In yet another indication of how extreme Bush officials were in their war on terrorism, the New York Times is reporting that Vice President Dick Cheney and others pushed former President George Bush to send troops into Buffalo New York to arrest a group of men accused of terrorism.
What is interesting about this story is that such use of military force was completely unnecessary and shows how Bush officials used terrorism to advance their agenda to expand the authority of the presidency. Many Bush officials like John Yoo, Viet Dinh and others had advocated radical views of presidential authority before 9-11. If true, this is the most obvious example of how 9-11 was viewed by Bush officials as an opportunity to achieve their objectives to re-structure the American presidency along the lines of what is often called an “imperial presidency.” The Bush people articulated a view that dwarfed even Richard Nixon who is most associated with the imperial presidency model.
The debate over a military intervention in the suburbs of Buffalo occurred in 2002 — precisely the time when the unlawful programs on torture and warrantless surveillance were ramping up. Indeed, the usual suspects were present in these meetings calling for extreme measures: the lawyers John C. Yoo and Robert J. Delahunty authored the primary memo supporting the move. They argued implausibly that the move would be supported by federal law since the president was recognized to have authority “to take military actions, domestic as well as foreign, if he determines such actions to be necessary to respond to the terrorist attacks upon the United States on Sept. 11, 2001, and before.”
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 generally prohibits the military from acting in a law enforcement capacity, but Bush officials were highly antagonistic toward the act and its limitations. Congress allowed Bush to expand the domestic use of the military after 9-11 — part of its passive and infamous legacy in the aftermath of the attacks.
The targets were the Lackawanna Six and the Bush officials wanted them declared enemy combatants and a military intervention launched. These were relatively low-grade terrorist wannabes who were convicted of material support — a relatively easy charge for prosecutors when they cannot prove actual terror plots or conspiracies. Mukhtar Al-Bakri, Sahim Alwan, Faysal Galab, Shafal Mosed, Yaseinn Taher, and Yahya Goba all received sentences of ten years or less. The very idea of intervening with active military units for such a group is further evidence of the opportunistic conduct of Bush officials to achieve their vision of an all-powerful chief executive. To his credit, Bush refused to order the military intervention.
Notably, most of the framers opposed a standing army rather than a people’s militia because of their fear of the tendency of the military in history to exert political and social control over countries. We have seen how a domestic role of the military in other countries has produced instability and abuses.
What is truly frightening is how close we came. A single person stood in the way of tearing down one of our most important legal and political traditions. The bar on domestic law enforcement activities distinguishes this country from other countries where the military holds tremendous power like Iran. The recent military takeover in Honduras is an example of the dangers. We have long believed that people raised under our freedoms (and particularly trained in our laws) would be opposed to such attacks on our traditions and values. Yet, a vice president and top legal advisers facilitated an effort that was not just unlawful but unnecessary. It shows that, even in the most successful democracy in history, we can still stand just one vote away from a path of abuse or even tyranny. The alarm over this story is magnified by the utter failure of both Democrats and Republicans in Congress to exercise checks and balances during this period. We came down to George Bush — no civil libertarian — to block this effort — though this may have been more of a political and legal calculation.
For the full story, click here.
Evidently the bushies thought the Posse Comitatus Act was one of if not the stupidest laws on the books.
http://blogdredd.blogspot.com/2009/07/stupidest-law-in-nation.html
shows how Bush officials used terrorism to advance their agenda to expand the authority of the presidency.
If true, this is the most obvious example of how 9-11 was viewed by Bush officials as an opportunity to achieve their objectives to re-structure the American presidency along the lines of what is often called an “imperial presidency.”
Who you kidding if true? They freakn ALLOWED and help FACILITATE 9-11 to do just that. The scary part is the sweep regulations that were past after 9-11 are in the hands of this executive officer. We have already seen he has adapted well to his predecessor. http://jonathanturley.org/2009/07/22/democrats-denounce-obama-for-bush-like-signing-statement-announcing-he-is-not-bound-by-federal-legislation/
IN THE FAMOUS WORDS OF BVM, THEY ARE ALL WAR CRIMINALS ARREST THEM ALL. what ever he says go BVM
I would not give Bush credit for turning down Cheney and the rest of the neocon cabal. Even he realized how stupid and dangerous such a move would be. These so-called terrorists were less dangerous than Cheney himself. The law and obviously Congress at the time, did not deter them from wanting to dangerously increasing Presidential power. This is additional evidence that Yoo and Cheney and many others need to be investigated by AG Holder for torture and for other crimes.
rafflaw it will never happen, if it does total chaos will erupt in this country because of the difference between right and left. It appears to me and becomes more and more clearer that Igor Panarin is right on track in his prediction that the United States will break up. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3521671/US-will-collapse-and-break-up-Russian-analyst-predicts.html
US: Guaranty Trust of Texas is out of money and will be taken over by the government. This will be the largest bank failure so far in 2009.
Watch this video from Rolling Stone, the most compelling video yet.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/674.html
You got that backwards. “[I]f it [DOESN'T HAPPEN] total chaos will erupt in this country because of the difference between right and left.” When the law is lawless, there is anarchy. When the law functions as designed, there is justice.
bdaman, I have to say you are a growing disappointment. You’ve gone from simply being eccentric to just towing the apologist/anti-punishment propaganda line – just from the back hand side – you’re all for it, but it’s bad for the country. Well I’m calling bullshit on that too. NOT upholding the law is what is bad for the country in this instance. Injustice breeds conflict.
And relying upon BVM for anything of credibility? It only makes you look like an actual troll. Which I don’t think you are, but man, you are certainly starting to smell like one.
Buddah when I first came here and started posting here my first post, which I looked for the other day and I wish I could remember it word for word. It basically said Obama would continue with the same old Bush policies and protect Bush. I remember Mike S. calling me a neocon, you called me a troll, Rafflaw called me whatever. We have seen that Obama has continued the same old Bush policies and he is protecting him with his statement that we should look forward and not behind. We have also seen that Obama with a mere slip of the tounge has fired up Police unions accross the country. The majotity of which endorsed McCain. I leave it at that. BVM calls for the arrest of Bush just as much as he calls for the arrest of Obama. If one acts like the other (Bush/Obama) then if it walks like a duck and quacks like one, it must be a duack.
Hey Buddah jump over to the climate change I want to share something with you. Might take me a couple of minutes but check back at that thread.
No thanks, I’m done with your science education. That little experience has only shown me you are what teachers sometime refer to as “a difficult learner”.
Speaking of learning, you need to learn to distinguish that this ISN’T a pro-Obama site. It’s a pro-Constitution, civil/human rights and Rule of Law site if it must be characterized as anything other than the Prof.’s salon. The Cult of Personality is much derided here. None of which changes that you’re wrong here about prosecution being bad for the country. Not just a little wrong, but flat out staggeringly wrong. If you don’t think trials will happen, fine, that’s your opinion, but perpetuating that meme that “justice is bad for the country”? That’s pure trolldom whether rooted in simple ignorance or actual malice toward the Constitution. It helps the criminals get away.
“The alarm over this story is magnified by the utter failure of both Democrats and Republicans in Congress to exercise checks and balances during this period. We came down to George Bush — no civil libertarian — to block this effort — though this may have been more of a political and legal calculation.”
*******************
Whew, that was close. Proof again, I suppose, that God, him(her)self, “God looks after drunks, little children and the United States of America.” I just am not sure whether Bush is the first or second option.
I agree with rafflaw that this at least should be, one more crime to investigate. Remember that Blackwater was hired by FEMA/Homeland Security and was first on the scene, armed to the teeth, shooting people in New Orleans. That news never got much play and to my knowledge, the shootings have never been prosecuted. We now have an official unit of the army on American soil to “maintain order in civilian crowds” in direct violation of the law. This week we may all anticipate FEMA NLE09 as bdman pointed out.
The transition between Obama and Bush has been seamless and I think we have had our coup already.
http://www.fema.gov/media/fact_sheets/nle09.shtm
bdaman,
My apologies. I did just scan the message on the other thread and I jumped the gun. Thanks for the link. Space is a beautiful place and I think you’re a good person despite back and forth – but the prosecution is bad for the country line could become a serious problem I will stipulate. It’s a bad idea that a good person should not propagate.
To All The Regulars,
Please forgive me if I am a bit out of sorts for the next few weeks. It is unintentional and will pass. Wounded animals sometimes bite and snap.
America – Germany
Neocons – Nazis
Regular Military – Wehrmacht
DHS/Zee nee Blackwater/CIA “contractors” – Gestapo and SS
An illegal seizure of power – An illegal seizure of power
A steady decline in human and civil rights – A steady decline in human and civil rights
Ineffective and/or complicit representation – Ineffective and/or complicit representation
Economic turmoil exploited by fascist co-conspirators – Economic turmoil exploited by fascist co-conspirators
Repression of “state defined undesirables” – Kristalnacht
What’s next? – The Final Solution (to rights and liberty for anyone not involved in the conspiracy, vanished into black prisons if not unmarked graves if they demand justice, law and humanity applies to all and not just the sociopaths)
Correlation is not causation comes up often around here. But a pattern is a pattern.
I look forward to being a “Good American” if this pattern holds.
What is interesting about this story is that such use of military “force was completely unnecessary and shows how Bush officials used terrorism to advance their agenda to expand the authority of the presidency.”
It is called the law of Compliance.
Buddha,
No problem. We all have a snap or two on here. Jill, I am not sure that we had a coup already, but the election was supposed to be something of a radical change in direction for the country. While Obama has done many things correctly, he is being stupid in the civil rights and national security area. I am still hopeful that will straighten out, but my patience is gone. This business of Bush not listening to Cheney is just more of the same post Bush administration spew intended to polish up a felonious regime. I concur with Buddha that without the rule of law, anarchy will reign. Just the fact that there was a discussion of the possibility of using US troops on US soil is an insane discussion. If Bush and his other “advisors” were real patriots, they would have had Cheney committed at that time and place. It probably would have saved lives.
Long is the shadow of Nixon’s Pardon that it still falls upon the nation. It taught little rummies and cheneys and wolfies that no consequences shall be forthcoming for, why, anything, anything at all.
Prosecutions are required not only to remedy the past, but to reign in this new President, who is receiving uncommonly bad advice regarding his predilection to continue to guzzle the power that is not his, but was granted him by a terrified Congress, all to feed the dying soul of the previous Vice President, a terrible Vaal that continues to receive offerings through this moment.
Congress has the power to fix this. Congress has the power to restore fear into the words “congressional subpoena.” It’s the second half of the necessary Pincer Move, with Eric Holder on the t’other claw.
We must continue to demand they act, loudly, and repeatedly.
Buddha,
Love you man and even in your waspish modality you are great.
Bdaman,
Despite areas of sympathy with him you have to realize what a moron BVM is and a mechanical one at that. He is troll personified, but we keep him around to remind us of just how crazy and dumb this country can get.
JT,
While I agree with your premise that this was more of the expansion of Presidential powers and Imperial Presidency game, I think there is an element that we must add to round out our understanding. Cheney, Yoo, et. al. are psychologically fascist in outlook and while their actions did meet the expansion of powers agenda, they saw nothing wrong with their thinking from simply their limited viewpoints.
These men literally see the world as fascists do and I surmise that because of it there is no introspection or guilty consciences among them. They would have been quite comfortable as Courtiers in some medieval King’s Court, vying for his approval and believing in the divine right of his kingship, even as they might plot his replacement and their accession. They probably understood that GW Bush was a dim bulb, but they kowtowed to his heritage which to them was as aristocratic as an American can get. What took them above the feudal level, into fascism, is that they also feel the same deference to the hugely rich and to the large corporate entities.
The hyperventilating among many of the commentators is really too much.
This plan was DISCUSSED!@!!!!, not enacted, DISCUSSED!!!@! as all options should be at a time of war and likely have been by probably every single U.S. president. I truly don’t understand the intellect of some of those who are so blinded by Bush hatred that they make so overreaching statements.
Apologist must?
Apologist much?
Apologist always appear in a rush.
I truly don’t understand the intellect of some of those who are so blinded by Bush hatred that they make so overreaching statements.
Well now we come to the crux of the matter. You assume the requirement we all follow the rule of law to be an act of hatred. I personally do not legitimately hate anyone. As a citizen bound by the Constitution, I demand accountability from our elected officials at all times. Not because I hate them, but because the law requires it.
You also act like discussions of illegal activities is “no big deal.” Tell that to Nixon’s tapes. You further compose yourself as though this was the ONLY thing they attempted. Not just an apologist, but one living in a univese the diameter of a golf ball.
What is truly sad is the GOP has a real chance to get back into the game in 10 minutes by joining in a law-and-order restoration movement. The axe will fall, and what side do they want to be on? It’s into the Alaskan Wilderness, otherwise.
Pax,
M.
Buddah I’m not saying I don’t think that they shouldn’t be prosecuted I’m saying it will never Happen because Obama will make sure it doesn’t Bush=Obama Obama=Bush
Buddha is Laughing:
have you ever read a book called Ominous Parallels by Dr. Leonard Peikoff?
here is an excerpt from the book:
“It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole…that above all the unity of a nation’s spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual…”
“This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture….The basic attitude from which such activity arises, we call- to distinguish it from egoism and selfishness-idealism. By this we understand only the individual’s capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow men.”
Great thoughts arent they?
After a revelation like this, although it seems they come more and more frequently, you got to ask yourself one question..Just how much evidence does Holder need to put these people in JAIL???
Where is the line? Who finally decides enough is enough?? IF something doesn’t manifest itself soon, I’m concerned that the people will take the decision in their own hands…Why are John Yoo and the rest of the lawyers involved in this kind of activity allowed to stay in the ABA and/or continue to practice/teach???
Haven’t seen Cheney on the tube lately,the daughter seems to have picked up the gauntlet.Lets see if she will run with this one.
Whose Legacy is Being Tidied Here?
By: Teddy Partridge Friday July 24, 2009 7:25 pm
” In deliberations that relied upon the Yoo/Delahunty 10/23/01 memo that found the President’s powers to fight terror to be almost limitless, former Vice President Cheney argued for the use of US troops to takedown the Yemeni cell in Lackawanna, NY, in 2002. Is this legacy-polishing week for the Bushies, after the TIME article and Cheney’s pushback on Scooter? Perhaps — the NYT mentions Condoleezza Rice as among those who fought to have law enforcement handle the terror cell.”
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/6641
A Brief (Ah but you know me by now)Historical Reminder to All My Disaffected Friends.
The 60′s dawned with the look of a new age, especially for those like myself who had grown up under threat of Cold War nuclear exchanges, McCarthy’s demagoguery and the puritanical
enforced conformity that even viewed Elvis as a threat to society. Suddenly, on the scene came a relatively young politician who spoke of hope and promised the dawn of a new age. He nevertheless inherited a Cold War mentality on the part of the Military/Industrial/Congressional complex and an absurd plan to unseat Castro.
He also inherited an FBI, run like the KGB by JE Hoover, whose main business was surreptitiously getting evidence of sexual misconduct by prominent people to control them and maintain his power. He also inherited an out of control CIA run by Alan Dulles who pre-WWII had taken part with his brother JF Dulles and Sen. Prescott Bush bank that finance NAZI rise to power. Sen. Bush had also been alleged in a plot to enlist much decorated General Smedley Butler to perform a military coup in 1934 to remove FDR.
On JFK’s desk was a CIA plan, initiated by Nixon, to overthrow Castro. It was a cockamamie plan that completely misread Castro’s entrenchment, but had gone so far along and was so supported by his “intelligence experts” that he let it happen. What he hadn’t realized was that he wasn’t being told the full truth and that there had always been an expectation by the planners of US military support, however, Nixon had lost the lection unexpectedly.
When the invasion became a debacle his intelligence advisors and the military urged US involvement, which he prudently refused to do and so all the invaders got killed or caught.
This gained the enmity of the CIA and of the Cuban refugee population. In the stupidity of Cold War terms the USSR viewed this as displaying weakness on JFK’s part as did many powerful elements of the M/I/C complex.
As fallout from this JFK fired Alan Dulles from the CIA, making a serious enemy and had RFK try to rein in JE Hoover making another deadly enemy. When he later had a summit with Khrushchev, he was ailing from his hidden Addison’s Disease and a bad back and so further impressed Nikita as a weak young man to take advantage of. This led directly to the Cuban Missile Crisis, where a more violent solution was pushed by the Military and by the Cold War hardliners, but which he resisted, making even more enemies.
The final straw was that despite his reluctance JFK was forced by a sense of decency to begin to assist the CR Movement and that was it. He was done away with and it was all tied to LH Oswald, who life has the makings of made up fantasy for all those interested in investigating. The Warren Commission which did the investigation was chaired by Alan Dulles and had JE Hoover at the table supplying the investigation arm. It was such a tissue of lies that even today most Americans don’t believe it.
JFK dies, but unexpectedly it releases the makings of a an
anti-establishment Movement, which I was part of. My confreres and me with them, rather than reaching out for followers to create a majority coalition, alienated our natural allies with our excess in actions and rhetoric and it all shall we say is history. I could of course go on with this but I would only bore you with stuff you already know, or tire you with the tedium of my writing.
My point is simply this. Why would you believe that almost one half century since JFK’s death and after 8 years of the Bush/Cheney Crime Family, that it would be easy vanquishing this entrenched evil by simply becoming President? The attack on the rule of law and the Constitution has been going on since the US began. You are all smart enough to give me for instances of this ongoing attack against the Constitution and the rights of citizens.
What would you do in Obama’s place that would yield you more than a Pyrrhic victory, ending with you dead or discredited by a media controlled by Corporatists? This is not an easy battle and those we are aligned against are rich and certainly not as stupid as their minions are. I for one will never give up the fight, but old fart that I am with the state of my health, I’ve got a lot less to lose. I don’t plead with you to give up your beliefs and I do encourage your sense of outrage, but please I ask you to try to see beyond the rage, I know it’s hard for me too, and contemplate the nature of your enemy the better to defeat it.
Eric Hames:
“This plan was DISCUSSED!@!!!!, not enacted, DISCUSSED!!!@! as all options should be at a time of war and likely have been by probably every single U.S. president.”
*************
It is my experience that suicidal ideations such as this plan should not be ignored. They tend to be self-fulfilling.
Mespo72^3:
so now we are the thought police as well?
I cannot wait for the future!
Mike S.,
I’m going to grant your belief that Obama doesn’t take on Bush/Cheney because he will be killed if he does so. It is not my opinion but I will take it as the truth for purposes of argument here. Would you please explain to me why Obama needs to continue to torture people in Bagram and Gitmo so that he can stay alive. Would you please explain why Obama is grabbing dicatatorial powers over our detinees and US citizens, ones that don’t have anything to do with the protection of bushcheney, for the sake of his own life. If he wants to break down corruption why is he engaging in so much of it? Why is refusing transparency on health care when he campaigned on it? Why is he doing any of the things JT mentioned in his blog summary a few days ago?
If he were simply avoiding taking on bushcheney that would be one thing, but grabbing dictatorial powers for himself is quite another. When Bush did the power grab after 9/11, the people who opposed him saw it for exactly what it was, a power grab. What Obama is doing is also a power grab and it needs to be called what it is or there will be too few people opposing him and it will be too late.
“It is my experience that suicidal ideations such as this plan should not be ignored. They tend to be self-fulfilling.”
Nice.
IS,
Plans to break the law are never proper, even in a so-called time of war.
Indentured Servant,
What are you trying to say by quoting Hitler?
Hitler’s Nazi Party Plank speech is an excellent quote when debating paternalistic laws, but I don’t understand what it has to do with Posse Comitatus.
The first picture is the “ABYSS” the second is cheney looking into same.
http://villageofjoy.com/controversial-art-by-david-cerny/
You guys know what? I’ve read through this report and through all the responses posted here and what amazes me is that 1) I can’t even begin to think about how to respond and 2) none of it surprises me.
the other day, Hair, was on HBO. Yes, that very sad movie Milos Foreman did of the landmark broadway play. Even though the movie disappointed, the music and the feeling and my connections to the Tribe brought back that this was supposed to be a time of peace and understanding, that the age of aquarious was real and the children including you and me Mike S were all part of it.
i know that getting all nostalgic is kind of lame but we really had something going on and it was pretty great for a while.
facing a dying nation
of moving paper fantasy
Bobesq:
that tyranny is tyranny whether from any spectrum. And that using the military to take police action is not a good idea.
Bobesq:
also Buddha made a comment above and noted that we were headed in a similar direction as NAZI Germany followed and so I provided a book that deals with that subject and a quote from Hitler that is the basis for the authors argument.
the remark “great thouhgts” was sarcasm.
Rafflaw:
the idea to use the military in a civilian capacity is not a new one and has been used by other administrations in the last 50 years. From the protection of students during integration to drug interdiction using Navel and Air Force assets.
I don’t agree with it being used, but it certainly is not a crime to think about contingencies.
Mr. Hames is incorrect. All options should not have even been on the table following 9/11. For what it’s worth, my view is that the rule of law is more important than literally anything else to the preservation of a constitutional republic. Further, the rule of law by definition cannot be preserved through military force. Its survival requires universal respect, and that respect must begin with the presidency. It is for that reason that I have been deeply disappointed in the failure of the Obama administration to recognize and fulfill its most important duty, the restoration of the rule of law in this country.
We all must continue to insist that Mr. Holder appoint a special prosecutor and that the investigations begin. They should be permitted to go wherever the paths may lead and prosecutable offenses must be prosecuted, regardless of party affiliations. Until that happens there will be no unity and we will continue to fragment along ideological, cultural and ethnic divides.
Indentured Servant,
Fair enough, I simply didn’t understand where and how you were using the quotes.
One note on tyranny though.
Tyranny is not, as you say, tyranny. Bush and Cheney colored their rhetoric with the term when attempting to justify invading Iraq; implying that Americans have an implicit duty to fight tyranny wherever it may occur. That’s incorrect.
Tyranny, in form and function, is the first and foremost enemy of the constitution. However, tyranny, by definition, is a uniquely DOMESTIC ENEMY. It occurs when OUR rulers exercise power beyond which no one has a right to.
Per the Posse Comitatus Act, it would appear that granting such a vague authorization for use of military force (i.e. the 9/11 authorization) quite possibly could have trumped Posse Comitatus had they actually sent troops into Buffalo.
To Wit: That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons HE DETERMINES planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
Moral of the story: Don’t cry tyranny when you’ve handed the president the keys to all three branches simply because you were ‘afraid’.
They clearly didn’t do that. End of Story.
However, the Clinton Administration, with the direct assistance of Janet Reno (the AG), Eric Holder (a key point person, as the assistant AG) and Gregory Craig (an attorney for Elian Gonzalez father and the Castro Regime AND NOW A KEY ADVISOR TO OBAMA), betrayed the Rights of Elian Gonzalez and EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN when Federal agents stormed into the bedroom of a child and held him at gunpoint. This violent act was an egregious and blatant disregard against illegal search and seizures, under the 4th of Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. Under Federal Law, family custody disputes are to be handled in STATE COURTS, and the family WAS COOPERATING IN THAT ENDEAVOR. An appropriate family judge with experience in those matters would have heard both sides of the family and came to an informed determination one way or another as to the custody claims. As a citizen, Elian Gonzalez’ rights were abrogated when the Clinton Administration decided by fiat after secret discussions with the Castro Government through their socialist go-between Greg Craig. Only for Fidel Castro would the Feds violently attack its own citizens! Regardless where one stood on the issue of his return or not, he was not afforded a day in court, as a naturalized citizen, which he was upon setting foot here. But since it’s one of those so-called right-wing Cubans, the media saw fit to ramp up the rhetoric and claim political posteuring by a family, and now Elian is in Cuba, for years he has been brainwashed, and used as REAL propaganda all over that country, with no mentions by those such as Craig, Holder or the media. These people are all hypocrites. The Federal Agents trespassed on the rights of ALL Americans on that fateful day. And everyone should be outraged, as THESE are the precedents of things to come.
CLINTON, HOLDER & CRAIG…
“SENT” ARMED TROOPS TO MIAMI
TO SWEEP A CHILD AT GUNPOINT(Read above)
Bob,Esq.:
“Moral of the story: Don’t cry tyranny when you’ve handed the president the keys to all three branches simply because you were ‘afraid’.”
******************
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
–Ralph Waldo Emerson
Bobesq:
degr
I agree whole heartedly with you on that score. “What evil lies in the hearts of men only the shadow knows”
Freedom is a tenuous concept and forces beyond our comprehension seem always ready to snatch it away for trivial reasons. It is a pity as freedom is mans natural and appropriate state by virtue of his free will and rational mind.
Evil is manifested by a desire to control the minds of other men and a total disregard for the individual and his desires.
I cannot believe anyone is getting worked up over something that was discussed but not done! Look around people, our country is being taken over by a textbook radical, statist, fascist, Marxist dictator in the making!
In about six months, you all are going to wish that W and Cheney were still in power, because you will not recognize the United States of Obamaland.
“I cannot believe anyone is getting worked up over something that was discussed but not done!”
************
Personally, I can’t believe that the fine folks who built the Titanic pooh-poohed the notion that something so big could ever sink.
And if you think that’s not bad enough, we’ve got religious nuts “worked up” over things that never, ever happened nor will ever happen!
Hey Mespo!
How’s that shiny new kitchen?
Patty C:
Appliances coming Monday … or so they claim under penalty of flogging. I am using my electric Dutch Oven and this great little appliance that is a rotating pizza oven. I use it for all manner of open face sandwiches. I can also report I am a “regular” at the Whole Foods salad bar!!
IS,
One correction in your response earlier. The soldiers that you referenced in the civil rights integration cases were state national guardsmen that were federalized, not active troops used in place of the FBI or police. The Naval and Air Forces were used in US waters on the coast and in territorial waters surrounding the States. Sending troops into Buffalo is nowhere near the same situation. Cheney was planning on breaking the law for the purpose of expanding Executive power.
Glen Greenwald’s article on the subject
check out the highlighted memo portions
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/07/25/military/index.html
Test- I can’t seem to post to this thread.
Strange- I’m getting a “duplicate message” comment when trying to re-post my actual comment that I posted before my test but it doesn’t show up. ?
People this so called breach of law ( of course he could do it legal) by Bush never happen. Also for your edification this was over 7 yrs. ago. If you don’t know this is a ploy by BO and his minions to misdirect the overwhelming problems BO has, then you have your head up your back side. Get over it. We have enough problems with whats going on in the country from this racist president.
LOL
Someone dubbing themselves “Voice Of Reason” manages to complain about the complaints about things Republican Bush/Cheney didn’t do, even while the Republican Bush/Cheney had plans on the table to commit unconstitutional acts and in other cases clearly committed unconstitutional acts, and then manages to turn around and immediately complain about a fantasy future that only exists in the fevered imagination of fools and fanatics.
Right winger “Voice of Reason” is completely disconnected from ‘Logic’, ‘Facts’, ‘Reality’, or even the internal consistency of their own argument
More seriously, it’s stunning to read and hear right wing proponent’s of an authoritarian military regime trumping the Constitution.
For those right wingers here that recognize the extremely dangerous precedents set by the Republican Bush/Cheney administration, thank you for your voices (especially you, Prof.).
mespo writes Appliances coming Monday … or so they claim under penalty of flogging. I am using my electric Dutch Oven and this great little appliance that is a rotating pizza oven. I use it for all manner of open face sandwiches. I can also report I am a “regular” at the Whole Foods salad bar!!
a new kitchen? wow. we did our master bath last summer. i had this big scene over at home depot when I went to buy tools of destruction and the guy there laughed at me. anyway. the bathroom is fabulous and my squeeze and I did it all ourselves except the plumbing. happily the kitchen in out 1988 house was already done by the previous owners who had this incredible artist do the glass for the cabinet doors , the lighting fixtures and pantry door.
you will love it when its all finished.
lottakatz:
when that happens just type “test” at the top and it will post.
I keep wondering when the full truth will be known.
Americans are being psychologically harassed in communities across this county and it would appear that there may be government involvement. The mere mention of these harassment campaigns raises eyebrows and complainants are dismissed as “delusional.” Some who report these crimes (surreptitious home entries, vandalism of property, persistent surveillance) may have been a little crazy in the first place and others have probably been tipped in the direction of “crazy”, but some are as sane as the next guy (which, I’ll allow, may not be saying much).
I’m a mental health professional — I first heard about this from patients and kept an open mind. I’ve seen it myself now, but it’s so incredibly unbelievable that it continues.
How it’s going to be exposed and stopped is quite beyond me.
quote from article:
“What is truly frightening is how close we came. A single person stood in the way of tearing down one of our most important legal and political traditions. The bar on domestic law enforcement activities distinguishes this country from other countries where the military holds tremendous power like Iran.”
We’re STILL in jeopardy. We still don’t know the truth of what went on and continues to this day.
Johnny Martz, you have misstated what occurred with Elian Gonzalez. First, the military was not dispatched to Miami. There is a difference between agents of the various federal agencies and the armed forces. Second, no rights of Elian Gonzalez were violated in any respect.
If you have any familiarity with the fundamentals of family law, then you should understand that parental rights trump political ideology. The right of children to be reared, loved and educated by their natural parents has deep roots in the common law. Indeed, we have long recognized that the state cannot interfere with those relationships except in the most egregious of circumstances. But even in the absence of controlling legal authority, one would think that common human decency would have compelled the prompt return of Elian so that he could grieve the loss of his mother in his own home with his own father. Instead, he was used as an unwitting concript and standard bearer for those political forces whose bitterness toward the Castro regime obliterates any coherent reflection on other concerns.
The attempt to justify what was in effect a form of kidnapping by the assertion that Elian would be better off in the U.S. was presumptuous and arrogant. No rational person would dispute the proposition that we do not have the right as a people to detain foreign children because we have concluded in our wisdom that their countries are impoverished, socially repressive or politically repugnant.
The decision to return Elian to his father was wholly in keeping with long established principles of law. That he would eventually be returned was a foregone conclusion. But we first had to endure a media sideshow, the misguided outrage of remote relatives and the political manipulations of right-wing Republicans. In the end Elian returned to Cuba not as a beneficiary of our compassion, but as a victim of our cynicism. And to emphasize the brilliance of our political establishment, we managed to provide immense propaganda fodder to the Castro regime in the process.
You may utilize as many capital letters as you wish in your posts, but you are way off the mark on this issue.
“What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.”
–Ralph Waldo Emerson
—
VERY deep-dish, my friend…
And so I must inquire, how’s the culinary construction coming?
Mike Appleton:
your comments are disturbing, Elians mother died crossing from Cuba to the United States. I may not be the brightest bulb in the class but it seems to me she was making a very concrete statement about what she wanted for little Elian, the father probably agreed to it as well. She was willing to risk his life and her own so that he could live in the US. I should think the wishes of a dead parent would count for something in our legal system.
Since most on this site seem willing to live under Castro than chance death, I can understand their total inability to understand Mrs. Gonzales’s strength of will and nobility of spirit.
That he was sent back was a travesty and a stain on the Clinton justice department. It always amazes me that “progressives” are all about the children, pardon me if I don’t believe it after that show of “justice” (read force).
His return to Cuba was used as political propaganda by the Castro regime to very good effect.
Patty C:
Very deep dish indeed — but I can claim no credit for it. On the kitchen front, I am suffering appliance envy every time I peer through a restaurant kitchen serving door. Right now, I am awaiting delivery of range and refrigerator. “Maybe tomorrow,” I am told fervently, or should I say furtively. The cabinetry is in, and the granite is on order with templates made. I am hoping for late next week. Until then, I vacuum sawdust in earnest.
GW:
“I had this big scene over at home depot when I went to buy tools of destruction and the guy there laughed at me.”
************
You are a braver soul than me. I am anxiously watching my walls being demolished, my floors being stripped, and my schnauzer shivering in armature induced fear. Every clang and bang downstairs leads me to the inevitable conclusion that my kitchen space will be declared a landfill once this is over. I have few mechanical skills, and less inclination to learn. And this all from the son of the Director for Vocational Instruction. Dad went to his shop in the sky before I started this project, thank God for that.
mespo writes: You are a braver soul than me. I am anxiously watching my walls being demolished, my floors being stripped, and my schnauzer shivering in armature induced fear. Every clang and bang downstairs leads me to the inevitable conclusion that my kitchen space will be declared a landfill once this is over. I have few mechanical skills, and less inclination to learn. And this all from the son of the Director for Vocational Instruction. Dad went to his shop in the sky before I started this project, thank God for that.
maybe we could use a place to share our home improvement stories. poor little schnauzer…I assume you have a mini, I can’t imagine a std or giant shivering for global nuclear war. my first dog was a mini. game little guy. loving. friendly. once peed in a very expensive handbag when he wasn’t getting the attention he felt he deserved. he had all the bad dog habits. he was a leg humper, barker, furniture leg chewer, and would run for city limits if the front door opened a crack.
don;t worry about your kitchen. as long as your guy knows what he’s doing you’ll be fine. just expect that it will take twice as long and cost 1/3 more than you planned. even with my bathroom, which was DIY, there were roadblocks. at the end of the project when you are whipping up something fabulously cuisinee like melted cheese on a tortilla in your new microwave while drinking a Red Stripe it’ll all be perfect.
IS, although we may disagree, your comment that “most on this site seem willing to live under Castro than face death” is gratuitous and beneath you, as is your further comment about what I understand and don’t understand.
I have practiced law in Florida for 37 years. Despite my numerous deficiencies, there are at least two things I do understand: the law of Florida and the people of Florida.
The debacle surrounding Elian Gonzalez was not the product of a government run amuck, but of emotional hysteria promoted and encouraged largely by hard core elements in the Cuban-American community in Dade County.
The law is simple. When one natural parent dies, the surviving parent becomes the sole custodial parent. Following the tragic death of Elian’s mother, the normal course of action would have been to return Elian to his father. Enter the politicians. Elian’s father ultimately required the services of a lawyer to enforce the law.
The opposition to Elian’s return was not based upon legitimate fears that his father was abusive, or had abandoned his son or was in any way unfit. Instead, it relied upon the assertion that Elian would be “better off” living in the United States than with his own family because of the political system under which his country was governed. The rights of Elian and his father were wholly ignored during the ensuing political battle and the court was pilloried over what was an eminently correct ruling.
I have represented abused, neglected and abandoned children as a volunteer guardian ad litem for about 20 years. In many of those cases, I believed that the children would have been “better off” if they had different parents. I’m sure that you have made the same observation from time to time. Would you therefore be in favor of a government policy mandating that the children of families visiting from China be seized at the airport so that they do not have to return to life under a dictatorship? Should the daughters of families visiting from Pakistan, a country in which girls are frequently bound up at birth and tossed out with the garbage, be taken on arrival so that they can grow up in a country which values men and women equally? Should the government support the kidnapping of children living in tyrannical regimes? What about our domestic policies? Shall we endorse the forced separation of chilren from families suffering from the effects of alcoholism, drug addiction, ignorance or extreme poverty, or in which the parents have adopted values or lifestyles which fall outside of the mainstream in their community?
The only travesty in the Elian Gonzalez case was the willingness of people to use a child to further a purely political agenda.
Mespo,
You are a real trooper. I am empathetic.
I hope you saved all the sawdust. You, or any of the Fab Four
can make a kitchen witch(es) for Good Luck.
Or just make a ‘Sawdust Pie’ for the unveiling…
Sawdust Clay
This is very inexpensive to make, and the results are impressive. Children of all ages can use it, cleanup is easy, and one bucket of sawdust will last a long time.
2/3 parts fine sawdust (any kind except redwood)
1/3 part flour
Water
Large bowl or bucket
Wooden spoon
To mix the clay, use a large bowl or bucket. Mix 2/3 parts of sawdust and l/3 part of flour together. Pour in water and mix until it reaches a stiff but “squishy” consistency. Add more flour if it is too crumbly. The clay needs some kneading before the gluten in the flour becomes elastic, holding the sawdust together. Work it in your hands or on a table top covered with newspapers. Play with the clay a little until it becomes easy to shape.
This clay has a thick heavy texture and the best type of project seems to be “Indian” type pottery. Take large balls of clay. Push your thumbs together into the center, shaping the sides as you go for bowls and other containers.
Sawdust clay can also be rolled flat and cut into shapes with cookie cutters. Poke a hole in each cut-out with a drinking straw. When dry, string them with yarn to make simple wall decorations or Christmas tree ornaments.
This clay air-dries very hard. When dried in the sun, sawdust clay becomes very hard and can be sanded with sandpaper before it’s painted.
It should be placed directly in the sun, if possible. When dry, you can sand it or not, depending upon what you like. Use Tempera or acrylic paints to decorate the finished objects. To give your pieces a glossy coating, spray with acrylic clean finish or paint with acrylic floor wax.
—
Patti’s 1880s Restaurant Sawdust Pie
Source: Patti’s 1880s Restaurant – Grand Rivers, Kentucky
7 egg whites, unbeaten
1 1/2 cups granulated sugar
1 1/2 cups graham cracker crumbs
1 1/2 cups pecans
1 1/2 cups coconut
1 (9-inch) unbaked pie shell
Preheat oven to 325 degrees F.
Mix all ingredients together and stir by hand. Pour into unbaked pie shell. Bake until glossy and set (about 25 to 30 minutes). Do not overbake! Serve warm with sliced bananas and whipped cream.
Serves 8.
“most on this site seem willing to live under Castro than face death”
IS,
Come the revolution by those you’re most in sympathy with, most people on this site will face danger and possibly death, while you will be greeted with open arms by the Fundamentalist Christian/Corporatist/Free Marketeers. As I’ve previously said I hope for your sake you are wealthy enough to join the club, or then you will truly understand the horror of being an “Indentured Servant,” as will most of American society.
Mespo,
Had our kitchen done in other home years ago. What a horror. Re:
your father, mine was not at all handy around the house, but had friends who were. I can fix toilets and plumbing for some weird reason, since Jewish guys are not known for their handiness. I even took the Home Depot install a toilet course and actually installed one all by my lonesome. I also do wall painting and general handiwork to the amazement of my wife and our Jewish friends. However, I find the ability to install toilets is a limited skill, with few opportunities to practice it. Hope it’s done soon and your pleasure in it juices your culinary creativity.
Mike Appleton:
Kudos to you for being an advocate for children.
so the wishes of a dead mother mean nothing? Elian had close relatives in Florida. The father in Cuba probably had a choice-either go to prison or hire a lawyer and get your son back. There could have been even more coercive efforts on the part of the Cuban government.
Detaining Chinese or Pakistani children who come to this country with their parents for a visit is in no way equal to the Elian scenario. That you would even equate them is dithering (not exact for grahpics) ridiculousness. Or maybe ridiculous dithering. I’ll let you choose.
Mike Spindell:
“IS,
Come the revolution by those you’re most in sympathy with, most people on this site will face danger and possibly death, while you will be greeted with open arms by the Fundamentalist Christian/Corporatist/Free Marketeers. As I’ve previously said I hope for your sake you are wealthy enough to join the club, or then you will truly understand the horror of being an “Indentured Servant,” as will most of American society.”
It is becoming more and more apparent to me that you probably dropped a little too much acid in your misspent radical youth. Corporations are not evil, the people that run them maybe. But most CEO’s are not evil mice like Brain intent on world domination. Your neo-Marxist outlook clouds your vision. For one thing workers are better off in a capitalist system, especially one that allows wages to fluctuate following the laws of supply and demand. Had the buffoonery of leftist economic thought not taken hold in the early part of this century, most likely due to eastern European influences, we would have a much more robust economy.
That you see conspiracy around every corporate corner is telling. But maybe you should look to your own political brethren as they seem to dominate most of the large investment houses in New York. It is not capitalists that you need fear but wealthy leftist that feed on the carcass of capitalism in the name of the proletarian ideal of equality of outcome and altruism.
I am an indentured servant not because of capitalism but because of the philosophy of altruism. I am not my brothers keeper, his health is not my responsibility, I do not owe his daughter a college education, her mortgage is not a lien on my life and work.
You call me evil? I say make a man work for what he has, that is how you build self esteem. Not by groveling for hand-outs from the government. A lion in a cage is the same as a man on the government dole. A pitiful creature who cannot fend for himself and at the mercy of his keepers.
You on the left fear free men and women because you have no hold on them, you cannot control them, they do not owe you anything. They do not grovel at the alter of government. They do not need you and that is what you cannot abide.
IS, your argument is with existing law. Appealing to the wishes of a dead mother may have some emotional power, but no mother, dead or alive, may unilaterally determine that the father of her children must forfeit the rights of a parent in favor of “close relatives.” Moreover, your position assumes that Elian’s father didn’t want him and was coerced into asserting his parental rights. That assumption in turn is based upon political views rather than facts. Has it not occurred to you that when Elian’s father came to the United States for the court proceedings, he could have readily secured asylum in this country if that is what he desired? Furthermore, why do you pretend to know the wishes of Elian’s mother? She was, after all, deceased when the controversy arose.
Your position is political rather than legal. That’s fine, but acknowledge it as such and recognize that the legal decision in the Elian Gonzalez case was not an aberration, but wholly in accord with the requirements of family law.
“It is becoming more and more apparent to me that you probably dropped a little too much acid in your misspent radical youth. Corporations are not evil, the people that run them maybe. But most CEO’s are not evil mice like Brain intent on world domination. Your neo-Marxist outlook clouds your vision. For one thing workers are better off in a capitalist system, especially one that allows wages to fluctuate following the laws of supply and demand.”
IS,
My mind is fine thank you and had you perhaps dropped some acid in your youth you might actually have an understanding of the human condition and learned to care more about your fellow humans, other than just the ones you love, or like.
Now being called a Marxist is quite another thing since I have already written extensively on why I’m not and never was a Marxist. Unfortunately, those programmed with “free market” nonsense have rather strange visions as to what constitutes Marxism, that is usually informed through ignorance and reading too many romantic novels, written by a confused Russian Emigre, whose parents longed for the good old days of Tsar Nicholas, who with his aristocrats was even worse for the
people than the psychotic communists who followed. Considering that Stalin killed about twenty million people and
was a rabid anti-Jew, it was pretty bad before the revolution,
but Ayn’s parents were wealthy then so they didn’t care.
I’ve actually known and opposed communism on the front lines of the movement, while all you’ve done is spend a life in search of money. Now if you really understood what Adam Smith meant when he coined the phrase “free market” and had some insight beyond the talking points you so guilelessly inhaled,
you might have known that Smith himself talked of an unfettered “free market” being a danger, unless under tight government control. Don’t take my word for it check me out by going to the source.
I have never said that corporations are per se evil, but I have in the past frequently explained why they do evil. The sole purpose of a corporation is to produce profit, in any way it can. That in itself is neutral. However, the people who have been running the largest corporations in the US, have since the days of the bad actor’s presidency, been creating profits at the expense of the US and its citizens, while at the same time enjoying benefits of government largesse far beyond their rightful share. Corporate greed, such as Enron creating blackouts in California to raise their rates has gone beyond reasonable measure and by its overreaching in search of profit has entered into a realm which need to be controlled by the government.
What you seem to lack the capacity to understand is that there is no “free market” that by its nature regulates commerce. Not only has that never existed but history past and recent is so replete with instances of corporations trying to destroy “free markets,” that it would take volumes of books just to document them. You tell me how oil that costs
$20 barrel at the well head, goes for $67 barrel right now and was in the $120 barrel range some few months back. It’s known as a manipulated market, not a free one. The main profit making mechanism for corporations over the past 150 years has been through manipulating the market, either as a monopoly or a cartel.
“For one thing workers are better off in a capitalist system, especially one that allows wages to fluctuate following the laws of supply and demand.”
Yes, how has that worked out for the American industrial worker, who is forced to compete against, dare I say it, indentured servitude in China, Russia and the far East? Tell me how the average Chinese worker has benefited from their change over to a market economy? Not one wit has their lot improved and that is because whether communist, or capitalist these countries still have the same oligarchy in power. Now in the US we are reaching the point where we are little better, but that hasn’t happened quite yet. The philosophy that you espouse will get us there soon and then you can enjoy the great benefits of indentured servitude, while old Acid Heads like me who have been trying to save people like you will be rounded up. As I said I hope you’ve got a lot of cash, or perhaps it will be your progeny selling their organs cheap, or working at slaves wages for the Corporations that will have morphed into monoply’s in each line of endeavor.
Your trouble IS, is that you’ve ingested a whole bunch of lies and propaganda to shape your world view and so you are unable to see what is plainly obvious. It would be so nice if the world worked out like Ayn Rand, or the University of Chicago economic cabal said it would, but it doesn’t.
“I am an indentured servant not because of capitalism but because of the philosophy of altruism.”
This indicates how little you understand me. I follow Gestalt Philosophy and I believe altruism to be a crock. Where you miss the boat is that I believe that the “Golden Rule” is even smarter politics than it is religion. Henry Ford, that great Capitalist anti-Jewish industrialist understood that in terms of profit. By paying his workers higher wages, they could afford to buy his products. Unfortunately, the whole passel of MBA’s that has come to head our corporations in the last thirty years are so besotted with their wealth and power that they could care less about the long term viability of the Corporations. That’s one of the reasons the US has lost its industrial base, greed not necessity. As we drift into third world status because you free marketeers have screwed up the country, we will indeed see how well a “free market”
has worked.
“A lion in a cage is the same as a man on the government dole.”
Poor IS, dealing again with areas of which you know nothing. The Federal Reserve, a private institution set up and run by the banking industry has raised interest rates to stifle the economy every time unemployment drops and threatens to raise wages. No free market there. Since Reagan in the 80′s redefined unemployment the rate is double what the actual figures are. Basically, the bankers have maintained the true unemployment rate at never less that 8%, or approximately 24 million Americans are kept out of work to suppress wages and have been for many years. These people are on the “dole” to help your Corporate friends make money, but you in your totally selfish view of the world see them as laggards. It is a shame IS that you know so little of what you spout and so much is propaganda uninformed by any true understanding of the way things are. You’re not a bad person I assume and probably very likable, I would guess, but yes your outlook on the world causes evil, is uninformed and essentially ignorant.
Mike Appleton:
I freely admit my chauvinism for freedom, no evasion necessary.
I don’t think it takes a Jean Dixon to devine the wishes of a dead mother who just risked her life to cross 90 miles of shark infested waters. Were you serious when you wrote that I did not know the wishes of the mother? Maybe your political position blinds you to certain facts as well.
I truly hope you were joking when you wrote that, I do regard your opinions highly but that was just funny and if you were serious I will consider your opinions in the future with far less weight.
Mike Spindell:
“IS,
My mind is fine thank you and had you perhaps dropped some acid in your youth you might actually have an understanding of the human condition and learned to care more about your fellow humans, other than just the ones you love, or like.”
I like that, very good. I hung out with people who dropped acid and saw what they did when tripping. I even saved a few from thinking they were superman. I decided that I would pass on that experience and live it vicariously through friends. Actually come to think of it they are all democrats now. I wonder if there is any connection, mind altering/destroying drug, life altering/destroying philosophy, hmmm it is a thought.
Mike Spindell:
It sounds to me like you have swallowed at least a half glass of the Objectivist “Kool Aid” as well.
Where do I begin? I disagree with some of your points but not all. Enron was a disgrace for one. Henry Ford had it right. And a few other points we agree on but maybe not for the same reasons.
Should they come for you, you are welcome at my home. I have extra weapons and enough ammunition to protect us both. Although I am short on canned food, I do have chickens (4), a well and small garden.
By the way I do understand what I am talking about and have spent many years coming to the conclusions I have come to and holding the beliefs I have. It was not spontaneous acceptance, when I hear of people that read something once and accept the tenants proffered, I am wary and believe them to be like Tom Tuttle of Tacoma (John Candy and Tom Hanks played Peace Corps volunteers in a movie whose title escapes me).
IS I like that, very good. I hung out with people who dropped acid and saw what they did when tripping. I even saved a few from thinking they were superman. I decided that I would pass on that experience and live it vicariously through friends. Actually come to think of it they are all democrats now. I wonder if there is any connection, mind altering/destroying drug, life altering/destroying philosophy, hmmm it is a thought.
That is F”N hillarious
IS, each of us has to make his own decision about the value he places on the opinion of another. I know that we will never come to agree on what should have happened to Elian. I simply wish to note that my comment about the mother’s wishes was based upon the fact that neither you nor I ever spoke with her and I have never read a word (although I followed the controversy on a daily basis at the time) suggesting that she did not want Elian’s father to have custody of him were she to die. And more to the point, that was not her choice to make, and that is where you and I most strongly disagree. Your view is that we should ignore hundreds of years of common law and statutory authority and terminate without due process the rights of a surviving parent to his or her children if the surviving parent lives under a political system with which we disagree. Surely you can see that were that the law, it would be an open invitation to arbitrary interference by government in the most fundamental of social units. That is simply not a doctrine I could ever find acceptable, and I will leave it at that.
bdaman, I think history teaches us that the strongest mind-altering drugs are actually money and power.
A thanks to all of you for the kitchen empathy, and yes, my schnauzer is a miniature for those wanting to know. I literally just finished helping the two guys move the refrigerator into the space and after much sweating, grunting, and positive indicators for a lumbar MRI, I can say with absolute certainty that three guys simply cannot move a 500 pound refrigerator into my house–but somehow we did it. I agree with GW about the hassle and 1/3 cost overrun, but so what, I have renewed pride in my back’s capacity to lift. Ouch!
“Actually come to think of it they are all democrats now. I wonder if there is any connection, mind altering/destroying drug, life altering/destroying philosophy, hmmm it is a thought.”
bdaman,
I will agree that is a thought. Too bad you were to afraid to try it. It might have taught you a lot as it taught me and the friends you watched taking it. By the way the deal was when you tripped to always have an uptight, straight friend around who wasn’t tripping, as a safety precaution. My generation was far from stupid and there were plenty like you we could use as watchmen.
As for “life altering/destroying philosophy,” that seems right to me as a summation of what you and IS believe in. Now part of the reason that people like Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan hate us is because we were having all the fun and having sex with the most interesting women.
Incidentally, I chose a different path in my life, but many of my friends from back then did become Democrats and also wealthy in their various professions. I’ve done okay myself.
Sort of proves you can have your cake and eat it too.
“It sounds to me like you have swallowed at least a half glass of the Objectivist “Kool Aid” as well.”
IS,
If you think that because I don’t believe in altruism, you’ve got it wrong. I believe in humanism as informed by the teachings of Rabbi Hillel,The Buddha and Confucius, which is mostly the “golden rule.” Altruism is not needed to want to care well for your neighbor, common sense is though. As far as Gestalt Philosophy goes, that is merely a viewpoint for seeing oneself and the world and not at all political. To me people with logic instinctively understand that we are all part of the human race and it is in all of our best interests to take care of each other. As far as the need for shelter goes, thanks for your offer, but this “Old Tripper” is well equipped to take care of himself.
IS, if you can break away from Ayn Rand long enough, you might consider perusing a bit of Thomas Merton for an entirely differenct perspective.
Mespo,
So is your refrigerator the unseen gorilla in your kitchen?
Mike Appleton:
I think I’ll pass on Merton. I have been reading some things by Thomas Aquinas and will probably stick to that for my religious philosophy. Maybe St. Augustine as well.
I try to keep my mind in as pristine a state as possible. So I stay away from progressive philosophical works and other such intellectual pornography if at all possible. There are enough real philosophers to read first before Kant, Hegel, Marx and Engels and their assorted fellow travelers such as Heidegger, Sartre and Camus.
Actually the law talks about the best interest of the child. In this case I think it safe to say Elian’s best interest would have been served by him living with his aunt in freedom. Unless of course you believe in brutal dictatorships that trounce peoples rights and freedoms. In that case you are quite right, send him back and Bon Voyage.
mespo,
Obviously, kitchen witches won’t do it for you
- you need a WARLOCK..
My sincerest apologies,
Patty C.
IS,
Do true philosophers put cream on their oats?
Personally, I’m of the opinion that if your philosophy is so weak that you’ll be “corrupted” away from it by exposure to thoughts you might disagree with, then it’s probably not worth having.
“I try to keep my mind in as pristine a state as possible. So I stay away from progressive philosophical works and other such intellectual pornography if at all possible.”
IS,
Gyges is correct. If you are so afraid of differing opinions then there is a weak link in your chain of belief. I’m a Jew, yet I read all I can about other religious beliefs and non-beliefs. How can one know the truth of one’s beliefs i.fs he/she is afraid to test it with different beliefs?
Mike S:
“So is your refrigerator the unseen gorilla in your kitchen?”
*************
No Mike, it’s pretty visible, and will not be ignored! I’ll take Patty C up on her offer of a warlock. Better yet I need an exorcism.
BTW I learned at 7:00 p.m. that everyone – and I mean everyone – is showing up tomorrow at daybreak set appliances, install the counter tops and repair my double oven. Guess my yelling did something!
“…yet I read all I can about other religious beliefs and non-beliefs”
“non-belief” is a belief system too.
“Guess my yelling did something!”
Mespo,
Not to mention justifying the cost overruns. Good living and good cooking to you for many, many years and watch that fat and cholesterol.
Mike
mespo727272 1, July 28, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Mike S:
“So is your refrigerator the unseen gorilla in your kitchen?”
*************
No Mike, it’s pretty visible, and will not be ignored! I’ll take Patty C up on her offer of a warlock. Better yet I need an exorcism.
BTW I learned at 7:00 p.m. that everyone – and I mean everyone – is showing up tomorrow at daybreak set appliances, install the
counter tops and repair my double oven. Guess my yelling did something!
–
Ayah! Your yelling AND the turlee mojo…
… You got friends in LOW places, if you know what I mean!
Patty C:
“Ayah! Your yelling AND the turlee mojo…
… You got friends in LOW places, if you know what I mean!”
************
Ah, you mean the plumber!
Mike S:
“… watch that fat and cholesterol.”
***********
I can’t help but watch it, it’s all around me!
Gyges:
If you deficate in one hand and wish in the other which fills up first?
defecate
Mike and Gyges:
I test it all the time.
And I have read Kant, Hegel, Heidegger, Nietzsche, Plato, Schopenhauer, Aristotle, Epicurus, Marx, Locke, and others.
So your point is what?
Silly me, just a nitwit how could I not be a progressive? Must be some genetic flaw that prevents me from seeing the absolute brilliance of Karl and his buddies. Sorry I cant join your club, the dues are too high.
An open mind is a terrible price to pay.
mespo727272 1, July 28, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Patty C:
“Ayah! Your yelling AND the turlee mojo…
… You got friends in LOW places, if you know what I mean!”
************
It could happen…
mespo727272 1, July 28, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Patty C:
“Ayah! Your yelling AND the turlee mojo…
… You got friends in LOW places, if you know what I mean!”
************
Ah, you mean the plumber!
–
It COULD happen like that …
IS,
My point is statements like “I try to keep my mind in as pristine a state as possible. So I stay away from progressive philosophical works and other such intellectual pornography if at all possible,” does not lead others to believe that you “test it all the time.”
Now I realize that it was mainly meant as a gratuitous slam against the dreaded liberals, but you have to understand that we think you mean what you say. So when you say that you avoid reading philosophers you disagree with, we assume that you don’t read philosophers you disagree with. When you say that you avoid reading them to keep your mind pure, we assume that you feel that exposure to those philosophies will somehow taint your mind. Now I don’t know about you, but it seems to me that most of us read that as “
That’ll teach me to multitask:
…read that as saying that you’re afraid of picking up some of the dreaded liberal philosophy.
As an aside, I hate reading most philosophy. It’s an aesthetic thing, maybe the translations are bad, but they (as a general rule) just don’t do anything for me.
“http://www.alternet.org/workplace/141615/it%27s_not_hard_to_be_a_job-slashing%2C_pension-grabbing_ceo_–_if_you%27re_a_sociopath/”
IS,
Another way of dealing with your corporations are not evil meme, but the CEO’s might be.
Gyges and Buddha:
I dont think “liberal”, “progressive” philosophy is bad or that people that hold those tenants are evil. Pure and simple it does not appear to work and that is why I do not agree with it. Progressive philosophy may be good for the academy as they debate the number of angles that can dance on a pin head, but in reality it does not work because of human nature. Any true philosophy must take into account mans nature. You cannot turn a dog into a cat by virtue of social engineering.
Any philosophy that tries to mold man into a certain preconceived image of what man ought to be is going to fail. And to keep trying to change man into some notion while ignoring the consequences is, in my mind, evil.
And as far as having an open mind goes, may one assume then you are open to all depths of depravity? Child molestation, rape, murder, etc.? My guess is you probably are not, so why are you against these things? I further assume that neither one of you has partaken in any of these acts nor would you ever, again why wouldnt you if you have an open mind?
My guess is that you dont because you understand these acts are harmful, both physically and mentally to an individual.
Mike Spindell:
your link did not come through.
“By the way the deal was when you tripped to always have an uptight, straight friend around who wasn’t tripping, as a safety precaution.”
ah, just another example of liberals needing to be baled out after doing something stupid by a conservative/capitalist.
Mike Spindell:
I actually may have stumbled on the current problem. All the trippers from the 60′s relied on their conservative friends to bail them out of trouble. It carried over into adult life and that is why we have what we have. We can spend and spend to our hearts content and the capitalists will bail us out.
Maybe a dissertation for a sociology doctorate?
“And as far as having an open mind goes, may one assume then you are open to all depths of depravity?”
IS,
Poor riposte at best. Having an open mind in the context I used it means being pragmatic and open to new ideas, it does not mean not having certain overarching principles of morality. Here are mine, once again:
“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.”
“If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am for myself, what am ‘I’? And if not now, when?”
How that morality is achieved politically/sociologically requires a mind opened to the myriad possibilities of solutions to life’s dilemma’s. I think it clearly covers the
typical depths of depravity like Child molestation, rape, murder, etc.. Manifestations which have been exhibited by today’s “free marketeers” and their historical brethren.
While it is true that the psychologically healthy human being needs a moral compass, what they also need is the ability to respond appropriately to the needs of a constantly changing environment. Those humans have evolved successfully, while those who could not keep up with the changes around them, by clinging to unworkable solutions that exhibit constant failure
have fallen by the wayside.
“ah, just another example of liberals needing to be baled out after doing something stupid by a conservative/capitalist.’
No actually a way for us to give the losers around us something to do while we were having fun. You see we knew they were losers, but humanists that we are, we felt sorry for them. They hung around us because we were where the fun was. As I said before many of my friends from back then became wealthy, or highly successful professionals, but remained true to their humanist principles.
“All the trippers from the 60’s relied on their conservative friends to bail them out of trouble. It carried over into adult life and that is why we have what we have. We can spend and spend to our hearts content and the capitalists will bail us out.”
IS, now there you go again, ignorant of the facts of history.
It was a Republican “B” movie star responsible for the greatest tax increase in history and the tripling of the deficit. It was again GW Bush, who took a balanced budget and turned it into a trillion dollar deficit by giving the wealthiest a tax break, while raising taxes on the middle class. He then doubled, or tripled that deficit by getting us involved in an unjustified, unnecessary and illegal war in Iraq, to further help out his oil buddies. In the process he was responsible for the thousands of deaths and maiming of our soldiers and the hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent Iraqi’s, who we were were supposedly trying to save.
He also gave 700 hundred billion to the banks and his Treasury Secretary kept no record of it and asked for no accountability. The “free market” fiscal conservatives showed their belief in socialism for the rich in that debacle and also proved that they didn’t know how to correctly handle money by keeping detailed records.
Your heroes are just a bunch of greedy bastards whose principal interest is their own wealth, perks and status. Perhaps you are one of the wealthy, so for you that makes sense, but I doubt you’re that well fixed, which means that you are clueless as to how these crooks are robbing you. The link below will give you a clue if you have an open mind, but I suppose you’ll just find the group detailed as heroic.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/23004
IS,
I’m having a hard time reconciling your rhetoric:
“So I stay away from progressive philosophical works and other such intellectual pornography if at all possible,”
“I dont think “liberal”, “progressive” philosophy is bad…”
Which is it? Something that’s not bad, or intellectual pornography?
At some point you’re going to have to realize that when you’re talking to people who pay attention to what you’re saying you need to pay attention as well.
Gyges:
is pornography bad? I think that pornography is certainly ok I just dont look at it anymore.
Mike Spindoctor:
Reagan certainly did raise revenues to the treasury by lowering the marginal tax rate for individuals and corps. Thanks for making my point for me. I to want to raise the tax revenues to the treasury so we can take care of people that need to be taken care of and to pay for roads and bridges and police and a 600 ship navy and a 2 million man army and lots of nukes and a missile defense system so we don’t have to use the nukes. If Reagan’s little tax cut raised revenues as much as it did just think of all the money we could raise if we lowered all tax rates to about 10%.
Begala and Carville tried to spin that one in the book they wrote together, which I read. Because I think Carville and Begala are pretty sharp just in the wrong way.
Mike Spinner:
I think Bush was an idiot, compassionate conservatism is a pant load just like progressivism (read neo-Marxism).
You and Bush have more in common than me and Bush.
“Reagan certainly did raise revenues to the treasury by lowering the marginal tax rate for individuals and corps.’
IS,
So why the attempt at insulting names. Am I having some affect on you that increases your anger? I know you are trying hard to keep your mine pristine, but unfortunately you have the facts wrong. The largest tax increase in history was the Social Security Tax, that was assisted by Democratic shill and phony Daniel Moynihan. That tax, supposedly to help save social security actually was combined with mixing the funds in the general fund and not earmarking it for Social Security alone.
That way the money was a “stealth tax” increase on the middle class. Back then you only paid into “Social Security” up to an income of $72,000 annually, so the burden fell exclusively on the middle class. That was when I noticed my SS tax withholding equaling or succeeding my Income Tax withholding. That’s how you guys work, screw everyone else but me and my guys. Also too you conveniently ignored how during Ronnie tripled the deficit, which I also noted. Do you also know that now 45% of the major US Corporations pay no taxes. As I said IS, unless you are really rich, you have no concept how you are getting screwed by those you admire. It would really help if you knew history and by the way I would never buy or read a book by Carville and Begala, I neither like them, nor the faux Democratic President they worked for, who was also a “free marketeer.” That’s another trouble with you IS, you assume things about people, when you can’t even comprehend where they are coming from.
“You and Bush have more in common than me and Bush.”
No, actually not. Bush literally mentioned his belief in free markets thousands of times. You guys are trying to cut him loose now because it became obvious that he ran the most inept
administration in history, which was by the way economically indebted to all the economic ideas you espouse. You can call names IS, stick your fingers in your ears while shouting “La, La, La,” but George Bush and his administration were the essence of your “free market” philosophy economically, but the concept was such a failure, as “free market” economy’s always are, that you run from it now and try to disavow the man who championed your cause.
You really do try to keep your mind “pristine” from facts and truth and by golly I think you’re accomplishing it.
IS,
This is where I get off. You’re not interested in conversation, you’re interested in insulting those damn liberals. Your backpedaling claims of innocent intent are about as convincing as the acting in an 5th grade class play.
Mike Spindell:
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, Bush was not a free market capitalist. Although he did pay it some lip service.
You think I like social security? I have to pay 15% for it. It costs me more almost than federal taxes. I pay taxes out my arse for property, state, sales. I am an indentured servant. I think both parties are full of horse sh***.
I dont want to work 5-6 months for someone else, I want to be able to keep what I make.
Corporations hire people, probably help pay your retirement, buy goods and services. If they pay too much in tax they cant do all those things. This is just elementary economics.
Gyges:
No I dont like progressive/liberal/Marxist policies you are right 100%. They dont work.
IS writes: All the trippers from the 60′s relied on their conservative friends to bail them out of trouble. It carried over into adult life and that is why we have what we have. We can spend and spend to our hearts content and the capitalists will bail us out.
Maybe a dissertation for a sociology doctorate?
me: oh don’t be stupid. nothing can wreck a good high faster than being stuck with a YOung Republican who just did not get it then and never got it and still can’t get it.
IS,
Yes we have to agree to disagree. What I do find fascinating about this dialogue though is how vituperative you get as the exchange goes along. I understand the reason for it. First of all you never read:
“And I have read Kant, Hegel, Heidegger, Nietzsche, Plato, Schopenhauer, Aristotle, Epicurus, Marx, Locke, and others.”
any of those and neither have I and I know I’m a lot more knowledgeable than you. Why the hell would I read Marx when I could talk to Marxists? Please don’t disabuse my intelligence by saying you have read these tomes, since nothing in your writing indicates erudition. Besides, if you had you wouldn’t be calling people around here progressive/liberal/Marxists. The reason is that Marx hated what you would call liberals/progressives as much as he hated capitalists. Your only understanding of Marx comes from propaganda, disguised as fact, that you’ve read and which you parrot back at people, as if you have anything more than a totally superficial understanding of economics and politics.
You have become more vituperative because you have moved further and further beyond your superficial depth of thought and you find it uncomfortable that you have nothing but the same old propaganda to debate with.
As for reading philosophers I’ve already expressed the roots of my philosophy and all they could give me is their version of how it plays out. I’ve got my own. You unfortunately really are motivated by one philosophy and that could be described as infantile, self-centered greed. While it’s possible that you have actually made your money by the sweat of your brow, I somehow doubt it. I think you inherited it and everything else you’ve accomplished from Mommy and Daddy. You have the sensibility of a Donald Trump, who inherited half the real estate in Brooklyn, in a boom era in real estate only to think he was a financial genius. His lack of same was proven by managing to go into Chapter 11 twice in the Casino business, a place where it’s almost impossible not to make money.
Then again perhaps you’re a physician, in which case I would suspect anesthesiologist or proctologist. You know those Doctors in it for the money and trying to find the easiest way to make it. This is not probable though because a Physician would give a better account of himself. Then again you might be a plumber, or other artisanal profession and a hardworking one, not willing to give up the sweat of your brow. That might have some sense to it, but my take on you, since like so many others here of your political ilk you give nothing of yourself with which to understand your context, I would say you talk of hard work but have it pretty easy.
In any event you are by my lights immoral and greedy, you’ve already said you’re not your brother’s keeper and if you feel that way you’re just plain selfish and self involved. If you profess any religion, you are a hypocrite, or don’t understand basic principles, because all of them believe in the Golden Rule and in the oneness of humanity. I wouldn’t call you evil, despite your immorality, because I just think you haven’t matured beyond the self-centeredness of a five year old. I don’t call the terminally immature evil, just pathetic.
So cheerio IS, it has been fun, I just wish you would have been more interesting, rather then parroting talking points that Rush, Glenn or Ayn would spout and exhibited an original thought process, but sadly from you that was not to be.
Mike,
You’re not missing much not having read Hegel, except some context for Kierkegaard’s wit.
Mike Spindell:
thanks for the analysis, what do I owe you? Man you were all over the place and wrong on all counts. So much for your training.
Your thoughts were to me, as original as mine were to you. Except I appear to understand why I think the way I do.
I suggest you have a beer or glass of wine or a joint and watch the sun set, cool down and enjoy the balmy sea breezes.
Mike Spindell:
“How that morality is achieved politically/sociologically requires a mind opened to the myriad possibilities of solutions to life’s dilemma’s. I think it clearly covers the
typical depths of depravity like Child molestation, rape, murder, etc.. Manifestations which have been exhibited by today’s “free marketeers” and their historical brethren.”
you call me “vituprative” when you accuse me and people like me of those acts. That’s pretty bold.
I make a couple of jokes about you dropping acid and spinning Reagans tax cuts to which you replied in kind by calling me a geek with social limitations. Fair enough and funny.
But I am pretty sure child molesters and rapist occur in all realms of political thought and not just on the right.
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