There is an interesting ruling out of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit over a ban at a California high school of students wearing tee-shirts with American flags during the Mexican heritage celebration Cinco de Mayo. The court ruled in favor of the school out of concern for potential racial violence. We previously discussed this controversy. I strongly disagree with the holding and the logic. The opinion is Dariano v. Morgan Hill Unified Sch. Dist., 2014 U.S. App. LEXIS 3790 .
The school required students to turn their tee-shirts inside out if they showed an American flag at the Oak High School in the San Jose suburb of Morgan Hill. Judge M. Margaret McKeown ruled that the first amendment had to give way to the deference afforded to school officials. She began the opinion by emphasizing the reasonable concerns of the school:
“Live Oak had a history of violence among students, some gang-related and some drawn along racial lines. In the six years that Nick Boden served as principal, he observed at least thirty fights on campus, both between gangs and between Caucasian and Hispanic students. A police officer is stationed on campus every day to ensure safety on school grounds.
On Cinco de Mayo in 2009, a year before the events relevant to this appeal, there was an altercation on campus between a group of predominantly Caucasian students and a group of Mexican students.2 The groups exchanged profanities and threats. Some students hung a makeshift American flag on one of the trees on campus, and as they did, the group of Caucasian students began clapping and chanting “USA.” A group of Mexican students had been walking around with the Mexican flag, and in response to the white students’ flag-raising, one Mexican [*5] student shouted “f*** them white boys, f*** them white boys.” When Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez told the student to stop using profane language, the student said, “But Rodriguez, they are racist. They are being racist. F*** them white boys. Let’s f*** them up.” Rodriguez removed the student from the area.”
That is a troubling history to be sure and it proved determinative in the free speech analysis. McKeown ruled:
Our role is not to second-guess the decision to have a Cinco de Mayo celebration or the precautions put in place to avoid violence. “We review . . . with deference[] schools’ decisions in connection with the safety of their students even when freedom of expression is involved,” keeping in mind that “deference does not mean abdication.” LaVine, 257 F.3d at 988, 992. As in Wynar, the question here is not whether the threat of violence was real, but only whether it was “reasonable for [the school] to proceed as though [it were].” 728 F.3d at 1071; Karp, 477 F.2d at 175 (noting that “Tinker does not demand a certainty that disruption will occur, but rather the existence of facts which might reasonably lead school officials to forecast substantial disruption”). Here, both the specific events of May 5, 2010, and the pattern of which those events were a part made it reasonable for school officials to proceed as though the threat of a potentially violent disturbance was real. We hold that school officials, namely Rodriguez, did not act unconstitutionally, under either the First Amendment or Article I, § 2(a) of the California Constitution, in asking students to turn their shirts inside out, remove them, or leave school for the day with an excused absence in order to prevent substantial disruption or violence at school.
The decision is part of a growing line of cases granting sweeping deference to school officials and curtailing the free speech rights of students. I have long disagreed with that trend. In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), the Supreme Court supported the first amendment rights of Iowa residents John F. Tinker (15 years old), John’s younger sister Mary Beth Tinker (13 years old), and their friend Christopher Eckhardt (16 years old) in wearing black armbands in protest of the Vietnam War. In his majority decision, Justice Abe Fortas held that “undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression.” In a statement would would seem to fit this case, Fortas found that “the record does not demonstrate any facts which might reasonably lead school authorities to forecast substantial disruption of or material interference with school activities, and no disturbances or disorders on the school premises in fact occurred.” Since Tinker, the Supreme Court has steadily limited the speech rights of students as in the ruling in the “Bong Hits For Jesus” case.
I fail to see why the court should not “second guess” officials when they are curtailing core free speech protections. The problem is not the tee-shirts but violent or unruly conduct by students. It is the conduct of the students not the content of the tee-shirts that should be the focus of the school in my view.
What do you think?
Here is the opinion.
Source: USA Today
“I of course do not agree that banning more speech is better than banning less speech.” My point was not that the Mexican flag should also have been banned, but rather, it’s very interesting that officials of a US school decided that a US flag should be banned but not the foreign flag. If the officials wanted to avoid offending anyone, then why choose only the US flag? Could the officials have shown less respect for the flag? I think that is a hell of a lot more disrepectful than wearing a flag on a tshirt. Why respect the symbol if you are not going to respect what it stands for?
“Wherever the US has the right to “fly the flag”, our principles should be followed there.” Absolutely. A US military base is effectively US soil. That means the Constitution applies. I don’t have a lot of problem with the treatment of folks at Guantanamo- the problem comes from pretending that somehow, because the territory is not owned by the US, that the same rules that would apply in the continental US don’t apply there. If it is to be treated as US territory, which, as long as it is a US military base, it is, then we need to apply the Constitution there. Don’t want to apply the Constitution to the prisoners? Don’t hold them on US soil. But that’s a different matter.
selfhelplegal – I support you for the Supreme Court.
” if I see people with US Flags festooning their clothing, I do point out that they are disrespecting the flag” Would that be in all cases, such as when the military , police or EMT/paramedics have shoulder flags? Or just the kind of wearing of flags on folks you don’t like? If it’s OK as long as it’s a uniform, how about a school uniform that puts flags on back pockets, so students after the leader can always be reminded of what country they are in? I think the flag should be respected, even the Mexican flag, and the way it gets waved around on Cinco de Mayo is often disrespectful. However, as the Supremes have pointed out, it’s important to protect expressions that we don’t like, because those are the ones needing the most protection. Otherwise, there can be no freedom of expression. That’s why desecrating the flag is free speech, and, as Dennis Miller pointed out, the best way to desecrate the flag is to wrap it around the head and put a large caliber bullet through it. If we suppress offensive speech, then eventually the bar gets lowered to the point that what *you* say is offensive and gets banned. The real problem is less that the US flag got banned than the Mexican one did not ALSO get banned.
slefhelplegal
I of course do not agree that banning more speech is better than banning less speech. Brandeis said, famously, ” the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.”
Matinguigino:
I don’t think those kids would have been banned from wearing a flag shirt on any other day and I don’t think they were. I do think the school was right to try to minimize potential sources of violence however and that is just exactly what they did. This does not mean that I think disrespecting the US Flag is the right thing to do either – matter of fact, if I see people with US Flags festooning their clothing, I do point out that they are disrespecting the flag and direct them to the US Flag Code. It is because I assume they want to respect our Flag and that they just didn’t know that putting an image of the US Flag on clothing is disrespectful. The Flag REPRESENTS the US Constitution and that’s why it’s important to respect it. You pledge allegience to the Flag because it REPRESENTS the Republic – and that Republic is based on our Constitution. Stop trying to defend disrespect to our Constitution and the Flag it represents – you are friggin unbelievable!
James:
You feel
1. That is was right to prevent the American kids from wearing a US flag on the 5th of May, because that reduced the potential of violence.
2. You oppose disrespecting the US flag.
3. The flag represents the Constitution.
4. You want me to agree with you, and forget what I think.
As to #3, I wish that were true. In that case, the flag that flies over Guantanamo Bay would mean that the Bill of Rights applies to the people in prison there, under the theory that the Constitution follows the flag. I strong agree with this idea. Wherever the US has the right to “fly the flag”, our principles should be followed there. Thanks for pointing this out.
Dear martingugino:
How do you feel about people disrespecting the US Flag?
BigFatMike. Schools across this nation regularly make students turn their t-shirts inside out – drug, gang, sex, violence related messages on t-shirts are regularly suppressed at schools. These punk teenagers were trying to incite violence against them by wearing these disrespectful to the US Flag t-shirts on Cinco De Mayo day, a day when we should be celebrating the contributions of Mexicans to the existence of the US Flag and the government it represents. That was a rude thing to do, something a white supremecist would do. However, if I was an administrator – I would make them turn that t-shirt around as well because it is a disrespectful display of the US Flag. You must be one of those liberals who like to disrespect our Flag.
I’m sure you believe everything you read in the blogasphere, but I don’t. Go to the site where the factual information on this case is. There you will see a lot more information.
In this country, it is not a “less popular view” that the US Flag is to be respected and used with reverence to respect the Constitution and all those who died fighting the fascists, slavers and royalists who fought to destroy us. Therefore, how can you say that honoring the US Flag is a “less popular view”? You have now read the US Flag Code that I posted and you now know that it is disrespectful to wear the image of a flag as an article of clothing, yet you still defend these punks right to do so. I would have thought that you would think that DISRESPECTING the US Flag was the less popular view because that is what those punk teenagers were doing and what you celebrated them for.
It is obvious why these punks were wearing these shirts on the one day that we as Americans celebrate the contributions of Mexicans to the continuation of our Republic – they wanted to denigrate and minimize those contributions.
I’m pretty mad at those punks too, I’ll give you a quote of a loyal patriotic american who has a different way than me in dealing with people who disrespect our flag.
http://aattp.org/bill-maher-rips-duck-dynasty-idiot-for-disrespecting-the-flag-video/
James: I said that I felt the students should be allowed to wear the American flag on their shirts on the 5th of May, just as on any other day. Do you want to extend the ban to make a permanent injunction against wearing the flag? I think that goal is unattainable. I feel it is more important to respect the Constitution than the flag, if that was your question, taking my cue from Supreme Court judge Anthony Kennedy in the Johnson flag case.
BigFatMike – yeah you have the right display whatever flag you want – you can disrespect the flag too – burn it, rub shit on it, spill your beer on it, whatever – but it is disrespectful nonetheless.
Our Flag stands for our Constitution. When you pledge alliegence to the flag, you are declaring your allegiance to our Constitution – that’s what the words “To our Republic” means.
However, punks in high school have their speech curtailed all the time as far as expressing that speech on a school’s grounds.
A school is NOT the government and therefore can not be held to the standards of the US Constitution, which affects the National and State government behaviors, not a local school district.
Why don’t you actually read the US Flag Code and learn a little today about how to respect the symbol of our Nation. While you’re at it, read about the Battle of the Pueblo and find out how the Mexicans saved our bacon as a Country called the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
James I have been in Puebla many times and have read about that battle which was of little consequence in world or even Mexican history, much less US history. Too bad you know so little about either country. You are basically incoherent on this subject and on all of your posts.
Randyjet – You have missed the history portion of your high school civics course –
The Battle of Puebla was important for at least two reasons. First, although considerably outnumbered, the Mexicans defeated a much better-equipped French army. “This battle was significant in that the 4,000 Mexican soldiers were greatly outnumbered by the well-equipped French army of 8,000 that had not been defeated for almost 50 years.” Second, since the Battle of Puebla, no country in the Americas has subsequently been invaded by any other European military force.
More importantly, The French wanted to break up our Union because Napoleon wanted to invade and conquer our country. Some historians have argued that France’s real goal was to help break up the American Union, at the time in the midst of a civil war, by helping the southern Confederacy. They also wanted to invade and conquer Canada, something the industrialists and wealthy southerners also wanted to do. The defeat at the Pueblo demoralized the French and provided the opportunity of the Union to regroup, knowing that the French were not going to re-supply the South in the Civil War.
Donald W. Miles states, “At the time, there were fears in the United States that the French would use Mexico as a base to back the Confederacy, so President Lincoln and his Secretary of State went out of their way to appear ‘neutral’ in the Mexican situation. They did not want to take on the French and the Confederates at the same time”. Dr. Miles goes on to explain that “Napoleon III had hesitated to take on the United States directly, but now the news of the Civil War changed everything”. It meant that the Americans would be occupied with their conflict between North and South for some time. Upon hearing the Spaniards and the British had sailed off to grab the customs house in Veracruz to start collecting their duties, Napoleon decided he would not only send the French navy, but would also start looking for someone to place as emperor in Mexico. He would then use Mexico as a base to help the Confederates win their war against the United States. Napoleon saw this as an opportunity not to be missed.
Historian Justo Sierra has written in his Political Evolution of the Mexican People, that had Mexico not defeated the French in Puebla on May 5, 1862, France would have gone to the aid of the South in the U.S. Civil War and the United States’ destiny could have been very different. You would be speaking French – because the South could not fend off the eventual French invasion and takeover if the Rebels had won – you would NOT EVEN HAVE A STARS and STRIPES to honor.
Ignacio Gonzalez wrote, “Some scholars, including José Antonio Burciaga, believe that had the French defeated México at Puebla, France would have aided the South in the American Civil War in order to free Southern ports of the Union Blockade. During this time, Confederate General Robert E. Lee was enjoying success, and French intervention could have had an impact on the Civil War.”
http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/10.html
Your comments about the use of an image of the US Flag show your disrespect for our Country’s constitution and it’s Flag.
James you are delusional and ignorant since you cannot understand or know anything about the French in Mexico. After their defeat at Puebla, the French went on to take most of the major cities in all of Mexico. The loss at Puebla had no effect on the course of the war. The French went on to win the war for the most part and had all of central Mexico and Mexico City. As for France joining up with the Confederacy that is delusional since Napoleon III could have easily recognized the Confederacy and that would have meant war with the Union. Even Napoleon didn’t think he could take on the Union at that point. So I think that his judgment is more a reliable indicator of the balance of forces at the time.
The numbers of troops the French had could not even finish off Juarez, much less join the Confederacy or conquer it. THAT is why you are delusional. All it took to get rid of Maximillian was to send Sheridan to the border with supplies of 30,000 rifles and ammo, and the French turned tail and RAN. They also knew that the US Navy ruled the waves after the Civil war as it did during it. That is why Napoleon had to get out.
randyjet
You obviously haven’t read your history – even though provided you with the link. The Battle of the Pueblo was a key factor in limiting the resources of the French military. The French wanted the Confederacy to win and were backing them because if the Confederacy won the French could easily conquer America. If the French had won the Battle of the Pueblo and gone on to conquer Mexico a that time, they WOULD have had the resources to aid the Rebels.
You are going against what many reputable historians have written about the conflict which forms the basis for the holiday we in the United States honor with the Cinco De Mayo celebrations. You’re probably a holocaust denier too huh.
I see that you are the one who has no knowledge of history or facts of any kind. The defeat at Puebla had no effect on the war in Mexico since it only delayed the conquest by a few months. The FRENCH WON the war for the most part. I know of no reputable historian who would say the defeat changed anything. I DO know a number of them personally especially Dr John Hart who is an expert on Mexico among others. Your assertion that the French were backing the Confederacy is not borne out by the FACTS. Napoleon could have easily recognized the Confederacy without sending a single soldier to aid them. He was AFRAID to do that since he could not afford a war with the Union and it is delusional to think that Lincoln or the Union was under any threat from them. I see that since the French could not finish off Juarez with the number of troops they had indicates that the sure as hell could never hope to take on the Union which had nearly one million men under arms, and the Confederacy had about 500,000 at their high point. A couple of just a few thousand French troops would be just a pimple in our Civil War and of no effect.
Your lack of ability to reason, reminds me of the joke about a man who went around stamping the ground. A person stopped him and asked why he was doing that. He replied it was to keep the elephants away. The questioner exclaimed, but there are no elephants for hundreds of miles around. His response was, SEE IT WORKS. Just because you or some other fool says it is true, does NOT make it so.
Cinco de Mayo, the 5th of May, celebrates an incredible victory by native Mexican soldiers over the imperialist French who tried to rule them way back in 1862.
The French wanted to collect their debts from Mexico and, rather than making a deal with Mexican government, decided to put into power a new French emperor, Maximilian. Most native Mexicans were furious.
The Mexican leader, General Zaragosa, ordered Colonel Diaz to attack the flanks of the French army with his excellent cavalry. The French chased them, and were defeated. Those French forces that remained were ordered to attack. They charged through mud, a thunderstorm, and a stampede of cattle stirred up by Native Americans armed only with machetes. They, too, were defeated.
Fiesta! Cinco de MayoThis victory for Zaragosa and his men, at two to one odds, was not only important to the Mexicans, but also to the United States. The French were planning to supply the Confederate Army. With the French influence gone from Mexico, the South lost its chance to rebuild. Union forces continued to grow stronger, and ultimately the South was defeated in 1865. The Union reinforced the Mexican Army immediately after Zaragosa’s victory, and the American Legion of Honor marched in the Victory Parade in Mexico City.
Cinco de Mayo is a time to celebrate the friendship between Mexico and the United States. Across the United States, Cinco de Mayo parties give everyone a chance to learn more about Hispanic culture.
For a group of rag tag volunteers to defeat the most powerful military inthe world – that’s something to celebrate.
James – thank you for the nice summary!
Randyjet: I never said that French influence stopped after the Battle of Puebla. In fact, I said the opposite by posting the history of the French going on to conquer Mexico. I did not say that Mexico celebrates Cinco De Mayo, I said that the holiday is celebrated primarily in the United States. The key to the reason for US Citizens to celebrate Cinco De Mayo is that if the Mexicans had not defeated the French at the Battle of the Pueblo, they would have conqeured Mexico at that time and been able to reserve a great deal of military strength to assist the Rebels in the US Civil War. Why would the french want to assist the Rebels? Because they felt that if the REbels won, the Government which would exist at the end of the Civil war would be so weak as to not be able to repel a French invasion and France would be able to conquer all of North America, which was Napoleon’s goal. Randyjet, you deny your history, and you lie about what I have said.
“In 1862, the United States was in the middle of a civil war. All the South needed was a strong exterior ally and its strengthened cause might have permanently split the United States. A possible exterior ally was closer than Abraham Lincoln liked, as the French Army under Gen. Laurencez was making its way through Mexico.” From:
http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/10.html
James I can only say that your “history” is bizarre. French influence did NOT end after the battle of Puebla, and in FACT INCREASED when the French occupied most of Mexico and Mexico City. Maximillian became Emperor AFTER the defeat at Puebla as the French and their Mexican allies took control. I suggest you read some history rather than some idiot who put that idea in your head.
The French military in Mexico was hardly the most powerful military in the world, the Union armies were that in fact as was the Union Navy which at the end of the Civil War could have taken on the Royal Navy and won. The French were only good at conquering smaller and weaker nations such as Vietnam and African territory. The reason the battle of Puebla was selected was that the victory was an all Mexico affair that owed nothing whatsoever to US aid. The battle is of so little consequence that Mexico itself does NOT celebrate it since it had nothing to do with victory over the French in the war. The Mexicans won that one battle, but lost most of Mexico afterwards. I know that if you ask Mexican historians to celebrate Cinco de Mayo as a national holiday, they will know you have taken leave of your senses, or lost your mind since it had nothing to do with Mexico’s eventual victory over the French. The Mexicans only expelled the French after the US ordered the French out at the end of the Civil War and sent arms and soldiers to Juarez to make that happen.
Adding two slightly off topic items,
1. in the armband case (Mary Beth Tinker), it is the older judges who felt that kids should be quiet in school, and the younger ones who felt the kids should be allowed to express their thoughts on the war
2. As for so called “symbolic” speech, such as an armband, may I note that writing is already “symbolic speech”, where the symbols are the alphabet.
“A school is NOT the government and therefore can not be held to the standards of the US Constitution, which affects the National and State government behaviors, not a local school district. ”
Unless the school is a private school (which is not the case here), the school is in fact a part of the government and the constitution does apply. That is basic, obvious and not in any way controversial.
What is controversial is what level of protection students should have. I for one believe that student should have protection over a broad range. In particular I believe students should have protection for expression of their views regardless of whether that expression is in the form of speech, a written article or display of a symbol.
BTW, I see no essential difference between the flag symbol of a shirt or the flag symbol of a lapel pin worn by the president of the US.
“Why don’t you actually read the US Flag Code ”
Your are right I have not read the US Flag Code. But as a boy I did have positions where it was my responsibility to raise, lower and fold the flag each day and occasionally participate in color guard. Today, decades after that, I still notice when I drive by a court house or capital and see the flag flying in the rain.
But until a court rules that the US Flag Code trumps the constitution I will defer to the constitution. I think you should too.
There is no constitutional right to incite violence. I have served in the US Military, having VOLUNTEERED to serve during the Vietnam War. I have pledged my life to defending this Constitution. These punks who were trying to use the image of the US Flag to incite violence and express their bigotry have no right to free speech when it is misused in such a gross manner. The Courts have spoken on the issue of free speech in high schools.
Why not take fifteen minutes and learn a little bit about the subject you are commenting on.
http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Public-education/The-law-and-its-influence-on-public-school-districts-An-overview/Free-speech-and-public-schools.html
From the web site suggested James we read:
“Students and teachers are free to speak their minds on public school grounds. They can even wear T-shirts with messages,…,.
The reason is that the First Amendment’s Free Speech Clause requires courts and school districts to weigh and balance two forceful ideas that occasionally clash:
• The need for a safe, orderly school environment conducive to learning.
• The guaranteed American entitlement to speak or engage in expressive activity…..
WRONG: Making the student change or cover the shirt because it contains a political message….The First Amendment is not subject to a popularity contest, and in fact is meant to protect less popular views…..
The principle outlined in the case that still endures: To prevail, school officials must demonstrate that the speech would provoke “substantial disruption” of school activities or invade the rights of others. Using that measuring stick, the court concluded that wearing armbands is a form of symbolic speech “akin to pure speech” and that the act was a “non-disruptive, passive expression of a political viewpoint.” ”
I am surprised you would bring this site to my attention. It substantially supports what I have been saying – that over a very broad range the free speech rights of students must be respected.
As for violence, I would guess there are irresponsible and violence prone students on both sides just as I believe there must be responsible, non-violent students on both sides.
However, the article only mentioned the words of one student. That student was urging violence toward those who were displaying the flag.
If the concern of the reader has to do with violence then it is hard to ignore the call to violence spoken by the student who opposed display of the US flag.
I would argue that school administrators have an obligation to protect students and their non violent expression and take necessary steps to control violent students.
The effort to control students with violent tendencies should not include preventing non violent students from speaking out.
It is disrespectful to wear the Flag of the United States of America on an item of clothing! US Flag Code Section 7(d). T-Shirts receive a lot of abuse, washing them with a bunch of other dirty clothes, lying in a hamper or on the floor, spilling food on the front of the shirt, etc. etc. etc. – it is especially NOT supposed to be used to try to start a fight! Cinco De Mayo is a day that is a Celebration in the United States – NOT MEXICO! In Mexico, the battle of the Pueblo was an important skirmish – but they do not celebrate it very much at all. It IS a very important battle for the United States however. If the Mexicans did not defeat the French in that battle, the French would have been able to support the Rebels in the Civil War and you all would NOT have a right to free speech or the US Flag to honor. You people are so fuggin ignorant!
“It is disrespectful to wear the Flag of the United States of America on an item of clothing!”
There are many forms of protected speech that some might consider disrespectful. Does anyone think the school administrations response would have been any different if the students had tried to wear tasteful flag lapel pins? I doubt it. I don’t think the issues here have much to do with respect or lack of it.
” it is especially NOT supposed to be used to try to start a fight!”
The clearest indication we have from the article of any one trying to start a fight is the description of a boy who opposed display of the flag saying words to the effect ‘lets f*ck those boy up’.
Display of one’s preferred flag does not necessarily indicate an intention to resort to violence. Most of the time flag display has no such meaning.
I think a fair minded person would have to conclude that all students have the right to display the flag of their choice.
Wearing symbols of American flag, eagle or military branch is not an aggressive expression in our country, but is one of pride. Wearing symbols of another country is a person’s personal choice. Only when one becomes aggressive, that person only should be punished, not the group. The 9th circuit, as usual, blew this one.
Whether it is an expression of pride or not, it is disrespectful to the Flag of the United States of America. Stop trying to defend disrespect of our Flag, you would not do that in the case of someone burning our flag or spitting on it – this is the same. It is disrespectful, plain and simple. Whether the Court decision is correct or not may rest in the hands of the Supreme Court. It is clear that the ignorant punks were trying to start a fight with other US Citizens who they did not agree with. THAT is clear from the article and the court case. The school administration was correct in preventing these little violent punks from trying to agitate a fight. On any other day those same students probably get away with their disrespectful conduct towards our Flag and wear their flag t-shirts, spill their McDonalds secret sauce on it and then take it off at the end of the day and throw it in a dirty hamper with their shit stained underwear. You are advocating that these punk teenagers should be able to rub their shit onto and image of our flag – unbelievable!!!!
Bigfatmike says that
1. it matters that this is a public school, since the First Amendment restrains government action
2. it matters that younger people have their rights circumscribed to varying degrees depending on their age
3. it does not matter that a flag image is involved
James says
1. it matters that the 5th of May is involved
2. it matters that one group was trying to incite violence.
I agree with everything that Bigfatmike has said, and I agree with #2 of what Mike says, but only to the extent that “fighting words” are illegal.
The First Amendment and “academic freedom” both express the same value: that people should be able to express what they think.
The school felt a dangerous situation would be created, and the safety of everyone is more important than any so-called constitutional right. I believe that the school placed an unjustified “prior restraint” on the kids, and the school should have taken other measures before resorting to this one.
Correct any student who expresses prejudice whether in words or clothing.. Ban all clothing that shows partiality to another country.Require all students to adhere to new clothing requirements or suspension. I am third generation Mexican, but my love and heritage is the USA first and second.Teach in class the heroic actions of Americans from all races that gave their lives to live here for freedom..
Are you saying it is prejudice to wear the American flag? Or are you saying it is prejudice to wear the Mexican Flag? I am having trouble here. Or did you mean “preference”?
@ Randyjet…you wrote.” The Pilgrims were not unwelcome at all and were in fact recruited to the wampanogs side in warfare with their rivals. ” Not all. welcomed them. Just like now. second you wrote “otherwise the US Navy which at that time was the strongest in the world would FORCE him out.” Yep. FORCE is the correct word. Even though this was to Mexico’s advantage at the time, then what happened next? Hmmmm. who FORCED who out again?
WS are you sober? I was unaware the US went to war with Mexico after Napoleon and Maximillian were sent packing and the Max was shot. I also pointed out that the natives who were against the immigrants from Europe had the simple expedient of simply killing those they considered illegal immigrants. Think that we should use the old American method of welcoming illegal immigrants?
That’s right. That’s the tactic you would use. The. American way.
NO As I pointed out, that is the Native American way. Since you obviously do not follow the news, you would know that the US provides all illegals a free ride home, free room and board, free education for their kids, free health care. I would say we are too welcoming to illegals if anything.
I don’t read the long ones. The issue is not that complicated.
Randy, great job! You are one of the few that read. But, I think A was trying to get the point across that (since some commenters are stating not to celebrate 5 de mayo) Ok, so lets say-hypothetical- lets not celebrate 5 de mayo bc it has nothing to do with us–although in that case every thing would have someyhing to do with us either in common ground or etc.) You say the pilgrims were not unwelcomed? Not until they started to take over. That is why there were raids. While not all Native American were raiding, not all were welcoming. Just like today. Many Americans of Mexican decent had been here. When pilgrims took over, Mexicans were just given the option to stay and become an American or leave. And no, Killing was not the only way of the Native Americans. If it were true, then they wouldn’t have welcomed the pilgrims. And the land was for everone apparently, first come first serve. But then I guess became, I want it I claim it. Also, if the reason behind it was to instigate, then that would be a problem from either side. I wear the US flag as a reg. shirt. any day, but especially on the 4th of July bc I want to display my pride. I totally disagree with the decision to ban the flag and not the person (s) causing the problem. It is our right to wear what we want. If it is inappropriate, then it should be proven as to why. Sitting, together wearing the American Flag is not. Saying you prefer to or not to celebrate a holiday is not. Asking kids to change shirts bc you Feel it will cause a problem is not. Attacking the holiday, is not the answer. Start with the kids. They are wise and will learn a lot more if we start with the problem. Whatever it has been in the past years at that school. The pricipal could have handled it differently by getting the students to leave for causing a problem. But from what I read, they were doing nothing wrong. I just feel that once you start something like banning the American Flag, you are just causing more problems–because now it is—and the kids at that school would have sloved nothing in the end. thanks for reading this randyjet!
Wow, the sad thing is that 5 de Mayo is not the problem. I agree that many people do not know why it is celebrated ..(because although they are of Mexican descent, they are Americans first – and have never been to Mexico) and 2nd, it is not an American Holiday ( Its Mexican) . Last time I was at a school they were teaching kids about celebrating Kwanzaa (African), Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur (Jewish), Ramadan, Oktoberfest (Lost of drinking involved)(Germany) etc… because they want our kids to be tolerant of others. This is great bc I do believe in tolerance, but I do not agree with the banning on the American Flag. I think the issue was the students and why they chose to wear it on this day. Even if they did wear them in rebellion to 5 de Mayo, that is their right. As long as they did not start chanting something to provoke a fight or argument. In the same way if American students of Mexican descent decided to were the t-shirts with the Mexican Flag to a Fourth of July celebration. It is your right. Now, if it is proven that the white kids were doing it to provoke a fight, then the students should have been removed for starting a fight and if any kids responded to the kids wearing the American flag with violence or hatred, or anything else, they should be removed for not being tolerant of their decision. The more I learn about history, the more I learn that this country was taken away from the Native Americans because we could. Manifest Destiny. It means, we have the right to take away your land because we want it. Simple as that, and it continues to be this way. I think the US is a great country and I am proud to be an American, and we should focus on teaching our kids that we will continue to do the best to try and focus on issues, not race. The only reason Hispanics are thought of as an immigration problem is because they are right across the border. If Germany was next to us, there would be a “German Immigation Problem.” But what did we do? We chose to celebrate and make a holiday (German-American Day) that commemorates when 13 German families landed in Philadelphia and “founded”( in other words “crossed the border” ) Germantown, Pennsylvania, This was the first German settlement in the original thirteen American colonies. I think the Native Americans saw it as a huge immigration problem and now the immigrants are upset because other immigrants want their land back? I know we cannot reverse time, and we cannot change this. What can be done, is to come harder on any immigrants entering the US. Unfortunately, it is what it is. And don’t assume because a person looks Hispanic, they are not Americans. And don’t say” well, when my great-grandfather came, he learned the language, and put the American Flag first..” I agree. But it is not totally right, if this were true, then any immigrant would have said,” When my (fill in the nationality) great grandfather came to America, he learned the Native American language, and put their Native American beliefs first.”
A I suggest you read the book The Mayflower and read about the first European immigrants who were NOT illegal by the way since the Indians one had no laws, and two if they objected to the immigrants they simply KILLED them. Which is why a number of places got no immigrants. If we were to apply the old traditional Native American way of treating unwanted immigrants, we would simply KILL them. The Pilgrims were not unwelcome at all and were in fact recruited to the wampanogs side in warfare with their rivals. So while there was much injustice done to the Natives, it was mainly in the form of the US government not enforcing the treaty on the white settlers, and not doing what the US had promised in the treaties with them.
It is too bad that the history of the Civil war in Mexico and Napoleon III invasion is not taught along with the celebration. Wearing the American flag on that day is VERY appropriate since LIncoln TOLD France to get out of Mexico, otherwise the US Navy which at that time was the strongest in the world would FORCE him out. He also sent 20,000 rifles and ammunition to Juarez’ forces, and sent Gen Sheridan to the border in support of him. So Cinco de Mayo can be celebrated as our common fight against aggression from a foreign power.
@ruth
That implies the wearing of a flag itself, not the resemblance of a flag. Ie: not pulling a flag down off a pole and wearing it to a toga party.
@Starry
Interesting. A hard distinction to make however. Not sure if the wikipedia article supports that interpretation, making an exception (an exception) for a flag patch to be sewn on, and a flag lapel pin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code
Weren’t you people taught respect for the flag? We used to be taught the flag code in school:
§8. Respect for flag
d. The flag should never be used as wearing apparel,…
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm
Interesting, relevant, and good point. However that horse left the barn in 1967.
PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE PAID FOR BY OUR TAXES, WE NEED TO PROTEST SO LOUD THEY HEAR US IN MEXICO. THEY NEED TO WEIGH IN. IF YOU COME HERE FOR ‘FREEDOM’ DON’T BITCH THAT THE AMERICAN FLAG IS THERE TO GIVE YOU SHELTER.
Jennifer, if you read the story, the person who is ‘bitching’, as you so colorfully put it, is the school principle. Nobody else has said “shit”.
Protesting to Mexico would be a waste of time. You, as a taxpayer, have the right to do and say as you please, however.
What would you think if they changed the facts slightly, and the groups got together to burn each others flags on that day? Should that be allowed?
I do agree that the American students are being denied their rights. I have no particular problem with xenophobia.
A terrible decision! The court is granting a Heckler’s Veto!
Similar, but not exactly a heckler’s veto. Wearing the flag would be to “put down” the Mexican celebration. To “put it down” would to be to heckle. They are preventing a “heckler’s veto”, except it is not a veto; it is an alternate idea, with a oppressive motivation by the dominant culture. It is a xenophobia expression of disregard, but not a veto. But the ruling is a constraint on speech; admittedly, speech that we disagree with, but hardly beyond the pale.
I see no reason to state that wearing an American flag shirt is xenophobic any more than wearing one during Columbus Day. The FACT is that the only people who think it is xenophobic hate the American flag and the USA. THAT is the problem, not others wearing a different flag. So to state that it is wrong and should be punished for doing the same thing as one culture is xenophobic in the extreme and biased and oppressive. It is not the Mexican American students who are oppressed, it is the other American students who are being denied THEIR rights. I seriously doubt this ruling will stand long. It also is ahistorical as well since millions of Mexican Americans fought and died for the US flag and our common country.
I also have to laugh at the irony that those who are hot for praising their Mexican heritage agree with the old time racists who said that Mexican Americans were NOT real Americans. The whole fight over the past decades was to include Mexican Americans as part of the US. Now we have some of these same folks who think that they are NOT part of the USA. Which is it?
@randyjet
I think I have to agree with much of your observation. We have people telling us,with a straight face without a hint of irony or understanding, that we must suppress one group from flying their flag to assure a different group can celebrate a different flag.
Does it get any stranger?
Personally, I am not particularly keen on waving any flag. But for those who like that sort of thing, I think it is a wonderful, protected activity. I would much rather have people fly flags than resort to many of the other ways of expressing their opinion.
If I ever have to take a stand, let it be to support the right of people to fly flags and not with those who would prevent this form of symbolic expression.
.
It’s not xenophobic that they wear the American flag. It’s the reason that they wear the flag that is xenophobic.
I am glad you are so perceptive that you can read minds. The American flag has nothing to do with Cinco de Mayo since Mexico was NOT fighting the US,, and in FACT, Lincoln sent 20,000 rifles and ammo, plus troops to the southern border to assist Juarez in getting rid of the French. Now if the students wore the French flag or a portrait of Napoleon III, THEN that would be offensive. It is only the ignorant who would be upset at the US flag being displayed since the US was an ALLY of Mexico, not an opponent. I recall that in school when St Patrick’s Day came, we were allowed to wear green or orange depending on ones political preference. I don’t recall there being any fights over wearing orange. I guess that now wearing orange would be banned as well since in some folks eyes, that would be xenophobic too.
It does not take much in the line of mind reading to see that the “pro-American” team is wearing the flag on this day to show the “pro-Mexican” team who loves our great country more. They have a right to do it. It’s like a soccer match rivalry, and the school administration is reacting badly. I guess you are with the “pro-American” team.
Are they forgetting the Turn Of The Tide in LA a few years ago when overt display of the Mexican flag in a Mexican immigration protest lost the sympathy of tens of millions of Americans & turned the 300 million Americans occasion into an under the rug affair?
The Knize thing…?