Below is my column on the release of the videotapes in the Nichols case and what they suggest about the prosecution of the five officers accused of murder. This is the longer version of the column that ran in the New York Post.
Here is the column:
The release of the videotapes from the lethal arrest of Tyre Nichols, 29, shows a shocking lack of professional tactics and procedures. This looks like adrenaline-filled rage . . . from the officers. At certain points, it is the suspect who sounds to be trying to deescalate the situation.
It is unfortunately not unique. In physical encounters, officers can escalate violence and lose control with lethal consequences.
The footage helps establish a number of legal points. The force is clearly and undeniably excessive. It was a complete breakdown of training and supervision.
It is hard to look at this tape objectively and analytically given the emotional impact of the scene. Yet, the footage helps establish a number of legal points.
There is both a state and federal investigation ongoing and the tapes will help and hurt aspects of those cases.
Murder
There is ample basis for taking a second-degree murder case to trial. However, the tape also shows where the defense is likely to go in the coming weeks.
The officers are not just facing second-degree murder charges but a whole slew of charges from aggravated assault, aggravated kidnapping to official oppression. The aggravated assault and official oppression charges are amply supported by the videotape. The defense will likely focus on controlling the damage rather than leave the case unscathed.
The defense is likely to attack the second degree murder charge because there was a rapid escalation and a defendant fled. One officer is shown saying that Nichols tried to grab his gun. While the beatings on the tape could well justify most people fleeing in fear, second degree murder is “a knowing killing of another.” It does not require premeditation. The officers appear out of control but the counsel will argue that they did not knowingly or intentionally try to kill Nichols. Indeed, his death may have been caused in part by the delay in medical aid.
The aggravated kidnapping could also face challenge. Usually an invalid stop or arrest is not treated as kidnapping, particularly after a suspect allegedly flees.
Finally, the “one-size-fits-all” charges for five officers could prove problematic. The officers are not using the same level of force. The worst acts include an officer positioning himself to get a clear shot to kick Nichols in the face as two officers struggle with him on the ground.
Most horrific cases tend to look monolithic at the outset. However, more granular details emerge over time that can differentiate the conduct of individual officers. The detail on these tapes shows different conduct and levels of force that a jury will have to balance.
Civil Rights Violation
The tapes would initially appear to show a death caused by excessive force caused by a lack of training and control rather than racial animus. However, this case was quickly framed in racial terms. That is not unique with our hair-triggered commentary and coverage.
This month, when a man killed 10 people and injured 10 others in Southern California, politicians and pundits rushed forward to declare the attack as a hate crime. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer denounced the “bigotry and hate” of the crime.
Politicians did not wait to learn that it was committed by an Asian American with a history of mental illness who claimed to be “the president of Tokyo.”
Similar comments followed the death of Nichols before it was revealed that all of the officers are also African-American.
That is why the move of the Justice Department to open a civil rights investigation is surprising. While denouncing this killing, Police chief Cerelyn “CJ” Davis told the public that the race of the officers “takes off the table that issues and problems in law enforcement [are] about race.”
There was a general rule that such civil rights investigations would follow state investigations and charges. That rule was discarded by the Obama Administration in cases like the killing of Trayvon Martin. After the fanfare of the investigation, the Administration quietly shut it down and did not bring any charges.
This is another case where the opening of the civil rights investigation may be premature. This is not a case of local authorities who are showing a lack of effort or an animus toward the deceased. Memphis quickly fired all five officers and indicted them in a remarkably short time. They publicly denounced the officers’ actions and sought second-degree murder convictions.
Since a federal prosecution would follow the state prosecution, it is not clear why the Biden Administration launched the investigation. Having a set of federal investigators pursuing witnesses and analyzing evidence can present challenges for local police in making the case against these officers.
One element that remains unknown is the view on the validity of the traffic stop. Officers are shown on videotape saying that Nichols almost hit their car and was driving dangerously. Race-based incidents often involve pre-textual or invalid reasons for a stop. The prosecutors expressly declined to say that the initial traffic stop for reckless driving was pre-textual.
In the end, the mere fact that the officers are black does not negate the possibility of a civil rights violation. However, the videotapes suggest a more common explanation of officers who are poorly trained and out of control in a physical altercation.
What is most clear is that the officers all deserved to be fired and that justice is being done. That point may be lost on protesters, but the police, prosecutors, and defense counsel are seeking real justice in the case of Tyre Nichols.
Here is the Park doctrine.
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/restraining-park-doctrine-prosecutions-against-corporate-officials-under-the-fdca
The Park Doctrine (also known as the Responsible Corporate Officer Doctrine) has long occupied an obscure corner of American criminal law. It allows corporate officers to be charged with a crime for wrongdoing that occurred “on their watch,” without any showing of personal fault or even knowledge on their part—other than a showing that they were “in charge” at the time the wrongdoing occurred. Such no-fault crimes are rare in American jurisprudence, but the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld such convictions under narrow circumstances.
The Chief of the Memphis Police Department is the responsible corporate officer in relation to the death of Tyre Nichols. Under the Park doctrine, the police chief would be subject to prosecution.
The Floyd tapes, nationwide insurrections, and their impact on prosecution with plausible cause.
One missing element here is that this is obviously police misconduct due to the egregious actions of the 5 cops and even the two sheriffs that arrived during the event. The missing element I am referring to is that due to the left’s attacks on the police the professionalism of the forces have suffered.
Now, and I believe this is important, we had the city of Atlanta trying to build a new police TRAINING CENTER that would assist in making the force more professional, and the LEFTIST GOONS have been fighting to keep the center from being built.
How can a group of fascist little morons be allowed to stop a city from building a facility for even one day. The fascists need to be gathered up, arrested and if found guilty jailed for trespassing and also resisting if they put up a fight.
It is time to actually arrest the left, not just the right of J6. ARREST THE LEFT, JAIL THE LEFT, END THE TYRANNY OF THE LEFTIST PROTESTORS.
If a person is caught with a sign outside a Planned Parenthood site they are arrested and jailed immediately, but a leftist can close down a highway for hours and they get a pat on the head.
We cannot go on living in Doublestandardstan, we need equal protection and the end to disparate treatment due to political ideology. Even the judge that sentenced one of the LAWYERS that threw the incendiary device at a cop car said that the perp was a good kid. Was that sobriquet uttered to even one person charged due to J6?
HullBobby,
Great points!
hullbobby, in his endless posting, vomits publicly and thinks we all need to watch.
ATS is having another meltdown.
Van Jones couldn’t wait for the body to grow cold before he blamed the death on white supremacy. He knows a good pay day for a race baiter when he sees it. Who gives him the money? Why, CNN of course. A pyromaniac couldn’t do a better job of fanning the flames.
I watched all the tapes, some several times. Didn’t want to but I did. I think Professor Turley’s concerns are spot on. My verdict:
(1) For aggravated assault, I would vote guilty but only for some officers.
(2) For 2nd degree murder, I would vote not guilty.
To suggest Tyree was noncompliant is a major understatement. I won’t be surprised if the toxicology report is an eye-popper.
Just a note: if I were a police officer and believed a suspect was an imminent threat to the community and in control of a 4,000-pound vehicle, I would go to the limits of the law to remove him from the driver seat, and I know it would not be pretty.
Just my opinion, but Dem policies and views of our police have absolutely gutted the profession (which already had plenty of issues) in record time – *nobody* wants to do the job anymore, just as in other industries modern libs have lit things on fire, therefore, out of necessity, the best and brightest are probably not the ones taking positions on the force. This is visible in every industry at this point. And naturally a great many simply don’t want to work, as well.
I understand ‘whiteness’. True, it is not about color (though if convenient, suddenly it is) is a side effect of privilege, (not an ideology though, rather more of a side effect of generational privilege that largely is only present in white, privileged, generational ‘progressives’. I don’t expect wokesters with an IQ of 90 to grasp the nuance, nor the irony that their precious woke IS an intentional ideology, not a realization), but that isn’t what we’re seeing.
No, ‘whiteness’ is what makes a Fauci put his daughter in a position of authority at Twitter, or what threatens to make you eat bugs while the privileged dine on Kobe beef aboard their chartered planes that are so populace and prioritized now they make your ‘regular’ flight late. Was the same aristocratic mentality behind slaves, segregation, ebonics, debtor’s prison, indentured servitude, common core, inflation reduction act, davos et. al.
The real issue here is still not being addressed IMO, and very little will change until it is. There is indeed a deficiency, but it has nothing to do with race or equity, that’s the coward’s way out, or perhaps just the not particularly bright or evolved’s way.
As with any case, lets us see if the prosecution can prove their case, as I think they will unless they get someone really incompetent.
And lets see how the defense presents their case.
Does not matter what we may think, it is what the jury thinks and decides.
I don’t know about you, but the hurling of epithets by police officers at an arrestee points to a profound lack of professionalism. The frequent “beeps” in the audio track are not blocking out what Nichols was saying, but what the police officers are barking out like mad dogs.
Why isn’t it simply a major disciplinary offense for any police officer to use such crude language in any citizen encounter? To let this pass as acceptable lowers inhibitions of all kinds, and reinforces the aggressive impulses the cop is feeling.
It shows a shocking departure from being in control of one’s behavior, and is a distinct escalatory rung on the ladder. Why is nobody identifying abusive language from a police officer as a problem?
Both the Tyre Nichols and the Paul Pelosi videos have the cops yelling, “Give me your effing hands”.
I’ve read a number of your comments about free speech over the years. You’re not a fan. Not surprising you pipe in on a murder case to try to persuade people for the necessity to control speech you don’t like.
In this case, given the extenuating circumstances nobody believes speech codes would have either been observed by the officers or prevented Nichol’s death.
That’s because it has been reported that the police claim Nichols almost caused a vehicular accident with one of the police cars. That’s why they came out hot from the get-go. Were their lives in danger? I don’t know. Then he showed an unwillingness to completely submit. That stoked their emotions higher. As someone else noted, they did not know if he was armed or not.
There were lots of variables that caused them to lose control. Their use of bad words did not cause them to beat him to death.
In professional situations, I control my speech. JT does. So do you.
I doubt your position is that “free speech” unburdens everyone from standards of professionalism. It’s hard to imagine a world even working where professional patterns of speech are tossed aside. Why do you imagine our moms taught us manners?
Rights have to be balanced with responsibilities. This fact of life escapes free speech absolutists. People in authority (cops) have to be held to high standards.
You are almost correct.
Free speech absolutists have no problem with the possibility that your speech choice could harm (or benefit) you privately.
The free market is a place where people make choices – for whatever reasons they wish.
If Disney wishes to make woke LGBTQ+ movies for kids – their choice. If parents choose not to let their kids see those movies – their choice.
The fights come where the ability of adults to make their own choices is infringed on by governments.
If a private school wishes to have drag queen story hour for 3yr olds – parents can decide if they want to send their kids there.
When a public school or teacher does that – there is no choice.
When my boss (Or I as the boss) says no politics in the office, or only left wing politics, or only that of the right – I am free to work elsewhere, or start my own business.
I almost never discuss politics of controversial issues in a business context without knowing what my boss, client, … wants to hear.
And still that is rare.
But here on the internet under a psuedonym I am entitled to say what I please – and Government is NOT free to censor it.
Not because of politics, not because I might be wrong, not for any reason short of inciting immediate violence.
Crude language is par for the course. I got blasted on facebook when I commented on the leaked Kirby Smart locker room video before the national championship. It was a profanity laced tirade to “pump up” the team. My comment was I could not see Lou Holtz or even Vince Dooley engaging in such talk in front of their players. Different day and time.
Without watching the video (I have no desire to watch such despicable actions) I was surprised to read yesterday that some progh/left fanatic is already blaming this entire episode on Trump. I had remarked to my friend just early Saturday that I wondered when it would become Trump’s fault and sure enough, hours later, there was the post blaming Trump. I guess we might as well put Trump in the dock too.
As a police officer assigned to the projects and ghetto areas of Tampa we were involved in altercations and confrontations almost nightly.
What’s notable about Nicholes as well as the Floyd case in Minneapolis is how long there was a confrontation with a potential felony suspect without a supervisor on scene. In Tampa, a Sgt., Lieutenant or even Captain would have been on scene within a minute or 2 of the initial stop.
In Floyd’s case, there was no supervisor on scene for at least 19 minutes. It’s hard to tell the time line in the Nichols encounter but clearly no senior officers, seasoned in de-escalating or supervising the situation was there in sufficient time to avoid a tragedy.
Just waiting to see if Black Liers Matter will take a position on this situation. OH I forgot . The only “Black Lives” they care about are the ones taken by whites or ones that can be exploited for financial gain.
JT says “Indeed, his death may have been caused in part by the delay in medical aid.”
I’m sorry, you’re sick. They beat him to a pulp and you say well if only EMS had arrived he would be ok. BS. If I were a juror and you made that claim, I’d squirm in my seat and when it came time to convict I would remember well how you tried to push blame off on someone else and I would nail them guilty on everything.
“I’m sorry, you’re sick.”
You’re dropping the context of that quote. It speaks *only* to the issue of whether the officers “knowingly or intentionally [tried] to kill Nichols.” And JT very clearly wrote: “caused *in part*.” (Emphasis added)
“you tried to push blame off on someone else”
Now you’re grossly misrepresenting his statement. Nowhere does JT blame EMS (or anyone else) for that “delay.”
“I would nail them guilty on everything.”
So you’d punish a defendant for the alleged crimes of a juror?! If there’s anything “sick” here, it’s that.
“Indeed, his death may have been caused in part by the delay in medical aid.” Perhaps you read something else. I read that hhis death was caused in part by the delay. To me that is blame shifting and it is sick. He would’t have needed EMS care if that hadn’t beat the sh** out of him.
That paragraph is introduced by: “The defense is likely to . . .”
Try reading in context, and under the cool light of reason.
Defense lawyers often times try to shift the blame, it is after all their job. JT is pointing that the delay in treatment may have contributed to the death.
The overlooked question to be answered is why was there a delay in the arrival of the EMT. There may be a reasonable answer, such as there was either no available EMT.
The next question is the apparent delay in the arrival of a supervisor.
These are issues that both prosecutors and the defense will have to explore.
WilliamDowney5,
A no non-sense, common sense, objective analysis.
Thank you.
It’s a tragedy to be sure and the tapes are helpful but not conclusive. Let’s quit focusing on every police misstep because it gives aid and comfort to our enemies-the Leftist race baiters. It’s black on black crime caused in part by lax hiring standards after the Defund the Police hustle. Chill and let Lady Justice do her job. Oh and have we had enough of so-called Affirmative Action yet?
mespo—-Exactly! I was about to ask if anyone is raising a glass to Affirmative Action in law enforcement about now?
You’ve got a black female police chief overseeing 5 black policemen who beat-up a young black man, but somehow this is a white supremacy thing?
Btw, there are over 660,000 fulltime policemen in this country—-these are but 5 of them.
Ashli Babbitt, an unarmed white woman and veteran, was shot and killed by a black Capitol Hill police officer. The officer’s conduct was determined to be lawful, even though she was unarmed and non-threatening.
The black communtity seems to want a justice system that benefits only one race. We’ve done that before. And how did that work out for everybody?
Add this to the list:
“POSOBIEC: Officer Lila Morris, Badge Number 5869, Beat a Protestor To Death on Steps of US Capitol on Jan 6”
(note: Officer Morris, is black female)
“There is a Capitol police officer that is swinging a large wooden stick and crashing it down on Roseanne Boyland again and again. Even after Roseanne Boyland has fallen to the ground and is writhing on the steps of the US Capitol. The officer continues to beat her, again, and again. People are yelling for the officer to stop, but she doesn’t. She continues beating Roseanne Boyland.
An exposé by the Gateway Pundit has revealed the name of the officer: Lila Morris, badge number 5869.”
https://humanevents.com/2023/01/27/posobiec-officer-lila-morris-badge-number-5869-beat-a-protestor-to-death-on-steps-of-us-capitol-on-jan-6
Hello Mespo, Been a long time. I believe in this case it’s Blue on Black crime and that Affirmative Action has done nothing to change the culture. Black officers get weeded ouit as soon as the Academy if they can’t demonstrate their ability to but Blue above any feelings of unity with their community. If the driver had been clearly wealthy, Black or white, he never would have been treated that way because of the fear of likely recriminations from their actions. Officers, including a white officer who tased Nichols several times before he ran and was quoted on one of the videos saying, “I hope they stomp his ass,” didn’t see a young Black man in the same manner as they would have seen someone else. This is the systemic part of the racism that several people rushed to deny like Hannity, Lee Elder, Jonathan Turley, Tucker, et.al. because they’ll never accept the premise it exists. Once acknowledged, what good person would say we should do nothing about it? Policing has always been about class, with race one of the mechanism’s to implement it.
Sherlock Black and the case of the racist that didn’t bark. This must be a sequel.
: )
😉
Diogenes,
That was not only witty, but funny as well.
Thanks, Upstate. Enigmainblackcom is my muse 🙂
When the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.
According to race demographics of police officers in the US the races break down very close tot he ethnic break down of the country as a whole.
“If the driver had been clearly wealthy, Black or white, he never would have been treated that way because of the fear of likely recriminations from their actions”
That is probably true, it is also true that police officers are pretty much never killed by wealthy people – black or white.
If the driver had been Sen. Warren – I would expect that the police would not have treated her the same way.
The world should not be that way – but it is, and it is unlikely to change.
Regardless, that is not racism.
Is ir racism when they keep stopping Sen. Tim Scott while driving in DC or making him show his ID in the Halls of the Senate?
I do not know, you would have to ask those who are stopping him.
I do not pesume that people are racist without evidence.
I know white people who have been stopped by police officiers as frequently as Scott.
Is that racism ?
But finally – lets assume that it is. Both my kids are asian and they both experience occasional racism.
What is it we do about that ?
Shoot all racists ? More than half those whose actions are racist towards my kids are black.
I am white and have kinky hair. As a kid I was constantly called the N word.
Is that racist ? Should the kids who did that all be killed ?
I drive alot. Until I was 50 if I got pulled over – and that happened way too much and usually without justification,
I was cited. But since some of my hair went grey the police almost never cite me and encounters are far more pleasant.
I wish I had died my hair a bit grey a decade or so earlier.
Regardless is that racism ?
Tim Scott worked on a “bipartisan” bill to address policing. It would have ended Qualified immunity.
Democrats killed it.
We have the answer in an english nursey rhyme
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But words shall never hurt me.
You do not fix racism or any of our other predjudices by passing laws.
You fix them by modeling good conduct yourself.
That is right – lots of people do not see this as evidence of systemic racism – because it is not.
Of course policing is about class. Far more crimes are committed by the lower classes – regardless of race.
I expect the police to focus their efforts where the crime actually is.
If you have the misfortune to be born into a lower class, get out of that class as fast as possible.
Stay in school,
Get a job – any job you can
Do not comitt crimes.
Do not engage in sex until you are capable of being responsible.
Do not have children before you want them and are married.
Do not get married until you are capable of supporting a family.
Follow these guides and you will with near 100% certainy climb two quintiles in class very rapidly – regardless of race and ragardless of birth class.
Framing everything in terms of race is racist.
“Framing everything in terms of race is racist.”
I don’t frame everything in terms of race, plenty of times I just don’t know and willingly say so. Now saying nothing, ever, is about race. That ens up defending racism. Neville Chamberlain woiuld be proud.
“I don’t frame everything in terms of race”
Pretty much you do.
“plenty of times I just don’t know and willingly say so.”
Not very often and even then you ultimately blame race.
“Now saying nothing, ever, is about race.”
No one has said that.
But as I have said before REPEATEDLY
We live in the least racism momen in history.
in the least racist country in the world.
Are things perfect ? No.
But what you need to do in life to succeed is the same whether you are black or white.
And your odds of succeeding are the nearest they have ever been to equal.
And finally of all the problems that face us today – Race is not even close tot he top of the list.
“That ens up defending racism. Neville Chamberlain woiuld be proud.”
I have no clue what you think you are saying. But the modern Neville Chamberlains are those telling us that if we just give the woke left a few more inches we will have peace.
“Pretty much you do [frame everything in terms of race].”
No, actually, he doesn’t.
“We live … in the least racist country in the world.”
Absent a valid measure for racism that applies to all countries, you have no way of determining which is the least racist. Just what measure are you using?
““Pretty much you do [frame everything in terms of race].”
No, actually, he doesn’t.
—
Actually he does, ATS, and you do a lot of that yourself.
Do you wish to argue over whether the earth will continue to rotate too ?
Must every trivial little detail be proven to you ?
EB’s posts are nearly all about race. He is obsessed with race and he sees racism everywhere.
He posts about race even where there is no evidence at all of racism.
That is how we get the idiocy that we have now where left wing nuts are claiming that racism and white supremecy drove 5 black police to kill a young black man.
The government in Memphis is democrat and has been for a long long time. The police cheif is a black woman.
Yet this is racism ?
As to empiracle evidence of the decline of Racism – When was the last time the police used firehoses against peaceful black protestors ?
When was the last lynching ? 9,000 member of the KKK met at a farm near me for a cross burning in my northern town in the 60’s.
There are not 9,000 KKK members in the country today. Nazi’s actually marched down the streets of my town. Not today.
I can go on and on – I can cite the number of minorities in my HS and other HS’s in my county 60 years ago and today.
I can address the people I meet in the grocery store – today and 50 years ago, or in the shopping mall.
There are myriads of metrics that demonstrate the FACT that I asserted.
A FACT so OBVIOUS that only a complete MORON would challenge it.
Have you actually been alive for more than 5 minutes ? Do you have complete ignorance of history ?
So let me confront you with another FACT.
Pick almost any time period you wish – The US specifically and the angle sphere more generaly has ALWAYS been the least racist in the world.
Until very recently much of the world allowed very little immigration, and what little there was was highly unlikely to diverge from the race, religion or culture of the country.
The US Treated Chinese immigrants abysmally throughout our history – but we did allow some of them to come.
How many asians are there in eastern Europe, Africa, the Mid East ?
How many blacks in Japan, China, Eastern Europe, the mid East ?
Almost half of all african slaves were brought to the mideast – not the US. Yet there are very few blacks in the mideast. Why ?
Because the black slaves taken to the mideast were all male enuch’s.
The left is crowing that the US will soon be a minority Majority country – yet you are too stupid to grasp what that means.
We have fought over immigration in this country for over 250 years – but more so than any other country in the world – we have allowed mass immigration of people different from those already here.
How many countries outside the anglosphere can you find where minorities come close to making up half the population ?
In much of the world you can not live in a country, you can not own property in the country, you can not get a job in the country if you were not born in that country as part of the dominant race and culture.
Hi enigma:
Fact is people are noticing the lax hiring rampant in police forces after the BLM Defund The Cops hustle. Here’s an article about the dilemma in Memphis where this happened:
“In 2021 and 2022, recruitment was struggling so badly that the department offered $15,000 signing bonuses and lowered the education and fitness requirements.”
Since black communities are where most of the crimes occur and the criminals reside it would scare me as a resident that the police force has declined so dramatically. This is why self-proclaimed black leaders are the biggest threat to black people. In their zeal to fight mythical systemic racism they are willing to sacrifice every black resident. Oh and did I mention the Race Hustle is lucrative for a very few.
thepostmillennial.com/memphis-pd-dramatically-lowered-standards-before-hiring-officers-charged-in-tyre-nichols-death
They also give signing bonuses to nurses. The difference is that the culture of nurses. The so-called BLM Defund the Cops” hustle was never about eliminating police but reallocating resources. Not calling out itchy-fingered policemen to solve mental health issues. There are cops who quit the force when they found they couldn’t abuse and kill others with impugnity and they should be gone.
There are Black leaders who are out for their own interests (on both sides) and some are part of the systemic racism that does exist in policing. The culture make it not matter if the officer, police chief, or mayor is Black. The police unions have as much power as any of them, they may lose an occasional battle but aren’t losing any wars. Police unions have found a way to defend almost every police killing in history but this time they remained silent. I’d like to believe it’s because the evidence is so clear but that never stopped them before. I don’t know if that selectivity is racism but there’s enough there to wonder.
There are lots of situations where racism isn’t clear and you just don’t know, I can say that. There are those that can’t abide the suggestion of systemic racism no matter the evidence because admitting it exists isn’t acceptable.
enigma:
“There are lots of situations where racism isn’t clear and you just don’t know, I can say that. There are those that can’t abide the suggestion of systemic racism no matter the evidence because admitting it exists isn’t acceptable.”
**********************
It’s certainly not acceptable but not in the sense you conveyed. Coming from an immigrant Italian background on both sides with plenty of experience in it, I can say. The biggest lynching in American history wasn’t blacks; it was Italian-American victims in New Orleans.
I’ll make you the same offer I make anyone. Find me a provable case of systemic discrimination and I’ll meet you at the federal courthouse to enjoin it this week.
“The biggest lynching in American history wasn’t blacks; it was Italian-American victims in New Orleans.”
I think you’re far from right but I’ll give you the chance to prove me wrong. I saw a case where 11 Italians were lynched in New Orleans. I’m willing to believe that the number was undercounted because police and the media ften do that. Let me know what figure you’re working with and I’ll be happy to attempt to show you greater numbers of both Black people and Native Americans.
enigma:
LaToya Cantrell, New Orleans’ AA mayor, read the statement:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/01/new-orleans-to-apologise-for-worst-mass-lynching-in-americas-history
Thanks for your reply. There are dozens of incidents where more Black or red people were murdered by white mobs, some in the hundreds. After the Nat Turner Revolt, 18 people were hung along with Turner who it took several weeks to capture. We can consider that legal retribution for the people they killed. It was thought between 70-80 people participated in the rebellion, yet hundreds of slaves across multiple states having nothing to do with the insurrection were lynched. (Please note the definition of lynching includes more than hanging).
In Ocoee, Fl after two Black men tried to vote, a white mob went to one of the men’s homes and while defending themselves, two white men were shot and killed. The Klan was called in from nearby Orlando and Winter Garden and the Black population of Ocoee was eithe killed or burned out, The city had no Black residents for over 40 years. The death count of Black people is listed as between 30-80 though some believe it could be as high as three-hundred. The Orlando newspaper noted only “Two Whites Killed” in what they described as a race riot but was nothing of the sort.
https://www.ucf.edu/pegasus/the-truth-laid-bare/
In the Greenwood District of Tulsa, an area known as Black Wall Street, after an alleged assault of a white woman in an elevator. The teen involved was arrested and a mob gathered to lynch him. A group of Black men went to the jail to try to protect him, a larger white mob mob chased them away and later proceeded to destroy most of the community, including an estimated 1,226 homes, some churches, and several busineses. The National Guard dropped bombs by air on the community. There were officially 36 Black deaths though the number is in the hundreds. Mass graves are being dug up as we speak, though some dispute the mass graves of Black people are related to the massacre.
The Oklahoma Bureau of Vital Statistics officially recorded 36 dead. A 2001 state commission examination of events was able to confirm 36 dead, 26 Black and 10 white. However, historians estimate the death toll may have been as high as 300.”
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/02/1133461415/tulsa-race-massacre-unmarked-graves-discovered
After the German Coast Uprising, slaves had their heads cut off and placed on pikes.
To be fair, the massacres on Native Americans, not during the course of battle, far exceed the number of Black people. I’m limited to two links so I’m stopping here. You may argue the type of lynching of Italians was so specific that none of these are the same. Tell it to the families.
enigma:
Somebody oughta tell the mayor of New Orleans, then. Since we’re talking Indians you left our the 500 white men, women and children massacred by the Sioux in Minnesota. There’s no POC monopoly on victimhood or virtue for that matter. And hoping for it won’t make it so.
https://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/archives/the-indian-massacres-terrible-scenes-of-death-and-misery-in.html
Nat Truner, 1831. this time almost 200 years into the past
Enigma never ceases to look backward. That is proof that today what he wants to claim isn’t very relevant.
Who is killing whom today?
mespo (the person I was talking to) gave me an example from 1891 of Italian lynchings and I provided examples from 1831, 1920, and 1921. What is your problem?
Enigma, the twenties is still a look backward. What I am seeing looking in the present, blacks are attacking the Jewish families that marched in favor equality under the law and colorblindness. What is wrong with that picture?
What I am seeing is the action of 5 police officers in Memphis leading to the death of a black man. What I am seeing in Chicago and Detroit are young black children being killed by their black neighbors. What is wrong with this picture?
This is why you should stay out of grown folks conversation. You don’t concern yourself with what they were talking about, just what you want to talk about. Take your troll talents elsewhere.
You look backward and complain about something that happened almost 200 years ago.
I look at the present and am tired of hearing your whining. I say:
Enigma, the twenties is still a look backward. What I am seeing looking in the present, blacks are attacking the Jewish families that marched in favor equality under the law and colorblindness. What is wrong with that picture?
What I am seeing is the action of 5 police officers in Memphis leading to the death of a black man. What I am seeing in Chicago and Detroit are young black children being killed by their black neighbors. What is wrong with this picture?
I didn’t mention that those policemen are black, but I am mentioning it now.
Have you no answer to the question? You are good at talking when you are complaining about things that no longer exist or are markedly diminished. I decided to complain as well and ask why I should worry about things that occurred 200 years ago that I didn’t do and protested against, while you don’t care about anyone else.
You don’t want solutions. You only want to complain.
EB can not get the past correct either.
“This is why you should stay out of grown folks conversation. You don’t concern yourself with what they were talking about, just what you want to talk about. Take your troll talents elsewhere.”
What arrogant piffle.
Each of us is free to concern ourselves with whatever we wish.
My problem with your concerns is not that you are not entitled to have whatever concerns you wish.
But that you are misrepresenting actual history.
” The so-called BLM Defund the Cops” hustle was never about eliminating police but reallocating resources. Not calling out itchy-fingered policemen to solve mental health issues.”
It is not “So Called” – YOU called it that.
And it has been an absolute disaster.
I can not think of anything that set back police reform further than the BLM/Defund Police movement.
There are lots of police reforms I would like to see. Starting with getting rid of QI, gettin rid of most SWAT teams, reducing no knock warrants by a factor of about 100.
There are also reforms of our laws – such as drug and prositution laws that we badly need that are not police specific.
There is lots of criminal justice reform I would like to see. Juveniles should not be tried as adults. With incredibly rare excptions offenders under 25 should never see sentences longer than 20 years. Life sentences should be reserved for violent offenders over 35 who are on 3rd offenses.
The death penalty should be rare to non-existant.
I would like to see meaningful bail reform – as well as alternatives to incarceration – for those instances that warrant it – and that is ALOT of instances. Non-violent defendants should ALWAYS get house arrest until trial. Many non-violent convicts should get house arrest – so long as they do not reoffend. But the left just toosing people on the street, and not even arresting people for property crimes has made things worse not better.
None of this stands much chance of happening in the next decade – because of left wing nut nonsense
Next – no social worker is going to volunteer to go to a domestic violence call. Whether you like it or not, the police are almost never dispatched where a social worker will do. That is nonsense.
SOMETIMES – such as domestic violence – the Police are PART of the solution not all of it – but increasingly we are doing that.
I would further note that most of the “solutions” we have that do not involve policing, have at best only worked small scale under optimal condictions and with the very best social workers and at great expense. We do not today have a cheap solution to policing that works.
I am very open to doing better. But that does not mean I have rose colored glasses and think problems that have been intractible for centuries are going to be solved over night by directing resources from police to elsewhere.
I am not interested in slogans, and ideological nonsense. I am not interested in left wing nut claims with little substance behind them.
Are there alterantives to what we have in policing today that work better – certainly. Are there lots of them that are cheap and easy and we know will work ? Absolutely not.
I would further note that policing itself has improved dramatically over my lifetime – and particularly over the past 20 years.
Until the Furgesson riots violence in the US was in the midst of a 40 year downward trend. There were less shootings of police and less police shootings of others – including minorities.
Those trends have more recently reversed. And the most likely cause of those reversals is the destruction of policing by the left.
All of us would like to see the police killing fewer young black men.
But 80% of this country would happily return to the situation in 2018 rather than today.
How many hundreds of young black children have to die as a result of lax policing ?
If you are a black single mother of a 6yr old black boy. Would you rather have aggressive racist white cops and a 50:50 chance your son is arrested in a few years as a drug dealer ? Or a 50:50 chance he is shot in a driveby with warm and fuzzy policing ?
YOU do not seem to grasp there are worse things than Racist cops – and YOU have brought those worse things into being.
“There are cops who quit the force when they found they couldn’t abuse and kill others with impugnity and they should be gone.”
Do you know how few police killings there are in a year ? More people are killed by the increase in violent crime in Chicago since 2020 that are killed every year by the entire police in a year.
Regardless police quit the force because they do not want to end up in jail for doing their job.
They quit because like everyone else in every other job – nobody wants a shitty job where no one respects you.
“There are Black leaders who are out for their own interests (on both sides)”
Everyone is out there for their own interests. That is how the world works.
“and some are part of the systemic racism that does exist in policing.”
There is no systemic racism in policing. There is some evidence of small amounts of individual racism in small numbers of police.
There is some evidence fo some systemic racism in our justice system – in the courts and in sentencing. That is not policing.
“The culture make it not matter if the officer, police chief, or mayor is Black.”
What nonsense. The FACT that generally police are going to protect their own is not racism. It is true of just about every institution.
It is both a good and a bad thing concurrently. But it has nothing to do with racism.
“The police unions have as much power as any of them, they may lose an occasional battle but aren’t losing any wars. Police unions have found a way to defend almost every police killing in history but this time they remained silent.”
Absolutely and you are not going to fix any of that by ranting about systemic racism and defunding the police.
If anything you have made the problem WORSE.
You have made meaningful reform nearly impossible.
You have made it highly likely that we may see a return of Racism in policing.
That we may see things get worse.
If you are poor, black, single mother of a young black boy – and you have two choices – more racist police with the odds your son goes to jail for selling drugs, or less where they odds are he dies in gang violence – which do you choose ?
You are pushing towards that being the choice.
“There are those that can’t abide the suggestion of systemic racism no matter the evidence because admitting it exists isn’t acceptable.”
Because admitting to things that do not exist does not solve any problems.
The left has had their way with policing – not just recently but for decades int he cities of this country.
How has that worked out ?
This is not the 50’s in Montgomery Alabama.
Most major cities in this country have been run by democrats – usually minority democrats for 50+ years.
You claim there is systemic racism in policing – while that is baloney – lets assume you are correct.
Bull Conner did not rise from the Grave and take over Chicago or LA, or SF, or NY or Atlanta, or Philadelphia.
Whatever is wrong with major city policing happened on YOUR watch.
You the left.
As well as You minorities.
If your leaders are corrupt – why is that other peoples problems ?
At the same time as I am attacked for “white splaining” the world to you – you are dmanding that I change the policing and culture of YOUR cities ?
If you are equal why do you need my help ? These are YOUR cities, YOUR problem.
The policing in my community is my problem. Fix your own house. Leave me alone.
And quit blaming everyone else for your own problems – or you will get racism.
“The so-called BLM Defund the Cops” hustle was never about eliminating police but reallocating resources.”
This mistake is what one makes when one embarrasses themselves. Instead of admitting an error of judgment, they doubled down.
“Defund the Cops” was heard by everyone. Right then and there, they could have said Defund the Police was wrong and called for a reallocation of resources. They didn’t. They revealed their ignorance and lack of ability.
That said, in high-crime areas reallocating resources is not a good idea since it pulls police off the streets. The best way to end up reallocating police resources is by permitting the police to make safe streets. That can save money used to reallocate resources, and it can also help cities generate more money.
I would suggest thinking of something else the left rarely considers.
We have to make the world work with the people we have – not ones that do not exist.
This country needs about 1M law enforcment personal. If we were through various means able to get 1M really really great people to be police officiers – we would have to take them from other fields where they are needed too.
You wish to substitute Social Workers for Police. The education and training of a social worker is greater than a police office.
Where are you going to get additional social workers ? And how are you going to assure that the new social workers going into quasi police roles are high quality people. You mentioned giving bonuses to nurses – if you amplify the number of really good people going into nursing – those good people are no longer in the feilds they used to be in.
It is a rule that 20% of the people in any domain produce 80% of the value. That rule is recursive.
We need that 20% to be spread approximately evenly throughout otherwise we end up with excellent policing, and poor healthcare or visa versa.
You have to make the world work with the people you have. Not mythical people that do not exist.
“. . . the systemic part of the racism . . .”
You’ve given the defense another argument:
Don’t blame my client. The system did it.
Soldiers that commit war crimes still get convicted.
“Soldiers that commit . . .”
Which is not a reply to my comment, so let me try to make it clearer.
Your premise is determinsim (the “system”), Determinsim guts the concept of personal responsibility. Thus, on your own premise, those police officers cannot be held responsible.
If you don’t like the consequences of your own premise, then pick another premise.
The system is corrupt, the individuals are not absolved of personal responsibility
18 USC 242 does not require there to be any racial element for a deprivation of civil rights under colour of law to occur. Judging from the police conduct here, there may be a significant problem in the Scorpion Unit, which has now been disbanded. Something appears to have gone severely wrong.
The Democrats never….NEVER…miss an opportunity to take advantage of any situation that can be used to further the advancement of their agenda.
Five Black Cops on the Street, Black Chief of Police, very serious level of crime in the Black Community, a Black Suspect resisting arrest and fighting the arresting Officers who are all members of a special unit stood up to combat Street Crime.
Yet…the Democrats….politicians, media, and Race Baiters and of course the politicized USDOJ ALL fan the flames of division under the color of Race and Civil Rights violations all the while ignoring everything that led up to and happened during the event at hand.
Yes the Beating looked bad and was an ugly thing to watch…..but the simple clear fact remains…..during Police encounters…COMPLY.
If the Cops mistreat you….don’t fight them on the street….take them to Court and sue…..take money off them and their employers….and live to enjoy spending that money.
The one thing the Left does not countenance is the truth being told….unless it is their version of the truth.
Memphis has a serious crime problem primarily in the Black Community….perpetrated upon fellow Blacks by Blacks….that is real issue….not these five Police Officers alone…..it also involves people like the suspect in this tragedy.
“during Police encounters…COMPLY.”
Have you seen the vide of the police stop of a black man that pulled into a gas station? When the cop says license an registration, the man pats his pants and says it’s in the car, he crawls into the car and gets shot.
Comply and sometimes you get shot.
With a bit of serindipity. I happened upon this data point on the internet.
The United States Department of Homeland Security made a quiet and alarming announcement on August 13, 2021, creating the official position of the United States Government under the Joe Biden regime. [SEE DHS STATEMENT HERE] According to the statement, if you questioned the orthodoxy of government mandates, or COVID-19 responses from the U.S. government, you were -effective immediately- considered a “terrorist”, specifically a “Domestic Violent Extremist” (DVE)
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2023/01/28/twitter-file-release-15-hamilton-68-group-labels-counter-opinions-russians-corporate-media-amplified-but-twitter-could-not-find-evidence/#more-242699
There are hundreds of examples of the government, claiming under the color of law, the Government MUST violate the peoples constitutional rights in order to save them….from themselves. This kind of enforced paternalism, has infected our government, at all levels. Biden needs his classified documents, to even question why, ignores his superior insight.
This Scorpion unit operates in total secrecy, outside constitutional boundaries, in order to save us. Following the Constitution will cost lives.
It is the basis for the govt stripping people of the constitutional rights. Like protesting at the Capitol over corrupt elections. Those voices not only had to be shut down, and silenced, but offenders (determined without benefit of due process) need to be made an example of, by enhance prosecution, and sentencing.
The reason skate parks were filled with sand, even though Sunlight and exercise are great therapeutics against covid. And almost all skateboarders are imune from the virus anyway.
Its the reason 80 FBI agents were busying censoring citizens on social media. Along with the IC, State Dept. White House, and various congressional people.
Iowan2,
I wonder what the total $$$ our old Govt/Foreign/NGOs are paying, through all the ABC agencies the Anti-American Scumbag to spread lies, disinformation & propaganda?
**************
Propaganda and Censorship Dominate the Information War:Tom Curley, let it slip that the U.S. Pentagon has more than 27,000 PR specialists that spin up stories, and an annual propaganda budget of nearly $5 billion
https://www.theburningplatform.com/2023/01/27/propaganda-and-censorship-dominate-the-information-war/
“police, prosecutors and defense counsel are seeking real justice.” Unlike the killing of Ashli Babbitt.
Ashli Babbitt was crawling through a window into the house chamber while a mob was chanting hang mike pence. I hate mike pence, I detest trump, I even more detest insurrectionists that want to kill our elected officials. She deserved the death sentence as do at least 500 others that were part of that insurrection.
So killing an unarmed woman is justified? Got it….
An unarmed woman that was part of mob, some of whom were armed with guns and other deadly items. And the mob was yelling death for Pelosi and pence. Yep, justified.
Bob, if anyone is sick here, it is clearly you.
Bob – I don’t believe anyone of the demonstrators had a gun.
Edwardmahl,
The FBI ruled there were no firearms present inside the Capitol.
They didn’t.
Correct, they did not “rule” they testified.
No protestor fired a shot. No protestor brandished a weapon. No firewarm was found inside the capitol.
Only a tiny number that were never used in anyway were found in hotel rooms and locked in cars.
So thousands of people came to DC for an insurection and they all “forgot” their guns ?
What were they counting on Trump doing a loves and fishes trick and multiplying the handful far away into limitless numbers ?
The FBI also didn’t testify “there were no firearms present inside the Capitol” on J6. Which is why you can’t quote the so-called testimony.
Multiple people have been charged with illegally carrying firearms inside the Capitol Complex on J6 and some have already been convicted for it.
They did TESTIFY to exactly that, and the testimoney was Cited by others here – recently and many many times over the past 2 years.
It is available even on video.
No one has been charged with having a firearmn INSIDE the capitol – one idiot here – possibly you claimed otherwise citing the Refitt case – Refitt NEVER entered the capitol. Nor did he draw, brandish or in anyway use a firearm – he merely Posessed one outside the capitol.
Adn the HUGE POINT that YOU completely grasp is that:
You are a million miles away from an insurection.
An insurection would be thousands of Trump supporters with AR-15’s converging on Washington on J6.
It would be semi-autmatic rifles aimed at the capitol police an told they would be shot if they did not back down.
Lexington and Concord were american insurections – Hundreds of armed colonists confronted hundreds of british redcoats.
Shots were fired and patriots/insurrectionists and redcoats DIED – about 70 on each side.
This is an actual insurection. It is the “shot heard round the world”. It is not just an insurection that gave birth to this country, but to representative government throughout the world.
That is what an actual insurection looks like – and it is not inherently a BAD thing.
On J6 we did not have anything close to that.
You have ZERO instances in which a protestor USED a firearm (or a knife).
You have ZERO instances in which a Firearm was brought into the Capitol.
You have ZERO instances in which a Firearm was drawn or brandished.
You do not have an insurrection.
You do not have “sedition”
Even our founders were not the idiots those of you on the left were.
Thousands participated int eh Whiskey rebellion.
An actual ARMED insurection in which people were killed and the military was brought in.
VERY FEW were charged with anything and those were pardoned or had sentences commuted.
We did not have this total complete idiocy the left and DOJ are engaged in that EVERYONE knows is political theater to assure that
people on the right over 30 never get upity enough to protest again.
Because the left is right about one thing – when people over 30 start protesting – governments are in trouble,
But for the vote of people under 30, Republicans would control nearly every governorship, state legislature, congress and the presidency.
Right now our country is being run by clueless children – who do not know what an actual insureection is.
And better hope they do not cause one.
Because they sure are working on it.
“They did TESTIFY to exactly that”
Nope. I quoted the actual question and response in my 12:49 PM comment, and it was NOT that “there were no firearms present inside the Capitol” on J6.
Once again, you make a false claim, and you cannot admit it when corrected, even when the actual evidence is already on the page.
You know, you can look up which of the rioters were charged with firearms violations. Here’s a site that documents all cases: https://theprosecutionproject.org/january-6th-capital-protests/ Just search on “firearm”
Again, the FBI ruled there were no firearms present inside the Capitol.
“the Capitol” — unless that phrase is limited in some way — refers to the entire Capitol complex, which is everything in green on this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Complex#/media/File:CapitolComplexMap.jpg
edward’s claim that I was responding to — “I don’t believe anyone of the demonstrators had a gun” — is about all of the people protesting at the Capitol on J6.
The document I referred to includes everyone who committed crimes inside the Capitol Complex, which includes multiple people with firearms.
If you quote whatever FBI statement you’re referring to, we can read it in context and see whether you’re remembering it accurately and whether it reflects current knowledge.
” the Capitol” — unless that phrase is limited in some way — refers to the entire Capitol complex, which is everything in green on this map:”
ATS, you like to make up your own definitions. This definition means that any of the thousands of people coming from the Union Metro Station that touch the Capitol Grounds while heading to a destination away from the Capitol Building were part of the protestors. That is quite fanciful and terribly inaccurate.
The discussion involves entering the Capitol Building or a close surrounding area, not places more than a half-mile away. You first invented this new definition of where the protest occurred when you INSISTED the protestors had guns INSIDE the Capitol building, or at least you IMPLIED it.
When you were proven wrong, deceit reared its ugly head, and you stated you were talking about the Capitol Complex. You are unable to stop your poor behavior.
“This definition means that any of the thousands of people coming from the Union Metro Station that touch the Capitol Grounds while heading to a destination away from the Capitol Building were part of the protestors.”
No, it means that if they crossed onto the grounds, then they were in the Capitol Complex. Not everyone who enters the Capitol Complex is a protester. Many aren’t. Only people who are actually protesting are protesters. Simply walking across the Capitol Complex doesn’t magically turn someone into a protester.
“The discussion involves entering the Capitol Building or a close surrounding area”
MY original comment was posted in response to edward’s false claim that “I don’t believe anyone of the demonstrators had a gun.” There were multiple people inside the Capitol Complex with firearms, some of whom have already been convicted of firearms offenses.
“you INSISTED the protestors had guns INSIDE the Capitol building, or at least you IMPLIED it.”
I’m certainly not doing that here. WTH are you referring to?
“Not everyone who enters the Capitol Complex is a protester. Many aren’t.”
That was the point of my comment. A person can be arrested while carrying a gun without being a protestor. A person can be arrested for carrying a gun without protesting even though he was involved with many in the group. An involved person not actively protesting can be arrested and a gun found in his car far away from the Capitol Building. Your statement involving arrests on the Capitol Complex was meaningless and subterfuge.
“There were multiple people inside the Capitol Complex with firearms, some of whom have already been convicted of firearms offenses.”
Name them and tell us how the gun was involved in the protests. Without that information, your statement is meaningless subterfuge.
—
“you INSISTED the protestors had guns INSIDE the Capitol building, or at least you IMPLIED it.”
I’m certainly not doing that here. WTH are you referring to?
—
I made myself clear. This argument started a long time ago when you changed your argument from the Capitol Building to the Capitol Complex rather than admit you were wrong. You make too many statements that are empty of solid facts, so you can pretend your opinions are facts. What are you trying to prove?
Your own map labels the big white building in the center “The Capitol”
The debate is over – you lost – your Own evidence betrayed you.
As is typical you are still kicking and screaming like a toddler trying to argue “it depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is”
The map that ATS linked has “The Capitol” as the label for the BUILDING.
Hoist by his own petard.
The point of confrontation was in or immediately outside of the Capitol Building. Anyone who looks at the map can see that ATS is playing with a marked deck.
Not this nonsense.
You do not get to play definitional games to try to alter the meaning of what others say.
Everyone of us who has refered to firearms in the capitol – means THE BUILDING.
The use of “in” makes that clear.
But even without it.
people say – “the capitol” and point at the domed white building in DC.
Only left wing nuts trying to play word games pretend they are refering to a complex.
If we meant the complex we could have said “The capitol complex”.
IN YOUR map “the Capitol” is a label for a BUILDING
And your “the capitol” copmplex argument itself refutes the very claims and charges.
There is no probable cause for DOJ or FBI to be investigating anyone who did not enter the capitol building itself.
While it MAY be a crime to have firearms in your car at the capitol complex,
absent probable cause law enforcement has no basis for searching your car.
In arguably those At the capitol or capital complex as opposed to in the capitol – aside from the few trying to break down doors.
Were there for a legal and permitted protest.
With very very very few exceptions anyone investigated who did not enter the capitol itself – was unconstitutionally investigated.
Here’s my guess about the FBI statement you’re referring to:
Sen. Ron Johnson: “How many firearms were confiscated in the Capitol or on Capitol grounds during that day
Jill Sanborn, the FBI’s Assistant Director for Counterterrorism, testifying before the Senate Homeland Security Committee: “To my knowledge, we have not recovered any on that day …” [emphasis added]
This exchange took place on March 3, 2021, when the investigations were still early; at that point, they’d charged less than 1/4 of the people charged in total. It’s very clearly a question about firearms recovered “on that day” — Jan. 6 — and it very explicitly includes firearms carried on the grounds, not just inside the Capitol Building.
It’s no surprise that firearms weren’t confiscated on Jan. 6 inside the Capitol Complex; few people were arrested on Jan. 6 itself because LEOs were overwhelmed.
If you have some other FBI statement in mind, just tell us what that statement is.
This is not the only testimony.
And you know damn well if there was video of anyone inside the capitol with a firearm that it would have been all over the place.
Do we have to keep playing these stupid spin games ?
Soon the entire 14,000 hours of video will be made public.
You and your friends can crowdsource looking for evidence of bad deeds.
And others will look to see how badly the event has been misrepresented.
And we can all see where the chips fall.
What is TRUE is that From the start the Left has been trying – like they always do, to control the narative – release ONLY what they want seen.
While many of the rest of us have sought to get EVERYTHING out in the open where all of us can judge it as it is.
Did anyone point a gun ? Did anyone fire a gun ?
I would note there are 2900 members of the CP – that was actually far more than enough to handle J6.
There were 10,000 members of the DC guard available had Pelosi wanted them.
If LEO’s were overwhelmed – that was FAILURE on their part.
In the video of the Alishi Babbit shooting there are 4 LEO’s with automatic weapons and Officier Byrd with a semi automatic pistol.
How is it they were Overwhelmed ?
Do you have evidence of any physical confrontation by protestors with the CP outside of the West Tunnel where officers violated the rules of engaged ment and fired rubber bullets and bean bags at protestors FIRST ?
Yes, a small number for firearms in cars or hotel rooms – arguably legal.
There have been a very small number of people who had firearms on their person identified.
NONE have been arrested. None went itno the capitol. It is currently presumed all were federal agents.
No protestor used a firearm or any other actual weapon.
No one who entered the capitol posessed a firearm.
No one has been arrested for having a firearm on the capitol grounds.
Thousands of protestors – an alleged insurrection – and the only guns in sight are likely FBI agents.
The only guns used – capitol police.
In Atlanta the police waited until protestors Shot one of them before killing protestors and then only the one who shot a police officer.
Ashley Babbit did not shot a police officer, she did not shoot anyone. she did not have a gun. She did not have a weapon. She did not threaten anyone. Yet she was shot in the head.
Not only were some arrested, some (like Guy Reffitt) have already been convicted.
And Babbitt was shot in her left shoulder, not her head.
As is often the case, you are sloppy on details. Which is one of the reasons I do not trust your judgment.
Babbit was shot in the neck and bled out rapidly. People do not die in seconds from a shot in the shoulder.
The neck is more part of the head than the capitol complex is refered to as just “the capitol”
Guy Reffitt did not enter the capitol, his conviction was for posession of a firearm in a restricted area, not use, not brandishing.
“As is often the case, you are sloppy on details. Which is one of the reasons I do not trust your judgment.”
I could not have described your posts better.
The precise location of Byrd’s injury is not relevant – that it was near instantly fatal is.
That she was not a threat of death or serious bodily hard to Byrd or anyone else is.
That Reffit was not “in” the capitol is relevant.
That is did not use his gun is relevant.
That he did not brandish hsi gun is relevant.
YOU are the one “sloppy with details”.
Who commited the more serious crime ?
Someone who crawls through a broken window in the capitol, or someone who takes an axe to a senators door,
or someone who has a holstered firearm out on the mall ?
Babbit is dead, Reffit is in jail for 7+ years, the Kavanaugh protestor with the Axe had the axe returned.
People are not blind to the politicization of justice in this country.
No, the medical examiner — who knows better than you do — identified Babbitt’s cause of death as a “gunshot wound to the left anterior shoulder” (https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/JW-v-DC-Babbitt-July-2021-records-001710-pgs-667-668.pdf). Not her head. Not her neck. Her shoulder.
That you cannot even admit your mistake when it’s pointed out to you is unsurprising.
That you want ot argue over this is far more disturbing.
Medical examiners alos listed Rose Boylands cause of death as an overdose of her medication – not being beaten to the ground and stomped on.
Not especially inclined to value much of what comes from DC Government.
People do not die in seconds from shoulder wounds.
Not that this is an omportant point – except aparently to YOU.
Alishi Babbit was murdered. That is self evident from the facts.
The federal law requirements for a justified killing by a police officer are not even close to met.
The moment that you lie about that – there is no reason to trust you on anything else.
you can game the Boyland an Alishi autopsies. But you can not change the fact that they are dead at the hands of police officers whose actions were not lawful.
Video was just released of the CP removing a protestor who was a Doctor from the scene who was trying to save Babbit.
If as you claim Babbit was shot in the sholder not the neck – she would not have bled out rapidly.
Maybe she didn’t. Maybe like George Floyd the police denied her medical treatment until she died.
Eitehr way she was murdered.
John, based on the actions of some of the Capitol Police I believe they were taught an expanded version of CRT so they would look at protestors as if they were pigs and animals. That is consistent with the ways the left handled people they didn’t like in the 20th century.
I kept this article for ATS but since you already brought it up, I will provide the link.
https://redstate.com/mike_miller/2023/01/28/doctor-who-tried-to-save-ashli-babbitt-slapped-with-felonies-other-charges-for-participation-in-capitol-riot-n695449
Doctor Who Tried to Save Ashli Babbitt Slapped With Felonies, Other Charges for Participation in Capitol Riot
ATS claims Babbit was hit in the anterior shoulder.
If there was a doctor – or even a paramedic or EMT present that should not have been Fatal.
There are some gunshot wounds that either destroy critical organs – like the heart or brain where recovery is just not possible.
There are a few others where the damages is such that bleeding can not be controlled.
In all other cases – and anterior shoulder injuries are one of those the difference between life and death is stopping the bleeding quickly.
That is not a high skill task. Any EMT or Paramedic and certainly any doctor can do so.
Any police officer should be able to do so.
Many with the slightest first aide training should be able to do so.
Even severing the femoral artery is survivable – with rapid skilled care.
John, that police officer who pulled the doctor away from Babbitt may have been a cause for her death. I haven’t seen where the bullet went once it entered the body or if it migrated to another spot.
The medical examiner call Babbitt’s death murder. Where are that ATSs? They don’t care about black deaths, white deaths or any other deaths. They care how they can use deaths, racism, poverty to push their cause and nothing else.
Actually she called is homocide.
Homocide is the killing of one person by another.
Murder is the deliberate unjustified killing of one person by another.
A coroner can not decide whether a homocide is a murder.
The Coroner said that Byrd killed Babbit – something we all knew.
Or more precisely that Babbit was killed by a person who shot her.
The Prosecutors failed to apply the law regarding Justification of a homocide by a law enforcement officer.
No one was in immediate threat of life or seriosu bodily harm from Babbit.
Therefore the killing was a murder.
Federal criminal law is clear here.
John, you are right on all counts. The medical examiner called it homicide, but Ashli was murdered.
I am reluctantly to broadly criticise the Capitol police. In most of the video I have seen – both the CP and the protestors were well behaved.
With few exceptions the major failures on J6 were not with the CP, but with those responsible for planning how to allow a legitimate protest while keeping it peaceful.
The plannign was piss poor – and the requirement to get that right rests with those with political power.
I do not beleive the CP were understaffed – I beleive there are about 2500 CP, that should have been sufficient to manage this protest.
But if you think I am wrong – the National Guard was available and turned down.
The initial “plan” appears to have been to treat the Capitol as a Fortress. That failed extremely quickly.
At that point the CP PROPERLY engaged in non-confrontational delaying tactics as congress was cleared in response to protests that the CP had failed to initially manage properly and which it has lost much of its ability to control, so delay was the only option.
From what I have seen they performed that task WELL. I would guess that they had even trained in that before – not specific to J6.
There was practically a pitched battle at the West Tunnel. Much of the information I have strongly indicates that was the result of an OVERLY agressive response by the CP in that area. At the same time as the CP elsewhere was falling back slowly and ceding the Capitol SLOWLY to non-violent protestors. The West Tunnel was an out of control riot.
It is entirely possible my information is incorrect – and the protestors started the violence there – regardless that should be investigated and those actually responsible should be punished.
If protestors started the violence – they should be arrested and seriously punished – as should those who did the same in portland, or Kenosha or Atlanta. However if the police initiated the violence – then officers houdl be disciplined, fired, even prosecuted.
We do not know for certain at the West Tunnel whether we have Kent State or Portland.
We should find out.
The Democrats J6 committee was a failure – because it was a purely political witch hunt.
Because instead of seeking the truth, they sought to get Trump and his supporters.
If that is where the truth leads – so be it.
Most of the J6 convictions I am aware of so far – based on what I know of the evidence are complete BS.
But I am prepared to convict and severly punish those who really and truly were engaged in violence or actually inciting biolence.
And the same in Atlanta and Portland and ….
We also know that portestors were only able to enter the capitol – because the CP let them in.
The Capitol Doors can not be opened from the outside.
Outside of the few people who actually broke windows and climbed in – no one should be charged with tresspassing.
And frankly I am sorry – but Covid is not an excuse to stifle free speech. political protests- or to rig our elections.
” am reluctantly to broadly criticise the Capitol police”
I believe the left tried to influence the Capitol Police to act aggressively and with disdain for the protestors. Since the terrible things done by the Capitol Police were isolated that tells us most are decent people.
When faced with uncertainty more rather than less discourages violence.
Nancy Pelosi should be jailed and sued for her activities involving J6. Ashli Babbitt was murdered and I think of her as a contributing part to that murder.
“I believe the left tried to influence the Capitol Police to act aggressively and with disdain for the protestors. Since the terrible things done by the Capitol Police were isolated that tells us most are decent people.”
That I agree with. At this point that is not proven though – maybe the new house J6 investigations will expose that.
In the meantime we KNOW that most CP actually acted propoperly – as did most protestors.
The problems were confined to a very small number of CP and a very small number of protestors.
And in some instances – such as the West Tunnels it is not clear who instigated the violence.
Though there is some evidence it was the CP.
“Nancy Pelosi should be jailed and sued for her activities involving J6.”
She can not be sued – she has Qualified immunity.
>>”And in some instances – such as the West Tunnels it is not clear who instigated the violence.
>Though there is some evidence it was the CP.
What I have read is the CP started moving forward in a tight space with people entering and moving in the opposite direction not knowing what was happening up front.
>>“Nancy Pelosi should be jailed and sued for her activities involving J6.”
>She can not be sued – she has Qualified immunity.
In that case get rid of QI. 🙂
I would make a case she was acting criminal outside of the scope of her job. It would fail, but if she were replaced by Trump the left would be screaming, guilty.
An allegation – which I beleive there is video support for is that the CP was given rules of engagedment that prohibited the use of deadly force. That includes guns, But it also includes rubber bullets, bean bag guns, some uses of tasers, and the use of knight sticks to the head or certain parts of the body – Rose Boyland was struck with lethal force and that violated the rules of engagement.
Purportedly the West Tunnel CP fired rubber bullets or bean bags at the protestors – violating the rules of engagement and ending up with protestors fleeing and rushing the tunnels concurrently, and the CP completely losing control.
Again we need ALL the video.
Regardless, I am perfectly willing to jail anyone – CP or protestors who initiated violence – proportionate to their acts.
Ofc.Byrd murdered Babbit.
It is fairly clear that a black female CP officer murdered Boyland.
Some of those charged and convicted of violent acts – should hve been – though all the charges were excessive and the sentences were ludicrous.
Grabbing the arm of a police officer when he grabs for YOU first in a situation where there is no violence is not something that shoudl result in a 7 year sentence. Just as molotov cocktailing a police car should not result in an 18 month sentence.
One of the other emerging stories is a Hunter Biden Memo to Burisma executive Prior to being hired by Burisma – that was sent While Joe Biden was VP.
Many people have noted that it is well written and very knowledgeable. That it accurately summarizes US foreign policiy and US analysis and projections regarding Russia and Ukraine. That it is highly implausible that Hunter Biden guessed all this on his own, or that he gleaned it from public sources.
This was essentially his effort to solicity Burisma as a client and prove he was worth paying exhorbitant sums.
More importantly the letter looks like it almost certainly required access to classified information.
If Hunter Biden had access to classified information while Joe Biden was VP and Hunter shared that information with Burisma – that is a HUGE problem for Joe Biden.
Attention is also now shifting to Biden’s Senate Documents stored at UDel. Finding more classified information there would be a huge problem.
Finally there is a report that DOJ ? politely requested a “friendly” search of Obama’s residences for Classified doc’s and were told to “Pound Sand”
“That you want ot argue over this is far more disturbing.”
I think it’s important to demonstrate that you are sloppy with details and refuse to correct your mistake. Your opinion about its importance is clearly different.
BTW, why do you consistently misspell Ashli’s name as “Alishi”? Doesn’t she deserve to have her name spelled correctly?
“Not especially inclined to value much of what comes from DC Government.”
People’s opinions about that clearly differ.
“People do not die in seconds from shoulder wounds.”
She didn’t die in seconds. She died at the hospital. (This is a fact, not an opinion. We should be able to agree on facts.) To be clear, though: there’s more than one artery in the shoulder, and people can bleed as much from the shoulder, depending on where they’re hit, as from the neck, depending on where they’re hit.
“Alishi Babbit was murdered.”
People’s opinions clearly differ about that.
“you can not change the fact that they are dead at the hands of police officers whose actions were not lawful.”
But it’s not a fact that the police actions weren’t lawful. It’s your opinion. Once again: you regularly confuse facts and opinions. I find *that* “disturbing.”
ATS has lost this round. He is searching the garbage to find things. Here is why.
” you consistently misspell Ashli’s name as “Alishi”? ”
Instead of the present discussion, ATS assumes the role of a pedant. He is now correcting John’s typos.
” people can bleed as much from the shoulder,”
From pedant to a doctor, but that isn’t the discussion either. The news media, like the Washington Post, reported Ashli was shot in the neck, so John’s statement was consistent with the reporting. Does it matter? Of course not, but being wrong about the essence of the story, ATS is left searching.
>People’s opinions clearly differ about that.
ATS finally gets to the meat of the issue, but he wants to close his eyes. Was this a legitimate shoot? In what police department would this be considered proper, and attended only by those who were intent on manipulating the story? The one-sided interview wasn’t initially disclosed, and when finished, Byrd was removed from all other questioning and sequestered on Andrews Air Force base for months.
“But it’s not a fact that the police actions weren’t lawful.”
That is a matter of morality. You need to have a certification that the murder was immoral. You are unable to see morality when it is in your face.
“I think it’s important to demonstrate that you are sloppy with details and refuse to correct your mistake.
Your opinion about its importance is clearly different.”
Obviously not. You rant about spelling – all details are not important. Some are.
I have repeatedly stated that I have zero interest in spelling or Grammar.
And that I am not going to appologize, change my behavior of correct.
I do not accept that you have proven your case regarding Babbit – the DC coroner has made numerous errors – including specifically regarding J6 – they are not a credible source. It is extremely rare for a shoulder wound to cause death within a few minutes.
Of course it is also possible that the CP just watched as Babbit slowly bled out.
Take your pick. It does not end well.
But lets assume in some hypothetical world you could proove that Babbit was shot in the shoulder and not the neck – what would it change ?
She is dead. She is dead because Officer Byrd violated the federal law on the justified use of deadly force.
The only other person killed that day was Rose Boyland – also a protestor. According to the Coroner from an overdose of medicine that she had never had problems with before – NOT being beaten repeatedly in the head and torso by another CP officer violating the law on the use of deadly force.
So the two most serious harms that occured on J6 were WHITEWASHED by the Left.
We are here trying to decided the obvious culpability of 5 black police officers in the death of Nichols.
But the murder of two white women by two black police officers – that you have no interest in.
That you need to fixate on “correcting” irrelevant details – as if that changes anything.
The entire country went up in flames, we had riots, we made a martyr of a Down and out black man that passed counterfeit 20’s and got caught, overdosed on fentanyl, was so uncontrolable that he could not be left in a police SUV,
because some diminutive white police officer put his knee on his back.
That is important to you – but actually beating a woman in the head or shooting another – that is OK with you ?
The most heinous thing that happened on J6 was the murders of those two women.
Not anything else you rant about.
So go ahead – fixate on details.
You are as small and meaningless as the details you fixate on.
John writes to ATS, “You are as small and meaningless as the details you fixate on.”
John, when ATS starts correcting his spelling, uses pretend friends, or sees to it his comments are deleted, we know he has failed in his mission. It is his way of admitting defeat. We have seen these actions repeatedly.
The posts are all publicly available.
Everyone can judge them on their own.
I am not concerned about how I will be judged by anyone whose judgement I care about.
ATS has those concerns.
Apparently the release of the document had to be obtained by a FOIA request. HOMICIDE!!!
“https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/JW-v-DC-Babbitt-July-2021-records-001710-pgs-667-668.pdf”
Obtained via FOIA by Judicial Watch, Inc.
Ashli Babbitt, 35 years old:
• Cause of Death—Gunshot wound to the left anterior shoulder • Manner of Death —Homicide
Cheryle E. Adams
Special Assistant to the Chief Medical Examiner
Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
“BTW, why do you consistently misspell Ashli’s name as “Alishi”?”
Why do you care.
” Doesn’t she deserve to have her name spelled correctly?”
She deserved not to be murdered – you do not give a $hit about that
““Not especially inclined to value much of what comes from DC Government.”
People’s opinions about that clearly differ.”
Not relevant.
All opinions are not equal everything is not an opinion.
“She didn’t die in seconds. She died at the hospital. (This is a fact, not an opinion. We should be able to agree on facts.) ”
Nothing that you say will ever be acceptable on its face as a fact.
You do not seem to be able to grasp that very simple thing.
You post as anonymous, you have zero credibility.
There are other posters who have a reputation for accuracy – even some I do not agree with who few of us would question.
But no anonymous poster is among those.
““Alishi Babbit was murdered.”
People’s opinions clearly differ about that.”
Your medical examiners report called it a homicide.
Regardless, that is a FACT, not an opinion.
There is Zero debate over the majority of relevant FACTS.
Babbit was not armed.
The only person in the speakers lobby at the time she came through the Window was Byrd.
This is all on multple video’s.
Byrd was not in danger of death or serious bodily harm.
People who were not even in the room she was entering were not in danger of death or serious bodily injury.
The Federal law for a justified use of deadly force by law enforcement REQUIRES an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself of another.
That is OBVIOUSLY not the case.
FACT, Not opinion.
““you can not change the fact that they are dead at the hands of police officers whose actions were not lawful.”
But it’s not a fact that the police actions weren’t lawful. It’s your opinion. Once again: you regularly confuse facts and opinions. I find *that* “disturbing.””
It is YOU that is confusing facts with opinions here. REGULARLY.
You seem to think that just asserting something – without evidence makes it true, or atleast makes it a matter of opinion.
It is you opinion that the shooting was lawful, it is the opinion of those in the CP that reviewed it.
But it is actually FACT that it was not. The legal requiremnts for a lawful use of deadly force were not present.
§ 1047.7 Use of deadly force.
(a) Deadly force means that force which a reasonable person would consider likely to cause death or serious bodily harm. Its use may be justified only under conditions of extreme necessity, when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed. A protective force officer is authorized to use deadly force only when one or more of the following circumstances exists:
(1) Self-Defense. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to protect a protective force officer who reasonably believes himself or herself to be in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.
(2) Serious offenses against persons. When deadly force reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the commission of a serious offense against a person(s) in circumstances presenting an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm (e.g. sabotage of an occupied facility by explosives).
Bob, so in your world view the two ATTORMEYS that were caught hurling Molotov cocktails into a police car could have been and should have been shot by the police? Your argument is that when the rioters burned the church across the street from the White House the SS should have shot them?
Bob is an idiot, probably an ANTIFA goon, a fascist and a moron all wrapped up in one neat little package. Bob says that babbitt being shot was a good thing, a proper thing and a righteous thing.
We are all, well most of us are, for free speech, but isn’t Bob actually supporting violence. Bob should be shut out, banned, mocked, shunned and laughed at. Bob needs to be off of a site like this. Bob, go on MSNBC with the other mouth breathing morons.
Under the rules of engagement, lethal force was authorized.
Prof Turley does pretty good with the 1st Amd/Free speech. At the least it allows for some issues to be pointed out & debated a bit.
********
While I’m here, here’s another one of the 4 Trump supporters killed on J6 I’d like the Govt & their ABC agencies to address as to their direct involvement related to Rosanne Boyland death & some of protestors trying to save her being sentenced to prison by the DC Kangaroo Courts And why hasn’t all 14,000 hours of Video & other Brady Material been released to the public yet?
***********
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/08/new-video-rosanne-boyland-killed-cops-police-prevent-rescue-push-protesters-steps-beat-rosanne-sticks-protesters-attempt-cpr/
So you would be fine with the killing of an unarmed black BLM protester because SHE is part of a violent MOB??
It wasn’t an insurrection, toddler Bob. I know you’re at that impressionable age, but don’t believe everything the home office at Woke Nation is telling you. The facts: no one was armed (except the Capitol police) no one was violent, and no one was charged with sedition. They were charged with trespassing.
“The facts: no one was armed (except the Capitol police) no one was violent, and no one was charged with sedition. They were charged with trespassing.”
Besides the fact many people were armed and Trump wanted the Magnetometers removed so they could get it. People with both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys have not only been charged with sedition but convicted. I’d provide links but you wouldn’t believe them, maybe one of your friends here will tell you. Friends don’t let friends remain ignorant.
“Besides the fact many people were armed”
Nope.
“and Trump wanted the Magnetometers removed so they could get it.”
Source
“People with both the Oathkeepers and Proud Boys have not only been charged with sedition but convicted.”
Innocent people are convicted all the time.
No one anywhere has ever shown any evidence of sedition.
NONE.
Whether you like it or not seeking to thwart a lawfull and clearly trustworthy election certification is not sedition or several democrats in congress plus hillary would be in jail now.
Protesting govenrment is MULTIPLY protected by the first amendment.
And as we are told ONCE AGAIN by the press after events in Atlanta – violence is just another form of protest.
Doing the same when the election itself was fraught with lawlessness, is all the more protected.
” I’d provide links but you wouldn’t believe them”
I have no problems beleiving many people have been convicted of crimes they did not committ.
The two most criminal acts on J6 were the murder of Alishi Babbit and Roseane Boyland.
Both were unarmed. Neither was threatening death or serious bodily harm to another.
Both were white women murdered by Black CP officers with ACTUAL Weapons.
Boyland was meaten to death with a batton, and Babbit Shot in the head at close range.
”
“and Trump wanted the Magnetometers removed so they could get it.”
Source”
Sworn televised testimony by Cassidy Hiuthinson. Tell me who under oath said it didn’t happen?
Do you know how hard it’s been to convict anyone of sedition? Yet members of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys have been convicted. You just say they’re innocent.
Unlike Cindy, perhaps you will at least acknowledge they were charged which she denies.
As for Ashli Babbitt, had she gotten through the window, do you imagine nobody was going to follow her? I personally think many more people should have been shot while committing felomnies on that day, but that’s just me.
“I personally think many more people should have been shot while committing felomnies on that day, but that’s just me.”
You and five Memphis Police officers. However, they might have been caught in the chase scene where epinephrine is pumping through the body. You, on the other hand, are relaxed and probably sitting on a chair or couch in your home. Wow! Is this type of attitude common in your family?
“Sworn televised testimony by Cassidy Hiuthinson. Tell me who under oath said it didn’t happen?”
Produce it. And the cross examination of the witness – oh and the entire testimony and the negotiations associated with the testimony.
Sorry – anything from the J6 commission is USELESS.
“Do you know how hard it’s been to convict anyone of sedition?”
In DC ? Trivial.
“Yet members of the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys have been convicted. You just say they’re innocent.”
Until you produce actual evidence – yes. I am aware of the public evidence, I have not heard of anything more compelling produced at trial.
It was a public trial – you should be able to produce EVIDENCE.
“Unlike Cindy, perhaps you will at least acknowledge they were charged which she denies.”
I am not “acknoledging” anything just because you say it.
Your track record for accuracy is piss poor.
That said it is my understanding that a few people were charged and convicted of sedition.
I have yet to hear any evidence – nothing even within 1000 miles of sedition.
“As for Ashli Babbitt, had she gotten through the window, do you imagine nobody was going to follow her?”
So ? Of course they were.
The standard for federal justified use of deadly force is the imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.
Not somebody might follow through a broken window.
This did not occur in a home – where in some states the castle doctine might have applied.
There is no DC stand your ground law – and it would not apply anyway Babbit was not am immediate serious threat to Byrd or anyone else.
We have antifa rioting because the police killed an antifa member who shot a police officer.
No one would be defending Babbit had she shot Byrd, or even had a gun and was brandishing it.
“I personally think many more people should have been shot while committing felomnies on that day, but that’s just me.”
That is not the law, and quite honestly there are almost no ACTUAL felonies committed that day.
No one threw molotov cocktails.
No one fired a gun.
This is no evidence anyon in the capitol posesed a gun.
No one took an axe to a senators door.
There was a small amount of petty theft and childish behavior – not really that much.
“Unlike Cindy, perhaps you will at least acknowledge they were charged which she denies.”
I am not “acknoledging” anything just because you say it.”
That’s why there’s no point in me engaging with you. That they were charged (and convicted) of sedition is not just me saying it, it’s an easily provable fact.
Maybe you will acknowledge you misspelled acknowledge. Scroll up to your quote for the proof.
You still believe there was Russian collusion that stole the election from Hillary, doncha? Of course you do.
I am not challenging your claim.
I am almost not agreeing to it just because you made it.
You do not have a track record of trustworthy claims.
Therefore I will not accept something as proven – just because you claim it.
This is not an important issue – the DOJ is politically corrupt, they have demonstrated particular animous towards J6 protestors and have actively sought to terrorize and criminalize protest by the right.
The left is correctly terrified of the possibility of real protests from the right.
When people with families and jobs start to protest governments fall.
So I have no problems beleiving that DOJ has charged people with all kinds of egregious charges.
Nor do I have a problem believing that DC juries have convicted people.
A DC Jury today with a MAGA supporter is much like a white Jury in the south 70 years ago – conviction is certain.
But my POINT was that I am not going to “acknowledge” something – just because YOU say it.
Everything you say is not false, but enough is that YOUR saying something does not constitute proof or evidence.
Not “acknowledging” what you want, is not asserting the opposite. It is just recognizing that when YOU claim something more proof than your word is needed.
“That they were charged (and convicted) of sedition is not just me saying it, it’s an easily provable fact.”
Then prove it – because those like you with a track record of error are obligated to prove ALL your claims
Even those LIKELY to be True.
“I am not challenging your claim.
I am almost not agreeing to it just because you made it.”
It’s not my claim, it’s the facts, one’s you could easily discover with minimal effort, or watching even Fox News. Deny all you like, it just proves your ignorance is willful.
It is an assertion ina post here.
Absolutely SOMETHING is a fact.
But what is and is not a fact is not determined by whether you asserted it or not.
Your track record provides no basis for accepting that something is actually a fact – just because you have aserted it.
This particular claim is not important – though it seems to be to you.
Or more accurately it seems important to you – as is common with most left wing nuts, to compell others to accept as fact something you have asserted.
As you obliquily note – Facts just ARE – they do not need to be “aknowledged”
I do not acknowledge this alleged fact because I have is your assertion and you are not a reliable reporter.
And the claim is not important enough for me to check on my own.
As to your demand that I do research – when I make a claim – I do FIRST.
We have already demonstrated REPEATEDLY that you do not.
I am not denying anything.
I am willfully ignorant of all kinds of things – The time does not exist for me to know everything.
You have not as of yet made an argument that this is important.
YOU and other left wing nuts are making an enormous deal of an event in DC where the only deaths were of protestors – two of which were murdered by police. Where the protest itself was Clearly first amendment protected political speech of the most important kind.
Yet a few days ago – ACTUAL demostic terrorism – anarchists, openly intent on overthrowing everything, kill a police officer doing his duty,
Riot, destroy private property, burn police cars, apaprently bring bombs, terrorize a city,
and those on the left can not even manage to call it violence.
Presuming you are correct and DOJ has charged and prosecuted and convicted people of sedition – all that does is prove how screwed up DOJ and you are.
The US Capitol is the penultimate forum for public political protest,
Wells Fargo Bank or the Altanta Central Business district are not.
The GA State capitol is less than a mile away – if you wish to protest government, do so there.
The Atlanta police headquaters is nearby – if you wish to protest to the police, do so there.
As to YOU personally.
If you wish to be taken credibly – get your facts stright.
That is only the starting point.
Getting your values straight comes next.
If you can not tell the real differences between Atlanta, Portland, and much of the summer of rage in 2020 and J6
your values are F’d up.
If you actually beleived the things you claim to beleive – your values are in conflict with your actions – or those you defend and those you oppose.
Why are you afraid of election scrutiny ?
Why are you so engaged in doing or supporting the worst possible actions to accomplish what YOU claim to be your goals ?
I have noted a long list of police and other government reforms that I support.
I would suspect and hope that despite your anti-factual claims of systemic racism, that we could still agree on working as best as is possible to improve policing.
Though even with respect to improved policing – in my community and most of where I go, the policing is pretty good, crime is low.
I no longer live in the parts of my county where violent crime is comonplace. I know longer have the same high degree of concern that violent crime might effect me tomorow – as it actually has in the past.
But you or other members of your community do. You should want REAL improvement in policing and law enforcement even more than I do.
And I will be perfectly happy to let you do whatever you please in YOUR communities – so long as you do not wreak havoc on mine while you are at it.
If you really want to experiment with “defunding the police” in your community – go for it.
There is a long list of policing reforms being tossed arround left and right.
So long as you do not try to reform MY community to be the same mess yours is – it is not my place to tell you how to police YOUR community.
And not yours to tell me how I must pllice mine.
I have repeatedly offered my own views – most of which are supported by facts and data.
I have provided advice on what we know works and what does not.
But so long as you do not F’up my community – and that of others like me who are basicially happy with what we have – and if not are free to change it ourself – do whatever you want in yours.
Oh, and you get to pay for it – yourself.
Just as I must pay for the policing of my community.
If you want me to accept as correct the assertions you make
That is easy to accomplish.
Quit making so many errors.
Check your facts before posting.
Google is your friend.
Learn the difference between an actual source and someone just repeating nonsense that they heard.
Learn to do actual research.
and learn critical thinking.
Do those things and eventually you will earn a reputation for accuracy and integrity and people will trust what you write and what you say.
You are not EVER entitled to the acknowledgment by others of the assertions you make – even those that are likely correct.
You EARN the trust by others of the assertions you make – by establishing a reputation for accuracy and integrity and by correcting the actual errors you make.
Why is it that with you left wing nuts nearly all discussion ends up side tracked away from anything relevant ?
It is relevant that YOU do not have a track record of accuracy.
It would be relevant if YOU had turned that arround and for the past week or month or year avoided errors and corrected those you made.
It is not relevant that you might be correct on one recent assertion.
Absent establishing a basis to Trust what you post – you are not entitled to a presumption of correctness.
You are not entitled to acknoeldgement.
Turley blog drinking game>>>> hit it whenever Johnie Say says ‘left wing nuts’ as he ventures his factually skewed opinions.
Do you have a point ?
You might make more sense drunk.
This was posted by an advisor of Stacy Abrams.
“You cannot commit violence against a window or a car. Killing a human? Now that, that is violence, Shame on Atlanta’s leaders who fall into the same tired path of protecting property while our people are murdered by their police.”
https://c3.oann.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/abrams.png
If this is the standard – Why did democrats waste so much time on January 6th. Obviously the only acts at the Capitol on January 6th that we should care about are the murder of Babbit and Boyland
And you wonder why I use the term “left wing nuts” ?
This nonsense is not coming from trolls under bridges.
Even several in the media are echoing this nonsense.
18 U.S. Code § 16 – Crime of violence
The term “crime of violence” means—
(a)an offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another, or
Here is CBS reviewing the “peaceful protests” in atlanta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=834stGrwAeg
You wonder why those like you are labeled “left wing nuts” ?
It is because you think nothing of this. You think nothing of shooting police officers. You think nothing of Arson.
But the January 6th protests – those you have a problem with ?
One person was killed in atlanta – a protestor who shot at and seriously injured an Georgia State Police officer.
Did ANYONE do that on J6 ?
When was the last time someone on the right actually killed or assaulted anyone ?
Someone actually on the right – not some bat$hit crazy guy with BLM posters and gay pride banners at his Bus.
What is the appropriate label for someone on the left who concurrently beleives it is NOT OK for the police to kill Antifa members who shoot Police officers, but that it is OK to kill unarmed protestors who are threatening no one ?
If as the left claims – it is OK for protestors to commit arson and destory all kinds of property in Atlanta over the justified shooting of an Antifa member who seriously wounded a police officer – then why aren’t those on the right free to protest a stolen election ? Why aren’t they free to break windows ?
If the protests at the Capitol were Sedition, and insurection – why weren’t those in Atlanta ?
Those on the left would have no standards if not double standards.
Killing people is not an insigificant detail.
Spelling is.
ATS is having another meltdown.
Yet another venture into Barney Googleheimer’s mind as he ventures his skewed opinion on factual reality.
“Yet another venture into Barney Googleheimer’s mind as he ventures his skewed opinion on factual reality.”
This is a perfect example of ad hominem and a BASELESS oppinion.
We have an anonymous – i.e. no credibility poster spraying insults.
The post is a reference to the distinction between reality and opinion
Yet the post itself does not even mention much less cite an actual fact.
ATS thinks it is critical that he expose the spelling errors of others
Yet his own post is free of any substance at all.
SM had to make up a namew for you – because you continue to post without identity.
I post as JBSay – I have no need for other identities.
Thanks, Barney. Opinion only has one ‘p’. And reality doesn’t have a lot to do with your thoughts on it.
ad hominem not argument
do not give a schiff about spelling.
Just my oppppppppinion.
Don’t know Barney.
But I know Blarney when I see it – as in your posts.
You are correct – reality does not give a damn about either of us.
But our lives are impacted by the extent to which we correctly understand reality.
Di you have something of substance to say ?
“no one was armed (except the Capitol police) no one was violent, and no one was charged with sedition”
All three claims are false.
You can see who was charged with firearms violations, violence, and seditious conspiracy on the spreadsheet here: https://theprosecutionproject.org/january-6th-capital-protests/
Yup lots of charges not supported by the evidence.
Since you beleive there was an insurection – where were the troops bearing assault weapons ?
Here is the story of an actual insurrection. As you are confused.
https://poets.org/poem/paul-reveres-ride
Wow Bob. such insight.Democrats like you set the example for all to follow
Go watch the video again if you can find it. Ashli Babbitt was trying to go through the window. But, there was a fully armed cop in body armor standing within arms length behind her. He could have grabbed Ashli’s back pack and pulled her to the floor. Its really not much different than this only that the Babbitt killing happened much faster.
The Govt has to release all Brady Material including the 14,000 plus hours of video.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/01/caught-video-ray-epps-led-break-first-set-us-capitol-barriers-now-video-led-break-second-set-barriers-jan-6/
********
Politics
U.S. Capitol Police Chief Testifies ‘Highly Trained, Violent’ Provocateurs Were in Crowd at Capitol on Jan. 6
by Jamie White
January 14th 2023, 11:29 am
USCP admits under oath that agitators were embedded in the Jan. 6 crowd to “coordinate to remove barriers, overwhelm police, and attack police.”
https://www.infowars.com/posts/u-s-capitol-police-chief-testifies-highly-trained-violent-provocateurs-were-in-crowd-at-capitol-on-jan-6/
Now let’s see you evaluate the recent Project Veritas videos of the Pfizer dude saying Pfizer participates in Gain of Function regarding the covid scam.
When will this blog address the elephant in the room?
The Covid crimes that were visited us are, to this day, being denied as ever even happening.
And even with the films and records of “camps” and the courtrooms of Nuremberg, Holocaust deniers remain.
Is Jonathan Turley the man to comment of Pfizer and Covid in a “Nuremberg” sense?
When would it be time if he was?
All of the observations about horrendous police misconduct are valid, yet something else observed in the video should be included in the discussion: the failure of Mr Nichols to follow police instructions and lay down on the ground. Unfortunately, we see the same type of posturing and resistance so common in such cases, with a suspect attempting to contort their body in such a way as to avoid submission. It would be helpful in cases such as this, especially when there is resistance of ANY kind, peace officers of all types are taught to assume that everyone they encounter is ARMED, until they confirm through a search that there are no weapons. Keep that in mind as you watch Mr Nichols resisting the commands and physical inducements to submit and lie down flat. Then he runs, without ever giving the officers a chance to “clear” him. So it was reasonable in all interactions after that to continue to assume that Mr Nichols was armed. I understand that he was fearing for his safety or life from the moment the police stopped him, but he isn’t the first person to feel that way and he won’t be the last, so something has to be done to communicate to the general population but if you resist in any manner whatsoever, officers will continue to assume that you are armed until you submit to them. Of course no one knows for sure, but it’s not hard for me to imagine that if Mr Nichols had submitted totally when so instructed at the beginning of the encounter that he would be alive today.
This is the “get on the ground!” “I am on the ground” part, yes? The one right after the cops run up to the car demanding he get out, and then immediately pull him out without seeing if he was actually going to get out on his own?
Right after the cops claim Nichols endangered their lives with reckless driving.
“Since a federal prosecution would follow the state prosecution, it is not clear why the Biden Administration launched the investigation.”
Really? Not clear? C’mon man. Must be a joke.
Ok present a position. Do not assume that we all see things as you do or can read your mind. Perhaps waiting till local charges and investigations are done will make the feds case easier. Certain facts will have already have proven.