 1905).

In Canterbury v. Spence the court rejected claims that a physician can make key decisions given “the patient’s right of self-determination.” Thus, doctors in the United States do have to secure the consent of patients in what they intend to do in surgeries or other medical procedures. (There are narrow exceptions such things as “substituted consent” or emergencies that do not apply here).

Ironically, California has one of the strongest patient-based consent rules. As the California Supreme Court stated in Cobbs v. Grant (1972): “Unlimited discretion in the physician is irreconcilable with the basic right of the patient to make the ultimate informed decision regarding the course of treatment to which he knowledgeably consents to be subjected.”

While obviously a patient cannot direct an operation itself, the doctor is expected to explain and secure the consent of the patient in what a surgery will attempt and how it will be accomplished. That is precisely what parents are demanding in looking at the subjects and books being taught in school. Moreover, that is precisely the role of school boards, which has historically exercised concurrent authority over the schools with the teachers hired under the school board-approved budgets.

Clients and legal consent

Swalwell is also wrong in suggesting that clients are not in charge of their own trials. Not only must attorneys secure the consent of their clients on what will be argued in trial, but they can be removed by their clients for failure to adequately represent their interests. It would be malpractice for a lawyer to tell a client, as suggested by Swalwell, that they do not control the major decisions in their own cases.

Ironically, informed consent is defined in the Model Rules of Professional Conduct as the “agreement by a person to a proposed course of conduct after the lawyer has communicated adequate information and explanation about the material risks of and reasonably available alternatives to the proposed course of conduct.”

Obviously, lawyers must follow their own ethical and professional judgment in trials, and tactical choices are generally left up to the lawyers. However, the main objectives of the trial remain for the client to “knowingly and voluntarily assume” the risks of a particular course. Metrick v. Chatz (Ill. App. Ct. 1994).

Much like the claim of parents, clients demand the right to reject a plan for trial and the arguments or means to be used at trial. This right of consent is ongoing and can be exercised at any point in the litigation.

Informed consent

Of course, the key to informed consent is that parents are given the information needed to secure their consent. School districts have been resisting such disclosures and pushing back on parental opposition to major curriculum or policy decisions.

What is most striking about Swalwell’s reference to patients and clients is that they, under his educational approach, have far more voice in a wart removal or a parking ticket challenge than the education of their children. If anything, his analogies support the call for greater parental knowledge and consent.

In other words, “what is missing here” is that Rep. Swalwell’s interpretation could constitute both medical and legal malpractice. It may also constitute political malpractice as both parties now careen toward the 2024 elections.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University and a practicing criminal defense attorney. He is a Fox News contributor.

107 thoughts on “Swalwell’s Opposition to Parental Rights is Wrong Legally, Medically, and Politically”

  1. swallwell, the adulterer who likes sleeping with chinese spies while on the house intelligence committee, will not recognize what a real POS he is and just fade into the woodwork. i am sure this guy’s IQ is sub 80, which renders him prime democrat/lefty material.

  2. Uh Mr Swallowswell, we ARE in charge of our own surgery by choosing whether or not to have them. We are NOT some hippie communion, so parents ARE in charge of their children and their education. Now go back to Fang Fang and do your Bang Bang!

    1. Brian: What a great way to end the night, with a chuckle/smile over a very polarizing topic. Thank you

  4. One of the core tenants of the Communists is that your children don’t belong to you ,…they belong to the community.
    they aren’t fooling anyone.

  5. It is political bolsheviks like swallowswell that people will fight to have their kids taught what is necessary , not what the “state” deems so. I removed my son from “pooblik” education and homeschooled him his last 5 years of schooling. Why you ask ? , because of sods thinking like swallowswell in the teachers ranks whom deem it their purview to indoctrinate wokeness and not educate our children.
    And the demokratzis amongst us somehow think its all good and smarmy to let the goobermint decide the curriculum of our children when the govt cant even define what a woman or an illegal alien is. Your parental rights are 2nd to their thinking of how goobermint should peg your children. Whose the fascist party ?…yeah it’s the dems bro…and it really shows.

  6. No, Rep. Eric Swalwell is absolutely correct legally, medically, and politically.

    Prior to Rep. Swalwell’s attack on parents seeking a greater voice in the education of their children, he thoroughly discussed and vetted his position with Chinese Diplomat Christine Fang, who fully approved of his position.

    In fact, Ms. Fang had an important role in helping Rep. Swawell to better formulate and present his position. And Ms. Fang affirmed that Rep. Swalwell’s position aligned perfectly with China’s views of how American parents should be dealt with. That should be good enough for any of us. And we should, therefore, have every confidence that Rep. Swalwell is best serving the interests of all Americans.

  7. Like A.A. Milne’s Winnie-the-Pooh, Swalwell paid way too much attention to his Honey Pot (the Chinese Spy who shagged him), and not enough to the US national interest (a Congressman on the Intelligence Committee, consorting with a foreign spy). Like Pooh, Swalwell is a Vear of Very Little Brain, who often speaks, and behaves, stupidly.

    “When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.” A.A. Milne, Winnie-the-Pooh

  8. Republicans want to control women, and their healthcare, republicans want to tell you who you can love and marry. Republicans want to control what students read or see or learn. Makes sense, they now want to tell teachers what they can or cannot teach their children.

      1. You sure about that? I don’t think fish wings really knows better than that. If he (or she) did, they wouldn’t have typed it.

    2. Why shouldn’t the public decide what is important to teach in public schools? You realize (no you don’t) that community-based curriculum has been a facet of public education since, well, forever. Want to know why democrats are willing to waste trillions of dollars and countless years of the lives of young, not-college-material-kids by sending them to college for free? Because the colleges do not have community-based curriculum, they are liberal cesspools that are responsible for generations of morons and overly-indebted fools.

      Democrats want to bang children and import sex slaves, they want to tell you what you can and cannot say or think. Democrats have tripled the defense budget and are overspending that. Democrats want to promote trannies and other mentally ill people in elementary schools as normal people, they even elect them. Democrats have been caught with Chinese spies in their beds and employ and the party seems AOK with that. Democrats are responsible for the fallings of Detroit, Philly, Baltimore, St.Louis, ……… Democrats want to tell you that republicans are evil because they think babies shouldn’t be murdered by their irresponsible (an overwhelming %) mothers. Democrats want to tell you to think republicans give a shit about who you love and marry, we don’t. Democrats won’t tell you that the overwhelming violence against minorities and homosexuals are committed by, minorities and homosexuals – they want you to believe that someone else (whitey) is behind it and pull the heartstrings of moronic suburban white women about it.

      I fail to see one valid reason for a person to vote for democrats unless you are a sociopath or profiting from the harm they cause.

      See how easy that is?

    3. But Democrats can’t define what a “woman” is. They just put a the first black “woman” on the Supreme Court who can’t say what a “woman” is. Democrats say not everyone with a uterus is a woman and not everyone who is a woman has a uterus. So who the hell are you talking about? What “women” do Republicans want to control? The ones with or without a penis? Y’all just so mixed up.

    4. “Republicans want to control women, and their healthcare”

      No, actually, abortion is not ‘healthcare.’ Republicans are trying to discourage killing babies as form of birth control. They are trying to prevent aborting even more than the millions of babies already aborted (ie murdered) — mostly black babies. Democrats want to make sure the ‘business of abortion’ keeps going full speed ahead. There’s lots of money for Democrats in it, all being laundered through Planned Parenthood. Eugenics and population control is good — if you’re a Democrat.

      Democrats don’t care about women. Don’t be stupid. Democrats want to force (mandate) experimental vaccine injections into women and children — against their will — in order to work or go to school. Scary? You bet.

      Republicans are on the right side of both of the issues. History will show as much.

  9. In the future please don’t waste you time on deconstructing Swalwell’s writings. The man is a mental midget.

  10. Jonathan: I have always supported parental involvement in their kids education. My mother was active in the PTA when I was in grade school. But in my day parents would never think of trying to dictate what was taught in in the classroom. But today so-called “parental rights” groups are trying to do just that.

    After the 1954 Brown v Board of Education decision White parents burned books, physically threatened White teachers who tried to introduce Black themes and issues. They called that a “communist trick”. Today hardly an eyebrow would be raised when a teacher leads a class in a discussion of MLK’s “I Have a Dream” speech. But now we see an echo of that earlier period with “parental rights” groups attempting to ban the teaching of certain subjects like racism and LGBTQ themes being discussed in public schools. The Q is whether these groups have a right to do that? The answer is no. The Supreme Court has never held that parents have a right to dictate educational policy. Parents do have options. They can home school their kids or enroll them in private or religious schools. But even there “parental rights” re education remain subject to state regulation.

    This whole thing with Rep. Swalwell’s statement is a tempest in a teapot. A client’s legal consent and a patient’s right to informed consent are not relevant in the context of education. But even in the medical context a patient, while entitled to know the options, can’t dictate how the procedure is conducted, whether anesthesiologist will be required, etc. A patient does not get to dictate surgical policy for the entire hospital. But right-wing inspired “parental rights” groups are trying to do what patients in hospitals can’t. They are pushing for the right to dictate what is taught to ALL students. It is part of the “culture wars” fight. White parents don’t want ANY child to learn about racism or LGBTQ themes. It’s part of the larger effort by right-wing groups to gut public education, to prevent any curricula other then “White” traditional values. In states controlled by the GOP laws have been passed to give “parental rights” groups virtual veto power over school curriculum. Books can be banned. I have written often about book banning but the subject is apparently not on your radar because, for you, when conservatives ban books it’s acceptable–no censorship or “free speech” issues there. A strange contradiction for a “free speech purist” to take..

    Writing in the 1960s the historian Richard Hofstadter wrote about conservatives that felt the country had been “taken away from them…”. He called this the “paranoid style” characterized by “heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy”. You say the “fault lines for the 2024 elections are being drawn around the fight over “parental rights”. This issue was not on the minds of voters this year and I doubt it will be in two years. But part of your job description is to stoke the fires of the “culture wars”–the false conspiracy claim that liberal elites are trying to poison the minds of our children. I think this fits perfectly in Hofstadter’s description of conservatives like you.

    1. Dennis McIntyre, you tell us that parents have no right to know what their children are being taught. In a time when parents had no right to know what their children were being taught the children were being taught that the Sun rotated around the earth. This teaching was being done by the “experts” of the day. The parents at that time where not allowed to question what was being taught. The stack of burning wood was the fate of the parents who disagreed. You would have found yourself very comfortable in those days. Why do you refuse to look at the failings of the past to come to your conclusions? I have to hand it to you. You are very consistent. Emerson said “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

      1. Thinkitthrough: Once again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Where in my comment did I say “parents have no right to know what their children are being taught” ? I have never taken that position. I support the right of parents to be actively involved in their children’s education. When my kids were young I always attended parent-teacher nights. Now that I have granddaughters I have attended all their school events–“grandparent night”, school concerts, etc.

        But I have never tried to tell a teacher what he or she could teach or what curricula was appropriate. The problem is that the so-called “parental rights” movement wants to do just that. They are trying to compel school districts to tell teachers they cannot discuss certain “hot button” issues like sexual identity, racism or related issues. They have been successful in getting certain books banned from school libraries. That’s censorship and I oppose it because when a small group thinks they can decide what all kids can read or discuss in class it is a bridge too far. If the parents in such a group don’t want their kids to be exposed to certain subjects that is their right but they shouldn’t be able to dictate for all students. The have a choice–home school their kids or put them in private or religious schools.

        Kids are curious. When one of my granddaughters was in, I think it was the 2nd or 3rd grade, she asked her teacher the meaning of “queer”. Other kids raised their hands because they had heard a lot of misinformation. The teacher answered appropriately and referred my granddaughter to certain books in the school library. No problem there, right? But the “parental rights” movement would prohibit that discussion. It’s not only censorship but nonsensical. If a student can’t get a straight answer from her teacher she will seek answers elsewhere–and have to deal with a lot of misinformation. Parents are a resource but they often feel embarrassed by discussing sex or other issues that might be sensitive. And they often are misinformed themselves and don’t have the resources to engage in intelligent discussions with their kids.

        Is my position now clear enough for you? Your quote from Emerson misinterprets its meaning. Emerson’s intent was a criticism or refusal to change one’s mind or adjust position in light of new facts or different situations. The last sentence of Emerson’s quote in “Self-Reliance” is “To be great is to be misunderstood”. That’s my problem with you. Your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge what you don’t know. You don’t think it through! Prairie Rose, are you paying attention?

        1. You often spread your opinion beyond the scope of reason, logic, and intelligence in order to justify your position. Parents are not objecting to educational teaching of “readin, writin’, and ‘rithmetic.”
          They are objecting to the indoctrination of extra-curricular dogma into educational subjects, including one example on this blog about racism in a MATH course. When you say about your granddaughter, “I think it was the 2nd or 3rd grade, she asked her teacher the meaning of “queer”. NO, Dennis, the CORRECT answer is: When kids are that young, you answer by telling them that you only teach reading, or arithmetic, etc., and they should ask their parents for an answer to that question. If they are OLDER students, you can refer them to the library.
          Teachers only get to control CORE SUBJECT material that students will need to prove efficiency in, in order to pass to the next class. Please educate yourself on MAJORITY of American sentiment, regardless of political party.
          https://nypost.com/2022/10/26/nj-school-boards-lawyer-parents-cannot-dictate-what-their-children-are-taught/

          2. Anonymous: Your reasoning is much like that of Thinkitthrough. Like him your opinions are formed without the benefit of either reason, logic or intelligence. Let me explain. I know what the polls show. American parents are sharply divided over the discussion of sexuality or racism in K-12. Most Republicans are against it. Most Dems support it. It’s part of the “culture wars” the GOP is trying to exploit for political purposes. Gov. DeSantis in Florida is trying to do that with his “Don’t Say Gay” law. He wants teachers to stick to the 3-Rs. They are prohibited from discussing racism or sexual identity in the classroom. Such censorship is not conducive to free expression in Florida schools. In California where I live there are no such restrictions. Teachers and students are free to discuss issues not directed related to the core curriculum but nevertheless important. You don’t enhance the educational experience by banning the discussion of certain subjects. You are living in a “Back to the Future” universe by saying only the 3-Rs subject should be taught.

            You erroneously claim that when students want to discuss sexual identity the teacher should tell the student to discuss the subject with their parents. And “OLDER” students should be referred to the library. First, many parents lack the professional expertise and training to discuss such issues with small children–especially when a religious component is involved. Second, at what age does a student become “OLDER”? 12, 13, 14, 15? By the time a child is 14 or 15 their sexual identity is already fully formed. I know from personal experience. To refer a 14 0r 15 year old to the school library is a moot issue by then. It’s pretty clear you are living in the stone age when it comes to the issues important to children these days. But you THINK you know and that is the problem.

            And you say “Teachers only get to control CORE SUBJECT material” and you say a “MAJORITY of American sentiment” agrees. Then you cite for support the article in the NY Post. I am perplexed. The title of the article is “New Jersey school board’s lawyer says parents cannot dictate what their children are taught”. The lawyer, John Comegno, told the Lawrence Township Board of Ed. that “parents cannot dictate what their children are taught, it is to determine where they attend…But please know…if your students attend these awesome schools, they’re going to be instructed in this curriculum, which is consistent with state learning standards. That’s not binding. If you choose to have your child attend elsewhere, that’s your right”. Comegno was responding to certain parent criticism of the district’s transgender policy that provides the district “shall accept a student’s asserted gender identity” and that “parental consent is not required”. This is the point I was making in my previous comment and here. Teachers responsibilities don’t end with the 3-Rs. You may not like it but that’s the law in at least New Jersey and in California–and in many other states. Thankfully.

            So thanks for citing the NY Post article. It confirms what I having been saying–in every respect. You didn’t apparently intend it but you just provided another confirmation, through that article, of the law of unintended consequences! But keep trying. One day you may land a glove on me. But I seriously doubt it. Because when it comes to discussions of issues on this blog I always come out the winner!

            1. Are you being paid by the word? Just being the most verbose does not imply that you’re winning the argument. No white parent would object to history lessons involving civil rights struggles in our country or discussions about MLK for example. What EVERYONE should object to is shaming and demonizing people based on their race and attempting to hold modern people accountable for the sins of someone else’s ancestors. It’s THAT ridiculous!

              1. Agreed. And I just looked up the cited NY Post article, which does say as Dennis claims. However, there are several pages of comments from parents that followed. I guess that was the point.

              2. MiddleOfTheRoad: No, I don’t get paid for anything I say here. But my verbosity is barely matched by my intelligence. They go hand in hand. You, on the other hand, have nothing really to say of substance so you prattle about “shaming and demonizing people based on their race…”. That is the worn out phrase pushed by Donald Trump and the GOP for years and in the midterms. Didn’t appeal to voters this time around did it? You are like the chicken who got caught in the middle of the road. It’s a hard place to be and survive. I just think I set the record for the shortest comment on record–at least for me.

                1. “Didn’t appeal to voters this time around did it?”

                  Actually, Dennis, it did, if you look at the numbers, and ignore the media/Dem spin and slop.

                2. Dennis – ALL of your posts make fairly simple and obvious significant logical errors.

                  Nearly every single argument you make fails the most simple test of – How is that likely to work in the real world.

                  While you constantly presume evil on the part of those who oppose your efforts – the evil Koch Bros are funding an astro-turf parental rights movement – you never consider that evil doers would try to take adavantage of your own prefered policies.

                  Teachers alone unsupervised – often one on one with kids in school openly having wide ranging discussions of sex at most any age – What could go wrong ?

                  In left wing nut world – the small fraction of gay and trans people will grow up happier, while peodophiles accrss the country will turn a blind eye to the billboard you put up announcing “happy hunting”.
                  or do you really beleive that gay and trans people are a majority – and off course – how is it that the species survives if that is the case

                  Nearly every aspect of the policies that you are seeking to impliment actively involves conduct that is giant red flag signs of child sexual abuse.

                  Keeping secrets from parents.
                  In fact the very group of kids you claim to be trying to help – those with weak family support are the most vulnerable to child molesters,
                  and your policies advocate that ordinary teachers do exactly what child molestors do.
                  Treating children as adults,
                  having adult conversations with children

                  You are litterally thrusting teachers into a role where the conduct you are trying to encourage is indistinguishable from that of pedophiles.

                  Do we have to go forward with this idiocy and wait through a generation of damaged children – before you are capable of grasping that the Koch Bros are not the threat you need to be worried about.

                  Finally the above is just ONE massive and obvious flaw in the nonsense you are spraying.

                  You say you are intelligent – nothing you write demonstrates that.

              3. DM is ridiculous on so many levels.

                If he read and thought about his own arguments one would hope he would understand that independent of politics or viewpoints, no sane person would want the world to actually work as he pretends.

                Leftism is a mind virus that destroys the ability to think logically.

            2. “DeSantis in Florida is trying to do that with his “Don’t Say Gay” law. He wants teachers to stick to the 3-Rs. They are prohibited from discussing racism or sexual identity in the classroom. Such censorship is not conducive to free expression in Florida schools. “

              Dennis, Florida is one of the freest states in the union. You don’t understand Florida’s laws restricting teacher indoctrination, and you don’t understand racism. I will leave out sex because your side of the aisle doesn’t know what a woman is. The proof is that when one presents alternative facts you don’t discuss them but move on to something else, repeating the same ignorant things later.

              You complain about people being unwilling to discuss, but you cannot hold up your end.

              1. S. Meyer: Let’s try to unravel your many non-sensical claims. You make several unfounded allegations. You say (1) I don’t “understand Florida’s laws restricting teacher indoctrination”; (2) I don’t understand “racism”; (3) I don’t “know what a woman is” and (4) “when one presents alternative facts you don’t discuss them…”. Starting with the last claim first you demonstrate a woeful misunderstanding. There are “facts” and their are “opinions”. When I say the moon rotates around the earth that is a “fact”. Galileo, the father of modern astronomy, proved it. There are no “alternative facts” to that statement of fact. When I say Trump just announced he is running again in 2024 for president that is a statement of fact. When I then say there is a snowball’s chance in hell he could get the nomination that is my “opinion”–it’s not a fact. You can’t have both “facts” and “alternative facts”. Regarding your (1) through (3) claims what “facts” do you offer to prove them? None. You simply make allegations without backing them up with facts. For example, if I don’t understand “racism” please WHY you think that. Making allegations without backup facts doesn’t require a response on my part.

                1. First you start with nonsense and a bunch of things that have nothing to do with the discussion.

                  “Regarding your (1) through (3) claims what “facts” do you offer to prove them?”

                  We have gone through this before and you ran away when the facts were provided. You speak nonsense when you say “Don’t Say Gay” law. You demonstrate that you do not know what the law says. I explained it to you in an early discussion and you repeat the same words. You belong to the flat earth society and will never change despite the proof.

                  “Dennis, Florida is one of the freest states in the union.”

                  You are disputing that. It’s OK. You can go out in your rowboat alone and triple mask. We won’t laugh at you because we are used to you.

                  I said: “you don’t understand racism.”. Many things you say is an indication that those words are correct. But we have a simple solution to the question. You can tell us what you believe.
                  1)Do you believe in color over character and merit or
                  2)Do you believe in character and merit over color.

                  All you statements indicate #1, but you can correct that misconception or be known as a racist.

                  Was the Supreme Court nominee able to tell us what a woman is? Her words prove her dilemma. I have proven that my allegations have back-up and you have proven that you run away and won’t correct the record.

                  Watch. Lets hear your answer or run away as an admission of guilt.

                2. ” You say (1) I don’t “understand Florida’s laws restricting teacher indoctrination”;”
                  You don’t that is self evident.
                  You keep drastically misrepresenting them.
                  And you have delusional ideas about teaching.

                  No teacher has lost there right to free speech.
                  What they have lost is the right to a state sponsored capitive audience.
                  No student has lost the right to free speech or to read whatever they wish.
                  What they have lost is free state provided access to porn that has no business as part of a school curiculum.

                  “(2) I don’t understand “racism”;”
                  So far you have shown no evidence that you do.
                  Regardless if SM is not correct – prove him wrong.

                  “(3) I don’t “know what a woman is””
                  if SM is not correct – prove him wrong.

                  “(4) “when one presents alternative facts you don’t discuss them…”. Starting with the last claim first you demonstrate a woeful misunderstanding. There are “facts” and their are “opinions”.”
                  Correct SM is just politely saying you have no idea what the facts are.
                  He is correct.

                  “You can’t have both “facts” and “alternative facts”.”
                  Mostly Correct – if there is a conflict between asserted facts – one is false.
                  Thus far that has been YOUR claimed facts.

                  “Regarding your (1) through (3) claims what “facts” do you offer to prove them?”
                  Your posts prove those.

                  “You simply make allegations without backing them up with facts.”
                  SM has no need to back up his allegations – the proof is your own posts.

                  “”I don’t understand “racism” please WHY you think that.”
                  Why SM thinks that – is because of everything YOU say.

                  “Making allegations without backup facts doesn’t require a response on my part.”
                  Correct, Nor are you obligated to respond to the truth.

                  But to repeat SM based on YOUR POSTS
                  You do not understand Florida’s law.
                  You do not understand teaching.
                  You do not understand censorship
                  You do not understand free speech
                  You do not understand the rights and obligations of a teacher.
                  You do not understand the rights and obligations of a parent.
                  You do not understand the rights and obligations of a student.
                  The state does not have rights. Specifically it does not have a free speech right.
                  The state has powers. The states power to speak is limited to what is necescary to perform its constitutional and lawful duties.
                  The state is NOT free to religiously indoctrinate anyone. The state is not free to politically indoctrinate anyone. The state is not free to sexually indoctrinate anyone.
                  Teachers – agents of the state, are bound by the same limits as the state itself, while that are acting in their role as agents of the state.

                  The possibilities for education are limitless. The education that can be accomplished in the 2000+ days of a K-12 education are finite.
                  What is to be taught MUST be curated. Teachers are not free to teach whatever they please. Most of us grasp the stupidity of dedicating an entire year to studying Jupiters moon IO. It is arguable that teaching the fundimentals of sex and pregancy do not belong in a K-12 curiculum.
                  Sexual identity – which the left constantly assures me is a choice has absolutely no place in public education. Just as my preference for vanila ice cream over chocolate does not.
                  It is not censorship to insist that teachers not waste precious educational time pushing one choice over another.

                3. Dennis – you are an easy target.

                  Once in a while David Benson manages to make a provocative and thoughtful argument.
                  And even when he is wrong he is atleast familiat with the position he is arguing.

                  You are not. Your arguments are poor. your logic is abysmal. Frankly it is only logic to someone who has no clue what logic is.
                  You never consider the implications of your own arguments.
                  You never sit back and say – If what I am saying is actually true – what does that mean for how the world would work – or not.

                  If a Florida Teachers starts a unit on “the chronicals of the elders of zion” – is that OK with you ?
                  Would it be censorship to remove that book from the library ?
                  Would it be interfering with the free speech rights of teachers and students for the state to dictate that schools may not teach that “jews are vermin” ?

                  It is self evident that to you censorship exclusively means any impediment to advancing your ideology – it is not censorship to prohibit you from using the machinery of the state to sell your ideology.

                  You claim to be intelligent – self evidently you are not. Your not even intelligent enough to avoid hubris.

                  I can not think of anyone else posting here who has boasted of their own intelligence.
                  We each demonstrate our intelligence, logic and reasoning skills though our posts.

                  You should not accept my assertions as truth because of my IQ or SAT scores or awards. nor those of anyone else.
                  Your arguments need to stand on their own.

                  Yours don’t.

                  Shredding them is shooting fish in a barrel.
                  It is self evident that whatever arguments you sell, whether they are your own or others regurgitated, you have never considered how they would actually work. What the implications of your arguments are. Alan Derschowitz calls it “the shoe on the other foot test”.

                  It is pretty easy to falsify your arguments by assuming they are true and then applying them more broadly.

                  The only challenge I find in your posts is finding new and creative ways to falsify them.
                  They are trivial to falsify – in most instance your arguments are show obviously wrong they collapse without effort.

                4. “[I]f I don’t understand “racism” please WHY you think that.”

                  Since you claim to understand “racism,” what is its definition?

            3. Wow. If a child asks a teacher “what does queer mean?” the teacher can answer the same way they should answer if a child asks “is God real?”

              Is limiting a teacher’s ability to promote religion in the classroom also not conducive to free expression?

            4. Do you actually read what you post ?

              You have completely bizzare ideas about education, that you clearly have not thought through.

              Do you really believe public education is some unstructured free for all directed by the mood of students and teachers at the moment ?

              You do not seem to have contemplated the fact that your odd view of education – independent of issues of race and sexuality will fail misserably and result in damaged kids.
              Frankly as you seem to see education – why bother to even have schools ?

              Neither kids, nor their teachers have the freedom’s you presume, because schools exist for an actual purpose – the education of our kids.

              They are not day care, they are not anarchist conventions.
              Outside of Germany where schools were created to produce better cannon fodder. schools were generally created by parents to unburden them from some of their responsibility to teach their kids reading writing and arithmetic.
              Today that STILL remains the core purpose of education.

              We have by choice of parents expanded the scope of education.
              But the choice to have kids, and the responsibility that comes with that choice resides with PARENTS.

              Parents are flawed and lacking in skills – as you note, but the ultimate responsibility and choice is THEIRS not yours.
              Regardless of the problems parents may have – there is massive evidence that the more government intervenes in the role of parent the worse outcomes we get. Even when government legitimately steps in where parents are sexually or physically abusive or negligent – the results are still bad.

              It is hubris on your part to think that some gaggle of 20 something teachers is on the whole going to do a better job than parents.

            5. Are these children experiencing actual racism at school ? If so then it is the duty of the school to directly confront that actual racism and deal with it.

              We have through government decided that specific age appropriate sexual education should be provided to students. We did so for the purpose of reducing sexual abuse, and preventing teen pregnancy.

              We did not do so for the purpose of informing 3rd graders of the use of sex toys or contemplation of various sexual fetishes.

              The necessary sexual education of a person through High School is quite minimal. We have the rest of our lives to explore sex.

              We spend a little time in schools teaching students about nutrition. We teach them a little about how to eat healthy. We do not try to sort their personal presences for french cuisine or sushi.

              The resources available for education are limited – as are the actual skills and knowledge of those doing the education.
              I would venture that a welder who has bought a home and has two kids has more real world experience than a 20 something student who does not even know how much they owe in student loans. I would also bet that they know more of what matters about sex than the 20 something.

            6. When it comes to discussion of issues on this blog, you ALWAYS come out as clueless. With a shallow understanding of reality.

              You should seriously reread your own posts. You should start thinking – What am I missing ? Does what I am saying actually work ?
              How does what I am saying fit into the real world ?

              Your arguments have so many obviously false assumptions.

              You keep ranting about censorship and free speech – how exactly is it that you plan on a working educational system where students and teachers are free to discuss whatever they want whenever they want ?

              Schools are purpose built institutions. It is not censorship or a threat to free speech to focus on their actual purpose.

            7. Can a school district in NJ decide to teach students that jews are vermin to be eradicated ?
              Is the only recourse of parents if that is the policy of the school district to pay to send their kids to private schools.
              Did the elected legislature of the state of NJ mandate that schools must accept a students asserted gender identity ?

              Do you actually think you can make the world work if each of us is compelled to accept as reality – whatever the next person we bump into on the street claims ?

              Do those of you on the left EVER consider how the idiocy you offer is ever going to actually work ?

              Anyone not a complete moron would grasp that the arguments made by the NJ SB lawyer are specious, illogical and will fail disasterously.

              You can not make a world that actually works that way.

              Attny. Comegno has just argued that if some aparatich in the NJ DOE decides that students must all get their noses peirced – there is absolutely nothing parents can do beyond pay for private school.

              Neither he nor you, nor most of the left actually understand what the rule of law is.

        3. “They are trying to compel school districts to tell teachers they cannot discuss certain “hot button” issues “

          How about if teachers realized that their economic well-being was greatly affected by Medicare and Social Security so that they started teaching your grandchildren that after age 70, you are useless? Why spend so much money on your age group and you? Are you going to object to the discussion?

          I noted in a former discussion how objectional you found it for people to consider getting rid of Social Security for you (they weren’t). How about it, Dennis? Suddenly we have a hot-button issue for you. Are you ready to keep quiet?

    2. “Parents do have options. They can home school their kids or enroll them in private or religious schools.”

      This isn’t just about parents. Plenty of people do not want their tax dollars spent on corporate or political agendas. How might taxpayers want their money being used to educate the children of their community? People have a say in how their tax dollars are spent, not just how much. That’s why we elect representatives, to represent our ideas and interests.

      1. Prairie Rose: Are you paying attention now? You think just like a lot of others on this blog’ See my response to Anonymous. But you want to shift the discussion of how taxpayer dollars are “spent on corporate or political agendas”. And what might those “agendas” be in relation to public education? You don’t say. But I will go along for the sake of argument. Everyone complains about how their taxpayer dollars are spent. I don’t like the waste in the Pentagon budget. But do I get a say in whether we spend that money is spent on a new tank or a new destroyer? Nope. We elect members of Congress to supposedly represent our interests–to make sure our money is wisely spent. But what actually happens is the defense contractors come in, pour money into campaigns and they decide where the money is spent. Don’t recall you complaining about that situation. The Biden infrastructure bill was passed with bipartisan support. Billions of dollars are pouring into the states to repair our broken infrastructure. Now I would like my state’s DOT to repair the road leading up to my huge estate. It’s full of potholes. Do you think I will have any say on how that infrastructure money is spent. Again, nope. Those decisions are made by people a lot smarter than me.

        So what makes you think all of a sudden you can dictate education policy for your state or the nation? Do you have an advanced education degree?. Have you worker as an educator? I don’t have those credentials so I don’t pretend to know what is the appropriate education curriculum. But you seem to think you do. As does Anonymous and others who think like him. Now, of course, you can choose elected officials who will pursue your agenda. Beyond that we have to rely on the professional educators to make the right decisions. Sometimes they get it wrong but most of the time they get it right. That’s what we pay them for.

        But you seem to think that decisions on education policy should be in the hands of parents–specifically the “parental rights” groups who are pushing school boards to prohibit the teaching of anything related to gender identity or racism. It’s the “culture wars” issue that is dividing Americans. It’s a messy fight that serves no one’s real interests if they are really interested in quality education for their kids.

        So exactly what are the “corporate and political agendas” you have in mind? I have some in mind that might surprise you. I know what the Koch Bros. have in mind. They spend millions every year to influence public education and university policies. And not for good reasons. They want universities to support their version of the capitalist enterprise. They don’t want any discussion of CRT because that might cause students to Q how capitalism perpetuates structural racism. And the Koch Bros certainly don’t want kids in public schools to learn anything about how racism works. That might “poison” their minds when they get to college. That is to be prevented at all cost. So they and other wealthy corporations pour a lot of money into the “parental rights” movement to keep that from happening. That’s the ugly reality behind calls for more parental control of the school curriculum. It has nothing to do with quality education. If you don’t believe me do your own research. Follow the money trail. Find out who is putting money into the “parental rights” movement and then get back to me. If I’m wrong I’ll eat crow right her on this blog!

        1. Dennis,
          Your tone makes it difficult to want to engage with you.

          “You think just like a lot of others on this blog’”

          “Just like” Perhaps I am often in agreement with others on this blog but not always. I’d really rather be treated as an individual than from ‘this group’ or ‘that group’. Why should I engage with you as an individual if you are not going to treat me as one?

          “See my response to Anonymous.”

          Ok. Well, I read it. To refer back to your post and the word “queer”, I find it odd that anyone made the assumption that it was in reference to anything sexual. The first definition of this perfectly useful, non-sexual word is “odd, strange, eccentric”. Alice in Wonderland says, ““Dear, dear! How queer everything is to-day! And yesterday things went on just as usual. I wonder if I’ve been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning? I almost think I can remember feeling a little different. But if I’m not the same, the next question is, Who in the world am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle!” Alice in Wonderland is an excellent book for second-graders, who, to improve their reading, would need to ask questions about unfamiliar vocabulary words.

          “But you want to shift the discussion of how taxpayer dollars are “spent on corporate or political agendas”. And what might those “agendas” be in relation to public education?”

          It’s a tangled mess, so getting into it without writing a book would be tricky and time-consuming. I will attempt to be brief.

          On the corporate side, we have NCLB (now called ESSER, I think), then we got Common Core, and now Next Generation Science Standards (whose main focus is to teach evolution and climate change rather than anything organized around the main branches of science—Earth Science, Biology, Physics, Chemistry—or taught so that kids at a young age can organize the information in their minds and have familiarity with lots of knowledge about these subjects (the Grammar of the Sciences) such that they can wrestle with the big, cross-curricular questions that arise when they are to the Logic and Rhetoric stages of their development.

          NCLB, Common Core, Race to the Top, and NGSS are all corporate monstrosities that have done a great job of turning education into something that can be fed into a machine or broken into little bits and bytes. The knowledge and meaning of the ages cannot be dissected into pieces this way, as though all those little pieces are the thing that matters. Maybe it works, though, if the goal is to produce little automatons who can fit into a corporate machine and do as they are told. To be thinking, engaged people in charge of their self-governance, they need understanding of the big ideas from the ages and have a wide and diverse breadth of knowledge to draw upon as they consider the myriad of pressing contemporary issues facing us on the local, state, national, and international level.

          So much of what is in the mainstream discourse right now are divisive wedge issues, meant to keep us finger-pointing and distracted. Maybe, just maybe if they were actually discussed with nuance, some benefit might come of it, but considering the dismal state of most of the discourse, I’m not too optimistic. Perhaps better debate is happening around people’s kitchen tables.

          “Everyone complains about how their taxpayer dollars are spent. I don’t like the waste in the Pentagon budget. But do I get a say in whether we spend that money is spent on a new tank or a new destroyer? Nope. We elect members of Congress to supposedly represent our interests–to make sure our money is wisely spent.”

          Do you talk to your congressman about any of the bills they are expected to vote upon? Do you look at the budgets they are supposed to vote upon? Perhaps they inadvertently overlook waste in the various budgets (they are often pages and pages long—a ridiculous amount of reading for anyone—and that’s just the budgets!). If you looked at the budgets and/or bills, too, your perspective could help guide them in their decision-making—and some of that waste would get trimmed.

          “But what actually happens is the defense contractors come in, pour money into campaigns and they decide where the money is spent. Don’t recall you complaining about that situation.”

          There is a lot to complain about. The federal and state governments are rather large and the problems have more layers and interacting pieces than an onion. Just because I have not complained about it here does not mean I have not complained. To be forthright, I have been remiss in that I have not complained to my representatives like I ought to the degree that I ought. I, said with chagrin, am ignorant of too many things that my government is up to—some of it because they are not transparent with we the people, some of it because there really is just too much speeding by (and the media could not be bothered with reporting on hardly any of it), and an embarrassing chunk of it because I have not paid sufficient time or attention to the problems. The dragon just wanted to be petted and I did not. 🙁

          “I would like my state’s DOT to repair the road leading up to my huge estate. It’s full of potholes. Do you think I will have any say on how that infrastructure money is spent. Again, nope. Those decisions are made by people a lot smarter than me.”

          I think you are mistaken on this. I told my state representative about a state road near me that was full of potholes and the rep must have said something because now the road is actually fixed—beautifully repaved, not just patched.

          “So what makes you think all of a sudden you can dictate education policy for your state or the nation?”

          This is tricky to answer because of how you are wording the statement. I do not think I can “dictate education policy” for my state or the nation. I can try to influence representatives to, in turn, influence the decisions made at those levels. Why do you say “all of a sudden”? That’s just how our republic works.

          “Do you have an advanced education degree?”
          No. What does that have to do with anything? I am educated. Could be educated better for sure, but I have a pretty clear idea of what it means (or can mean) to be educated.

          “Have you worker as an educator?”
          Yes, but, again, so what? There are some things that experience, wisdom, and knowledge can impart to teachers, but most of our politicians who have been voting on bills affecting education for the entire nation aren’t educators either (nor does it appear that they have bothered to really think about the matter or listen to people who have; they do seem to listen to corporatists and/or lobbyists, though).

          “I don’t have those credentials so I don’t pretend to know what is the appropriate education curriculum.”

          Why do you need “credentials” to think about education? You can learn about it and ask questions. There are excellent books by thoughtful people on this matter—E.D. Hirsch, Mortimer Adler, Neil Postman, Susan Wise Bauer are a good start. What do people need to know and be able to do to be well-educated in a society that expects participatory self-governance?

          “Now, of course, you can choose elected officials who will pursue your agenda.”

          What do you think “my agenda” is?

          “But you seem to think that decisions on education policy should be in the hands of parents–specifically the “parental rights” groups who are pushing school boards”

          I’m not sure what you are referring to exactly.

          “It’s a messy fight that serves no one’s real interests if they are really interested in quality education for their kids.”

          On this particular sentence, I think I can loosely agree with you. I suspect we are coming at this from different angles, though.

          “I know what the Koch Bros. have in mind. They spend millions every year to influence public education and university policies. And not for good reasons.”

          Corporations of any political flavor should stay out of influencing education. The WEF does it, too, and they are international in scope. Lots of organizations (etc) disseminating their goals and ideas for education, too. 🙁

          “They want universities to support their version of the capitalist enterprise.”

          Universities should not be corporatist cogs. Corporatism does not equal capitalism.

          “how capitalism perpetuates structural racism”

          I do not think capitalism perpetuates ‘structural racism’ or ‘racism’. The problem of disparities between races is way more complex than to be pinned on an economic model or any other singular reason for that matter.

          I am more likely to agree that corporatism produces inequalities, but it is not an issue of race. It is between those “in the club” and those not. This is an elites versus everyone else issue. They are organized and well-connected and have a game plan while everyone else is just living their lives and doing things as individuals and/or family units.

          “So they and other wealthy corporations pour a lot of money into the “parental rights” movement to keep that from happening.”

          There is an ugliness afoot, I grant you, to erode our republic. It isn’t just coming from “conservatives”, however. Both “sides” are participating, playing keep-away from ‘we the people’. Circumventing the system with “parental choice” and whatnot breaks down the representational system and undermines taxpayers who are losing control of how their tax dollars are used. That is, when it comes down to it, taxation without representation.

          “That’s the ugly reality behind calls for more parental control of the school curriculum.”

          I agree that it should not be “parental control”–we have a republic in which there should be a high degree of communication with elected representatives regarding schools and school curriculum.

          However, parents should absolutely pay more attention to the education of their children and voice their thoughts on the matter with their elected representatives. Taxpayers should also pay more attention to the education of the children in their communities and voice their thoughts on the matter with their elected representatives. How should children be educated so they can in the future most effectively participate in the governance of their communities and be outstanding people in their own right? Our children are our future in so many nuanced ways—will they as individuals have the wisdom to do with excellence all the things needed in a society (individually, in their families, as neighbors, etc)?

        2. I get tired of this broken infrasturcture argument.

          How old are you ? I am old enough to have traveled the country in the 70’s.

          Our infrastructure is not broken.
          It is far better than it was.

          Infrastructe spending is a boon doogle – even more so than defense spending.

          Absolutely we need to MAINTAIN the infrastructure we have – for the most part that can easily be done by the states and local govenment using gas and municipal taxes.

          We need very small improvements to deal with a population that is still growing – barely.

          We do not need massive spending – all of which is fundamentally political graft in some form or another.

          And frankly given the current fiscal climate we desperately need to be reducing government spending every way possible.

          Inflation is absolutely disasterous – aside from leaving all of us able to afford less, it ultimately will eat the entire federal budget.

          The good news is that interest rates on US debt are fixed at the time bonds are issued – so nearly all US debt is at far lower interest rates than present. The bad news is that all new borrowing must be at current interest rates. Worse news is that we must borrow even to pay interest on our debt – and if you can not understand that does not end well you are a moron. Worse still most of our debt has been financed on short temr bods – which will come due and have to be refinanced at higher rates.

          If we do not get inflation under control quickly – all of our governments fiscal problems become much much worse both quickly and for a long time to come.

          There is no good reason AT ALL for the federal govenrment to spend additional money for ANY purpose right now (or possibly ever).
          Not infrastructure – not anything.

          You wish to ignore me ? Go ahead. The mess you make is YOUR responsibility.

        3. Is it beyond your ability to understand that we can not collectively spend whatever we want ?

          You say you do not want to spend money on destroyers and tanks – and I can respect that.

          But just because some government spending is not to your liking does not mean that we should – or even can spend whatever we want on whatever a majority of congress decides.

          If you have a spouse – are they free to buy a lottery ticket with family funds over your objections ?
          Probably. Unanimous consent is not required in most families for most spending.
          Can your spouse go to Las Vegas and blow all the family retirement funds ?
          I would guess you grasp that is not acceptable.

          If you wish to debate when a simple majority is all that is necescary to spend money we do not have – we can have that discussion.

          If you are just going to assume that government can do as it pleases so long as a majority agree – that obviously will not work.
          Aside from the political problems MMT obviously failed – there is no magic money tree.

        4. I do not care who is spending money on what.

          I am interested in what is right and what is not.
          What conforms with the rule of law and what does not
          What works and what does not.

          There is no “parental rights movement” – the responsibility for children has ALWAYS rested with the parents.
          So some extent government in various ways assists parents.
          It does not replace parents.
          The history of government trying is one of enormous failure.
          Charles Manson is what you get when government replaces parents.

          I do not need money for Koch or Teihle to tall you to keep your grubby little hands off my children.

        5. The ugly reality is that the LEFT is seeking – in many cases successfully – without the permission of parents to make fundimental change to an education system that is declining – as a result of PAST fundimental changes that the left imposed.

          The burden of proof is always on those seeking to change.

          Nor is that burden trivial.

          It is not actually sufficient for those on the left to prove that their new scheme of sex and racial education will accomplish what the promise.
          It is also incumbent upon the LEFT to demonstrate that the unintended consequences will not be net negative.

          It is not by accident that those on the left are being attacked as “groomers”.
          The sexual exploitation of children is very real.
          In the unlikely event that the frequency of child predators among teachers is low – something we know from decades of experience is false,
          the changes the left seeks to make to teaching will attract pedophiles to education like flies.

          The catholic church and boy scouts have been gutted by the exposure of deeply hidden sexual exploitation of children in the past.
          Schools have not be subject to the same institutional damage – despite the fact that past sexual predation in schools is greater than that in churches and boy scouts. But if you choose to hide from that – that is your problem.

          It is hard to argue that immersing teachers deeply into the sexual life of children is not putting up a billboard inviting sexual predators.

          Before you get your panties in a bunch – I do not beleive that gay. lesbian or even Trans people are more prone to pedophilia than any other group. But we already know that pedophiles will come where they are called.

          The LGBT community SHOULD have a vested interest is opposing public policy idiocy that is going to blow up and when it does will leave them with the blame. Nothing could be more damaging to LGBT than the inevitable exposure of large scale sexual abuse of children that is certain to follow these policies.

  11. I no longer have words except for, you all voted for this, presumably. Enjoy reaping what you’ve sown. The rest of us won’t, and will probably carry the burden to the end of our days. Thanks, for that – doesn’t seem to me that the law made a dang bit of difference. We could have nipped this in the bud 20+ years ago, but nobody cared, and in the areas that might make a difference, *still* don’t, the denial is absolutely epic. The New Neo posted recently about democracy being a tram (https://www.thenewneo.com/2022/11/14/an-overview-our-democracy-is-like-a-tram/ , and that s just opinion and observation, though I share it) and I would say we have indeed crossed the Rubicon. Perhaps the only cure for this madness is fire, though I could certainly be wrong, and I hope not. Nevertheless, all you Neros should perhaps get your instruments ready. Caligula wouldn’t blush at current societal trends, but even he would be aghast at the developments in governance.

    1. James, save your breadth. Those to which you refer do not know who Nero and Caligula where.

      1. @Thikitthrough

        Yeah, sigh. You’re probably right. Let’s post if for posterity, anyway.

        1. James you are correct. Posting for posterity is important so that parallel thinking with that of Nero and Caligula can be recognized today. Of Tiberius, “The walls of the imperial palace were awash with pornographic imagery, much like that still on display inside the brothel (lupanar) in Pompeii. And with pornography as his backdrop, Tiberius would command his “tight bums”—groups of young boys whose “talents” are clear from the name—to perform threesomes in front of him in order to stimulate his flagging libido.” The nature of man is the nature of man. There are many who think that mans depravity no longer exist. That is until we learn of Epstein’s island and Harvey Weinstein’s casting couch. It should not be forgotten that the leftist people in Hollywood knew exactly what was going on. They are only saddened because they want it to continue. Keep up the good fight James.

    2. James: you really ought to take a deep breath and think seriously about the inconvenient truth: you and your ilk do NOT represent the sentiments, values or beliefs of most of America. America voted overwhelmingly to preserve democracy against the threat of the MAGA election deniers who pledged to rig the vote so that your hero could somehow ascend to the highest echelon of power in our country, all for the sake of his massive ego and narcissistic mental illness, even though most Americans don’t like him, don’t and never did and never will support him, and just want him gone. And, this happened despite Republican gerrymandering. It was historic, too, because in recent years, the midterms almost always go against the party of the POTUS. We in America have suffered enough–130K of us died unnecessarily while your hero lied, downplayed and didn’t take necessary steps to help curb the spread of COVID. Schools, businesses, factories and restaurants had to mostly close down for about 2 years while he’s pushing horse de-wormer and Hydroxychloroquine cures. He started a trade war with China, the results of which we are still reeling from–shortages of consumer goods and computer chips that go into appliances and cars. Biden has gotten us back to work, the economy is drastically improving–2.6% growth last quarter. The Chips Act got passed, which will domesticate production of computer chips, and Biden got the COVID Relief Act and Inflation Control Act that will directly benefit all of us by lowering prescription drug prices and prices for consumer goods once we get manufacturing of computer chips up to speed.The infrastructure bill will fund building of roads, bridges and airports, and create thousands of good-paying jobs. We are on the right path to success now, yet you speak as if we are on the brink of disaster. That’s just not consistent with the facts.

      1. Gigi, this from Wikipedia. In May 2015, one month before launching his presidential campaign, Donald Trump expressed his desire to fix America’s aging infrastructure,[1] making it “second to none.”[2] He expressed concern about the state of American infrastructure on multiple occasions, drawing comparisons with other countries. For example, he stated that American passenger trains were slow compared to those in China and American airports to be dirty and dilapidated next to their counterparts from China, Saudi Arabia, or Qatar.[3][4] He acknowledged that modernizing American infrastructure was going to be expensive but argued that in the end, such an investment would pay for itself. In this regard, his position is in line with that of the Democratic Party. President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden had themselves been advocating for more federal infrastructure spending.[3. The Democrats blocked his efforts to improve infrastructure to keep him from getting the credit. If you recall Kamala Harris said that she would not get a Trump vaccine. The vaccine was developed by operation warp speed under Trump and both you and Kamala got the Trump vaccine. They told you what to say and you said it.

        2. As a matter of fact, despite his rhetoric, and due to his lack of interpersonal and political skills,Trump didn’t get an infrastructure package passed. Biden did. Trump, due to his narcissism, thinks he is charming and seductive, but he is, in fact, just a bully. Bullies don’t get anywhere in leadership positions that require finding common ground and respect for others. In fact, all Trump accomplished legislatively while he stunk up our White House was tax breaks for the wealthiest corporations and individuals. That drove our national debt to record levels. Biden has paid that down by several trillion, but interest payments on the Trump debt are contributing to inflation. What Trump DID do about COVID was: 1. lie about the seriousness of it, when he knew better, because he thought it made him look bad. Plus, his mental illness known as narcissism prevents him from deferring to anyone’s judgment, so he was constantly at odds with public health officials, he wouldn’t wear a mask, and kept making false promises, such as “it’s only one case coming from China”; or “15 cases will soon be 0 cases”; and “you’ll be back in church for Easter”; all lies, all he knew were lies. Because there were cameras, he insisted on dominating news conferences about COVID instead of allowing the doctors to give updates. More narcissism. :He pushed for quack cures like horse de-wormer and Hydroxychloroquine, which became short in supply for people who actually needed the drug, such as those with Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis. Hydroxychloroquine is not only ineffective in treating COVID, it produces worse outcomes. Estimates are that 130,000 Americans died unnecessarily just due to Trump and his lying and lack of leadership.

          In his book “Rage”, Bob Woodward pointed out that the first job of POTUS is to look out for the common good, to exercise good judgment and leadership, and to tell the truth. Woodward pointed to FDR and his “fireside chats” in which he gave it to Americans straight: we are at war, and lots of our men will die, but we will eventually prevail with God’s help. Trump flunked all of these tests of leadership because he is nothing but a malignant narcissist. He and his need for adulation, power and glory always come first; 2. “Operation Warp Speed” was an advertising jingle, nothing else. All Trump did was divert taxpayer money to Pfizer and Moderna to help pay the cost to develop vaccines, plus a promise to pay for doses even if they proved ineffective. That’s it. He didn’t do the non-science things that any responsible leader could and should have done, such as: locate ultra-cold freezers to store and transport the vaccine; line up PPE, which was in short supply due to his trashing of Obama’s pandemic playbook; line up people trained to administer vaccines; create a plan for vaccine distribution based on greatest need. All of this requires planning and leadership, skills which Trump has none of. He may have had people in his administration who could have done this, but that would require deferring to their judgment, something a narcissist can’t do because they’re never wrong and they know more than anybody. Biden did all of these things, which is why the worst of the pandemic is over with, we are back to work, we are back to school and the economy is thriving.

          I only tuned in for a few minutes of last night’s vainglory exercise, and couldn’t stand it. One lie after another, one grievance after another. One attack on Biden after another. No vision for the future, no plan, just vainglory arrogance. I’ve said it before: what does it take for Trump fans to realize that Trump is just a loser–he is NO leader. He is running for POTUS because he thinks it might help him avoid criminal prosecution, for the attention, power, glory, and also for revenge. America cannot move forward with a leader with these motives. How many elections does he have to lose in order to convince you?

          1. “Trump didn’t get an infrastructure package passed. ”
            I am glad he did not.
            Infrustructure is just pork.
            “Biden did.”
            Yup, Biden wasted lots of money and is looking to make inflation worse.

            “In fact, all Trump accomplished legislatively while he stunk up our White House was tax breaks for the wealthiest corporations and individuals. ”
            Nope, there are a long list of accomplishments.
            Ending endless wars,
            shifting US foreign policy from europcentric to asia centric.
            Did I mention ending endless wars ?
            reducing regulation. increasing employment, raising standard of living.
            There is a long list of Trump accomplishments.

            I can think of very few things Biden has not made worse – and the american people agree.
            The Wrong direction polling is the worst it has ever been.
            You may think you won an election, but the claims you won some mandate are absolutely stupid.

            “That drove our national debt to record levels.”
            Nope, the Debt skyrocketed under Biden.

            “Biden has paid that down by several trillion”
            It is clearly obvious you do not live in the real world.
            You are a reflection of those who voted democrat in this election,

            “but interest payments on the Trump debt are contributing to inflation.”
            Nope, every claim and assumption here is bogus.

            Inflation is driven by the Federal Reserve monetizing US debt – the Fed Bought that Debt at a low interest rate – which means US debt services is currently incredibly low. Interest in the national debt is NOT at this moment a significant problem.
            Nor would it EVER drive inflation.

            The problem with the Fed monetizing debt is that they do so by “printing money” – they do not littlerally print money. But they have increased US money supply by about 6T in 2 years. THAT is the cause of inflation.

            The CURE for inflation is a recession. That slows down the economy and therefore shrinks money supply – Money supply is the total money in the economy mulitplies by its velocity. If the amount of physical money stays the same but the economy slows down, inflation will go away.
            THEN the economy can resume growing slowly without inflation.

            No one likes this cure – but there is no other. We either will have continued inflation. or we will have a recession.

            The FED causes a recession by increasing interest rates – that slows has several effects that slow the economy down.

            NOW we hit the problem with rising debt service – all NEW borrowing will be at higher interest rates.
            But Old borroing – including all Trump and Obama borrowing and Biden borrowing prior to rising interest rates is STILL at low interest rates.
            The interest payments on that debt are quite low. Of course any interest rate apllied to tens of trillions of dollars is guargantuan.

            Regardless, in the past – Bush, Obama, Trump, early Biden when interest rates were low – the US mostly borrowed SHORT TERM.
            That means the bonds come due quickly and we must repay the face value – not just the interest rate.
            But we do not do that. We refinance the debt – at NOW much higher interest rates. Debt service for current debt will not be driven by current interest rates – but past rates. Debt service for new debt or refinanced debt will be at current interest rates.

            It will take time for debt service costs to rise – but they will. And it will take Far longer for them to come back down.

            This has little to do with Trump and Biden – except that it is primarily Biden spending that drive inflation – and all the above follows inflation.

            It is highly likely that in 5 years the Fed will bring interest rates back to past very low levels – because anything else will be very harmful to government.

            “What Trump DID do about COVID was: 1. lie about the seriousness of it, when he knew better, because he thought it made him look bad.”
            What rot. Do we really have to keep debating stupid covid claims with morons ?

            Grow Up. Everybody either lied about Covid or got it horribly wrong. Regardless it is now self evident that government had no ability to help.
            But great ability to make it worse.

            “Plus, his mental illness known as narcissism prevents him from deferring to anyone’s judgment, so he was constantly at odds with public health officials, he wouldn’t wear a mask, and kept making false promises”
            Yes Trump refused to defer to people who were clearly wrong at the time and have subsequently been proven knowingly wrong.
            Most of use consider being right when the experts are wrong to be a very good thing.

            Are you honestly still selling masks ? Really ?

            “He pushed for quack cures like horse de-wormer and Hydroxychloroquine”
            There are lots of studies from other countries that show Ivarmectin as incredibly effective.
            It is STILL true that HCQ was the most effective treatment available at the time Trump mentioned it.
            We have better things now – Ivarmectin.

            “which became short in supply for people who actually needed the drug, such as those with Lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.”
            Are you completely divorced from reality. HCQ is both cheap and plentiful. It is so plentiful we actually use it as pool cleaner.
            Its primary use is to treat or prevent malaria – not lupus and arthritis. There NEVER EVER EVER was a shortage.
            While EVery drug has some risks – Sugar has risks. HCQ ios recognized by the WHO as one of the most important and safe drugs in existance.
            You have a less than 1 in 10,000 chance of having an adverse side effect. And you have to overdose massively to die.

            “Hydroxychloroquine is not only ineffective in treating COVID, it produces worse outcomes.”
            False. HCQ is effective in both prevention and treatment. It was the best choice we had in early 2020. There are now better choices.
            Regardless, there was NEVER any actual harm from taking it.

            “Estimates are that 130,000 Americans died unnecessarily just due to Trump and his lying and lack of leadership.”
            That number is so bogus and so obviously pulled out of your ass.

            The Covid death rate per month under 11 months of Trump was the same or lower than the first 22 months of Biden.
            Trump had no vaccine, initially only HCQ as a treatment, later Remedsivir. Biden has a vaccine, much more effecitve treatments,
            And Omicron which has completely displaced all other forms of Covid is unfortunately more contageous, but much less deadly.
            There are several “public health experts” who are calling Omicron the vaccine that we never developed.

            Regardless, Biden killed as many people per month for twice as meany months with a much wider arsenal of tools,
            and a less deadly variant of the disease.

            Biden said Trump should resign because 200K people died by the time of the debate.
            750K+ have died under Biden.

            “In his book “Rage”, Bob Woodward pointed out”
            and we should all beleive Woodward because he was such a good president ?

            ” the first job of POTUS is to look out for the common good, to exercise good judgment and leadership, and to tell the truth.”
            Then why is Biden still president ?

            “Woodward pointed to FDR and his “fireside chats” in which he gave it to Americans straight: we are at war, and lots of our men will die, but we will eventually prevail with God’s help.”
            Actually FDR lied all over the place.

            ““Operation Warp Speed” was an advertising jingle, nothing else. All Trump did was divert taxpayer money to Pfizer and Moderna to help pay the cost to develop vaccines, plus a promise to pay for doses even if they proved ineffective. That’s it.”
            That is correct, but that is not it. It also paid to expedite the entire process including approvals.
            We are in the midst of a holy war right now – because it is increasingly evident that the expidited process resulted in hiding a myriad of problems with the mRNA vaccines.

            ” He didn’t do the non-science things that any responsible leader could and should have done, such as: locate ultra-cold freezers to store and transport the vaccine; line up PPE, which was in short supply due to his trashing of Obama’s pandemic playbook; line up people trained to administer vaccines; create a plan for vaccine distribution based on greatest need.”
            Actually he did all the things you claimed he did not, and the very temporary problem with PPE was BECAUSE he followed the OBAMA pandemic playbook, which used the emergency funds to stockpile a variety of vaccines – not PPE.
            Regardless the PPE shortage was – as all problems when you have a real free market brief.
            I would note that not only did Trump work to build the supply of ultra-cold freezers – but ultimately it was found that we did not need them.
            There are many many things that go wrong in a natural disaster. Alot of those mistakes are meaningless or near meaningless.
            PPE issues were near meaningless – there was only a few week shortage and ultimately PPE proved nearly useless.
            There were minor issues with freezers and ultimately they proved unnececscary.

            The vaccine was developed in record time – and ultimately proved ineffective.
            That should be self evident from the fact that death rates for 22 months AFTER the vaccine were as high as before.

            You rant constantly that Trump should have followed advice. Yet, it has been self evident to many of us from the start and nearly all now, that advice was wrong.

            Nearly everything that the “public health experts” demanded was not merely wrong – but harmful.

            Trump’s vision for the future is simple “Make America Great Again”.

            We can disagree on how to do that – though almost 80% of americans agree on nearly off of Trump’s policies to do that.
            But no one should disagree with doing so.

            One of the really disturbing things about those of you on the left.
            Is that not only are you falsely demonizing the 80% of americans who think the country is on the wrong track.

            If you think the country is on the wrong track you are BY DEFINITION MAGA.

            But those of you on the left – and the current president do not accept that the country is on the wrong track.
            You are idiotically crowing that you somehow have a mandate to continue being stupid.

            “One attack on Biden after another.”
            Who deserves every bit of criticism he gets and who 80% of the country beleive has F’d up.
            The worst numbers in the history of tracking.

            “No vision for the future, no plan,”
            Of course there is a vision and a plan.
            This is a stupid claim .
            Everyone knows what Trump’s policies are.
            Everyone knows what Biden’s policies are.
            Further 80% of the country prefer’s Trump’s.
            Shutdown the border mess. Stop the flow of illegal aliens, and drugs.
            Unleash domestic oil and gas
            Reduce regulation, and taxes and get government out of the way.

            Or as summed up by Adam Smith 250 years ago

            “Little else is requisite to carry a state to the highest degree of opulence from the lowest barbarism, but peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice; all the rest being brought about by the natural course of things. All governments which thwart this natural course, which force things into another channel, or which endeavour to arrest the progress of society at a particular point, are unnatural, and to support themselves are obliged to be oppressive and tyrannical.”

          3. So far the election post mortum is that Republicans won nearly all age cohorts and demographic groups Except:
            Under 30’s and single women.

            55M people voted Republican in a midterm. Only 50M voted democrat.

            What has changed is that Democrats used the crisis of the pandemic to damage voting nationwide,
            and mailin voting has finally accomplished democrats wet dream for the past 60 years – it has gotten those under 30 to vote.

            And anyone with a whit of sense is staring with terror at the devastation that has resulted.

            The children are now in charge of the country and they clearly have no clue what they are doing.

            Regardless, the country as a whole has made a choice – it has chosen to go forward on a path that everyone knows is wrong.

            Ultimately we will be fine.
            People learn one of two ways
            Through history
            through failure.

            in 2020 and 2022 we have twice in a row picked learning from failure.

            What we can be certain of regarding the next 2 years – is that whatever happens – democrats get the credit or the blame.

            And we can all hope that with another 2 years under their belt Gen Z will be a little less bat$hit crazy.

          4. You can like Trump or not – despite both his narcisicm and your idiocy, this is NOT about Trump.

            You are correct this election was not good for republicans – however they actually came incredibly close to the sweep that was predicted – which raises serious questions of its own. Only a few thousand votes are the difference between 53 senate seats and 240 house seats and what occured.

            This election means something – though what is not so clear as you think.

            Whether you like it or not, the GOP can not win without Trump. What this election proved was that Trump alone is NOT sufficient.
            It appears McConnell is out as GOP minority leader – and that atleast is a correct result. He bears the single greatest responsibility for failing to gain the Senate.

            I do not personally like the name RINO – I accept that people called RINO’s are “real republicans” – and in some states thy are necescary to win elections. Regardless, they are also the big losers in this election. This was clearly and easily winnable election. There is zero doubt that Trump and his supporters delivered. If as is claimed many republican candidates were poor candidates – they all came very close to winning.

            The left wing of the republican party needs to come to terms with the FACT that they do not control the party anymore.

            Republicans made slightly less gains with Minorities than expected – but the gains were still large.

            The “red wave” that was supposed to hit, is clearly not here yet – but that does not mean that the evidence does not exist that it is coming.

            It is now democrats that are increasingly the party of white elites – and big business.
            Republicans are not yet the party of minorities – but baring a miracle that is the inexorable direction the country is headed.
            It is the democrats that have the largest future demographic problem.

            Republicans face several challenges in 2024.

            To Win the GOP needs both Trump and DeSantis. Trump has about 6-9M voters that will sit the election out if Trump is not the nominee.
            There is no way that the GOP can win the presidency or pretty much anything else of consequence without those voters.
            But it is also self evident that Trump probably can not win entirely on his own.

            Democrats want a knock down fight between Trump and DeSantis. Republicans MUST avoid that.

            Republicans are going to have to figure out a way to win with corruptly administered and run elections.
            In the long run that means winning governorships and SOS positions and burning these idiotic changes to election laws to the ground.

            And they have the support of the american people on that – just apparently not strong enough to elect them to do it.

            80% of americans want votes counted on election day.
            That can not be done with early voting, mailin voting, drop off voting, absentee voting, and in person voting.
            It is physically impossible without making the election completely insecure.

            80% of americans want voter ID – mailin elections pretend to have voter ID – but they do not.

            Unfortunately there is no way 80% of americans are getting what they want without electing republicans.

            Republicans are winning the Rust belt – but the progress is much slower than expected. PA will turn red.
            OH is solid red, WI, MI, will follow. But very slowly.

            Interestingly – though much further down the road, there are some signs that OR and WA are turning read – or atleast purple.
            AZ is no longer a red state – it is a purple state.
            NV is a purple state and will almost certainly be a red state in 2024.

            God knows what will happen in the GA runnoff, but ultimately GA turns blue.

            Biden may be taking a victory lap right now, but as of yesterday he is a lame duck.
            Worse for Democrats – barring a stroke, they probably are stuck with him in 2024.

            Other takeaways. There are no Democrat superstars. Beto and Abrams were thumped.
            BTW dreams of turning TX blue should be over.
            Fetterman is a potted plant. He may be a senator but barring a miracle his political career is over.

            There are no democrat rising starts. There are no democrat super stars.

            The democratic party is either geriatric and brain dead, or progressive wing nuts who can not win outside of deep blue cities.

          5. How many elections do Republicans need to lose – however many it takes for people to come to their senses – which they eventually will.

            One of the other lesson of this election is there is no ability to come to terms with todays democrats.

      3. Living here in the Midwest, I can tell you that both Democrats and Republicans can still hold a civilized argument. Our teachers do not discuss racism and gender identity as that is left for the parents. Our kids our taught the core classes and we do not have parent groups because our teachers are parents as well. Both sides of the political party think that Biden and his administration is a complete failure. Im not saying that everyone agrees with Trump or would vote for him but if there is another promising GOP (DeSantis) then Biden will not stand a chance. Please keep all your bs ideologies in those big blue cities because we dont want your type here, and the 2nd Amendment is law around here as well.

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Res ipsa loquitur – The thing itself speaks

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