It is getting rather difficult to follow the line of logic at the White House on the torture investigation. For months, President Obama has been speaking about his intentions as to any investigation into the torture program. Then, this week, he suddenly declared that he should have no role in such decisions. Then the next day, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs declared that Obama did not want to see a special prosecutor. I discussed this statement last night on this segment of Hardball. In the meantime, it appears that new pictures of detainee will be released — though obviously not the videos of torture that were destroyed by CIA officials to prevent their being used against themselves.
Gibbs flatly ruled out the notion of a special counsel or independent prosecutor: “The lawyers that are involved are plenty capable of determining whether any law has been broken.” He then added curiously that they were not intervening in such decisions when he just ruled out this critical option: “I want to stress that that determination is not going to be made by the president, or the vice president, or anybody that works in the White House, because that’s why many, many, many, many moons ago we created a Department of Justice.”
The notion of the Justice Department investigating itself is absurd in this matter. Both career lawyers and political appointees were involved in these decisions at Justice. Many of these lawyers remain at the Justice Department. Moreover, the failure of other lawyers to object to these decisions may prove potentially embarrassing and a potential source of conflict. There also remains the towering appearance of a conflict of interest which should be enough to compel an appointment of a special prosecutor. Many, many, many, many moon age we created ethical rules that bar government lawyers from working in areas where they have an actual or appearance of a conflict of interest.
I think the release of the torture pictures is part of the laying of the groundwork to rally public opinion in favor of prosecution as was the release of the memos. Nothing happens by coincidence in Washington (or anywhere else, for that matter), and these events are related. We are still a democracy and what better way to silence the critics of prosecution than displaying the vile results for the world to see. It’s a prosecutor’s strategy as old as the trial, and I think it a good one.
This is the first intelligent decision Obama has made yet.
This is the first intelligent decision Obama has made yet. By that I mean he seemed intent on destroying the CIA and our intelligence network with all this harsh interrogation memo releasing garbage.
Now he is going to split the nation even more when he releases the so called harsh interrogation photos as the Taliban rise up in Pakistan, confront us more in Afganistan, more bombs go off in Iraq (Obama’s cut & run strategy at work), and America sees its sons & daughters off to fight and defend America with a CIA that freely tells us that Obama has cut them off at the knees.
Shame on Obama. Shame on all of you for being such jersk about so called harsh interrogation to the point of daily LIES about it and what we did to whom and when and who knew.
As we are Trolling along. I think, I appreciate your original thought this time Troll. I still don’t agree with all you have said. But it is a good thought, you can have an original thought can’t you?
But then what is an original thought other that a sum of all of lifes experiences and the ability to communicate those thoughts in an effective oral and or written communication.
JT, I missed you on Hardball last night. I find Chris Matthews and Pat Buchanan annoying to listen to separately!
I can’t imagine trying to get a word in with the two of them flapping their jaws at the same time.
~PC
p.s. A little astrological ‘wisdom’, Mercury goes Retrograde for 3 weeks – today, I think…!
President Obama’s inconsistencies reveal either his fear, naiveté, inexperience, or—worst of all—that he is a liar and a coward. He is like a guilty defendant on the stand who is groping for a ways to hide his disingenuousness and guilt while being grilled by a competent, but fair, prosecutor.
Just about the time I want to praise Obama for doing the right thing, he backs down or has Mr. Gibbs lie to the American people for him. Is it a prerequisite in the knowledge, skills, and abilities (known in government as KSAs) section on the OPM application form for the job description of White House Press Secretary that you must be good at lying, cover-ups, speaking poorly, being highly unlikeable by the citizenry, and portraying an image of buffoonery?
Mr. Obama, I voted for you, although I am a lifelong conservative Republican, because this country needed an honest leader with integrity and fortitude. Our existence as a free Nation depends on you and if you fail, because you are just another lying politician, then you will disgrace and discredit your race, heritage, and the legal profession, especially the constitutional law specialty. As an untrained, uneducated non-lawyer, I understand the U.S. Constitution better than you do, unless you are in fact an accomplished constitutional scholar who is now simply a corrupt and base liar.
p.s. A little astrological ‘wisdom’, Mercury goes Retrograde for 3 weeks – today, I think…!
—
No, I was mistaken. It’s from May 7 – 30th
- whew! Get those repairs taken care of!
Patty C.
Today’s you will see a Mercury-Neptune clash which can cause miscommunications, fuzzy thinking and travel snafus, especially for Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. This influence is actually a clash between being practical (Mercury in Taurus) and embracing your ideals (Neptune in Aquarius). Although it can doom communications and make it difficult to concentrate, it’s a fantastic influence for using your imagination. It also favors meditation, dream analysis and envisioning possibilities – and simply taking quiet time to think about your life. So double-check the facts, but don’t be afraid to dream, too.
Also, Mercury went direct on February 1, 2009 and the the next Rx will be May 6, 11:01 AM MDT, Retrograde at 1 degree 44 minutes Gemini.
Not that I know as much as others. But I figure if Nancy can do it so can I. LOL
My favorite astrologer passed away on Halloween.
I must say I have been ‘lost’ when it comes to keeping
track of the skies.
I know, it’s not ’science’, but I enjoy it, anyway.
I find it explains things when there is no explanation
- more often than you might think, too!
I caught the point counterpoint with the proffesor on “hardball”,and for the life of me I can not understand why Buchannan is supposed to be so knowledgeable on every subect that there is.
The proffesor was talking legally,while Buchannan was talking emotionally.Pat,you lost that round.
Gibbs is repeating what Holder said Wednesday. The investigation will be conducted by the Justice Department not the White House, great. On the surface aren’t they saying the decision to appoint a special prosecutor will be determined by AG Holder after additional information is made public?
All new evidence released serves to bring additional public support to investigate. Is there any type of time constraint for AG Holder to appoint a prosecutor?
Patty C
There is a Book out still in print called the “Lost Books of the Bible and the Lost Books of Eden” actually 2 in 1. Found that when I lived in the E Seminary of the SW back in the early 80’s.
You will also find, if you look. Astrology was taken out in the Bible in the 6th Century at the controlled by People that just wanted that power.
As we can see some still equate power with money.
CCD,
So long as Obama is in power he has the authority. I will offer you that we are still trying to Deport an Alleged Nazi War Criminal in the greater Chicago area. If that can be said.
So the answer is NO, No Statute of Limitations.
That Hardball episode was very informative. We learned that Pat Buchannan has a “higher moral authority” which means he thinks he’s above the law, and he believes we have a “right to kill people.”
Sickening.
Attorney General Holder and President Obama are acting kingly and unAmerican if they think they are “The Decider” when it comes to prosecuting people who torture.
The truth is that under American law the people must decide via a grand jury and a petite jury: http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/04/holder-your-horses.html
That’s not astrology. My old Taurus always caused “travel snafus.”
Well Josh, at least you had a car. I bet the doors were easier to close on it than a Yugo.
mespo,
“…the release of the torture pictures is part of the laying of the groundwork to rally public opinion in favor of prosecution as was the release of the memos.”
I must point out that both the memos and the pictures that will be released are not the result of Obama’s largess, they are the result of a court order that forced the issue.
Public opinion is not against investigation, so why do we need to lay the groundwork for it?
JT has pointed out clearly, that Obama is deciding the matter even as he said he would not, by taking the best option to get at the truth off the table. I don’t believe in coincidences about this either.
Former Federal LEO,
Well said, well spoken.
I am unaware of your wish to have me ‘return’. I never ‘left’
- I’m busy all day. I log on when I’m free.
Besides my medical degree, I also have a law degree and managed lawyers for several years in the liability insurance industry before I switched careers. I was also married to a government lawyer at one time.
What I do for a livin has nothing to do with my opinions or my right to express them. I find Jill offensive.
And I could care less what you think. You are not my patient and I am not presently charged with your care. My partner and I worked for Harvard Medical School for practically our entire careers, so you could expect the highest standard of care from either one of us, as well as most of our colleagues, here in Maine, who, likewise, trained in Boston and presently live here for the lifestyle. Certainly not for the money.
From my lay perspective, if Jill persists on unfairly attacking Obama on a daily basis without ANY proof of allegation, as she has done incessantly since before he was even elected, then she should expect to be attacked herself occasionally. I am permitted to not like, in fact detest, people as a private citizen.
She is WAY more disrespectful than I am.
p.s. BTW, my father never made that comment to me or my sister. We weren’t the ones wearing the baseball hats – I guess!
Patty C.
Lighten up or Somebody might consider you a Troll with the likes of FORMER DEM SCOTT RUMPH. I think that Jill makes very valid points as you do. Not everyone like Steinbeck or Larry King. I chose just to ignore them. I certainly do not watch the drama.
Jill has disagred with me and I her, just today we did so. FFLEO aka LEO and fka Liar has pointed out my indiscretions as well. I do not take it personal. Since you are evidently well educated and have a vast amount of social and working skills you know some people just don’t jive.
So with that please lighten up. I find it interesting that a Harvard trained Md is interested in Astrology. That is good. It makes perfect sense to me.
What is interesting is Turley is probably using us all as examples in his classes, don’t you agree?
Patty C.,
Okay, Ma’am, I will not broach the subject again. I just care for this blawg and the people who post here even when I strongly disagree with what they posit.
I viewed the video. I am pleased that Professor Turley *tried* to debate the torture issue. I would suggest that if the professor has an agent who books television appears, that he ensures torture debates are scheduled for all of the news networks. This would allow Prof. Turley to expose how uninformed and disingenuous are those commentators and guests like Mr. Buchanan, although he hardly gets a legal word in edgewise. His mere presence refutes their basely argument that waterboarding is not torture. Mr. Hardball is a terrible interviewer.
Anon Yours,
We do disagree and I don’t take that personally either. I did think about the money involved in prosecution and here’s one place where I would get it. Legalize drugs.
Jill,
It is not about the money to Prosecute the case. Thats is chump change compared to the practicabilities of the situation.
I believe that he wants maximum public exposure and public opinion to work in his favor. I have worked for the Majority Leader-Dem Controlled and the AGs Office.
Public perception. Has a lot to do with it.
I have no problem with the legalization of drugs. But the Government does not like competition. Believe.
Anon Yours,
In your earlier post you said we didn’t have the money to engage in prosecutions. Do you still think that?
Public perception is not against investigations. I’m not certain why you believe this. Can you tell me why?
Thanks,
Jill
AnonY:
“I believe that he wants maximum public exposure and public opinion to work in his favor”
_____________________
Popularity is *not* an element of torture law and why would you link the two, given your legal training and background?
Vox Populi, as I previously stated, must not be in play at this stage regarding the DOJ.
As the expression, or old James Bond movie goes, Never Say Never Again. rule out, rule in et. al. as statements are far less important than actions. The actions of the continuing release of documents, photos and information, as Mespo began with, certainly is not coincidental. Public reaction is now beginning to pay attention and anger is building (not yet built though), the MSM and Washington Village is even paying attention due to breaking stories in the W. Post. It’s coming people.
Patty C,
You and I share similar views and I understand your discomfiture with Jill because in truth she never liked President Obama during the campaign, nor trusted him. This is off putting, but not deserving of the opprobrium you’ve heaped on her. I’m not a medical professional, but I’m a damn good psychotherapist and your attacks on her have been obsessive. I also have an Ivy League Degree (full scholarship) and 5 years post masters training at a psychotherapy institute (of course I also had an LSAT score in the high 600’s, but pissed my legal career away playing hippie). It bothers me to say this to you because I agree with most of your comments and have admiration for your skills. To have done all you do and be a great cook also bespeaks drive and talent.
This is difficult for me to write because of late I feel that Jill has gone over the top in reporting every story and citing all sources that cast the direst light on this administration. This pains me because I also know that Jill and I share similar commitments to peace and justice, so the disagreements are internecine. I have taken issue with her about it, but I haven’t cast aspersions on her character.
First because there is no need and secondly because while I think she is wrong on President Obama, she at least tries to give basis to her critiques. That is where I draw the line between troll, like Scott Rumph and Jill. She is not a troll and she is not an enemy of the aspirations, I think most of us here share, despite where we stand on the political spectrum.
I know you take pride, because you’ve said it enough, on being one of the original “Turlees” and I compliment you on your foresight. I am not but I was warmly welcomed on this site and have been treated as part of the gang since. Jill was the first to welcome me. Now I’ve been commenting on Net message boards for more than a decade and found many seemingly commodious sites, Democrats.com/Alternet for instance, to be inhabited by people who to me were just as rigid in viewpoint as the Bush/Cheney types I despise. I don’t measure people on where they stand on the political spectrum, but on their ability to have an open mind and actually think things through. I’ve found that here and you certainly are in the mix in all respects. Please take it as friendly advice that perhaps you should re-examine your overt loathing for Jill, I’m not saying embrace her, but for us “insiders” here, it would make things more comfortable if you limited your attacks to the impersonal.
Mike
AY,
Mespo and I are original ‘turlees’ and have been here longer than most. Nobody is likely to consider me a ‘troll’ – not to worry.
You might be interested to know, if you don’t already, that the Vatican is said to still contain the largest collection of astrological manuscripts in the world.
Cool, huh
FFLEO, I would suggest I ‘care’ for this blog more, as I have been here from the beginning. Before your time, I was the one who came up with nickname ‘JT’ for Jonathan.
I’ll tell you something else – Jill is the instigator here since the days of Bartlebee and she knows it.
She also routinely refuses to acknowledge having made, much less retract, patently false statements on a regular basis.
If you are going to comment, then do so fairly.
FFLEO:
“President Obama’s inconsistencies reveal either his fear, naiveté, inexperience, or—worst of all—that he is a liar and a coward.”
I think it is all of that combined to some degree (although he certainly isnt a coward), he was not ready for prime time. He should have been in the senate another term and then maybe governor of Illinois for a term or two, then run for president. He would still only be about what 55-58.
Certainly not a dumb guy but you dont make the project manager with 2 or 3 years of experience head of Bechtel.
Bron,
We simply define cowardice differently. A leader must lead regardless of what the consequences are as long as the rule of law and the U.S. Constitution are his guides.
Patty C:
Why are you so hard on Jill? I have never read anywhere where she has savaged you like you do her on a regular basis.
I read your posts and sometimes I think there are 2 of you. Is someone posting using your name?
Why do you bring up Harvard all the time? And DAR? There are a few other people on this site that went to Harvard and they never bring it up unless it is germain to the thread, you bring it up like a queen giving alms to the poor.
While I dont agree with Jill’s politics, she does do a good job researching and presenting her side of the aisle. Although your recipes are a bit better (sorry Jill).
FFLEO:
No argument there and good point. I was thinking of cowardice in the sense of taking on the Clintons and winning, one must have some “spine” to do that.
Bron,
No offense taken! I hate cooking and would never post a recipe because someone would probably end up dying. Thank you for your support on the personal attacks. That goes to everyone who has objected to the vicious, unprofessional personal attacks. They make the blog ugly and are unworthy of this site. I disagree with many people on this site but I still respect all of them. Deep feelings and strong arguments are not a crime. They mean people are thinking and feeling about things. Personal attacks, on the other hand, come straight out of egotism.
Patty,
You don’t even care to honor what JT has asked you on so many occasions. It doesn’t speak well of you and that’s all I’ll say to you.
Thank you Mike S and other for the comments.
Patty C, I want to join everyone in saying again how much we appreciate your views. However, you are straying again into personal attacks. This blog is a rare spot for passionate debate with personal animus. I realize that you have considerable differences with Jill’s view, but it is dragging down the debate to have such name calling. I have been very careful in my criticism because I do not want to loose you. Please consider the views of your friends (including myself) on this blog and refrain from these attacks. This is one of the only rules of this blog . . . other than a general bar on trolls. I would be greatly in your debt if you would dial down on the language and focus on policies rather than personalities.
Best regards,
Jonathan
Use of, “ad hominem abusive,” definitely dims ones brilliance.
Patty C.
Jill does a lot of the legwork for us here regarding many issues and therefore valuable to me personally. She presents contrary evidence/opinion that makes us all think, whether we dislike the message or the messenger.
I like you Patty C., and although I have only been here as a ‘regular’ for months, I held back numerous times already with posting a rebuttal to your attacks on Jill.
Although I stated I would not broach the subject again, you revived it. The next aspect is important because when posting online, people cannot know the extent of any of the myriad possible emotional or physical issues someone might be experiencing when they post. As a medical professional who took the Hippocratic Oath, you need to interpret what Jill stated within this blawg the last major time you ridiculed her some weeks ago. She said that your words *hurt* her personally. As a physician, at that point, you should have stopped with your attacks as a fulfillment of your Hippocratic Oath alone, regardless of your rights to post here as a private citizen. Emotional hurt is sometimes as painful—or more so—than physical hurt or pain, as you must well understand. Hurt is hurt and if someone tells me I am hurting him or her, then I will stop. If the only means I have at my disposal to stop hurting him or her is to ignore that person completely, then I will do so.
We all want you to strongly counter/rebut/refute whatever Jill states if you disagree, just please do so in the style of logical debate that you certainly had to learn in at least one legal course in law school. The most important aspect of good lawyering that I admire is that trained lawyers are skilled in critical thinking and logic. That is one principal reason why I am here, to glean more of that realm of logical thinking regarding the rule of law and the U.S. Constitution.
Additionally, I love Latin, and although I am not versed in Latin legal phraseology, I frequently used Latin and its etymological derivatives in my biological duties, primarily associated with binomial nomenclature. As I aged and then retired, I am still unable to enjoy retirement because I am often engaged in legal battles against the government regarding environmental breaches of law, especially NEPA. I often think that had 1 or 2 turns in my life had been different I might have considered a career in environmental law. However, in my 6th decade of life, I can only present fact that may or may not become relevant in a legal sense in a court case and any lawyer here will know what I mean.
I will fess up a bit more in that I also access this blawg in my attempt to learn legalese and process to understand why the lawyers I sometimes work with cannot admit certain facts in court cases to the opposition’s briefs. They often cannot legally counter governmental officials who can lie and cheat while making arbitrary and capricious decisions, simply because they are granted deference, in most cases.
The foregoing was my verbose manner of trying to state why this blawg is important to me and I access it for mostly serious reasons. I admire the humor, witticisms, strong, reasoned debate, and logical arguments—legal and otherwise—but ad hominem attacks against anyone get in the way. I have considered not returning here on numerous occasions because of those unnecessary tactics. The only items that I abhor more are the exact same inane long copy/pastes back-to-back in numerous threads over numerous topics.
Full Disclosure: FFLEO enjoys reading what both Patty C. and Jill write when in is logical, on topic, and I usually learn from both women. That reminds me, where are those other gals/girls/women who used to post here? I never wanted to go to an all-male college and I certainly prefer to get more of the feminine perspective regarding the law or current legal issues. Disclaimer: ……( in case you cannot read the preceding disclaimer legal copy, it is in very fine print; I learned that device from a lawyer, pro bono, no less).
I tried to post this before and it seems that if I begin with a salutation using Professor Turley, the post does not go through. I had a post yesterday—unrelated—that did not make the blawg. Therefore, I will try again:
Prof.J.T. I saw your post after I wrote my too long of a note. You are welcome to remove my post, given your intervention.
FF LEO,
I just made a long post that began with “Professor Turley”, hit submit and watched it disappear into the ether… Thanks for telling me what I did wrong. I should know enough to save something before I post it.
Professor Turley, I saw your appearance on Hardball and admire your restraint. Your soft-spoken logic and facts contrasted well to Pat Buchanan’s emotional bloviating. It’s too bad that Chris Matthews didn’t a better job as moderator and force Buchanan to answer your logic instead of just ranting. I agree with Mike S. that it is the actions that are ultimately taken that are important, not what President Obama says. The president is in a very delicate situation in that if he is seen to be engaging in what the Republicans see as a partisan witch-hunt, it could significantly impair his ability to enact his agenda which is of great importance to the future of our country (not to imply that war crime prosecution is unimportant, but I think President Obama is more concerned with the economy, health care, Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc. and, quite frankly, I agree that is where his focus should lie). As has been pointed out, the decision on how to proceed in this matter is entirely in the hands of AG Holder and I have no problem with him waiting to make that decision until it is politically expedient to do so. I don’t think that a prosecution can take place without ruinous political cost until the overwhelming majority of the public sees torture as both morally wrong and ineffective. For those of us that watch MSNBC as a primary news source, it may seem like this is already the case, but other networks (not just FOX) still propagate the idea that “torture is effective and has kept America safe” instead of the idea that torture has made us demonstrably less safe and led to the death of 4,000 brave American soldiers. That is why is is so important for people like Professor Turley, interrogators, generals, and intelligence officials to speak out and educate the public. Many posers here seem to view President Obama’s statements and actions on this issue in a vacuum, but as president that is something that he cannot do. I think in this circumstance he is using FDR’s model of wanting to be forced to do the right thing and given the whole situation, I don’t see a better way he could play it.
I agree with Mespo and others that Obama is placing his trust in the people who voted for him to raise enough of a stink to force his hand. Whenever I hear him or anyone else say something about “moving forward,” I have that same manipulated feeling I used to get when my daughter would offer excuses like “everyone does this.” I see red and write letters.
By the way, professor, I steal your material all the time.
Patty, I’ve never understood what you expect to gain by reminding us yet again that you found Professor Turley’s blog before some of the rest of us. Do you think your opinion should count double?
That being said, we’re both curious about the planets, so let me share this. There is a site called Alpha Trends that talks about things that happen when Pluto is in Capricorn and Sagittarius. This was written long before Obama was elected, way back when many of us thought that the repubs would control the election. Here’s a paragraph.
“Once Pluto turns direct, September 8, 2008, we will watch many events expose the hidden elements as they come to the surface of the integrity, honesty, beliefs, intentions and the use or mis-use of philosophy, religion and power. This showing of the deep ethics will continue until November 26, 2008, when Pluto moves into Capricorn and causes explosive transitions in outer situations, which bring all hidden elements out into the open. This revealing process creates huge issues of scandals, mis-use of power, corruption of any Sagittarius dealings within industries, such as churches or religious groups, higher education and colleges, judicial courts and committees, laws and legal groups, and the like. Once this explosion takes place the magma of ethics, integrity, motives and intentions will come spewing out to create our new pathway according to the qualities we have used within this Pluto in Sagittarius time frame.”
http://www.alphatrends.com/plutoincapricorn.html
LindyLou,
Thanks for that link to Alpha.
Patty C,
Thanks for the information about the Vatican, I also understand that they have a section which is not open to anyone as a special organization of the church uses this and this alone.
The rest of the list,
I read with amazement that this list is monitored. That is good. As Rodney King said as he was getting his 3 million Can’t we all just get along.
I did not feel very much like sharing anything good after I awoke and found someone had decided to move the fence line a few feet. They also rearranged the counties structure too. But I am not going to help them out this time. Property Taxes were paid in February, I would like a little return on my investment.
So it was fixed for less that 9.00 as I had a few extra boards and skill as a carpenter.
I do not know how I stumbled on this site, but by far it is one of the most incredulous sites that I have ever been a part of. For that I am pleased.
As we are aware, I don’t think anyone is being graded or are they? I did not know that there was nay kind of pecking order. I thought the ideal is of the free range, kind of like the Roman Forum the original or basis of the republican form of government.
Now I need my share of the 3 million.
Former CIA chief Goss: I can’t believe what a shameless liar Pelosi is
April 25, 2009
Goss: “Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned.
It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed.
In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.
Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:
– The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.
– We understood what the CIA was doing.
– We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.
– We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.
– On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.
I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues.”
^^^Porter Goss public statement.
Former Dem,
Is this the same Porter Goss who was the former CIA chief that was quoted as saying that he was unqualified to act as CIA chief before Bush named him? Of course, Mr. Goss has no reason to lie to protect his friends. Remember, he was a CIA operative prior to being in the Congress. One more thing, none of the Gang of Four who were “briefed” on the torture program could publicly comment on the briefing under penalty of law. Even if they had said something, or had mailed a letter to the administration to complain about the program, they could never disclose the contents of the letter(s) or once again face possible imprisonment. Now, it is time for all good Trolls to go the way of George Bush. Move to Dallas and restrict your nonsensical posts to neocon websites that don’t care about the facts.
FormerDem,
Just post a link to all your copied and pasted materials, at least we’d know who really wrote it. Oh, and have you ever given any thought to why you wouldn’t ask the wolf if he was the one eating your sheep?
Now, I’m even more offended than I was.
I don’t recall submitting myself to being psychoanalyzed and I take further exception to such ‘bona fide’ analyses, especially by THIS group! ;P
Rest assured, there are several additional observations I could make, myself, as well.
First of all, in some respects, you’ve already ‘lost’ me, JT…
Unfortunately, the #1 Constitutional law blawg has turned into ‘All Jill, All the Time’ and several original turlees have bowed out because of it. If that’s what you want, that’s fine. It’syour blog, of course.
I remind you again as I have a few times over the past several months that I personally no longer enjoy participating nearly as much as I did when DW was still here – up until late last Spring/early Summer. Even though he was pretty sick,
‘our little salon’, as he called it, remained entirely elegant and entertaining. It hasn’t been like that for a long time, Jonathan. He was such a treasure! You are blessed to still have mespo.
I post less and less, in part, because I’m no longer focused on possible available remedies for application prior to the, then much anticipated, exit of the previous administration. They’re gone and I am more resigned to allowing things to play out a bit while continuing to make my expectations known. But mostly, I cannot tolerate Jill, and I’ll tell you why.
Not long after she arrived on the blog, she announced her desire to Host a legal call-in radio show. Right – picture my ‘ScoobyDoo moment’, here…
She has no legal training – whatsoever. She said once, she ‘has ‘worked with MR/DD’ (Mentally Retarded/Developmentaly Disabled)
- whatever that means… ???
At the time she was also quite obviously ‘kissing my ass’ for lack of a better phrase, which I don’t appreciate from strangers under the most ideal circumstances. Call me crazy, I become naturally suspect.
Apparently, she has deluded herself into believing she is the next ‘Randi Rides’ or something, which could explain the unsolicited gratuitous brown nosing compliments, the sexual innuendo and potty mouth exchanges with every male poster, the automatic ‘Welcome’ mat extended to any and all newbies including every troll who has then proceeded to plague us, not to mention the ‘I genuinely care what you think/please get back to me’ inquisitive conversational style of interviewing BS.
And while you all may not resent the turlee blog having been all but overtaken with the relentless simultaneous daily barrage of vicious attacks against Obama, which began long before the election, I do – very much. Personally, I am sick of hearing it.
AND I certainly do not consider plopping oneself down at the computer, all day everyday, with the sole purpose of selectively cutting n’pasting in the effort to support an obsessive personally held and predetermined view, ‘providing research’ much less ‘doing the legwork’ for all of us. My standards are much higher as are most lawyers’.
I find the comment that I ‘keep bringing up the DAR and Harvard like a queen giving alms to the poor’ laughable. I am the target of snide attacks, by Jill, as well as a few and other petty folks, because of my pride in my ancestry on the assumption I am just a spoiled rich kid. And you just did it again, Bron 98 a/k/a Bartlebee/Waynebro/CromagnonMan!
I never said my family was wealthy,as nothing could be further from the truth. My great grandparents lost most of their money during the Depression, through failed business ventures, natural disaster and sickness. My brilliant father was only in private practice for ten years before becoming Chief of Surgery for a VA because of his illness, before becoming completely disabled before I was een out in high school while three of my sibs were in college at the same time. There schooling was paid for. Limited finances saw the the rest of us on our own, pretty much. I’ve been working since I was 15!
Mike S., I agree ‘obsessive’ might be an accurate term, here.
However, I would also suggest your observations include a couple of others – I have a great job AND a life, finally! I’ve had my present partner in life and love for 15 years now, a satisfying and lucrative career times two, and many things to look forward to everyday!
I would also remind you that when Jill insulted you recently, you were very quick to take offense and when you called her on it and she backed down right away. She has NEVER afforded me the same courtesy. Not one time. The closest she came was when I objected to her behavior ie the gratuitous ass-kissing compliments in particular, to which she responded in part by saying “I’m not your enemy, Patty” which I found very odd. Apparently, I AM her enemy because I see her for who she is, and that remark was just projection and quite telling in my own amateur pop-psychoanalytic view.
Seriously, if Obama is so obviously nothing but a scum bucket politician, might it not stand to reason to, just as casually, make the same assumption of Jill?
As far as I can tell, Jill doesn’t do anything else but blog here. Even mespo agrees with me that she sounds ‘like a broken record’. He thinks it’s funny and I just don’t have unlimited patience for it anymore, unfortunately.
Surely, you must have studied animal behavior just a smidge…
For what it’s worth, my take on the situation is that while Patty C may occasionally go over the top in here criticism, she is an unabashedly logical and insightful poster; she is rightly proud of her heritage and career and does her best to honor it; she suffers no fool gladly. That’s passing grades in my book. I would take that description (warts and all) anytime.
Can’t we all just get along? No one is more or leas important especially here. The reality is we all have a common goal. although scripted and versed we can all rather be terse. The fact is we need to all start over and realize we are friends.
There are two types of people in this world and they both bring you happiness. Some when they come and some when they go.
Patty C:
“I never said my family was wealthy,as nothing could be further from the truth. My great grandparents lost most of their money during the Depression, through failed business ventures, natural disaster and sickness. My brilliant father was only in private practice for ten years before becoming Chief of Surgery for a VA because of his illness, before becoming completely disabled before I was een out in high school while three of my sibs were in college at the same time. There schooling was paid for. Limited finances saw the the rest of us on our own, pretty much. I’ve been working since I was 15!”
Well join the club, you pompous ass. that scenario abounds and with better than the likes of you.
You are a silly little twit, wrapped up in delusions of grandeur. And actually I have made a couple of your “recipes” and they actually arent very good. So your taste isnt even all in your mouth.
I respectfully request that we *Close* this topic.
We can post under many other torture-related topics instead of this one. I look forward to informative comments from everyone.
Bron 98:
I must ask you, as I did Patty C, to refrain from the personal attacks and profanity. This site is big enough for all views. What the blog cannot tolerate is name calling and personal attacks. I have not followed these threads and I make no judgment on the provocations. It does not matter. This site is for reasoned and respectful discourse. There is no need to respond to people who are rude or boorish or in your view ill-informed. This site exists much like Hardin’s Tragedy of the Commons. People can destroy the common area through their own actions — thereby destroying the very resource that they care about. I do not want that to happen and I will start to delete offensive entries from regulars as I do trolls. I would appreciate your help on this decorum rule.
Prof. Turley:
I am sorry for the lapse, and will not let it happen again. Please delete the post.
I am just very tired of being falsely accused of being Bartlebee/Waynebro/CromagnonMan on a regular basis. For whatever reason it gets my goat, usually I leave it alone but sometimes, well…
mespo727272 1, April 26, 2009 at 7:24 am
For what it’s worth, my take on the situation is that while Patty C may occasionally go over the top in here criticism, she is an unabashedly logical and insightful poster; she is rightly proud of her heritage and career and does her best to honor it; she suffers no fool gladly. That’s passing grades in my book. I would take that description (warts and all) anytime.
—
Thanks, mespo, your my favorite ‘butt-buddy’…
Patty C:
I will wear the title “Glutæus Maximus” with pride. Now let’s get down to the serious business of carrot cake recipes. Your recipe and my rum soaked dried cherries was incredible. Don’t know what Bron98 made but I think he needs to try that cherry-rum carrot cake recipe.
“Mike S., I agree ‘obsessive’ might be an accurate term, here. However, I would also suggest your observations include a couple of others – I have a great job AND a life, finally! I’ve had my present partner in life and love for 15 years now, a satisfying and lucrative career times two, and many things to look forward to everyday!”
Patty C.,
Where have I ever criticized your career and your life, or in fact you at all as a person. In fact I’ve praised most of what I know about you. Even obsessive, while you agree with the possible accuracy, is descriptive of a behavior not an indictment of you. I could easily be characterized as garrulous and I wouldn’t argue it. I did put in my CV items because you rightly take pride in yours and so I was stating I’ve my own qualifications, which although not as impressive as yours, do indicate a certain competence. Damn it too, if I had a DAR heritage I would be proud of it. As it is my family were Hungarian peasants and our “tree” can only be traced back about 120 years. Since I used to be a blond and have blue eyes, yet am Jewish, an interesting variant no doubt got into my gene pool via rape.
“I would also remind you that when Jill insulted you recently, you were very quick to take offense and when you called her on it and she backed down right away. She has NEVER afforded me the same courtesy.”
Patty, I don’t back down from anyone if I feel wrongly attacked and perhaps my retirement would be more financially comfortable if I had. However, as the Scorpion said (my sign by the way) it’s my nature. I can understand that you resent Jill for not acknowledging it when you’ve pointed out her errors and would feel the same myself. As a matter of fact on another thread here:
http://jonathanturley.org/2009/04/25/pastor-pushia-confesses-to-using-church-funds-to-hire-hitman-to-kill-blind-disabled-man-for-insurance-money/#comment-49790
Jill actually cast aspersions on me which I just completely answered, noting my being pissed off about it. However, I don’t feel the need to tear her apart, since like you I have the competence to refute by logic. I would be sad at your departure, particularly because of your long standing in this community.
“I don’t recall submitting myself to being psychoanalyzed”
I hope you weren’t referring to me because I don’t do psychoanalysis and have many disagreements with Freud and the whole Psychiatric/Psychological establishment. I come more from an existential perspective and as such make observations of what I think I see, that I recognize may, or not be correct.
“Mike:
You and I share similar views and I understand your discomfiture with Jill because in truth she never liked President Obama during the campaign, nor trusted him. This is off putting, but not deserving of the opprobrium you’ve heaped on her.”
If you think about it our views on this are not that far apart. Where we differ though is that while we are both capable of logically dismantling whatever is thrown at us, you take it more personally. I have been know, on this site, to have utilized aspersion on some posters. My view is to save that for those who truly are to be loathed. In Jill’s case I know that you and I both believe that torture is evil, should be ended and Bush/Cheney tried. So does Jill, but you and I disagree on her timetable and on her acting as if the sky is falling, when progress is actually being made quite rapidly.
It would be a loss to this site if you disengaged and would personally make me sad. As a true Scorpio (you don’t know even a quarter of it as to how true a Scorpio I am)I much prefer to be retributive via stiletto rather than saber. To me that’s the best way to hold together a diverse community that I believe has some purpose in this world.
Mike
I can understand that you resent Jill for not acknowledging it when you’ve pointed out her errors and would feel the same myself. As a matter of fact on another thread here: …
—-
Mike S.
That’s what I was referring to with regard to your choice of the term ‘obsessive’, thank you.
BTW, I am Scorpio Rising
Too bad, PC, because I am a true Scorpio also, so you are caught between 2 Scorpio posts here.
I finally had the time to watch the entire Hardball segment. With all due respect to our posters, Buchanan’s position, in so far as the process that we are likely to see, rings true to me. His position that the country will be “ripped apart” by doing what the law requires is hyperbolic, condescending, and dismissive. His absurd appeal to “a higher moral law,” and MLK is breathtaking unless he means the law of jungle which obligates the obsequious follower to protect one’s leader against any attack to safeguard his own skin — and that is neither moral nor law, at least not since we emerged from caves. JT’s elegant retort mirrors what many have said here (and channeling W.S. Churchill) that, “… we are indeed made of sterner stuff.” And even if we aren’t, we are surely committed to the idea that we are a “nation of laws, and not of men.” Maybe in honoring that venerable and unique idea of ours that was crystallized by John Adams, we will find the strength if, in fact, we need it. Fiat justitia, ruat caelum!
mespo727272 1, April 26, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Patty C:
I will wear the title “Glutæus Maximus” with pride. Now let’s get down to the serious business of carrot cake recipes. Your recipe
and my rum soaked dried cherries was incredible. Don’t know what Bron98 made but I think he needs to try that cherry-rum carrot cake recipe.
—-
What a team…!
Cherries in rum – now there a twist!
Did you go ‘whole hog’, so to speak, with the citrus glaze and marscapone icing or did you try Buddhas maple syrup idea?
Gin soaked raisins (sultanas) are a popular folk remedy for arthritis, but I also do currants in brandy in pastries like Stollen at Christmas, a tradition, and raisins in bourbon for our home version of Philadelphia Sticky Buns – my partner’s personal all-time-fav weekend brunch treat.
It’s fun to play around.
This recipe made me laugh. Too bad Buddha is on vaca…
http://www.gourmet.com/recipes/2000s/2000/12/maidaheatterscookies
Maida Heatter’s Chocolate Cookies with Gin-Soaked Raisins
Makes about 12 large cookies
* Active time:40 min
* Start to finish:10 hr (includes soaking raisins)
December 2000
“Crusty on the outside, with a rich, gooey center,” wrote Heatter about her cookies in our December 2000 issue; “They…pack a punch…you won’t taste the gin, but you’ll feel its effects.” Indeed, these are for grown-ups only. Start macerating the fruit a day ahead.
Patty C:
Just the marscapone icing, but I did enjoy the rum soaked cherries.
I really like using spirits in dried fruit.
In the North End of Boston, there are all kinds of specialty Italian markets and bakeries where I still love to shop although I do so much less frequently, obviously. Rum is very big, as you know. I’m not a huge fan of rum flavor desserts, myself, but I do like the essence of rum once in a while and in small portions.
I find mascerating dried fruit in spirits gives that little zing instead of overwhelming every bite with the essence of, for instance, the rum you get in a rum filling.
I’ll have to try your cherries. Dark or light rum?
Patty C:
“…there are all kinds of specialty Italian markets and bakeries where I still love to shop….”
*********
Well funny you say that because I got the idea from my Italian great-grandmother who used to include them in holiday rum cakes. I used the light run because that’s all I had. I really like the dried cherries in almost anything. You can soak them in a little merlot and then do a wine reduction and add to poultry like seared duck breast or capon. Throw on some swiss chard sauteed with oil oil and red pepper flakes, and life will seem (and be) very good indeed.
As an observation,
1) Strong personalities can often create friction, but then again, it’s the warmth of the fire that keeps the really good commentators coming back. As long as a contributor brings a) honesty [as in their postings consistently present topics of legitimate concern without the need for using the tools of neocon propaganda] and b) a well thought out point of view – who cares about disagreeing amongst ourselves enough to create escalation? This is my stance every time I’ve said something about the “internal” frictions. I love Patty and Jill both equally although I don’t always agree with either on specifics. Save that vigor for those who deserve your ire – the torture apologists and those who would see our fundamental Constitutional rights trampled under the boot of tyranny.
2) We are all on the same side – the Constitution and the Rule of Law. We may differ on the methods for the restoration, but our common goal should override any personal differences that crop up as to methodology. Just as our diversity is our strength, we should not let it weaken us. It’s is a two-edged sword. Let’s use our weapons properly, people. It maximizes effectiveness in the field and reduces team and self injury. Plus, in-fighting could drive off new and potentially good contributors like Slartibartfast.
3) That being said, as one who has the ability to weave a tapestry of profanity, I appreciate the Prof’s efforts to keep the site a bit “family friendly”. I’ve adopted the rather silly MPAA model and assumed that JT wants a modicum of decorum that is at a maximum baudy level of NC-17. Please correct me if I’m wrong. While it is well established that the thought police are the only ones I despise more than the language police, this is the Prof.’s playground. Playing nicer – I mean amongst ourselves and with transient guests, not trolls – isn’t a matter of capitulation to the thought police. It’s a matter of manners owed the host. I stipulate that I can be a rowdy guest and do merit the periodic reminder not to set things on fire. Consequently, I feel that is exactly what gives me standing to comment on that issue. That is all I have to say about that.
4) The mojito is indeed the perfect drink. After a long night of trying to beat Hemingway’s record (for drinking only, not misusing firearms), I understand the attraction. The copious amount of club soda keeps anything but the tinniest of hangovers at bay.
5) Crucible? Let’s talk first vacation as a couple. It has been a hoot this far. And if cornered I’ll deny it like seamus would deny sobriety on St. Patrick’s Day, but the current lady friend may be a keeper. Speaking of which, I should be a good boyfriend and take her coffee and breakfast. Poor lady was drinking mai-tais and will likely feel like she needs to shave her tongue this morning.
I will attempt to swing by later in the week as there is a lot going on to comment about, but I hope you’ll understand if I don’t. So unless I get eaten by a shark, I’ll be back at some point.
Thanks for the compliment Buddha, I hope I can live up to the potential you see in me. Don’t worry about me being scared off – I suspect I’ll be here as long as there is honest debate (although I certainly prefer that it be civil as well, this place is so far above the norm for the internet and the obvious concern of people here (including Professor Turley) to keep it that way gives me no qualms at all). For the record, my only frustration with Jill is that she is sometimes unresponsive to my point, but I’ll take that as a lack of clarity on my part more than anything else. I have to agree with Buddha about the mohito (although sangria is also very good and I have a weakness for fine port as well..) and while cooking is one of my hobbies, I’m more of a barely controlled chaos in the kitchen kind of cook than a trading recipes kind of cook and this conversation seems to have gotten way off topic, so I think I’ll jump to another thread as I still have some thoughts on the torture issue…
Is it time to begin organizing a general strike on behalf of the Constitution and the Law?
Or, is the administrations’ recurring anti-Constitutional theme centered on the availability of evidence held in other active investigations? No lawyer, I submit, but shouldn’t discovery in related cases be combined to the simplest and most expedient form?
You see, I can be reverse deluded into believing my half-full side.
All of this protectionism couldn’t rest on the quality and consequences of discovery in the illegal wiretapping of citizens, their representatives, and the Judiciary-anyone and everyone an enemy of the state-all being intrinsically linked and so available to both ongoing investigations by Justice and those currently demanded by us, could it?
Not to remotely suggest I’d ever leave my guard down. Eight years of CheBushney occupation and it’s Never Again II.