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Bush and Obama: War Crimes or Lawful Wars?

This afternoon, I will be one of the moderators as part of “Debating Taboos” series of the Center for Study of Responsive Law. This series, organized by consumer rights icon Ralph Nader, is designed to foster dialogue in areas where politicians and even reporters tend to avoid substantive discussion. This part is entitled “Bush and Obama: War Crimes or Lawful Wars – Debating Taboos.” I will be asking questions from the perspective of those who view torture as a war crime while Stuart Taylor of Newsweek will ask questions from the other side of the debate. The event is open to the public.

Here is the line up:

Debaters arguing for the proposition that Bush and Obama engaged in war crimes

Bruce Fein is an attorney and constitutional scholar, and has consulted foreign nations on matters ranging from constitutional revision to telecommunications and cable regulation, and human rights. He appears regularly on national and international television, cable, and radio programs as an expert in foreign affairs, terrorism, national security, and has testified over 200 times before Congressional committees. .

Lt. Colonel Tony Shaffer is a highly experienced U.S. Army intelligence officer, and is nationally known as a Subject Matter Expert (SME) for intelligence collection and policy, terrorism, data mining, situational awareness and adaptive/disruptive technologies. He is also a senior advisor to multiple organizations on terrorism and counterinsurgency issues and a member of the US Nuclear Strategy Forum.

Debaters arguing against the proposition that Bush and Obama engaged in war crimes

David B. Rivkin is a member of Baker & Hostetler Law Firm’s litigation, international and environmental groups and co-chairs the firm’s appellate and major motions team. He served in the White House Counsel’s office and the Department of Justice under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. Prior to embarking on a legal career, Mr. Rivkin worked as a defense and foreign policy analyst, focusing on Soviet affairs, arms control, naval strategy and NATO-related issues, and served as a defense consultant to numerous government agencies and Washington think tanks.

Lee Casey a partner at Baker & Hostetler, focuses on federal environmental, constitutional and international law and Alien Tort Statute issues. He served in the Department of Justice under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. He also advises clients on compliance issues under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA), U.S. trade sanctions regimes, and federal ethics requirements. Mr. Casey’s practice includes federal, district and appellate court litigation, as well as matters before federal agencies. From 2004 through 2007 he served as a member of the United Nations Subcommission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights.

Here are the details:

When: Friday, November 18, 2011 at 12:30 p.m.
What: Bush/Obama: War Crimes or Lawful Wars?
Where: 1530 P St NW, Washington, DC – Carnegie Institution building

61 thoughts on “Bush and Obama: War Crimes or Lawful Wars?”

  2. Greg,
    Take a breath. I did not belittle you or Mr. Horton. I simply stated that I would not visit the the LaRouche site. My problem is with LaRouche, not Harton or you.

    1. Rafflaw,
      Rafflaw,
      With all due respect, I love you like a brother, but surely you must realize that the purpose of this meeting today, and even the very title of the series, Debating Taboos,” and the stated goal “designed to foster dialogue in areas where politicians and even reporters tend to avoid substantive discussions,” is on the topic, “Bush and Obama: War Crimes or Lawful Wars.”
      If the topic and the purpose of your comments was, “Perpetuate and Enforce Taboos,” with the goal of “Preventing at all costs the fostering of dialogues in areas where politicians and even reporters tend to avoid substantive discussions,” then Rafflaw, you win the GOLD MEDAL hands down. Congratulations, you gave it a great effort and you really showed em how to do it…
      However you seem to lack a certain quality of delicious and playful irony which would help liberate your mind to going outside the Taboos, which have been set up for you and others.
      Rafflaw, my good brother, my recommendation is to take the chains off of your mind and let them fall to earth, like dew……….
      And when you do that, the world will be a better place for all. Gerald
      P.S.- What is your thinking on the substance of the discussion, let us know, “War Crimes or Lawful Wars.” Please shed light on the substance…. Thanks, Gerald

  3. Dredd,

    I don’t see Obama and Bush as being all that different as people. They are both not that bright and strongly authoritarian. They are ruthless while, to their own constituents, they appear personable and likable. They are equally ready to serve the incompetents who run things as long as they get to have a little actual power and lots of pretend power.

    That’s my take. But I think you make a good point. These people are both monsters, but they are our monsters. They are on the far end of the scale of a society which worships money and power and doesn’t care what you have to do to achieve those things.

    Our society largely organizes itself in service of these two goals and little else. It is why our culture tends to be impoverished in intellect, imagination, kindness, fun and social justice. Its why OWS is such a good antidote to people like Obama and Bush. OWS is speaking to those who know there is a lot more to life than the repetitive, blunt force trauma of cruelty in the service of money and power. It is speaking from, by and for those who understand life is about caring for others, joy, meaning, kindness, fun, work and doing things of value with one’s life. Something the incompetents no nothing about.

  5. Scott Horton who has impeccable credentials as a leftist, interviewed Francis Boyle this year. Find the interview at a left wing website called: antiwar.com Here is a sample of it: “Scott Horton Interviews Francis Boyle
    Scott Horton, August 25, 2011

    Francis Boyle, Professor at the University of Illinois College of Law, discusses how in 2004 the FBI and CIA tried to make him an informant to betray his Arab and Muslim legal clients; how his refusal landed him on
    several terrorism watch lists, guaranteeing him a lifetime of harassment when traveling; the list of five thousand Arabs, Muslims and their sympathizers that the FBI interrogated and attempted to “turn;” the US government’s habit of rounding up entire groups of Americans (or planning to) and sending them to prison camps during a crisis – Constitution notwithstanding; and why we already live in a police state, which will become a military dictatorship after one more major terrorist attack.”

  8. The personalities, background, intellect, abilities, goals, and manners of Bush II compared to Obama I are astoundingly different.

    It makes me wonder if there is a national mechanism that produces “them” independent of their own individual psyche, in some manner.

    What I am getting at, is what if a nation develops a criminal synergy (like some mysto tornado) working in it that needs attending, rather than the prosecution of individuals?

    Perhaps to be done in an international court.

    …. just sayin’ … 😉

  12. I’ll look forward to seeing it on C-Span or via the supplied link. Thanks, anon and Blouise. And thank you, Professor Turley, for all that you do… This should be streamed to our nation’s schools… Mandatory viewing.

  13. bookmarked the event for viewing on C-Span at 3:58pm on 11/25 if it isn’t posted sooner on the debatingtaboos.org

  15. It something like this that makes me think maybe we don’t live in a total authoritarian nightmare yet. Thanks for lending a hand & good luck.

  17. There is definitely a morph or evolution that has and still is taking place in our nation.

    This debate focuses on one area where the morph is quite detectable by the contrast in opinion and viewpoint.

    I am glad to see it being discussed.

  18. Martin, video seems to be recording by cspan with links posted here: http://www.csrl.org/video-links/debating-taboos-series/

    But where is the URL so we can watch it streaming live?

    I don’t often watch cspan — does cspan not stream live on the net? They don’t seem to. I guess the C in their name means Cable TV and Cable Radio but not Cable Internet.

    Professor Turley, maybe you can suggest to the CSRL that they stream this live. It can be done for free using a smartphone and Qik/Justin.TV/UReach….

  20. I’m glad Nader will provide a forum for this debate. We must not sweep the actions of presidents under the rug. We the people have a duty to understand what these men have done/are doing and what the implications of their actions and our tolerance for their illegal and depraved actions are.

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