Below is my column in the New York Post on the latest developments in the Biden classified document investigation. The latest search occurred on the first day at the office for Robert Hur as Special Counsel. He may find that any potential criminal case has already been made more difficult by decisions by the FBI.
Here is the column:
The FBI issued the “all clear” on its latest search of one of President Biden’s residences. The announcement came with the first day of special counsel Robert Hur on the job at the Justice Department.
Hur may find that the Biden legal team feels that “all clear” extends beyond the latest search. It could be challenging to make a criminal case after how the investigation has been handled.
At every stage, the FBI has adopted an approach that would compromise or complicate any criminal charge.
The FBI left the home untouched for over three months after classified documents were found in Biden’s former office in DC. While it was recently learned that the FBI did go to that office a couple weeks later, they reportedly elected to have personal counsel for the president conduct searches on the residences. Biden then spent weeks traveling to these residences after the FBI waited to search the premises.
The private searches clearly went through these documents and moved (and potentially organized) material. Despite being given the opportunity to conduct and record the initial searches, the FBI will now have to rely on the accounts of private counsel on how these documents were originally left, including any visible classification markings.
For example, to go through the papers, counsel had to handle them, sort them, and stack or box them. That means that the original conditions are lost in determining, for example, if anyone in the vicinity could have seen a telltale bordered classified jacket or whether a classified document was partially or fully outside of a jacket.
The FBI allowed uncleared private counsel to tread all over these scenes, creating a nightmare of chain of custody.
It then waited weeks to send its own agents to places like Rehoboth Beach as counsel and the Bidens frequented the property.
It is also not clear how the FBI conducted these searches. Reports recently indicated that Biden included classified information in notebooks that were seized in earlier searches. If true, that is a nightmare for investigators because it would require agents to do more than simply look for classified documents with markings at the beginning of paragraphs and tops of pages. They would have to actually read material to determine if Biden incorporated classified material.
In fairness to the FBI, the same hands-off approach was initially used with Trump as the FBI allowed for material to be collected and stored with additional security at Mar-a-Lago.
There are two differences. First, Trump never denied having such material. He insisted that he was allowed to have the files because he considered them unclassified. Second, while the Trump team insists that the FBI was given access to the documents, Trump resisted efforts to turn over all of the documents. Indeed, the FBI has raised a pattern of obstruction and false statements.
With Biden, the FBI did not know where documents might be located. The findings overlap with residential and office space used by Biden over the years. Moreover, they were reportedly told that they could search and seize any documents. They did not use that opportunity to search all of these locations, even after counsel erroneously stated that no more classified material was present at these locations.
The FBI is moving no more aggressively with other possible areas containing classified material. The FBI still has not reportedly searched the massive trove of Biden documents being stored at the University of Delaware. Reports indicate that Biden removed classified material as senator and these records cover that period. Looking for a few documents in Rehoboth Beach and not the university (roughly 80 miles away) with a truckload of documents is like driving past the ocean to go fishing in a wading pool.
The result for Hur is a case that is messier than Biden’s garage. It is hard to see how this investigation would yield a solid criminal case absent confirmation that Biden worked off clearly classified material. If so, he showed both intent and knowledge of unlawful possession during prior years. It would also make his categorical denials of any knowledge appear more sinister and incriminating.
Either way, none of this suggests “transparency,” as Biden likes to boast. The investigation has proceeded with a small fraction of the information leaked or released against Trump. Rep. James Comer (R-Ky.) also says that the National Archives were blocked from putting out a press release about the case — either by the Department of Justice or the White House. Combined with the fact that nothing was made public until after the midterms, it shows that Biden’s team wanted to keep this quiet.
In the end, both Biden and Trump come out looking bad but that is not nearly as bad a thing for Trump.
Jonathan Turley is an attorney and a professor at George Washington University Law School.
American taxpayers pay $18 billion per year to classify documents but only spends about 5% of that amount on declassification. A simple request to declassify any document can take up to 5 years to review. Most of that $18 billion in taxpayer dollars (every year) has nothing to do with national security.
Why not reverse this equation? Why not spend 95% of taxpayer dollars to declassify decades of mostly non-sense not related to national security in any way and spend 5% classifying legitimate material actually related to national security?
All those wasted tax dollars could be used for much more legitimate purposes.
It is very easy to get something classified.
It is very hard to get it declassifed.
Some of that is natural – and NOT inherently wrong.
Many many many government documents are an should be classified.
The overwhelming majority are highly secret – for a very short time.
One easy example – the presidents schedule.
Where he WILL BE is top secret.
Where he has been is not.
Also important is where a document is produced and what it is about.
Raw CIA intelligence has a high probability of compromising sources and methods – even if the content itself is mundane.
Further it is really hard to know when enoguh time has passed that it is safe to declassifiy raw intelligence.
Conversely the analysis products are higher levels of government have progressively less risk fo exposing anything of consequence.
Many things generated by the WH are highly classified – and almost all should be declassified within months, or a few yars of their creation – and can be declassified without risk.
Another area of classification is actual information about defense systems. Such as the designs of weapons.
These need to be classified until the weapon is out of service.
declassifying weapons systems information is easy – is the weapon still in service or would the information be useful to enemies.
Declassifiying documents generated at the top of government is easy – has enough time passed that this is no longer useful.
Declassifying raw intelligence is really really hard.
“ Many things generated by the WH are highly classified – and almost all should be declassified within months, or a few yars of their creation – and can be declassified without risk.”
Declassification is determined by the classifying authority. Automatic declassification occurs after 25 years from the date of classification. Unless certain information is still relevant.
“ Declassifiying documents generated at the top of government is easy – has enough time passed that this is no longer useful.‘
LOL! Nope. It’s hard and arduous. See rules I posted.
Had you ACTUALLY been comprehending what I was writing, it was not about what the Rules ARE.
It is what the nature of different types of classified information at various places in government are.
The authority to classify and declassified is the absolute exclusive constitutional power of the president. See navy v. Egan
That is a 6-3 Supreme court case.
There are no rules or laws AT ALL regarding classification that apply to the president.
One president can not make rules binding another.
Congress can not make rules binding a president.
A president can not agree to laws binding a future president.
With respect to Everyone else in Government – including the Vide President. The rules are determined By the President.
The most recent Executive order covering this is Obama’s – that is a modification of an order by Bush that is a modification of an order by Clinton.
Trump chose not to modify the order further.
That EO applies to everyone in government – Except the President.
You noted “automatic declassification after 25 years” – that was put in place by Clinton and continued with Bush and Obama.
Only problem – IT NEVER HAPPENS – There is a backlog of over 40 Million classified documents waiting to be Automatically declassified.
Regardless, the POINTs I was making are valid.
There may even be more than 3 catagories of Classified information.
I would note the issues I was addressing deal with more than just classification – they are also relevant to encryption.
For various reasons our government transmits classified and unclassified information via encrypted channels all the time.
The modern US military battle network is encyrpted.
The objective for battlefield commincations encryption is that it is fast, accurate, and con not be decrpted quickly enough to alter the outcome of the battle.
On order to a F-15 to strike a particular Tank, is useless to the enemy of decypted 3 days later.
Conversely When the Secretary of State sends a Memo to an ambassador stating US negotiating positions – and often including comments about the world leaders that Ambassador may be negotiating with.
That memo may need to be safe for days, Weeks, even years.
One of the twisted problems of our govenrment – is those in the military are very very very serious about encryption – despite the fact that they often need the weakest encryption. While those in the diplomatic core are the most lackadasical – despite the fact that sometimes even 70 year old diplomatic memo’s can still cause international incidents.
One of the reasons that the “deep state” – and particulary the left Hates Jullian Assange is that he was provided with and able to decrypt a large trove of diplomatic memo’s sent by Clinton as SoS. The content of most of these was out of date and not a problem. But her remarks about other world leaders proved a major embarrassment to the US.
Bradley Manning’s leak of classified information – while absolutely exposing US misconduct,
Also with certainty got people killed.
Obama Commuted Manning’s sentence.
Snowden is still trapped in Russia.
Assange has been trapped in limbo in the UK awaiting extradition for a decade.
And his crime ? “F#$king with a Clinton”
Glad to see your efforts to both sides this is amped fully into gear, Jon…
But Hur’s efforts are clouded by the complete differences between Trump’s and Biden’s circumstances. He’ll not be able to get around Biden’s lack of intent and Trump’s total intent. He won’t be able to navigate Biden’s lack of ignoring subpoena’s. And in the aftermath, he’ll have to contend with hatred on the right for failing to make a case and defocus attention off of trump.
elvis
i can hear the paper shredders working overtime in D.C. Better check your closets, Turley…
And as an aside, I just can’t stop LOL @ these sentences:
“If true, that is a nightmare for investigators because it would require agents to do more than simply look for classified documents with markings at the beginning of paragraphs and tops of pages. They would have to actually read material to determine if Biden incorporated classified material.”
I’m sorry, I just can’t stop cracking up at that…
bug
” He’ll not be able to get around Biden’s lack of intent and Trump’s total intent.’
More BS. Biden was a Senator and a VP neither of which provided him the right to have classified documents out of specific facilities nor the right to declassify all documents.
Time to learn what you are talking about.
Always seeking to learn on my end. Clearly, it won’t be from you.
ATS, you reached a dead end long ago, so learning for you is out of the question.
Once again, you confuse Bug and other anonymous commenters, even when he identifies himself.
Whoops, I didn’t check the preceding email, but look at all the times you didn’t make such an identification. Am I correct 99% of the time? It seems that way, but I can’t help it if someone wishes to pretend to be Anonymous the Stupid. Let them pretend. No matter what, you remain the real Anonymous the Stupid.
You’re the only Anonymous the Stupid here.
ATS you hold the title of Anonymous the Stupid even if bug tries to replace you.
The A in ATS is for Allan.
ATS, no one believes the name Anonymous the Stupid was meant for me. You may wish so, but your continuous attempts to pin the name on me fall flat since I named you Anonymous the Stupid and others have used that name when referring to you. Another blog member abbreviated it to ATS. You think you are smart, but you are demonstrating the opposite.
According to John, your belief in your correctness is religious.
How so? I think you are making a mistake. I welcome people correcting me, but in your case what is well known is that you lie and deceive. Therefore one can conclude you are not credible.
You believe you’re “correct 99% of the time” in the absence of proof. John says that’s religious belief.
It’s based on an estimate. That is not faith. Your leftism is a faith based religion as just demonstrated. You couldn’t even read a simple letter correctly because you God is telling you something different.
You are not credible.
You are Anonymous the Stupid.
Trump intended to keep classified documents in his SCIF at MAL.
That is legal.
Criminal intent is not merely acting with intent.
It is acting CRIMINALLY with intent.
There are Three elements:
Acting – Trump did not act. The documents with near certainty arrived at MAL legally, There were no subsequent acts.
Intent – Trump had intent, but the intent was legal intent. He intended to keep documents that may or may not be classified in a secure place.
Actual crime. Read the espionage act. The crime is something you DO, you can not violate the law passively.
I would note that the only intent required for 18cfr793(f) is Recklessness.
Biden has clear reckless criminal intent.
Biden also ACTED – the Senate docs were removed from a SCIF and Biden had no authority to do so.
The VP documents MAY have arrived at Biden’s home legally – but they were subsequently moved to insecure locations.
It is physically impossible that they were moved to the Biden center at the end of Biden’s vice presidency.
Moving them from whereever they were in 2017 to BC in 2018 was a Crime of recklessness.
“Trump intended to keep classified documents in his SCIF at MAL.
That is legal.”
False.
““Trump intended to keep classified documents in his SCIF at MAL.
That is legal.”
False.”
Not an argument.
What part do you think it false ?
Regardless, it is legal.
Even JW v. NARA ABJ concluded that even if Clinton’s tapes were classified, he can keep them in his sock drawer,
and there is nothing NARA, the Courts or DOJ can do about it.
What a president takes with them when they leave office is THEIRS
“ Acting – Trump did not act. The documents with near certainty arrived at MAL legally, There were no subsequent acts.”
Oh yes there were. There were acts of obstruction, deception, non-cooperation. That the documents arrived legally is in dispute. That’s why NARA tried for nearly two years to get those documents back. Legally as per the PRA Trump was NOT supposed to take them with him. Taking them knowingly would constitute theft.
That he did so knowingly and being fully aware of the PRA demonstrates his criminal intent. Further bolstering that evidence he refused to return then when asked by NARA. He already intended to keep documents that were not his to keep.
“ He intended to keep documents that may or may not be classified in a secure place.”
He intended to keep documents that were classified. That is no longer in dispute. They were not in a secure place until the FBI TOLD his staff to secure it. He had those documents in an unsecured storage room for nearly a year before the FBI showed up to check on the documents for NARA.
“ Read the espionage act. The crime is something you DO, you can not violate the law passively.”
He obstructed access to the FBI and hid the existence of classified documents until a whistleblower reported it to the FBI and NARA. That is a violation of the espionage act.
“ Biden has clear reckless criminal intent.
Biden also ACTED – the Senate docs were removed from a SCIF and Biden had no authority to do so.”
What proof do you have for that claim? Biden had security clearance high enough and there is no way of knowing what sort of classification those documents were and what the value of the information was.
“ It is physically impossible that they were moved to the Biden center at the end of Biden’s vice presidency.
Moving them from whereever they were in 2017 to BC in 2018 was a Crime of recklessness.”
You have no evidence to make the claim that a crime was committed. You or I don’t have enough information to determine what you are claiming. You’re just saying that because you want Biden to be guilty regardless of the evidence.
As has been noted repeatedly – according to Judge ABJ in JW v. NARA – Docs – even if they are classifed, belong to Trump.
You can not obstruct and you need not cooperate and you have no duty to assist in the theft of YOUR property.
Repeating the same failed arguments is just stupid.
Failure to KowTow to the left is not a crime.
If you do not wish to be compared to stalinists – Do not make the same stupid arguments.
The rule of law, requires the same law applied the same way all the time for everyone.
Failure to cooperate is NOT a crime – except in the USSR and other marxist states.
It was the USSR and CCP where claiming innocence results in more severe punishment
and repentantly confessing guilt assured minimal punishment.
This is NOT the USSR or CCP.
In the US Vigorously claiming innocence is NOT a crime.
If Trump has said or written anything since Jan. 21, 2021 that is classified information and he provided it to others – then Trump has violated the espionage act.
That is true even if the classified information comes entirely from Trump’s mind – not documents in his possession.
The only exception to this is if the information was somehow made public by someone other than Trump before he wrote it
Anyone who has ever had a security clearance knows this. It is NOT the marked binder or the markings within the document that make something classified – it is the contents. Once you have a clearance and have read or heard classified information – you are responsible to protect it forever – even what is in your head.
Exactly the same applies to Biden.
“ It is NOT the marked binder or the markings within the document that make something classified – it is the contents. Once you have a clearance and have read or heard classified information – you are responsible to protect it forever – even what is in your head.”
Wrong. For anything to be deemed classified it MUST be marked and identified. It’s not just the binder or folder that is marked. Every page within the document must contain markings identifying it as classified. The cover page, certain borders color coded, etc.
Wrong.
First if you have more than a handful of working neurons you would easily be able to grasp that
Classified marks can only be a guide.
I have actually held a TS/SCI clearance.
This is covered very early.
Do you understand that classified information can be communicated, on paper, verbally, visually or electronically.
If I go to a classified briefing – the words spoken are classified – whether “marked” or not.
If I read a classified document – the knowledge in my head is STILL classified.
If I take notes reading a classified document or Later write a memo based on classified information in my head – that memo is classified.
Whether Marked or not.
Many things are BORN classified – much of what occurs in the WH is classified.
I noted previously the PResidents schedule is highly classified, as is every cabinet member.
Something does not have to be marked to be classified.
Nor does something being marked prove it is classified.
Trump declassified (for the 2nd time) a massive amount – all the collusion delusion investigations on Jan 19, 2021.
That means every document related to the Collusion Delusion – whereever it iis located within the government
Every copy – marked or not – is fully declassiifed. Many of the declassified documents have dozens of copies – at DOJ, at the House, at the Senate, at FBI, at CIA.
Marked or not as of Jan 19, 2021 they are all declassifed.
Classified markings are a CLUE as to whether something is classified. There is a default presumption that if something is Marked it is classified and if it is NOT marked it is not classified. They are NOT indisputable proof.
If you are the author of a memo that contains classified information but is not marked – YOU know that memo is classified – because you created it using classified knowledge. And you have a duty to protect it.
If you are not the author and you have no way to know that the memo is classified – you are allowed to presume it is not classified.
If a documents is MARKED classified and YOU did not declassify it or otherwise KNOW that it is declassified you are obligated to treat it as classifed.
You can not honestly be this stupid.
Think about this just a little.
I remain dismayed and dumbfounded that NARA and federal department/agency security offices were not aware of outstanding/missing documents for all these years–and this is just involving presidents/vice-presidents….and this is merely what we know about. What happened to chain-of custody protocols, destruction trackers, and all those data logs?
I cannot put my head around the number of documents (copied or original) that likely have been compromised over the years and remain unaccounted for or unknown—we only learn of the common persons getting “caught.”
No wonder the United States has lost its towering strength among global powers. The more we spend to develop STEM and military research, the more it can be bought elsewhere for a few foreign bucks.
Wish I had something nice and bright to say this morning, but I just keep shaking my head in disbelief.
(…But I still believe in Santa Claus. And chocolate.)
Lin, one factor stands out. The documents from Biden’s time as senator were not required to be in the custody of NARA. Senatorial documents even those that may have included some classified documents may not have been tracked as closely as those of a president due to the requirements of the PRA.
Then there’s the value of the classified documents found. There’s likely no longer any value on what was in the documents, but still remained ‘classified’ merely because they were still marked as such. Pence also had them and it’s clear staffers handle most of those and it should be no different in Biden’s case. The real issue seems to be a general lack of account for many of the lower classification of those documents and the value the information contained. What may have been classified at the time may no longer have the same value as classified material today, but are still marked as such.
Svelaz: Did you happen to read my very first sentence, second clause, which clearly shows its scope was narrowed to “and this is just involving presidents/vice-presidents…” Your unrequested response about Biden as Senator is wholly moot. You must learn to “read more comprehensively,” as you are wont to advise others.
And why are you attempting to educate me on the relative “value” of classified documents-also having nothing to do with my comment?
I’m being polite by taking the time to respond. Thanks anyway.
I believe that it would be a better discussion if we stopped and split the discussion of the Trump case and focused on Biden.
The FBI has botched the entire case. They did not a warrant to search any of the locations. The warrant would also show what the agents were looking for. Merely taking the word of Biden’s personal attorney that they are cooperating should be taken with a grain of salt, after all the job of Biden’s counsel is to protect Biden.
The discovery of classified documents at Penn Biden Center was conducted by Biden’s attorneys. In my mind I’m wondering why personal counsel was searching for documents there. Once the discovery was reported the FBI did not follow what would be normal procedure. They allowed counsel to continue to participate not as observers. Normally, the office would have been sealed so that access would be limited. Then there is the matter of what was removed from the office prior to reporting the documents? Did the FBI catalog the evidence and photograph the office? Again no warrant.
At the Wilmington home private counsel was present to observe the search? What was the interaction between counsel and the agents on scene. Is it possible that counsel looked for documents before the office at Penn-Biden. If so did that trigger the search of the Penn-Biden office. Again no warrant.
The beach house was conducted after the Biden’s spent the weekend there. Why did’t the FBI search the house before the weekend search. There is no way to ask this diplomatically did the president or Mrs. Biden search the house for documents and were any removed? Normal practice would be to ask the president not to visit until the search was completed. Again no warrant.
How many times were the documents moved and who had access to them and who moved and handled them in these unsecured locations? No a locked garage next to the presidents classic car is not secure.
Then we have the papers from the presidents term as vice-president as well as his senatorial career. Why haven’t been searched? It has been proven that the president had classified material from his term as vice-president. That lone would be cause for a search warrant for the documents and papers at the University of Delaware.
Under normal procedure this would be treated as a possible criminal case, yet it is not. I recognize that we’re dealing with POTUS, so this case would normally managed by a senior agent from FBI headquarters.
A reporter asked the president about the appointment of the special counsel. Biden’s response was he did not know there was one. The AG would have informed him and its in all the papers. The FBI is searching your homes and the Penn Biden Center office. Mr. president are you that unaware?
williamdowney5: No, I don’t think Biden is/was “unaware.” I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, and with the experience I might have in assessing persons, that he is an inherently, habitual and untrustworthy liar.
p.s., nice comment summarizing some things….
(p.s., didn’t mean to imply that it takes talent to see through Biden. I was just referring to a special job once, assessing potential witnesses and jurors for other attorneys)
Lin, what about Trump’s own obstruction and refusal to cooperate for nearly two years? Trump is also a habitual liar and his actions on his documents case are more intentional than Biden’s.
There is no probable cause for a warrant.
Svelas’s posts on this subject are nothing more than disinformation.
Nobody has proven it is not.
Another reason to not bother reading their posts.
Just scroll past.
Hello, Mr. Capone? This is Special Agent Willis at the FBI. Pardon me? Yes, THAT FBI. That’s right. I hope my call didn’t wake you and I apologize for any inconvenience, but we were wondering if maybe you could ask your personal attorneys rummage around in your files to see if there’s any evidence of criminal conduct we should know about before we raid your home. Huh? Oh, let’s say a few months from now — how’s that? Will that give you enough time to conduct a thorough search? Good. The Bureau really appreciates your cooperation. Have a nice day. Bye bye now.
Yeah, that is about right.
Funny too!
Ralph– Excellent. The FBI clearly is providing cover for Biden (and Hunter) just as they did for Hillary. With the amount of time the FBI gave to Biden and his private counsel to scrub the beach house, If any classified documents were still there, Biden and his private attorneys are even more incompetent than we thought. The FBI has become a purely partisan organization, hell-bent on destroying Trump and slavishly devoted to shielding Biden from his and his family’s crimes. As I’ve said before, unless and until the FBI cleans itself up, if I ever am in a position to assist the FBI, I won’t.
The essential corruption is not the FBI.
______________________________
“It’s the [Supreme Court], stupid!”
– James Carville
_____________
If the foundation is putrefied, so the structure will be.
The singular American failure has been and continues to be the Supreme Court. Based on law alone, the SCOTUS must have struck down Lincoln’s illicit, critical denial of secession, the inflection point for the diminution of U.S. fundamental law and the incremental implementation of the unconstitutional principles of the Communist Manifesto. The entire, communist, American welfare state must have been struck down upon the emergence of each component since 1860.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
“…courts…must…declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void.”
“…men…do…what their powers do not authorize, [and] what they forbid.”
“[A] limited Constitution … can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing … To deny this would be to affirm … that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.”
– Alexander Hamilton
_________________
“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
– Declaration of Independence, 1776
That’s their playbook now, when it comes to powerful an/or prominent Democrats. Remember the email server they refused to demand from the DNC?
American Citizens! The Biden Crime Family private attorneys, after scouring the Biden Crime Residences for classified documents or crack or both, have concluded. They now allowed the FBI to gently walk into the Biden Hideout Beach House to look for documents or crack or both. Guess what, as the private attorneys had predicted, nothing there!
American Citizens, do you not feel relieved?
The FBI sort of breaking procedures when “investigating”. Gee the last time I heard about that was when the FBI was investigating Hilary Clinton’s e-mails and never searched the actual Democratic Committee Server, but had a “clone” to be searched, and Hilary wiped e-mails herself or hired someone to do that. The FBI director then listed all the findings of their investigation of the e-mails and just when they looked like they were going to issue charges, Comey says “that she did not intend to do anything wrong” and then issues his “All Clear”. Also allowing her counsel into her deposition about the e-mails(when that counsel was also under investigation) was a likely a break in procedure) Then there is the lack of investigation into Russiagate and all it’s unseemly accusations, if they investigated it at all.
I’m not saying that the FBI only breaks precedent when investigating democrats, but of late it looks that way.
With the way Trump was treated by the FBI from 2015-2022, I would say he probably felt no need to be cooperative to an institution that had shown unbridled hostility to him and a willingness to break rules ever since he declared his candidacy.
Seems strange to charge obstruction when the initial accusations and charges were illicit (not saying they don’t apply here). Thats a really great game to play. I’ll charge you with something outrageous criminally and obviously without corroboration and slap you with “obstruction” when you fight back. Almost the no win scenario. Oh and I’ll break you financially even if you’re not guilty.
A caution for others. Svelaz is on a tear today and I believe he is prepared to type his little fingers down to nubs. Unless he uses Siri to dictate.
Good synopsis, GEB!
TY honestlawyermostly, drdad7, and GEB.. sharing your spot on analysis.. Truth brings enlightenment…!!! ..a good observation is: that if the ‘Schiffs’ and ‘Svelazes’ are the best the ‘darkside’ can throw out there, then there really is hope for ‘..Truth, Justice and the American way..’ (the old ‘Superman’) to prevail….
Of course anyone who thinks the FBI’s conduct is appropriate and reasonable re Biden….and it happened quite by accident and is in no way intentional…..also believes in Purple Unicorns that spew sparkling Pixie Dust from its hind end!
Since the Special Prosecutor has been named…..what if any actions has he undertaken to get to the bottom of the Biden Classified Document Theft?
Of course we know Special Prosecutors and the US DOJ/FBI never leak to the media about such matters…..right?
Nothing in DC partisan politics happens by pure serendipity does it?
Who dropped the Dime on Biden?
Why are the University Document Trove not in the. hands of the Special Prosecutor for a thorough search page by page?
When will they be…..after they have a complete scrubbing by Biden and his Lawyers ?
When will Hunter’s abodes be searched….as he had uncontrolled access to the places where the known classified documents were found?
The classier documents on Biden’s end were not stolen. There’s no evidence that he deliberately took them and refused to turn them over when they were found. Staff often handle classified documents and are often the ones in charge of making sure they are accounted for just like Pence and
Trump’s staff were. Trump refused to hand over documents once they were found in his possession that were not his to have, that is by definition, theft.
“Why are the University Document Trove not in the. hands of the Special Prosecutor for a thorough search page by page?”
Because they are not government property. Senatorial records ARE the private property of the senator. President’s are held to a different standard because of the presidential records act which makes any record created, received, as part of the president’s job government property. The FBI would need probable cause to get a warrant to search the documents which belong to Biden at the Delaware university.
Hunter’s home will not be searched because there is no evidence that he has or took classified documents from his father’s office. There would have to be credible evidence first. Rumors and innuendo are not credible evidence.
The classier documents on Biden’s end were not stolen.
Classified documents from Joe’s time as a Senator, meets the legal definition of Stolen property.
There is no way to make a mistake, as a Senator to have possession of classified information. This is according to Democrat Senators that have served as the Gang of Eight on the intelligence Committee.
But, to repeat. What Joe did is not uncommon. All of DC knows and accepts, DC power players have classified documents.
Especially Presidents. Presidents always take classified documents. President do it, because the Constitution allows them to have classified material. The President just declassifies the material. It is futile to try to stop them.
Garland is the 2cnd idiot in this mix. Biden/Garland going after Trump, trying to score political points created this whole mess.
“Classified documents from Joe’s time as a Senator, meets the legal definition of Stolen property.”
How so? Nobody knew they were missing. When he first acquired them he had authorization and it’s more likely staffers handled them. When they were found he promptly notified authorities. Trump on the other hand actively refused to turn over classified documents and other records that were not his to keep. That is theft.
“There is no way to make a mistake, as a Senator to have possession of classified information.”
Pence proves there can be mistakes because he also took classified documents without knowing he had them. Biden would be no different. What the real issue is is the problem of why so many officials end up with classified documents and nobody keeps track of them. I wouldn’t be surprised if more senators or congressmen had similar “mistakes” in the past.
“Especially Presidents. Presidents always take classified documents. President do it, because the Constitution allows them to have classified material. The President just declassifies the material. It is futile to try to stop them.”
Yeah they can have them as part of their job. But when they are no longer president. They have no need to keep classified document at home. Especially president’s like Trump who have been barred from getting classified information by the new president. There still has to be a record of the president declassifying something and Trump has not produce any evidence of his claims. Meaning he lied about it.
How so? Nobody knew they were missing. When he first acquired them he had authorization and it’s more likely staffers handled them.
Senators on defined committee(s) are authorized to read classified material. Not possess. According to Democrat Senators.
Mere possession is not a crime. Biden has a security clearance and as a senator. He was chair of the senate foreign relations committee and the judiciary committee. Obviously he had the security clearances required for those positions.
There are levels of classifications and certain classifications are not as sensitive as others. If he took them with authorization and forgot about them that is not a crime or theft.
“When he first acquired them he had authorization and it’s more likely staffers handled them” actually no as other Senators have said over the past few weeks, Senators are allowed to review classified documents in a SCIF but they are not allowed to remove them from the SCIF. Which leads to the question did Joe pull a Sandy Berger and hide the documents in his socks?
The Senate docs are a big problems for Biden.
It is far harder to blame anyone else.
It is far harder to claim never to have been aware of them – in 15 years he must have bumped into them in his home atleast once.
Further the probability that the Senate Docs are deliberate means that the probability thatr all other docs are deliberate is much higher.
The senate documents are his private property. He can restrict access to them as long as he wants or he can change his mind.
“ It is far harder to blame anyone else.
It is far harder to claim never to have been aware of them – in 15 years he must have bumped into them in his home at least once.”
It’s not about being aware that matters is the value of the information at the time they were classified or reviewed. If NARA or Biden were unaware of the classified documents for 15 years it’s very plausible that the value of the information was never that high to begin with. Over time the value or significance of the information deemed classified may no longer be of significant value by the time they were found. Although they were still marked “classified” it doesn’t mean they still retain the same value when they were first classified.
Pence cannot make the same claim because his batch of classified docs is more recent and therefore assumed to have more significantly valuable information that is still relevant compared to Biden’s. Trump is in a similar situation given the ‘freshness’ of the classified documents. Compared to Biden’s.
“The senate documents are his private property. He can restrict access to them as long as he wants or he can change his mind.”
Really ? Please explain how that does not run affoul of everything you have claimed.
“It’s not about being aware that matters is the value of the information at the time they were classified or reviewed.”
Nope,
The US classifies way too much we all agree on that.
It is likely that none of these documents – not Pence, not Biden, not Trump shoucl have been classified or even if classified should have remained classified very long.
But that has ZERO legal consequence. The documents are classified, and everyone who can legally access them has a duty to protect them,
and if they fail to do so they committ a crime. The ONLY exception is the current president.
That is the only person in the country who can do whatever they please with classified documents – answerable ONLY to congress and only by impeachment.
“If NARA or Biden were unaware of the classified documents for 15 years it’s very plausible that the value of the information was never that high to begin with.”
Not in anyway relevant.
“Over time the value or significance of the information deemed classified may no longer be of significant value by the time they were found. ”
At the time they were removed illegally from th e Senate SCIF they were highly classified and it was a crime.
You can not undo that with time.
“Although they were still marked “classified” it doesn’t mean they still retain the same value when they were first classified.”
What matters is that they were classified when they were illegally removed.
Sen. Biden had no declassification authority.
Sen. Biden had no authority to personally possess. President’s vice presidents, and ex-presidents and vice presidents do.
They are the only people who could potentially posess a classified document in their personal space.
REgardless, as long as the document is classified – and only presidents have broad declassification authority.
they have a duty to protect it.
Biden failed.
Then John Walker should be released from Prison because it is unlikely that any of the classified documents that he stole are of any consequence today.
That is not how it works.
Sen. Biden STOLE Classified documents – period. Full Stop.
“The senate documents are his private property. He can restrict access to them as long as he wants or he can change his mind.”
Really ? Please explain how that does not run affoul of everything you have claimed.”
Those are SENATE documents. Not PRESIDENTIAL documents. The PRA does not apply to senators or congressmen. The law actually allows Senators and congressmen to keep their records. They own those records and they can do whatever they want with them. Even restrict access to them for eternity if they want to. Because they own them and they are NOT government property they are not subject to public need to know.
“But that has ZERO legal consequence. The documents are classified, and everyone who can legally access them has a duty to protect them,
and if they fail to do so they committ a crime. ”
IF prosecutors can prove the intent behind the inability to protect those documents.
“Although they were still marked “classified” it doesn’t mean they still retain the same value when they were first classified.”
What matters is that they were classified when they were illegally removed.”
When they were removed they were authorized to be removed. In Biden’s case when he first got them they were authorized to him. Having forgotten them does not automatically make it a crime. He turned them over immediately when they were rediscovered. He may have been in violation of the statute, but having returned them and cooperating with the DOJ is what the rules say he is supposed to do. Trump did NOT do that. Pence did what Bided did. Immediately return them to the proper authority. Trump did NOT.
“Sen. Biden had no declassification authority.
Sen. Biden had no authority to personally possess. ”
He didn’t have to declassify anything. He did not have authority to posses them as in keep them at home. But he did have a security clearance that allowed him to have them upon the understanding that he is supposed to return them after a reasonable time. We don’t know the information’s value was no longer valid after a certain period of time or if it was only temporary.
Once again you just make stuff up without knowing what you are talking about.
There is no such thing as a classified document that is congressional property.
“Those are SENATE documents.”
False, all classified documents are part of the executive branch. That is pretty much what “executive” means.
The Senate SCIF is run by the Executive brach.
The entire Classified Records system is run by the Executive branch.
Documents created by congress are congresses property.
This is not likely about the PRA, but the FRA.
No it does not apply to senators, but the documents do not beleong to the Senate or the Congress, they beleong to the executive.
They are classified by the executive, and managed by the executive. They are shared with the Senate – as part of congressional oversight of the EXECUTIVE. All SCIF’s are run by the Executive.
The documents are covered by the Presidential EO, and the Espionage Act.
They are Executive documents.
There is no such thing as classified congressional document.
No the Senate does not own the documents.
““But that has ZERO legal consequence. The documents are classified, and everyone who can legally access them has a duty to protect them,
and if they fail to do so they committ a crime. ”
IF prosecutors can prove the intent behind the inability to protect those documents.”
18cfr793(f) has no intent requirement, merely a negligent or reckless act.
Removing the document from the SCIF is sufficient.
Regardless you CONSTANTLY get Criminal intent wrong.
It requires an intentional act that you know or should know that you are not permitted to do.
It does not require the kind of intent you are claiming.
Biden would not have been allowed access to a SCIF without classified document training.
He was absolutely told he could not remove documents from the SCIF.
He did, that is all the Intent needed.
“When they were removed they were authorized to be removed.”
Nope.
“In Biden’s case when he first got them they were authorized to him.”
Nope. not how things work.
“Having forgotten them does not automatically make it a crime.”
If that were true, and it is not, it would still violate 18cfr793(f).
“He turned them over immediately when they were rediscovered.”
Right so your theory is Biden was allowed to remove classified docs from the Senate SCIF (false).
But lets assume that is true, you are still not permitted to remove them from a government fascility,
and if you are actually permittted to have a classified document in your posession outside a SCIF,
You are required to have it in your actual posession for the entire time you have it, until you return it to the SCIF.
SOME people are allowed to keep classified Docs in their office – in that case you secure storage in your office.
Sometimes a locked drawer, sometimes a secure safe – depends on the rules that apply for your job and for the documents that you handle.
No matter what a classified document can only be:
In your presence – with no one else present.
In an immobile approved locked container appropriate for your clearance and the classification fo the document you are storing within a government fascility,
Back at the SCIF.
This is BTW why Ex-Presidents and VP’s have Official offices – that are governmnt rented space, that typically contain a SCIF and are guarded by the Secret Service.
The transport of Classified materials between Secure Government fascilities is handled ONLY by couriers that are authorized to do so.
As an example I had a TS/SCI clearance. That allowed me to attend classified meetings, take notes – but not take them from meetings.
Take Classified documents from the SCIF at my fascility to my office, read them Return them.
I personally did not have an approved classified safe or drawer, but others at my work did.
If a classified doc was in an office when the person responsible for that Doc was not present, the doc had to be returned tot he SCIF or locked in an approved storage.
It was made absolutely clear than it would be a crime if I took a classified document out of the building I worked in.
I had a TS/SCI clearance and Still I could not remove a classified document from my workplace.
Nor could I share it with any co-workers – not even my boss, without the approval of my FSO.
“He may have been in violation of the statute”
no Matybe, he was. That is a crime.
“but having returned them and cooperating with the DOJ is what the rules say he is supposed to do.”
There is absolutely no rule or regulation that says that.
What you are discussion is called “Mitigation of a crime” – you are guilty regardless, but you typically get a lessor sentence if you behave.
“Trump did NOT do that.”
Actually as we are finding out he was Far more cooperative thatn Biden.
What is increasingly coming to light is that after the initial discovery – the FBI/DOJ spent months negotiating what would be done next.
trump allowed NARA and FBI to come to MAL as they pleased. To seach as they Pleased.
Biden did not allow the FBI to search – until after his own lawyers had Failed to search properly.
Biden’s handling resembles Clinton’s – where the FBI Trusted Clinton’s lawyers to search through here emails.
Except actually worse – because we know that Biden locations were searched by Uncleared attorney’s – Clinton’s atleast had TS/SCI clearance,
failed to Find docs, multiple times, and then later found them – or the FBI found them after failed searches by Biden attorney’s.
Eitehr Biden was uncooperative or incompetent or both.
Regardless, Biden and his attorney’s demanded more control over everything – and took longer to get this done than Trump.
And who knows we may find more Biden docs tomorow.
No marked classified docs were found at Rehobeth last week. But notes that may contain classifed information were found.
“Pence did what Bided did.”
No Pence did it closest to correctly.
The evidence so far is that Pence had absolutely no awareness that he had any classified docs.
That he did not pack ony and that he did not direct any to be packed.
That as this mess exploded, Pence hired attorney’s with security clearances and expertise in classified law, they searched his home.
They dound classifed docs in sealed boxes, NARA was notified and retrieved the Docs immeidately.
The FBI subsequently searched and found nothing more.
This is NOT the messy disaster that Biden has.
“Trump did NOT.”
Trump Owns them – Biden and Pence do not.
JW V. NARA.
“He did not have authority to posses them as in keep them at home”
NO as in he was not permitted to remove them frim the SCIF.
“But he did have a security clearance that allowed him to have them upon the understanding that he is supposed to return them after a reasonable time.”
First there is no such permission at all outside of presidents, vice presidents, ex-presidents and ex-vice presidents.
Only special couriers may transport classified documents between Secure Government Fascilities.
Even a TS/SCI does not permit possesion of a classified document outside a SCIF, or a secure fascility.
No one may take classified docs Home. A security clearance is not a library cared that allows you to check out docs.
There is no return after a reasonable time.
If you may remove a classified doc from a SCIF, you may take it- within a secure fascility, to your office, where it MUST be in your personal posession at all times, or in an approved locked storage.
If you have a classified doc in public – you have committed a crime.
If you have a classifed document in your home – you have committed a crime.
Only presidents, ex-presidnts and VP’s may ever have classified documents in their homes – and they are provided SCIF’s and Government offices. They may not take classified docs out of those.
“We don’t know the information’s value was no longer valid after a certain period of time or if it was only temporary.”
Possible mitigating factor, still a crime.
If you are going to post on Classified document and classified document handling – please actually leanr something about it.
Here is a training guide for federal contractors.
https://www.cdse.edu/Portals/124/Documents/student-guides/IS109-guide.pdf
“Then John Walker should be released from Prison because it is unlikely that any of the classified documents that he stole are of any consequence today.
That is not how it works.
Sen. Biden STOLE Classified documents – period. Full Stop.”
Nope. John Walker went to prison because he was a spy not a haphazard politician. It’s a false equivalence.
Biden didn’t steal anything. He was authorized to have them. Forgetting to return them and nobody knowing about those documents being missing does not meet any legal definition of theft. We know you want it to be a crime because you hate leftists. That’s not following the rule of law.
“John Walker went to prison because he was a spy not a haphazard politician. It’s a false equivalence.”
The espionage Act does not distinguish between Senators and Spies.
It like ALL LAW punished CONDUCT.
“Biden didn’t steal anything.”
Of course he did, Classified Docs beleong to the Government, not the Senator.
“He was authorized to have them.”
No he was authorized to look at them.
He MIGHT have been authorized to posess them in his office – though no senator has come forward to sugest that.
He was never authorized to allow them out of his sight or take them home.
“Forgetting to return them and nobody knowing about those documents being missing does not meet any legal definition of theft.”
Yes, it does. There is no “I forgot” exception to the law on theft. You can claim that as a mitigating factor, not as a claim of innocence.
There is no “no one noticed” exception – again you can argue that as a mitigating factor, nothing else.
Theft is taking what is not yours.
“We know you want it to be a crime because you hate leftists.”
No it is a crime. Please read the espionage act – none of the “expections” you are claiming are in there.
I would also suggest looking at the Pertreaus, Deutch, Berger cases.
The espionage act is the LAw,
These will give you the case law.
The good news For Biden is that outside of the military, so long as you do not provide top secret information to foriegn contries,
The maximum penalites are never applied. But People are charged and convicted for this all the time.
“That’s not following the rule of law.”
Actually it is
Become familiar with the law and case law.
You are constantly running afoul of it.
Peter, an SCIF is used for top secret to TS/SCIF documents. There are other levels of classification that do not require they be viewed in an SCIF. There’s, confidential, classified, Top secret, and top secret compartments information.
“ Although all classified documents can be viewed in a SCIF, it is not required that documents in the least restrictive classification categories be viewed in those facilities. The facilities are used typically for materials categorized as “top secret/sensitive compartmented information.”
Classified documents below the top levels typically are stored, retained and viewed in classified spaces that are not SCIFs, said Bradley Moss, a Washington, D.C., lawyer who works on national security cases. These classified spaces do not have the same security guidelines as SCIFs, he said, though they are more restrictive than normal workspaces.
The only information that must be protected in a SCIF is classified information derived from intelligence sources and methods, said Steven Aftergood, former director of the Federation of American Scientists Project on Government Secrecy.
So, there is a broad swath of “classified documents” that is not required to be brought to a SCIF in the first place.”
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/scif-skiff-classified-documents-removal-biden-trump-pence/
Pence proves there can be mistakes because he also took classified documents without knowing he had them. Biden would be no different
I specified classified material from Biden’s time as Senator. Pence was never a Senator.
Pence was a Representative (IN-6).
Pence was a Representative (IN-6).
How is this responsive?
Other than to prove leftist are constantly entering meaningless drivel into the discussion.
After losing two bids for a congressional seat in 1988 and 1990, he became a conservative radio and television talk show host from 1994 to 1999. He was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000 and represented the 2nd district of Indiana from 2001 to 2003 and the 6th district of Indiana from 2003 to 2013.
You said “Pence was never a Senator,” and I pointed out that he was a Rep. Both Senators and Representatives are members of Congress. Did I really need to spell that out for you?
Whether Pence was a senator or not is irrelevant. Both took documents they were not supposed to have. Pence was NOT VP when they sent those documents to his home. Both had staff handle those documents and both clearly made mistakes that were promptly corrected once they were discovered.
Pence was NOT VP when they sent those documents to his home.
Of course he was VP at the time. Not sure why its pertinent.
I keep repeating. This has been going on for 100’s of years. Biden/Garland never dreamed this would blow up in their faces. Because they are, just that dense.
Hunh? Trump picked Pence because he was a senator, so he could be some sort of bridge from Trump’s administration to Congress.
The point being, a senator as a member of the legislative branch can only view classified docs in a SCIF, while the vice president as a member of the executive branch can have classified docs all over the National Observatory.
Pence was NEVER a Senator. He was a Rep in the House from 2001-2013. He ran for Governor of Indiana in 2013 and served as Governor from 2013-2017. Trump chose him as his V.P. running mate and he remained Governor until he was inaugurated as V.P. in Jan 2017.
Trump picked Pence because he’s an evangelical Christian.
And Biden picked his VP because, vagina, and melatonin level.
Trump picked his VP because, penis, and melatonin level.
Can one prove that these nine words were written with certainty by Anonymous the Stupid? No, but it is a good guess and likely to be true. It has the telltale response containing the words of the one he is replying to. ATS has no imagination of his own. Maybe ATS will tell us.
“Because they are not government property. Senatorial records ARE the private property of the senator.” except that we have evidence that Biden removed classified documents while he was in the Senate. that opens the door to reviewing those 1865 cartons and 400 mb (?) to see if other classified materials are present.. but good job for trying to provide cover fire for Joe
PeterK, Nope, because we don’t know if Biden’s home was not authored to have such documents when he was a senator. He didn’t removed them without authorization. The issue is that nobody bothered to make sure that they were returned and they fact that NARA or the government had no idea they were missing suggests the information was not that valuable despite being marked “classified”.
“Trump resisted efforts to turn over all of the documents. Indeed, the FBI has raised a pattern of obstruction and false statements.”
Glad we agree.
Indeed, on June 3, 2022, Christina Bobb certified that:
I have been designated to serve as Custodian of Records for The Office of Donald J. Trump, for purposes of the testimony and documents subject to subpoena #GJ20222042790054. … I am authorized to certify, on behalf of the Office of Donald J. Trump, the following:
a. A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Florida;
b. This search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena, in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to the subpoena;
c. Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification; and
d. No copy, written notation, or reproduction of any kind was retained as to any responsive document.
I swear or affirm that the above statements are true and correct to the best of my knowledge.
That’s a false certification that all documents with classified markings had been returned to the government and Trump was no longer in possession.
“The FBI allowed uncleared private counsel to tread all over these scenes, creating a nightmare of chain of custody.”
Yes, for Biden and Trump and Pence (who you don’t mention).
“The FBI still has not reportedly searched the massive trove of Biden documents being stored at the University of Delaware.”
And they also haven’t searched Bedminster, Trump Tower, and other Trump properties. That’s how it works when you have no probable cause for a search.
Assuming the quoted passages are as accurate as they are stated by “Anonymous,” it would appear that there’s a difference of opinion here between what one party said and what the other party found. Rather than jump to conclusions, perhaps, the special counsel will inquire of attorney Bobb what she meant by the words stated in her certification document. I can think of several good reasons that might contradict “Anonymous”’s unsupported conclusion. Remember, the FBI returned some materials they took that were not covered by their warrant. It’s possible Bobb made the same error when she assembled the requested documents that she believed and stated were responsive to the subpoena. As Cheryl Holmes used to save when defending President Clinton against impeachment, facts are stubborn things. Let’s wait for the facts to emerge before concluding that Biden or Trump is innocent or guilty. To do otherwise is just bias and useless conjecture, plain and simple.
JJc, if she erred in that statement. It means she was lied to by someone else. Trump is reported to have told his lawyers that he didn’t have anything else or that they were not allowed to search certain areas. Having trusted Trump and declared on his behalf that everything was turned over it would be evidence that Trump was intentionally hiding documents. That would be worse for Trump. It was her job as custodian of records to make sure everything.was turned over and it’s safe to assume that she asked Trump if he knew of any other places where he could have had documents. As a lawyer she had to ask because she was trying to comply with a subpoena. Obviously there were more documents and SHE is on the hook for signing the statement. She was lied to by trump and that is what resulted in the search warrant. The evidence obtained on the search proved either she lied or trump lied to her. It’s more likely Trump was the one who lied to her because he’s the one who still believed wrongly that all those documents were his. He only claimed he declassified them AFTER it was discovered he had classified documents he did not declare declassified when he left. He cannot produce evidence that he declassified all those documents. Trump being a well known liar certainly can be accused of having lied about it.
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Your guilt for being a paid troll is showing even more clearly than the thong you love, Enoch.
And they also haven’t searched Bedminster, Trump Tower, and other Trump properties. That’s how it works when you have no probable cause for a search.
A simple statement of fact informs. The President of the United has Plenary power to declassify material. (No, he is not required to fill out forms)
Ah, but a record must be made that the documents were indeed declassified. Because people asking for the information such as thru FOIA CAN access those documents if they were indeed declassified. Trump or any of his White House staff has been able to provide any proof that the documents were declassified. The staff is required to notify the agencies where the classified documents originated that they are no longer classified. Trump was lying. Otherwise he would have easily produced the records showing those documents were properly declassified.
>”Ah, but a record must be made that the documents were indeed declassified.”
Where/who would that be?
There are procedures and folks who do that and they are required by law to let everyone know that the documents are no longer classified so that the public or researchers can access them. Typically the agency that classified the information is charged with declassifying it upon getting authorization from the president. They have to put it on record that such documents were declassified.
Ah, but a record must be made that the documents were indeed declassified.
You keep making statements, but your record is still 100%. You Never provide supporting evidence.
He never will prove his contentions. He lacks the intellectual ability to truthfully analyze events. He is a copy and paste persona that doesn’t know what he pastes. You are talking to a headless typist.
That is because that statement is FALSE.
But worse still – Trump did explicitly declassify many things – such as the collusion delusion documents.
There are Records of this – Multiple EO’s.
I remain convinced that it is highly probable that the Trump docs are all Russia Gate related.
It makes sense that Trump would keep these.
It makes Sense that FBI in particular would be actively trying to get these away from Trump.
“ But worse still – Trump did explicitly declassify many things – such as the collusion delusion documents.”
FALSE, Trump ordered by tweet the declassification of those documents, BUT when they were being requested by the media his own chief of staff admitted that such documents were not declassified. Trump lied.
“ There are Records of this – Multiple EO’s.”
And yet you provide none. Hence it’s still false. An EO is not proof that the documents were indeed declassified. If they are I’m sure you would have no problem finding them online and show us.
“The President, after all, is the ‘Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States.’ U.S. Const., Art. II, 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security and to determine whether an individual is sufficiently trustworthy to occupy a position in the Executive Branch that will give that person access to such information flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.”
“The authority to protect such information falls on the President as head of the Executive Branch and as Commander in Chief,” the court said.
Your evidence citing Article II doesn’t prove your point at all. It only describes the responsibility to secure classified information. It says nothing about information automatically becoming declassified if it’s moved or given to someone else. Your’ claims are still BS.
You do not seem to understand what an exclusive power means.
This principle is ALSO the core of the JW v. NARA decision that you can not grasp.
ABJ did not say “if the president follows some formal process, JW loses”.
She said “JW loses, because no matter whether their claims are true or not, The president (clinton) can do as he damn well pleases, and no one – not NARA, not the courts, can tell him otherwise.”
It is not necescary to “prove” what you claim I must prove – so long as the power is exclusively a pesidential power, not only is the burden of proof on you, but you can not meet it. The courts can not review it.
The Correct 11th Appelate decision following the JW v NARA decision would have been “Return everything to Trump, he was the president, he posesses the documents, by Constitution and presidential power they are his, and the courts have no jurisdiction to even grant a warrant”
It does not matter if the Docs are classified or not.
It does not matter if they are presidential papers or not.
Constitutionally they are his if he wants them.
That is what ABJ held.
MEMORANDUM FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE
THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
SUBJECT: Declassification of Certain Materials Related to the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, I hereby direct the following:
Section 1. Declassification and Release. At my request, on December 30, 2020, the Department of Justice provided the White House with a binder of materials related to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Crossfire Hurricane investigation. Portions of the documents in the binder have remained classified and have not been released to the Congress or the public. I requested the documents so that a declassification review could be performed and so I could determine to what extent materials in the binder should be released in unclassified form.
I determined that the materials in that binder should be declassified to the maximum extent possible. In response, and as part of the iterative process of the declassification review, under a cover letter dated January 17, 2021, the Federal Bureau of Investigation noted its continuing objection to any further declassification of the materials in the binder and also, on the basis of a review that included Intelligence Community equities, identified the passages that it believed it was most crucial to keep from public disclosure. I have determined to accept the redactions proposed for continued classification by the FBI in that January 17 submission.
I hereby declassify the remaining materials in the binder. This is my final determination under the declassification review and I have directed the Attorney General to implement the redactions proposed in the FBI’s January 17 submission and return to the White House an appropriately redacted copy.
My decision to declassify materials within the binder is subject to the limits identified above and does not extend to materials that must be protected from disclosure pursuant to orders of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and does not require the disclosure of certain personally identifiable information or any other materials that must be protected from disclosure under applicable law. Accordingly, at my direction, the Attorney General has conducted an appropriate review to ensure that materials provided in the binder may be disclosed by the White House in accordance with applicable law.
Sec. 2. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this memorandum shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect:
(i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or
(ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.
(b) This memorandum shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.
(c) This memorandum is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.
(d) The Attorney General is authorized and directed to publish this memorandum in the Federal Register.
DONALD J. TRUMP
Interesting to note, your above quoted document does not show up in the Federal Register Disposition Table shown here:
https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders/donald-trump/2021
If you search for the text, it does show up here:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/01/25/2021-01717/declassification-of-certain-materials-related-to-the-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation
So a casual search would not link to it but a specific search would. I find that more than a little interesting. I also does not show in the downloadable spreadsheet provided by NARA.
This government is trying hard to avoid any of this reaching the public ever.
While I have no doubt the Biden whitehous is complicit, the obstruction started long before Biden was elected,
Few – including Trump himself grasp the extent to which so much of the government was working against him – while he was president.
Trump’s accomplishments under the circumstances are that much more remarkable.
It also demonstrates howq little of our federal government is actually necescary.
“Trump’s accomplishments under the circumstances are that much more remarkable.”
That is the truth.
I posted the relevant part of Navy v. Eagan a 6-3 SCOTUS decision determining that the PResident of the United States has unlimited power to control classified information.
I posted Tump’s Jan 19, 2021 Executive order declassifiying the RussiaGate documents.
Both of these have been posted many times before.
Your ignorance of them is no excuse.
John, the Navy v. Eagan case did not prove your argument is correct either. It only cites the president’s responsibility to safeguard classified information. I says nothing about declassification or that taking classified information automatically makes it declassified. Your claims are still BS.
“I posted Tump’s Jan 19, 2021 Executive order declassifiying the RussiaGate documents.”
That was NOT an EO. It was a memorandum sent to the AG. Again your claim is still BS. If it was an EO it did not have a number attached to it which is required by law. Nice try.
THis is getting tiresome.
You have not read the decison – clearly.
You are making claimes that are just made up regarding it.
I would note that Navy V. Egan is not “The Law” – it is SCOTUS observing what is in the constitution.
Regardless, the portion of the relevant portion of the decision is Dicta, not a holding.
HOWEVER, it makes clear – all power over national security – including classified documents vests in the president.
In moron’s terms – the president can do whatever he wants. A senator must follow the law.
Here is a CNN story confirming that much was declassired previously and that The entire governmnt KNEW that Trump’s mass declassifcation of RussiaGate documents was coming – over the strenuous objections of much of the government.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/11/politics/trump-russia-investigation-declassification-battle/index.html
Many of us beleive that this entire Mess is these same people trying to make sure that documents Trump has already declassified that are embarrassing to them never see the light of day.
Leading up to the raid – even cited in the Affadavit for the warrant were remarks by Kash Patel that he would PUBLISH the declassified documents if the AG did not complete the redaction process and publish them as directed by EO.
I think it is more than 80% likely that this entire fight is over the Deep State efforts to avoid the public release of Russiagate docs that have already been declassified.
Iowan2, obviously you have the capability to find out for yourself, but I will indulge your ignorance.
“ As with classification, declassification is a two-step process. First, an authorized official must determine that the information no longer requires protection. Second, that determination must be communicated so that the protections are removed. Accordingly, when a decision has been made to declassify information, it must be marked as declassified. If the declassification affects an entire category of information, the agency’s classification guide must be updated accordingly. If it is narrower, the decision may be captured in a declassification guide — although often, the consultation process that accompanies a declassification decision is sufficient to alert the necessary personnel. ”
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/government-classification-and-mar-lago-documents
Here’s the link to the rules governing declassification and the procedures.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title32-vol6/pdf/CFR-2010-title32-vol6-part2001.pdf
“ 2001.25 Declassification markings.
(a) General. A uniform security clas- sification system requires that stand- ard markings be applied to declassified information. Except in extraordinary circumstances, or as approved by the Director of ISOO, the marking of de- classified information shall not deviate from the following prescribed formats. If declassification markings cannot be affixed to specific information or mate- rials, the originator shall provide hold- ers or recipients of the information with written instructions for marking the information. Markings shall be uni- formly and conspicuously applied to leave no doubt about the declassified status of the information and who au- thorized the declassification.
(b) The following markings shall be applied to records, or copies of records, regardless of media:
(1) The word, ‘‘Declassified;’’
(2) The identity of the declassifica- tion authority, by name and position, or by personal identifier, or the title and date of the declassification guide. If the identity of the declassification authority must be protected, a per- sonal identifier may be used or the in- formation may be retained in agency files.
(3) The date of declassification; and
(4) The overall classification mark- ings that appear on the cover page or first page shall be lined with an ‘‘X’’ or straight line.”
Tons of chafe you have unloaded here. But not a single morsel of grain. Not a single word of this addresses the Plenary Power of the President of the United States
Every thing you have posted is a Presidential Executive order.
As is the Svelaz standard,
the lie is of omission. Each of the executive orders exempts the President and Vice President from complying with any of the EO.
Just more of the leftist tactic of misdirection.
Iowan2,
“ Tons of chafe you have unloaded here. But not a single morsel of grain. Not a single word of this addresses the Plenary Power of the President of the United States”
You stated that president had planary power to declassify documents that has never been in dispute. But in order to PROVE he declassified documents it has to be on record and a very specific process must be followed I posted exactly what is required and what Trump would have to show that he indeed declassify documents. He hasn’t proved his claims at all. Saying he declassified something is not proof that it occurred. Evidence must be presented to make that assertion true.
“ Every thing you have posted is a Presidential Executive order.”
No I posted the regulations pertaining to declassification and what is evidence of a declassified document.
“ Each of the executive orders exempts the President and Vice President from complying with any of the EO.”
Those EO’s don’t absolve the president and Vice President of following regulation. All they say is that they give them the power to declassify or classify documents. That doesn’t mean they don’t have to follow procedure. Pay attention. I’m literally giving you exactly what trump would have had to present as evidence that he declassified the documents he claims he did. The EO doesn’t absolve him of that.
No I posted the regulations pertaining to declassification and what is evidence of a declassified document.
Exactly what authority wrote the regulation.
Iowan2,
“ Markings shall be uni- formly and conspicuously applied to leave no doubt about the declassified status of the information and who au- thorized the declassification.
(b) The following markings shall be applied to records, or copies of records, regardless of media:
(1) The word, ‘‘Declassified;’’
(2) The identity of the declassifica- tion authority, by name and position, or by personal identifier, or the title and date of the declassification guide.”
All these are from the requirements for declassification of materials. Trump did NOT have any proof or showed any marked documents designating them as “declassified” and when they were. Trump was lying.
“Ah, but a record must be made that the documents were indeed declassified”
Nope, been through that before.
Also a stupid claim – did the sun not rise before there were humans to record it ?
“Because people asking for the information such as thru FOIA CAN access those documents if they were indeed declassified. ”
Nope, AGAIN JW v NARA – a document classified or not in posession of the former president is outside he domain of NARA and the courts (and FOIA)
“Trump or any of his White House staff has been able to provide any proof that the documents were declassified.”
DOJ/FBI/Media/You have not provided proof they have not. You are alleging a crime – he burden of proof is on you.
You can not even tell us what the Docs are.
“The staff is required to notify the agencies where the classified documents originated that they are no longer classified.”
Nope, Cite law or EO on that. You do not just get to make it up.
“Trump was lying.”
Because you say so ?
“Otherwise he would have easily produced the records showing those documents were properly declassified.”
Not the standard for determining if something is a lie, or even if it is false.
John, again you show your massive pride in your ignorance.
“ Ah, but a record must be made that the documents were indeed declassified”
Nope, been through that before.
No. I posted the exact procedures required to declassify documents. I’ll post them again and the requirements for automatic declassification.
“ 2001.25 Declassification markings.
(a) General. A uniform security clas- sification system requires that stand- ard markings be applied to declassified information. Except in extraordinary circumstances, or as approved by the Director of ISOO, the marking of de- classified information shall not deviate from the following prescribed formats. If declassification markings cannot be affixed to specific information or mate- rials, the originator shall provide hold- ers or recipients of the information with written instructions for marking the information. Markings shall be uni- formly and conspicuously applied to leave no doubt about the declassified status of the information and who au- thorized the declassification.
(b) The following markings shall be applied to records, or copies of records, regardless of media:
(1) The word, ‘‘Declassified;’’
(2) The identity of the declassifica- tion authority, by name and position, or by personal identifier, or the title and date of the declassification guide. If the identity of the declassification authority must be protected, a per- sonal identifier may be used or the in- formation may be retained in agency files.
(3) The date of declassification; and
(4) The overall classification mark- ings that appear on the cover page or first page shall be lined with an ‘‘X’’ or straight line.”
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2010-title32-vol6/pdf/CFR-2010-title32-vol6-part2001.pdf
“ 2001.30 Automatic declassification.
(a) General. All departments and agencies that have original classifica- tion authority or previously had origi- nal classification authority, or main- tain records determined to be perma- nently valuable that contain classified national security information, shall comply with the automatic declas- sification provisions of the Order. All agencies with original classification authority shall cooperate with NARA in managing automatic declassifica- tion of accessioned Federal records, presidential papers and records, and do- nated historical materials under the control of the Archivist.
(b) Presidential papers, materials, and records. The Archivist shall establish procedures for the declassification of presidential, vice-presidential, or White House materials transferred to the legal custody of NARA or main- tained in the presidential libraries. c) Classified information in the custody of contractors, licensees, certificate hold- ers, or grantees. Pursuant to the provi- sions of the National Industrial Secu- rity Program, agencies must provide security classification/declassification guidance to such entities or individuals who possess classified information. Agencies must also determine if classi- fied Federal records are held by such entities or individuals, and if so, whether they are permanent records of historical value and thus subject to section 3.3 of the Order. Until such a determination has been made by an ap- propriate agency official, such records shall not be subject to automatic de- classification, or destroyed, and shall be safeguarded in accordance with the most recent security classification/de- classification guidance provided by the agency.“
Note this part, “ Until such a determination has been made by an ap- propriate agency official, such records shall not be subject to automatic de- classification, or destroyed, and shall be safeguarded in accordance with the most recent security classification/de- classification guidance provided by the agency.”
“ Directive.
§2001.48 Loss, possible compromise or unauthorized disclosure.
(a) General. Any person who has knowledge that classified information has been or may have been lost, pos- sibly compromised or disclosed to an unauthorized person(s) shall imme- diately report the circumstances to an official designated for this purpose.
“ The staff is required to notify the agencies where the classified documents originated that they are no longer classified.”
Nope, Cite law or EO on that. You do not just get to make it up.”
See the above link to the rules. It’s all there.
“ Trump was lying.”
Because you say so ?”
No because it was prove he did. The stated certification presented to the FBI saying all documents were turned over. That was not true.
Trump didn’t declassify any documents. He has not shown still any proof that he did. The requirements are clearly spelled out in the rules above.
“ Otherwise he would have easily produced the records showing those documents were properly declassified.”
Not the standard for determining if something is a lie, or even if it is false.”
It is certainly the standard. You make a claim, you have to provide proof of said claim. Trump has never been able to assert he did in court. Only in the public sphere where he doesn’t have to prove his claim. Again, see the actual rules regarding declassification above. It’s all there for you to read in it’s entirety.
“John, again you show your massive pride in your ignorance.”
Nope.
We have been through all of this before.
You are obviously wrong.
It has been pointed out to you POINT BY POINT.
You are the one actually ignorant here.
You keep citing things that CAN NOT APPLY to the president.
And that the Courts have properly found that.
If you do not like that – Go to court.
Just as JW did – you too could have sued NARA to go after Trump documents. Classifed or not.
You didn;t
NARA didn;’t
No one did.
They did’nt because they would have lost.
Change the constitution if you do not like it.
No. I posted the exact procedures required to declassify documents.
What authority established the procedures?
Svelaz does not grasp that the exact procedure to declassify a document is whatever the president says the exact procedure is.
“ DOJ/FBI/Media/You have not provided proof they have not. You are alleging a crime – he burden of proof is on you.”
Nope. Trump is making a CLAIM that he declassified those documents and all of them are his private property. He went to court which was a CIVIL case. The burden of proof is on him. He is the one that needs to prove his claim. When he gets indicted THEN it’s up to DOJ/FBI to prove their claims.
Trump did file a Civil case – and in THAT case the burden would have been on him – But the 11th appelate killed the case on JUrisdictional grounds.
What is pending is a possible criminal case. – The Burden of proof is on YOU/DOJ/FBI and the standard is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
That is what you must meet for a crime.
You can’t.
“Trump did file a Civil case – and in THAT case the burden would have been on him – But the 11th appelate killed the case on JUrisdictional grounds.”
He had plenty of opportunities to prove his claim when he was before Judge Cannon. When he actually was ordered to prove his claim by the special master Trump RAN to Cannon to stop it. Why? Because he was’t able to prove his claims. The 11th circuit ended the case because the DOJ proved that Trump didn’t have evidence that the documents he wanted were his sand judge Cannon had no authority to intervene on trump’s behalf.
“What is pending is a possible criminal case. – The Burden of proof is on YOU/DOJ/FBI and the standard is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.
That is what you must meet for a crime.
You can’t.”
I can’t. BUT the DOJ can. They have all the documents the gathered from MAL. They have video from MAL CCTV’s. They have certificates of statement saying they handed over everything and that they diligently looked everywhere. They have witness accounts. They have a lot they still have not made public. Trump is in bigger trouble than Biden and Pence.
“He had plenty of opportunities to prove his claim when he was before Judge Cannon.”
No they were still debating the procedure and time line.
“When he actually was ordered to prove his claim by the special master Trump RAN to Cannon to stop it.”
Of course he did – Special MAsters work for the Court – they can not Order anything.
Further Dearry’s order was unconstitutional. Each party in litigation gets to decide how they make their case.
Dearry BTW was also exceeding the authority given to him By Cannon – you do not seem to get Courts are not required to appoint a Special master. They do so as a convienience to themselves, and to reduce the risk they might be asked to recuse themselves because in the process of reviewing documents to determine what is and is not subject to the Warrant, they may see something that is not subject but predjucies them.
The ONLY role the Special Master serves is to determine what is and is not subject to the warrant.
And their decisions are not even close to final.
“Why? Because he was’t able to prove his claims.”
No Because Deary had gone out of scope.
It is called due process.
Cannon brought him back in line easily.
I would note that Trump is not required EVER to prove his claim that the documents are his.
And certainly not at the demand of a special master.
It is highly unlikely Trump would have addressed the claim that classified docs were his had he had the chance in Front of Cannon.
While technically a decision by Cannon against him would not have precluded raising the same claim in a criminal process later and in theory winning – the standard of proof is completely different and the party with the burden of proof would reverse.
There is no criminal defense attorney in the world that would have suggested making the claim in civil court, where if you lose you will make it harder to win in Criminal court. Always make your claim where the burdrn is on the other party.
But that is my read of the Tea leaves and Trump and his lawyers were not in sync. And Trump often choses political benefits over personal risk.
So he might have pushed his lawyers to make the cases in front of Cannon – but certainly not Deary.
Deary’s job was just to Sort the material into I beleive 5 groups. And where DOJ and Trump agreed to recomend to Cannon how to proceede.
I would note that 3 of the 5 groups with near certainty would have with near certainty been returned to trump and they made up 90% of what was taken.
The primary purpose of the Trump law suit was to deny DOJ Trump’s personal material that had nothing to do with anything.
The secondary purpose was political – to show the world he was putting up a fight.
“The 11th circuit ended the case because the DOJ proved that Trump didn’t have evidence that the documents he wanted were his”
Nope – Cannon is the 11th circuit trial court. As to your claim the 11th Cir Ct of appeals itself does not have jurisdiction on the question YOU claim it decided until AFTER Cannon has made a final ruling.
You do not understand judicial processes.
The 11th appellate decided that the Courts – not Cannon specifically – had no jurisdiction – that is Error.
“Trump is in bigger trouble than Biden and Pence.”
Not even close.
In order from most egregious to least.
Clinton,
Biden
Pence
Trump.
Only Trump has a claim of ownership
Only Trump has a claim of Declassification.
Only Trump’s documents were found in his SCIF and Presidential Office.
These are all relevant to whether A Crime occured.
Every single claim you make regarding Biden and Pence is a mitagating factor for a person who has already admitted to a crime.
And Pence is in the best position there – because he has a strong argument that he did not and could not possibly know that he had classified documents. And that the documents were not moved – which is a separate crime, once they were delivered to him – Likely by GSA.
You are correct there is alot we do not know.
But the probability is that what we do not know Favors Trump.
While what we do not know disfavors Biden.
The very same factors play differently for Trump and Biden.
If Trump moved the Doc’s personally to MAL – they are declassified.
Biden needs an Aide to have done so – because his Docs are not declassified, and he needs to prove he never saw them – Ever.
Because if he saw them at anytime from jan 20, 2017 to really the present, he was obligated to deal with them immediately – regardless of who transfered them.
Let me repeat – Biden has to convice us all that he never – not once saw any of these docs over many years.
Even though they were moved multiple times.
Trump just has to cite JW v. NARA over and over.
As well as Navy V. Egan.
John B Say.. WHY do you bother trying to discuss Anything rationally with the nonsense, i.e., fabricating trolling & delusional dumping, here….. ‘Svelaz’ is obvious… Trolls will continue to spread gobbledeegook no matter what you say…… and all this does is clutter the forum so it is difficult for others to get to what great commentators such as yourself .have to say…..
I understand the frustration.
I often wonder when pointing out to Svelaz for the 20th time – that the HOLDING in JW v. NARA is the current state of the law,
not the PRA itself, not his guesses about Dicta, what the point of repeating again is.
At the same time – the audience is NOT Svelaz or GiGi.
And unrebutted bogus claims often are beleived.
At this time I wonder if I can program ChatGPT to automatically respond to svelaz – as the process is pretty much rote,
and all that is needed is good natural language processing.
Actually, I like that John responds to Svelaz because his replies are always informative and prove that logic will win out.
Svelaz likes to spew things based upon very limited knowledge, idle conjecture, talking points, and navel lint. John always cleans the lint out.
They are getting boring – Because Svelaz continues to make exactly the same arguments.
I frequently try to make different arguments – generally the more correct position has multiple different valid arguments to support it.
That he has the power to declassify does not imply that he did declassify them, and classified materials are subject to the PRA either way.
“That he has the power to declassify does not imply that he did declassify “
He said he did and he had the right to declassify. There is no evidence Trump did anything wrong so that one should question his word. He kept the records securely.
Biden on the other hand has continuously lied and the FBI let Biden’s lawyers indirectly destroy evidence. Biden had no right to the documents and it appears (not proven, but appears) his son may have looked through many of those documents and sold them to foreign interests. The evidence is there. The checks exist. The money flow has been noted. All sorts of statements implicating Biden family criminality have been made and one Biden family partner is in jail.
When will you cease soiling yourself with BS?
“ He said he did and he had the right to declassify. There is no evidence Trump did anything wrong so that one should question his word. He kept the records securely.”
His word WAS questioned when he was found to be lying and obstructing the FBI. If he had declassified documents they were required to be marked “declassified” and recorded when they were and who order it. Trump didn’t say he did in court because he would have had to prove it. In public he could lie about declassifying documents without getting in trouble.
“ Biden on the other hand has continuously lied and the FBI let Biden’s lawyers indirectly destroy evidence. Biden had no right to the documents and it appears (not proven, but appears) his son may have looked through many of those documents and sold them to foreign interests. The evidence is there.”
And still you cannot provide that evidence. You’re lying more than Biden is.
Evidence has been provided including checks that have been followed and end up in the Biden crime family’s bank accounts, memorandums, Hunter’s laptop that you still don’t understand and testimony that you still don’t understand. That is an incomplete list but you will say nothing exists or I haven’t presented those things before.
I have proven that you lie linking to your denials and other links demonstrating that you are a liar. The only alternative is that you are severely impaired mentally and stupid. Choose one or the other or choose both.
You keep saying “evidence” but still don’t provide any. Saying there are checks that have been followed is not evidence. That’s hearsay on your part. What do these alleged checks prove? Do they show intent? What is the evidence man? Checks ending up at family bank accounts is not a crime. That’s how people get money every day.
You have not proven squat. All you have is insults and ignorance. Show us this evidence you speak of. Show how they are a crime or that they are illegal. What statutes do they violate?
You are a liar. Many have provided reports and documents proving exactly what I say. Shall we attribute your inability to remember due to your dishonesty, lack of morals, or intelligence?
“All you have is insults”
You insult everyone on the blog with your dishonesty and sea lionizing. The problem with most conservatives is they are too polite to respond in kind. All should be unafraid to call you what you are. That inability is why so many Rinos are in Congress, and we have to deal with the trash who are ruining our country.
“ You are a liar. Many have provided reports and documents proving exactly what I say. Shall we attribute your inability to remember due to your dishonesty, lack of morals, or intelligence?”
Who are these “many”? You still can’t provide the evidence. Saying others provided evidence is not providing evidence. YOU should be able to post it. Not those fictional “many”.
All you have are insults and no argument.
We have already proven you are a liar. I won’t ever spend time with you again trying to help you out.
https://jonathanturley.org/2022/01/21/the-other-big-lie-democrats-fuel-doubts-over-the-legitimacy-of-the-coming-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-2153325
Svelaz writes: “Again, you provided no documentation at all. You still haven’t. You “don’t feel obligated” because you never provided them in the first place and you can’t find it. You’re just covering for your BS claim.”
Here are a couple of locations where I mentioned the address of the FDA report. This proves you don’t know what you are talking about.
In the first one, I copied your statement, which is what is being argued about and is completely wrong,
You said: “All the current vaccines have been granted full approval. ”
Below is one of the many FDA postings I made. I believe others have posted FDA sites as well
https://jonathanturley.org/2022/01/03/new-york-announces-that-scarce-covid-19-treatments-will-be-prioritized-for-non-white-patients/comment-page-1/#comment-2148321
In the second of the posts, I showed one of the reasons Pfizer might like this legal distinction.
jonathanturley.org/2022/01/03/new-york-announces-that-scarce-covid-19-treatments-will-be-prioritized-for-non-white-patients/comment-page-3/#comment-2148317
I posted other things from the FDA with their addresses, and much of what I said was pure quotes from the FDA.
This proves you to be what everyone knows you to be. You were wrong again, and it isn’t just about Covid. You have been proven wrong repeatedly on a multiplicity of subjects where proof has been provided. You deny the truth and the proof provided even when it is on the same official papers you have posted.
That he has the power to declassify does not imply that he did declassify them, and classified materials are subject to the PRA either way.
Who exactly is going to mediate the conflict between classified/ declassified?
The PRA is civil law. The DoJ has not jurisdiction.
What you claim are doors to use to pursue crimminal charges, are actually solid walls with no way to pass through.
“ The PRA is civil law. The DoJ has not jurisdiction.”
If you have read the PRA it gives NARA the authority to notify the DOJ on matters of retrieval and compliance with the PRA’s requirements. What I’m pointing out is what the law requires a law that was passed by congress in the wake of Nixon’s crime of trying to destroy presidential records.
“ Who exactly is going to mediate the conflict between classified/ declassified?”
The courts. If Trump makes a claim that he declassified documents it’s his burden to prove that he did. Just saying he did is not enough there still has to be a record that the documents he claims were indeed declassified.
. If Trump makes a claim that he declassified documents it’s his burden to prove that he did. Just saying he did is not enough there still has to be a record that the documents he claims were indeed declassified.
Now you slid into retard territory.
Step one. DoJ Indicts DJT, on named charges. Mis handling of classified documents.
Step two. DJT stands to make a plea of not Guilty. .
Thats the first two steps. Now a judge can accept pleadings.
Step three. DJT asks for a dismissal of charges due to the fact everything had been declassified.
Step four. The judge asks the DoJ to show proof the documents are classified.
Step five. The DoJ makes all the claims Svelaz just made,
Step six. DJT repeats that all the documents are declassified and the DoJ has no evidence to prove otherwise
Step seven. The Judge throws out all the evidence gathered during an unconstitutional search.
Step eight. The DoJ is forced to drop all charges.
“DoJ Indicts DJT, on named charges. Mis handling of classified documents.”
But those aren’t the crimes in the warrant and aren’t likely to be the charges.
The DOJ has jurisdiction with respect to the alleged crimes, none of which hinge on whether the documents are classified vs declassified.
“That’s a false certification that all documents with classified markings had been returned to the government and Trump was no longer in possession.” please explain how it is false
“And they also haven’t searched Bedminster, Trump Tower, and other Trump properties” but there is no indication that any records were maintained there. Meanwhile Trump had a vault created at Mar-a-lago where the documents were maintained. don’t forget that it was the FBI that scattered documents and folders on the floor and took photos which they released in an effort to prove that Trump was messy. Anyone with at least 2 functioning neurons knows that Trump was a neatnik
Way too many people on the left do not have two functioning neurons.
“Any and all responsive documents accompany this certification” was false because Trump kept a lot of the responsive documents, as is clear from the evidence seized in the August search.
If someone thinks they should be holding any documents then let them go to court like they should have done in the first place.
They DID go to court. That’s where they got the subpoena from. They had evidence that Trump had documents that were not supposed to be in his possession. He had 60 days to comply and he did at the very last minute. When they found out not all documents were turned over they went to court again, this time to get a search warrant for the rest of the documents.
Trump had plenty of opportunities to comply and cooperate. He had 18 months. He had no excuse after being served with a warrant.
They DID go to court. That’s where they got the subpoena from.
No, the Govt got a search warrant. A search warrant seeks to gather specific items, in specific locations to use as evidence prosecuting a crime. Ownership is not a consideration.
The NARA should have filed a subpoena for the exact material the wanted, and if Trump refused, they could have gotten a court order to enforce the subpoena. A judge would have ordered both parties to submit legal briefs supporting their position. A judge would have handed down a ruling.
This is the step Biden/Garland skipped. Knowing they had no legal standing.
Iowan2,
“ The NARA should have filed a subpoena for the exact material the wanted, and if Trump refused, they could have gotten a court order to enforce the subpoena.”
They did that. That’s why Trump was forced to hand back documents before the warrant was issued. His lawyers signed a certificate stating that they turned over all documents requested by the subpoena and that they diligently searched everywhere for more. NARA and the FBI found out that was not true and they got a warrant for the rest. LYING to the FBI when highly classified documents are involved is a crime.
“ No, the Govt got a search warrant. A search warrant seeks to gather specific items, in specific locations to use as evidence prosecuting a crime.”
They did have specific locations and specific documents noted in the warrant. They knew because a whistleblower informed the FBI. The search PROVED their information was accurate.
“ A judge would have ordered both parties to submit legal briefs supporting their position. A judge would have handed down a ruling.
This is the step Biden/Garland skipped. Knowing they had no legal standing.”
The judge DID order both parties to submit legal briefs. Trump’s lawyers famously submitted one of the worst motions to dismiss ever. Biden/Garland didn’t skip this step. They had probable cause and they had enough evidence to prove to a judge that Trump lied to the FBI and that he still had documents in his possession.
They did that. That’s why Trump was forced to hand back documents before the warrant was issued,
There was NO FORCE. Trump negotiated a solution agreed to by both parties. That included handing over agreed to documents, or maybe in some cases, copies of documents.
Biden Garland breached the agreement by getting a warrant and sending armed agents to ransack his wife’s underwear drawer.
Trump operated in good faith. IF the NARA wanted more material, Trump would have sat down and negotiated some more. He was denied that opportunity.
Are you so ignorant you don’t understand what is meant by going to court and letting a judge decide who the documents belong to? Apparently you are.
“They had evidence that Trump had documents that were not supposed to be in his possession.”
Assuming what you say is correct. That means they go to court to have a judge make that decision. They didn’t. Are you unable to understand that before a raid a judge has to rule? Do you now know the difference between a subpoena and a judge ruling where both parties state their respective cases?
You don’t have the fact.
You don’t have the knowledge.
You don’t have the intelligence.
“ That’s a false certification that all documents with classified markings had been returned to the government and Trump was no longer in possession.” please explain how it is false…”
Because during the search they FOUND MORE DOCUMENTS including highly classified TS/SCI documents. That was AFTER the certification stating they turned over all the documents and that they diligently searched for more. There’s even a picture of those documents as evidence that the certification was indeed false.
“And they also haven’t searched Bedminster, Trump Tower, and other Trump properties” but there is no indication that any records were maintained there. “
Because they found out Trump lied in the MAL certification there is ample reason he stored more in those locations. Turley claims other Biden properties need to be searched because they found more in multiple properties. The same needs to be said of Trump because he has a much more serious history of obstruction and lying about keeping documents.
“ Meanwhile Trump had a vault created at Mar-a-lago where the documents were maintained.”
He had one safe in his office. Multiple documents were found in an unsecured storage room prior to the FBI telling Trump to secure it. TS/SCI documents were found in an unlocked drawer in his desk mixed with other personal papers that did not meet the storage requirements. MAL’s SCIF designation was no longer active when he ceased to be president when he was barred from getting national security briefings. Nobody said he was messy. What he was was careless with very sensitive information. And the picture was taken to show that he LIED on the certification attesting that they diligently searched for more documents and that they turned in all of them. Obviously that was not true.
Thereis no evidence that Trump did anything wrong even after 6 years with near continuous investigations.
There is tremendous evidence linking Biden to selling America down the drain through Hunter and others and everything possible was done to protect Biden. As Senator and VP he had no right to classified documents nor the ability to declassify all documents. We have trails of dollars going to the Biden family and records that appear to possibly been sold to foreign actors. One of Hunter’s partners is already in jail.
The BS never stops when ATS is around.
“ Thereis no evidence that Trump did anything wrong even after 6 years with near continuous investigations.”
Being willfully ignorant must be exhausting. There is evidence. A search warrant produced evidence of obstruction and lying to the FBI. Both are federal crimes. He refused to cooperate for nearly two years. What he did was indeed wrong. Biden and Pence fully cooperated AND turned over documents to the proper authorities that is the right thing to do. Not what Trump did.
“ As Senator and VP he had no right to classified documents nor the ability to declassify all documents. ”
That BS has been debunked multiple times on this blog. It’s pretty clear you’re running on full on ignorance.
“Being willfully ignorant must be exhausting.”
You must know that from personal experience.
“There is evidence.”
Tell us the evidence. What was the nature of the obstruction that is criminal and requires immediate action rather than the use of the courts?
“Both are federal crimes.”
“obstruction” I can obstruct access to a toilet so no one slips. Is that a federal crime. You are using words and concepts incorrectly. That is a sign not of ignorance but of lack of intelligence.
“lying to the FBI.” Tell us the lie. Are you a fool as well?
Biden didn’t cooperate but Pence did. However, let’s stick to Trump and the ignorance spewing from your mouth.
“That BS has been debunked multiple times on this blog.”
You are now arguing that as a Senator Biden could have classified material outside of a skiff and open for all to see. You don’t know what you are talking about. You have zero credibility.
. A search warrant produced evidence of obstruction and lying to the FBI
That’s the FBI story. We have history proving FBI made false statements in order to persecute President Trump
‘After the midterms’ says it all to me. Don’t tell me our last couple of elections didn’t stink to high heaven, on many fronts. It’s pretty clear the Dems already consider themselves to be our rulers, and we’d better just suck it up. It’s becoming increasingly clear they all consider themselves ideological Godheads, too. A similar situation did not end well for the Spanish Inquisition.
In the first five comments three of them are from Svelaz, this is a version of the heckler’s veto. Svelaz and Anonymous just keep trying to “shout” down the rest of us that enjoy the columns and the ensuing comments made by people trying to discuss the issue at hand logically. The two of them just want to dominate the site, force others to abandon the argument and to go away.
This is how people would act if they were getting paid by Ron Klaine and the Democrats, were working for the FBI or were just contrarian oddballs.
That’s one reason I’ve begun to comment more. I have no doubt that a couple of the trolls are paid – no question. My comments may at times be less insightful, but it is absolutely accurate that these individuals attempt to ratio the site, everyday, and it’s an unavoidable reality on the modern www.
It’s what turley always promotes James. It’s the whole point of free speech. Your choice to comment more to ‘counter’ my comments or anonymous is exactly what Turley supports. Hullbobby seems to be alarmed at the fact that there is such a thing as discourse on a blog dedicated to…free speech.
HullBobby and James,
I agree.
Most of the time their comments look more like cut and paste from talking points on another blog. Looks like a disjointed mess, not worth reading. Just scroll past.
Though as I do not read or watch MSM, their comments, the few times I take to read them, have provided insight into their woke leftist mindset.
After which, I feel the need to bathe.
Farmer,
I’m not sure how others follow the blog, but I receive an email that JT has a new post. I’ll read the post and if necessary the links he provides. Then I read the comments. When I initially started to follow this blog, I read all of them and then replied without considering who I was replying to. It took me awhile, a long while, to learn a few on here have no purpose other than to disrupt the blog. Others are so demoralized (Bezmenov), they wouldn’t admit water was a liquid even as they were drinking it. I would get email notifications for responses and read them all. I was learning not to respond. Now, I no longer read the comment I receive in the email from these folks.
Though as I do not read or watch MSM, their comments, the few times I take to read them, have provided insight into their woke leftist mindset.
😃 That comment reminded me of a movie quote from As Good As It Gets. Jack Nicholson’s character is asked how he writes women so well. He replies: I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability.
So how should we understand the woke leftist mindset? Think of a liberal and then take away reason, logic and accountability.
OLLY,
Well said.
Yeah, I just scroll past them.
Great movie, and good sound track!
Well, if they are getting paid, then it will be because it’s effective.
The best way to prove it isn’t effective is to completely ignore them.
Hullbobby, hecklers veto? LOL! A hecklers veto is when law enforcement preemptively shuts down a speaker for fear there could be violence or incitement of violence.
Posting multiple lust which YOU do as well is what this forum allows. If I have multiple opinions about what Turley has been saying I CAN say as much as I want. Nobody is trying to “shout you down”. It’s exactly what Turley always promotes when it comes to free speech. Using MORE speech to counter bad speech or opposition to an issue. You’re welcome ignore me anytime. Nobody is forcing you to read my posts. Being a whiner is certainly your prerogative and I have no complaint. it’s amazing that you still don’t seem to get the whole concept of what free speech is and what this blog is about. There are multiple posters of the conservative variety that post just as much as I do and “dominate” the conversation. That’s often called a discussion. Again, feel free to whine as much as you like, you’re entitled to it. Whine away and I’ll keep exercising my right to speak.
The FBI allowed uncleared private counsel to tread all over these scenes, creating a nightmare of chain of custody.
The chain-of-custody failure wasn’t created by the FBI; extended for sure, but look first at whoever had the controlling authority at the time these documents came into existence.
We should be more concerned about what information these documents held and who had access to that information. And was that information used in anyway to harm our national security and/or for personal gain.
Once the SAR records are released and Hunter’s laptop is finally reconciled with them, I have no doubt we will see that Biden Inc. were (are) foreign agents.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/03/31/how-hunter-bidens-interests-overlapped-with-banned-ukrainian-oligarch/
The FBI also allowed uncleared private counsel in Trump and Pence’s case. Turley slightly acknowledges this.
An ancient proverb says that sometimes a solution may be found in the problem. The FBI’s sloppiness in the conduct of its investigation, whether by accident or design, makes both cases against Trump and Biden unprosecutable as to the sole basis of mishandling charges. Should additional evidence be established that the classified information was given away or stored unproperly, then we might have a very different fact pattern but even here there will be serious issues of chain of custody of such evidence. The solution? Bad report cards for Trump and Biden and Pence and anyone else who takes classified info away from where it is supposed to be. Then, Congress should craft legislation that clarifies the existing statutes, clearly states the law for ex-officials, codifies things like how and when a president may declassify something, and better defines the difference between reckless and careless to cover things like Hillary Clinton’s email mess. Absent potential criminal charges related to Biden’s material being given away or sold, this should effectively end the matter for all. With scandals resolved, let’s move full speed ahead toward 2024 elections and let the people be heard!
Bad report cards for Trump and Biden and Pence and anyone else who takes classified info away from where it is supposed to be.
Trump is the only one with a legal, constitutional path, to all the material in his possession.
“ Trump is the only one with a legal, constitutional path, to all the material in his possession.”
Trump ceased being president the moment he left the White House. He had no legal or constitutional right to possess classified documents and take them home. Also the PRA makes the majority of documents he took government property. Biden barred trump from getting highly classified national security briefings because he couldn’t be trusted with classified information. His SCIF and security clearance was no longer active meaning any classified material was illegally in his possession.
Trump ceased being president the moment he left the White House. He had no legal or constitutional right to possess classified documents and take them home. Also the PRA makes the majority of documents he took government property.
You repeat the same thing and you NEVER provide evidence to support you claim.
Notice I said ‘pathway’ . To contradict me, you need to prove the pathway does not exist.
2 years and no grand jury, no indictments, no charges…no accusations.
We have negotiations between National Archives over what is personal and what is PRA. The entirety of negotiation takes place inside the Constitutional jurisdiction of the Executive Branch.
The wheels of justice grind slowly.
“Trump ceased being president the moment he left the White House.”
No he ceased being president the moment Biden completed the oath of office.
“He had no legal or constitutional right to possess classified documents and take them home.”
As president he did – including ordering them declassified and/or moved to MAL.
And/Or like Clinton he could just put them in his sock drawer.
Regardless, unless he snuck back to the WH on Jan 21, 2021 anything he took from the WH is:
His property.
Declassified.
If not declassified – still legally his to posses.
“Also the PRA makes the majority of documents he took government property.”
Been through this many times – your absolutely wrong. and can not read.
Please review the holding in JW v. NARA AGAIN.
“Biden barred trump from getting highly classified national security briefings”
As is his power as president to do.
“because he couldn’t be trusted with classified information.”
Why is irrelevant and just your mind reading.
He as likely did it for spite.
“His SCIF and security clearance was no longer active meaning any classified material was illegally in his possession.”
False. And infact the opposite is true.
If Biden revoked Trump’s security clearance While Trump was in possession of actual classified documents,
Then Biden declassified the documents.
When ANY president directs that classified documents end up in the possession of someone uncleared to have them,
The documents become declassified.
If Biden hands top secret information to a Russian Ambassador – that information is now declassified.
If Biden had actually completely revoked Trumps security clearance – then Bide declassified any documents in Trump’s posession.
If Biden de-authorized Trump’s SCIF while it contained classified documents, Biden Declassified those documents.
This is a stupid game you are playing that keeps blowing up in your face.
The fact is that Biden denied Trump access to the PDB – allegedly.
He did not revoke his security clearance. He can not do so without informing Trump. Or more accurately you will never succeed in convicting someone of violagting the espionage act because their clearance was revoked underneath them without their knowledge.
Crimes are ACTS.
You can not create a crime by Trump, through the Actions of Others.
>>”Trump ceased being president the moment he left the White House.”
>”No he ceased being president the moment Biden completed the oath of office.”
This argument has continued repeatedly. It shows that Svelaz can copy and Paste but doesn’t understand what is being said. He doesn’t know when Trump ended his Presidency and Biden’s began. He will continue arguing about the obvious, somethin a 5 year-old can understand that he can’t.
The details are not absolutely critical – unless you try to bend them into a pretzel as Svelaz does constantly.
It actually does not matter what moment Trump ceased to be president so long as he either ordered documents moved, started moving the documents or declassified the documents at an instant in time when he was still president.
I do not understand quite exatly what Svelaz is claiming – beyond that such a moment did not exist.
Of course it did. That moment not only existed but was exactly 4 years long.
Also ignored in this nonsense is that We do not know exactly how or when the docs arrived at MAL.
It is not critical with respect to whether Trump did anything wrong, but it is in determing whether they are still classified or not.
If Trump ordered them moved to an insecure location – AT ANY TIME, they are defacto declassified.
Svelaz keeps trying to claim the MAL SCIF is no longer a SCIF.
If that was True at the time Trump order the Docs to MAL – they are declassified.
If the MAL “vault” was a SCIF when Trump ordered them to MAL – arguably they are still Classifed.
If Biden ordered the SCIF “decommissed” while the docs were still in it – Biden defacto declassified them.
Presidents while President can not violate the Espionage act. If they do something that WOULD violate the espionage act – it in all or most cased eitehr declassifies the material, or grants a person clearance – one or the other. But more likely the latter because granting a clearance defacto has more implications.
But these Documents could have been moved months or even years before the End of Trump’s presidency.
There is so much we do not know.
All we know with a reasonable degree of certainty is that they were – with near certainty legally moved from Probably the WH probably directly to the MAL SCIF probably while it was a SCIF.
That is legal. Further once the docs arrive they may continue to be there LEGALLY,
If they are not classified – anything can be done with them.
If they are still classified – they can move arround Trump’s ex-presidential offices.
They SHOULD be returned tot he SCIF if he is not present – but that is not a huge deal so long as they are inside the envelope secured by Secret Service and so long as they are not trivially accessible by someone without a clearance.
If they are still classified Removing them from the secure area – probably violates the Espionage act.
Certainly giving them to a hostile foreign power does.
Putting them in an unsecured garage does.
Moving them to a chinese funded think tank does.
I would note that the question
Are they Trump’s property
And
Are they classified
Appear to be completely independent.
i.e. Based on the implications of ABJ’s JW v NARA ruling – they can BOTH be Clinton’s property and Classified.
ABJ’s holding stated that none of JW’s claims – including that the Tapes contained classified information, would change the outcome.
Clinton’s tapes were his personal property – “because he said so”.
The only thing that would allow NARA or the Courts to overrule the decision of a PResident regarding whether something was Personal Property was if it was NOT WH material, but Agency material – or more accurately material created as a result of the constitutional actions of Congress, NOT the constitutional actions of the President.
“ If Trump ordered them moved to an insecure location – AT ANY TIME, they are defacto declassified.
Svelaz keeps trying to claim the MAL SCIF is no longer a SCIF.”
WRONG. You have not provided any evidence to support your assertion. Simply moving documents does NOT declassify them. That is simply not true. If you disagree PROVE it by posting the relevant statute. You seem so sure of it that you must have read it somewhere.
The MAL SCIF was deactivated when trump left office due to the fact that Biden barred him from getting national security briefings. There was nobody in his staff qualified to run and maintain a SCIF.
“ If Biden ordered the SCIF “decommissed” while the docs were still in it – Biden defacto declassified them.”
NO! Those documents don’t automatically become declassified simply because the room designated as SCIF was decommissioned. What you claim is pure unadulterated BS. Declassification of documents is an entirely separate process that requires them to be marked as “declassified” and record who declassified them and when. Trump has NEVER provided any evidence nor any of his former staff have corroborated his claims.
“ But these Documents could have been moved months or even years before the End of Trump’s presidency.
There is so much we do not know.
All we know with a reasonable degree of certainty is that they were – with near certainty legally moved from Probably the WH probably directly to the MAL SCIF probably while it was a SCIF.”
You don’t know squat. You are jumping from one speculative reason to another. You have no argument.
The JW case has no bearing on Trump’s case. It does NOT supersede the PRA’s requirements and definitions.
The PRA designates presidential records anything RECEIVED from any other agency as part of the president’s job as presidential record. The constitutional actions by congress are merely the creation of the agency under the president’s authority. You’re conflating any agency as a product of congressional action. That’s not how it works. You’re deliberately twisting that rationale to fit your flawed narrative.
I’ll say again. Simply moving documents somewhere else does not automatically declassify them. It’s not a thing. PROVE that assertion by providing the statute that states that. Show it. It’s well within your capacity to do a little research and provide what would support your argument.
Svelaz – this Blog and most people paying attention to Politics have been discussing issues involving the espionage act, national security, and classified information for probably 10 years atleast.
At one time or another ALL the sources for everything I have asserted have been provided.
Often multiple times.
The fact that you either did not review them or could not understand them the first (or 20th) is not my problem.
I have cited with source the WaPo and NYT Articles on defacto declassification – months ago when this all started, with the MAL raid.
I also sourced them years ago – in several fo the many “Trump is violating the espionage act” idiocies during his presidency.
I am NOT going to go to the trouble to look those articles up again.
But even then the discussion of defacto declassification has been floating arround this blog far longer than that.
It was revealed int he midst of the Clinton email scandal that Obama was emailing Clinton classified information – While she was in Russia, over an AOL email account. Obama are president could do that. Clinton as SoS could not.
This was discussed – in the media, by experts, and by me AT THAT TIME.
So you have had innumerable oportunities to learn about how classification works – specifically with regard to the president, and how the president has defacto declassification power. The president can not violate the espionage act – if he could the espionage act would be unconstitutional. Anything that the president does – deliberately or accidentally that would violate the espionage act, either results in declassification, or a grant of a security clearance – and more likely the former than the latter.
This is NOT some Trump specific argument. Nor is it event specific. I have argued – and lots of highly credible sources agree, these points for over a decade. Long before the MAL raid.
I have argued them – with sources, supporting Obama – despite the fact that he was one of the US worst presidents.
The law is the law, the constitution is the constitution. It applies to all presidents equally.
But aside from the WaPo and NYT articles, I have more recently cited REPEATEDLY the JW v. NARA decision – as well as noting that it is one of a whole series of similar cases all consistent with each other despite slightly different issues.
Judge Jackson said that even if she assumed that the Clinton tapes contained classified information, and were a presidential record – even if everything JW claimed was True, she would have to dismiss – Because an Ex-President can take whatever he wants – classified or not, and make it his.
Jackson did not address whether the tapes remain classified. But she was unequivocal that they were President Clinton’s and no one had the authority or power to take them from him – classified or not, and no matter what some parts of the PRA might say.
That is the current state of the caselaw. JW. V. NARA is perfectly on point. There is no issue at all to distinguish Trump’s MAL documents from Clinton’s tapes. Both meet the PRA’s defintion of PResidential not Personal documents. Both include allegedly classified information.
JW V. NARA ALONE tanks your entire argument – every single claim you made.
It also supports every single argument I have made.
But JW V. NARA is not alone in the evidence I have provided you over the months and years on this issue.
You are beating a dead horse.
And you have been given FAR MORE than enough evidence PROOF that you are wrong.
I am not obligated to cite a dozen links every single time you “forget” and make the same stupid arguments over again.
I am not obligated to prove again and again – what I have proven many many many times.
I have noted many times – mostly with Anonymous – that the burden of proof is NOT equal.
And this is a perfect example of why.
Neither I nor anyone else is obligated to prove over and over and over something that was proven days, weeks. months, years ago.
Nor is this just confined to You and me.
Navy vs. Egan was cited – many times, by another poster. I should nto have to repeat it to you.
I am entitled to rely on PROOF by other posters on this blog without myself having to link to something that others have linked to many many times.
This raises another issue – the vast difference in quality between the sources provided by those on the left and the rest of us.
YOU constantly provide sources where some reporter claims that someone else usually unnamed said or saw something.
We almost never know the actual source. We almost never know what they actually said.
But we are expected to accept as true a reporters paraphrase of a remark by an anonymous source.
Conversely you are provided with court cases – some going to SCOTUS, And Actual factual events that we are all aware of and generally agree on the FACTS.
You are also provided with facts,a dn law and assertions and proofs and arguments that are much older than the current controversey.
My view on Trump issues has nothing at all to do with Trump.
It has do do with the facts and the law and the constitution.
And I have applied it the same to Biden or Obama or Bush or Clinton.
My conclusion that the right is less dangerous than the left is the result of applying the same principles and standards to each uniformly all the time.
“There is no issue at all to distinguish Trump’s MAL documents from Clinton’s tapes. Both meet the PRA’s defintion of PResidential not Personal documents. Both include allegedly classified information.”
Wrong. There’s where your failure to understand begins. You’re comparing Clinton’s tapes which he created for a personal project to Trump’s MAL documents which included WH records, and papers related to his JOB intermixed with personal items.
Clinton’s tapes were NOT part of his job as president. The historian he tapped to help him with the project was NOT an official White House historian. JW wanted those tapes and asked NARA for them. But because they were part of a PERSONAL project they did not fall under the definition of WH records therefore NARA was not required to retain custody of them. You have twisted that issue by saying the historian Clinton asked for help was an official White House historian. YOU added that designation without any proof that the historian in question was really the WH’s official historian. He was not.
Trump took hundreds of documents without consulting with NARA which he was supposed to do before he left. This is how NARA knew he took things that he was not supposed to take. NARA knew a lot of those documents were WH records and the PRA clearly says those records are owned by the government. Trump refused to prove that the majority were his personal records, he claimed they were his.
“I am not obligated to cite a dozen links every single time you “forget” and make the same stupid arguments over again.”
I didn’t forget anything. You’re being intentionally obfuscate. Your claim that classified documents are automatically declassified because they are moved to an unsecured location has not been supported by anything you have posted. Nothing. All you have cited are a case law that says nothing to support that claim and citing article II that says nothing to support that claim. You’re intentionally obfuscating your inability to prove that claim because you know it’’s BS.
Your diatribe about the right vs. lett is pure deflection from the fact that your claim has no basis in fact. You have not been able to prove or show it’s true. You have provided a lot of things that do not support you claim John. You have been throwing a lot of facts that are irrelevant in the hope that nobody notices you have no argument.
Svelaz, you clearly have not Read or do not understand the holding in JW. V NARA.
ABJ states that the decisions could not change even if ever JW claim was true,
Those claims include that the Tapes were presidential records – which they obviously are,
And that they contained classified information – which they highly likely did.
ABJ did not decide that the Tapes were not classified.
She did not decide that they were personal.
She EXPLICITLY decided that did not matter.
In FACT there is no difference – not that it matters.
Because the tapes with near certainty are presidential records
Branch was making a historical record – not acting as a reporter interviewing Clinton
Branch is a historian not a reporter.
Mostly he recorded events as they happened – pretty much the definition of a presidential record.
And some of what he recorded was with near certainty classified,
So you are worng – because it does not matter,
And you are wrong because they are the same.
And you do not seem to understand the law.
Judge Jackson was Required by the rules of procedure to presume that every Factual Claim JW had made
was true to Rule on the governments motion to dismiss.
This is an error that you constantly make – it is mildly forgiveable, because the courts themselves are constantly ignoring it in political cases.
When courts decide cases prior to a hearing on the facts, they are required to accept as true all the facts asserted by the non-moving party.
Frequently as in JW v NARA that means the court is deciding Solely based on the constitution or law – not the facts.
ABJ decided that the choices of an outgoing president were not reviewable by the courts and that NARA and the Government had no power or authority to challenge them. And that nothing JW claimed – such as that the tapes were classified or that they were presidential records mattered.
Please quit changing my argument,
A president moving a classified information from a secure situation controlled by govenrment to an insecure situation not controlled by governnment DECLASSIFIES IT.
That is only true of presidents.
Providing the Russian ambassador highly classified information regarding terorist attacks on airlines declassifies that information.
Both WaPo and NTY concurred – years before MAL.
Separately Judge ABJ in JW v. NARA was unequivocal.
If a president takes something from the WH with him as he leaves – it is HIS and neitehr NARA nor the rest of govenrment can get it back,
And it does not matter if it was classified.
There is no Wiggle room in her decision.
Contra the 11th Apelate opn SOME issues – specifically classified information – Presidents ARE DIFFERENT.
Dozens of cases confirm the constitution has established that.
“A president moving a classified information from a secure situation controlled by govenrment to an insecure situation not controlled by governnment DECLASSIFIES IT.”
NO it doesn’t. You have posted “evidence” backing that claim up with nonsense about JW v. NARA that has nothing to do with that claim. You still have not provided anything that supports the claim that Moving classified information from a controlled to uncontrolled situation automatically declassifies it. NOTHING you have posted supports that claim. PROVE IT by citing the statute or law that says what you are claiming.
“Providing the Russian ambassador highly classified information regarding terorist attacks on airlines declassifies that information.”
That’s not equivalent to what you are claiming. SHOWING classified information to someone else does NOT declassify it. It’s still showing classified information to a person only. If what you claim is true then the media would have access to what he showed the ambassador because it’s no longer classified. Obviously the media does NOT have access to that because it’s STILL classified.
“If a president takes something from the WH with him as he leaves – it is HIS and neitehr NARA nor the rest of govenrment can get it back,
And it does not matter if it was classified.”
Nope. The president cannot take anything that is clearly not personal. Presidential records, furniture, busts. Pictures on the wall all of that ARE GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. NARA and the government CAN get that back because it wouldn’t be his property. That’s theft John. NARA thru the PRA notified the DOJ that Trump took records that he did not have the right to take. The PRA is very clear about it. Your justification using “case law” with the JW v. NARA does NOT apply to Trump. You’re trying to conflate two different issues to excuse Trump’s illegal custody of presidential records and classified documents. Your arguments don’t hold up to scrutiny and they don’t support your claims at all. But as usual, PROVE your claim true that moving classified documents from one secure location to an insecure location automatically declassifies them. SHOW the statute or regulation or order that says what you claim. So far you have NOT shown anything supporting your claim. I know you have seems it somewhere if you are so sure of it. Show us where you saw that claim being supported citing the regulation, or law making that true.
Svelaz
The sun will rise tomorow – even if you deny it.
I can not provide proof sufficient for someone who will not accept anything as proof
For someone who force facts, the law, the constitution to fit their desired outcomes.
Even if doing so contradicts their own priors.
I have provided more than enough for those capable of critical thinking.
I have provided caselaw.
Obviously there can be no regulation of law – because we are dealing with something that can not be regulated.
That is the point.
As Navy v Egan asserts, national security powers are constitutionally vested in the president.
Separately laws and regulations are by defintion negative.
They say what you CAN’T do.
Each of us are free to do anything that the law does not say we can not do.
Even presidents.
We are in agreement. Svelaz is incompetent so it is impossible for one to match up his statements so that they make sense. A bunch of people are arguing with a person without intellect and without common sense.
There are so many Svelaz’s
John,
“I can not provide proof sufficient for someone who will not accept anything as proof
For someone who force facts, the law, the constitution to fit their desired outcomes.
Even if doing so contradicts their own priors.
I have provided more than enough for those capable of critical thinking.”
No, you have provided nothing to support that claim. You’re the one trying to force your “evidence” to fit your claims when they clearly don’t. Again, nothing you have cited supports the claim that simply moving classified material from a secure location to an unsecured location automatically declassifies it. You treat it as if it’s an unwritten rule. There’s no such thing. Everything related to handling classified material is spelled out in regulations and law. You have NOT provided any, none, evidence at all despite your claims you have. None of the case law or article II says anything that you claim is allowed. That’s what you continue to fail to demonstrate. Your frustration is borne from the fact that you cannot provide the evidence to support the claim. Your reliance on vague assumptions and speculation is all you have.
“No, you have provided nothing to support that claim. “
This is Svelaz, again doing what he says he doesn’t do. No need to spend time explaining.
—
Svelaz writes: “Again, you provided no documentation at all. You still haven’t. You “don’t feel obligated” because you never provided them in the first place and you can’t find it. You’re just covering for your BS claim.”
Here are a couple of locations where I mentioned the address of the FDA report. This proves you don’t know what you are talking about.
In the first one, I copied your statement, which is what is being argued about and is completely wrong,
You said: “All the current vaccines have been granted full approval. ”
Below is one of the many FDA postings I made. I believe others have posted FDA sites as well
https://jonathanturley.org/2022/01/03/new-york-announces-that-scarce-covid-19-treatments-will-be-prioritized-for-non-white-patients/comment-page-1/#comment-2148321
In the second of the posts, I showed one of the reasons Pfizer might like this legal distinction.
https://jonathanturley.org/2022/01/03/new-york-announces-that-scarce-covid-19-treatments-will-be-prioritized-for-non-white-patients/comment-page-3/#comment-2148317
I posted other things from the FDA with their addresses, and much of what I said was pure quotes from the FDA.
This proves you to be what everyone knows you to be. You were wrong again, and it isn’t just about Covid. You have been proven wrong repeatedly on a multiplicity of subjects where proof has been provided. You deny the truth and the proof provided even when it is on the same official papers you have posted.
jonathanturley.org/2022/01/21/the-other-big-lie-democrats-fuel-doubts-over-the-legitimacy-of-the-coming-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-2153325
—
People can look around that thread and see that Svelaz places his head in the outgoing slot rather than permitting a flow of information into his brain.
Svelaz, this is all hokum and you know it.
You have been provided evidence of all kinds of different things.
You continue to use pretezel logic to bend things as you wish.
The JW V NARA decision is perfectly clear.
You continuously Duck the issue.
ABJ DID NOT CARE about the factors you think are relevant.
Because they have no impact.
She did not decide for the reasons you claim.
She was CLEAR that her decision would not have been different if every single assertion JW made was true.
Such as that the tapes were classifed and obviously presidential.
In fact your claims are not even in her dicta, much less the actual decision.
I will give you that it is possible – though not likely that a higher court could reject the holding in JW. V. NARA.
I think is unlikely because we have a long strng of cases from the 70’s through recently with Govenrment prior presidents WH Docs.
When the Issue is Access – the Government wins.
When the issue is Posession or ownership – the Government loses.
But if DOJ does not like that – they can take this all the way to SCOTUS.
Maybe they will win. I doubt it, but honestly I do not care.
The biggest point that you MISS completely, is that Trump is free to RELY on JW V NARA.
You can not get to a crime when your alleged bad actor’s conduct was legal based on the only available caselaw on the issue.
But Again the DOJ/NARA/Biden Admin have studiously manipulated the legal system to AVOID any actual legal test of ownership.
I would note that just about every president since Carter has had some dispute over ownership of records in their posession.
Not a single instance has gone to court – Clinton did not go to court in JW. V. NARA
JW sought to compell NARA to do what YOU keep claiming is their duty and was shot down.
I would further note that Every president atleast since Carter has claimed to have declassified something just by saying it is Declassified.
No one has ever challenged the President authority to do that before.
You can beleive if you wish that if a case actually went through the courts you MIGHT get the outcome you want.
And you might be right.
But todate no one has been willing to risk going to court and losing.
And again you can not make a crime out of a reasonable claim that has been made repeatedly by prior presidents
That has never been tested in court – even if Trump should lose.
You are wrong and you are miles short from honest debate.
Trump moved classified information into the hands of the russian ambassador.
That declassified it.
I have cited that REPEATEDLY
Trump is NOT the first president to do so.
I would not this is not about “moving”.
It is about changing the state of the classified information from secure under government control to insecure as president.
Moving is one means to accomplish that.
You also miss that while much of the current discussion is over Documents – What is Classified is not Paper it is information.
The president can declassify something just by speaking it in public – as Reagan did regarding Stealth Technology by revealing it at a press conference.
There was no “process”, no regulations were followed. As I understand Reagan’s aides had no idea he was going to do this.
Just as Trump’s aides had no idea Trump was going to share classified information on Terrists with the Russians.
It is entirely possible that neither Reagan nor Trump knew they were going to do as they did until just before they did.
Reagan may have made the decision that telling the Russians that the US had Stealth technology was in the US interests right in the middle of the press conference.
Trump may have realized that providing Russia with the information he had on Terrorists would be useful to the US in the midst of the meeting.
Regardless, these are judgement calls. They are perfectly legitimat judgement calls, and constittionally one and only one person has the power to make them.
I would note – though it has not been accepted legally – and is not part of Obama’s EO, there were claims made during Obama’s administration that other Cabinet and appointed officers had the power of “instant declassification” – essentially that the president had delegated his power to declassify “spur of the moment” as conditions warranted.
Legally I do not think this is valied – the Obama EO does not have “instant declassification” provisions.
That said, A ranking cabinet official CAN make public – or reveal to even an enemy classified information When they beleive that the US’s interests are best served by doing so, and RISK being prosecuted later.
The targeting of US nuclear weapons is as classified as it gets.
But the US has – probably with Biden’s assent been quietly making it clear that we are tracking Putin 24×7 and that He Personally is being targeted. That if a nuclear exchange starts that no matter what else happens Putin will with 100% certainty die in the first few minutes.
That is highly classified information that we ordinarily would not allow anyone without clearance no,
That it is in the US national security interests for Putin to Know.
If there anyone who doubts that if Trump Classified docs were found in his garage and Trump called up NARA and said come pick them up.
And Biden Docs were found in his Ex-VP SCIF and Biden refused to part with them,
That Svelaz would be arguing EXACTLY the opposite of what he is now.
Svelaz’s conclusions about law and fact are driven by his politics. Not the constitution, not the caselaw, not the law, not the facts.
“ If there anyone who doubts that if Trump Classified docs were found in his garage and Trump called up NARA and said come pick them up.
And Biden Docs were found in his Ex-VP SCIF and Biden refused to part with them,
That Svelaz would be arguing EXACTLY the opposite of what he is now.”
Well duh, If Trump did what he was supposed to do there wouldn’t be a scandal. If it was Biden that refused to turn over documents that were not his to keep I would by criticizing Biden.
“ Svelaz’s conclusions about law and fact are driven by his politics. Not the constitution, not the caselaw, not the law, not the facts.”
False. I provided the statutes, regulations, and court rulings to support my arguments you on the other hand provided nothing. The only reason we have been able to argue about the specifics of each case is because I’m the one who brings up the relevant rules and court opinions. YOUR commentary is purely driven by politics hence the lack of any supporting evidence or documentation in your arguments. For example you have yet to show your evidence that Biden ‘decommissioning’ Trump’s SCIF automatically renders classified documents declassified. Support your claim by citing the relevant evidence. Why can’t you show it?
Scelaz – Anything Trump did would be framed as a scandal by you.
It is self evident that your standards vary with the moment and the people involved – not the law.
You tenuously hold on to thoroughly bogus arguments – either to condemn those you do not like or exhonerate those you favor.
Even where both are not logically possible concurently you will bend yourself into a pretzel to do so.
“He had no legal or constitutional right to possess classified documents and take them home.”
As president he did – including ordering them declassified and/or moved to MAL.”
John, No he didn’t he did not declassify any of those documents. If he did there would be a record of the order and the when the process started. Furthermore in order to prove they were indeed declassified they were required to be marked “declassified”. He simply lied after being caught with something he was not supposed to have. Notice that nobody has come forward to support his claim with any evidence. He can claim publicly he did all he wants, but he has not shown that the document are indeed declassified in court where it matters.
“ If Biden had actually completely revoked Trumps security clearance – then Bide declassified any documents in Trump’s posession.
If Biden de-authorized Trump’s SCIF while it contained classified documents, Biden Declassified those documents.”
NO,NO,NO John. That is NOT how it works. Please learn the facts before you spout stupid stuff like that. You have zero proof of what you claim. You have provided no statutes or regulations outlining what you are claiming. None.
If Biden revoked Trump’s security clearance it means he no longer has access or has the legal authority to posses classified documents or even the authority to store them. Biden has to specifically order the declassification of the documents for them to be deemed declassified AND marked as such.
De-authorizing Trump’s SCIF means he no longer has the authority to store or even view classified documents. They don’t magically become declassified because there is SCIF. Declassification of documents requires a whole different process. I posted the rules regarding declassification of documents here explaining exactly what needs to be done to declassify documents. When you come up with stupid $hit like that you only make yourself look very ignorant.
“ The fact is that Biden denied Trump access to the PDB – allegedly.
He did not revoke his security clearance. He can not do so without informing Trump.”
It’s not “allegedly” he’s been officially barred from access to the PDB. Biden could have revoked his security clearance and he does NOT need of inform Trump. Trump would never admit that his security clearance was revoked. He would never admit that Biden cut him off. I would be embarrassing for trump to admit that. His ego would not be able to handle it. If he admitted it he would effectively prove he had no right to the classified documents he claims he declassified.
“ When ANY president directs that classified documents end up in the possession of someone uncleared to have them,
The documents become declassified.”
FALSE. Prove your claim. Show us the statute that says what you claim. I have been supporting my claims. You have not.
“ Also the PRA makes the majority of documents he took government property.”
Been through this many times – your absolutely wrong. and can not read.
Please review the holding in JW v. NARA AGAIN.”
Nope, you’re still wrong on this. The holding does NOT invalidate the PRA. You keep going back to his case which has no relevance to Trump’s argument. The ruling you keep citing in JW v. NARA contradicts your own argument. You keep cherry picking statements made by the court out of context so that they fit your flawed narrative.
The PRA is very clear on who owns the documents in question. Trump has not yet proven his claims are valid and when was presented with an opportunity to do so he balked, for the same reason he made the claim about declassifying documents. HE HAD NO EVIDENCE of his claim. He was lying, it’s a simple as that and you keep making excuses for it by making absurd claims that you cannot backup.
“No he didn’t he did not declassify any of those documents.”
You do not know that, and it is also not relevant.
“If he did there would be a record of the order and the when the process started.”
Nope. Both WaPo and NYT wrote about this during Trump’s presidency.
Trump gave Classified information regarding terrorist polts involving airlines to the Russian ambassador.
Merely giving it to the Russian ambassador declassifies it.
Any action by a president that would violate the Espionage act by any one else,
Defacto declassifies the information.
That is true whether Others make a record of it or not.
While a president can not telepathically declassifiy, there is no requirement of an “order” or even of a record of declassificiation.
“Furthermore in order to prove they were indeed declassified they were required to be marked “declassified”.”
Nope, do you think someone chased down the Russian ambassador to mark the docs he left the WH with “declassified”.
“He simply lied after being caught with something he was not supposed to have.”
This is your beleif. It is not a proven fact.
It is also a highly unlikely claim.
There is no such thing as “something the president is not supposed to have”.
And inarguably the current president has the power to give himself to keep as Ex-president anything that he wishes to have.
There is not reason for a president to steal something, because he can take it legally.
YOU are the one trying to argue the illogical and improbable position.
“Notice that nobody has come forward to support his claim with any evidence.”
No one needs to. Regardless we do not know exactly which documents these are
and several people HAVE come forward to document that Trump on numerous occasions and in various ways declassified documents.
Including atleast twice by Executive order.
Without knowing precisely what documents we are dealing with, it is not possible to determine if there is actually evidence – a record of some kind these docs were declassified.
The most simple example is that if one of these Docs is a a copy of the Cater Page FISA warrant – it has been declassified by Two separate Trump executive orders.
So far the DNI has been stalling for over 6 month “assessing” the risk associated with these Docs.
My guess is that may be because they are Docs that were obviously declassified.
But without knowing what the docs are we can only guess.
I would note that the answer could PROVE the docs are declassified.
But it can not prove they were NOT declassified.
It near certainly is NOT possible to prove they were not declassifed.
“He can claim publicly he did all he wants”
Yes, he can, and that means nothing.
“but he has not shown that the document are indeed declassified in court where it matters.”
Trump has had ZERO ability to do so.
NARA did not go to court.
DOJ did not go to court over the subpeona.
In both cases Trump was in posession of the docs so the burder was on DOJ/NARA
DOJ/FBI got a warrant – an ExParte process that Trump had no opertunity to participate in.
After the Search and Seizure Trump challenged that in Court,
and the 11th Appellate unconstitutionally denied Judge Cannon jurisdiction ending any abilty of Trump to “prove in court where it matters”.
Right now, there is nothing Trump can do – the 11th Appelate court has foreclosed his right to make 4th and 5th amendment claims in Civil court.
Trump will have no further oportunity in Court unless and until the DOJ decides to try to prosecute – which has near zero change of happening.
But should they do so – THEN the Burden of proof – as in all criminal cases would be on DOJ – not Trump.
“NO,NO,NO John. That is NOT how it works.”
Yes, it is exactly how it works.
“Please learn the facts before you spout stupid stuff like that.”
Not a question of Fact, it is a question of law, and mostly a constitutional question.
The president CAN NOT violate the espionage act – it is not possible for the espionage act to be constitutional if it covers the actions of the president. This is the same as that the PRA can not deprive the president of the power to make documents outside the scope of Congress’s powers (like WH Documents) personal property.
Your failure to understand this is the same reason you can not understand Judge Jackson’s decision in JW v. NARA.
“You have zero proof of what you claim.”
I do not need proof, it is the constitutional powers of the president.
“You have provided no statutes or regulations outlining what you are claiming. None.”
The burden here is on YOU, YOU are claiming laws exist that are BOTH constitutional and Constrain the PResidents constitutional executive power. Not only DON’T such laws or regulations exist but they Can’t.
Lets presume that Congress passed a law that said the President was not the comander in Cheif of the Military – would that law be valid ?
Congress’s power over the executive is quite broad. But that breadth is SOLELY because most but not all of what the executive does REQUIRES law from Congress to empower it.
But congress can not make a law that governs the executive with respect to any power that is an executive power, rather than one that the constitutional places with the legislature.
The PRA infringes on the exclusively executive powers of the PResident. The courts resolved that problem by diregarding those parts of the law that infringe on purely executive powers.
If the espionage act applied to the PResident – it would infringe on exclusively executive powers.
Therefore it can not apply to the president.
You are free to try to change the constitution so this conflict does not exist.
I am not opposed to that.
Though that is likely to be extremely difficult, and may likely be completely impossible.
But go ahead and Try.
Congresses power over purely executive powers of the president, is limited to impeachment. Congress can impeach the president for doing things with classified information that they do not like.
That is IT.
“If Biden revoked Trump’s security clearance it means he no longer has access or has the legal authority to posses classified documents or even the authority to store them.”
Correct, therefore by revoking that clearance Biden would have placed those docs in the posession of a person not otherwise allowed to have them,
Therefore they are declassified.
“Biden has to specifically order the declassification of the documents for them to be deemed declassified AND marked as such.”
NOPE. This was settled long before the MAL raid.
It was touched on by the Media during the Clinton scandal when it was revealed that Pres. Obama had been using an AOL account to email clinton classified information. I as well as many Experts and the media, pointed out that while Clinton could not email Obama classified information without violating the espionage act, that Obama was not bound by it, and by emailing the docs to Clinton he declassified them.
The same expert/media/… discussion occured when Trump gave classified information regarding terrorst threats to airlines to the Russian ambassador.
Further several people have come forward noting that in the Oval Trump frequently declassified or changes the classification of Docs so that someone who was president but not allowed access would be allowed to participate in the review and discussion.
While this is reported regarding Trump – it with near certainty happens with every president.
“De-authorizing Trump’s SCIF means he no longer has the authority to store or even view classified documents.”
Nope. Trump’s own clearance is independent of the authorization of the SCIF.
Further The PRESIDENT deauthorizing the SCIF without removing the classified contents declassifies the contents.
Any time any president acts to remove the protection of Classified documents – he defacto declassifis them.
“They don’t magically become declassified because there is SCIF.”
No one says they do.
“Declassification of documents requires a whole different process.”
For everyone except the president.
This shoudl be obvious from the FACT that the president makes the rules for classifiying Documents and for Declassifing documents.
That is a PURELY presidential power that the president can excercise however he wishes.
He can also authorize others to do so, But he can not impose rules on himself or his successors.
That is both logically and constitutionally imposssible.
There are no classification rules that apply to the president – there can not be.
There are no declassification rules that apply to the president – there can not be.
This has repeatedly been covered.
“I posted the rules regarding declassification of documents here explaining exactly what needs to be done to declassify documents.”
I have no idea what you posted. Obama’s EO is the current authoratative rules on classifying and Declassifying.
And Obama’s EO does not apply to the president – whoever they are.
“When you come up with stupid $hit like that you only make yourself look very ignorant.”
The ignorance is yours.
What you are trapped in is the same idiocy of people arguing over whether god can create a rock so heavy that God can not lift it.
Where the power to do something comes from the constitution through the president, the president can not make a rule that applies to himself.
“It’s not “allegedly” he’s been officially barred from access to the PDB.”
That has been reported by the news. When the administration announces that then we KNOW it is true.
The news has reported many things that are false.
“Biden could have revoked his security clearance and he does NOT need of inform Trump.”
Correct, that would proevent Trump from getting anything NEW that is classified.
But without informing Trump you can not make his current posession of classified docs illegal.
Though the conditions in which this might occur would be rare for people other than ex-presidents.
This would be True of ANYONE.
If the president Secretly revoked the CIA directors secutity clearance. The CIA director would not suddenly become a criminal because there were classified Docs in his office or in the Secure safe in his office.
This scenario is highly unlikely – a President is unlikely to revoke the CIA directors security clearance and NOT concurrently fire them.
And there are very few circumstances in which classified documents can be present outside of a government fascility – at the top of the list being Presidents, Ex-presidents, VP’s and Ex-VP’s. It is an absolute necescity for classified documents to go whereever a president goes.
“Trump would never admit that his security clearance was revoked. He would never admit that Biden cut him off. I would be embarrassing for trump to admit that. His ego would not be able to handle it. If he admitted it he would effectively prove he had no right to the classified documents he claims he declassified.”
That is bad mind reading. You would have Said that Trump would not admit that FBI raided MAL – yet as YOU noted Trump made that public.
Trump will make public anything that makes Biden look petty and vindictive.
Trump discussed revoking Brennan’s security clearance.
Ultimate he chose not to, because it would be unusual and look bad.
The same is true of Biden revoking Trump’s.
Why left wing nuts such as yourself would thoughtlessly cheer,
Most people would want a clear explanation.
And absent an excellent one Biden looks vindictive.
Trump is likely to make public anything he thinks Makes Biden look bad.
““ When ANY president directs that classified documents end up in the possession of someone uncleared to have them,
The documents become declassified.”
FALSE.”
True, it is how it MUST work.
AGAIN over the past 10 years this has been addressed int he media multiple times.
And by legal experts.
“Prove your claim. Show us the statute that says what you claim. ”
There can be no law on this – it derives directly from the constitutional powers of the president.
It is specifically because the laws and rules regarding classified information CAN NOT apply to the president.
“I have been supporting my claims”
No you have not, and in the rare instance you have – you engage in tortured readings or you cite things that OBVIOUSLY do not apply.
“Please review the holding in JW v. NARA AGAIN.”
Nope, you’re still wrong on this. The holding does NOT invalidate the PRA.”
Of course it does. The holding can not be correct if the portions of the PRA that you constantly cite are constitutional.
“You keep going back to his case which has no relevance to Trump’s argument. The ruling you keep citing in JW v. NARA contradicts your own argument. You keep cherry picking statements made by the court out of context so that they fit your flawed narrative.”
Citing the HOLDING is not cherry picking, it is the most consequential part of ANY Court oppinion.
If any part of an oppion contradicts the Holding – the HOLDING is the FINAL word.
“The PRA is very clear on who owns the documents in question.”
As is the Caselaw. And the Caselaw Trump’s the PRA.
“Trump has not yet proven his claims are valid and when was presented with an opportunity to do so he balked, for the same reason he made the claim about declassifying documents. HE HAD NO EVIDENCE of his claim. He was lying, it’s a simple as that and you keep making excuses for it by making absurd claims that you cannot backup.”
Trump has not had the opportunity to do so. Your courts denied him that oportunity.
Nor BTW is he obligated to do so at some point that YOU demand.
Trump is free to make his case at whatever point he chooses.
That is how the law works.
You have been wrong about this repeatedly.
At this point you are just LYING.
It is not possible to make YOUR cockamamye claims Work in the real world
No president can limit the powers given to him by the constitution.
He can only control how they are delegated to others.
No Congress can limit the exclusive constitutional powers of the president.
Not by law or any other way.
Further, though you keep playing games, there is NO WAY that you can reconcile JW v NARA with your idiotic positions regarding Trump.
I am tired of quoting the Holding in JW V. NARA.
So I will one more time Summarize.
Jacks’s said that if every single claim JW made – including that the contents of the Tape were classified, and/or that they were OBVIOUSLY a Presidential record as defined by the PRA, If JW was correct on every single argumnt it made
The SAME arguments you make regarding Trump – that NARA, the Courts and the federal govenrmnt STILL had no authority to take the Tapes from Clinton.
If Clinton had classifed Tapes in his Sock Draw – Trump can have them by the Pool at MAL.
“Rep. James Comer (R-Ky.) also says that the National Archives were blocked from putting out a press release about the case — either by the Department of Justice or the White House”
There’s nothing odd about that. It’s standard policy not to make statements on ongoing investigations. Trump’s own document scandal was ongoing for nearly two years before anyone knew about it. It was Trump who ultimately blabbed about it. This is the nature of Turley’s disingenuousness about this whole issue which clearly is about protecting Trump rather than be objective about the facts.
“There are two differences. First, Trump never denied having such material. He insisted that he was allowed to have the files because he considered them unclassified. Second, while the Trump team insists that the FBI was given access to the documents, Trump resisted efforts to turn over all of the documents. Indeed, the FBI has raised a pattern of obstruction and false statements.”
That’s the closest Turley has come to stating the fact that Trump obstructed and lied to the FBI. Trump never disclosed he had classified material. It was only known when a whistleblower notified the FBI Trump had highly classified material in his possession. Trump only claimed to have declassified the material AFTER it was discovered he had it. NARA knew he had some, but they didn’t know the extent of how much he had. It was only after the search that it was learned how much he had and the nature of the classification.
The Trump team refused to let the FBI access to the documents. They only allowed the FBI to look into a room and were told specifically NOT to look into boxes. That’s part of the obstruction charges that are possible. Biden has not shown any pattern of obstruction and false statements. Biden has been fully cooperative and so has VP Pence who also used private counsel to search his properties without the FBI present.
Turley is engaging in pure speculation when he doesn’t show who is reporting what he claims is being reported. The Delaware “trove of documents” has nothing to do with the current issue and Turley knows it. Those documents unlike the classified documents found are NOT the government’s property. The FBI will need a search warrant and probable cause to get one to search the senatorial documents in delaware. The FBI is not causing problems for Hur. They are doing everything by the book and it’s one reason for the slow pace. We have yet to hear Turley’s demands to search Trump’s other properties since he has been the one who has a history of obstruction and hiding documents and refusals to cooperate.
Nothing to see here, Keep moving along, the the Peanut Gallery will be closing soon.
https://scontent-mia3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/325414417_478753577801801_4154074892077845935_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=V0khc5hoyRUAX9FTux_&_nc_ht=scontent-mia3-2.xx&oh=00_AfCv7P_kEYuyZHqQDb8bgYojmIATjfxikPDuyWIkr1IaKw&oe=63E0932C
Damning Trump in no way absolves Biden of very similar charges. The crime is mishandling and removing classified material. All the other folderol claims of who said what, when, etc., or whether this or that person or group obstructed this or that party is secondary to the main event, which remains the same for both Trump and Biden (and Pence). These additional items could be thrown in if the initial big event charge is decided upon. Unless Biden is shown to have improperly stored classified materials in the laptops seized by the FBI or given away, sold, or improperly quoted or restated classified information – all felonies – this matter should end by off-setting penalties against both teams. Let’s wait for the investigations to be finished before declaring a winner.
JJc, Only Trump has the distinction of being the one who deliberately obstructed, obfuscated, and lied to law enforcement (FBI) and refused to cooperate until he had to be subpoenaed. Both Biden and Pence by comparison fully cooperated and promptly turned over documents. Those distinctions will make a huge difference in how charges would be considered.
@JJC: I mostly agree with you. I would only point out:
1. The standard “Unless Biden is shown to have improperly stored classified materials” has already been met, irrespective of digital format
2. Whether Mr. Biden (and/or anyone else wandering around the property like, say, the guy that washes Mr. Biden’s cars) had “given away, sold, or improperly quoted or restated classified information” — or continues to do so — is separate and distinct from point one
3. The outcome of the other investigation was decided weeks in advance of its conception.
The whole investigation of Mr. Trump is a whole-hearted application of finding the crime to fit the man. To quote the Dread Pirate Roberts, “Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.” I’ll leave it for to you to examine the differences between the authority of the President to declassify materials and any other human on the planet.
I think the Prez Records Act should be scrapped ASAP. I don’t like what is being done with it & how it is being used or abused. Anyway, they are classifying too much stuff, and this is getting ridiculous. Finito la comedia!
Good “All Clear”
Now that the Nothing Burger is over We can focus of the Real Violations of the People.
The proliferation of Propaganda by the Democratic Party Administrations & Media to circumvent Our Democracy.
The Funding of such Overt Programs and the Prosecution of the Individuals involved.
Let’s get on with it.
You forgot to take your lithium this morning.
How the turn tables… (insert popcorn eating gif)
“The private searches clearly went through these documents and moved (and potentially organized) material. Despite being given the opportunity to conduct and record the initial searches, the FBI will now have to rely on the accounts of private counsel on how these documents were originally left, including any visible classification markings.”
Hey Turley, news flash. Trump’s lawyers had almost two years to conduct a search of his properties. His private counsel handled documents multiple times too. They could have moved some to other properties as well which the FBI has not searched but his private counsel with no security clearance have supposedly searched. Why didn’t you question those issues?
“For example, to go through the papers, counsel had to handle them, sort them, and stack or box them. That means that the original conditions are lost in determining, for example, if anyone in the vicinity could have seen a telltale bordered classified jacket or whether a classified document was partially or fully outside of a jacket.
The FBI allowed uncleared private counsel to tread all over these scenes, creating a nightmare of chain of custody.”
Again Trump’s own lawyers for nearly two years handled, moved, and had them in unsecured locations BEFORE the FBI was allowed to look where they were stored. Trump refused to let the FBI even look into boxes to see if he had classified documents.
“Reports recently indicated that Biden included classified information in notebooks that were seized in earlier searches. If true, that is a nightmare for investigators because it would require agents to do more than simply look for classified documents with markings at the beginning of paragraphs and tops of pages. They would have to actually read material to determine if Biden incorporated classified material.”
Trump intermingled highly classified material with personal documents and took documents out of folders. The FBI had no problem sifting through the material and they shouldn’t have to with Biden.
If the FBI were to raid Zelensky’s place, would they find more Biden classified documents? Asking for a friend.